republican votes? he won't get any democratic votes. but boehner needs to pass something to deal with the debt limit, otherwise, he gets rolled by the president and senator harry reid. the toughest decision will be faced by hard line republicans. help boehner get less than they want or cripple boehner and achieve total defeat. i think it's going to be a very, very important evening. and i wouldn't be surprised to see it run over into tomorrow. >> it's a critical evening. look at what we saw today, another credit agency, fitch, said we're on the verge of another credit downgrade of the united states, all because congress can't fix the problem of raising the debt limit. they can't get their act together. if you remember, two weeks ago speaker boehner promised to shut down the government over obama care. i think the american people can't believe this. now look at where we are today.

the deal that's on the table is about extending the debt limit, but telling congressional staff that they're not going to get their employer health care. is it all worth it? i want to ask if it's all worth it to two members of the house maryland democrat and iowa republican. congressman king, we've now been warned that a downgrade is possible. this is the first speaker. if this happens, this will be the first speaker to see two downgrades on his watch. what in the world is going on in the house of representatives? has he lost total control of the caucus? >> it would be the first president. >> i think they're pointing at congress. >> we raised the debt ceiling and we were downgraded after we raised the debt ceiling, not before. so i would argue if you demonstrate fiscal responsibility you're going to get a better credit rating. they lowered our credit rating, excuse me. i would argue that you get a

better credit rating if you show fiscal responsibility than if you do not. >> and do you get that by denying staffers their health care? that what you get? you get fiscal responsibility. >> that wasn't my thought at the beginning. i would say it's not. it is a bitter pill. >> so are you going to vote no on the deal that's sitting before the house right now? >> i want to see the language. but right now i'm leaning no. and i don't want to pull the rug out from under other people. it seems to be up in the air. it's a jump ball right now. >> not having seen the language and noticing that they're continuing to rewrite it, doesn't it strike you as premature for speaker former speaker pelosi in effect to say not a single democrat will even consider voting for this? do you think the minds are that closed? or do you think some people will look at whether or not there's something that could get a

bipartisan vote? >> it's not that. i think the vast majority of our caucus really briefs as the president does is that you don't negotiate over paying your bills on time and keeping the government running. these are basic constitutional responsibilities that the congress has and i think the republicans are being incredibly irresponsible here. and the idea -- and i've heard mr. king say this, that it doesn't really matter if we default on our obligations, that somehow -- >> i didn't say that. >> somehow not lifting the debt ceiling is, you portray it as though it's not a big deal. it's a really big deal. and i think what fitch has done is sent a warning to us, a shot across the bow that says you know what, united states, you put your signature, you have obligations and you have to pay them. and i think most americans agree with us that we do and democrats and republicans should stand up and do that. >> it is a really big deal. we shouldn't be where we are tonight. yesterday former secretary of defense, leon panetta said that

his days from negotiating with us in the '90s he wished president obama was more engaged. senator clinton even said something similar. doesn't it strike you as strange that with all these warning, the biggest sign of leadership we saw yesterday is the president as a volunteer making sandwiches? isn't this also his legacy? and shouldn't he also be more directly engaged in resolving this? >> i think that the president has said we don't negotiate and pay ransom over paying our bills and keeping the government open is precisely because he believes that this is really serious. and, you know, i have to tell you. i looked at letters from secretary jack lew from may to august to september,en whatting that this was going to happen. i mean, since this spring. and so the president knows that he doesn't want, it's not just about his legacy, but it's also

about future presidents being held hostage over paying our bills. it's ridiculous. >> those are really polished talking point, and i've heard them and donna's said them to me before. but i would point out that we have the constitutional authority and responsibility to restrain a president. and that's why we are article one. and that's why the spending starts in the house and the tax revenue starts in the house. and furthermore i continue to hear it's a law now you must fund it. well, the debt ceiling is a law. now we must raise the debt ceiling even though the durnt debt ceiling is the law. and by the way, this law we're talking about with obama care is not the law. the president has at least twice unconstitutionally executively amended obama care, once with the vitter language. >> at the request of the house. >> yes, but also extended the employer mandate for a year k and that's unconstitutional. >> do you want the employer mandate to go back into effect

