the president has to negotiate, but how do you negotiate with this? >> every president with starting with eisenhower -- the president will look silly. it's -- under our constitution, if he wants to get something done, he has to negotiate. it's part of the system, it's part of the process they'll all be glad to come down and talk to him. let me just say we're delighted tonight in "the crossfire" keith ellison from minnesota and republican congress mast cory gardner of colorado. >> thanks for having us. >> i want to ask you, building on what we just talked about, literally every president since eisenhower has ultimately negotiated on the debt ceiling, including president obama. so isn't it a little silly to go out on a limb and say i won't do it, because candidly in the end he'll have to do it. >> these were the days before the debt ceiling was weaponized.

this was during the time when we would have civil conversations about the priorities of each side. now we're talking about defaulting. we have all right agreed and now we're saying -- you know i ran up this bill on my credit card, but unless you defind my neighbor and kick him off health care, i'm not paying. it's ridiculous. >> the same principle was true in the 1950s, 1960s 1990s and the last decade. every president, they don't like do it, but every president realizes until our constitution sooner or later they have to negotiate. >> but we got it done. reagan raised it 18 times, bush did it. we don't say do it our way or else we're going to wreck the whole economy. this is new, and i think that, look, politics is negotiation.

that's life. the fact is when you -- certain things you should not threaten, you should not hold a lighter over a gas can as the president said s. nobody gets 100%. a you will i'm suggesting is the -- the temperature will come down, it will be a different environment and we might get something done. >> that's not the way it happened last time. they's talk about what happened two years ago. i'm sure you remember it the way i remember it, that there was a gauche between the president and speaker boehner. just a couple days before the deadline when the country was going to default, speaker boehner walked away from the negotiations, because he couldn't sell it to the far right wing. as a result, for the first time ever, our credit rating was downgraded. it cost the people a trillion

dollars in the stock market. what is to say that speaker boehner can actually control this this time? if we wanted to negotiate, who would we negotiate with? it's clear he can't bring the 45 tea party members with him. >> i can remember time and time again when speaker boehner would come back from conversations with the white house and say things like the ball keeps moving, the goal posts keep moving, no idea where the white house was. >> isn't that negotiation? >> they're not negotiating now. >> the president would say -- >> there's an agreement -- >> now the president is saying he's not going to negotiate. and now -- the first thing the president said is i will not negotiate. my colleague from minnesota has said it was economic -- what did you call it -- >> tsunami? disaster? all kinds of things. >> weaponized the debt limit, i think that's what you want. >> yes. >> what this president has done by putting this economy.

>> let's not forget -- >> great job opportunities. this is -- we have debt higher than we've ever had before. this president is leading us down a path of economic disarmament. >> let's talk about some of the demands. this looks awfully familiar to me. a lot of these things, was -- >> like the keystone pipeline. >> like the -- approve the keystone pipeline. >> health and safety -- >> delaying obama care for a year. >> which has tremendous support. >> scrapping -- >> president obama himself has -- >> stopping the back door -- net neutrality. this is a right-wing wish list. what does it have to do with fixing our debt? >> if you think this is a right wing wish list i guess the american people are all right wing. >> i don't think so. >> they have tremendous support for keystone pipeline. tremendous support for tort

reform. look what's happening to the prices of health kafr? the president said a couple years ago that he was interested in meaningful malpractice reform, but he's done nothing. where did he fulfill the promise he made? >> between 2000 and 2006, the republicans had the house, the senate, the white house. you guys could have done something meaningful about health care, didn't do it. the democrats come in, do something meaningful about health care, wet get your cooperation at all. instead of amending the bill, you guys just want to wreck it. let me tell you, there are points where we might be able to agree. from my state, neither democrats or republicans are a fan of the medical device tax. why don't we talk constructively about getting health care for the american people and the uninsured. >> i we are we w506d that conversation back --

>> you were there. >> i was not there. >> you guys were there. >> they refused to negotiate. >> i remember that, he was a --. the bill passed did not have a single republican vote. where was the need to negotiate for the desired -- >> it was also debated in the 2012 election pretty heavily. and you failed in the supreme court, and you failed in the 2012 election. >> wait a second. >> this has been debated. the american people -- >> wait a minute. >> the american people have said pretty clearly and the polls show this that they want to move on, they want to change it as necessary to improve it. >> to give the law a chance means higher health care costs. >> that's actually not true. the rates came out yet. >> when i got elected to congress, i made a decision i would not take the congressional plan, i wanted to be in the same boat as my constituents. so my wife and i found a plan that met our needs, in a very rural area of colorado that has

limited health care opportunities. a great hospital, but we don't have all the access, so we found a head care plan. just a couple weeks ago we got a letter in the mail saying thanks to obama care your plan is being canceled. the insurance i had i was promised that if i liked my plan i could keep it, is being canceled. where is the promise. >> i looked up what was happening in colorado. let's bring this up on the screen. now, you make too much money to qualify for the tax credit, but the median income is somewhere around $57,000. you make more than that, so a family of four, who can get the tax credit, they can buy a silver plan, which is a very good plan, much better than what's being offered right now. with the tax credit they will be eligible for. $388 per month.

