satiri now, as -- is washington finally getting the message? over 4 million of you find out, 1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms. >> and the gun advocate pushed me to say this to him, you're a stupid man, aren't you? that guy is evil, but there is no way that that guy is crazy. >> and arianna huffington, on

what has to stop it. >> this is "piers morgan tonight." good evening, the boss is considering taking executive action, tonight, i will reiterate once again exactly where i stand on guns, i'm in favor of a nationwide ban on military-style assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. it would require them to have background checks, on those buying guns, and we know they go a long way towards at least trying to stop the deadly toll on the gun violence in america. but tonight i'm talking to a man who does not agree. things got pretty heated the last time he was here, take a listen. >> it seems to me that you're

morally obtuse, you seem to prefer being a victim than to prevail over the criminal element. i don't know why you want to be the criminal's friend. >> what a ridiculous argument. larry pratt, we've invited him back, welcome back to you. >> and thank you for having me. >> why did you agree to come back. >> well, i thought maybe we could help you sell some more newspapers. >> more newspapers. >> increase your viewership. >> why, we're a television channel, you're aware of that. >> oh, i'm sorry, yes of course. >> if you were in a meeting with vice president joe biden tomorrow with the nra, and walmart, what would you be saying? >> that the discussion has not been going anywhere that we can tell in a productive way. we're not talking about making it so people can defend themselves precisely in these gun-free zones that have been

the scene of all of our mass murders for the last 20 years. hopefully, at some point we're going to come to the realization that repeating the same policy year after year, getting the same deadly results is only going to get us the same deadly results the next time. >> right, so your solution, if you were there in that meeting would be to arm every school, every church, every hospital. everywhere that members of the public could be? >> you certainly would want to encourage people who are qualified to carry concealed firearm to be able to do so in a school zone. right now, that is illegal. in all but a couple of our states and some of our institutions of higher learning. but by and large, it is prohibited. that needs to stop, because we have been using those as magnets, where all of our mass murders have been occurring in these gun-free zones. it just seems that we have a

fixation with the idea that no defense is a good defense. and that is not a good idea. >> here is my issue with this gun-free zone claim that you keep making. you're not the only one that makes it. unless i'm wrong, these mass shooters pretty well know they're going to die. i mean, they go to kill a lot of people and they know at some stage they're going to die, because all mass shooters, pretty much all of them get killed. >> and frequently they kill themselves. >> right, so why would a gun-free zone make any difference to them? >> they're looking for, it would seem in their sick minds that they can outdo the virginia tech slaughter, or some other area that may be in their perverted minds. why should we give them a neon sign that says see if you can do better than the last guy over here. >> you know there was an armed

sheriff at columbine, and there was security at virginia tech. and fort hood, 13 were killed -- 39 wounded. >> and it was a gun-free zone, no guns on base unless you were an mp. >> and it was the most heavily guarded place -- >> a lot of good that did. >> my point is, mr. pratt, even when you have a mass of well-trained people and firearms, you can still have mass murders. >> especially if you tell the victim you can't be armed, you have to wait for the calvary to get here, five, ten, minutes, or in the case of newtown, much later. >> do you know how many mass shootings have been in the united states, tby -- by definition, more than four people in the place? >> in the last 20 years -- >> i can tell you the answer, 62.

do you know of the 62 mass shootings how many times a civilian has actually taken out the shooter? >> it is probably not that many, because we make it so hard for people to be able to defend themselves. >> do you want -- i mean, hang on, wait a minute, wait a minute. you have in america 300 million guns in circulation. you wouldn't contest that. 99 laws have been passed since 2009 to make it easier for americans to own guns, to carry them in public, harder for the government to track. and what i'm seeing here is a picture of evermore relaxed gun law laws. and a spike in mass shootings. and in fact, six of the 12 worst ever mass shootings in america have come in the last five years, and the reason for citing the last -- >> that is not -- >> it is true. these are facts, these are not things which are open to conjecture, well, you can laugh, you always laugh when we talk about it. i don't mind it remotely funny.

