. this is cnn. about 9:00 here on the east coast, only about three hours to go before a government shutdown, john boehner tweeted this photo moments ago, showing the speaker on the phone with president obama. it is not clear if they will speak again tonight as the clock ticks away. that does it for this edition of "360," ten hours away, from the looming shutdown. piers morgan starts right now. this is cnn breaking news. this is "piers morgan tonight." the house votes another bill that would fund the government but delay obama care, that bill is certain to be rejected. an imminent shutdown, now only

three hours away, we'll see the effects right away. some of the most iconic items in the u.s. locked down, the statue of liberty, the face of liberty to many around the world, the gate ways, the arch, closed. many working for the government about to be furloughed. listen clearly to a frustrated president obama earlier. >> the shutdown will have a very real economic impact on real people. right away. >> here are the numbers, the shutdown could cost a billion a week in lost pay for federal workers. of course, congress itself will continue to be paid. but the total impact could be ten times worse, the estimates of the shutdown could cost the economy $5 billion. the crucial question tonight, who is to blame and can anyone stop it? cnn is covering the story from every possible angle. i begin with dana bash on

capitol hill. and jim acosta, dana, can anything stop this shutdown? >> do you believe in miracles? >> not really, no. >> reporter: that is just about what we'll need to see here for at least a technical shutdown, meaning the clock striking midnight and no bill to fund the government passing congress, at least, and heading to the president's desk. what is happening as we speak, as you said, the house passed the bill that the senate is almost definitely going to reject. that is probably going to happen maybe in about a half an hour, meaning that they will formally reject it. and then the house goes back to the capital to figure out what their next move is. i am told it could be an all-nighter. it is entirely possible that we could see one, maybe two more of these volleys back and forth.

that the house impacting it, in some way, shape or form, the senate rejecting it until -- we don't really know. and to be honest, the sense i get from the republican leadership and the aides, they don't really know. i don't think it is fair to say they're making it up as they go along now. but they're definitely trying to figure out how to go forward now without completely alienating their conservative base. and more importantly if you look at the polls, the majority of the american public are looking at this going i don't get it. you have made your point, let's move on. >> and dana, you will be here with us throughout the night. and jim acosta, we got news that the president reached out to congressional leaders. he called senate majority leader harry reid, mitch mcconnell, and house minority leader nancy pelosi, what was the reason for the calls and how did they affect it?

>> reporter: well, we know that the president has not spoken by phone, or at least not that we have been told publicly since a week ago friday. the fact that the president called john boehner, the minority leader, nancy pelosi, senate minority leader mitch mcconnell, and harry reid is the sign the president is engaging with the leaders. but really, the white house strategy said this is your deal, congress, you guys pass the bills you send them here for me to sign. so that is the president's message, and piers, there were words that i heard stand out, if there were five words, they are "you can't shut it down." that is what the president said about his health care law, the white house, and talking about the phone calls from the president to congressional leaders said the president reinforced with the republican leaders that he will continue to oppose what they call any politically motivated attempts to de-fund or delay the affordable care act, which is the obama care.

he is not compromising, if there are any bills coming from the house to continue funding the government that does anything with obama care, listen to what a president obama said to npr steve inski recent with respect to what he should be offering as far as a deal. >> i should not have offer anything. they are not doing me a favor by paying for things that they have already approved for the government to do. that is part of their basic function of government. that is not doing me a favor. >> jim, let me just ask you. you are a seasoned white house expert. when -- when the president of the united states says i don't have to do anything, effectively, doesn't that just confirm my suspicion about president obama, he is not very good about negotiating these things. i mean, i couldn't imagine president clinton not calling or

negotiating with newt gingrich. it is very risky to do this, although i don't really blame him, bshould not he be wrestlin with them? >> the nation's credit rating took a hit, remember that process, that debt ceiling negotiation process the president engaged in produced the sequester. so the white house at that point was dealing with capitol hill on this sort of brinkmanship, but they decided this time they're not going to do that. what has changed since then? well, in 2011, the president was a year away from running for election, he likes to say these days i have run my last election. so it is possible the republicans have misread the president's intent to negotiation on this health care law. keep in mind, why would the president sign a law that delays

or tinkers with the threat of a government shutdown? he says he is not going to do it. he says when all of this gets out of the way, he looks at the process. he has not said what he is willing to look at but is offering that as perhaps a tiny fig leaf to the republicans, but i really get the feeling the president is saying listen, to john boehner, the tea party republicans, if you want to go off the cliff, go right ahead. >> jim, let's go back to dana, back to you. >> reporter: well, if you take a look at the senate floor, piers, the senate is already voting to what we believe will be an ultimate rejection, they were ready to send the house bill on what they say was the bill, a non-starter. i covered this for along time, i

