>> the rhetoric heating up on day four of the government shutdown, as the behind the scenes talks begin on the next showdown. the debt ceiling. we'll talk about all of it with the former defense secretary, leon panetta. and congresswoman michele bachmann is here with us as well. i'll ask her if she said a shutdown is exactly what republicans want. plus, new details on the woman killed by police in the car chase that ended outside the capitol, including medication found in her home that may provide important clues. i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." there's a breaking news happening, very disturbing information coming in, reports we're getting of a man who may have set himself on fire here in washington on the national mall. let's go straight to brian todd. he's got the latest. what happened, brian? >> reporter: well, we were just down here on the national mall and we were diverted to an area

near the air and space museum. people who are not familiar with washington, may not know exactly where that is but it's in the middle of the mall. people have told us they had reports of a man on fire. it is unclear if he set himself on fire or whether he was set on fire by other means, but he was airlifted out. he was apparently experiences serious injuries. we got there in time to see police and emts airlifting him out, and that's what we know now. that a man apparently was on fire near the air and space museum, right near the middle of the mall where we observed police and emts and a chopper there to get him out of there. again, unclear, according to police, whether he set himself on fire or whether he was lit on fire by other means. >> information on the condition of this man right now? >> reporter: that's not clear at this time. we were literally there about five minutes ago, maybe ten

minutes ago when they airlifted the man out. so his condition right now is unclear to us. >> brian, let us know what you find out. that's a disturbing report coming a day after what happened here in washington yesterday, that car chase and that shooting. brian, we'll stay in close touch with you. it's the end of the work week for many americans but for a growing number, there was no work, no pay, due to the government shutdown and it's only going to get worse. defense contractor lockheed martin for example says it will now furlough 3,000 workers starting monday due to the shutdown, now in its fourth day. here in washington, lots of heated talk but little concrete action to solve the crisis, even with the next one looming. the u.s. will hit its debt ceiling in less than two weeks. our chief congressional correspondent dana bash begins our coverage this hour. what is the very latest on capitol hill? is there any movement at all? >> reporter: no. there is nothing i would like to report to you more than news of a breakthrough but i simply

can't. in fact, it doesn't look like any breakthrough any time soon. this government shutdown could last awhile. john boehner came to cameras with a copy of the "wall street journal," quoting an anonymous administration official to help make a dramatic point. >> it says we don't care how long this lasts, because we're winning. this isn't some damn game. >> reporter: the theatrics and language were vintage boehner. remember this? >> we should not have to move a third bill before the senate gets off their ass and begins to do something. >> reporter: and this, during the 2009 health care debate. >> nope, we don't have time to do that. >> reporter: a democratic group released its own made for tv moment, literally. this ad comparing boehner to a crybaby, demanding his way or nothing. >> speaker john boehner didn't get his way on shutting down health care reform. >> reporter: the problem for republicans, it's no longer clear what they're demanding from democrats to reopen the government. when asked that question, boehner said this. >> we sent four bills to the

united states senate. four different positions, trying to soften our position to get the senate interested in keeping the government open and bringing fairness to the american people under obama care. >> reporter: still, republicans are right that democrats won't negotiate. >> he needs something. he needs a lifeline in order to save face, in order to agree. you're not giving him one bit. >> how about my lifeline? we agreed to $980 billion, $70 billion less than what my caucus voted for and agreed to. don't talk about his lifeline. talk about mine. >> reporter: even as the parties battle for the upper hand in the shutdown blame game, behind the scenes, they're bracing for the next fight, in less than two weeks, october 17th. congress must raise the debt limit or face default. >> i don't believe that we should default on our debt. it's not good for our country. >> reporter: cnn is told privately boehner told colleagues he's willing to raise the debt ceiling with democratic help and without a majority of republicans, which he's unwilling to do to reopen the

government. but boehner also told his rank and file friday the president must negotiate, give in on something to chip away at the country's debt. his message to you all is i'm not rolling over on the debt ceiling? >> yes, he actually used that term. we're going to continue to use the debt ceiling as a tool, as a leverage point, to require both sides to come to the table and to negotiate for what's best for america. >> reporter: it's really unclear how that debt ceiling issue is going to be resolved, but it is becoming more and more likely that the government shutdown won't really be addressed until we get closer to that deadline on the debt ceiling, which again is just under two weeks away. >> i just want to be precise and make sure there's no confusion. what exactly do we know the speaker told some of his republican colleagues yesterday about allowing a straight up or down vote to go forward to raise the debt ceiling without any extraneous conditions like obama care, for example, attached to that kind of effort? >> reporter: we have not heard any republicans say that the

speaker has said privately at all that he's willing to do what's known as a clean debt ceiling with nothing attached. what we do say -- what we do hear is what i put in the piece, is that he is having discussions about some kind of negotiation that they might be able to present, or position they might be able to present to the democrats to raise the debt ceiling, but again, he would have to get something in return, something dealing with the debt, and if they could do that, maybe then he would be willing to pass an increase in the debt ceiling with democratic support, but maybe not even the majority of republican support. that's something he's not willing to do right now on the shutdown but maybe he would be willing to do we're told on the debt ceiling, but only if democrats negotiate which they're saying they're not willing to do. >> we'll see what happens on that front. thanks very much for that clarification, dana. president obama and the vice president joe biden took their message out of the white house. they walked to a popular washington sandwich place earlier in the day, where the president restated his challenge to the house speaker.

