east end of london has now been completely regenerated. we bring world-class facilities. still in beijing, more people are visiting the olympic site than go to the forbidden city. if you do it right, it can give you a boost and some of these things can't be quantified. the reason it's so hotly competed over today is because people realize it's a great thing for the country to have. >> be honest, when you saw that you won the bid and you saw the beijing opening ceremony, did you think what the hell are we going to do to beat that? >> i did. that's exactly what i thought. it was spectacular. i actually think we've done it the right way. i remember having a conversation with people straight after the beijing olympics saying look, guys, there's no way in terms of the spectacular of that type, you know, we're not going to compete with that. but let's do it in our own way. i haven't seen it myself, but people who have seen it say it is a magnificent opening ceremony. so -- >> we're celebrating the olympics in london, but at the

same time, it's the 40th anniversary of the munich games. and we all remember those harrowing scenes. the slaughter of so many israeli athletes and officials. when you look at what's happening in the middle east right now, are we any nearer peace between particularly israel and palestine? but also just generally that region. >> well, it's a very good question and a difficult one to answer. i think, because i'm there a lot now. i just come back from, i think, my 85th visit now since leaving office. i think we're further along what is now i believe an inevitable process of sort of change and modernization in that region. so i think where you're getting rid of these very repressive regimes and them being replaced by democracies, i think the transition is going to be very difficult in some circumstances. i think we've got a very difficult short and medium term, but i think long term this process of change is taking

place. and i think provided we can get economic growth back in the region and provided that we can help explain to people in the middle east that democracy is a way of thinking, in other words, it doesn't -- there's a narrow minded attitude for people that are different, particularly in the sphere of religion. i'm optimistic long term. but in the short term, especially in egypt, it's going to be tough. >> everyone remembers tahrir square. it was exhilarating, people were excited. infused by the great new

the muslim brotherhood are now getting a grip on egypt. how concerned should people be about the spread of the influence of the muslim brotherhood? >> well, i think first of all, we have to understand what's going on in the region. because the comparison with eastern europe is in one sense justified and in another sense not. in the sense in which it's not is when the berlin wall fell, in eastern europe, it was very easy to see what people looked over the walls and saw western europe and say that's what we want. and there's a unified sense in the country, that's what we want. in the middle east you've got three elements, regimes that have been in power a long time but can't now really retain their grip on power. you' got a large number of people that are civil minded. badly organized. then the islamists who are numerous and very well organized. if you have the best organization, as you know in politics, you can go a long way. now, we have got to engage with

the muslim brotherhood. there's no point in pretending they're not coming to power. they have a broad spectrum of opinions. but we have to be prepared to challenge. we have to stand up for what we believe in for our convictions and principles and we've got to engage with them and help them knowing there are a lot of liberal-minded, open-minded people out in the middle east who need our support and need us to be firm about where we stand. >> the most vulnerable clearly from their rhetoric are the israelis. they feel the most vulnerable at the moment. netanyahu, the prime minister said recently, can you imagine hezbollah, people conducting with iran all these terror attacks around the world, his claim. can you imagine they would have chemical weapons like al qaeda. i then interviewed the deputy prime minister ehud barak who said this. >> it's a challenge to everyone around the world, not just israel. i think we have to do something to block it. there is a need to stop enriching uranium 20% or even to

5% to take all the enrichment out of the country. >> clearly, the growing concern in israel is iran. they believe they are enriching this uranium for one purpose, to have a nuclear capability and if they do, it could be an armageddon moment for israel. how much do you agree with israel's fear and concern about the nature of iran's threat? >> essentially, i mean, i agree that a nuclear armed iran is a devastating thing for the region. and not just for israel, by the way. i think there are two things that have got to be said here. and by the way, i can tell you my critique of israeli policy and where i think the government of israel has to do far more particularly in relation to the palestinian peace process and so on. but israel is a genuine democracy. and i think the security of israel is a concern for us all