right now? >> i want to research the constitution. >> we can debate about the constitution all we want. but let's talk about spending for a second. the law is that congress has to raise the debt ceiling to meet its obligations that congress has obligated the country towards. so it is law that you have to do your job. and if you want to have a debate about spending, the president is happy to have that debate. spending is cut by 2%. you're not getting what you wanted. it's cost the country $20 billion. >> this isn't done of course. and i'm not about to take the position that we should simply get up and pack up our bats and go home. we are in the middle of this debate. we have constitutional responsibility and authority. and when a previous congress

should pass and by the way, legislative shenanigan is how obama care got passed. they put automatic spending in there. >> congress pass baobama care. obama care was passed by congress, upheld by the supreme court. we've had two elections on it already. if you're worried, the $20 billion that we've lost because you shut down the government, what could that be paid on? two years of the school lunch program? the women and infant program. >> how much will obama care cost. >> keep in mind congress shut down the government. >> failure to negotiate. and the house passed. >> you don't have to take this from me. take it from republicans who told you this. >> let's look at where we are here. because i want expanded

background checks. we have a law now that doesn't have 100% background checks. it would be -- 90% of the public believes that. what if we were to organize ourselves and say we're not going to pay our bills because i want expanded background checks. that is ridiculous. but that is exactly what it is that you are trying to do-right now. and i have to tell you, for millions of federal workers all across the country, some of them are working and not being paid. others are at home and we passed a bill saying we're going to pay you even though we're keeping you at home. the ridiculousness is at a height i don't understand. the american public doesn't. you could put a clean continuing resolution to fund the government today on the floor, and it would pass the house of representatives. >> let me build on the ridiculousness. i want you to look at what jay carney said today at the white house as a result of how close to the theater of absurd we are. if we could show jay's comment.

he's asked about negotiating. and he ends up saying, oh, aapparently they don't have it cued up. he says we're not really negotiating. we're sort of talking. but we're not really negotiating. it's pretty simple and straightforward. i brief had the president been directly involved in negotiating, again, not that he would have accepted the republican position, but the way you start a negotiation is each side has a position and you talk it through. you participated in trying to help ameliorate part of this because you voted for the clean continuing resolution for dc which would keep the district of columbia government open. don't you think it would have been better for harry reid to have passed that on to the white house so that could be done and out of the way? >> i understand. the dc bill is completely different. because it's about how the district of columbia spends its own money. i separate that. we need to open up all government for all americans.

i've been saying that for a while, passing one piece of legislation that also impacts others. i have people who live in my district who work at nasa and they say what does it mean. i work at nasa but we work with noaa. how does that work. it doesn't make sense to me to open it up one piece at a time. and i have to tell you, if i left it to my colleague, he wouldn't open up dhhs or environment environmental -- what kind of way is that to run the greatest democracy in the world? >> we need to take a break, but when we come back, i want to ask congressman king this. now that the u.s. has been slapped with a warning from a major credit agency that we face a downgrade, what happens if we default? we think it's bad now. it's about to get much worse. customer erin swenson ordered shoes from us online

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welcome back to crossfire. we're here with two members of the house. democrat donna edwards and republican steve king. we've just learned a major credit agency has warned the u.s.'s triple a rating is in

danger. all because speaker boehner couldn't figure out how to get something out of the house of representatives that could pass the senate and the president could sign. so here we are on the verge of a default. congressman king, do you think default is a big deal? i've heard you say some mixed things about this, when we hit default, what the president could do. iowa bankers think it's catastrophic that the value of the dollar will drop, our interest rates will climb, that we could fall back into a recession. why would we even want to get to this point? >> this definition of default is something we should agree to before we go forward with thousand will effect the economy. we have about $18 billion a month is our interest bill. and around $240 billion a month is our revenue stream. 8% of our revenue is necessary to pay the interest. we can either roll the principal over or pay our debt.

