tonight a cnn special. powwow between the powers that be. >> we had a very useful meeting. >> i'm sorry.

did i hear you correctly? >> it was clarifying i think for both sides. >> house republicans meeting with president. and it was productive? forgive our wonderment, but we haven't heard anything like that in the past ten days. so crisis over? >> our teams are going to be talking further tonight. >> well, the president didn't say yes and he didn't say no to a short-term plan that would raise the debt ceiling. and it's unclear what effect any of this might have on the partial government shutdown. but -- >> the president strongly previous a longer-term resolution. >> put a pot of coffee on this. could be an all nighter. this is "shutdown showdown." good evening. i'm jake tapper. welcome to this special half hour of cnn, "shutdown showdown." tonight i'm going to report something that i have not been able to report for ten, almost 11 days now. actual, honest to god progress! it's not a beast of progress, it's a little mouse. it's small. it might run off if it hears a loud noise.

it's fragile. but it exists! tonight here in the nation's capitol, our elected officials or at least their staffers are right now holding some very caffeinated discussions after the most promising meeting of this entire week and a half ordeal. this evening, house republicans returned from the white house after making president obama an offer to raise the debt ceiling for a six-week period in exchange for further negotiations about the nation's debt. if the limit on the debt ceiling is not raised within a week, the government will not have all the money it needs to pay all of the bills after that. now, president obama did not immediately say why to the gop offer, but he didn't say no, either. in fact, the white house called it quote a good meeting, which is practically a group hug compared to the tenor of the rhetoric leading up to this. but even if a deal is reached on the debt ceiling, what about reopening the government? a democratic source familiar with tonight's white house meeting tells our jim acosta that the president doubled down or tripled down or qaudrupled down.

it's hard to keep track at this point. on his position on this partial government shutdown. no concessions for reopening the government, he said. joining me to talk about these late-night negotiations is republican congressman steve sutherland of florida who was a member of the 2010 tea party freshman class, attended the gop's white house meeting with president obama earlier today. and of course i'm always joined by chief political analyst gloria borger and chief congressional correspondent dana bash. congressman, first of all it's your birthday today. 48. and you got to spend it with eric cantor, john boehner, president obama and now us. this is exactly how you dreamt of >> it if you'd have told me that four years i'd have said no way. >> i can tell this meeting tonight was serious because not a lot of details were coming out. but tell us what you can. tell us about the meeting, the tenor, and what was discussed as much as you're able to. >> well, first of all, thank you for having me on tonight. all of you. >> and happy birthday. >> thank you very much. we were very optimistic with the

invitation that we could go and sit down with the president. so as we went to the meeting, we were hopeful that we will be able to begin discussions and have a conversation. one of the things -- >> about what, though? about the debt, about obama care? >> well look, we've been very clear that we wanted to extend the debt ceiling. we also -- we offered to appoint conferrees to begin a longer-term budget discussion between the conferrees but also to have a working group of individuals that would have a conversation about the budget and about issues facing our country. and to get the government back open. that was the impetus of our third request. and so we outlined that before we went in to the meeting. and that's basically what we talked about for the houf hour and a half that we were there. and it was received i think very well.

>> so how do you get around the elephant in the room, which is the defunding of obama care, which is right there when you talk about opening the government. and you guys wanted to defund obama care. the government shut down. and the president says no way. i know you had a really nice meeting and you all like each other now and all the rest and you've stopped calling each other names. >> i didn't say that. >> but you've stopped calling each other names. but how do you get -- is defunding obama care off the table as part of the reopening of the government? >> well, you know that we passed four resolutions out of the house. >> i know. >> but you also know that the first resolution was a defund. and then we continued subsequent resolutions, a delay. we also sent the subsidy repeal for members of congress. so i think you could see that we began different attempts, okay,