don't remember the last time i saw a piece of legislation get from the senate and on to the floor, this quickly. but senate democrats are determined for a lot of reasons, primarily the clock, that we're getting close to midnight to make their voices heard and their position known. and very clear that they're going to reject this. and i should say this is the third attempt that house republicans have sent to them in the past week that they're going to reject. the first, of course, was completely de-funding obama care. the second that they rejected today -- the house passed over the weekend, was to delay obama care for a year, among other things, and what they voted on just this evening was just to delay the individual mandate and also to make clear that members of congress and their staff won't get the federal, premium support for their health care plans. this will be the third time they rejected it. >> well, dana, we'll get back to you on the dysfunctional d.c., for now, the dow jones dropped

more than 128 points today, the s&p 500 and the nasdaq closing with big losses, as well. how much will a shutdown cost you? with the answers, cnn christine roman, i have been watching you all day, getting increasingly angry, most americans share your view. this is a small part of america that is completely oblivious to how this looks. >> look, this is somewhere between long-term stupidity and long-term destruction. we are the biggest business in the world, and now you're saying look, the board is fighting with each other, the stock is fighting, just a dangerous place to be. the long-term implication depends on how long it goes, depends on how long it goes, maybe a couple of day, maybe wall street can withstand it, but the longer it goes, the more it hurts the americans, paycheck

to paycheck, and hurts the 401(k)s for americans riding the stocks. >> one point you made, the gun permits, new gun permits may be delayed as part of all of this. so this may be, without them realizing it, the tea partiers may have literally shot themselves in the foot. >> an interesting irony, as it were. look, when you look at the treasury department's list of contingencies, they run atf, and there are gun permits that run through that. when you shut down the government, you slow down or stop the work of the government, and the government issues gun permits. >> excellent, let's talk about the shutdown, that is the more serious issue. should america default, then this right now seems pretty unthinkable. if it defaults, what could be

the effect on the economy. >> jack lew, the secretary of treasury, says you don't do this. we pay our bills on time. you are the gold standard in the world. you mess with those bills, it could be catastrophic for the country. what a lot of people want to do is watch the stock markets in the next couple of days. what happens on the floor is to see if congress somehow is doing the worst damage and somehow gets closer to the debt ceiling. and if we have to borrow more money october 17th to pay the bills that congress has already spent. >> this is a scandal, thank you very much, good to have you. john mccain was in his second term in the senate during the last government shutdown during late 1995 and '96. who better than to talk about this tonight?

john mccain what is your reaction to this impending shutdown? >> well, my reaction is that it is unnecessary. and i'm afraid that the american people, as they have in the past, will blame republican, ie, republicans, and what is particularly disappointing is that obama care is going to have a lot of problems in its rollout. the president's polling numbers are falling in every category. and yet the story is to the american people, that republicans are fighting republicans. that is not helpful. >> it is not helpful, but it happens to have the benefit of being true, doesn't it? what is going on with the heart of the gop here. because it seems to me that large numbers of your party don't realize what a potential laughing stock they are making for the entire party. >> well, first of all, in their defense, these individuals, particularly house members campaigned saying that they would go to washington and they

would do anything in order to repeal and replace obama care. by the way, one of the ironies is that this does not stop obama care. it stops government, but it doesn't stop the funding of obama care. but i respect them. and i respect the position they held when they ran for election. and achieved that election. but i also think that it is very important that we understand that americans don't like government. they don't like congress. they don't like government. but they don't want it shut down. and when -- in '95, when we shut down the government the last time we had already passed a number of appropriations bills. so the impact of the shutdown of the government when we haven't passed a single appropriations bill, will be more meaningful and will be more impactful. and again, there is one other thing i want to mention. in 2009, i was on the floor of

the senate every single day fighting obama care. amendment after amendment. we didn't vote on it finally until christmas eve morning. i campaigned in 2012, as hard as i could, to repeal and replace obama care. so we didn't win. and the other aspect of this is that if you really thought you could on a path to repeal obama care, would require 67 votes in the united states senate. we now have 46 votes. and that -- because 67, because that is the number of the votes in the senate that would be required to override a presidential veto. so my proposal is why don't we go at it from the most unpopular provision, such as the tax on medical devices. and let's rifle shot devices, so we force people to vote on those through the regular legislative process, you see my point? >> no, i do see the point, it is a position that is

