cr. they that before them and can do that right now. if they do that we will agree to work with the republicans on funding for the government -- >> there is the breaking news from harry reid. they are not going to accept the request to appoint conferees to come up with a compromise. it looks like the government is about to shut down one hour for now. that does it for this edition of "ac360 later." later live coverage of the later live coverage of the breaking news on capitol hill. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com as we count down to a government shutdown in washington working hard tonight, harry reid is speaking on the senate floor. i want to listen to him talking about whether there will be a compromise. >> agenda that is so hurtful to the american people. so i want everyone to hear what i just said.

we will not go to conference until we get a clean cr. government closes. what benefit do we have from that? we have in two weeks -- we have the government is not only going to close down we're going to lose the credit rating because they are talking about not raising the debt ceiling. >> madame president -- >> senator from new york. >> madame president, i sort of feel sorry for speaker boehner. he has this hard-right tea party group -- >> chuck schumer is speaking. we will continue monitoring what is going on here. but significant developments as we count down in this 49 minutes and 30 seconds until a shutdown. dana bash on capitol hill. explain what just happened. i know -- breakthrough is too big of a word. there is something afoot right now. >> there was a possibility,

pla perhaps. but what we just heard is that no, we're not going to do that. that was an idea that house republicans are going forward with that we have reporting over the past hour is they are going to take another vote on the house floor tonight and that is going to be the same vote they took before, that the senate rejected an hour ago. but along with that they are going to say they want congress to appoint what are known as conferees in layman's termings, negotiators to work out a deal on the budget bill or on the spending bill. so what that means, the fact they said no, is what we thought which is that the government will shut down. the government will shut down technically or any other way at midnight tonight. so it's in less than an hour.

>> if the republicans were saying we will go into conference and the democrats are saying yeah, sure, if you pass the bill clean beforehand. so here we are back to another stalemate. >> exactly. >> what happens tomorrow? we have a few days here where things are not good but it's not the end of the world. are they going to be able to resolve this in that period of time? >> you know, it's really unclear how this particular standoff is going to end and when is it going to end. i mean, the idea is -- from senate democrats point of view and we have been told, ultimately from the relationship leadership they would have to relent at a certain point. but we thought that would happen two moves ago but house republicans and it didn't. three moves ago. we don't know how it's going to go. basically, probably it will go as long as john boehner thinks it needs to go until he can say eureka or look at the house conservatives and say i played all my moves.

we did everything we could and thought the good fight. let's get the government up and running. >> i guess my fundamental question is this, john boehner didn't want to be in this position. he had -- the right wing of the party said you lay down on the ground in front of this truck and do it over this budget. don't wait for the debt ceiling. but if they end up caving and end up losing do they have the ability to fight over the debt ceiling or did they just completely lose altogether? >> i have to tell you that's a very astute question, erin that is part of the concern i had heard from house republicans they are using their arsenal for the debt ceiling on this bill which they didn't want to do. and at the end of the day they could hurt the republicans' hand when they negotiate on the debt ceiling -- [ speaking foreign

language ] [ inaudible ] >> dana will be with us for the next 55 minutes. the president has refused to budge on this. you have both sides categorically saying we're not here to negotiate. tonight the president called john boehner and other congressional leaders to discuss the shutdown. it had been over a week since the speaker and the president had spoken. but speaker boehner went to the house floor to explain what he said happened on the phone with the president. here's what he did. >> i talked to the president earlier tonight. i'm not going to negotiate.

well i would say to the president this is not about me and not about republicans here in congress. it's about fairness for the american people. >> all right. that call obviously didn't make a dent when you hear john boehner summarizing the president's stand as i'm not going to negotiate. jim acosta is at the white house. you reported on these calls at the 7:00 hour. i guess when i think about now how john boehner is describing that call, you have a relationship between these two men that is not polite and let's get things done behind the scenes. it just appears to be frankly rather nasty and that appears to be the worth possible thing to get things done. >> it's not good, erin. and if there is one thing that the white house and speaker can agree on is the president basically said no i'm not going to negotiate over this health care law in terms of a threat to