to effect the health care bill. i'm pleased that the president said look, if we can have a discussion we're going to talk about parts that he agrees. >> so it's not off the table. >> obama care in general is not off the table but defunding it is. >> well let me say this. the one thing you don't do when you come away from a positive meeting, you don't torpedo those efforts. and so to be able to tell you, okay, hey, this is what we discussed in that meeting and this is going to be one of the topics that we're going to go through over the next -- tonight, okay? we've agreed to stay throughout the evening and talk tomorrow. and i don't think that it's positive to take anything off the table. >> and the president met -- look. i think that he recognizes -- >> you would think it's positive to take that off the table. >> look. let me say this. you have to have an attitude of respect. and today i think we had that. and we would not -- we would not commit to anything outside that

working group that's working right now as we speak. >> now, i know that you want to respect the gentlemen's agreement not to talk too much about what happened in the meeting. >> i do. >> but we're reporters. we can tell you what we've heard from other sources. my understanding is that -- we know it lasted for about an hour and a half, and that the president was pretty emphatic that he wanted to reopen the government and start talking about that before the debt ceiling extension even temporary one. and you all led by john boehner were saying we've got to do the debt ceiling first and going round and round. and there was a moment with his former vice presidential rival paul ryan where it was the eureka moment where you all decided, okay, enough already. let's talk about talking. and that's when it led to the discussion about going back and trying to see if there is some possible way to reopen the government with conditions. >> well, i think -- >> even though the president says he won't do conditions.

>> look. the president has been very clear with his beliefs. and i think that speaker boehner and our conference have been very clear with ours. but there's always a moment i think when negotiations get to a point where you feel like, okay, maybe we need to listen a little more, and where everybody comes back to the -- >> that was the point? >> let me just say, paul and the president certainly have a pass through the last election and i think there's a great respect between them. you can't make that up. it is only because of the path they've traveled together. so i think the communication between paul and the president i think was an important part of the conversation. >> can i ask you a question? i don't still fully understand given especially that the funding of the government idea, we're talking also about that being a short-term bill. it originally was just through november. >> correct. >> i guess at this point it might extend into december. but it's still not a long-term government funding bill. why is the government still being kept closed? i don't fully understand this.

you have the president's attention. you have i'm sure there's going to be some sort of discussion that comes out of this. but at the end of the day you have 800,000 furloughed workers, the memorials and the parks closed, you have poor women who depend on nutrition and formula through the wic program. >> military. >> about to hit the wall. veterans and g.i. bills. >> y'all are smart people here. clearly you've seen the bill that is we've passed out of the house on a bipartisan basis. look we've had democrats join with us in several of those bills the president has signed into law. so just today the survivor benefit that he signed into law tonight. i think that's positive. so to -- head start and the wic program. >> why keep the government closed? why? >> if you're piecemeal refunding it, why not just open it, right? >> look. we're having a longer discussion, that was our third ask that we would have a -- or

excuse me that the conferrees on the budget second ask and the third ask would have a discussion that i think should delve into some even bigger issues, long-term entitlement reform, tax reform. and we recognize that those are going to be long discussions. they're not going to be something that we can solve between now and when the government can open back up. >> certainly not. >> but one thing i want to be very clear, as we talk about -- i hear music in my ear. that is a birthday song? are we going to sing happy birthday now? >> that thing you're going to could be clear about? hold that thought. dana, gloria, stay with us. stick around. here comes the hurt. the reviews are in and the polls plummet. who will survive the cliff dive after ten days of government unplugged? stay with us. [ paper rustles, outdoor sounds ] ♪ [ male announcer ] laura's heart attack didn't come with a warning. today her doctor has her on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack, be sure to talk to your doctor

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president obama said he would negotiate but not with a gun to the head of the american people, he said. now that so-called gun may be lowering. but are we any closer to a deal? that's coming up next. jc: lunch at that one restaurant we all like?

