>> breaking news on that stand off in alabama. a young boy held hostage in a backyard bunker. >> he has been like a time bomb waiting to go off. >> and the nra face-to-face. >> we must do something. >> we are both gun owners and we take that right and the responsibilities that come with it very seriously. >> there is only one thing that will stop the next copycat killer and that is lawful self defense in the schools. >> also to that. police chief and my interview

with joe jackson. he speaks out as he rarely has before. >> couldn't get to them like they should have. >> piers morgan tonight. >> good evening. we will get to the gun debate in a few moments. another daily reminder of why this is so important. and a student on the run after an attack in a phoenix office building. we begin with breaking news the hostage crisis in alabama. a 6-year-old boy is being held hostage in a backyard bunker after the man apparently shot and killed the driver. this is exclusive video.

>> joining me now are two of the suspect's neighbors, welcome to you both. ron da, you know this gentleman jimmy lee dikes, he is 65 i believe. you have had concerns about him for some time. tell me why. >> well, he's just strange. i sold him the property about two years ago. and i'd cleaned it out very nice. trimmed all the trees and treated him. after he moved on the property he put up a barbed wire fence and cut down all the trees. like he needed a clear view of things.

so i pretty much avoided him. heard a lot of rumors and a lot of thing that is went on. but like i say, i tried to avoid him. >> rhonda you had an incident involving your dog which was pretty terrifying. >> yes, sir. i live directly across from the -- from him. and as a matter of fact, the video that was aired, that was taken by my son. in my front yard. and i made it clear as soon as he moved in that any animals or people that came onto his property would be killed. and he took one of my dogs went across the middle part of the road, and it was a 125 pound dog

and he took a led pipe and he beat the dog until the dog was so badly injured that it died several days later. but that wasn't enough for him. he felt the need to stop my husband and he bragged to my husband about having beaten our dog to death. and said if that was what was going to happen to any one or anything that came onto his land. i got the animal cruelly people out there. they were out there within 24 hours and i was hoping that would settle him down but it didn't. he just got increasingly more bizarre. he spent most of the last couple of years moving concrete blocks around and digging. constantly digging. and moving dirt.

>> and casper, did you see him with firearms or were you aware of him having firearms? >> i was told that he had firearms and i know of a party that he had shot at. also the day of the incident i was going uptown and i came by and saw the school bus parked there and saw him going over the fence. but i didn't pay attention whether he had a gun. by the sound of it, i didn't get to the middle of the city before he shot the bus driver. >> as far as him -- >> sorry, after you. >> go ahead. >> no, as far as him having weapons, he had two weapons that he always carried with him. he always would have a rifle, sitting near him and a shovel. he almost decapitated one of my

dogs with his shovel. he would i work late i would come home at almost midnight and he would be patrolling his fenceline with his rifle and a flashlight and he would shoot at anything that moved. any sort of even a rabbit a squirrel a bird, there was not to be anything inside his fence. and i was very concerned because when he shot, it was always towards my house. there was an incident where i was outside with my 6-year-old granddaughter and he saw that i was talking to a neighbor and he brought over a deer stand and put it over the fence and sat on it with his rif in his lap watching us.

and we went inside and stayed inside. >> before you were telling me, from what you have been telling me, a scary individual. from what we hear he was very anti-american and anti-government. building this extraordinary bunkker. he had arms and so on. were you surprised or shocked when you heard what happened? >> no, i wasn't. >> not at all. >> a little over a month ago he shot at a friend of mine with his wife, baby and mother in the truck. and the dale county sheriff came out and the man told him he didn't have a gun. and the sher ifs didn't even look for the gun. if they had looked for the gun, they would have found it. >> that is the whole thing, this man has been an accident waiting to happen.

he has been a ticking time bomb. but we live in an uninincorporated area. unless you have enough witnesses there is nothing that you can do. >> thank you very much for providing so many fascinating details about this. i appreciate you for coming on the show. >> you are quite welcome. >> senate gun hearing nr are a advocates all in one room addressing one of the biggest issues today. joining me now, a good friend of gabby giffords. welcome to you both. debby, a very, very powerful moment. not just gabby, what she said, carried huge resonance. a call to washington's politicians.