a government shutdown or of a debt default. the president has said time and again he will look at changes to the health care law but not under the threat of a shutdown or debt default. he's just not going to go there. and one of the signs we were heading to a shutdown came in the last hour when a white house official told cnn that the president did sign the bill into law that protects the pay of active duty military personnel. their pay will be going out on time. those paychecks will be going out on time as opposed to what we originally thought that the paychecks might delayed. the white house put out a picture of. that and also earlier this evening, the white house has a web page that shows how the government shutdown would affect the economy costing $10 billion a week affecting women, seniors,

children, et cetera putting the blame on republicans saying if the government shuts down it's because house republicans refused to pass the continuing resolution out of the senate. and one e-mail from the white house this evening summing up all of this, erin it said p.s. -- at the bottom -- p.a. you will still be able to sign up for obamacare tomorrow shut down or no shutdown. >> democratic senator jeff merkley is on the appreciations committee and banking committee, front and center on all of this. thank you for joining us. appreciate it. >> you're welcome, erin. >> let me start off with the question that was on the table that we will set up a conference and you heard harry reid saying no i'm just not going to the that. you pass the continuing resolution with no strings attach attached and we'll talk. is there any way you would have

voted for this going to committee? or was that a nonstarter? >> we voted for that six months ago. the reason we have not had a conference is because the senate republicans have been blocking it from happening. they have gone to the floor 18 times and blocked it from negotiation. they are calling for it now. they should go to the floor and withdraw their blockade, let the conference go ahead but it's meanwhile we shouldn't be shutting down the government while carrying on the conversation. the republicans have said they are going to hold the country hostage again over the debt limit and once again when the existing continuing resolution expires which is weeks away. but it makes no sense now to shut down the government. >> let me ask you, they have raised a couple of points here. and you know what -- i've been tough on them. but he has raised a point i want to raise with you. one issue they have with

obamacare is that congress and the white house get special treatment. so regular americans who earn what your staffers or you earn don't get subsidies and benefits that people who are in congress and their staffs get. that seems deeply unfair to a lot of people and one of the things that the republicans want to change. why wouldn't you negotiate on something like that? >> quite frankly there will be a lot of things that work and don't work in something that takes up a sixth of the national economy, that is health care. but you don't do it by embedding a hostage taking situation we are going to run the economy off the cliff to have that debate. if we endorse this now there is no end to the trouble ahead. i want the senate to pass a farm bill. we have sent one to them twice. i want them to pass an infrastructure bill that communities need all across america. but we are not holding the economy hostage to make that happen. there is a policy and budget

process. by the way -- >> it sounds like if you are willing to talk about it why hasn't it happened? they are having to do these things because you don't want to talk to them at other times. >> certainly they would say that. but if you want to talk health care policy their health care committee should have been putting out bills that do the reforms and sending them to us. but they voted 45 times to shut down access for 30 million americans to health care rather than putting ideas on the table to be discussed. here's the challenge. ted cruz says he does not want this to go into effect because the american people might like it. they might found out that this works. preexisting conditions will be solved and small businesses will get a better deal. he doesn't want america to

discover this will work. that's an absurd position to take an the tactic is absurd as well. >> thank you, we appreciate it. nice to have you on the show, sir. the breaking news coverage continues here. we are live on "outfront" nancy pelosi will be giving a press conference. it is significant to see what she has to say to see whether there could be a breakthrough or whether a shutdown is inevitable. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] this store knows how to handle a saturday crowd.

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breaking news. we are counting down to the shutdown. this is a special edition of "outfront" you are looking at a picture of where nancy pelosi will be speaking, holding a press conference in a few moments. we are going to give that to you live. that will be significant. we will go to that live. you know, there's been a lot of back and forth. and the government is going to shut down in just under 45 minutes time. there may be conferences tomorrow or maybe nothing happening tomorrow. that is the ultimate problem. joining us now as we get ready for the house minority leader to speak is michael medved. he has a radio show and we have with us also joining us john avlon executive editor of "the daily beast" and terry holt joining us.

