country to the brink of default. >> i'm not budging when it comes to the full faith and credit of the united states, that that has to be dealt with, that you don't, you don't pay a ransom, you don't provide concessions for congress doing its job. >> it isn't intellectually honest or productive to say i'm willing to negotiate but not until i get everything i want. republicans are right to insist on negotiations. they're right to insist on spending cuts. and the american people support them. >> i think that's a really good try. >> okay. >> however, for the president to get everything he wants, let's be clear about what we're talking about here. we're talking about congress doing its job, paying the bills that it's already wracked up and turning the lights back on in the government. that's congress doing its job. we're not going to negotiate on a crisis that they created. and in terms of spending cuts, we're already below what the

democrats had offered. we already accepted the republican spending for this next year. and there's a process. it's called the budget process. if you really wanted to negotiate over these thing, then he sh shouldn't have said no, 19 times to getting together with democrats to negotiate over the budget. they shouldn't have waited until the week before we hit the default button to say they want to negotiate. this is all about republicans looking for a way out the and it is political posturing on their part. >> i think the president is going to be looking for a way out soon. because it is coming and it is real. >> david, first question goes to you. i want to be clear on what your position is defaults on the nation's debt. do you think that's a problem? >> first, i don't accept the

premise that the republicans are responsible. it's over obama care and over the other issues. you cannot get president obama to the table unless you use these levering points. you say lets do it in the course of business, but he never does it. >> there's a budget on the table that significance any guys that. >> they finally passed one budget after not doing it for four years. obama has said on letterman and other shows that the debt is not that big of a deal. >> i'm still confused. because there's a budget on the table in congress that the senate passed that house also passed their budget. they've wanted to get together to negotiate. the republicans have said no. so a budget has been passed. in terms of the deficits, they are going to be cut in half by the end of this year. >> no thanks to obama. >> big thanks to obama. >> for things he inherited and our spending is at record lows. so look, all of these things are being done. this isn't about spending.

if it was about spending we would have already had a deal. this is about obama care. >> obama care is spending. >> defaults. defaults. do you think default is a problem? >> pardon me? >> do you think default is a problem? >> of course i think it's a problem. but i think it's worth republicans fighting. this is a hill to die on. we don't have many opportunities to bring obama to the table. and that is what it takes. obama care is destroying our health care system. not one thing that obama promised is coming to fruition. it is a lie all the way down. >> so you're going to default over that. >> we're not going to default. if the debt ceiling is not raised, that does not constitute a default. we can still pay our bill, interest on the debt and social security. and for obama to deny that is dem goingry and dishonest. >> every president is dem going. >> i know you said on twitter,

you only came to hang out with stephanie cutter. that was tweeted. but i want to ask you some questions. i actually agree with president obama that the debt ceiling default would be catastrophic. and i think that we are facing that real, that real catastrophe. i agree with him that even flirting with a default is dangerous. and for those reasons, if i were him, i would do everything i could to avoid it. i would negotiate with anyone. i'd get myself to a table and say let's find something that we can agree on to avoid this. even to avoid flirting with it. why hasn't he done that? >> quell, i think you can start with something that david just said here, that obama care is a hill to die on. that is a pretty grim picture of what we're dealing with. >> why obama care, though? i brought up the debt ceiling. >> that's what this fight is all

about. >> republicans want spending cuts in exchange for the debt ceiling. >> what the president has already done is he sat down with republicans. democrats sat down with republicans. they came up with a deal, a deal that steny hoyer and others said this is not a good deal for us. they werevociferous. there's a very simple way to solve this. my name was bill, i was brought up on schoolhouse rock. i'm just a bill. all fact based. >> true. >> if they just have the vote, if there is a bipartisan majority, why the theatriree a theatrics. all over a law that was passed by the house, passed by the

senate, ratified by the supreme court of the united states. >> shame. this was crammed down the people's throats. and it is not, it is not popular. and obama has refused to back off of it at all, because, as matt lauer said, this is obama's baby. this is not about obama and his nas sichl, no offense, i know you used to work for him. this is about the best interest of the united states. i don't care if it's his baby. he is going to, in the end, bring down his own party as well as the nation by insisting on obama care because he lost in 2010, the congress because of obama care, 2012 because of the limbaugh there rum my brother talks about. he's never held accountable for his own auctions. >> he won the election where the american people overwhelmingly reler reelected him. >> that's amazing. >> that's how democracy works. >> democracy doesn't work like