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both sides believe they have staked out the moral high ground and argued it's the other side being completely unreasonable. >> we can't make extortion routine as part of our democracy. democracy doesn't function this way. >> the president's position that, listen, we're not going to sit down and talk to you until you surrender is just not surtainable. it's not our system of government. >> i'm joined now by and earlier in the program by congressman southerland, a republican of florida, one of the tea party republicans who is helping to drive this current debate. is that fair to say do you think? you think so?

okay. and also of course gloria borger and dana bash. >> like an exit row opt plane. you have to say yes. >> happy birthday. >> there is a new poll out tonight from nbc and the "wall street journal." and it continues this drum beat of not such great news for the republican party during this showdown. here's one number that is particularly interesting. who is to blame for the showdown? republicans, 53% blame the republicans. 31% blame president obama. 13% both equally. that's a fairly wide divide. 53% of the american people, even though president obama's approval ratings are below 50. most americans blame republicans. this is not good for your party. >> where are the democrats on that poll? are they in there? >> a standoff between the republicans and president obama at this point? >> no. look, you can't talk about this in its totality without talking about harry reid and the democrats in the senate. so i mean, look.

>> all the other polls show the republicans are experiencing much higher disapproval than democrats. >> well first of all, everyone knows that on a government shutdown in a debate like this that the party that believes in a smaller government, more efficient government, is the one that's typically going to get blamed. i think that's fair. >> really? >> i think that's the reason that i think the president whose ratings have been going down consistently really was hoping that something like this would happen. >> you think president obama was hoping the shutdown? >> i think this. i think that everyone knew, okay, over the last several months with the syria conflict and the economy and everything that we were seeing, the jobs numbers, it's been a difficult several months for the president. and so therefore, if we're able to come to an impasse that we know that the republicans are going to get blamed for, then why -- >> but he didn't actively do this. the republicans said, we want to try and defund obama care.

that wasn't his idea. >> his signature legislation. or we'll shut down the government. >> when it became very apparent that harry reid was going to dispose of that then we continued to send other bills. >> no, i understand. you said that. but here's the question i have, and jake is talking about the polls. the "wall street journal" poll this evening was overwhelming in its evidence that republicans are being held accountable here and to blame, that 70% of americans said republicans put their political agenda over the national interests. that's not a great number. and so my question to you is, are republicans panicking about this? worrying that it could cost them the house? >> guys, am i the picture of panic? >> well, it's your birthday. >> no. we're not panicking. >> on the other side of the

pillow. >> people out there hear tea party class of 2010. you are kind of a very typical example. so i want to ask you. just in terms of the new kind of politician. you've never held public office before, right? >> correct. >> you're a funeral director by trade, correct? >> owner. >> he's a businessman. >> no. no. and you're representing a district that was represented by a democrat for how many years? >> well, a republican hadn't won this seat since 1882. >> okay. so based on all that, what are you hearing from your constituents about this? like to grower wloria and jake' about the polls? are you hearing atta boy? >> we're hearing some of that. let me say this. now is not the time to get an accurate poll number. so let's be very very clear. >> do you feel pressure to reopen the government? >> i feel pressure to do the right thing. and i think that what we have stated all along is that the right thing is that we have a system where there's no special

treatment for anyone. look, our founding fathers do believe or they did believe that a self-evident truth that all men were created equal. i think to have a signature piece of legislation such as the president's health care bill and the president himself, his family, his cabinet and all the executive branch do not have to go into a system that is so great thought doesn't apply to them is to me it undermines the basic tenet of freedom that all men are created equal. >> why is the public reacting this way then? why are these numbers all in this direction, anti-republican? >> first of all, people don't like uncertainty. we know that. so i think this is an uncertain time. and i think that the government shutdown, and i think the debt ceiling, that's a lot of uncertainty. i think that going to war just on the syria issue several weeks ago, more uncertainty. i don't think people like that. and that's a natural god imbred

instinct. and i think that's normal. >> congressman southerland, thank you so much for coming in it's been a real pleasure. >> thank you. >> i know there's a lot of things we have to talk about and i want to have you back definite definitely. >> and happy birthday. >> thank you. >> coming up, this majority is anything but silent. 60% of americans say fire them all! every member of congress! will the calls to throw the bums out finally make a dent in washington, d.c.? stay with us. [ coughs, sneezes ] i have a big meeting when we land, but i am so stuffed up, i can't rest. [ male announcer ] nyquil cold and flu liquid gels don't unstuff your nose. they don't? alka seltzer plus night fights your worst cold symptoms, plus has a decongestant. [ inhales deeply ] oh. what a relief it is.

