and media. that could be a tweet. with characters to spare. that's it for this edition of "reliable sources." i'm frank sesno. if you missed part of our show, find us online or itunes. search for reliable sources in the itunes store and join the conversation on twitter, tweet us @cnnreliable or use the hash tag #reliable. join us 11:00 a.m. eastern. "state of the union" with candy crowley begins right now. if you want a friend in washington, get a dog. today they call him speaker cruz. it's not meant as a compliment. >> so many democrats have invoked my name as the root of all evil. >> a marquee name in the tea party takes on incoming from the other parties. our exclusive with texas republican senator ted cruz. then -- >> take that vote. stop this farce. >> all we're asking for is to

sit down and have a discussion. >> the u.s. government is close to $17 trillion in debt. and these congressional authority to borrow more. jack lew joins us on washington's double trouble. showdowns over the shutdown and the debt ceiling. plus, is anybody winning or is everybody losing? our political panel considers it all and weighs in on a way out. this is "state of the union." good morning from washington. i'm candy crowley. five days into the government shutdown, there is some movement. the pentagon is bringing most of the civilian employees back to work starting this week. the house approved a measure guaranteeing back pay to furloughed federal workers. and a senior house republican tells cnn they're floating the idea of a bill that funds the government and lifts the nation's debt ceiling for six weeks. the measure would not be tied to anything about obama care. and that might not sit well with senator ted cruz.

his take on this in a few minutes. first, my interview with treasury secretary jack lew. treasury secretary jack lew is here. mr. secretary, thank you so much for coming in. >> thank you. >> if i can just sort of sum up what you've been saying,en that is come october 17th, you have run out of tricks. hopefully you don't use that word. but ways you can massage the numbers so you don't go over the debt cereal ceiling that congress has set. you need a new debt ceiling by october 17th. what happens on october 18th if you don't get it? >> well, that's a very good question. and just to be clear, we crossed the debt limit in may. since may, we've been creating room to borrow using extraordinary measures. they've been used so many times. they're not as extraordinary as they used to be. tuesday i wrote to congress saying i used my last extraordinary measures. i have no more. that means on october 17th we'll run out of the ability to borrow. we'll be left with cash on hand. i told congress it will be roughly $30 billion.

and $30 billion is a lot of money. but when you think about the cash flow of the government of the united states, we have individual days when our negative or positive cash flow is 50 or $60 billion. so $30 billion is not a responsible amount of cash to run the government on. >> you are telling me that nothing would happen on the 18 snj. >> i can't tell you. we never got to this point, candy. we've never gotten to the point where the united states government operated without at built to borrow. it's very dangerous. it's reckless. the reality there are no good choices if we run out of cash. that means the united states for the first time will be not paying its bills, hurting the full faith and credit because of a political decision. >> let me play you something that steve king of iowa, a republican said. talking about the possibility of servicing the debt past this deadline. >> i don't think the credit of the united states is going to be collapsed.

i think that all this talk about a default has been a lot of demagoguery, a lot of false demagoguery. >> is it technically possible to keep up with the debts? can you just not pay the interest rate on the debts while this is worked out. >> i have to tell you, anyone that thinks that the united states government not paying its bills is anything less than default hasn't thought about it very clearly. let me ask you a question. what happens if we're not able to pay social security? what happens if we can't pay disability and veterans payments on time. in each of these cases, it means families, businesses, institutions that are important, won't be getting what they rely on. >> coming the 18th you won't be able to pay social security or won't be able to pay medicare or won't be able to pay for all of these things? >> i'm telling that you the 17 run out of our ability to borrow.

we have a very, very short window of time before those scenarios start to be played out. >> could you keep up on servicing the debt that is paying the interest on the u.s. debt, therefore, not defaulting as you contend? >> if the united states government for the first time in the history chooses not to pay its bills on time, we will be in default. there is no option that prevents us from being in default if we don't have enough cash to pay our bills. >> very often in bills and correct me if i'm wrong, can you not pay the interest? i'm just trying to figure out wiggle room. what republicans are saying is these guys do this all the time as we run up. look at wall street. it's kind of looking at it. they say this doesn't seem than big of a deal this time around. no one's been threatening to downgrade the u.s. credit worthiness. so the question is, is it true, as they say, that you can service the debt beyond the 17th? >> let me put this in context. we are the strongest, most important economy in the world.

