age. okay? that hurts. and i'm 50. i mean -- i mean, i -- >> are there any marks on you? >> but you would hit a 5-year-old like that? >> yeah, sure. >> reporter: the pearls said you could never be too young for some physical pain. for example when a baby bites during breast-feeding. >> i would very gently pull their hair, enough to make them let go. >> reporter: the spankings with various objects, say the pearls, are actually done out of love. >> spanking is done out of love, they say. we discovered spare the rod, spoil a child is a message that many people still embrace. now, you're going to hear from some of them tonight. and from people who disagree with them. people like james mason, a former student at a religious boarding school, pine haven christian ranch in montana who said he was physically disciplined by a house parent after being accused of misbehaving. >> at that point he lifted me up

by my neck against the door, and held me up until i pretty much went limp. and i was subdued, and i was contained. and i was no longer a threat, as much as a 14-year-old can be to a former army full grown man. >> it turned out that accused house parent at that school still works there. gary tuchman talked with him. >> reporter: some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> what is it that you did to them? >> used pressure points to restrain them. >> what does that mean? >> you have places on your body where nerve endings -- >> show me, where on my body. >> right there. >> show me. >> right there. >> you're going to hear more from the house parent and his accusers in the hour ahead. gary is investigating another religious school. what he found is shocking.

students said they were forced to panhandle in subways and streets. watch. >> reporter: my name is gary tuchman with cnn. we want to know why you have children out here begging for money here at this subway. >> we're not answering any questions. >> very young children. there's more on that. gary's also been looking into allegations of abuse at a fundamentalist fair haven school in indiana. several students are claiming they faced corporal punishment at the hands of the pastor and school officials. here's one of the former students who said he was in the 7th grade when he said he had an encounter with with an administrator. >> he spanked me and the paddle split down the middle. whenever he would hit me, it would pinch the skin on my bottom, and bruised and bleed. >> there are other former fair haven students alleging abuse. see how the influential pastor responds to the accusations. in montana, we begin at the

school facing accusations of abuse in the name of god. here's gary report. >> reporter: here in the part of big sky country, disturbing allegations are just over the horizon, in the town of st. ignatius, montana. where the religious boarding school pine haven christian children's ranch is located. it's been run for nearly four decades by this 82-year-old preacher. are these troubled kids, or kids with troubled parents? who is coming here? >> all kind. >> reporter: bob larson is blunt, any kid who comes here is expected to behave and praise the lord. what do you try to teach these children first of all about christianity? >> that god loves them. and god is the answer of everything. he's the ruler of the universe. he made man, he made the world, he made the rules. >> reporter: but some say there's more to pine haven than christian teachings. they say there's violence.

this couple was in charge of children in one of the cabin style homes on the ranch. >> children are hurt at pinehaven. when kids won't obey, physical pain is used to get them to comply. whether it's pressure points, sometimes they were drug down a hill, sometimes they were choked. but it was used to get them to comply. i think god weeps when you think about the wrong that's been done. of course he does. >> reporter: the owner of pinehaven said these allegations are not true. >> i'm not saying they lied. i think this is their perception of what they say happened as they look back on it. and i can't answer their perception. >> reporter: james mason was a child at pinehaven, entering at age 13, staying for six years. >> first time i was choked was in april of 1995. it was in my bedroom. >> reporter: mason was then 14 years old when he said he was physically disciplined by one of the house parents after being accused of misbehaving.

>> and at that point he lifted me up by my neck against the door, and held me up until i pretty much went limp. and i was subdued, and i was contained, and i was no longer a threat, as much as a 14-year-old can be to a former army full grown man. >> reporter: melissa was also a child at pinehaven, and dealt with a very same house parent. >> he picked me up by the -- under my neck. just like at my trachea. and he's about 6'2". and i'm about 5-foot nothing, i'm maybe 4'10". and he picked me up by my throat and slammed me down on the kitchen table. >> reporter: the house parent they are talking about is named ned kent. who still works at pinehaven. >> some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> reporter: what is it that you did to them? >> used pressure points to