for reasons that go beyond israel. so and quite apart from that, if you ended up with iran with a nuclear weapon, it would change the balance of power within the region dramatically. and the fact is, the problem with the iranian regime is not just their acquisition of nuclear weapons capability or their desire to do so. it's the destabilizing effect that they have in supporting terrorism and supporting proxy groups and engaging in terrorism around the region. so, you know, i think we are approaching this the right way. it's absolutely right to give a negotiated solution a chance to work. the economic sanctions, particularly the american administration are taking it tough. they're biting, having an impact. but the red lines have been laid down and they're clear. >> if israel decides to act unilaterally, which they have threatened to do, where would that leave everybody in the middle east? >> the first thing to understand is israel will protect its own interest. the israeli government i know

very well now, i mean, their first consideration like the consideration for any leadership is their own country. i think let's hope we do not get to this point. but we're less likely to get to it if it's absolutely clear as it's certainly been made by the american administration that this is a red light for us. in one sense you say look, if iran acquires nuclear capability, you have other countries with this capability, is it really going to ma earth? i think it matters profoundly in two ways. first of all, if iran acquires that capability, it's inconceivable that other powers in the region won't acquire the same capabilities. so you have a big issue with proliferation there. and then secondly, the fact is we've seen from the way iran has behaved, for example, in iraq, they are prepared to destabilize and use terrorism to destabilize other countries.

do you want that technology fully developed in the hands of a regime that's prepared to do that? i think the answer has got to be no. so, you know, don't misunderstand me, by the way. any military action against iran would be highly unpredictable and uncertain in its consequences. that's why we should do everything we can to avoid it. this is a situation where ultimately all the choices are ugly. we've got to give this process a chance to work and see where we are. >> talking about ugly choices, syria gets worse by the day. the international community is still set by differences of opinion. russia and china, not yet signing up to any kind of enforced sanctions and so on. what do we do about this? what is the way to break through the impasse in syria? because there's a general acceptance that assad has got to

go, but how is he going to go? >> i think it's very difficult. from the international community's point of view, i think we have to make it clear by ramping up the pressure all the time that this is an inevitable process of his going. in other words, it's not that we are suddenly going to lose interest or lose the appetite. that's why i think it's right to discuss things like corridors of safety that enables the opposition to operate. in order to make absolutely sure that assad and those around him realize it's a matter of time. it's when, not if. the second thing, though, because the aftermath is very uncertain. what is it we really learn, whether from afghanistan or iraq or anywhere else. when you lift the lid off these highly reimpressive regime, out comes all this pouring of tension and religious and tribal and ethnic difficulty. so if we can manage a process of change, that allows us to manage the aftermath sensibly, that's in everyone's interest.

it's easy to say hard to do, but i think that should be the rub rick of our approach. make it clear it is inevitable, he is going to go, but really focus on manage that aftermath. >> from a humanitarian point of view, if you look at what happened in rwanda and bosnia and so on, the longer this is left before people get in there, more people are going to die. >> absolutely. >> at one point is the moral compunction of the international community so overwhelming they' got to do something? >> well, what is the issue. you're right, these decisions are very, very difficult to take, as i well know. i mean, the fact is, there are 20,000 people who have died in this. what we've got to watch is not merely what happens when he goes, but what happens then after that there's this huge question going on. what is the place of religion in these societies and how do woe you make sure you create a new

politics in which you have ook, religion-friendly democracy, but also democracy-friendly religion. >> let's take a break and come back and talk about american politics. and also about gun violence. you were instrumental in britain in bringing new gun control laws. i want to talk to you about what you think about what's happening in america.

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i met tony blair almost exactly eight years ago. he was in his second term as prime minister and i was just starting out. after our first meeting, the reporter asked if we found anything in common and i jokingly replied that we both

used colgate toothpaste. the truth is, i did feel a close connection to tony blair, as i said after the first meeting, i knew that when either of us gets in a bind, there will be a friend on the other end of the phone. >> my special guest, tony blair. let's talk about american politics. nobody has a better view of this from outside of america than you. how is the special relationship in reality do you think between america and britain these days? >> i think it's still strong. it's strong because of tied history and shared values and shared purpose actually still. it's a very strong and good relationship. it always should be. people said to me, you get on with bill clinton and george bush. well, i like them both very much in different ways, but it's

partly the job of the british prime minister to have that job with the american president. >> we had an election in november. a lot of people assume this will be a very close run race and could get very brutal and bloody in process. you've been used to a few of those in your time. how are you reading the political ruins at the moment in washington. >> we don't decide your elebs and you don't decide ours. frankly, it's important for the british to work with whoever comes oit of presidential process and also i've worked actually closely with president obama in the last few years on the middle east stuff. and i have graed admiration and work well with him. >> i wonder what you thought has been his biggest challenge as president. >> that's easy. he inherited a global economy in meltdown.

