but republicans who said they'd do everything they could to stop or slow obama care have bn true to their word. since when does keeping your promise become grandstanding? as speaker boehner says, it's an issue of fairness. >> we would have funded the government through december 15th and provide fairness to the american people under obama care. no exemptionexemptions, no exce. >> it would be let everybody vote their conscience. that would be fair. unfortunately, we've not had that. that's why we have a shut down. we have democratic senator from michigan. we also have tom colburn from oklahoma. he's against obama care.

welcome to both of you. we're going to start with you. now you have been one of the voices of sanity. and from my point of view in this whole process saying we should not shut down the government. we are now in this ditch. the car is upside down. the wheels are spinning. how are we going to get out of this now from your point of view? >> i think anytime you have a conflict like this, the first thing you have to have is communication. you have to have the vision on how to get there. you have to create a way for everybody to save face, so they n walk away partly injured but still walk away. and you have to have some common sense. you know, this will play out. i was here in '95 and '96. i had a four year hiatus where i went back to my practice, but it's the same type of thing. it's leadership, van, leadership doesn't ath allow this to happen, whether it's republican leadership, presidential leadership or the democratic senate leadership. we have allowed this to happen

through failed leadership, not recognizing, not seeing the signs of polarization and trying to interrupt them. and we haven't seen that. and republicans are as guilty as democrats, and, i'll put a litt bit on the president. he knew this was coming. is it the advantageous politically? maybe. if you s it coming, try to stop it. have the talks. they haven't happened yet. they haven't happened between john bain eoehner and harry rei between john boehner and the president. >> i'l'll let se. >> what is your plan? we can't live in this ditch for the rest of our lives. >> we're talking about whether or not we will agree on funding the government for six weeks. government services from food safety to helping veterans to the cia, fbi.

what is on the floor right now is whether or not to continue funding for six weeks while we dohat tom's talking about, which is a larger effort to sit down. i agree that we need common sense. what we have right now is a situation, though, where we came together and said, you know, it's only six weeks of funding. so we're going to compromise and agree with the funding level that the republicans want. not a dollar ash more than what they're asking for for six weeks so we can get to the bigger question of the budget, the deficit and so on. but that unfortunately wasn't good enough. what we have is a minority of a minority of the minority in the house which has said no, we want to add to that the repeal of the affordable health insurance for up to 30 million people. last fall people voted at the ballot box that they wanted a president that would give them more afford ubl health

insurance. today they voted in front of thr computer by having five times more people go to health care.gov to try to get affordable insurance than any day of medicare.gov. they are saying we want health care. >> for a republican house, let me remind you. i want to press you on what you've described as kind of a political risk in shutting down the government. i'm not really sure why the shut down is such a gamble for republicans. are you really convinced that in november of 2014 voters are going to remember that one time they weren't allowed to visit the national park? or are they going to be thinking about and reeling from the effects of obama care that's been implementedor a year now. and is that going to be the thing that drives them to the polllike it did in 2010 to vote for republicans who oppose obama care? >> maybe. but the thing is, you have the

microphone of the president that is hundreds of thousands of times more power ful than the republicans. >> do you think they are going to say vote for democrats because the republicans shut down the government? >> no, but i think at the same time we're all here to govern and to make the best decisions, not for the short-term political career, but for the long term of the country. look. why would this degenerate to this level? and the only reason it has is because people have not displayed the leadership characteristics of a free country. >> it has got tten to this poin unfortunately, appreciate the position you have taken on this, but we do have a group of folks in the house that ran in 2010 saying elect me, i'll shut the government down, yay, yay, yay, from the tea party. and yet, they are happy today

because they finally did it. >> they were elected to oppose obama care. that's what they're doing. >> that's not right. that's not the minority of the minority. >> people are going to talk about in 2014, i'll tell you what they're going to talk about in michigan. that is a family of four in $50,000 a year in michigan is going to be able to get a basic comprehensive health care insurance plan for $80 a month, including maternity care, including lower prescription drug cost, including mental health care. >> what is the deductible on that? 4500 bucks. if they ever get sick what they're going to have is a promise of insurance, but not real insurance. let me make the point. >> right now they have nothing. >> you said a minority of a minority. last night, every one of t votes was over 218 votes. that is not a min ofrmt you take a position with your vote.