we've already seen that when government shutdown, the kinds of gridlock in washington hurts the people and it hurts the economy. we saw it in 2011. we approached the point of reaching the debt limit. you now have people who are saying it won't than bad. well i challenge them to answer the questions that i asked you. they're willing to concede if we don't pay interest and principle. you know, it is bad. there are a lot of things that are bad. you can't pay all the bills that the congress doesn't raise the debt ceiling. none of the bills are new. these are commitment that's congress made to pay old bills. it's like someone saying i ran up credit card anticipate decided not to pay it. you can't do. that our currency is the world's reserve currency. >> is this -- could the president, is there a mechanism and i think we went around this last time around in 2011, is there a mechanism for the president should the u.s. be unable to pay its bills, is he able to unilaterally lift the

debt ceiling? >> the president does not have the authority to take action in that kind of a way. the president consulted with lawyers. and that's the conclusion that he reached. you know, there is a desire here for there to be a magic solution. there's an easy solution, candy. majority of congress would do the right thing if given a chance to vote to open the government. a majority in congress would do the right thing if given a chance to let us pay our bills. congress needs to work. the majority needs to be given a chance. >> if it is as bad as you say it would be if this happens, if they don't raise the debt ceiling by the 17th, why wouldn't the president come to the negotiating table? if it's going to ruin -- it's going to shake the world markets and ruin our credit worthiness, you know, we're the superpower. we can't not be paying our debts. if it's that vital, why isn't he at the table saying what can we

do here? >> i think you know the president has been, is, and will always be looking for that way to negotiate to find a sense of middle ground. he it in 2011. he did it last year. he did it this year in the budget where he put forward tough policies. >> if this is so dire, why not do it again? >> i think you look at where we are right now, we've just gone through a couple months where very extreme parts of congress to control. i don't think the leadership in congress wanted a government shutdown. they ended up with a government shutdown because of the tactics of an extreme group trying to say we're willing to do real damage if we don't get our way. the president's message is clear. open the government, help us pay our bills and then negotiate. he is very much prepared to do that. >> the president still won't sit down. it's like there's a dual message here. it's really, really important. horrible things are going to happen if this isn't fixed but i'm not going to negotiate. >> in 2011, there was a very dangerous turn in the political debate in washington.

you had the same 50 to 100 members who were willing to default if they didn't get their way. i've been through a lot of budget debates. i've been through a lot of debt ceiling debates. never did i hear people say, if i don't get my way, it's better to default. >> let me turn you quickly to the government shutdown and in particular you have inside the treasury department, the unit that monitors sanctions and imposes sanctions on those who try to help iran or syria militarily. we're now told that office has been gutted, it can no longer do its job because of the shutdown. as you know, congressman ed royce wrote you a letter and said, wait a minute, you said you would certainly make sure that all vital activities of the government go on. and then he said the recent staffing decisions leave me puzzled. i ask that you reconsider the i

ill advised staffing decisions that undermine support for vigorous iran sanctions and national security efforts. it does seem that this fits under the classification of essential. if the president is going to say iran came to the table because we imposed and enforced sanctions, why would you let all but 17 members of the 100 plus office be furloughed? >> candy, there is a simple solution here. i understand can you open the federal government. >> did you have to furlough these people? i understand you want the government open. >> look around the government, there are people with essential functions that are not coming to work because not everything that meets the common sense test of essential meets the legal test. >> the president's ability to carry out foreign policy and randomly worry about nuclear weapons. >> i think the work is very important. i think congress is irresponsible and reckless for shutting government down. they also need to understand when we shut down the government

down, there are consequences. we don't have the legal ability to bring everyone back. >> treasury secretary jack lew, thank you for coming by. nice to see you. >> we are back now with senator ted cruz. i do believe, senator, he was sort of referring to you in some of those remarks about the extreme members of congress that they characterize as extreme shutting down the government to the harm of the u.s. the debt ceiling. how should republicans approach that? >> let me commend actually secretary lew for not being willing to demagogue on the debt ceiling the way sadly his boss, president obama, has. if i counted right, three times you asked him directly come october 17th, will the united states default on its debt? and three times he avoided answering. the reason is the answer is, of course not. frankly, what i wish he said and what any responsible president would say is you would come out and say under no circumstances will the united states ever default on its debt.