>> the president needs 389% of the people enrolling in health care to come from that young age bracket. in colorado you could be paying as much as 140% more. >> the majority of young people qualify for that tax credit. >> let me at the you. >> under my plan -- thanks to obama care -- >> you have two other options there. >> excuse me, folks. let me tell you. in my state we've come out with rates that are significantly below what people expected. for a young person who may have a preexisting condition, they're going to pay way less than they ever might imagine. >> can i ask you something? the rates that came out, were they only for the twin city area? >> it was for the state of minnesota. the information elf is areas outside of that -- >> it's -- >> it is -- it is clearly

conclusive, the rates across minnesota are significantly lower. >> let me -- here's the reality. we're talking about people, some of whom -- a young woman who worked on my staff, she a very serious congenital illness. in fact she would tell you that but for obama care, she would not be alive today, because we got rid of lifetime limits and annual 4ri789s. this young woman as a juvenile could not get insured. she wouldn't have -- she has insurance now, and she's here to talk about it. >> why was she not eligible for the high risk plan? >> she was, but getting it -- that was like her only option and there was nothing else she could get. she couldn't go in the private sector to get a plan. >> and you normally pay higher rates. >> that brings up the point

prohibitively higher in her situation. >> i think it's important to point out, in minnesota, if i'm correct, people participating in the high-risk pool through minnesota care, i believe. >> min-sure. >> so those people haven't been exposed yet to obama care. when they go into the plan, the rates will go up dramatically. >> i don't believe that's true. okay, guys, hold on. we'll get clarity in a machine. when we come back, stephanie and i will share with you you our favorite versions of bill clinton negotiating, and by the way, they're a little bit different versions. [ male announcer ] this store knows how to handle a saturday crowd. ♪

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welcome back to "crossfire." last night piers morgan surprised me by getting bill clinton to say this -- >> we worked it out when he was trying to run me out of town. we were still working together. i mean, i knew it was a game to him. he thought, you know, he would -- as he looked -- he once said to erskine bowls, the difference between us is we'll do whatever you can and you won't do that. there are things you think you shouldn't do. i let him do whatever we could,

and we would do business on the side. >> newt, i have my own bite to show you that things have changed since you were speaker. >> unfortunately, the faction that now dominates is the republican party doesn't see it that way. they think government is always the enemy, they're always right, and compromise is weakness. >> you know, i'll just say this. if bill clinton were president today, he would be talking and talking and talking. he was capable of endless meetingses, and it's part of the american system, like we're doing right here, to get people in a room to get off the stage, away from the cameras, and lay it out. i think that in that sense -- >> you do have to admit that the way our politics runs now, particularly in the house of representatives, is different from what you dealt with. there really is nobody to negotiate with. it's controlled by 45 members on the right that boehner has not figured out how to threat the needle. it's impossible.

>> i don't actually agree with that. >> i know. >> i think in the end you negotiate with a party leader, and john boehner -- >> and you get nowhere. congressman ellison and cory gardner are in the crossfire. congressman gardner, who is actually in charge? if the president did want to negotiate with someone, should he bring all 238 members and let the real leader der. >> the house of representatives john boehner -- >> he doesn't have the authority to negotiate. >> and the american people wanting us to get rid of had health care catastrophe. >> the list you all put out today, your demands, extortions. >> those are popular among the -- >> you're already walking it bulk, already retweaking it, because it's not right wing enough for many members of the caucus. what does that mean? >> it was rammed through the health care bill. >> it's already moving to the right. it's not what you can negotiate on. >> if we're talking about

including things like the keystone pipeline, if we're talking -- >> is this an a la cart list? >> to get our economy back on its feet and restore the damage that the past four, five years have dodge. i want to go back to the health care problem he made. he said if you had a health insurance plan you liked, you would get to keep it. he said this would help reduce the cost of health care. richard foster, the chief actuary, an independent, testified before congress in 2011 those two promising will not come true. as you've seen my family. >> richard foster has also said the price will go down. >> we've seen the price increase. >> no, you haven't. >> i've seen the price increase. it's right here in my policy. >> there are many plans in colorado, better than what you're getting now. >> pays $1,480, and the president told me if i would like my plan. >> it's the most expensive. most of the plans on that list