let me start with you, michael. when i look at the situation it's gotten a little confusing, right? the g.o.p. comes out no deal. then they say we're going into conference. you know and talk about this tomorrow. but let's not shut the government down. and democrats say no. republicans are stages a revolt. how much damage has the g.o.p. done to itself? >> let me tell you, erin i was looking at the coverage on cnn. there are the beautiful shots of the capitol dome lit it night. this is profiles in crazy. and there is so much blame to go around and the american people are universally disgutted with the democrats and republicans and tea party and establishment and president obama. and to me, that is the biggest missed opportunity here.

the president this afternoon instead of repeating i'm not going to negotiate could have said, you know what, i want harry reid and john boehner and mitch mcconnell to all come into the oval office and let's work this out. everyone says we don't want the government to shut down. it hurts a lot of people. we're not that far apart. let's just settle this thing. the only question is they are going to settle it eventually why is it better to settle it after the government shuts down? it is crazy. >> we can all agree it is crazy. so terry, you used to be the spokesman for john boehner. john boehner said in march he didn't think that the golf should use these moments for negotiations. he thought it was not a smart idea. but here he is coming out being the guy saying it's a smart idea. does he feel sick every time he has to say it or has he bought into the what the far right wing

of his party are making his do? >> but it's the president who said he's not going to negotiate and the democrats who have been unwilling to delay obamacare. barack obama delayed obamacare this summer. >> i know where you are going. is it making john boehner sick every time he has to do this? >> john boehner is managing a conference of congressmen who believes that they are doing the right thing. it is a tough situation. there are guys out there that believe a government shutdown is what it's going to take to shake this country up and get it back on its fiscal feet. they believe that obamacare is going to wreck this economy and believe in their principles. it's not wrong in the united states congress to disagree. i think what michael said is

right. people are sick of this. the main narrative for most people is not all the hype about the shutdown. it's that washington doesn't work any more. until it starts working most of these politicians are in dangerous in the next election. >> which is a fair point. but john avlon, part of the reason it's not working is that people feel that they only need to act on the principles on what one group of voters wants. they do not negotiate and it happens on both sides. >> they are confusing principles with hyper partisanship. either we have impotent leadership in the house or they have essential delegate the direction of the country to people who are unreasonable. independent voters like divided

government but now it's disfunctional and this is different. >> i'm going to hit pause with all of you. nancy pelosi is approaching the microphone. let's listen to her and then get your reaction. chris van holland is behind her. >> as we gather here right near statuary hall i'm reminded that president washington when he was leaving office cautioned political parties who are at war with their own government. here we are tonight. you know what they are planning to do, if you don't, chris van holland who is the ranking member on the budget committee for the house democrats and has led us with great -- based on values and to reduce the deficit and create jobs i'm going to yield to chris. he will give perspective to what is happening tonight and why it is not a good evening. chris?

chris van holland. >> thank you, madame leader. we are gathered here at a very sad point in the history of this congress. because what the house republicans are doing right now is voting for a government shutdown. we have 45 minutes to go. and instead of passing the bill already adopted by the senate, which would guarantee that we keep the government open, they are rejecting that. and instead saying that they want to go to conference with 45 minutes left. which is a recipe for shutting down the government. now i just want everybody to be clear on one thing. we have been pressing our republican colleagues to negotiate on the budget since last march. the house passed a budget and the senate passed a budget. you may remember our colleagues making a big deal about no

budget, no pay. well it turns out, they weren't serious about getting a federal budget. we did get a house budget. we did get a senate budget but no federal budget. why don't we have a budget? because the law requires that by april 15th you have negotiators between the house and the senate meet and try to make compromises for the greater good. they refused to do that. i want to call your attention to a resolution that we introduced here in the house, the democrats, way back in april. april 23rd, resolution, very simple. expressing the sense of the house of representatives that the speaker should immediately request a conference to appoint conferees to complete work on a fiscal year 2014 budget resolution with the senate. that's what we introduced way

back in april. the speaker said no. he refused to appoint anybody to negotiate on the budget. we had votes calling upon the house. calling upon the speaker to appoint budget negotiators. they voted no. they voted to deny the house an opportunity to appoint budget conferees. what happened in the senate? i believe at least 15 times -- 18 times. the majority leader harry reid and the budget chairman, patty murray asked to appoint conferees to work out the budget issues. and 18 times, republicans, led by people like senator lee said no. they blocked it. i would point out senator mccain at the time said it was, quote, insane, for republicans to be blocking a negotiation on the budget since they spent all of