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paging malcolm gladwell. 60% of americans say in a new poll, terminate them. every member of congress including their own representatives. will that finally be the number that scares washington, d.c. into action? stay with us. americans take care of business. they always have. they always will. that's why you take charge of your future.

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incumbents just became a four-letter word. 60% of americans want to see every member of congress canned, including their own representatives. that's according to the latest nbc news-"wall street journal" polling. although i find it hard to believe. at the end of the day, the american people say oh, i hate my congressman. >> hate congress but love their congressmen. >> these specifically said they want their own representative out. at 60%. >> that never happens. the irony in this to me in that same poll obama care as a result of this in the last month has grown in popularity? >> do you think that's democrats rallying to obama's side? >> it might be that. >> it may be. but the republicans have stepped on their own message. >> exactly. and that's why he wasn't probably going to tell us about this, not supposed to talk about what happens in private.

>> he did confirm that paul ryan. >> he did. >> second source. >> but i mean from the morning this morning when house republicans met, i was told that there was so much anger expressed about the fact that the government's not open and that republicans are getting in trouble. >> all right, dana bash, gloria borger, thank you so much for joining me as always. thank you for watching. i'm jake tapper. catch me weekdays at 4:00 p.m. eastern on "the lead" have a great night. "crossfire" starts right now. welcome to "crossfire." the i'm newt gingrich on the right. >> i'm van jones on the left. speaker john boehner and the house republicans met with president obama this evening. the white house says it was a good meeting, but they're still negotiating a deal to raise the debt limit and reopen the government. all day long we've been hearing talk of a short-term deal. now, by all accounts this deal is not going to include any changes to obama care, but the

question is, is that going to fly with the most ardent opponents of the president's health care reform? >> senator ted cruz of texas in the "crossfire" tonight along with democratic senator sheldon lighthouse of rhode island. we're delighted to have both of you with us. >> glad to be here. >> glad to have you here. welcome to "crossfire." we're going to start with you. you kind of got us into this whole situation. you're the guy you had this great plan. you're going to take obama care out. this plan seems to have come up short. now the conversation seems to have moved on, left you behind, left obama care behind. paul ryan puts out this "wall street journal" op ed, doesn't include obama care. now we're going to let the debt ceiling without obama care being touched possibly. would you support paul ryan moving forward to get this debt ceiling thing resolved without your obama care obsession in there? >> well van, you're trying hard. i've got to give you credit for that. and an awful lot of washington would like to change the subject. an awful lot of washington would

like to stop focusing on obama care. but you know who hasn't stopped focusing on obama care is the american people. the reason the house of representatives has stood strong on obama care is that millions of americans rose up and said look, this thing isn't working. this thing is killing jobs. it is taking away people's health care. it is not working. and that's what we need to stay focused on. >> well, you were kind of a lone voice on that now. it's almost kind of delusional sounding your entire party is now moving on. your entire party is saying that this debt ceiling catastrophe that we're on the verge of doing needs to be resolved. now, you said, you're on record saying you don't even want to deal with the debt ceiling collapse without making obama care a part of that. are you still on that position? paul ryan says let's deal with the debt ceiling. are you saying we can't deal with the debt ceiling until we deal with the obama care obsession? >> i whole country understands we have way too much debt. under president obama the debt has gone from roughly $10 trillion to nearly $17 trillion. it's larger than our whole