restrain them. >> what does that mean? >> you have places on your body where nerve ends are real close -- >> show me. where on my body. >> like right there. right there. >> so you would do it with two hands on one hand? >> usually just one. >> you would put your hands on pressure points? what was the purpose of that? >> to stop them from flailing or to stop them from hitting somebody, or to stop them from whatever behavior they happened to be doing at the time. >> could that not be interpreted as choking, an adult putting presh you on a child? >> i suppose it could be. >> do you still do that? >> no. we've been told we cannot do that. so we don't do that anymore. >> reporter: bob larsson said he was the one that told bob kent no more pressure points. >> i had my hair in a ponytail and he grabbed me by the

ponytail and dragged me up the stairs. >> reporter: he introduced us to some former students that say the accusations of abuse are not true. >> no, there was tough love. but there was nothing cruel or unusual. i mean, tough love means separating people from drugs and alcohol and bad influences that brought them to pinehaven in the first place. >> like if i wouldn't have gone there, i would have had a criminal record. i would have been into a bunch of something i shouldn't have. it gave me a better place to be. i'm thankful for it. it literally saved my life. >> reporter: but the accusations of abuse are detailed and numerous. for bob larsson, there's a reason. why do you think people are saying such bad things? >> ultimately we only have one enemy who wants to defeat the good in the world and that is a sattan. he tries to stop the works of god and cause the evil that keeps going on that will happen.

i think that he influences people. the bible says he's the father of lies, and people sometimes believe his lies. >> so you think that people are saying bad things because theye fluxed by satan? >> that is what's happening, yes. >> who are the authorities responsible for checking out the abuse allegations? who's making sure the teachers and other school officials are qualified? you may be surprised what gary found out. we'll be right back.

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accusations. it's all perfectly legal, but the question is, is the lack of oversight safe for the students. we're going to let you decide. here's part two of gary tuchman's investigation. >> reporter: bob larsson is a christian preacher. and founder of the pinehaven christian children's ranch in northwestern montana. >> i was raised that way. i don't know if you were. clean up your plate, don't waste anything. >> reporter: there are about 40 children and teenagers at the ranch right now. some have troubled pasts, others have troubled families. >> they know when they come, they sign a form of acceptance for coming, that says i understand that this is a christian program. i do believe in god. i believe jesus is the son of god. and the bible is the word of god. and i have no objection to being taught along those lines. >> reporter: but many former students have objections to what they recall was physical abuse at the ranch. >> choking was to be expected at

some points. the nerves under my chin, when i went to the marine corps, were dead. >> reporter: former student melissa said one of bob larsson's employees -- >> picked me up under this section of my throat here, and lifted me up and slammed me down on the kitchen table, and basically held me down and told me that i was a drug addict and i was never going to amount to anything. >> reporter: some former employees at the ranch say they witnessed such abuse. >> i know that it caused extreme pain, because when i saw the kids were wrenching and screaming because of the pain of what had happened. >> reporter: bob larsson says satan is behind the more than one dozen former students or teachers we talked to who allege abuse. >> they persecuted christ and he was perfect. i know i'm not perfect. the bible said you can expect this to happen. >> reporter: a longtime employee and house parent ned kent. >> some of the kids who are now

adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> what is it that you did to them? >> used pressure points to restrain them. >> what does that mean? >> you have places on your body where nerve endings are real close -- >> show me. where on my body. >> like right there. >> show me. >> right there. >> reporter: ned kent claims he does not do it anymore. but who are the authorities responsible for checking out such allegations. let's tell you a little bit more about hin haven christian children's ranch. it is unregulated, unlicensed, unaccredited, its teachers are uncertified by the state of montana. the state is required to oversee public and private schools, but not religious schools. who oversees pinehaven? pinehaven oversees pinehaven. who is responsible to make sure that the teachers are good, your counselors are good, and your kids behave? >> i am. >> reporter: larsson says he has the teachers licensed out of state, but not in montana.

which is one of many states where government has no oversight of religious schools. the montana legislature considered a bill to require religious school oversight. but this former state legislator fought the attempt to regulate pinehaven. >> the truth is, i did not know the breadth and depth of what was going on at pinehaven. >> reporter: but now former representative jeanne windham is trying to get the legislature to reverse that vote because she believes pinehaven has abused children. >> that doesn't sound very christian to me. >> reporter: larsson acknowledges unpleasant problems in the past. a former pinehaven employee was accused of raping two underage students. he pled guilty and went to prison. could trained and licensed staff have spotted clues in that teacher's behavior? could they have helped to prevent other horrifying situations such as this one? james mason said he was sodomized by another student.