last year calling upon the senate to have a budget. now the speaker of the house earlier this year said, he didn't want to engage any more with the president, the white house on negotiations and wanted to go through the regular order. well the regular order means appointing budget negotiators. the reason we're here today is that the speaker of the house refused to name budget negotiators and the senate republicans blocked budget negotiations. why would they do that? you have to compromise when you go to a budget negotiation. they didn't want to do that. instead we have a very deliberate and calculated strategy not to go through those negotiations but to wait until the government is on the precipice of shutdown. then they figure they don't have to compromise. they can just demand that democrats and the congress adopt their radical propositions,

getting rid of the affordable care act. and they threatened the government will no longer pay its bills is their next step. they believe that that they would not have to compromise by driving the federal government to the edge and shut down as we are 40 minutes away. and threatening that the united states will not pay its bills on time. so we are eager to go to conference on the budget any time. if but let's not shut down the government. in order to get there. let's keep the government open, which we can do if we adopt the senate bill and then let's do what we have been asking for since march and april of this year. >> so you are listening to chris van holland. and what you heard senator merkley say on this show which is the now democratic talking point. and that is, last spring we

wanted to get this done and go to conference and talk about it and john boehner refused. john avlon, a quick fact check on that. it's true but not totally true. >> what they're doing right now is explaining to the american people why democrats are rejecting speaker boehner's offer to solve this in congress. they thought it might avoid a shutdown. they are saying the reason we are having this fight is because we haven't passed a budget. we have been wanting to go to conference but the republicans have blocked it. >> and the republicans blocked it because democrats wanted to include an increase in the debt ceiling in that. >> correct. >> the republicans want to use the debt ceiling as a conversation point. >> a leverage point and mike lee, rubio and cruz have been fighting that fight. >> terry, what about this?

did john boehner make a mistake by not going into conference before? the question is here, is he going have ended up overplaying his hand in such a way that the republicans lose the battle over the budget and not able to fight a battle over the debt ceiling in two weeks? >> before that, the trap from the democrats i need to point out that harry reid refused to bring the senate in on sunday. that would have given us an extra day. but the thing that the democrats want to do in the spring was to give president obama a blank check to raise the debt ceiling automatically and without any debate in the congress. they just didn't want to do that. the president has increased the debt and put trillions of dollars on the next-generation of americans. and they just weren't willing to the that. i think that was a reasonable position. as for john boehner's position now, he is in a position of saying let's delay obamacare as

part of this. it may not be the clean way to do it. but it is a legitimate way that people feel in this country -- obamacare is unpopular. people believe job will be lost and the economy will continue to drag under this huge new government entitlement. this is the congress. they get to disagree. the fact they haven't been able to talk together from this spring until now is a recipe for disaster for the american people. they say pox on all their houses. they are acting like spoiled children. but the democrats are just as responsible as republicans in this. >> the people do hold them all responsible but the republicans take the lions share of the blame. >> but the president has the bully pulpit. he can say what he wants and gets on all the television shows and he has the megaphone to challenge this.

remember, president clinton won this showdown in 1995. it's instruct everybody for republicans. but that's a different topic. >> final word, michael medved? >> we shouldn't be trying to assign blame for something that has not happened yet. why not look for solutions? >> you have 30 minutes and one second. >> this could be the only good part about the shutdown which is i do believe they now are going to have to bring in raising the debt ceiling. and honestly they shouldn't just have a solution that kicks the can down the road for two weeks or two months they should do something and get some kind of terms of agreement or a mechanism to work out these fights. the american people are tired of this. they have seen this movie. it's not a fun thriller. it's a stupid thriller. it's a thriller where all sides lose. and maybe it's somebody's

diabolical plan to suppress turnout and no one will vote. >> all i can say is they should deal with the spending issues before the debt ceiling. all the debt ceiling is paying for things you have already approved. it should happen before that point if we had leadership on all sides. but i'm just speaking like an american frustrated with leadership in washington. we're going to take a break but there is action going on the senate floor down to 29 minutes before the shutdown. looking unlikely there will be a breakthrough tonight. we are monitoring that. this is the live shot of the senate floor. we will be back in just one moment as we count you down live here on cnn on "outfront" to the government shutdown. er, she's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. [ claira ] after the deliveries, i was okay. now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again.