but the point is, there is an escalation in shootings, and aurora shooting was the single worst shooting in america in terms of the most people hit in one shooting. and the sandy hook elementary school was the single worst school shooting in america. and every time these things happen, mr. pratt, and you come out, you're very vocal and are proud of what you say. if everybody had been armed, somebody would have stopped the shooter and prevented the massacres. >> you know if we would talk the way you want to talk, we're not talking about making it easy to make people defend themselves, or talk about the times mass shootings did not become mass murders, because there was somebody on the scene to be able to shoot back. nor are we talking about the federal government sponsoring a program putting guns in the hands of the mexican cartel, resulting in the death of now over 400 mexicans and counting.

and we're not even -- >> mr. pratt -- >> and we're not talking about eric holder and his justice department and their culpability in committing mass murder. >> and mr. pratt, on the point i was trying to make, in the last year, there were 62 mass shootings. not a single one has ever been stopped by a civilian, despite america being a heavily armed country. >> that is a circular argument, because it doesn't rise to the level of a mass shooting. it gets nipped in the bud, because a good guy was able to get there before the body count mounted. >> general mckrystal, he was on the rounds with a new project that he has, a book, and he said he doesn't want his family anywhere near the assault

weapons. i am particularly exorcised about. we have a clip here showing you why he feels strongly about it. >> i spent a career, carrying the m-2 carbine that fires a postpo .223 round, that is what our soldiers ought to carry. i personally don't think there is any type of need for that kind of weaponry, and particularly around the schools in america. >> why do you know more about the -- impact, and capability of assault weapons than mcchrystal. >> he may have not noticed the korean merchants who were armed

with large magazines to defend themselves against mobs. >> when was that, mr. pratt. >> during the los angeles riots, some 20 years ago. >> did you know how long ago that was mr. pratt -- let me finish my point, if you would. >> you made this point last time, it was 20 years ago, there was never anything like it before or after, the argument you're trying -- >> the people around new orleans, to be able to defend themselves. and after hurricanes in florida, it was people using these kinds of firearms that were able to defend themselves. when you have one woman in a closet who is only -- able to deter an assailant who found her and her kids with five shots that hit the guy's head, and he still walks out of the house. she was out of bullets in her six shot revolver. if there were two assailants, i

don't think she would have done so well. >> the last shootings, the ar-15, assault rifles, widely available, even in connecticut which has sposedly tough gun control laws, why do you feel so strongly that civilians, despite what we just heard from a leading general should still be able to have access to these killing machines. >> well because the general and his troops are not going to be there to protect the average american, the military, nor the police after social order implodes after a hurricane, after an earthquake, during riots. and his experience, and i very much appreciate his service to the country and the military, but he is not dealing with what civilians have to put up with in the vacuum of somebody being around to protect them. we're on our own. and i don't want to do it with a two-shot derringer, or even that poor georgia woman's six-shot revolver. i want a real gun to be able to

protect myself and my family. because it is not just likely going to be one roving bad guy. it is likely to be a gang of people. and this is not marquis to queensberry, this is the real world where we need sufficient fire power to protect ourselves. >> oh, i think you have sufficient fire power, mr. pratt because of course, you have 300 million guns in circulation. and i want to read these statistics carefully, because i heard you talking to alex jones earlier in the week. we'll talk about him later. you talked about the figures in britain, and apparently the gun fiasco in britain has been through the roof, and guns, et cetera. so i dug up the figures, the homicide figures in england and wales, compared to the united states of america, going back to 2003, i will read them quickly, i think they make a point on their own. in america, 11,920.

in 2004, 73, england and wales, in america, 11,624. in 2005, 50 in england and wales, and america, 350. and it goes on in both countries, here is my point, every time i hear you say that there is a safer country where you have more guns my brain takes me back to these figures. because in britain, we brought in a -- as you know, a handgun and assault weapon ban after what happened to don blaine, where a very similar situation happened with school children and guns. this is what happens when you take responsible action to respond to a massacre beyond any kind of comprehending -- >> first of all, the data that