and i think one of the things that people really don't understand about the situation today is that this is -- this economic crisis is completely different than anything our generation of politicians has experienced before. we are used to a periodic economic crisis with a bit of tweaking and help and this and that resolves themselves. this is different. you're talking about a situation in which you've got to go back, i think, not saying exactly the same, but back as a parallel in respect to its seriousness to the 1930s. so that's been the big challenge. >> you said today, quite interesting interview, you said how does it help to have 20 bankers hanging in the street was the phrase you used. and i knew where you were coming from there. having said that, there's a sense that the people who got the world into this financial mess have not been held properly accountable. not one of them have gone to jail. >> i would say the moment you have two strains of politics going on. politics of the anger and politics of the angst. people are angry with very good reason. by all mean, go after people who have done something wrong.

by all means, we've got to make changes in the way we regulate the system and sprv it, but understand that out of it, if you want the economy to move, in other words, if you're interested in the answer rather than the anger, a good strong financial sector is a major part of it. so for me this issue is a policy challenge. you know, it's not just a question of sympathizing or empathizing with how people feel. >> they used to say if america sneezed, the rest of the world would catch a cold. now it seems to be the opposite. how perilous is the situation when you look at europe in their totality? >> deeply perilous. i think this is the biggest crisis europe has faced since the european community was created. and it requires in my view now very dig decisions. we need kind of a grand plan in

which it's clear they stand behind a single currency. >> should it be saved? >> yes. you can argue that it should have been constructed differently, but now having been constructed in this way, yes. >> if you were still the british prime minister, would you be having pretty firm words with the germans saying come on, it's time to step up. >> i think everyone is having that dialogue. but i also understand the angle angela merkel had. she's a great and formidable politician. >> is it a bit of an exaggeration of saying in her hands, the future certainly in the short term, middle term of the whole european economy could rest on what germany does. >> i think it does rest on what germany does, yes. i understand, by the way, the dilemma. and this is what i mean by --

the problem for political leaders today is you keep coming to these forks in the road on all these issues that are absolutely buyaire, and the choices are both ugly. if you're the german chancellor, do you commit the german economy, that's a strong economy, that has done well, do you commit it fully behind economies you believe have not done well and are not performing well? that's one dilemma. the other choice, though, is do you let the single currency go, in which case you face pretty much a financial meltdown in europe. and then many years to recover that situation. so this is very tough. but i think it's urgent. you said it, you know, is it perilous? yes, it is. because i think we -- the danger i foresee at the moment is that we're just always two months behind the curve with these decisions. and we can't, i think, afford to carry on, having europeans where we don't absolutely crunch this issue down and decide it. >> let's turn to guns. there was an appalling atrocity in america last friday in colorado.

the worst single mass shooting that america has ever seen. more than 70 people were wounded or killed. huge debate raging in america since then as there always is after these massacres about grun control. when you first became british prime minister, you had to do with the aftermath of an atrocity. handguns were banned. high-powered rifles were also put into a place where you couldn't easily access them. really quite a stringent gun control was taken and was deemed to be successful. what do you think about america's relationship with guns? it's a different one to britain. the right to bear arms is engrained in their constitution. but there is a feeling that something has to happen. some that took action one of these massacres. what do you think? >> well, i don't -- you know -- look, i don't want to enter into a controversy that must be difficult for people in america

right now. a terrible, horrible tragedy. and, you know, the sight of all the parents and relatives and friends of those who lost their lives and were injured, it's shocking. but on the other hand, you know, we -- our culture was different. and in america, the right to bear arms goes back a very long way. so i don't -- i -- >> do you think that high-powered assault weapons and magazine drums capable of unloading hundreds of bullets a minute, is it right they should still be legally acceptable. >> especially at this moment when it's so highly sensitive and -- we don't have the same tradition, we don't have the same history. we don't have the same culture on this issue. >> let's take a final break. i want to come back and talk sport with you. [ bell tolls ]

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tony blair, you're looking i must say in remarkably good shape at the moment for a man of 59. how do you do it?

