listen to what he said on abc's "this week." >> they are not prepared to schedule a clean vote? >> there are not the votes in the house to pass a clean cr. >> well, there are. there are enough votes. plus 24 republicans have come out in favor of passing a clean cr, and ending this shutdown, but we could reopen the government today if only speaker boehner would reopen the business of leadership in the house. we could end this. >> i take issue with the create ideological demand park, but putting that aside -- >> why? >> president obama has a bigger problem. that's a looming default on our debts. believe me, no matter how incompetent he thinks republicans are looking over this shutdown, he knows that ultimately it's his credibility and his legacy on the line if we go over -- >> i think he knows that it's

the country's future and our economy that's on the line if we default, which is why he's telling republicans don't bring it -- >> it's a big problem for him and he's got to figure out what way to deal with it. in the "crossfire" tonight senator markie and senator john thune of south dakota. senator markie, to you first. i know it's fashionable to blame republicans for this shutdown, but the house passed four bills to fund the government, then passed more bills to fund pieces of government to reopen. harry reid, who has refused to give those bills a vote deserves some responsibility here. >> what you are saying is we should pate for the republican tea party members of the house to pick those parts of the government that they like. we should just approve those parts of the government.

but we should also take away health care for the poorest children in america. we should not have a department of energy, but any parts want to support they should have a vote in the senate. what's the loss for you? don't you care about refunds those services? >> you know how to reopen the department of veteran affairs? send over a bill that has reopened the government. as stephanie set there are 24 republicans in the house of representatives who say they will open the whole government. you don't have to open up the parts that the republicans like. >> let's talk about spopt here, senator theune. i want to talk about respond. s.e. just made the case -- i'd like to make a case that ted cruz should take responsibility.

he's the one that demanded that obama care be tied to funding the government and providing basic services to the american people in fact you signed a her of him, that we're not going to pass a budget unless the defunding of over 'bama care is attached. where is the respond? that's what led us to this point. i want that's one of the system proposes. the that would repeal the independent mandate. >> they keep moving the goal line. >> but they compromise. >> on what size of the gun. >> if you think about it, delay really makes a lot of sense. so you have the president defending big business, we're

saying why shouldn't middle-class americans have the same thing. you look at what happened, the pileup they had last week, 41 out of 82 deadlines have been missed it makes sen -- >> the pileup happened because of the overwhelming response. however, the question i have for you is you signed this her supporting ted cruz holding the government hostage, and then it comes up for a vote in the senate and you voted gentz ted cruz. >> we all agree on one thing. we're looking for all kinds of ways to get rid of it. we put forward other proposes to delay it for a year. you know, you've got the house of representatives has sent over

now legislation that would open up fema legislation, to open up the national parks. there's a whole series of things sitting at the senate desk picked up today passed by unanimous consent. >> you look like you want to jump in. >> we don't need a firing squad, we just need a geek squad, just to fix the computer. what they are afraid of is that it's going to work. in massachusetts we have it. 98% of all adults, 99% of all children, that's what they're afraid of so yesterday's "new york times," a very simple three-point plan. number one the the koch brothers and tea party put a blueprint to kill the affordable care act and shut down the government. number two, send it to all the

republicans, step three, implement the blueprint and turn the lights out. here we are, their plan, not compromise, not a conversation, about you capitulation. that's what they're looking for, and they had plenty of opportunities all year long, and the senate republicans blocked the democratic budget and the senate from going over 19 times, so we could have a conversation. be responsible, keep the government open. >> but why would you when you've delayed so many parts, the president has signed seven bills into law that have repeat parts, and the employer mandate was a big deal. the reason that the president delayed it is because he heard from so many employers. why wouldn't it make sense, let middle class americans have the same protections from this. right now you have the president of the united states diane diamonding big business.

the blueprint makes it clear, that's not the agenda. the agenda is to kill the affordable care act, and if it's delayed a year, any part of it, it's just to have another year to put together another plan. with can change parts, that's the responsible way to act, but to hold the entire government hostage, just as daniel -- but i can only imagine what the four presidents are thinking as we're shutting down the government over a one-year delay in the affordable care act? it's absolutely crazy. >> i would take issue with ther that these are tea party inspired. and there are a lot of democrats. you look at the labor unions, what they wrote to the presidents, they would create nightmare scenarios, and destroy

the backbone of the middle-class america. >> that's the tea party -- no one is denies it, that's what the plan is. >> and the american people don't want it down. >> neither do we. >> regardless of obama care. i have a question for you. are you saying you will never vote to reopen the government unless obama care is attached? >> what i'm willing to say -- that's the wrong question. right now the question is what can we get votes in the house. >> you've got them. >> well, i trust the speaker has a pretty good sense of where his votes are there. we now have the debt limit and cr. these require negotiations.