this with congress not yielding to all my dictates. yes. that's exactly how a constitutional republican works. checks and balances. >> they didn't yield. they voted to pass obama care. why, why is the president being so strong in his position. >> harry reid apparently is telling the president, don't negotiate. is that who he's listening to? >> i think what the president is saying, if we buckle on this, we keep buckling on that, where does it end? >> you take credit for it. >> let's take, let's say the president were to give up obama care. we say you know what? i don't want to default. obama care is repealed. it's done. i will agree to that deal. where does it stop? >> that's not the argument i'm having. i'm not saying give up obama care or we default. i'm saying attach the debt ceiling to spending cuts, deficit reduction, which, by the way, has historically happened, multiple, dozens of times, and,

which the american people, 61%, according to recent polling, think should happen because congress cannot be trusted with spending. that's what i'm saying. and you haven't answered yet why the president won't negotiate if he thinks defaulting is so catastrophic. >> number one, he has negotiated. we have negotiated a bill that republicans wanted. that eric cantor said would be a win. and second, you know, let me take a step back in what's happening here. i think that we are in a period of politics that you could say started with the recall of gray davis, where elections suddenly don't matter as much as they used to because americans or members of congress or members of the tea party, however you want to look at it, say i didn't like the outcome of that election, i'm going to try to undo. >> wisconsin. >> i'm not putting it on one party or another. but what i'm saying is that we're in this new phase where there's no time in the process

to actually make progress. so as people are at loggerheads constantly, all we doing is moving backwards, because the world is saying you can't even deal with your own government. >> i think we are at a unique point of dysfunction. but i want to point out a couple things about negotiation. the last time we were in this position where the president set up a negotiation process with john boehner, john boehner couldn't negotiate because he didn't have any control over his tea party. people lost money in their 401(k)s. the stock market dropped. we got a downgrade in our credit rating. who do you negotiate in the house of representatives? boehner keeps moving the goal post. tea party's in control. ted cruz is in the senate, but he's calling the shots in the house. >> we didn't get a downgrade because of the impasse, but because of obama's economy and this dechlt $17 trillion of

debt, unfunded liabilities which obama has stated he has no intention to do anything about. but obama has got his way, not withstanding your statement that we keep having gridlock. he got his way on the stimulus, obama care, dodd frank. and on the ways he can't get his way on, he has done an end run around with the executive order. it's shameful what's going on. and look at the results of obama's agenda being implemented. the worst recovery in 60 years. you talk about the best debt reduction in 60 years? you compare it to a different base lean of 1.1 trillion starting. and he has only reduced the deficit because republicans made him. you guise ought to be ashamed -- >> successful negotiations. >> i am scared of our future, for our future, because we won't do anything to rein in the debt and spending.

>> are you ashamed of his record? >> i think it's fair to say i am not ashamed of the president's record because i was there. >> when they reelected him. >> stephanie was there when we pulled this economy back from the brink. the auto industry got saved. the war in iraq was ended. the war in afghanistan was winded down. the president inherited a historic disaster of an economy, and what he's been able to do through the leadership of himself, his economic team at the white house, partners in congress is bring it back and put us on a path to growth as opposed to the path it was on, if you recall, shutting 700,000 jobs per month when he came into office. >> he inherited a bad economy caused by policies that he endorsed like the housing policies, and bush had a good economy for six to seven of his eight years. and unemployment averaged 5.3%. the deficit.

>> that's right, he inherit add awesome economy from clinton. >> bush turned record surpluses into record deficits. and that's a fact. but we have to go to a break right now. when we can continue this when we come back. david, in a minute, i also want to ask you about the latest proof that voters, including many republicans are getting sick of these antics. they're tired of being pushed around by the tea party.

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welcome back to crossfire. we're talking about washington's dysfunction. both president obama and speaker boehner held afternoon press conferences today. and it turns out people are getting really tired of the tea party's anparticular, even republicans. the washington post reports that people are starting to run against the tea party members. only 52% approve of how their party is handling the negotiations. 45% disapprove. the tea party is getting stale. republicans are saying this all over the country. they're tired of being held hostage. >> absolutely, establishment, rockefeller republicans are saying this. >> more than half the party.

>> this has been going on for a long time, and yeah, they don't approve of us redneck tea party people. >> those are your words. >> yeah, facetious. reagan was a social conservative. tea parties are concerned about spending and the budget. but it formed because of the concern over the spending, run away spending, including some during president bush's, but you guy the talk about the tea party being extreme. we just want to enforce the republican platform. the republican platform has not changed. obama is the one who is extreme and his democrats are extreme. we've had an incremental march of socialism and statism for the last 70 years, with the exception of the reagan years, and even then spending went fluts because he couldn't control congress. but now we've got, the tea party wants to rein it in wants to