>> before i order, i just want to say that part of the reason we're here is we're starving and the food here is great. the other part of it, though, is that right now, this establishment is providing a 10% discount to all federal workers who are on furlough. plus a cookie. this shutdown could be over today. we know there are the votes for it in the house of representatives. as i said yesterday, if speaker boehner will simply allow that vote to take place, we can end this shutdown when it comes to negotiations, i've said i am happy to have negotiations with the republicans and speaker boehner on a whole range of issues, but we can't do it with a gun held to the head of the american people. >> strong words from the president. let's talk about it with republican congresswoman michele bachmann of minnesota.

thanks very much for joining us. >> thank you. >> so when the president says that, he's willing to negotiate but not with a gun pointed to his head, to the head of the american people, what do you say? >> well, what i say is that the president hasn't been willing to negotiate. we want to. we have sent bills over to the president, we have said let's sit down, let's have conferees come together and it hasn't happened. i met with all of the republican women in the house of representatives today and we are putting a letter together to the president. we come from very wide, broad backgrounds. we want to sit down with the president of the united states. we have a lot of great ideas on how we can solve this problem. so we're happy to take him up on negotiating. if he's just saying that maybe he will sit down and have a beer summit but he's not interested in deviating from his position, we think that we can get to yes. >> he says he's willing to negotiate on all of these issues including health care, but first make sure the government shutdown ends and raise the debt ceiling, then everything can be worked out down the road. >> okay.

so let's pull that apart. the president is saying fully fund the government, don't talk about -- don't negotiate on any of the programs, on how much we're spending, and then keep giving him all the money that he wants in order to keep spending, so then what is there left to talk about? this is the whole -- >> they're willing to fund the government at the paul ryan level of spending, not what the democrats wanted. that already represents a major concession. >> well, there is no major concession, because what's called the sequester levels, the level of spending that we agreed on, that's actually saving money for the first time two years in a row since the korean war, this is working for the american people. >> he accepts that. as part of this temporary continuing resolution. >> we say that is great, but the president is saying i'll negotiate after you give me everything i want. well, then, what is there left to negotiate on? >> the only thing he's asking for is there be no government

shutdown and the debt ceiling is increased. >> that's everything. >> why is that everything? isn't that your job to fund the government and to make sure the u.s. does not go into default? >> well, our job under article one of the constitution, we hold the purse so to speak. we hold the credit card for this country. we're the ones who make the decision in the house of representatives, the most powerful part of government was meant to be by our founders the house of representatives, we're the closest to the people, we're elected every two years. we're the ones who decide how much to raise taxes or lower taxes. we decide the spending. that's our job. >> but they disagree with you. you need the senate. you can't do it by yourself. you have to be willing to work together. >> that's our job. >> after you finish your job, the senate has to approve it. they're not willing to do what you want but in the meantime, there's 13 days left, for example, until the debt ceiling has to -- you appreciate what would happen to the u.s. economy

if the debt ceiling were not increased? >> i'm a former federal tax litigation attorney. i absolutely appreciate and understand what will happen. that's why i signed a bill -- >> so if boehner puts a bill out there to raise the debt ceiling without any strings attached, will you vote for it? >> that's why i signed a bill that is the full faith and credit act to make sure we never, ever default. the markets need to know that under no circumstances will the united states government default. no republican will be willing to allow the government to default. >> you won't allow it to default on october 17th. >> absolutely not. >> here's what the president said yesterday, because once again, you are one of his favorite republicans, he was ridiculing something you said in a speech in rockville, maryland. i'll play the clip. >> getting under his skin. >> another said a shutdown is exactly what we wanted. well, they got exactly what they wanted. now they're trying to figure out how to get out of it.

>> that was -- >> a lot of times the media gets it wrong. now the president of the united states is getting wrong quotes. >> i think it was a quote in the "the washington post" where you were quoted, i will give you a chance to tell us if this is accurate, where you were quoted in "the washington post" as saying we are very excited, it's exactly what we wanted and got it. >> right. and what we wanted is the ability to be able to put on the floor what we agree on, because we were having problems getting to yes, getting to agreement on obama care, so we had our full republican conference that was agreeing on the strategy of let's put bills on the floor that democrats can agree on, too. let's start funding the parts of government that we can both agree on. that's why we decided veterans, we can all agree on that. we can all agree on opening up these memorials in washington, d.c. that's what i was saying. this is what we can all get at. this is what we were all very excited about. it was an excellent strategy because it's the ultimate -- >> that quote in "the washington

post" you weren't referring -- you didn't want a government shutdown? >> absolutely not. the quote was wrong and the president had misquoted me as well, probably taking it inadvertently from the "the washington post" that got it wrong. but the whole point is that let's do what we can do for the american people. there's a lot of things we can agree on. let's get that done and then work on the part that we don't agree o. >> here's from today's editorial in the "wall street journal" which is a conservative editorial page. i'll read it to you and get your reaction. mr. obama is simply not going to delay or defund his signature legislation, and the political irony is that instead of learning about the glitches and problems of the health law's rollout this week, the public is hearing only about the gop willingness to punish other americans to get rid of obama care. the cruz republicans, ted cruz, the senator, the cruz republicans have helped mr. obama change the subject from his faulty program to their political tactics.