economy. and i think we need to do structural reforms to get our spending under control. but at the same time, you got to fight one thing at a time. you can't fight everything at once. we are in the middle of an epic movement, millions of americans have risen up and said, they want relief from obama care. so washington -- listen. politicians in both parties in washington have not been listening to the american people. but over 2 million americans signed a national petition at don'tfundit.com. because obama care isn't working. >> let me ask it from a different angle. the republicans in the house have now put on the table a six-week extension of the debt ceiling. partially in response i suspect to secretary of the treasury jack lew saying this would be a disaster next week. >> and every ceo and -- >> from your standpoint you were down at the white house today with the other senate democrats. could you vote for a clean six-week extension to move the

debt ceiling down the road just to make sure we don't go to default? >> i think what we'd want to see is the government put back to work as well. and i think there's support for that in the senate. that way we get off of the hostage negotiations that are going on right now. we get to regular negotiations. everybody i know in rhode island knows the difference between negotiating and negotiating while holding hostages. and i understand why the republican party wants the leverage of holding a government shutdown and the economy hostage. but i really think it's important that we do our level best to both take away the threat of the debt limit and reopen the government. and then everything's on the table. of course it is. but we want to negotiate like americans do and not with guns to each other's heads. >> as the former speaker of the house, the president has a veto pen. senator reid can block virtually everything in the senate. so in terms of hostage taking i

think from the republican perspective there's a pretty fair amount of hostage taking from the democratic side. >> well, those are parliamentary maneuvers in the back and forth. this is different. this is hundreds of thousands of federal employees who are literally out of work right now. this is small businesses near parks that are losing their season, the end of their summer season. this is a threat to the entire probably world economy if we don't get the debt limit right. this is negotiating with hostages with a very real threat to shoot them and very real damage to the country if we do. and i think that that's an important difference in all this. we've got to recognize, and i think americans recognize there's a difference between negotiating. >> i know you disagree with this. >> and negotiating with hostages. >> sheldon, let me ask you a question. are there bipartisan areas we can agree? the senate in the midst of this battle had a brief moment of bipartisan cooperation. let me finish the question.

where we unanimously passed a bill that the house had passed to fund the men and women of our military. so why was it that you voted to fund the men and women of the military? >> i think that while people are in service overseas and putting their lives on the line for our country, that we owe them a special obligation. i don't think -- >> and i agree with you. >> i don't think doing that means that it doesn't change the underlying equation. the underlying equation is that you are insisting on not just good faith negotiations but negotiations with hostages. and your willingness to let the occasional hostage out while holding all the other hostages doesn't change that fundamental principle. and i think that's fundamentally wrong and it's fundamentally unamerican. and it's fundamentally different than what the -- >> sheldon, but the house has passed 14 bills to fund vital government priorities. all 14 of them are sitting on harry reid's desk. he won't allow the senate to vote. so let me ask you a question,

which is if you voted to fund the men and women of the active military, why are democrats blocking funding to v.a.? do our veterans not deserve the same treatment that our active duty military do? >> i'll concede that the active military was a good thing to pay for. >> but not the veterans? >> no matter how many individual hostages you decide to let go, there will still be others. it doesn't change your underlying dynamic, which is to insist on holding hostages during a negotiation. and whether you let the v.a. go, fine, that's great. but then you still have other people who are getting essential services from government and they all continue to suffer. there is no need to create an artificial crisis and to harm all these people in the country if you really want good faith negotiations. if what you want is negotiations

with a gun to the president's head to force unpopular choices on the american public, that's a different situation. >> why is it a hostage negotiation? why is it a hostage negotiation to have a straight up vote on funding the v.a.? the bill the house passed doesn't mention obama care. it is a clean c.r. on the v.a. it's a binary choice. fund the v.a. yes or no. >> it's not that simple. >> even if we disagree on some issues we can all come together and say our vets should be above politics. >> when you have held virtually the entire federal government hostage, when you say let's do a vote just to let the v.a. out, that's also a vote to continue to hold all of the other agencies that weren't in those bills hostage. it's still a hostage situation. and people get that. >> one minor point. this is the 18th time since 1976 that the congress and the president have been at an impasse and we've shut the government down. this is not like this is a brand-new suddenly discovered