you're using for the murder rate in england is a sham. there is a monumental misreporting of what constitutes murder. if three people weremurdered, it is likely to be counted as one -- >> that is an absolutely. >> see you don't know what you're talking about, i was just looking at the 2000 report, and these are your own government's data. these are your own government's data. >> how long do you think it takes the police or pathologist to count 50 bodies a year. >> you ask them for an apology, why don't you? >> you are telling me that 50 murders a year, these are simply invented statistics, and in fact the figures in britain for gun murders are many more times that. that is what you're saying? >> that is what your own constabulary is saying, i don't know if you included in the litany the combrum murders in

which 12 people were murdered. it is on the west coast of england. >> don't be patronizing. >> 50 murders in 1945, 39 in 2011. you -- >> no, you had 970, i don't know what you're talking about. >> this is complete nonsense, mr. pratt. >> you are stating -- you are telling me on cnn that we had how many gun murders last year? >> 970, and you have a violent crime rate that is the fourth highest of any country in the world. >> mr. pratt, you have just propag propagated an absolutely. in 2011, there were 39 gun murders in new england and wales. >> they're published just after our interview. >> there were 39 gun murders in new england and wales.

>> you're whistling past the graveyard. >> no, you're lying, so that americans who may be tempt to do buy in to the terrible game -- you know what, more guns, less gun crime, less gun murders. it is a fallacy, it is based on lies. you just propagated another lie, 39 gun murders in 2011, in england and wales, you have added -- it is outrageous, what you do is outrage. >> it will be a little too late to buy your insurance policy. >> let's take a break and talk more about this. try and stick, if you can, to facts and not lies, that would be very helpful for the tenor of

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we will not give them up, do you understand? do you understand that is why you are going to fail. the republic will rise again when you attempt to take our guns. >> what do you make of mr. jones performance on the interview? >> well, it seemed that you had improved your demeanor quite a bit from my own experience with you, and i congratulate you for maintaining it during that whole interview he maintains that americans need to be heavily armed. the threat of the regime coming from your own government, the threat against the people. do you believe that? >> that is what our founders believed. that is what is important that is why we have the second amendment. as our bill of rights, our ten amendments are designed to limit what the federal government can do. that includes the second

amendment, ensuring the right of the american people to keep and bear arms >> as you know, that applies to a well regulated militia. >> you are going to loose that argument. the courts agree that was the militia act of 1796 which required all able body men to own a military rifle so that they would have it at the ready were they called up. to is -- that is the militia act that required able bodied men to have that at the ready if they were called up. >> how many guns do you want in america mr. pratt? that is not for me to decide. that is for individual americans to decide. >> do you think every american should have an ar-15? >> every american should be able to get an ar 15. that is their choice. >> what are you going to do if president obama wins his battle and brings in new gun control legislation?

>> well, he is not going to do it by legislative in my opinion. what i'm concerned about and have been concerned about, since even well before the elections is having seen the president rule by executive order where he has no authority in other areas, i can see that he would just go ahead -- and the vice president has hinted at an executive order that moves toward their gun cone troll agenda. that, i think changes the game and throws into question how legitimate the federal government is. and i would advise mr. obama to consider what happened to george the third when he was doing similar things against the american colonists >> he hasn't banned the importation of ball and powder yet. that was one of the contributing elements to our war for

independence. and george the third as you probably know, was so stressed by the loss of his famous favorite colony that he ended his days in a nut house, and i wouldn't wish that on anybody. >> when i talk to you mr. pratt, i always look for some sense of humanity that you could react to the sandy hook massacre in the way that i do and many other people did. and i never see it from you. all i see is a very determined attempt to make sure the only outcome is that the gun manufacturers sell more guns and sell more ammunition as we saw in december record gun sales and record ammunition sales. >> i would ask you, where is the humanity where is the humanity where you tell them they must sit there and do nothing. and wait for a bullet, is that the humanity? >> the humanity was being able to do nothing during the massacre.