you agree with the "wall street journal" on that point that this is all a blunder to link obama care to keeping the government open? >> absolutely not. because all we've seen is the disaster of the rollout of the president's plan. >> a lot of people aren't focused on that because the shutdown has bypassed that. >> all you have to do is go to the facebook page of the official site for the health care exchange and look at the comments from single moms, from minorities who are saying i can't afford this health care bill. it took me three days, maybe 60 hours worth of trying to finally get on. when i got on, i found out that i'm making $8.55 an hour, i can't afford this insurance. my insurance was cheaper before i got to obama care. that's not michelle bachmann. that's the people going on the site. this is a disaster. that message is loud and clear. particularly with people -- >> maybe in the first day. the second day, third day,

fourth day, it's sort of quieting down. >> not at all because the disaster continues to roll. as a matter of fact, now we know that something like over 2,000 people's social security numbers have been breached. that happened in minnesota before. we had over 1,000 social security numbers that were breached. people are very nervous about the privacy. people are very, very unsure what's happening. >> when you say social security numbers, i haven't heard anything about that. >> there was an inadvertent disclosure of people's social security numbers through the exchanges in minnesota. it was a state employee who was working on our obama care health insurance exchange. they hit a button and sent it out publicly. the information wasn't secured or encrypted and well over i think 1600 social security numbers were dispersed. privacy is a big issue for americans. it would be for you, it would be for me. no one wants their social security number disclosed. that's what people are worried about. plus, one of the health sites on health and human services has

gotten hacked into. so these are the kind of things that are continuing to happen. it's a disaster rollout and we are going to keep hearing more about it. >> we will keep talking about it. >> i look forward to it. >> michele bachmann, the republican congresswoman from minnesota. thanks for coming down. up next, the new democratic attack ad against the house speaker john boehner, it portrays him as a crybaby. will it change anything? also, he was the white house chief of staff during the last two government shutdowns. i'll ask leon panetta what advice he has about this current crisis. plus new information we're getting in to "the situation room" about the young mother who led police on that car chase to the capitol, ending with her being shot to death with her daughter in the back seat. investigators have some important new clues. we'll share them with you. [ male announcer ] this store knows how to handle a saturday crowd.

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thrown hundreds of thousands of people out of work for now. let's talk about this and more with cnn political commentator, washington correspondent ryan lizza, candy crowley, the anchor of "state of the union" and chief national security correspondent, jim sciutto. michele bachmann, she's not budging at all and it's not just michele bachmann. there's a whole group in the house and the senate who are with her, with ted cruz, your guest this sunday, they're not willing to budge and the president is not willing to budge when it comes to no negotiations, at least not in the context of the government shutdown and raising the debt ceiling. so where do we go? >> who knows. i think the reason that we don't know is they don't know. i just don't think there's anyone around there with a plan d. everybody is sticking with their plan a which is not to budge. i would also add that it's not just that 35 to 45 tea party type. let's remember that all but a

handful of the republican party voted for each and every bill that went over to the senate that had to do -- so it's not just oh, he's being driven by these 35 or 40 people. this is the entire caucus. from what we heard from john boehner today, no movement. what did we hear from reid, majority leader reid in the senate and from the president? no movement. >> how do we get out of this mess? you have been reporting on it and you have even suggested there may be a way for the president to help john boehner get out of this mess. >> maybe the two big developments over the last 48 hours are one, that boehner reportedly told some of these colleagues that he will put a debt ceiling increase on the floor and pass it with democratic votes if it comes to that. that's potentially good news. may undercut his bargaining position, the fact that that's out there publicly. then the second thing is that boehner has been trying to get what might be called a mini bargain, not the grand bargain, but trying to get some proposal go back to entitlement cuts,

basically deal with entitlement cuts and get rid of sequestration, increase discretionary spending. i don't see how he really sells that to his republican conference. they got into this fight on obama care, not entitlements or sequestration. two, i really don't see any evidence that the white house is about to throw him that lifeline. look, as things -- i think the white house strategy right now is increase the pressure, increase the pain on the house republicans, get them to cave and absolutely stick to the no negotiation posture. at some point, they may have to come off that because at some point people may be fed up with obama as much as the republicans. >> people all over the world are watching what's happening here in the united states and there are real national security concerns emerging from this government shutdown. it will be a whole lot worse if the debt ceiling isn't raised. >> it's image and substance. from an image perspective, it's disastrous. this is not just superficial. it's about soft power. when you are trying to market the u.s. system as a model around the world, this does not look good. the state department was even reading some of these headlines

in the briefing today, we found some of our own in spain. politics of hate are pushing the u.s. to the brink of economic collapse. a russian state newspaper, the elephants are robbing the u.s. government. elephants, of course, republican party. my favorite in france, jefferson, wake up, they have gone crazy. but there is substance here as well. the president was going to go to asia in part to sell a new free trade agreement for the region, a priority in the second term. it's not going to happen. john kerry, capable diplomat but the countries will notice the president is not there. on iran sanctions, the treasury department says they don't have the teams in place to monitor these sanctions. also, the pivot to asia, this was another priority in the second term, rebalancing to asia. when the president doesn't show up for these conferences, that has weight. >> candy, there's a new ad the democrats plan on running in john boehner's home district in ohio during the football game on sunday. let me play a little clip.