>> i work out a lot. i play a lot of sport now. >> every day? >> not every day. but four or five times a week. >> you're involved with beyond sport. tell me about that. >> beyond sport highlights grassroots sports to promote reconciliation or help young people off the streets and so on. along with my foundation, the work i do in africa, i have a sports foundation that gets coaches and officials for grassroots sport. we're running a tennis competition in the next few weeks and we'll have tens of thousands of kids take part. a lot of people are saying tony blair, 59 years old, a spring chicken when it comes to politicians. fit as a fiddle. we discussed that. doing a few more interviews now. almost signalling perhaps that you may be ready for another big role again. >> i would say to people, i

don't -- i'm not looking for that, and i'm not expecting it either, by the way. so usually what happens is people then say right, rule it out. well, why should i rule it out? i don't see anything. >> people assume you want it and i would suggest that you would have taken it was president of europe, for want of a better phrase. running europe. i think you would be good for that. it needs coherent leadership at the top and somebody who does know all the intricacies of all the different cultures and countries in europe. >> well, i would have done it if they offered it. but they didn't. >> what if it comes your way again? >> let's wait and see if it does. i doubt it will frankly. they have somebody doing a good job actually. no, i don't -- i mean, i feel like i've got something to say about the debating that are happening. i spent five years building an organization, both in the sboeshl enterprise and philanthropy that allows me to get out and do things. i feel with what's happening in

europe, i have a lot to say. i have a lot to say. but i'm not kind of out there, you know, searching the job application page. >> you've taken a lot of flak for iraq and afghanistan and other decisions of that nature. when you look back over your whole career, if i could let you relive one moment of success again, what moment would you choose? >> well, you rarely get moments of success. if i had two moments of success in the sense that it was a defined thing that happened on a particular day in a particular hour, it would be -- probably the good friday agreement and the peace process in northern ireland, which thankfully is still there and working well. and i just saw some people from northern ireland last night, actually. fascinating the way they talk compared to when i came into power. and the olympics.

there are some times you naturally dance for joy as a prime minister. >> i 50e78 about to interview musharraf mush. what do you think of pakistan right now? what are the things you would like to talk to him about? >> he has a huge challenge for himself and the world. it's part of the bigger challenge. how do you create proper democratic societies in which religion has a place but where religious people accept the rights of minorities and accept that democracy is a pluralistic con set. in democracy, it's really important for people to understand, it isn't about the majority triumph offing and doing whatever it wants to minorities. you actually judge a democracy, oddly enough, by as much how people who are not a part of the winning majority feel as what you do by what the win mag jorty does. i think that issue to do with religion, its place in society, that is an important element in

pakistan, and over in the middle east at the moment, i see it everywhere. and if we don't get a handle on that and we solve it, it's going to cause us profound difficulties for many years to come. >> tony blair, thank you very much. coming up, my interview with pervez musharraf. the former president of pakistan.

>> i know pakistan has all the potential to do well for itself. now at this moment it's being run to the ground. so therefore what is the cause of the people of pakistan, cause of the country of pakistan, which i love so much, i will go back, even to the peril of my life. >> new my exclusive interview with one of the most controversial politicians arguably in the world. pervez musharraf is the former president of pakistan, and he's been in self-imposed exile since leaving that post. he's now vowing to return country he says is being dragged down by corruption. and he joins me now. thank you for joining me. >> thank you.