thing. we've done this 18 times. >> it's been rotten every time. >> it's often the only way the congress can get the president's attention. these don't happen by accident. >> you have the president's attention. my gosh. he is extraordinarily concerned about the harm that the shutdown is causing to people across this country right now. and he's extraordinarily concerned about the threat to our currency and our credit. >> not enough to negotiate. >> negotiate or negotiate with hostages. there's an important distinction that everybody understands. >> we've done this 17 other times. >> let's move on. i think we've heard this before. i think we understand where you guys are coming from. there's some stuff that are new developments. one the new developments is you talk about what's popular and what's unpopular. one thing that's unpopular is the republican leadership. you've become one of the most prominent republican in this town. we now have polling data republican party less popular than it's ever been in the history of the party which is shocking. i wonder if you now -- we're all

friends here. we can talk. do you feel like you owe your party an apology? listen, you have people who believed in you. they believed that you were going to somehow be able to defund obama care. they believed in the strategy of shutdown might have a chance. they followed you into a ditch. and now there's obviously no chance that obama care is going to be defunded, and we're on the brink of a horrific default. do you think that in the reflection of your own heart you might say you know what, i'm a new kid here. i think i owe you guys an apology. >> you know, van, i know you desperately want to change the topic from obama care. and it is striking that -- >> on the default? the destruction of the world economy? >> van, let me answer your question. listen. democrats in this town do not want to discuss obama care. why? because it isn't working. we saw this week president obama's approval ratings are at 37%. the lowest it has ever been. the "wall street journal" poll just came out. and democrats have the lowest support among the middle class

they've had in 40 years of polling. why is it? and it's for two reasons. number one, because house republicans are working to fund vital government priorities. they passed 14 bills to do it. and president obama and the democrats refuse to negotiate. and number two, it is because house republicans are listening to the millions of americans who are losing their jobs, who are being pushed into part-time work, who are facing skyrocketing health insurance. >> do you agree with this? is this your analysis, senator whitehouse? >> the notion that obama care is a failure i think is a product of right wing histrionics. i went into our insurance exchange in rhode island when i was home over the weekend. there was a family at the front desk. they had been in earlier to get waited on and to get served. and they were so happy with the way they were treated that they were now coming back. they brought in two big tubs of dunkin donuts coffee and stacks of doughnuts for everybody.

the report from kristi ferguson who's running it is that people are hugging their employees when they find out what the options are. the idea that cms, that's a pretty anecdotal story. cms has adjusted the long-term 2010 to 2020 costs for medicare and medicaid down by $1.2 trillion from the 2010 estimates to 2013. you got to believe that obama care has something to do with those huge savings. the republican party decided that obama care was going to be a failure early on before obama care was even decided. it was a political choice to pull all support for everything that this president wanted to do. now they have to live with it so they have to maintain that story line. i have to tell you, senator cruz, i don't see it at home. i don't believe it. and i think if you know anybody who had a child say with a pre-existing condition who was trapped in their job for the rest of their lives because they could never move because no other insurer would ever cover for them or the child who got

out of -- went beyond the cap and the parents had to sell their house in order to pay for the continued cancer treatment because they've blown through the cap, those are situations that needed attention. and obama care has fixed them. >> and let me respond to that. with two things. number one, it's interesting that you apparently found a family in rhode island that went on the exchanges and got insurance. >> 1300. >> it was publicly reported there were 580 in rhode island. in iowa it was reported there were five in the entire state. so the enrollment -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> let me make a second point. which is you said criticism of obama care is quote right wing histrionics. >> yes. >> and i'm curious, if you think it was right wing histrionics when james hoffa the president of the teamsters said that obama care is destroying the health care of millions of hard-working men and women in this country. >> i have heard that mr. hoffa has said that your using that