>> i was raped. i never told anybody that. he threatened me with pliers to my throat and to my testicles if i would ever tell anybody. >> reporter: this is former student brian dare, who says he was also raped by a pinehaven student. >> i started cutting myself after that. i stole some wire from the shop we were working in, and would cut my inner thighs. because that was the only place they wouldn't see it. i would just cut and cut and cut. because it was the only -- pain, physical pain felt better than the mental pain that i was going through. >> reporter: two years ago, a sheriff's office detective in lake county, montana, investigated abuse allegations against pinehaven. no charges were filed. but the case files indicate only one alleged victim was interviewed. we talked to the detective's boss, sheriff jay doyle, who was elected sheriff after the case was closed. >> it can be reopened.

there are alleged victims out there that may or may not have come forward, and if they wish to come forward, and report a crime, we will look into it. >> what would be wrong if the state of montana looked over the school? >> because it is an arm of the church, it would be unconstitutional. >> you see it would make some people breathe easier, perhaps some parents -- >> send your kids somewhere else. they don't have to send them here. >> part three of gary's investigation, next. ♪ [music plays] ♪ [music plays]

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welcome back. our special report ungodly discipline continues with more in the small boarding school in northwestern montana. we'll told you of allegations of abuse at the school which is exempt from state oversight. in part three of his report, gary tuchman exposes to what amounts to a pipeline between five counties in illinois and montana's pinehaven christian children's ranch. dozens of kids it turns out from illinois have ended up at pinehaven, steered there all by

the same truant officer. it happened to a teen named cassie against her mother's wishes. now her mom wants to pull her out of pinehaven but can't. here's gary's report. >> reporter: paula of illinois is the mother of seven children. what is the name of your youngest daughter? >> cassie castill. >> reporter: how old is cassie? >> she just turned 16. >> reporter: she said her daughter was raped by a relative. and that cassie had tried to kill herself. >> she took a bottle full of pills. and she was placed into harsha. >> harsha is? >> a behavioral center in illinois. >> reporter: she said one day a truant officer from her town made a trip to that behavioral center to visits cassie and recommended she transfer to a

very different place. >> cassie called me, she was crying, she said, mommy, i just made a mistake. >> what's her mistake? >> i asked her what happened, and she says, i just signed the papers to go to pinehaven. >> reporter: paula bowen said without her permission, her daughter was then whisked away. more than 1,800 miles to rural montana, to the pinehaven children's christian ranch, and that's where we met her. what's your name? >> cassie. >> reporter: bob larsson is a preacher and founder of pinehaven. >> the two biggest reasons that kids come are broken homes, and they didn't have the normal home background and training with a dad and a mom, and failing adoptions. >> reporter: paula bowen admits she's had serious problems with her life, including imprisonment. but says she doesn't want her daughter at pinehaven because of allegations from former employees at the ranch, like denise and dave bingham, that

children were choked and hit in the name of god. >> the kids were being a ining t pinehaven. >> reporter: allegations backed by former students who said they were choked and hit, not by bob larsson, but people who worked for bob larsson. what would they do to you? >> push up, grab the neck up against the wall, lift you off your feet. >> reporter: if paula bowen was worried by what she heard, why not pull cassie out? because she can't. an illinois judge approved the truant officer's recommendation and signed a court order declaring it is in the best interests of the minor to remove the minor from the custody of the parent, guardian or custodian. you said to these people, if you're sending my daughter away, please send her close to me. don't send her to the state of montana, which is a good way across the country. >> right. >> and they said? >> she signed the papers. >> did you say she's a 15-year-old child? >> yes.