understanding, there are a lot of things that can be changed. but you don't surely if you're the world's great super power, bring your government stopping because you want to de-fund something, because he is being elected on it. after barack obama was reelected he told this to diane sawyer. >> i think the election changes that, that president obama was reelected. obama care is the law of the land. >> he used the point here, there is the speaker saying quite clearly obama care is the law of the land. and indeed, as the president said earlier, he was reelected on that basis. so the position of these renegades, for lack of a better word, in the republican party trying to shut down the obama care, seems incredibly selfish. >> but again, piers, we have to recognize that that is what they ran on. and that is what they were elected on. so that explains a lot of their passion. now, i obviously, have a

different view than they do. but you have to respect the fact that they are doing what they believe was fulfilling their commitment to the voters that sent them there. and we all know that the speaker has a great deal of difficulty in controlling 30 or 40, whatever it is, of his conference. which would then make him have to rely on democratic votes to achieve something, and obviously, he doesn't want to do that. it is a very difficult situation. but one that i'm afraid that when government is shut down for a few days that the american people will blame congress. and that is not some clairvoyance on my part. >> you can see the cnn poll, they said they were acting like spoiled children. who do you blame, republicans, 59%, democrats, 68%, and 47%,

the spoiled child. the clear implication from that already is that republicans will get more blame than the democrats. so this action, not only damaging america and america's interests and economy, but also specifically will damage the republican party, the party of which ted cruz and others are members. >> well, one thing that i would point out is that every senator has the right to act in the way that they see fit. and senator cruz and senator lee are acting in a way that they do, and we will let the american people make that decision. obviously, i disagree with that. but i respect their right to do so. but we also at some point have to honor the commitment or the decision, let me say, the decision of the american people which took place in the elections. in democracies, rightly,

majori majorities do rule. and it is clear the majority is in two of the branches, in the executive and the senate. and the republicans only control one of those branches. so that is why it -- i've seen this movie before. and we will not repeal obama care, at least in this fashion. >> senator john mccain, good to talk to you. >> thank you, piers. and newt gingrich tells me how he thinks it will go this time. and what he would have said to president obama. i was made to work. make my mark with pride. create moments of value. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt. starting at 49 dollars.

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senate is voting right now on a bill that would kill the house amendment. i want to bring in the congressman on the budget committee, welcome, congressman, what is your view of what is happening right now? are you proud of the fact that the renegade element as some call it in the republican party, is sort of leading to a government shutdown? >> well, first, piers, i want to keep the government open. but we moved over the last week, we first had a de-fund obama care bill, and then moved to a

delay obama care bill. and tonight, we voted on just one small section of the obama care bill, saying let's delay the individual mandate. the president already delayed the employer mandate. let's just treat big business as the same as the individual. and we did that, saying let's have the president join us. if they think the bill is so great, let's just not have the congressmen on the bill, let's -- >> but given not only the president of the united states has made it clear that he was reelected and everybody had a chance then to make a position about his key policy, obama care. but john boehner said after that election was won by barack obama that it was a legal mandate from the electorate. that is why he got re-elected. and obviously you couldn't just go against it. and suddenly, it is okay for you people to just paralyze the government of the united states and make the whole world laugh at you.

and i say, do you take pride in what you are doing? because it is a state of affairs -- >> piers, we were elected, and then barack obama was elected. nine democrats joined us in passing this bill in the senate, and some of the most conservative members, michelle bachmann, they didn't vote for this. this was a middle part of the congress that passed this bill and sent it. this is really reasonable. listen, if the senate is going to hold out saying we're not willing to include president obama and his staff on obama care, we're not willing to treat everybody fairly, just as big business, who stormed the white house, going to congress, and they got an exemption of that. that we're not going to treat individuals fairly? that is not right. >> i have got a poll for you,

congressman. 59% of americans believe that republicans in congress are acting like spoiled children. what is your reaction to that? >> listen, some americans might have disagreed with us trying to de-fund obama care. but tonight, piers, do you agree that they should be in the law with us? >> what i believe -- >> no, piers, let me -- >> congressman, what i believe is of course there are issues with obama care. it is a massive program and those issues should be explored and debated. and i'm sure it will be amended several times. however, the idea that a small group of republicans have decided to simply shut down the government over this is a shameful dereliction of your duty. >> that is not true, this is a bipartisan bill tonight. nine democrats joined us, some of the most conservative members were not with us. listen, i want to be clear, i want to keep the government open. >> you want to shut it down, if you wanted to keep it open, you