that was the lack of humanity. and that is what we're trying to rectify. and you know what? i know this will come as more lies from larry pratt. but it is entirely possible that the house of representatives will approve a bill by representative steve stockman to do away with the gun-free school zones. >> and you would be happy with that? >> you are a good guesser yes, sir. >> where are they going to put them? >> well, when people carry a concealed firearm one doesn't know for sure and the element of surprise remains with the person concealed. which means that somebody thinking of doing something horrible doesn't know which person or persons might be able to arrest him. to stop him, and that is why our jurisdictions that have easy access to concealed carry firearms enjoy lower murder

rates than say the gun control mecca of chicago, which does better than one murder a day. >> you are a very experienced man in your field. you have run your operation for a long time and people take you you are a leading member in the gun rights lobby. i'm going to give you one more chance before we finish to say how many gun murders you believed were in england in 2011. >> more important than the number of murders, and it doesn't matter how a murder is committed. so i'm not going to really care about -- >> well, can you repeat the number of gun murders that you said earlier? >> the data we have seen was 970. that pales in significant to your crime rate overall. the rapes, the muggings, the beatings

>> everyone watching can google and go to the home office site in england and wales and check that figure for themselves and when they see the accurate of gun murders in my country was 39 in 2011. and the figure in their own country was 11,000 >> your data are sham. >> as they say, they can check it for themselves. >> check out the sham data my friend. that is great. >> you are no friend of mine. thank you for joining me. >> next up, two people who lost loved ones in aurora. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] some day, your life will flash before your eyes. ♪

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in colorado today, the preliminary hearing for accused shooter james holmes ended with these words, he intended to kill them all. joining me now, those whose loved ones were killed in that shooting. also, his son also died in the attack, welcome to you both. i would like to ask you for your reaction on larry pratt, the first time i interviewed him i found my own blood boiling when i hear the less crime, more guns argument. but what did you think?

>> i definitely think piers that more guns are not the answer. because, that puts that many more guns in the hands of people who have mental illness and it becomes a fear factor for people nationwide. >> tom, you lost your son in an appalling massacre. the worst single shooting in the history of the united states. when you hear somebody like larry pratt saying that the only way to ever deal with this is to plunge more guns into circulation what is your reaction to that? >> i struggle with it. a, i wonder what he would think if he was in my shoes and think about the scene and we have a good understanding of what the scene was like that night and only the people that were in there can really know. and i think that we need to recognize that. but he was -- there was smoke, people couldn't see, he had an automatic weapon, he had an

automatic shotgun, two revolvers that didn't need to be reloaded so if somebody -- they are not going to walk in with an assault weapon. they are going to stand up in the fog and shoot at him. he had balli si tic equipment. if there were ten people in there and people started running around you might have had 15 or 20 people shot from friendly fire. i think the answer, the word assault meant that it was a felony. i think these things are called the wrong thing i think they should be called murder weapons. i think we should say if you have one you have to give them back. they will ban the assault weapons but then they work the stats in their favor. because everybody has already bought -- it is almost like y

2-k, when everybody bought new computers and you had the tech bubble burst, because they bought what they were going to have anyway. >> you have raised a good point. you have to do what happened in britain and australia. which is after these outrages, they bring in a ban and they mean it. you can't carry one or own one and if you haven't handed it in and you keep this weapon then you go to prison for a long time and that is the only way that you can actually enforce a ban. jessica, this is such an important debate that suffered so terribly after these massacres. and to america, i think, and the very soul of america. when you hear this argument all comes down to a right to bear arms and the constitution, what do you think of that argument?

>> well, seeing as it is this will be my 4th time with gun violence, in just the short you know couple year period, it is -- um, i don't know how to put it is definitely you know, people need to understand, what the different types of guns are. we don't need these semiautomatics that can shoot 8 bullets a second. >> i mean, tom, final question for you. have you heard yet any coherent argument, why anybody needs these assault weapons, and because like in aurora, and also like a magazine that can hold 100 bullets? have you heard any good argument? >> absolutely not. again, i think these things are

just to kill people. if people -- i think we need to be careful of people who want to have weapons that can kill people. honestly, if i was a police officer, i would ban together and say look, you take these weapons off the streets or we are not going to protect you anymore. because those people, my son died but those people are out there every day putting their lives on the line and we need to support them. >> you make another very good point. >> thank you both very much. >> thank you. thank you. >> when we come back. what is the truth about the second amendment and what is what is its original intent, and what can president obama do. [ female announcer ] research suggests cell health