that should be the answer. secretary lew went halfway there by refusing to repeat the claim that president obama's made, that there is some risk of -- >> would you agree it's not good for the u.s. not to be able to borrow past where it is. at some point it will happen, have to default. how should the republicans handle the debt ceiling? do you want some faction of the president's health plan to be attached to that in exchange for lifting the debt ceiling? or because it's so important, should republicans say we need to lift the debt ceiling? >> in my view, the debt ceiling, we should look for three things. number one, we should look for some significant structural plan to reduce government spending. number two, we should avoid new taxes. number three, we should look for ways to mitigate the harms from obama care. since 1978, the debt ceiling has

been raised three times. >> so you think that some facet of the president's health care plan should be attached to an increase in the debt ceiling? >> the debt ceiling historically has been among the best leverage that congress has to reign in the executives. >> yes. >> yes, yes. >> okay. and what else? should be attached to it? >> my point is that there's great historical precedence. since 1978, we raised the debt ceiling 55 times. a majority of those times, 20 times, congress attached very specific and stringent requirements, many of the most significant spending restraints, things like graham rudman, sequestration, came through the debt ceiling and so the president's demand, jack up the nation's credit card with no limits, no constraints, it's not reasonable. >> how far are you willing to go because i'm going to imagine that a number of your republican colleagues as well as all the democrats are going to say we cannot mess around with the debt ceiling here. it's too important.

it sends a bad message. it will lock the economy. let's increase the debt ceiling for x amount of time or x amount of dollars. how far would you go to stop that in order to eke out -- >> in my view we ought to have one fight at a time. we're in the middle of a government shutdown. >> but it's all going to pull together. >> it may or may not. i don't think it should. i think we still have time. we need to deal with the fact that a significant percentage of the government is shut down because harry reid and president obama have refused to negotiate. and you're seeing house republicans over and over again passing reasonable bills to open vital government services and president obama and the democrats refusing to negotiate. we have to focus on that first. because that's the immediate challenge. >> well, i -- i grant you that both sides see the other side as at fault here. but that's about blame. i think what the american people want to know is, where does this end?

you talked last night about -- you were at a virginia republican event in richmond. and you said republicans will win this. and by that, i believe you meant what you wanted in exchange for a spending bill. what does win this mean to you? what does that look like for a republican victory? >> let me be clear, i didn't say republicans will win this. i think career politicians in both parties have been part of the problem. i said the american people are going to win. >> what does that win look like? what does an american people win look like to you? >> what the american people want is they want our government funded and they want to stop the harms of obama care. it is hurting millions of people. it's killing their jobs. it is forcing them into part time work and causing millions of americans to lose or risk losing their health insurance. that's a win for the american people, it is actually responding to the real harms that are coming from obama care. >> let me show you some polling that was done recently. and the question encompasses

both of those things you just talked about. and that is do you believe that in order to change obama care the government should shut down if that's the price for getting it done? and the cbs poll basically showed 72% totally disapprove of that tactic. so if we're listening to what the american people want, they don't want a government shutdown because there are differences over the health care law. >> candy, as you phrase that question, i'm in that 72%. i don't want the government to shut down. i've said that throughout. and the reason the government has shut down, you know, you mentioned that in fact earlier you ran a graphic on the screen both sides refuse to negotiate. look, i understand the natural reaction you see an impasse in this sort of natural reaction is both sides are to blame. but i don't think the facts support that. if you look, the house republicans repeatedly had been compromising. had been passing one bill after another.