>> last time i spoke to you, you were saying then that you wanted to go back to pakistan. you haven't made that journey yet, and yet we just heard in that clip you played that you are prepared to, as you say, to potentially risk your life to go back to pakistan. why do you say that? >> i believe there's a cause bigger than self, and this is the situation in pakistan. it's being run to the ground. while it has all the potential to do well. so therefore i thought i must go back and try to contribute again to stabilize pakistan and move it towards progress and development. >> leading figures have suggested pakistan is so unstable now, it's arguably the most dangerous country in the world. do you agree with that? >> i came under the cover of "time" magazine most dangerous cover of the world. now again yes, indeed, it's very

dangerous because of all that is happening, the economy going down, law and order. but i have a conviction that it can be set right. and that is why i want to go back. >> has the afghanistan war been successful or has it arguably made pakistan even more unstable and even more dangerous? >> well, i think it has made pakistan more dangerous now. but it is complex of issues. and the war in afghanistan, yes, are not meeting success in afghanistan. and then mishandling of pakistan itself. it's not only made pakistan go down. it's the domestic environment itself. the economy, the law and order. extremism. it is not because of pakistan. it's misgovernance within.

al taliban, all these things. >> for america, it's a question of trust. when they discovered that osama bin laden had been hiding in pakistan, they're not going to believe that nobody in any position of authority didn't know. i mean, it defies belief that somebody has notorious as osama bin laden could be living in that compound so close to military installations that nobody knew. so there's a massive breakdown in trust between america and pakistan at high levels. what does pakistan do about that to try and rebuild that trust? >> yes. that -- i totally agree with you. it is not believable.

but i personally am convinced that it is a case of negligence and not a case of pom passty. i believe that. i strongly believe that is the truth. but however, to prove it to -- >> but again, just -- are you not being generous? i mean, you say that there's negligence but not complicity. what you mean is some people must have known but weren't deliberately hiding it? is that likely? >> no, i don't think so. i don't think so. if you want to know my reasons, they say he was there for five years. that means two years was in my tenure. one thing that i have -- i am 100% sure is about myself, nobody has to tell me that i didn't know it. so for two years he was there and i didn't know it. >> you never heard a single whisper or rumor he might be? >> not at all. is it possible the intelligence agency is hiding from me? it's not possible.

the isi, the intelligence agencies are manned mainly officered by military, army, navy. and they have all, most of them have -- if somebody was hiding on top, somebody below in the second, third tier would have come and told me. this is not possible at all. and then since he was not using any communications, the only possibility of locating him was through human intelligence. and that comes through the people around. now, all the television channels in pakistan went around interviewing people. not one man came out to say that we know osama bin laden is there. they thought that there's some kind of drug baron living there so they wanted to keep away. so this is the reality. and such things happen. after all, 9/11, there were 19

people under training for six months. they hijacked four plains from four different airfields. they left the flight path and went to the world trade center. how come cia didn't know anything about this at all? these things happen. it is negligence. >> let's take a break. i want to talk to you about american politics. the election is coming up in a few months time. also about the situation in the middle east, a fascinating conversation with tony blair about how exciting and yet also potentially dangerous the transformation that is sweeping through the middle east could be for that region and for the world. ♪ [ female announcer ] pop in a whole new kind of clean. with new tide pods. just one removes more stains than the 6 next leading pacs combined

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from this danger now than we were four years ago? >> president musharraf, when you hear mitt romney, who may very well be president come november, talking of iran being the most dangerous place on earth now and the prospect of them getting nuclear weapons making it even more dangerous, what is your reaction? >> well, i couldn't call it the most dangerous place in the world, i don't know. it's a stable country. but trying to acquire nuclear weapons, i am against it because they don't need it. they don't have a threat therefore why go nuclear? i compare them with pakistan. why is pakistan nuclear? because we have a big threat. we have an existential threat. iran doesn't have a threat. why go nuclear? >> iran would argue they do have threats. they would argue threats have been made against them.

israel and others have threatened to take action. what is the difference. if israel is allowed nuclear weapons, if pakistan is. if you're in iran, ahmadinejad would argue -- i heard him say this. if these other countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons, why can't i? >> first of all, israel doesn't have a border with iran and they are very far away. and i don't think it's israel has ever threatened iran. iran has been threatening israel, as far as pakistan is concerned. if you see the indian forces, 50% of their army, navy, air force is totally matched on pakistan border. so it's a very, very different situation and environment. we certainly have a threat. we fought two wars. half of our wing in the pakistan back bangladesh because of indian bee lij rents there. >> what do you think about assad in syria?