the vast majority of americans think this is a pretty risky experiment, what's called the affordable care act. i call it the affordable care act to emphasize that it's not going to be affordable. it's going to cost you, if you look at it, all the comparisons made in the fres is the price of the policy what they thought it was going to be not what it was before you could get obama care. so the out-of-pocket costs are going to be far greater for the average arican under the affordable care act if you don't count subsidy and if you count subsy. >> lets, first of all look at the fact that oklahoma which is one of the low cost policies openin up today. $63 a month, they're going to be able to get basic care as opposed to what they would get without this new reform of about $630 a month. and what we have to look at -- >> but there's no difference on -- >> let's, a lot of folks were

getting something several ndred a month that basically left them in a situation where if they got sick the insurance company could kick them off their insurance and did. or maybe they had a $5,000 cap so if they get sick they still go bankrupt, the still lose the house because there's no coverage. what we're talking about now, 8 million women in january will have the chance for the first time to buy basic maternity re. this is a good thing. >> i do want to take one step back to the poll siitics of thi. you said something that was kind of shocking to me. you said before you pass add budget with good stuff in it and then this continuing resolution comes across your desk that is lower than that. and you surrendered without a fight to go with the republican

continuing resoluon. ted cruz is fighting for what he believes in. isn't it bad politics for you to give away programs that you believe in and make concessions and now get stuck with a bad budget. >> first of all, we originally were talking about a sex-week continuing resolution while we worked out the larger effort to eliminate the sequester which is costs about 750,000 middle class jobs their year so that we could restore cancer research. >> i like that. you were fighting for that. >> but we were willing -- >> why? >> in the effort of compromise because we didn't want to see the government shut down. we didn't give up our principles. this is called governing in the united states of america, where believe it or not, you don't always get everything thaw want at the moment thaw want it. so we were willing to say, we

will give you six weeks of continued funding at a level that we brief does not support education innovation, growth in the economy in order to get a broader agreement that will move us forward. and instead, whate're hearing is that's not enough unless you potentially eliminate health care for 30 million people. >>. >> i thought, you're telling us now that we didn't compromise. we compromised and got no credit. >> that happens all the time. we're the ones trying to govern. we really do care in a democracy about governs. >> so her statement would s we don't care. that isn't true. the fact is, the sequester's never going to go away. what it's going to do is slowly increase the discretionary spending. if you study all these things, which i have for nine years, what you know is in our discretionary budget today, a quarter of a billion dollars of it is duplication, waste or fraud.

that's not my numbers, that's the gao. >> we're going to. could back acome back and talk those numbers in a while. but the republicans have excited. oh, look, that's bad. i think it makes my point, i'm going to ask you senator coburn to explain to me, if obama care is so terrible why are so many people trying to sign up that they're crashing the system? when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: recover and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do.

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>> welcome back to crossfire. today is the first day you can go online and sign up for health care through the obama care exchanges. now many people tried. so many people tried they crashed the system. now we're here with democratic senator debbie stab now and republican senator tom coburn. why is it the case if this is such a terrible program that so many people are signing up for they're crashing the system. >> it may not be the number. it may be the system. the system may suck. there are a couple points i think. number one, health care is a problem in our country. you know, the difference is we had no republican agree that this was the best way to fix it. as a matter of fact it didn't get one republican voigt in the house or senate. so theres with a way to do their where you didn't have this

polarization. i would posit to you that the two things that are out of control in our country that we're not doing well on are health care and education. both of those are majority controlled by the federal government. there's not anything the federal government does that doesn't cause things to cost more. you just name one. so why would we go in a direction that exacerbates the problems of the system we have now? there's some good things in the affordable care act, i won't deny that. i fought insurance companies my whole life. so there are some great things in it that i'm glad are there. but the overterm system is going to call us trillions of dollars. >> let me jump in there. remember this was based on massachusetts and what is called romney care and what everybody loves. rates have gone down.

more employers are covering people than before. what we're looking at is something based on private sector competition. and it's also saying, you know what? if you have insurance, you ought to get what you're paying for. you can't get dropped. >> let me ask you about the mechanics of this. because the whole thing to me seems to hinge on the idea that you will coerce millions of young people who really didn't want to buy insurance before obama care to suddenly buy it and in some cases buy it at a more expensive cost than before obama care. i'll just talk to you about detroit michigan, 27 year old single person will sigh a 150% increase in premiums, thanks to obama care. if you build it and no one comes, doesn't this whole thing collapse? >> well, yes, except they're coming because we saw crashing on the computers, because everybody's coming. >> the right people will have to come, right? >> let me talk to you about the

17 year old who will be able to find for the first time comprehensive basic care starting at $80 a month. what we are seeing now, across the country, is six out of ten people that haven't had insurance before are going to be able to find it for under a hundred dollars a month, including, and i have to keep stressing again, things like maternity care, preventive care, mental health, doctor visits, et cetera, et cetera. and here's the other reality of that. they walk into the emergency room, they get, they get care. we all pay for it. >> right. >> at the highest rates possible. everybody who has insurance is paying at least $1,000 more a year. so where's the personal responsibility? >> let me ask you a question. >> the reality to that is, is why would you pay a hundred dollars a month or $80 a month, when you can pay a $95 fine and if you get sick or get pregnant

you get care. so the point is, the economic -- >> the higher fine. >> sure. if you're going to have a, if -- >> the highest possible cost. we don't want that. >> make it economically incentive to put them into the group and this bill does not do that. >> we could make the fines higher. >> i know you have put a lot of thought into this. and i want to talk about this individual mandate which has been demonized. it is a very conservative principle. it is the individual responsibility mandate. nobody should be walking around in the united states without health care that can get it as the senator just said, expecting if they dive bomb themselves into the emergency room we're going to pick up the tab. to me, the individual mandate is conservative, it also is honest. because i know a lot of republicans say they want to keep this idea from obama care that nobody can be denied coverage. well, hold on a second. you can't get something for