it's the budget numbers --. these are budget numbers that are law. we're going to get to the debt ceiling in a bit, but senator markie, there's some democratic support to repeal the medical device tax. i'm a little confused on your position, though, because you've said in the past you're against this device tax, but you voted against repealing it. just explain why. >> it's simple, yes, i do want to repeal it, but then you have to pay for it. my suggests is we take away the tax breaks. the $29 billion they get, and take the tax away from the medical devices. >> why don't we negotiate that, then? >> that's what we should be doing. >> that's what republicans have been asking. >> no, no.

that will then come out of the affordable care act. >> just as president obama is saying let's negotiate that later, if this is the thing that can open the government right now, why not say yes, let's do it and we'll figure out the details later. that's been president obama's mantra. >> they just came up with this idea like 72 hours ago. >> for the medical device tax? >> in terms of not having -- >> congress has been voting on it for two years. >> you can't shut down the entire government over a 72-hour-old -- >> and know. >> first this was about defunding obama car, then it's about a delay in obama care, now about a medical device tax? >> it's been voted on -- >> this is not about -- this is about shutting down government. senator markie, you had a good idea there, repeal the medical device tax, but pay for it with

taking away the tax breaks that oil and gas get. would you be open to that? >> i think there's a way to find common ground, and the repeal of the device tax is one. or as we like to refer to it, the pace maker tax, because that's what it is. but there are lots of offsets that have been -- there are some folks in the house of representatives that have proposed an offset. >> but it's interesting that the democratic line now is, how would you pay for it? >> yes, exactly. >> and republicans could have very simply opposed a cut in the medical device tax and substitution. guess what? that would probably pass. what they're saying is we're going to steal the revenues from the programs to take care of the poorest children in america, to make sure they have health care. that's not a responsible amendment. that's the amendment i vote against. >> i'll just re --

>> poor people all -- senator markie, i'll just remind you 30-plus of your colleagues, democrats in the senate voted to repeal that tax. >> with a pay for it. >> this is -- it's on top-line sales. this is gutting medical research. >> we can repeal it. >> we will continue this conversation, senator ted cruz just laid out his new bargaining line about raising the debt limit. at least one of us sitting at this table doesn't buy all of his conditions. you'll be surprised to learn who that is. next. stick with power. stick with technology. get the flexcare platinum. new from philips sonicare. and it feels like your lifeate revolves around your symptoms, ask your gastroenterologist about humira adalimumab. humira has been proven to work for adults who have tried other medications but still experience the symptoms of moderate to severe crohn's disease.

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welcome back to "crossfire." we are seven days into the partial shutdown, but the real crisis is still on the horizon. i was with ted cruz on attaching obama care to the shutdown. i am not with him on attaching it to the debt limit fight? why? shutdown, fake crisis. debt limit, real crisis. listen to his new bargaining line. >> number one, we should look for some significant structural plan to reduce government spending. number two, we should avoid new taxes. >> senator markie, i agree, republicans should get something out of the this debt limit fight, because we cannot keep raising or debt without getting spending cuts or deficit reduction, entitlement reform. one of the other things they proposed is a yes or no vote on

the keystone pipe did not line. would you go to default? >> you cannot negotiate with a gun at your head. it's not the way to debate our energy and environmental policy for the united states of america. there can be a vote on the keystone pipeline anytime the republicans in the senate or the house want to make a fight, but attacking it to the shutdown, attaching it to the full faith and credit of the united states of america, the currency of the world, by the way every finance minister will start to worker about the money they have invested. you're never going to see the republicans in the house to sent over a bill, because they just

is won't talk about it. so the keytone pipeline is in that discussion. as it's presently constructed and plans, does not keep the out in the united states. i keep making an amendment to say all the oil must stay, and almost every sing the republican votes know, so what's the point of running all the environment ricks, having the oil go down to texas and having it sent out of the country? where is the national security? where is the energy? where is the economic benefit for our country? both trans-canada and all the energy companies oppose keeping it in our country. >> there are environmental impact studies that have been down now. just as importantly it's about sxwrobs, about the economy. energy is a competitive advance to us. it's also something that the president's own state department would create 42,000 construction jobs.