it's a binding contract. they held her to it. >> reporter: this is the truant officer. >> my job is to get kids that are missing school back in school. and then intervene with court services, court related services. >> reporter: it was charlie duke's idea for cassie to go to pinehaven. why? he believes in the ranch's religious philosophy. he also considers the founder a surrogate father. >> nothing in the entire region in the country comes close to pinehaven. >> reporter: this five-county area is very quiet, low profile. but it has the most unusual export. children. cassie is one of at least 29 children who over the years have been sent from this region to montana's pinehaven christian children's ranch. this area is a pipeline to pinehaven. charlie duke gets the approval of prosecutors and judges to make it happen. to a facility with abuse

allegations and employees without any certification or licensing from the state of montana. >> i personally know teachers that are there that are certified teachers from the state of illinois. >> but they're in montana. the point is these kids are troubled and they need counseling. >> there is no one trained to counsel them. does that bother you? >> i believe they get the counseling they need. when they have a nuclear family structure -- >> i understand they have that structure, but i'm asking you, as a public servant here in illinois, you operate by rules and regulations of the state, do you think they should have licensed counselors at pinehaven? >> i really feel like you're trying to trap me into saying something -- >> you can say no. >> i'm not even comfortable talking about it. >> you can say no or you don't know. >> i don't know. >> reporter: charlie duke says he doesn't believe the abuse allegations. but we showed him a videotape of one of the current ranch employees, ned kent, telling us this. >> some of the kids who are now adults tell us that you used to choke them. >> that's totally false. >> what is it that you did to

them? >> used pressure points to restrain them. >> what does that mean? >> you have places on your body where nerve endings are real close -- >> show me, where on my body. >> right there. >> show me. >> right there. >> reporter: they both say the so-called pressure points are no longer done. charlie duke said he would like to talk to larsson about this. >> i would like to have the assurance that that was something of the past, and not something that they condone, or would use in the future. >> reporter: the truant officer said despite what cassie's mother told us, she approved her daughter going to pinehaven. but when i asked if he went on his own to indiana to have the child sign a form to go there, he responded -- >> i cannot talk about it. it's a juvenile hearing. >> reporter: for the same reason the judges and prosecutors won't talk to us at all. cassie remains in montana. there are 40 children at pinehaven. she is one of eight from the same part of illinois. and despite the allegations,

charlie duke says if an illinois child needs pinehaven, he'll keep on recommending it. >> in my opinion it is the finest children's home that i've ever visited. >> what did the state of illinois and child welfare experts have to say about all this? >> whild welfare experts say it's wildly unusual for a child to be sent so far away from a parent. these people live in southern illinois. they're close to indianapolis. they're close to st. louis, close to chicago. which has lots of facilities for children. they say it's very rare for a child to be sent that far away. but i will tell you that the state of illinois say it can't do anything about it. we talked to the attorney general's office, the attorney general's office said it's up to the local district attorneys. they say they just can't do anything. >> you report on cassie's story a few months ago. since we originally aired the story, what's happened to her? >> a lot of unusual things. right after our story aired, anderson, paula, cassie's mother, said she was cut off from communicating with her daughter. when she called her in montana,

either they hung up the phone or they said she couldn't come to the phone. the judge in her hometown of illinois made the decision there has to be a court hearing in illinois, he will have cassie flown to illinois and he will then decide if cassie should stay with her mother. at the court hearing, bob larsson, the head of the christian school, the truant officer tells us, and paula had to tell us this information because what happens in juvenile court is not public information, she said she barely said anything, after the judge heard from the director of the facility, he never asked any questions about alleged physical abuse and he sent cassie back to montana. so cassie again is in montana after being home in illinois for a few days for that court hearing. >> gary, appreciate the reporting. thanks. gary has more on another school with stunning video. a little boy begging for money in subway stations, because it's part of the school curriculum. there are other allegations against the father and son who run the school, mistreating kids, bilking the government of