first obama care itself and then secondly working to restart vital government functions. and the senate democrats over and over again of president said they won't negotiate. they won't talk. they have not moved one inch. and when you've got one side that is compromising the other side that isn't, i don't think it's an accurate or fair description to say that neither side is negotiating. >> but it is accurate, is it not, that absent the republicans attaching things to do with the president's health care act, a clean cr would have gone through. >> that's not accurate. for example, you played the president saying let's have a vote. let's stop the farce. i agree with president obama. there are eight bills that the house has passed that are piled up on harry reid's desk. harry reid will not let the senate vote. so for example, jack lew, candy, said we need to fund our veterans and disability payments. the house passed a bill to fund our veterans. every senate republican believes we should fund our veterans regardless of what happens in the shutdown.

our veterans shouldn't pay the price. and right now harry reid and the senate democrats are refusing to have a vote and blocking it. the only reason the va is not adequately funded right now is because harry reid and the democrats are blocking it. >> how about a cooling off period? there is an idea being floated, cnn is reporting a cooling off period. that you pass a clean spending bill for six weeks and on it you also increase the debt ceiling for six weeks. in that six weeks, you negotiate on how to fund the government for the rest of the fiscal year and negotiate the debt ceiling. >> candy, that would -- >> that would accomplish what you want, which is the president at the table? >> look what you just asked. you said how about the agreement be give the democrats 100% of what they want with no changes whatsoever. they're not talking now but if you give them everything you want, then they'll talk. no, they won't. we saw this week president obama after months of refusing to talk

to congress finally invited congressional leaders over, sat down and said hi, i invited you here to say i will not negotiate. in their view, it is not reasonable. it is republicans in congress who are passing bills to reopen the parks, the memorials, to fund cancer research, to fund our veterans. and it's the democrats who are refusing to have a vote. why won't harry reid let the senate vote on the eight bills the house has passed to fund vital parts of the government? >> he would say because he thinks he's being blackmailed. i want to continue this conversation. we'll be back. we have to take a quick break. we want to talk about a couple things when we return. i also want to talk about the blow back for members of your own party. they gave you an earful behind closed doors saying you don't have an endgame strategy and, you're, quote, selling snake oil. your chance to respond after this. my customers can shop around-- see who does good work and compare costs. it doesn't usually work that way with health care.

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i think republicans have to be more responsible. we have this wing of 30, 40, people who are driving us over a cliff. we have to stop listening to ted cruz. >> that's congressman peter king. he is a frequent and vocal critic of senator cruz. will voters blame republicans for the shutdown and could the price be the majority in the house? more with senator ted cruz next. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger. ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history.

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that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. we're back with republican senator ted cruz. speaker boehner is out today also on the sunday morning circuit. he says there are not the votes in the house for a clean increase in the debt ceiling. that there is a history of debt ceiling increases being tied to other policy things.

and that he wants to sit down with the president to talk about that. my question to you is if what the speaker can pass out of the house does not include health care reform, but includes other things, entitlement reform or some other manner of tax reform, would that be okay with you? or do both the shutdown and the debt ceiling have to have some component of rescinding some part of obama care? >> look, i think the speaker is exactly right. and i commend his leadership. the house of representatives has been listening to the american people and what house republicans have been doing consistently throughout this is trying to resolve this matter. they've been passing bill after bill to fund vital priorities of the government and the senate democrats, there are eight bills piled up on harry reid's desk that he won't allow. >> i understand. i heard you say that. the questions is, does some part of health care reform repeal in

some way have to be attached to a debt ceiling for you to approve of it? >> i want to worry about the debt ceiling after we get through the cr. what does congress need to do now whether it's the cr or debt ceiling is we need to prevent the millions of people who are losing their jobs, who are being pushed into part time work and facing, you know, for a young healthy 30-year-old male who is single, under obama care he is going to pay health insurance premiums going up 260%. we need to address that. >> if this is more than anecdotal, if this is widespread problem that spelled doom for the president's health care plan, why not just let it rip? let it go into effect and have it cave on its own? because then i think you'll have much better numbers in the polls of people that want to get rid of health care. >> that's a great question. if you listen to what senator harry reid said, he said that he