>> speaker john boehner didn't get his way on shutting down health care reform, so he shut down the government and hurt the economy. >> all right. this is getting tougher and tougher and tougher. >> it is, but i wouldn't say speaker boehner is in trouble in his district. last time around, he ran unopposed. last time i looked, he scores in the 60s and 70s generally. so i think this is meant more as we play it, other people play it, a tweak at him rather than anything with specific political intent. maybe they drive down his numbers. tough the see john boehner in trouble in his district >> you have a world class lineup sunday morning, ted cruz, senator from texas, jack liu,

treasury secretary. we'll be watching. when we come back, dramatic new details emerging about the 34-year-old suspect killed in that chase on capitol hill yesterday. what authorities now say they found in her home. plus, did police have any options other than to shoot and kill that woman? just ahead, we take a closer look at whether the use of force in this particular case was appropriate. stay with us. you're in "the situation room." the day my doctor told me i had diabetes,

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just one day since that dramatic car chase that ended in explosive gunfire on capitol hill, we're now learning dramatic new details about the suspect, the 34-year-old woman, miriam carey, shot and killed by police. a source says authorities found medications for certain mental disorders in her home. we're also learning from a source that her boyfriend suspected she was delusional. cnn national correspondent deborah feyerick has been working this story for us and is joining us now with the very latest on the investigation. deb, what do we know? >> reporter: well, what we're learning is this. first of all, her family traveled to washington, d.c. earlier this afternoon and did identify miriam carey's body at

the medical examiner's office. that was earlier this afternoon. the sister sat down with anderson cooper and says that miriam did experience post-partum depression with psychosis, that she had had a momentary breakdown and she did undergo treatment, both medications but also counseling as well. we want to clarify something. that is when authorities searched her stamford, connecticut home, what they found was discharge papers from a mental health evaluation back in december. on those discharge papers, there were actually prescriptions for medication to treat both schizophrenia, bipolar disorder as well as a prescription for an antidepressant. so clearly, something was going on. we spoke to a source who said that in fact, the boyfriend had been questioned by police because he had called police saying that she was acting delusionally, that she thought that president obama was electronically surveilling her house, had put her town on lockdown, and so he notified police because he felt that the

baby who at the time was 4 months old, was in danger. so clearly, there was something going on. what they're investigating now is why carey felt a need to go to the white house. what was it that she was trying to accomplish. all of that right now under investigation. >> a mystery indeed. what about the child? the little girl, a year old, what do we know about her condition, where is she right now? >> reporter: well, the amazing thing is this mother put that child in the car on thursday for this drive down to washington, d.c. it's a couple hundred miles away. and police had no idea that that little girl, 13 months old, was actually in the back seat of the car. there was some clothing that had been taken with her. when they opened fire, they killed the mother but the child miraculously survived. she is in the custody of child and family service agency in washington, d.c. she is with a foster family but efforts are being made in order to connect her with her biological family. >> let's see what happens on that front.

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lots of questions being raised now about how police here in washington handled the entire incident up on capitol hill yesterday and whether they were justified in shooting miriam carey. brian todd is working this part of the story for us. brian, what's going on, what are you learning? >> reporter: wolf, as you mentioned, very serious questions being asked all day today by legal experts, law

enforcement experts, and others. one central question, could this have ended without the suspect being killed. the police are not saying anything about that right now, citing an investigation. so we asked our experts. an emergency dispatcher delivered an early warning. >> got news reports of shots fired near the capitol. use caution approaching the scene. >> reporter: here's a description of one of the scenes where suspect miriam carey was stopped and police shot and killed her. >> as soon as she made a move and was trying to put the car in reverse and speed away, shots were fired. >> reporter: but now, some questioned whether police used enough caution. >> at that precise moment, if the police did not see an imminent threat to themselves, if she did not turn on them, look like she was going to a gun, something to at that point say the threat is ongoing and it is immediate and imminent, then maybe the police should have taken a breath, waited -- >> reporter: neither the capitol

hill police, washington metropolitan police or the secret service would comment on that, citing an investigation. as we dissected the car chase drama on video, i ran the question by cnn law enforcement analyst tom fuentes. why not, as mark o'mara said, take a breath, assess it and try to avoid shooting her there? >> because how do those police officers know she's really stopped? she was stopped once by the barricades at the white house. that didn't stop her. she was stopped theoretically at the beginning of this video on three sides with hfl half a dozen officers pointing guns at her. that didn't stop her. >> reporter: law enforcement experts say they feel there's another reason why they had to shoot at this suspect. this played out near two high profile terrorist targets, the white house and the capitol. fuentes says at that moment, officers didn't know anything about the driver or what she had in that vehicle. >> does she have explosives in it and pose a greater danger. is she just looking for a large gathering of people she can drive up close to them and

explode a bomb. >> reporter: should police have instead shot at her tires to disable the car? >> if they did shoot the tires out, the car can keep moving. if it did have a bomb or other kind of weapon they were trying to get to the white house, trying to get into the u.s. capitol, it still would not do anything. >> reporter: mike brooks and tom fuentes also say the fact that miriam carey didn't turn out to have a firearm or a bomb in the vehicle doesn't mean she did not have a weapon. they say she was driving a 3,000 pound weapon and she used it twice to strike police officers. wolf? >> brian todd reporting for us. thank you very much. please be sure to tune in to "ac 360" later tonight, 8:00 p.m. eastern. anderson will have an exclusive interview with miriam carey's sisters. he will join us, by the way, with a preview of that exclusive interview coming up at the top of the next hour. stay with us for that. just ahead, my interview with leon panetta. he's held so many top positions in washington over the years,