>> i think assad himself ought to realize that this kind of killing of so many civilians and people dying, his own countrymen dying, what is the point in staying? why perpetuate one's self? >> given that he clearly has no intention of leaving, if anything he's escalating the killing. what should be done? lots of people are talking about how awful this is, but people are being reminded. tony blair, places where international communities sat back and let more and more people die until eventually they took action. isn't there a moral compulsion now to get in there? >> i think so much has happened interfering in various countries of the muslim world, i would

say, that i think external interference has never produced good results. i think whatever is happening, i would say, if pressure is put on president assad, then good sense prevails, that he will regain some part of his acceptability if he was to just quit. say if the people don't want you, if there's so much killing going on, let somebody else lead the country. direct outside interference, i think never reaches, never produces good results. >> finally, the american election in november, what are your thoughts? it's going to be a close race. people can see that now, from all the polls. who would you prefer to win? >> well, i would like to generally pakistan people believe that republicans have always been favorably disposed towards pakistan, more than the

democrats. >> so you're a romney man? >> well, no not really. i am a pakistan man. and i believe that every country has interests that they follow. so irrespective of which party won and which president, it is interest, national interest. >> but from what you've seen and heard of president obama and mitt romney, which one do you think would best suit the interests of pakistan over the next four years? >> difficult question to answer. well, as far as president obama is concerned, i don't -- >> you called him arrogant last time i interviewed you. >> yes, i remember. yes, i did. well, i still maintain that. because i think he hasn't contributed much towards

betterment of relations with pakistan or resolution of disputes between india and pakistan. in fact, maybe partially he has shown india leaning against the interest of pakistan. but mitt romney is not a trite person, so i wouldn't be able to comment on what he would do. all that i would like to say is that he must understand regional dynamics. >> well, i'm seeing mitt romney tomorrow here in london, so i shall pass on your thoughts to him. nice to see you. >> thank you very much. meineke's personal pricing on brakes.

i tell mike what i can spend. i do my best to make that work. we're driving safely. and sue saved money on brakes. now that's personal pricing.

tomorrow night i sit down with presidential candidate mitt romney and his wife ann for an exclusive interview about the economy, president obama, guns and other big issues. and then on monday a candid conversation with michael phelps who talks about fame, family, love and about the thing he craves most.

and that's another barrel load of gold medals at the olympics. >> i think that would be, for me, to be an american is, you know, it's one of the greatest things in the world for me. you know, for me, just because i've been able to grow up with everything. you know, the freedom. in my eyes this is the greatest country in the world. and, throughout my career i've been able to travel overseas and to represent my country the best way that i could. and, you know, being able to wear the stars and stripes when you step up out of the box or when you step off an airplane or when you hear the national anthem play, it's one of the greatest feelings in the world, because you know there are people at home who are supporting you and watching you. >> that's all from london tonight anderson cooper starts right now.

tonight. anderson cooper starts right now. a major new development in the colorado shooting that hints at the possibility at least that all of this might have been prevented if somebody at the alleged shooter's former university had just gotten a piece of mail in time. we're just now learning what was in that parcel and why seeing it was so vital. in addition tonight, our first look at the chaos that first responders were facing when they arrived at the theater friday. >> metro 10, do i have permission to start taking some of these victims via via car? >> yeah, load them up, get them out of here. >> police with too many victims, not enough ambulances. >> we'll show you what they were up against, all the factors big and small that spelled the difference between life and death. also tonight as we continue to remember the victims, as they lived not just as they died. tonight we speak to the mother of rebecca wingo. a young woman with a whole life ahead of her. she mastered mandarin by the age

20, raised two daughters, working her way through school, training to work with troubled teenagers. she joins us later. we begin with breaking news. al package from the alleged shooter found in the news room. at the university of colorado. he mailed it days before the massacre, addressing it to one of his professors at the university colorado's campus in aurora. it arrived days before the shooting but was not discovered until monday afternoon when police found it in the mail room. . they sent in the bomb squad, handled it by robot and x-rayed the parcel just in case. sources telling john miller who joins us now that the letter inside spoke of shooting people and included crude drawings of a gunman and his victims. do we know, john, from your sources, have you heard why this letter wasn't discovered sooner? >> well, we have a little conflict there. which is what we were told by law enforcement sources earlier in the day. and i have to say, this has be