believes that obama care will lead to inevitably single payer government socialized health care. i believe this is going to collapse. in the process of collapsing, it's going to destroy the private health insurance system. you have hundreds of millions of people that have private health insurance that is jeopardized by obama care. so when it collapses, i don't want it to destroy the health insurance we have now. and listen, candy, if one of your viewers doesn't trust me because i'm a politician which actually makes sense. because i'm a republican, maybe they would trust james hoffa, who is the president of the teamsters. he said in writing that obama care right now is destroying the health care of millions of working men and women. he used the word destroying. i agree with mr. hoffa. >> he wants a subsidy for collective union bargaining health care benefits. >> let's be clear. what he's saying is his workers are at risk of losing their health insurance. that same thing is true. it's why u.p.s. just a few weeks

ago sent a letter to 15,000 employees saying you're losing your spousal coverage. all your husbands and wives are losing their health insurance right now. now there was a time when president obama said if you like your health insurance you can keep it. we need to make that commitment. we need to honor that commitment. >> i want to talk about the politics of this. president obama gave an interview to the associated press recently and he had this to say about new senators. i think you'll recognize or think this might be about you. my attitude was when he was a freshman senator i should keep a low profile in the senate and just do the work. i didn't go around courting the media and i certainly didn't go around trying to shut down the government. the president just the latest in a string of people criticizing you that in fact you weren't here when republicans fought tooth and nail to stop the president's health care bill. and now you sort of join forces with people calling your fellow republicans rhinos, republican

in name only and soft republicans and we need to replace them. what's your response to what the president has to say about you and others? >> look, the fact that you're saying so many nasty partisan jabs from democrats and -- >> and from republicans as well. >> you just quoted the president and certainly harry reid and senate democrats have not been shy and using all sorts of inflammatory attacks, the fact that you're seeing those attacks i think is indicative of the fact that we're winning the argument. obama care isn't working. you don't see any democrats defending obama care. >> it hasn't started. >> but the harms have. people are losing health insurance right now. that is because of obama care. people are being pushed into part time work right now. that is because of obama care. and so -- >> and your republican colleagues agree with you on that? they agree with you that they don't want the president's health care plan, many of them fought against it. they do not agree that shutting down the government is the

appropriate way to -- i know you think harry reid -- i understand that your take is -- >> let me be clear on this. i don't support shutting down the government. i said that throughout. if you want to focus, as i think you do, on areas of bipartisan agreement, a week ago the house passed a bill funding the men and women of our military. >> right. >> the senate unanimously passed it. but then the house passed eight other bills funding things like our veterans. funding things like the national parks. and harry reid has killed them. now let me be clear. it's important to understand. these bills, none of them even mention obama care. they're programs completely unrelated to obama care. and the position of president obama and harry reid is if you aren't funding everything in the government, they will fund nothing. you know, we launched a national website, fundourvets.com that says, listen, regardless of the shutdown, veterans ought to be above politics. they ought to be bipartisan agreement. we need to honor our commitments to the veterans. >> if you can use this leverage, they feel it's blackmail.

let me ask you something about your fellow republicans. >> let me press back. twice you said harry reid would say it's blackmail. i want to press back. i actually think that's a false claim with no basis. the bill that the house passed on the va simply funds the va. it doesn't mention anything about obama care. it doesn't mention anything about anything else. now for hundreds of years, the way congress appropriated is one topic at a time. how is it blackmail to say we think we should fund the veterans? do you agree? that's a yes or no vote. now harry reid refuses to let the democrats vote on that. but how is it blackmail to say we may not agree on everything but is there anything we can agree on? we ought to agree on supporting our veterans. >> do you think you hurt the republican party brand? >> not remotely. but i also think far too many people are worried about politics. listen, if we worry about what is impacting the american people, the politics will take care of itself. the politician that's are gazing at polls, there is a reason why

the most common sentiment across this country is that politicians in washington aren't listening to us. there's a reason why congress has 10% to 15% approval rating. in both parties, the politicians in washington try to maintain their power instead of listening to the american people. >> but again, you know, you can listen to various portions of the american public. and we've seen poll after poll showing indeed that americans are split about the president's plan. but in the portion of people that don't like it includes people who do want single payer, who think it doesn't go far enough. it is existing law that you are trying to overturn. why not just get out there and win elections and overturn it with republican senate and republican house and republican in the white house? instead of shutting down the government which i think you would concede hurts people who have nothing to do with obama care. >> listen, we did have an election. republicans won a majority of the house of the representatives. and the constitution gives the