pull it in. and obama wants fundamental change. fundamental, those words were precise. >> let me turn this around. are mood rat democrats also in a tough spot and vulnerable too? look at these ads running now in arkansas for the campaign next year. >> exemptions and special subsidies for mark pryor, higher insurance premiums for you, voting with obama, voting against arkansans like you. >> are you worried that president obama is jeopardizing the senate in 2014? >> look, i don't think that this is the first time when there's a democratic president democrats in red states aren't necessarily going with the president. i'd be worried about mitch

mcconnell where he has the challenge from the right that's starting to eat in his support. i would be worried about what's happening in georgia where democrats put up a candidate. and paul brown is charging forward. and in virginia where kuch nellie is tied to the shutdown is having real problems. this is just making the bottom fall out for his campaign. so if you're looking at the -- >> so you feel good about 2014? >> if you look at the politics of this, i think democrats are doing much better than republicans are, in a situation that democrats never would have asked for. don't want, would never want. >> just the opposite. they are sitting behind closed doors, secretly laughing, this is great. >> not true. >> contrary to what they're saying, they're not as happy with what's going on. that's why we see the panic and the hysteria. obama's polls are cratering.

the pettiness, the way he's shutting down things he wants to shut down and lying about obama care. >> losing a lot of independents. >> yes. >> let's not talk about who's losing independence. >> we all seem, nobody challenges this, that everybody says we just want everybody to get along. i we want them skipping along, kumbaya. i want what's best for the nation. if the only way to get it in this case is to use these strategies the republicans are using, then i endorse them. >> you're with ted cruz who that, i don't think washington needs more compromise. that's what he said on fox news. >> compromise is not the end game. nor is it going out for cocktails. the end game is bringing america back to its founding principles. getting it to live within its

means. we have forgotten about growth. we don't even talk about growth. >> that means more shut dourn? potential default on our debt? impact on economic growth? that's what all this means. if you're not going to compromise. >> no, no, economic growth is the obama tenure, the dampening of economic growth. his entire tenure. worst recovery in 60 -- 50 years. >> worst economic disaster in 60 years. >> you guys -- >> i will say that i do agree that you don't need everybody in washington to agree all the time. and the fact is, i'm never going to agree with everything. there is such a log jam that nothing can happen. >> if obama stuff happens. >> it is hurting our connection. when you talk about the president's extreme general, i don't know what measure you're using to stay president's

policies are extreme. what the president has done are mostly pretty popular things. even thing that weren't popular when they got passed. i think the american people are so undecided. they're so 45/45. the thing the tea parties supports. >> to david's point it does seem like there is a sense on the left of giddiness around this shutdown that it is working. i thought it was really inappropriate that they sent out fundraising e-mails over the shutdown. do you think while the president was refusing to negotiate. do you think that was -- do you think that set the right tone in. >> republicans have been raising money off this. you just showed me an ad they were running.

>> the exact language was we cannot watch this happen. it is up to us to call out every last republican we can and make sure the american people know exactly who caused this mess. it just seem like this is petty politics and there is an ethos, yeah, let the shutdown happen. it is working. >> i guarantee that stephanie and i are in more closed door meetings than you are. >> true story. >> and there is no giddiness about the shutdown. >> your example is ten time over on the republican side. and they're on record. michele bachmann saying we've never been happier. ted cruz saying we got what we want. >> yes, they want the government shut down. you know we won't delay obamacare. here we are. >> what hurts the economy, back to your point. what hurts the economy is the shutdown and the default.

it is obama bad-mouthing the economy, scaring the markets. always pitting people against each other. that hurts the economy. and his policies are killing the economy. overtaxing, overspending. believe in manager. believe in its founding principles and let's restore growth. believe in the people and what they can do. >> that's a the loe. a big grab bag of things. i just -- the president doesn't demonize well. he thinks that, he thinks that business is good, that growth is good and has grown this economy in a way that i don't think that was obvious when he came into office. >> that's like saying white is whack, black is white. >> more people have jobs than when he took office. is growing is growing, not shrinking. >> those are just facts. >> we don't have any kind of

robust growth. it is anemic growth. just by the population increases. this, we have got egregious unemployment. sustain egregious unemployment rates and more people leaving the work force than ever before. this is a scary time of i think we're on borrowed time because of the continuous money the fed is pumping in. >> if this is such a scary time, it is no time to 20 to the default on debt. it is no time to spike interest rates that could affect everyone from students who have loans, small businesses trying to grow. huge corporations. >> start being responsible and get the government off peel's backs. and quit calling a small groof that republicans irresponsible like obama who never says anything bad and polarizing said today. >> i think we solved this problem in a half an hour. it was a great debate. thanks. we want to you weigh in on

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welcome back tonight on "crossfire." we've been debating the government shutdown and debt limit fight. that brings us back to our question, who do you think will cave first? 26% of you think president obama will. 74% of