are better than what you have now. >> you know what, stef -- >> not 1,480. >> if you have a big problem, you ed a big solution. so we had a serious problem in american health care. we came with a bill to try to address it. there's never been a perfect piece of legislation. you're going to have to go back and work on it. you're going to have to look at parts of it that aren't looking so well and you'll have to change those things and keep the ones that are looking. >> that's not what nancy pelosi did. >> no, cory, you're talking about the past. i'm talking about now. i'm saying right now we could get together and work on solving problems. that's not what we're doing. >> the president said he wouldn't be willing to negotiate. how do you negotiate -- he's not negotiating with us. >> we can negotiate on all types of things. we can negotiate on the budget, you but on the debt ceiling, it's going to do the very things you say you don't want to do, which is create all kinds of uncertainty. that will jack up interest rates -- cory, hear me out.

that will increase interest rates, increase unemployment. you talk about a lot of uncertainty, you're creating unsrcht. >> the president tried to use the debt limb to enforce his will on iraq. >> oh, come on. >> now he's son don't even think about doing that. you know what's going to destroy the economy is the debt. >> here's a question for you. >> that's what's going to break this economy. >> i think the deficit is down to about $642 billion. >> which means we're still adding to it. >> the deficit is going down, we are making progress. >> every year the debt is growing. >> even john boehner -- we have long-term issues to deal with. we should deal with them, but the fact is you won't give the president credit for reducing the deficit. >> i want to ask an a la cart question. if everything that stephanie objects to is tripped out, the

debt ceiling comes out and all it has is the repeal of the tax on medical technology, which is what an anti-innovation and anti-jobs tax, and particularly hits minnesota. >> it hits minnesota. >> if it has one thing on it over and above the debt ceiling, which is the repeal of that tax? >> you know . we haven't talk about the shutdown. we've been talking about a lot of other stuff, but the

shutdown, we can negotiate over that kind of stuff. again, i know that to get a deal, i'm going to have to vote for stuff i sure don't like, cory, and so are you, but we have a situation where it's my way or the highway. >> remember the budget control act went through? it was passed. >> i remember it. >> come on, come on. cory, no. >> we can talk about the opportunities to work together, but then the

they made changes as necessary. they want to get the law a chance. i have a very specific question.

you put out this list of demands. you seem pretty serious about delaying the health care law for individuals for a year. 11 million americans won't get health care. is that your bright line? are you going to let the government default? >> the only people talking about default are the people like harry reid. >> no, no. your party has been talking about default. >> if we have a debt ceiling, let's take that opportunity to do something. so you won't default. >> nobody is talking about defaulting. >> what if we don't accede to your demands? >> if you're talking about that, something the american people -- >> you've listed the demands. what if we don't do what you require? >> it would bring in regulatory -- >> let's get real, man. what happens if we don't do what you say here. >> can i bring up a radical idea for a second? it just breaks out of the whole current system.

harry reid could announce tomorrow morning that the senate will pass the key stone pipeline. and the senate will pass the repeal to the tax devices. and when it came out of the senate, you know the house will pass it. the president could announce he would sign it. that would be a step toward a cleaner debt ceiling. and you can say, gee, we both won. they got two of the major goals. there are lots of ways to do this. there's no way to do it if everybody engages in press conferences and partisan speeches. >> i think talking is the right thing to do. i don't know if your prescription is the right answer but talking is the right thing. >> i'm told by the now that i now have to say thank you to both of you. geern t guarantee we'll have you come back. next, we'll cease fire. and jay carney's obsession with "crossfire" continues. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals:

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we've been debating obstructionism. now let's try to cease fire. i think there's one thing we can agree on. at the end of the day i don't think we're going to default. i think it is a matter of how much destruction we do to the economy because of that republican obstructionism. last time it was $1 trillion to

the stock market. if i would have written, that i would have said due to the president's negativity and his refusal to negotiate -- so we sort of agree narrowly that there will not be a default. >> yes. go to facebook or twitter to weigh in on our fire back question. do you think the debt ceiling should be raised? right now, 45% of you say yes. 55% of you say no. >> cross fire seems to get mentioned every week at the white house. wire so glad you're watching. here's what happened when ed henry of fox news was questioning the president's press secretary, jay carney. >> please, we will -- big contracts and do it on "crossfire." >> you know, i think jay ought to come on the show. i would even volunteer to go and do the briefing for one day which would truly be wild and woolly. >> i would love to see that briefing. and i would love to have jay on the show any time. >> i may not