house of representatives the principle responsibility for appropriations for spending. there was a press conference last week where harry reid said who is john baner to decide what our priorities should be in spending? he's the speaker of the house. the constitution gives him that authority. now there was also a press conference that i know you're familiar with in which a reporter from cnn dana bash asked him about the nih funding, funding for the national institutes of health. he said if you can save one kid with cancer, isn't it worth doing it? and his response, he said why would i care about that and then he proceeded to lecture and insult her. now listen, dana is not a right-wing cook. she was doing her job. the response from the democrats is how dare you question us. we're going to shut down everything and we don't intend to budge. that's not a reasonable decision. >> i have to close it off there. really wish we had more time. i hope you'll come back. dana bash is a big girl and just fine. thank you very much for joining us. we appreciate it senator ted cruz.

when we return, our panel on winners and losers. and military raids against terrorists in africa and whether they'll give the president more leverage for his domestic agenda. [ male announcer ] when you wear dentures you may not know

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joining me around the table, steve king, republican from iowa, cnn crossfire host stephanie cutter, cnn political commentator and new york time columnist and donna edwards, democrat from maryland. i want to talk just briefly about the breaking news this morning that there have been two successful raids by u.s. special forces, one in libya for a man we've been looking for for almost 15 years. the other in somalia against an al-shabaab unit. they're responsible for the mall terrorism not that long ago. when you contrast this to the

syria we're going to bomb, we're not going to bomb and the criticism that the president took for that this is a pretty forceful, looks like a successful mission so far. does that strengthen his hand at home? is there a translation there that the -- that he gets a boost from this? >> candy, i think that this is a plus. and i'm certainly glad that we have that kind of forces out there. our hats are off to the special forces that pulled this off and they're coming back with american casualties. it's a good thing. i'm one who said that the president has a constitutional authority to order our troops into battle. he needs to come back to us if it's a long engagement. but i think he would have been better off if he was going to go into syria if he had done so for a precision strike. that's what caused the problem. now he went to congress for advice and now he is negotiating. >> i think we can all agree it's better if you don't have to deal with congress.

but sometimes -- >> it certainly does. it certainly demonstrates the president's resolve as he's demonstrated during the course of the presidency. it says to the rest of the world, we're not going to forget. we're going to keep coming after you if you do harm to us and our allies around the world. i think that is really important. what's clear to me though is that the president has, you know, an obligation around the world. america matters. we need to get our house in order here in the united states and in the congress so we have a government that fully operates in order to make certain that at the president has a strongest hand possible. >> isn't that always the problem? yes, this is, you know, something that the americans look at and think, yeah, we're out there with, you know, cream of the crop folks that can get the job done. but back home, i need a job or we need congress to end the shutdown. >> this isn't the bin laden

killing or capture of figures who i think we can assume most americans haven't thought of and most americans are not paying attention to. i think it's a sign that it's a plus for the president. it's a good thing for the country and a sign of sort of the low level war on terror strategy that continues and pace all around the world no matter what is happening, debates over syria or domestically. it doesn't -- i don't see it having any really notable ripple effects. >> it does make it clear that we can operate in somalia. we can operate in libya. that's a message that i think will resonate in the next few days. >> senator, let me get you to move on. it just seems that we kind of have the table set. president says no, not going -- we aren't negotiating. this is blackmail. republicans go, wait a second, not negotiate? they're the ones holding this up. >> first of all, in a government

shutdown, let's be clear. nobody wins. including the american people. and we're seeing the impacts of that every single day. but secondly, this is a crisis that your guest who was just on here manufactured. republicans -- >> you heard what he said. >> i heard what he said. we can address that. let's be clear, speaker boehner didn't want to attach health care to the cr. majority of republicans didn't want to attach health care to the cr which is the continuing resolution to fund our government. but because of the campaign that senator cruz and a few others ran from the outside, it pushes republicans into a corner. they've been attached with every warning possible from the president and democrats, from the american people, don't do this. it's not going to work out well for you. he did it. they did it. and now we're at an impasse. and this is a self inflicted wound. they're looking for somebody to get them out of this now. they're trying to blame harry reid, president for, you know, a fire that they started.