quote is inappropriate and out of context. >> okay. [ overlapping speakers ] >> hold on. the nice thing about "crossfire" we can have some back and forth. >> we're going to come back to this in a minute. we have to break. keep it out. we'll give you a chance after the break. i do want to suggest something surprising that i think probably senator whitehouse will not agree with. i think the president should be sending thank you cards to all the republicans, including senator cruz. i'll explain why next. i was made to work. make my mark with pride. create moments of value. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt. starting at 49 dollars.

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democratic senator sheldon whitehouse and republican senator ted cruz. >> the point i was going to make close to what i think ted was saying earlier, if we were not in the middle of a budget shutdown, the number of stories you'd have on the front page about the collapse of obama care in most states would be unending. and i think in a sense, obama care has been helped although most recent polling data has not helped very much by the fact that there are other issues that have clouded it. you were going to share with us for a minute the letter from the teamsters. >> senator whitehouse said that the teamsters letter was out of context. it so happens i have -- >> tell us what mr. hoffa has said who's the author of the letter. >> i understand that what mr. hoffa really wants is an exemption for unions. but i have the entire letter here. if you're going to suggest it's out of context i will read you the sentence i was quoting. >> the author told you it was out of context. i'll leave it at that. >> on behalf of millions of working men and women we represent and the families they support we can no longer stand

silent in the face of elements of the affordable care act that will destroy the very health and well-being of our members along with millions of other hard-working americans. now, for the viewers that are watching this who may not believe a republican politician, i'm going to suggest to you that james hoffa, who is a liberal democrat, who has supported the election of president obama and harry reid and nancy pelosi who said in writing that obama care is destroying the 40-hour work week. >> elements of it. >> actually i'm quoting from another portion of the letter that it is destroying the foundation of the 40-hour work week that is the backbone of the american middle class. and if you'd like to read the context, the whole context is there. >> i googled it myself. and i was actually talking about like many people, frankly just like you, there are things that he likes about it and things he doesn't like about it. here's the thing i think we got to be clear about. let's not demagogue this thing. yes, a brand-new program, a brand-new web site that got more hits than twitter got in its

first 24 months in a week has had some problems. but if you look at california, i think 30,000 people have been able to enroll. new york, 40,000 people have been able to enroll. medicare d, that rollout was bumpy. nobody's complaining about it now. romney carro care rollout was b. everybody loves it now. in a couple of years when this thing ace standard part of our country, when insurance companies can no long dump people or deny people, are you going took knowled going to acknowledge you were on the wrong side of this. insurance companies have been denying people for years, dumping people for years. obama care is trying to do something about it. what are you trying to do about it? >> van, the focus should be on the millions of americans who are hurting because of obama care and the millions of people who are being pushed into part-time work, working 29 hours a week because of obama care. and the people, the 110,000 ibm retirees who received a letter

saying they're losing their health insurance because of obama care. the 15,000 ups employees who received a letter saying that they were losing their spousal coverage, their husbands and wives were losing their coverage. van, let me suggest what success should be. i don't know if this deal that was just reported on will be a deal or not. but let me suggest what the test for success should be. success should be meaningful relief for the millions of americans who are hurting because of obama care. my test for success will be, does it help the single mom who's forced to work 29 hours a week? if it does it's a good outcome and if it doesn't it's a lousy outcome. >> let's talk about single moms. if your state, sir, in your state 25% of the people in your state have no health insurance at all. and there are single mothers right now who have cancer, who have pre-existing conditions and they can't get any help from anywhere except through obama care. and fit were up to you, those single moms would be staying up