this is the time you must act. what was your reaction watching your good friend? >> well, it was pride and you know my heart was full. she spoke with conviction and she was resolute and determined to use the ability that she has in her strong and clear voice. even with the bravity with her voice. the moral issue to do this for the children. >> this is a clip from today. >> we must do something. it will be hard but the time is now. you must act be bold, be

courageous americans are counting on you. >> it really was incredibleably in pressive and effective and she made the point that she can't really speak that well and it reminded everyone of the hideous injury she sustained. both her and marketly are gun owners and they used to fire at an nra range. they believe that enough is enough. how do you see this playing out? is there a chaps of say a renew al of the assault weapons ban? >> well, i think we have a realistic chance at getting some common sense reforms passed. i'm a glass is half full person. but it is not just gabby's strong voice and mark's strong

voice today. a had a round table here in south florida today. with ten nra members and two a person they were supportive of universal background checks and making sure that we deal with this in a common sense way. they said the nra doesn't speak for them. and in the opinion of so many, the nra proved again that they are a fringe group now and we need to have americans from all across spectrum come together and really give the moral authority and the courage that she tried to convey today to legislators in the house and senate. and rome wasn't built in a day. we are not going to be able to do what we need to do to dream up the answer to this problem.

but we need to make sure that every transaction of a sale of a gun has a background check attached to it. >> that we keep the guns out of the the hands of those that they don't belong. >> you are in charge of the bliss in baltimore and and it is a pretty violent city. what was your take away about what you may feel about action being done? >> my jurisdiction surrounds the city of baltimore. as you stated. the city has seen significant gun violence. i thought today was a long hearing.

nearly 40% of gun transfers are down outside of that process. i think these and other measured taken will make this a better place. >> i want to play for you a portion of the head of the nra that he doesn't believe in mond tri background checks that is not what he said in 1999. >> we think it is reasonable to provide mandatory instant criminal background checks for every sale at every gun show. no loop holes for anyone. >> there we have it. in his own words the man is a

shameless hypocrite. there he is in 1999 endorsing a mandatory background check and now he endorses the opposite. it is hard to escape that it would impact on gun sales and gun profits. >> that is right. the nra is nothing more than a voice for gun manufacturers. they are not a voice for sensible solutions or the vice of reason or the majority of gun owners. at the end of the day, we have to make sure that we do things like what gabby and mike are proposing. we can solve this problem, i agree with them we have the opportunity here. this is going to need to come

from the grass roots here. in order to give the members from tough districts where the nra is powerful the courage and the ability to cast the right vote. we are going to need americans from across the country to let their legislators now that they want us to do something and to do something now. >> we need politicians with guns who are going to stand up and say i'm going to have my voice counted. >> thank you both very much indeed. >> thank you. >> coming up next, tom arnold my interview with michael jackson's father. fascinating that is coming up later on.

we will defend our people and our values with strength of law. >> we will defend our guns. to suggest that arm wrestling might be an alternative. >> welcome tom arnold. tom knows jokes. welcome back. >> it is good to be back. i tweeted you have a lot of supporters. i have never seen anything like it.

>> you do a show about rednecks. and people have an issue with rednecks. >> rural people is what they say. >> i toured on america's got talent and went to many states that was full of people that disagree with me on this. i can respect people's views. you use guns and grew up around guns. >> yeah. we hunted and did that. that is what we did. it is part of our culture. >> you spend a lot of time with red necks. we'll use that. >> they love the term. >> where is the compromise? where do you see a sensible resolution. this is a left and right extremity and they tend to shout the loudest and dominate the debate.