played a key role in the last government shutdown. i'll ask him how to fix the current crisis. and we're following the breaking news. we're going to hear from witnesses to that horrible scene, a man here in washington on fire on the national mall. if yand you're talking toevere rheuyour rheumatologistike me, about trying or adding a biologic. this is humira, adalimumab. this is humira working to help relieve my pain. this is humira helping me through the twists and turns. this is humira helping to protect my joints from further damage. doctors have been prescribing humira for over ten years. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. for many adults, humira is proven to help relieve pain and stop further joint damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events, such as infections, lymphoma, or other types of cancer, have happened.

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calls the government shutdown a tragic moment for the united states. leon panetta played a critical role in ending the last shutdown some 17 years ago. we'll get his advice on the current crisis, what needs to be done to end it.

many washington veterans are viewing the current shutdown with dismay, especially those who went through the last shutdown some 17, almost 18 years ago, and the damage that resulted from it. and leon panetta is joining us right now. leon panetta has a wealth of

experience here in washington, not only serving as the defense secretary, the cia director earlier, the white house chief of staff, the budget director, a long-time member of the house of representatives. mr. secretary, if anyone can come up with a solution to solve this crisis in washington, i suspect it's you. how would you fix this immediate crisis, the government shutdown? >> well, wolf, you know, i think the first thing is that everybody's going to have to kind of put politics aside for the moment and take the steps that are necessary to deal with this crisis. i think it's a two-step process. number one, the speaker has to allow the house to vote on both a clean cr as well as a lift in the debt ceiling and extend both of those through mid-december. and at the same time, i think they ought to convene a

conference on the budget so that they can negotiate, both sides can negotiate on the issues that are important for them to focus on, on entitlement programs and discretionary spending, on tax reform, with the hope that they can come up with some kind of deal that could deal with both the deficit and the sequester problem. that is a way to try to put government back in the place it should be. >> that sounds like a pretty reasonable idea to get through this immediate crisis on the government shutdown, raising the debt ceiling. why aren't they, both sides, accepting your advice? i assume they accept the possibility of a two-tier program like that as well. >> well, i would hope that they would. i mean, i think right now, you know, both sides are kind of caught up in trying to stare the other side down, and i understand the politics of that, but you know, this shutdown is doing terrible damage to this

country. members of congress are sworn to protect and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. this shutdown is not only hurting innocent people in this country, it's not only hurting our economy, it's hurting our national defense and they have an obligation and a responsibility to get the government going again. >> if the president asked you for some advice, what should he as the commander in chief, as the president of the united states, be doing right now to end this shutdown and raise the debt ceiling? >> i think the president needs to have a quiet conversation with the speaker, you know, not with a bunch of people around, not with cameras around, not with the rest of the leadership around, but just a quiet conversation to try first of all to restore some degree of trust so they can talk about how they

do deal with this. but i think the path forward is pretty clear. the speaker is going to have to allow the house to do what he has always talked about, which is regular orders. allow the house to be able to express itself through a majority vote, get a clean cr passed, get a lifting of the debt ceiling so we don't face that crisis, move it all to december, then begin negotiating. that's what everybody's talking about. that's what the speaker's talking about. that's what the president's talking about. and you can negotiate on the key issues involving entitlements and discretionary spending, tax reform, and try to come up with some kind of deal that would help restore confidence in this country that we can govern. >> if the president were to call john boehner in, the speaker, just the two of them without harry reid, nancy pelosi, mitch mcconnell or anyone else, just the two of them, let's say they came up with an agreement and they worked it out. here's the

well, you know, i understand that, you know, that's the concern. obviously it's the concern that the speaker has to whether or not, you know, his republicans would back him up, but this is a point at which the interests of the country are a hell of a lot more important than the parties. this country is hurting right now. and i think what you need to do is to allow the house of both democrats and republicans to vote on this issue. i suspect you can get a majority of republicans, along with a majority of democrats, supporting a clean c.r., supporting a lifting of the debt ceiling, in torrid to allow room to negotiate. that's what you've got to do here. i think responsible people on both sides ought to have a chance to be able to express themselves. you know, you can't let the

extremists control the party. we had extremes when i was in the congress, there were extremes always on both sides of the aisles. you've got to govern by people that will take a responsible approach to what needs to be done in order to protect this country. >> i'm really worried about those 400,000 civilian defense department employees, who have now been furloughed. the longer this goes on, the more the national security risk grow, but you're a former defense secretary, former director of the cia, is this a real source of concern? >> absolutely. s i am very concerned about the message we are sending our adversaries in the world. we are sending a message of weakne weakness, that the united states can for the govern itself. that's the worst kind of message to send to a very dangerous world. at the same time, over 70% of

our intelligence personnel are on furlough, so we're not gathering the kind of intelligence we absolutely have to gather to protect this country. we have cut to 50% of the civilian work force at d.o.d., who are also on furlough, so that our military, even though they are there, are not getting the support they need. so all of this is impacting on our readiness, and our ability to be able to defend ourselves. this is a tragic moment for the united states. and a very dangerous world, we are taking steps to weaken the united states, in terms of our national security. members need to understand, that is a price we cannot afford to pay in the kind of world we live in. >> and as serious as they national security concerns are, from what i'm hearing from all sources of economists and treasury department officials, if the debt ceiling is not raised, it won't only impact the u.s. economy, the economy could