would keep it open. >> no, but are you saying the senate democrats want to protect them not being in obama care or protect them the same as big business? >> i think you'll find most morni americans think you're right to shut down the government -- >> listen, this is very simple, piers. >> listen piers, bipartisanship, we're not asking for a de-fund, we're not even asking for a complete de-fund -- >> you asked for a delay and got nowhere, and you're still asking for a plow-on, and get the government shut down. president obama was reelected so people in the country had their chance then to kick him out of his key program. >> the house of representatives was elected in 2010 because of obama care. and they were reelected again in 2012. this is what we're here to do is

have a dialogue. and if the president is out golfing over the weekend. you even mentioned this. the president should engage and talk through this stuff -- >> out of interest -- will you be following your salary -- >> let's talk with each other. listen, remember the state of the union? he said i'm willing to open my hand to enemies if they unclinch their fist. we're extending our hand? >> one final question, will you be furloughing your personal salary throughout this personal difficulty, as so many people are furloughing their salary? >> i'm on legislation to have all members furlough their pay. >> so will you be donating your salary to charity? >> they keep the government open for a small, simple change, including the administration, obama care. >> but just to confirm, you will be -- >> just the same as big business, and if they do that, we don't have a shutdown.

>> just to confirm, you will keep your salary through this period if the government shuts down. >> my hope is that the government doesn't shut down, i'm on that bill, keep the government open, no pay. i'm on that bill. >> and now i'll turn to newt gingrich, speaker of the house in the last shutdown, mr. newt gingrich, i interviewed the president last week, you said the same thing, you and he throughout the last shutdown, you were a key figure in that obviously. you spoke every day. you were wrestling every day with each other to try to get to a point of agreement. isn't it quite extraordinary that president obama calls john boehner late in the day today, and apparently had not spoken to him in a week? i mean, what is that all about? >> well, i can't explain it. you know, the president of the united states who can deal with putin but not with the elected members of the house of representatives. he can deal with assad of syria.

he had apparently a very pleasant phone call over the weekend with the current dictatorship of iran. but today, he had time to meet with the prime minister of israel. and in this process, what does he do? he makes three partisan speeches attacking republicans, and today he goes to the press and makes remarks about the republicans, there is zero communications between the republicans who do represent the majority in the house of representatives and the president of the united states. and i think it is a bizarre moment. >> well, what about the lack of communication between senior members of the republican party and the ted cruz brigade, who seemed hell-bent on shutting down the government. the moderate party appears to be ripped to pieces tonight. >> no, the party is not being ripped to pieces. no, people tend to forget, this is not a crisis. we had 12 -- >> a government shutdown is not a crisis? mr. speaker?

>> no, let me finish, piers. we had 12 government shutdowns under tip o'neill, the democratic speaker of the house, 12. we only had two during the period when i was speaker. i think because it has not happened since we're exaggerating greatly what this means, we have a house very different than the parliament, the house and senate and president is elected independently. this is by design. the founding fathers literally wanted to force all three to deal with each other. you know have in harry reid a senate majority leader who refuses to negotiate. and you have president obama, a president who believes he should be allowed to dictate what he wants and the job of the congress is to give it to him. that ain't the way the system works. >> well, talking about how the system works, i'm going to bring you one of your old adversaries,

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on breaking news again, senate has just voted to kill the house amendment on the government funding. joining me, newt gingrich, the co-host of the brilliant new show. and during the last shutdown, i feel like i'm bringing ali and frazier back. >> i'm ali. >> of course you are, dick.

let's talk about the shutdown, newt gingrich said earlier it was not a crisis, but surely most american people would imagine that any shutdown of the government constitutes a crisis, right? >> no, i'm opposed to the shutdown, i think it is stupid. i think the republicans should fight over the debt limit where they can win. but the shutdown, there will be no sonic boom going off at midnight. a percentage are entitlement, they are not affected. they get paid anyway. this is only about a third of the budget, it means, for example, you can use your passport to travel, you can't get a new one, you will get your social security checks, you can't newly apply, you can't get a new gun permit, the national partial parks will be closed. we felt disappointed frankly, at the lack of the shutdown.