>> when i hunt, i grew up hunting with my grandpa, it is one of the best experiences in my life. but we didn't see anybody out there with assault weapons. and that is where you draw the line. if i was hunting tomorrow and a guy shows up with one of those guns, we would freak out. you can't dress up like a military guy and act like a military guy in the woods. most rednecks think those guys are idiots. they do like guns but it is those crazy people that need to blow up meat. >> i believe that too. i believe strongly in places like texas people assume that they would disagree with me or the president or who ever it is

that is trying to bring in a form of something i'm not sure that is true. >> the rednecks on our show, they are an extended family of 14 and they have kids. it is not all crazy time. >> you are are about to be a father. >> i am. >> and that must have you thinking about parenthood and being a father and it does change everything. >> you are more cavalier when you don't have kids. i'm going to teach him how to drink and shoot. and then it is different. guns are dangerous. i knew that growing up. me and my brothers would start searching. little boys like cars and guns. we wanted to get that thing and put it together. and one day we did.

and my dad came home and he beat our butts. and boys can't help themselves and bad things happen if thank you have stuff around. >> what strikes me as odd is nobody is asking anybody to remove anybody's guns. the president doesn't want it. nobody is talking about i want your guns. but the situation is trying to limit the number of the military style weapons. under the proposal for example, there would still be 2,200 types of guns legally available to americans that has to be enough doesn't it those doing it for sport. >> here is the problem too, the nra are a lobbying group. no, they sell guns and they do a great job. he is doing a great job of trying to scare people into buying guns.

charlton heston was holding up an antique rifle. he wasn't holding up an ak 47 and now they aim it towards kids. i wanted to get guns for christmas. if i had seen those guns, any young boy is going to want that. like they used to when they were kids flt what is the way for this, the only way through is for the gun owners of america to come together and say, we get it, enough is enough, you need the background checks and the mental health investment and the assault weapons removed and you need these things to come together. and you know what, if it saves one mass shooting from happening, and a bunch of kid's lives it is worth it. >> and at gun shows they

accidentally shoot themselves all the time. some people were going to have to take their guns away from them. when it is banned, you will have to figure it out. but most people say, we used to have m-80s. we use them for fire crackers. and if you take a bunch of regular fire crackers. you blow them up still. it is common sense. >> great to see you. "my big redneck vacation." >> thank you man. >> coming up next my interview with joe jackson coming up.

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♪ oh baby give me one more chance ♪ ♪ won't you please stay back in your heart ♪ >> it has been three and a half years since michael jackson died. willions loved him. joe jackson rarely gives interviews but he is going to give one tonight. welcome. humidity every single member of

your family, and finally i get to interview the boss. >> yeah, the boss. that is great. i'm glad to have you interviewing me, because i'm going all over the world. >> everyone says the same thing about you. very tough, because you had to be. that you wanted the best for your family and you decided right from the start that you were going to be firm, tough when you had to be disciplined and do what it took to give them the lives that many of them have since enjoyed. how do you respond to that? >> during those times it is hard and you had a lot of things there in the area that we were living. >> gary, indiana. >> yes, and i had to make sure that they didn't get into trouble and things of that sort. >> what your children have told

me, is that you found it hard, because you were tough with them and disciplined. and wanted to be, you found it hard to tell them too much that you loved them. and some of them found that quite difficult to deal with. >> well, let me tell you an example. i interviewed janet and she said this. >> one time i tried to calm him down. >> what happened. >> he said no, i'm joseph to you. call me joseph. when your father tells you one time you don't do it again. to always call him joseph. yeah, it s i wish our relationship was different but i know that he loves me. >> why wouldn't you let your daughter call you dad? >> well you had all those kids

running around hollering dad, dad, dad it sounds kind of funny to me. but i didn't care too much about what they called me as long as they were able to listen to me and what i had to tell them and make their life successful. my kids was brought up in a way so they respect people, and they never was on drugs, um, never went to jail, wasn't in no gangs or nothing. they were brought up professionally and was nice, yes. >> do you have regrets that you may have been too tough on some of them. >> well, i'm glad i was tough. because look what i came out with. i came out with kids that everybody loved all over the world and they treated everybody right. you know michael, he was a nice guy, but the world don't know anything too much about michael