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breaking news in less than 30 minutes we are just about 25 minutes, the u.s. government is going to shut down. it is going to be the first time in 17 years the democrats and republicans have failed to agree on a spending plan. only a legislative miracle will stop the shutdown. congressman thank you for taking the time. 25 minutes away here and you know, the context here is the american people are p.o.'d. why -- >> they don't want obamacare. >> if you ask if the price of getting rid of obamacare is

shutting down the government let's not shut down the government. >> this is an insidious law. it is terrible. we are the ones that have been reasonable here we have offered all kinds of solutions than solutions based on our duty in the house of representatives that hold the pursestrings in the constitution to decide what to fund and not fund. the only people talking about shutting down the government harry reid and the president. we just want to get the american people beyond obamacare. >> a lot of people don't like the law. butn't hasn't gone into effect yet. how do you know it is an insidious law? >> first of all the president himself and his administration admit it is one of the worst laws. he has given 1200 waivers to

this law and offered 13 delays. the authors of the law said it was a train wreck. you don't have to wait until october 1st to realize the negative impacts. businesses are reducing full-time workers to part-time workers. the 40-hour workweek has been the bedrock of the middle class in modern american history and we are destroying that. thousands of workers are getting laidoff or reduced to part-time status. insurance is going up. i had a letter from a marker in indiana who is seeing a 140% increase in her insurance. i have 8800 letters just like that in the last month. >> let me ask you a question, though, you have these issues with it and want to make changes to it and my understanding is that the president acknowledged there are problems with the bill too. maybe you can agree on some but

not all. i'm not trying to negotiate on television. but why use the debt ceiling? why use the budget and a government shutdown as a way to have these conversations? it makes our country look bad to the world. >> no. we haven't got to the debt ceiling yet. we started out this negotiation with a full repeal and a full defund. the last offer we made tonight was just to get rid of the individual mandate for a year to match the employer mandate he sidelines. and now we're talking about simply going to conference to further negotiate. the only people unreasonable in this is the president and harry reid. they haven't offered a better solution or offered to negotiate. they just keep saying no. >> congressman, thank you very much. giving an impassioned case for where he stands on this issue.

we are 20 minutes away from a shutdown. when we come back we will be joined by a market expert who says whether that position makes sense and whether is it good for our economy and mortgage and our lives. this is something that truly matters. we will be back in a couple minutes here live on "outfront."

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welcome back to a special live edition of "outfront" on this breaking news. in less than 20 minutes the u.s. government will shut down. the republicans and democrats could not agree. joining us are -- [ inaudible ] let me start with you. you just heard a congressman saying that the health care law is the most insidious law known to man. obviously you are hear representing the right view of things. that seemed to me a bit of hyperbole. >> the law is problematic and making the case against itself. you don't need this showdown and i think that hyperbole is something that is getting the republicans in trouble. >> and getting them in serious trouble. now we are in a position where -- as -- freshman

republican congressman said he is on the right-hand side of this and agrees with the conservatives we keep coming down in our price, you we preannounce wed weren't going to shut down the government. this is no way to negotiate. this is a way to say his side has bungled the negotiations. >> but the problem is the structure here. the republicans don't have the power. they don't have the leverage. they don't have control of government to try to defund this president's signature law. by tying it to the budget they are trying to create governing by crisis. and that an illogical fool's errand. >> at what point do the markets exact a real price and a toll on the american economy which thus far you have the credit downgrade but the u.s. is disaster but everywhere else is a bigger disaster so it hasn't

hurt people. >> there have been a number of shutdowns, 17 of them since the late '70s. and those shutdowns didn't effect the stock market much or the bond market much. what we are look at in the next weeks is the debt ceiling being reached. but think of today alone, the stock market falling 1%. if it continued to happen, that is $300 billion of wealth wiped out over time. and the uncertainty that is the major impact on business for three years now. that is the biggest thing of all, the uncertainty. >> and it hurts this economy and grover my question to you is i don't understand why they use these moments to do what they should have done before. the debt ceiling, for example, or this budget is just keeping up with promises you have made.