have you any idea as a great american, a historian, what that means if the statue of liberty is closed for business? >> yeah, you know what message it sends, that a free people are having a disagreement, the most thing is we'll inconvenience tourist, i think if we're inconveniencing tourists is too great a price to pay -- >> let me pay your clip from my interview with bill clinton talking about you and the last

shutdown. >> we worked it out when he was trying to run me out of town, we were still working together. i mean, i knew it was a game then. he thought you know, he would -- as he looked -- he once said to erskine bowles, that we'll do whatever we can and you can't do that. you think there are things you should not do. and once i realized, we did whatever we could and we did business on the side. and you're laughing, but really, we reached an accommodation. >> dick morris, your reaction? >> quite a comment from a guy who once said, i did it because i could. i think the basic point here is the shutdown is stupid. because the public doesn't want it to shut down. it is like if i tell you, do teachers deserve more money? you will say yeah. should they strike and close the school to get more money? no, it is more important to have our kids get an education.

on the other hand, when the debt limit comes up, it says you should not raise your credit card limit until you pay your debts. by the way, christine was wrong, 70% of the revenue is from tax borrowing, not revenue -- >> what bill clinton said is once he realized it was all a bit of a game, he played you at the same game and you ended up doing your compromise deal together, mano to mano, my real concern, and i think it is shared by many in washington, the relationship of the president and speaker appears to be almost nonexistent, one is playing golf, one is in his office, and yet we have this paralysis in the office.

>> look, i think the office of the president, by nature of the job, the fact is they are in a much weaker position to negotiate than bill clinton and i were, partly by personality and partly by design. i think dick would agree with us, we both had a tremendous capacity for compartmentizialco, we didn't let the fighting stop the negotiating, and we didn't let the negotiating stop the fighting. >> i want to leave you both with this statistics, if ever there was a damning statistic, it is this. how is congress handling the job? the latest poll, how is congress handling the job? approve 10%, disapprove, 87%, you know the shocking thing about that poll, 10% of the people polled think congress is doing a good job here. isn't that unbelievable? >> look, i think that we have to understand that this shutdown is

going to be shortlived and the republicans are going to lose, because they are not unanimous in their caucus. probably a third of the caucus doesn't want a shutdown. they're going along because the tail is wagging the dog. and i think it is a matter of time until the dog stops wagging. i do believe we should stay here, because in two weeks we're going to have a real fight -- >> i agree, the debt ceiling -- >> the republicans will win. >> but the republican party -- >> final word with you, mr. speaker. >> sure, a republican party which can't fight over a shutdown is a republican party which won't be able to fight over a debt limit. the next few days are really important. they should hold out until they get some reasonable concession over president obama, or in fact they will have no leverage on the debt ceiling. >> final question, mr. speaker, are you proud of what the republican party has done tonight? >> i think it is a much better future than giving in to a president who refuses to negotiate, refuses to meet.

and who finds it easier to deal with russians, syrians, and iranians, rather than americans. >> maybe they're easier to deal with. >> just think about that comment, and you will understand why barack obama is in so much trouble on capitol hill. >> all right, newt gingrich, dick morris, good to see you. ahead, the side where the president mixes it up on the current crisis. my customers can shop around-- see who does good work and compare costs.

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just a little over two hours to go until a government shutdown, joining me now, austin goolsby, a member of the economic advisers, a former adviser to senator john mccain's 2008 presidential campaign, also ben ferguson, welcome to you all. charles blow, what the hell is going on? >> this is insane, i think everybody registers that this is insane. this is not the way you run a government. >> but they do know. >> i think they do know. i mean, the republicans are doing a pretty good job this week of trying to sell this as the democrats choosing to shut down the government because they choose not to engage and not to compromise. but there is nothing to compromise here. you can't attach something that has passed both houses of congress, signed by a president, affirmed by the supreme court of

the united states of america and say that a group of -- congressmen who represent about 10% of congress, who represent a movement in the tea party that represents about a quarter of the country, people -- you don't like it, so you get to bend arms and get your way. this is not the way it works. >> but ben ferguson, you're mad, how do you plead? >> i think it is ridiculous, that so many people, including the president are implying that guys like ted cruz have so much power. this is one guy, one person in the senate does not have this much power. and i think it is proof that barack obama either one, has no clue how to negotiate, or two, really has no clue how to run the government during a shutdown when it is looking at you in the face. look at the last 12 hours. they have said republicans are like terrorists. they have said that i don't need them to do me any favors. they have said i refuse to negotiate. if you think everyone else is