go into a deep recession, it would impact the global economy, but speak as a former budget director as the head of the office of management and budget. >> well, you know, the -- the debt limit is something that is critical to our ability to maintain our economy. it's that simple. you know, if the debt limit is not lifted and we don't maintain the full faith and credit of the united states, then it's going to badly damage our economy, and it's going to, again, hurt not only our economy but people. that's what bothers me most of all about all of this, wolf, is that, you know, when you're elected to represent people, you're elected to protect them, not to hurt them, not to hurt our economy, not to hurt our national defense. you swear to not only defend this country, but to fulfill

your duties as a representative of the people. when people are being deliberately hurt, when our economy is being deliberately hurt, these members in many ways are violating the very oath of office. >> leon panetta, former defense secretary, mr. secretary, thanks very much. >> thank you, wolf. good to be with you. at the top of the hour, the sisters of the driver killed in the capitol hill chase speak inclusively with cnn's anderson cooper. anderson is standing by to join us live. neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it.

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because what you dont know can hurt you.urance, what if you didn't know that it's smart to replace washing-machine hoses every five years? what if you didn't know that you might need extra coverage for more expensive items? and what if you didn't know that teen drivers are four times more likely to get into an accident? 'sup the more you know, the better you can plan for what's ahead. talk to farmers and get smarter about your insurance. ♪ we are farmers bum - pa - dum, bum - bum - bum -bum ♪ at the top of the hour, the sisters of the driver speak to anderson cooper. non-insulin vi. for a while, i took a pill to lower my blood sugar, but it didn't get me to my goal. so i asked my doctor about victoza®. he said victoza® is different than pills.

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>> i was on a run, and when i go the to this block in the mall, the middle of the mall, i saw a man sitting in flames. he had already doused himself in gasoline. i saw his gas can. there were about six or five people with trying to put out the fire, trying to bat it out. >> >> reporter: was the man screaming at all? >> no, he was also facing away from me. let's go to brian todd. what else do we know? >> reporter: we found out that the man is now at the hospital s no word on his immediate condition. he was airlithed out of there, just next to the air and space museum. you heard about the people trying to tamp out hi -- not

clear. the police are not say necessarily the fire is out now. that scene is pretty much cleared, and what we were told is at the scene, the man was reported to be conscious and breathing. wolf? >> brian todd will stay on top of the story. thank you. happening now, a cnn exclusive with the sisters of the woman who led police on a wild car chase here in washington. anderson cooper spoke with them. he's standing by live. plus shut down the lunch orders. the president gets takeout, tells republicans to end the shutdown, but speaker boehner isn't biting. >> this isn't some damned game. >> a shutdown outrage. a republican congressman berates a park ranger for doing her job. how government workers are coping with cutbacks and stress. we want to welcome or viewers in the united states and around the world. i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room."

right now we're learning more about a 34-year-old woman's state of mind when she ran the barricade near the white house, leading police on a dangerous chase to the u.s. capitol. miriam carey's sisters spoke exclusively to cnn about her psychological problems. she was shot and killed be police, and after forcing congress into lockout. anderson cooper interviewed the sisters just a while ago. anderson, how did it go? >> i talked to valerie and amy carey. amy carey says it still doesn't feel real, that the woman they knew, their sister, miriam carey, they were stunned. they didn't even know she was in d.c. she lived in stamford, connecticut. she says at this point it

doesn't make sense. i did ask amy carey about various reports that skids phrenic medication was found at her house. here's what she told me about her mental health history. >> i just know that my sister did experience postum depression with psychosis. they labeled it, which came along with treatment of medication and counseling, which she did. and she had her challenges with that. that's what, um, she was being treated for. she had her challenges as a new parent, and i always spoke closely with her. i am a parent. i have two children. she was just like anyone else. we dealt with that as a family, but there was nothing out of the ordinary. >> did she seem in recent days to be off medication, or to be unstable? >> no. she didn't appear to be

unstable. >> wolf, amy also told me that her sister until a doctor's supervision had been tapering off her medication and had stopped her medication. she said it was under a doctor's supervision, that was always part of the treatment plan for the postpartum depression with the psychosis. amy made a point of saying her sister was not skids phrenic, did not have bipolar disorder, at least wasn't dug diagnosed with either of those things units my heart goes out to them, to the entire family. do they have a clue about what may have been motivated her, put her baby in the car, drive from the new york area down to washington and show up at that blockade, if you will, outside the white house? and get into this chase with the local police? >> they don't, frankly. i asked both sisters if there was a pattern in the psychotic behavior and psychosis that her sister exhibited, whether she focused on president obama or

politics, anything like that. they want no, it wasn't a pattern, it wasn't like that, that their sister wasn't political in any way, that she was a good mother, a caring person who, you know, stayed in touch with her family. they said her sister wasn't like wandering around incoherently, she sought treatment, got treatment. she said frankly they still have a lot of questions, concerns, about how their sister's life ended. here is more of what amy said. >> we will never know what miriam was thinking in those last hours before she died t we can only speculate, and our real concern is why and were thing done properly? like was there some other way