they should have these discussions when they make the promises, cut the spending then instead of saying you should have cut it. >> the president of the united states wants to spend more money. every time we talk about negotiations he wants to raise taxes and increase spending. the president doesn't want to cut spending. the senate, you saw reid tell his head of the finance committee if you want to do tax reform the only tax reform would raise at least a trillion dollars so it could all be spent. the democrats want to spend more and the republicans want to spend less. it is hard to see how they come to an agreement. since the only time the president talks to republicans is during these moments of cr, budget, or debt ceiling this is when the decisions get made. you have three years in a row where the democratic senate didn't even do a budget.

the senate didn't even pass a budget. why are we doing this now? for years the president has not talked with the republicans because the democrats in the senate have not bothered to pass budgets. >> they tried to go to conference with republicans who turned them down. i get the politics of all. this but the question for tony is when is it going to count? some people will feel it and a lot of people will not. when is it going to hurt? >> there is an immediate effect. 100,000 checks won't go out to people and it's the indirect effects and the effect on businesses and uncertainty and the effect on markets. but don't look for a big impact on markets. the bond market, interest rates and mortgage rates are driven by the federal reserve which all employees will be at their desks tomorrow which is an interesting way to look at this.

the federal government is not doing much. so the fed is left to hold up the fort. and so does inflation. that is what investors should be thinking about. >> that is the crucial question. still to come we are 12 minutes away from what could be a government shutdown. imagine what happens if washington worked. this economy could have been firing on many cylinders. we will talk about what the shutdown will mean for democrats and republicans in the long run. with the lowest ratings we have ever seen in the united states.

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lifelock is there. call us at 1-800-lifelock or go to lifelock.com today. welcome back to a special live edition of "outfront." that is the white house and that is where the president has ordered government agencies to begin shutting down. 800,000 checks will stop going out. millions of americans will lose access to some services. how will it shut down the president and lawmakers? this does come down to polls. none are faring well in the polls. but that is the question. we bring in douglas brinkley and

gloria borger. the latest polling, 44% of americans approve of the way that the president is handling his job as president. that is down a point from june and is below 50%. how does it affect the president in the long run? and obviously the context is he has a lot of stuff going on in foreign affairs which are challenging as well. >> well, the big poll was the 2008 election in which he won and obamacare will be the law of the land. this is a last-gasp effort to derail it. and you are seeing the republican party split in two. the tea party caucus it's

unstau unsustainable. you had a market analysis saying anything could happen with it. but we have -- if it's a short shutdown, obama is holding the winner's hand right now. >> gloria, what will it do to the republican party? speaker boehner more than half approve of him but 37% unfavorable rating in may. that is up to 48% now. i mean that is a big jump. the president's rating moved a point and the speaker nine points. >> i think, look, what john boehner is trying to do, doug points out, is control a fra fractious caucus. he listened to the hell-no caucus within his caucus and

united republicans who do not like obamacare and given them something to rally around as they worry not about their democratic challengers but about being primaried on the right. and so this gives them something to take back to those conservatives who would outconservative them and say, look, we tried to kill obamacare. the question is, generally, about how do you make the transition from being a congressional party to a presidential party and the people who are most upset are independent voters and those are the people you need to win to win the white house. >> so when you look at the analysis of this. conventional wisdom is it hurts the republicans for re-election because they are facing threats from the right and can't win the middle. is it too early to make that verdict? >> yeah, way too early. we have so many news cycles to

come. when this were being called the affordable care act it might give the conservative people wiggle room. but it's like social security being fdr care or medicaid being lbj care. it's something that the republicans will be warring against next year. they don't want it to work. traditionally it should be a good time for the republicans because in those mid-term elections the party not in the white house usually does a little better. >> we shall see and see whether obamacare works or not. we'll be right back with the shutdown. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the

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