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welcome back to our special ungodly discipline. all this hour you've seen how quaer ku gary tuchman is investigating religion is abuse. allegations of physical abuse, there's evidence this school has been fleecing taxpayers at the same time and if that weren't bad enough, its students are also allegedly being forced to panhandle. >> reporter: walk down the sidewalk and turn the corner at that b.a.r.t. station, one of the bay area's subway stations and you'll see him, a little boy 6 or 7 years at most, panhandling for money. not for him or his family, for his school. this begging is in a way part of the curriculum at the same school in oakland, california. this child whose identity we're protecting looks like a

modern-day version of oliver twist. standing nearby an adult companion who is not happy we're there. >> can you tell me your name? my name is gary tuchman with cnn. we want to know why you have children out here begging for money at this subway. >> i can't answer your questions. >> reporter: we found out who the man is. he's reverend robert lacy jr. he and his father run st. andrews, the school whose children are spotted hustling for money at subway stations. why are they doing is it? where is the money going? >> if you have any questions, you can give them to me in writing. >> reporter: why can't you answer the question now? i think the kids should be home doing homework and not begging for money. yolanda bailey had three children at st. andrews and she pulled them out. >> it's just like a big slave camp. >> reporter: she was told her kids were doing fund-raising. no one told her they were

begging. >> my little brother, he told us that if we didn't make $50, we would stay there until we did. >> reporter: katherine joiner said she pulled her son out of the school, where she paid $3,000 a year in tuition. he said he was required to panhandle for hours nearly every evening. >> you got hungry, thirsty, and then bring food or water with them is this. >> i couldn't even sit. i couldn't sit down. >> reporter: those are not the only unseemly allegations against the father and son ministers. yolanda bailey said her older child was struck by the reverend lacy jr. >> he hit my son on top of the head with a book. >> reporter: her younger said he was hit several times. what did he hit you with? >> spoons. >> reporter: a belt and spoons? meanwhile, carlos said he was locked in a second-floor classroom because he had talked in class and wasn't allowed to use the bathroom. he said he climbed out on this second-story window ledge to escape. >> i didn't want to do it, so i tried to come in.

and i slipped on the ledge. and i fell. and i broke my foot in five places. >> reporter: this is a picture shortly after charlos went to the hospital. and these are the medical records. but charlos' mother said the school denied he fell out of the window. >> thank god he landed on his feet. there's no doubt he would have been dead if he had fallen head first. >> reporter: there's more to say about the school. st. andrews declared it has 195 students. the more students, the more federal taxpayer money they receive. and the school has cashed in more than $220,000 taxpayer dollars over the last five years. will evans is a reporter with california watch. a nonprofit media o that has been investigating the school. >> they say in official filings they have 195 students. your finding is how many students go to that school? >> they definitely -- under 30. at any given time.

and sometimes much fewer, as few as ten. >> reporter: is there anyone who carefully looks at the form schools fill out saying the number of students they have? >> no. >> reporter: the oakland unified school district is the entity doling out the money. >> it's very difficult for me to stand and make excuses, because it happens. >> is there a chance st. andrews will receive more taxpayer money through you? >> absolutely not. >> zero? >> zero funds. >> reporter: bark at the b.a.r.t. station. i'm taking a picture of a transaction taking place. you have no right to put that up. this is a public place. put that down. this is a public place. we're allowed to take pictures. reverend lacy told me at the subway station if i e-mailed him questions, he would provide me

with answers. so i did. but he didn't. which meant the next stop was coming to the church. i knocked on the locked door. i know there are people inside. but no one wanted to say hello. but just as we were about to leave, we ran into reverend lacy on the street. regarding these allegations about children in the subway station, about the abuse allegations, about you taking too much taxpayer money, what is your response to that? >> we're honest people. we're law-abiding citizens. we have committed ourselves to do god's service here in this community. and that's what we've been doing. that's all we have the comment to at this time. >> but no specific answer to this? >> no answers. we're praying people. if you don't mind we'd just like to say a prayer with you here right now. >> reporter: his prayers were the last words he said to us. >> gary tuchman joins me once again. is this church investigated by authorities? they're certainly not giving any answers about why they're having

these kids do this in the streets. >> the state of california is investigating the tax allegations, the federal tax allegations, and the district attorney's office in alameda county is investigating the abuse allegations. and we should also tell you about b.a.r.t., the rapid transit system. b.a.r.t. is now on the verge of making a decision how it handles soliciting and panhandling. from now on it appears you will not be able to as an adult or child to solicit in b.a.r.t. stations after 7:00 p.m. or school hours. which is key, because these kids solicit into the night. you will have to have an adult with you, you can't be a child by yourself, although in the case we covered, there was an adult there. it happened to be the adult who runs the school. >> a fascinating scene. and he wouldn't answer any questions. appreciate the reporting. up next in the special report, allegations of child abuse at a fundamentalist baptist school in indiana. former students said they were hit and humiliated by staff members. >> he basically told me to bend over and said, pull down your