that she could have been helped, so that it didn't end tragically. >> and they are still trying to figure out what exactly happened there. eagerly awaiting the results of the investigation, which is obviously still ongoing, wolf. we'll air it later on anderson cooper 306. let's bring in jeff garr deer, who is joining us now. when you hear what the sisters are saying, the reports about the medications, the prescriptions found, what goes through your mind? >> well, certainly we know postpartum psychosis, which appears to be what she was experiencing, may have been a graduation from the postpartum depression. yes, we do treat with antipsychotic medication, along with antidepressants. they're saying, and i totally believe them, that she didn't act in a psychotic manner all the time, but yet it doesn't

mean that there aren't delusional thoughts. you asked anderson what may have been set this off. i wonder if something having to do with the government shutdown and some of the delusions she had around president obama, allegedly, around she heard president obama may have been spying on her, and may have had stamford on lockdown, thinking at one point she might have gone a prophet tess, so there was a lot of delusional thinking going on. >> what can you tell us about the two medication, and i hope, restridio, and -- i probably mangled both those pronunciations, but tell me about the two drugs. the respareidon is used to tree schizophrenia, and also if they have a bimore mania. sometimes that mania may also take them into a psychotic state. the second medication, the brand

name we use is lexepro, used mostly for depression. a lot of times those combinations of medications are used in order to get the person much more stable, to bring down the delusional paranoid thinking, but also to control that mania that we see that may be part of the psychosis? >> and the sisters said we may never know, and the fact is this woman is now dead. thank you, jeff. >> yes, my pleasure. and be sure to watch anderson cooper's interview later, 8:00 p.m. eastern, only here on cnn. up next, president obama makes a statement about the government shutdown by going out to lunch. and a huge defense contractor feels the pain from a shutdown, along with several thousand of its workers.

the toll will rise after a harrowing shipwreck off the i hadly that killed including four children. last word, 200 people are unaccounted for. the ship carrying migrants from africa caught fire, capsized a half mile off a small italian island. more news right after this. ?hña @8@x

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on this fourth day of the government shutdown, president obama and john boehner found new ways to get their messages across. the one got testy, the other got turkey. let's go to jim accosto, who has more. >> reporter: day four of the government shutdown felt a lot like groundhog day with the white house and house republicans both trying to score political points and showing no signs of compromise, but then something unusual happened here. the president decided to go for a walk. with an appetite to deliver one more message on the shutdown, president obama and vice president biden walked through the gates of the white house and down pennsylvania avenue to grab a sandwich. the president told reporters he selected the restaurant based on its discounts to furloughed

workers. >> and that i think, you know, is an indication of how ordinary americans look out for each other. >> reporter: but the white house was clearly chewing on something else, namely this article in the "wall street journal," that cited an unnamed senior administration official said of the shutdown -- we are winning. it doesn't matter how long the shutdown lasts. what matters is the end result. white house press secretary jay carney said on twitter that we utterly disavow that, but by then it was the quote of the day for house speaker john boehner. >> this morning i get the "wall street journal" out, and it says we don't care how long this lasts, because we're winning. this isn't some damn game. the american people don't want their government shut down, and neither do i. all we're asking for is to sit down and have a discussion. >> reporter: it wasn't a winning comment with the president, either.

>> there's no winning. when family don't have certainty about whether they're going to be paid or now. >> as the word played out with the #letstalk and the democrats saying just vote. >> we can't do it with the gun held at the head of the american people. so reopen the government, make sure we're paying our bills. >> reporter: the white house warned of the shutdown's impact, noting the president had to cancel a trip to asia. the administration pointed out nearly the entire staff of the treasury department that maintains sanctioning on iran and syria has been furloughed. as he returned from lunch, the president said it's up to republicans to get thought and other government functions back up and running.

and some late-breaking news here at the white house on the issue that really prompted this government shutdown. that's obama care, wolf, late this afternoon the department of health and human services did say to cnn and other news outlets that the online plik part of healthcare.gov will be coming down at times during off-peak hours for maintenance, to take care of the glitches that a lot of people have been experiencing. a health and human services spokesman tells cnn that the website will be fully up and running again on monday, for people to fill out the online applications, and the experience for consumers at that point should be better. >> an embarrassment for the administration. hopefully they'll get those -- on monday, if possible. they've only had three years to get ready for this roll-out. thanks very much. a defense contractor

announced it plans to -- ripple effects are being felt across the country, and it's closing -- costing the economy billions. tom foreman has been digging deeper for else. >> i was talking to look heed martin yesterday, and at the time they said they were holding off on a decision, but's the hours clicked by, that is changing. aerospace giant lockheed martin was holding firm against any furloughs. but with 80% of its revenue in government contracts, the company now says 3,000 employees will have to stay home starting monday, maybe more if the shutdown continues. ceo issuing a statement -- i'm disappointed that we must take these actions. we continue to encourage our lawmakers to come together to pass a funding bill that will end this shutdown. far beyond washington in dozens of states with significant

numbers of federal offices, the ripples are hitting not just furloughed civil servants, but also private companies that rely on trade with the government. >> it's a terrible situation. >> reporter: >> reporter: colorado, for example, is home to a large number of research labs studying the energy, the climate wildlife and more. they directly employed nearly 9,000 people. a study found that pours $1.2 billion a year into the state's economy. money that is not flowing now. >> they spend their paychecks in their communities, they spend money at restaurants, money on their rents, car payments, entertainment. >> reporter: some companies with longer-term business cycles say they can way, but at cityview bar & grill in baltimore, the impact has been immediate. this is close to a huge social security office, and the lunch crowd has been hie jacked. >> busy the last three, four days, it's very difficult.