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>> the president is going to act, the executive action that can be taken. we haven't decided what that is yet. but we're compiling it all with the help of the attorney general

and all the rest of the cabinet members, as well as legislative action, we believe was required. >> vice president biden. no matter what happens, the issue will end up in the supreme court. with me now, my guests. senior legal analyst, jeffrey tubin, and constitutional attorney, page. obviously a big day tomorrow with joe biden meeting with the nra and walmart and others. in the end, this has to get through congress and it also could be affected by executive order by the president and ultimately, i guess, facing an overall sanction from the supreme court. where do you think this all ends up? >> there has not been much discussion about the challenge that has almost been inevitable.

a lot of the revictim -- restrictions that have been discussed will have trouble getting past the supreme court. the supreme court has really emphasized that the lawful possession of firearms, in this case, handguns, is something that the constitution protects, with very clear language. >> it is a legal quagmire. there is no other word i can use for this. for a long time. the interpretation for the second amendment not applying for an individual and that is now being used firmly as their right to have any arms that they like. >> you have been talking about how the conservative movement in this country has deregulated firearms in congress and it is true the courts true. gun ownership is now protected

by the second amendment. that is true. what guns are covered is unclear. the case you're talking about from 2008 is about handguns in the home. the question is what about larger weapons, what about outside the home? the dangerous weapons can still be prohibited. >> an ar 15 that can unload 100 bullets in a minute is a dangerous weapon under that category. >> and i think you would probably win in the supreme court, but i don't think anybody can be sure. >> interesting point was raised by kennedy the other night. the second amendment said it should be revisited every 20 years to see if it is still appropriate. is that true? >> well, jefferson was coming back from paris when the bill of rights was introduced and adopted by the house.

corresponded about a bill of rights. he mentioned freedom of the press and freedom against standing armies. doesn't mention fire arms. in those documents, he talks about protections against standing armies, which was the initial intent behind the right of individual americans to own guns, partly because we thought, due respect, that a british standing army had led to corruption and european military establishments were ultimately bad for the course of a republic. the most important takeaway from thomas jefferson if we're going to bring him into this, he was a gun owner, he was a hunter and believed in being able to own a gun. here were the terms in constitutional thought, and jeffrey can check me on this. he once said to ask a country to be governed by a constitution

that was passed in previous years is like asking a grown man to wear a child's coat. >> yeah. >> that without what would become the living constitution idea, it became the most awful of jeffersonian things, irrational. >> but here is the problem, then it comes down to the supreme court, doesn't it, jeffrey? because they are the authors revisiting the constitution. and as we saw in 2008, actually, in my view, they have been dangerous. >> well, they have been what they have always been, which is political. they reflect the presidents who appoint them. george w. bush, by replacing them, give gun owners more power. that is why elections matter. presidential elections determine the future of the supreme court. >> you see i would ask this one

question, bill clinton raised it today. he said i grew up in this hunting culture, but this is nuts. why does anyone need a 30-round clip for a gun, and i say why would you need one anyway? and if you start from that premise, why does any civilian need them? the answer is, they don't. >> i grew up not far from where bill clinton did, i grew up owning guns and hunting. and i have absolutely no tolerance for the idea that the military-style weapons should be loose in a civilian population. >> gentlemen, going to leave it there. but thank you very much indeed. when we come back, she says that america may be at a tipping point on gun control, arianna huffington, on what it would take to stop the killing. alli can help you lose one more by blocking some of the fat you eat. feels great. [ male announcer ] simple. effective. take that, 50 pound thingy.

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will commence again if you try to take our firearms. >> holy. [ bleep ] >> we can't even begin to address 30,000 gun deaths that are actually in reality happening in this country every year because a few of us must remain vigilant against the imagineary rise of hitler. >> he was talking about that and guns in america. joining me now is arianna huffington, editor in chief. where was it when you heard or saw the alex jones interview? >> well, actually i was here. i was in las vegas. and i -- i was actually here,