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condemned the violence. employers added 160,000 jobs in july. that is the most since february. but the unemployment rate rose to 8.#%. that's because it is based on a survey of households which showed fewer people had jobs. the cdc is monitoring an increase in the number of new cases of a swine flu strain. the health agency reports 60 new cases in humans, in just the past three weeks. get this, every patient says they have been in contact with a pig, most often at state or county fairs. anderson, back to you. >> susan, thanks. our special investigation ungodly discipline continues in a moment. we'll take you to a fundamentalist baptist school in indiana. the pastor responds to the allegations next. [ male announcer ] now you can swipe...

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welcome back. more of our ungodly discipline investigation. this hour we've been looking at allegations of child abuse in the name of religion. a school in indiana are facing accusations that are hard to comprehend. >> reporter: roger is a powerful man. extremely influential and fundamentalist baptist circles. do you believe the bible is the word of god? his indiana church is called fair haven bapbaptist. and there's an academy for children and fair haven college. pastor volkman has led thousands of children and their families for four decades.

you've said children are born depraved. they're born liars. they have to be trained to be good. do you still believe that? >> yes. the bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of god. >> reporter: the bible also says, he who spareth the rod hateth his son. >> my philosophy is three swats. it should sting, but not hurt. >> reporter: it's not considered an unusual philosophy among some in the fundamentalist baptist community. these former students are now speaking out. saying what they endured was beyond, way beyond anything taught in the bible. how many of you have had suicidal thoughts? that's every one of you. >> we constantly lived in fear of looking the wrong way, doing the wrong thing. >> we were brainwashed, our parents were brainwashed. and you followed what roger volkman said. >> reporter: these former students say pastor volkman did some of the hitting. but most of it was done by his

staff. allison was in grade school when she says the principal came into her class to paddle her. >> he would call you to the front. they would pull the chair out. you bend over, grab the chair, he told you look at that lunch pail and he would pull the bad tl up. he was so tall it practically touched the ceiling. he would swing it really harold. and hard enough for you to move forward. he moved the whole chair forward. >> this is in front of the whole class? >> yes. >> reporter: jeremiah was in the 7th grade. >> the paddle split down the middle. so he started back over holding the paddle together. so whenever he would hit me, it would pinch the skin on my bottom. and bruised and bleeding. >> reporter: samuel bain was also in grade school when he said he got it from a church maintenance man. >> he base ekly told me to bend over. he told me to pull down my pants. i hesitated, because it didn't sound rith. even to a kid. we were taught not to question people. >> then he did what?

>> he laid into me. >> they say not only were they hit when they were here, but it was done with grit effort to humiliate them in front of the whole class, bent them over a chair. is that still done today and do you think that's humiliation? >> yes, it is still done today. and i suppose it is humiliation. but again, humiliation is not the big thing. >> what i'm saying to you is, god doesn't say anything about humiliation in the bible. he does talk about sparing the rod. that is mentioned in the bible. >> yes. >> so why the humiliation? why is that necessary? >> habit. >> i'm a minister, a preacher, i speak to youth, teenagers. >> reporter: darsell is a proud baptist who now lives in alabama. he said during a student mission trip to mexico 15 years ago he was forced by a fair haven administrator to keep drinking liquids after he urine eighted in the shower. >> my stomach is literally out to here. and i'm puking just over and over, just puking. one of them came up to me and

said, you better not puke again. i'm just puking everywhere, all over my clothes, all over people's stuff. they put one of the senior boys, they put his stuff at my feet. and said if you puke again, this boy is going to beat the snot out of you. i'm trying hard not to puke. they made me do that until i peed on myself. >> i never heard that story. darsell was a lot of trouble when he was in school. but i'm not saying he was totally lying about it. because i don't know. i wasn't there. >> was this something you'll investigate now? >> yes, i will. >> that was a long time ago, but probably worth investigating. >> yes, i will. >> reporter: jeremiah said he was tormented by faculty members. >> i was secretly taking piano lessons and they found out and pulled me in front of the youth group, called me a fag, queer. >> reporter: and it got much worse. he said he was repeatedly raped by a fellow student. he told no one at the church