if it continues, i will not be able to continue. >> reporter: it is difficult to calculate exactly how many jobs are affected at this point, but it's not going to get easier for. for the time being the office that counts such things, they're not working either. >> people are suffering right now. tom, thanks very much. up next, there are fears that america is at greater risk for an online attack. the gaping holes in cybersecurity right now. and did a republican congressman try to blame a park ranger for the government shutdown instead of members of his own party? >> the park service should be ashamed. want to trade the all-day relief of two aleve for six tylenol? what's the catch? there's no catch. you want me to give up my two aleve for six tylenol? no. for my knee pain, nothing beats my aleve.

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a doblee systems says it got -- this comes amid new nears about cyber-security because of the federal government shutdown. let's bring in jim scuitto. what are you learning? >> we polled a number of federal agencies. the answer we got from all is the same -- the shutdown has reduced the number of cyber-security staff across the federal government all likely targets. the assessment i have heard from a number of officials is that fewer eyes means more vulnerables. >> the government may be shut down for you and me, but for cyber-attackers, it is even more open for business. adversaries from foreign governments to terror government, says the former head of the cia, are almost certainly looking to take advantage. >> i would have been anticipating this and saying, what do we want to do against

this adversary, what will be helped? what gives us a higher probability of success? >> many cyber teams are relying on skeleton crews, and a successful attack now could do damage even after full staffs return to work. tip early, who advises agencies across the government explained how. >> what may happen as a result of the shutdown, the first incident, which may have been deat the timed by a full staff, might be missed, allowing the compromise to go deeper to get more critical data. >> reporter: another risk. while staffs that monitory, many staff who maintain them are not, meaning they're not updated to resist new kinds of cyberattacks, which can change by the second. the shutdown comes as cyberattacks are transforming from spying to destroying them.

it's a serious concern across the intelligence community. >> it's very concerning to me we would allow any part of our national security structure knowing what's coming at us every day. you can imagine or adversaries are trying to fill the hole. >> we asked a firm that advises many agencies if there's been an increase in attacks. the answer we got is telling -- we're told they just don't have to count. they're focused on putting out fires. >> jim scuitto, thanks very much. we've also heard republicans and democrats blame one another for the government shutdown, but one republican congressman stirred outrage when he appeared to point blame at a government worker. cnn's chris lawrence has the story. >> reporter: is this any way to treat a park ranger? >> park service should be ashamed of themselves. >> i'm not ashamed. >> you should be.

>> reporter: that's a republican from texas, beraiding the ran r ranger, keeping veterans out of the world war 2:00 memorial. >> how do you looking look at then and deny. >> it's difficult. >> it should be difficult. >> it is difficult. i'm sorry, sir. >> reporter: congress gave the military a special exemption to get paid. fema called back furloughed workers because of the a tropical storm, but across the country, others in uniform have to work and can't get paid until the government reopens. >> we don't know how long it's going to last. >> reporter: that ranger kept searching for a hiker lost in a national part in idaho, doing his job, with no guarantee of the next check. >> i think that's messed up. i don't think the congress should get paid. >> reporter: they do, but the u.s. capitol police, the cops who put themselves in front of an out-of-control car thursday, all they get is an attaboy. >> i know all of us want to

extend that thanks, just to let them know we appreciate it. >> i know i join the majority leader in expressing or gratitude to the capitol police. >> that ranger at the memorial was only doing what she was told. >> this woman is doing her job, just like me. i'm a 30-year federal veteran. i'm out of work. >> the reason you are -- >> no, because the government won't do its job and pass a budget. >> reporter: but now the congressman is trying to clarify that confrontation. >> my beef was not with the park ranger. my beef is with the parks department and this president, that they would deny these american heroes access to world war ii memorial. >> so a lot of online criticism, the congressman now says bakley what he meant was the parks department should be ashamed of itself, not the ranger personally. look, in any case while the

military personnel here have got their guarantee, there's still a lot of folks in uniform who are putting up with a lot and don't have any idea when they're going to get paid, wolf. >> no one does. thanks, chris. more fireworks over at the world war ii memorial. listen to ted cruz speaking to cnn about the government's shutdown just a little while ago. >> the reason we have a shutdown is because harry reid and president obama want a shutdown. they have refused to compromise at all, and unfortunately harry reid and president obama believe this shutdown benefits them as a partisan political matter. >> so for me, thanks very much for watching. "crossfire" starts right now. tonight on "crossfire", after four days of shutdown, who's to blame? >> democrats have invoked my

name as the root of all evil in the world. who will blink? >> we should get this over with as soon as possible. is anybody winning? >> this isn't some damned game. on the left steffie tutter. on the right s.e. kipp. howard dean and jessie venturo, what furloughed both parties' lawmakers. solving the shutdown. what can taxpayers do? tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm stephanie cutter on the left. >> i'm secupp on the right. the white house signaling to the "wall street journal" that they don't care how long this shutdown guy on as long as they're winning is a huge problem. winning republicans if the white house doesn't lead soon, they'll find themselves in big trouble.