as far as how he was brought up. he was brought up. i mean sure, he was respected by all of the people, yes. >> tell me about the young michael and your relationship with him. >> michael was the type of kid, you know, he was a good kid and easy to learn. and he could do it like the learn that you listen to doing it. by him being that way, he was able to be michael jackson. when he performed everybody loved the way that he did it because he was that good. >> do you think it is a lack of respect because of that, they are too soft. one of the reasons i say this is kids now a days, in some cases,

and they say let's get into these things and there is no such thing as beating their kid. and they will remember that. they remember it in such a way that they won't remember what they did. >> it is not like that anymore. well, you know you can't hit a child. i interviewed your wife kathrine and she said this about you. >> i didn't think he was too tough. back in those days everybody raises their children the same. if you did something wrong you got a scolding for it and a licking as they called it. but today you can't do that. michael looked back at those times and said he was abused. >> the parents should have made sure that my kids was good kids.

made sure that they understand what i was trying to do. since michael got grown and has kids of his own he understands what i was having to deal with. >> let's talk about your life as a grand father. i want to talk to you about whether you are as tough with them. hey! did you know that honey nut cheerios has oats that can help lower cholesterol? and it tastes good? sure does! wow. it's the honey, it makes it taste so... well, would you look at the time... what's the rush? be happy. be healthy. >> announcer: you never know when, but thieves can steal your identity and turn your life upside down. >> hi. >> hi. you know, i can save you 15% today if you open up a charge card account with us.

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ever since i was born, daddy has been the best father you can ever imagine. and i just wanted to say i love him. so much. [ applause ] >> that was a touching moment for image. the heartbreak of his daughter, paris. we are talking to joe jackson and his former manager. such a public thing. very, very hard.

what could you say to her, for somebody that has been through so much? >> paris is a piece of work because, most girls are hard to raise. they are hard to raise. they are more harder than boys, but she is a nice girl and most girls take to their father anyway. but she is a good girl and you have to work with her a little bit too. >> are you as tough with michael's kids because he is not around as you were with michael and his siblings. >> so, no. they are my grand kids. i was just with them yesterday. paris wouldn't get out of the bed. prince and blanket was there and blanket was making a video of himself. >> when you see them, does it

take you back to when your kids were young? >> in blanket i see michael. yes. but they are good kids and they are being kept well and looking after them and they love their grandma. they love her. and they obey her, too. >> what did you think when you heard michael had died? >> i was in las vegas. i got a call from a fan and said mr. jackson, something is wrong. i see ambulance at michael's place and it took off and the fire department and something is

wrong. >> what did you do when you heard that? >> well, the saddest part about the whole thing was, michael tried to reach me, he says call my father before he passed. he will get me out of this but they didn't get in touch with me they said they couldn't find me. i couldn't help him. >> what was your relationship like with michael towards the end? there was a sense that he was surrounded by people that was keeping the family away. and the family couldn't get to him how they wanted to. >> that was very true. he was like, well they treated him like howard hughes. they couldn't get to him like they should have. and that was very wrong for that to happen.

but i guess that they had a motive to keep family away but i guess because they were saying to the fact that too many people were hanging around because of what we were trying to do. with this young man, yes. >> this huge concert tour that he had liped up, knowing him as you did, do you think he was capable of doing that number of shows? >> yes, i did. the reason why, there was a motive for those shows. michael was going to take that money and build a children's hospital he wanted to build a hospital for the sick kids. he needed to make sure that he had the right type of help. >> when you think about michael and the children like that.

i can't not ask you about the court cases that scand aldized his later years. >> as his father how do you feel when he was accused of abusing children? >> there is a reason why that happened. >> do you wish he had never done that? >> michael was afraid of the media. >> did michael at any stage, did his behavior ever worry you around children. a lot of people feld, here is a man in his 40s having sleepovers in his 40s.

did you worry that the perception of what he was doing wasn't good for him or his image? >> well, well piers, michael was a big old kid himself. he loved kids so much. and the things that he did have, he tried to help them to have it. >> you never saw anything that concerned you? >> never -- we knew michael we knew our son. we knew that, yes. >> let's take another break and come back and talk more about michael and more about him as a businessman after the break. ♪ i'll be there.