until many years later. >> i was raped for three years straight there. and i was told it was my fault. i went and told the pastor. he asked me if i was tithing, giving money to the church at that time. insinuating because i wasn't giving money, that i was violated. >> plain lying. that did not happen. if it happened, i would be the first one to drag the person to the police station. >> reporter: and then there's lois crosby. she started at fair haven more than three decades ago. she said the brutality was too much for her. >> i've actually overdosed twice. the second time i overdosed, even the doctors don't know how i'm alive. >> all seven of your former students said that they either thought or tried to commit suicide. >> they're either lying to me,

and how does it make you feel. >> it makes me feel bad but i don't think it has anything to do with us. >> there are these former students. tell me your name. >> frank. >> katherine. >> katherine and frank, two of pass the pastor's children. >> i haven't spoken to him in 25 years. he won't speak to me. >> frank says his father once got mad when he didn't finish a ten-mile run. >> he stripped me down, got his belt out, and he spanked me until he couldn't move his arm anymore. and i was black and blue from my lower back to the bottom of my legs. as a punishment, i had to wear a dress in day camp for the entire day to show everybody what a sissy i was. >> you ran cross-country and he said what. >> i was never to lose a race, ever. and took me downstairs, lifted my skirt up and beat me with a belt. >> we did nothing but try and help frank and his sister. we hadn't planned to adopt

anybody. >> but you did. what i'm wondering is that true what they were saying. >> no. we spanked frank. but as far as, you said sending him to school in a dress? no. >> the pastor feels his children and these former fair haven children are malcontents who are embellishing. he said most fair haven students are happy. but these students said the pastor leads a church that has ruined many lives. >> i don't know what love is. i don't know how to love somebody. >> before we left, people who work at the church gave us a souvenir. a souvenir they say they're proud to hand out to all visitors. it's one of the paddles they use to strike the children. it comes complete with words from the bible. it says fair haven paddle, and then this verse from the book of proverbs, he that loveth his son chastenneth his times. did you ever have any doubt in your mind that you're not faithfully and accurately

following the spirit of god's word in the bible? >> no. >> at fair haven, the traditions will continue. >> gary, has anything changed at fair haven since you originally reported the story? >> for the next eight or nine weeks, weekly protests were held outside the church in indiana. people from inside the community and outside the community. sometimes as many as 200, 300 people is asking for changes inside the church. but it doesn't appear those changes have come. there was a letter writing campaign, i got letters from the congregation, with the exact same phrases, saying there is no paddling at all that takes place and say the paddling is fine. that's what god wants. one of the pastors of the church accused of a lot of the paddling, he writes a comment in the newsletter criticizing our reporting, and criticized reporting that we've done on this show, the continuing reporting on bullying. he says, quote, what they call bullying is a part of growing

up. >> gary will continue to follow up on it. thank you very much. we'll see you again one hour from now at 10:00 p.m. eastern. "piers morgan tonight" starts now. america's golden boy, ryan lochte, what it's like to be the world's most eligible bachelor. if you could choose one famous woman to spend the rest of your life with. >> blake. >> the man behind the champion, ryan's father and coach -- >> last night it was a different emotion. my heart went out to ryan. >> plus, the need for speed. what happens when the fastest woman in the world sits down with me. >> i'm calm. i'm focused. i try not to let the pressure overwhelm me. >> and two of the biggest exports to america, katherine jenkins, what he thinks about ryan lochte. >> he's gorgeous.

of course. >> and the voice of england -- ♪ >> a knockout performance by singing sensation alfie bolt. this is pierce morgan tonight. good evening from london, where the first four weeks of the 2012 summer olympics are coming to a close, the drama, controversy, emotions. as nfor the medal count, u.s. ad china are battling. american swimmer ryan lochte a gold medal winner, heartthrob and it's his birthday. he'll join me in a moment. and the fastest woman on earth. ryan, how are you? >> i'm doing good. >> congratulations. >> thank you. >> you just ruined a lunch date i had. it wasn't really a date. it was a