nothing. if sick people are going to take out of the system, well people have to put into the system. why don't you support this? >> here's the difference is, if you want to have an individual mandate. give everybody the capability to have the same thing, all right? so what you do, if you really believe what you just said, give everybody a refundable tax credit. and let everybody the reason health care costs, 50% more than it should in this country is because there's not a real market and you won't get a real market with this. there won't be any transparency. if you give everybody a refundable tax credit in this country including the irresponsible biker who breaks his pelvis and we're all paying for it. the state, you're auto enroll if you don't enroll yourself in a high deductible plan so we spread the risk. we'll have the government run and decide what you will get by the different plans. we've decided what you'll get rather than you deciding. here's the thing that will happen. here's what people will see.

you will -- you're never going on see the same doctor year in and year out. >> time-out. time-out. first of all, in michigan, right now there are 43 different plans. all we're talking about is allowing small businesses and individuals to go into an insurance pool so they can get the same kind of rate and have the same kind of clout. >> the small business pool is not even available. >> it is coming online. and folks can go online. in another month they can sign up. there is no evidence, zero, zero, zero that folks are not going to be able to see the doctor that they want to see. none. ask the folks in massachusetts. not true. not true. >> in new hampshire, 12 of the main hospitals aren't even in the group. so if you live in new hampshire, here's 12 hospitals you used to be able to go to. you cannot go to any of them now. >> all i can tell you is that, first of all --

>> so there's no proof. that is true. >> i have no idea what's happening. >> that's right. you have no idea. that's why we're making claims that aren't accurate. ? in new hampshire, maybe we need to figure out what to do. >> to give you a better example, and you tell me what's wrong with this. in arkansas, which is a good red state, they've looked at this. you say the government will be mandating stuff themselves decided to create not a public option but a private option. they're bringing in insurance options. >> i'm sorry. with medicaid. >> medicaid dollars. and career creating little market places where people have choices. >> how did that happen? you had republicans and democrats come together and get creative. >> thud administration grant them an exemption. but not grant oklahoma one for theirs yx? because they have a democratic governor. oklahoma has a republican governor. so when we asked for something very creative, we were told no.

>> we weren't told no and we have a republican governor. did you have a reformed medical man? no. you're just expanding medicaid. >> not true. but all of this, as we look forward. we have to remember where we have come from here. the millions of people that couldn't find any kind of insurance or paid a lot of money and got almost nothing when they got sick, got kicked off. what we're talking about is how do we make this better? i'm not even suggesting that this is perfect. that we don't need to work on it. >> i know it's not perfect. >> i can tell you, it is a whole lot better than what tens of millions of americans have and women who have been discriminated against on their rates, who haven't been able to get preventive care. >> the government can buy your health care for you. >> this is not about government. >> oh, yes, it is. >> no, it's not. you're going on to a website. you are going to pick out your own insurance policy.

>> you're not going to. you have to. you have to. that's an offense. that's an offense. >> you have to have both these guys back. we have about 20 more questions we need to get to but i have one left. now, listen. the constitution says you have to keep your salaries. americans are mad about that. you've got congress people in the senate. you've got a young veteran who says she will give her salary back. people will give their salaries to charity. who are you giving your salaries away to? i'm sure you won't keep them because your poor staffers are suffering. >> my staffers are working. >> without pay. >> no, no, my staffers are working with pay. right now. they're doing oversight on the federal government. they're continuing to work on the -- >> 800,000 federal boringers are not. >> noeg is for that. >> i'm going to keep my salary and make sure i spend it and tithe and it give to it charities and do the thing that i've always done good for you.

>> i'm not going to stop working. >> 80% of my staff is on furlough. i'm going to be contributing mine on a daily basis for every day we are not seeing a government open, i'm contributing. >> thank you. next we cease fire and see if there is anything we can agree on. ♪ [ male announcer ] let's go places. but let's be ready. ♪ let's do our homework. ♪ let's look out for each other. let's look both ways before crossing. ♪ let's remember what's important. let's be optimistic. but just in case -- let's be ready. toyota. let's go places, safely.

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tonight on "cross fire,"

we've been debating the government shutdown. let's call a cease fire. is there anything we can agree on? republicans made an offer on a piecemeal approach that would fund certain seconders of the government. the white house immediately rejected and it nancy pelosi called that a athleticic. i think that you and i would agree that we have to get certain sectors of the economy back online. veterans services, for example. >> i think the one thing we can agree on is that veterans should not suffer in this situation. i agree that i don't like ted cruz, now speaker of the house and senator and i guess king of america, saying this will open, this won't hope. he is right about the veterans and we should make sure the veterans don't suffer. >> hopefully we can come together and make it happen. to go our facebook page or on twitter and weigh in on our fire back question. should members of congress be paid during the government shutdown? right now 3% of you say yes. 97% say no.