at night with no hope and no help for them or for their children. and you have yet to put on the table anything that would do something about that. you are now blaming everything that's wrong in america on obama care. that is demagoguery, sir. that is demagoguery. >> let me jump in. we can have that discussion all day long. and it's an important discussion. obama care is big and it's going to make an important difference. and we should be having continued discussions about it. what we should not be doing is shutting down the government of the united states, threatening the credit of the united states, in order to improve a bargaining position and basically force the united states into a hold hostage situation. that isn't helpful. that isn't productive. that is to use a phrase that republicans have used, the box canyon extremists have forced ourselves into. and when we solve that, as soon as the government's back operating, as soon as the debt limit is not threatened by

extremism and we cannot have that shadow fall over our economy, we'll negotiate on everything. >> well, let me respond to both of those. first of all, with all respect, van, what you said is simply not true. i am a big supporter of health care reform. i think we need to allow interstate competition, a national marketplace to lower costs, expand availability and to make health care personal and portable and affordable. and i am a huge proponent of that and have been talking about that a long, long time. secondly what sheldon said there i'm curious. do you think the senate should vote on the 14 bills the house has already passed to fund vital priorities like the v.a., like our parks. >> no, i think that's a complete sham. >> you don't think you can vote on them? >> i don't. you can waste time voting on them. every one you vote is a vote to leave every other agency that's not in that particular bill shut down. >> what do you say to the

veterans? >> i haven't interruchtpted you. to deny the services the american people count on from all those other agencies. i say to the veterans and people who are served by epa and people who have safe stock portfolios because of the securities and exchange commission and i say to people who have fire protection because of federal programs, i say to all of them, open the government up and let's negotiate like americans do and let's not negotiate by harming other people and saying that unless you have it your way you're going to keep hurting these inknow senocents. >> we are going to keep you here. we have at least one more question for our guests and we're going to be right back. don't go anywhere. you guys don't go anywhere. we're not done. [ male announcer ] this store knows how to handle a saturday crowd.

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we're back for the final minutes with our guests, senator ted cruz and sheldon whitehouse. i have one specific question for you. brand-new poll out today that reflects the gradual penetration of obama care's challenges. it indicates that when asked should government mandate americans to buy health insurance, it is 28% yes and 68% no. now, do you think that maybe some reason to at least revisit and rethink some of this? >> i think revisiting and rethinking this in the ordinary procedures is always a sensible thing to do. we have to get away from the hostage dramas and we have to get back to regular order. and when we do, any of those topics can be raised. i would point out one thing.

i would bet you any amount of money that if you said we've got to get everybody into the system in order to be able to solve the pre-existing condition problem so that families aren't shut out on they own when they hit their limits or have a pre-existing condition those numbers would change a lot. that was the balance of obama care. we can always relitigate it. but don't forget the families who are helped. >> that's a very good point. we're starting to get a little bit constructive figuring out how to solve the problem. isn't the irony of obama care simply this? in order to get stuff everybody likes, like no denying of anybody any coverage, you have to accept the stuff you don't like which is the mandate? in other words, what pays for the stuff everybody likes which is that everybody has a shot at health care, is the mandate. how can you possibly say that our insurance companies can cover everybody if everybody doesn't have to pay in? you can't get something for nothing. you're not a sugar daddy are you? >> van because we know it's not working.

three years ago someone might have thought maybe this would work. we've seen what's happened in the time it's been implemented. >> romney care? >> there's a reason why the unions are asking to be let out. there's a reason why democratic members of congress are asking to be let out. in my view, it is not right that the president has given an exemption for big business. it's not right that the president has given an exemption for members of congress, both of which are contrary to law. >> i get that. how would you pay for that? >> and that president obama and harry reid have forced a government shutdown in order to deny that same exemption to hard-working american families. i don't think we should treat the ruling class in washington better than hard-working american families. i think it's wrong that big business and members of congress get an exemption. and i think we ought to treat the american families at least as well. that's what this fight's about. >> i agree with that. how would you pay for it? >> that's the kind of thing we could hash out sitting down at a table together. >> now you know why we continue to have "crossfire". >> listen thank you for being here both of you. means so much to have you