you know, where you find me right now. the consumer electronics conference. and it was absolutely stunning, how stressful is all of this for you, piers? well, it was stressful, because the president made it clear, i am staying in america. this has gone down badly with alex jones and very well with my friends in england. i am not being deported, freedom of expression won the day. but i mean there is a serious point to this, arianna, you know, you have been very vocal about guns, and we work in a city that has tight gun controls and is very successful with the tight gun control. what do you make from this persistent claim from the nra and gun lobbyists, that more guns means a safer america? >> well, it is first, an insane claim. and what is different this time

is that the american public is not just going to put up with more delays. you remember, after the shooting, the first thing that the white house press secretary said is that this is not the time to discuss changes in gun laws. and basically, the american public in many ways, through social media, and through what you and many others did in mainstream media, made the point that no, we are not going to wait. and i think as a result, we're having progress. but the president set up the task force on the joe biden -- today we had the meeting that included walmart, which is incredibly promising. you know, walmart is, after all, a company that caters to families, and families are the ones directly affected by our insane gun laws. and also, going back to 2008,

actually walmart participated. and in the coalition of mayors against illegal guns. so there is a precedent here. >> i mean, the big problem it seems, to get anything through congress in terms of new gun legislation is going to be a very tough thing. because many of the republican congressmen have made it pretty clear they're not for any kind of gun control in extension to what is already there, in existence. and the nra exerts huge pressure on these congressmen and women, and basically threatened them, you know, we can get you out of office. >> but you know, when you have somebody like general stanley mcmcchrystal, this is not me or you, or any kind of person who can be dismissed.

or any parent that can be dismissed because they're being too emotional. i mean, this is a former general, and it is getting a little harder for them to counter the growing momentum. i'm not saying it is not going to be a very, very tough fight. but there seems to be an approaching tipping point. >> john stewart gave a 20-minute salvo against the gun rights lobbyists. >> an epidemic of gun violence? we can't, our hands are tied. we can't do anything. we are a nation of overreactors to everything. we have step by step child-proofed this entire country. 20 years ago a guy through a rock and hit a windshield, and every overpass, it is like a giant trail. football stadiums have giant nets behind the goal post so you don't get hit by the ball you're

supposed to be watching. we can't do anything about this? >> i mean, he, i think, reflected the frustration of so many who want just these assault weapons off the streets by pointing out the absurdity of the hypocrital position by the gun rights lobbyists, which i can't go to walmart and buy six packets of sudafed, or chocolate or cheese because it is bad for my health, but i can load up with assault rifles and go and commit an outrage. that is legal. >> and it has nothing to do with the second amendment. because so many, including many conservatives have said that it was never the intention of the second amendment. so there is something that happens, piers, when we are living in tough economic times that makes people irrational about security. and that is also what we are

facing at the moment. i mean, there is a lot of fear in this country. and a lot of it is fear of the future. and fear of unemployment. and in moments like that we often see that kind of desire, to cling to something like guns as a way to -- to guarantee some kind of safety in the future. >> i couldn't agree more. let's turn briefly to what you're doing in las vegas. you're down there at the big gadget extravaganza, and you have a hot new app, i hear. >> well, we're here for the consumer electronic show. and there is a tremendous emphasis here, piers, on digital health, on the desire of many consumers to take control of their own health. and this has launched an app called gps for the soul. which basically, as a result of the medical technology in the app gives you a reading of your

stress level, your heart rate variability. and then you can create a guide that consists of all the things that help you get back in sync. you know, pictures of your loved ones. your baby, your dog, and music. prayers, poetry. and then you can share guides with friends. and the idea behind it is to increase our awareness around our stress levels. because we now have incredible scientific evidence that stress is the real killer. >> i wish i had had that app on monday night in my interview with larry pratt. >> i wish. >> it was very exciting, great to be there, enjoy yourself. >> it is, and great to talk to you, piers, and thanks for your campaign. >> obviously yes, and we'll keep going. thank you. and we'll be right back. with the spark cash card from capital one,

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for anybody who missed this, i want to turn to the good news i got today from the white house, i wouldn't be deported, well, not yet anyway, you may know that alex jones is petitioning for it for my views on gun laws. jay carney said let's not let arguments over the second amendment violate its first. the second amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, however, the constitution not only guarantees the right to bear arms, but also guarantees free speech. fundamental to our policies, am