so those are things that are good for the economy. when we think about this discussion, of the 53 times, 27 times something has been attached to it. policy issues, most cases dealing with deficit reduction. all the big budget deals were done that way. 1985, you had a democrat house, a republican senate and republican president, but that was done in association with the debt limit. we ought to do things that are good for reforming our spending, getting our country on a better fiscal trajectory and growing jobe. keystone pipeline is one of those things on the list, about you to say i'm not going to negotiate, it defies history. >> he's acting like this is some novel request. >> we export young men and women to protect those ships that bring oil into our country. i don't think it's right for us to be exporting oil out of the

united states when weapon young men and women in the middle east. that oil should stay here, the petroleum institute, they oppose keeping the oil here. that is just plain wrong. >> we certainly should not be bringing the economy to the brin i want to bring up something -- >> it's not just about the pipeline, by the way. >> in full disclosure, in the effort in full disclosure, i'm with you. in 2011, when you were trying to convince the house and senate republicans to not bring the government to the brink here's what you said, there's too much risk associated with that. and the focus needs to be on economic security of americans and not on politics. how is this any difference when the republicans and their demands on the debt limit, a list of political demands,

including keystone, medical device tax, all of these things that are their political wish lish. how is this not about politics? >> it's about the economy, about jobs. are we going to do something that's going to secure a better future for our children and grandchildren. the president is asking for a trillion dollars debt increase. so, you know, the bills are going to get paid. the debt holders are going to get paid, the important thing is when you do debt limit increase, you take a look at what's causing the debt and try to do something about it. and we have an opportunity here to put in place some spending reforms, to grow the economy at a faster rate which will help us deal with the deficits and debt we're running right now. but if you look at past statements, the president in 2006 said voting to raise the debt limit would be a failure. >> he didn't hold the debt limit

hostage. >> to senator thune's point, president obama voted against raisi raising. nancy pelosi once in 2004. you voted against bill that is would have raised the debt ceiling in 2005, four, three, two, and 1997. why is now the first time anyone's ever wanted to debate raising the debt ceiling? >> we just went through this in 2011. we already saw the stock market drop 2,000 points. we already saw markets tremble across the entire planet. we just did it. we understand what the consequences are. >> why are consequences different today? >> we have just learned this lesson in 2011. both democrats or republicans who might have had any views in the '80s or '90s. i agree with you we should not attach anything to the debt ceiling.

>> no. we don't want to default. we should have some spending cuts. >> but we cannot have a default -- >> and that's been more than 20 times. there was never a threat of default. >> by the way, of those 20 time, more often when the democrats controlled both houses of congress than not. the huge majority of this has been on when democrats had control of congress. this is, there is history to this. there is precedent to this. in all the big budget deals going back to 1995, it came down in association with the democrats. >> because democrats were doing that responsibly. i do want to come back to something you said. you said this is about incurring future spending. are you saying that not increasing the debt limit is not catastrophic? >> no, i'm, of course, i'm saying we need to raise the debt limit. of course we need to pay our bills. of course we want to make sure that we don't default. but we want to do something about the debt. it's like increasing the amount

that you can charge on your credit card. but saying that we can't pay our -- >> bills that we've already incurred. bills that we've already incurred. we've already wracked this stuff up. so one last question for you. there's reports that senator reid may bring up a clean bill. >> i don't think it will pass. >> a clean debt limit. >> i want to see us have a discussion and debate about what we're going to do to reduce the debt in association with raises the debt limit. by the way, the american people agree with that by a 2-1 margin. this is the kind of thing that requires engagement by the president. and when the president says i'm not going to negotiate, the senate democrats are not going to negotiate -- >> we're going to have to go to break. >> i'd be happy to slip a note to john boehner -- >> the president is ready to negotiate, just not at the cost

of our entire economy being put at risk. he is saying please sit down. >> do what i ask first, then we'll talk about -- >> you can't do it with a gun to your head. >> we got to go. we got to go. thanks to senators edward marky and john thune. t thanks for missing the start of the red sox game. we want you to weigh in on today's fire back question. should government workers get paid for the days that they why furloughed. tweet yes or no to crossfire. we'll have the results after the break. max and penny kept our bookstore

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tonight on crossfire, we've been debating the shut down and increasing the debt limit. now let's call a cease-fire. i think we can both agree that nobody's winning and everybody's taking a hit. look at this brand new cnn poll. 63% of you are angry at the republicans because of the shut down. 57% are angry democrats and 53% are angry at the president. >> i'm sure there are circles where they're saying we're winning. i think they're all delusional. >> and republicans saying they've never been so happy. >> everyone is losing here. nobody is looking very good. >> everybody comes out bad. >> go to facebook or twitter to weigh in on our fire back question. should government workers get paid for the days that they were furloughed