>> i want to ask you, do you wish you had been able to do more for michael and get him in there and get him away from the drugs? >> i tried. i tried very hard.

and many times, but i couldn't get to him like i told you earlier. they treated him like howard hughes. >> i find that a fascinating analogy. i studied his life. by the end he was completely protected. it seemed like that was his life too. >> yeah. but that is the way it was. it was hard to get to him. and maybe you know, his mother could get to him better than me. kathrine is a very good woman and i love her much and still do. and right now, they are trying to get my wife to divorce me. >> really? >> yes, but that will never happen.

the people that surround them. >> when you say, "they" joe, who are you talking about? >> the people that surround my wife. >> are are these family members? >> some are, and some aren't. none of my kids, no. they are not like that. it's other people that's around. >> and they are trying to get you divorced so they can get their hands on michael's money? what is it? >> well, they've got motives, you know. if they get michael's mother away from me or me away from their mother, right now i'm in the way. i'm the strong one. but the point is this. there will never be a divorce. i was with her last night. >> do you still love each other? >> of course. yeah. if i didn't, there would be some

divorces going on. but there will never be a divorce, piers. she will tell you that. >> she did say the same thing. >> yeah. yeah. but -- >> the problem is that michael's empire is hugely valuable and will always attract sharks. let me bring you in here. you were a business manager for michael for a very long time. you've broth some fascinating tapes. these are audiotapes. i want to go through some of this because i once interviewed michael in the late '90s and i was struck about the other michael jackson, the businessman. this is him discussing with you, i think, about a plan to buy marvel, the comic business back in 2001 or 2, i think it is. listen to this.

>> now, you actually got the financing in place, i believe, for this deal, and then came the scandal court cases and it all got put back on the back burner and made a fortune at it. tell me about this. >> he was absolutely right. because he was saying so the music -- i cannot do more than what i did. that's it. and if buy this, he was would be

the second richest person in the world. >> he understood the power of owning rights to things. >> right. >> i remember paul mccartney say he couldn't even play some of his own songs because michael had bought them. he understood the publishing rights. there were lot of reports when katherine went missing for a few days, that the siblings had fallen out with each other. what's the truth? >> the truth is, they had a big fight. i wasn't there. it would have been a lot different if i was there. you don't cut a tree down by cutting the top off of it down. you start at the bottom. >> michael's three children, how are things going to work out for them? are they going to have a lot of money or are you going to try and protect that, make sure they are not too rich too young? >> i don't think you can get too rich too young.

you can get rich and be young, young rich kids. you know, a trust is being set up for them and i think that just started just recently, you know. but they do get moneys, you know, going into a trust, retirement type situation. i don't know how much. >> let me play you one last clip of michael talking, which is very prophetic, given what we've been discussing. >> what would you like michael's legacy to be? >> i'd like his legacy to be what he wanted to be. i want everybody to care about him and to love him and keep

doing the things that he wanted to do. he wanted to make people happy all over the world. you see, piers, michael's situation -- if the world was like michael, there will never be any wars. everybody will get along. that's the type of kid he was. >> it's been a real pleasure talking to you. fascinating. you're one of the most iconic fathers in the history of american entertainment and i've never had a chance to sit down with you. you've been very honest. >> am i ending up with this now or what? >> what else would you like to say? >> i've got a documentary coming out and it's a big one. >> tell me about it. >> it's called "journey in my shoes" and the reason it ain't out yet, i'm making sure that everything is right. it goes all the way back to the native-american family. >> and what is the thesis of the documentary? >> "journey in my shoes." >> tell me what it's about. >> it's about my life, start to

finish. >> thank you. i wish we could talk for longer. it's been a great insight into your son. i'm so glad that you came on. joe, good to see you. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> listening to the tapes was fascinating and he was a complex man, michael in many ways, a great businessman, amazing entertainer, and a great son, i think. and a father who maybe got a pretty rough rap over the years. ohio, thank you very much. >> you take care, man. >> thank you. >> and we'll be right back.