acting like a child, okay, let's just say i accept that premise for a moment, every republican is a child tonight, as president of the united states of america, don't you have a job to be presidential and call the children and say come over to the white house and we'll work on this. but he is not doing it. >> calm down, mr. ferguson, let's go to a clip of john boehner who is doing his best to not be childlike, doing his best impression of the president, watch this. >> i talked to the president earlier tonight. i'm not going to negotiate, i'm not going to negotiate, we're not going to do this. well, i would say to the president, this is not about me, this the not about republicans in congress, it is about fairness for the american people. >> austin goolsby, about fairness to the american people, your reaction? >> look, my reaction, what we learned in the '90s, i believe we're learning now. the only reason we're about to

have a shutdown is because there is a difference of opinion partly over the size of government and the level of spending, but really whose side fundamentally is america going to be on? and if you start seeing the p popularity of republicans dropping significantly over the next several days, then america comes to the conclusion that they don't like what the republicans are doing, you will see the republicans on both this and the debt ceiling cave or change their position, if it works the opposite way and the administration looks bad, you will see them search for another way. but what we're going to determine now if this is a shutdown, we're looking at who america thinks is at fault for doing this, and i think in the past two years, when you see america point the dpifinger and make that decision, you see the other side just try to get it off the table. >> the problem is, as john mccain told me and newt gingrich, everybody has referred to this, we've all been down

this road before. we've all known how this movie plays out because it happened in the mid-'90s. and it plays out in this position, with the republicans getting the blame. >> i want to go back to what austin said because i think he had exactly the right point. if you look at the polling in what ultimately matters, swing districts, battleground districts, particularly the districts the republicans occupy, that is at stake in 2014, they support what the republicans are up to. obama care is very unpopular, de-funding it, delay pieces of it, very unpopular. using the funding bill, the so-called continuing resolution, to do that is actually very popular. the one thing that is not popular is closing the government. so it is not surprising they have tip-toed up to it, explored all the options they have. and now comes the interesting moment. at some point they have to pi t pivot, not close the government.

and if so you get to the point, what is the ramifications and how does it play into the debt battle? >> piers -- >> i do want to say. this is not emotion and this is not ted cruz, this is people following the incentives the political system set up. >> or as this poll suggested, just people being childish. ben ferguson, hold your fire. i'm going to come to you first after the break. i want you simmering with your normal rage, come out of the tracks in about three minutes. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro.

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in just over two hours we'll know if the u.s. government shuts down. i'm back with my all-star panel. ben ferguson, should these congressmen who vote in favor of the shutdown, should they all be entitled to their salary or those salaries be furloughed as a gesture to the american people whose lives they are trying to wreck? >> i think they should be furloughed and shouldn't have exceptions from obama care either. they should have to play by the same rules. and congress shouldn't be able to give out exemptions to friends and unions and colleagues who come to them begging for exemptions. what is that word? "washington insiders" that's part of the reason why this is happening tonight. if you have money or influence you don't have to play by the

same rules that the average american citizen does. that's one of the reasons that the president is in trouble on this tonight. >> it's all done to president obama which brings in obama care. apparently -- i come from a country where that is an odd way of looking at things. >> i think at the end of the day we have to see how the messaging works on this particular issue. i think we -- at this point -- have to start saying when the government shuts down even if it is only for a short period of time. what you have seen is the president is taking a backseat, not engaging. >> but it's not -- wait a minute -- wait a second. isn't that the problem with barack obama? doesn't he always take a backseat? >> wrong. >> shouldn't he get to john

boehner office and pull up his sleeves and do business? >> wrong. when people are objecting to you -- not just your policies but your person, you -- >> hold on. i'm not moving on. >> what do you think nance ploe pelosi did? >> you talked. my turn. >> you have been shut down, ben ferguson. >> there is nothing like the power of the presidency to command attention. the moment they go off this cliff you are going to see barack obama and the democrats barrage them as irresponsible members of the government. >> we heard from newt gingrich earlier. he lane clinton sat down man to man and sorted stuff out. is this what has to happen here? boehner and obama in the same

room? >> eventually that will happen. and the last time we had a debt ceiling fight the president did what you are saying he ought to do now. it backfired. they had a six-week negotiation that went nowhere. but the second is the thing that hurt the democrats in the discussion of obama care was people who aren't following the details that closely would look and the republicans said we are unanimous and the democrats are divided. so they are the ones being unreasonable. and people say that's probably right. and this time it's the reverse. >> i have to hit our own shutdown right now. but thank you to all of you who have the stamina to come back after midnight. so whoever can come back, come back. we'll be right back. but they didn't fit. customer's not happy, i'm not happy.

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