>> let me go ahead and let you jump into this. let me just note that this now sounds as though it's going to bleed into the debt ceiling simply because john boehner said we don't have the votes to pass that debt ceiling, a clean debt ceiling. and senator cruz said, no, the debt ceilings are used to affect changes in policy. >> i think if you're just looking at it from a purely legislative point of view, i think in the end boehner wins in the sense that some kind of concession will be made by the white house and by democrats on some specific issue and it will be tied into the debt ceiling and tied to the shutdown for the president to still say i didn't negotiate on the debt ceiling but we made this concession. it will end up being something like the medical device tax repeal, something like that.

i think the danger for republicans and the congressman can speak to this better than i can, that kind of minor sort of tactical victory, is it worth the path? it is worth the pr hit? >> i want to get you to hold. i'll get both of you, all of you to comment when we return. we want to talk about the endgame to a stalemate and who is going to pay the price in the next election.

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we are back. how is this going to end? i'm going to start with our wings here, simply because, give me the exit ramp here that's practical. >> 200 democrats have said we would support a clean continuing resolution from the government. 20 republicans are on record saying that they would. clean cr, on government

operations and let's pay our bills. >> that's what you hope. what do you think will happen? >> i really do think that will happen, because people recognize what's happening to the economy, you know, every single day that we don't fund the operations of the government, we are actually losing $10 by on. $10 billion. it makes a difference. it makes a difference to the people if we do t you know, the government was just starting to run, small businesses hiring, banks loaning, all of that shuts down if we send a signal that we'll default on our obligations. >> this scenario assumes that speaker boehner would say to his caucus, i know not all of you are with me, but we're going to put this on the floor. >> mr. boehner has made it clear for three years he would do anything to prevent a shutdown. nonetheless now we have a partial shutdown, not a complete shutdown.

we've heard the announcement from the secretary of defense that they're going to put back to work over several hundred thousand workers in defense. we voted yesterday in order to fund our federal employees, retroactively, i think we agree on that piece. so we don't know how this is going to end, i can tell you the lid is on the pressure cooker, the pressure gets turned up every day and there was an unanimous effort in the house yesterday to fund our federal employees. we will march down that line a piece at a time, opening up as many pieces of government as we can because all republicans have voted to fund every aspect of government, except obama care. so let's see where this gets to the point where we get down to the end, one piece at a time, one move at a time, on this gamut we talked about. >> and i don't understand where -- so the only reason we're not fully funding government right now, because the majority of the house -- no strings attached, is because of a fraction in the house of

representatives. >> can't we point ute all republicans have voted this way? let's face it, the republican caucus has stayed together. >> every day more and more republicans in the house are saying let's vote on this, get this over, let's fund our government. bought the same time, they're voting on individual bills to fund. where does that stop? you know what are you going to choose not to fund. if that one thing is holding us up from running our government. >> you know what they did is they shut down government totally, but want to fund it piecemeal, a step at a time, which is completely irresponsible. >> and some of it is stuff that they had totally defunded in past budgets. >> my question for the left senator members of our panel, do you think that the white house has handled this shutdown well? because my overall sense -- i'm basically with you on the tactics. i don't understand what the end game that the conservative wing of the house has in mind.

i noticed that the congressman declined to say. the white house thinks they're winning. they keep blundering into these pr disasters where they're closing the world war ii memorial. i live in washington, you wander through the world war ii memorial, so i just wonder, do you think that's going well? >> 20 seconds. >> i've been in the white house on the brink of a shutdown. those decisions really aren't made by the white house. they're made by the federal government at the according to law. >> the iran monitoring team, the president could do that. >> what do you take that away from? there's a lid here. what do you take that away from? i will note that bob dole, the world war ii veteran said -- >> i've got to go. i've got to go. thank you, steve king, stephanie cutter, congresswoman

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