>> and not take care of a lot of other things. >> but default would be if we failed to service our debt. that means the first time we miss an interest payment. and that's not going to happen unless it's by order of the president. so we're not going to default. >> what do you think the world's reaction would be if the united states starts parsing out its bills and figuring out what it can pay and what it can't pay. what do you think the reaction would be? >> i don't think october 17th is a hard date. this is something that will come on gradually. at a certain point we will have to raise the debt ceiling. and it's a matter of how we manage that cash know. if this thing gets tighter and tighter, perhaps we get the president to come to the table and we can negotiate and we address entitlements. >> you knew since may -- >> now it's been moved ahead. >> the secretary of treasury said we had to go to extraordinary measures because

congress wouldn't act. and you're asking for more time. every president, every sikt of treasury has given congress notification. here's when we're going to hit our debt ceiling. it doesn't matter whether we hit it on the 16th, 17th -- we should act. >> i want to make a brief note. president's known since may. he's had a chance to lead since may. at some point you can't just say it's all john boehner's fault. >> well, the house has -- >> he had a hundred things he could do, a hundred conversations he could have had, he did none of them. the most he did was make partisan speeches. if we do get to this situation, which i hope we don't get to. i don't see why we should. don't you see that the interest on the debt is the first call on any income. i think you'd have to have social security and veterans as

part of that initial thing. would you support secretary of the treasury making that kind of judgment? how would, none of us want to get there, but if we did get there, how would you recommend the administration handling the actual day to day cash flow crisis? >> i think that the mere fact of talking about how the secretary of the treasury would prioritize our debts would be enough to spend the world into a tailspin. what it would say to our creditors is you may or may not be on the list. and i think that is beyond irresponsible. we're talking about the possibility of default, which would mean higher interest payments for mortgages. higher interest payments for student loans. higher interest payments for auto loans. jeopardizing savings accounts. people are just starting to recover their savings from the last of the great recession. they just started to recover

their savings. and now we're saying to them, you know what? it's going to take a big hit again. and i think, i want to say i don't believe that it can happen, but i have to tell you, listening to my colleagues, including mr. king. please answer for me if there's a single legitimate economist across the world who believes what you're saying, who believes that we can just kind of stretch this out and pick and choose what bills we're going to pay. pick and choose what bills we're going to say. we're saying really, the united states of america, we're going to look at the world and say here's a list and we're going to choose this one over that one. >> it really shouldn't happen. you're really opposed to it. but you're not opposed enough to vote with john boehner to pass something. >> here's what i'm opposed to. i'm opposed to what i think is a rump group of republicans in the congress holding all the rest of the nation hostage and saying in

exchange for ransom, in exchange for paying our bills. in exchange for paying our bills, we're going to default. so i'm not willing to just do anything. because it isn't just about -- you understand history. you're a historian. it isn't just about this president. it's about the next president. and that next >> you want to clarify. you're saying aster bill as default is, voting yes for john boehner is worse. >> voting yes under a circumstance where we're saying that we're trading off and picking and choosing winners and losers with the debt ceiling is a huge mistake because that too, i think, would send a bad signal to the rest of the financial sector, to the rest of the world and to people at home who have savings accounts. i'm concerned about those people. >> in spite of being called a rough group which a certain

person's part of anatomy, what if i accepted your premise what if, what if we accepted the idea that this congress, this elected 113th congress has a duty and obligation to fund everything that's been passed by previous congresses and also raise the debt ceiling whenever we hit the top of that, if you go on like that and up have the most leftist president we ever had in history and we see trillion deficits as far as the eye can see at what point do we look back in history and say those guys and gals failed us. they should have held the line. they should have been willing to face the president shutting the government down and should have made an beneficiary the debt ceiling so we can reform entitlement. >> that's an interesting question because most congresses deal with it by working through a budget process, passing legislation to reduce spending, to not listen to only the hard liners and i'm sorry i don't mean this as an insult you're a hard liner in the republican

congress. and listening -- you went to that dinner last night which is your right to do. you can have dinner with anyone you want. reports there was a secret dinner with ted cruz and plotting your strategy to hold the line on keeping the government shut down so you can defund obama care. we're more than two weeks into this. have you learned nothing? what have you gained? what have you gained? >> i want to move the debt ceiling and i want to do it prudently. i offered this proposal the last time. you were at the table. and atheist. why don't we -- if you love obama care so much take it all. we'll give it all. minus waivers, minus unconstitutional changes and sunset obama care then in january of 2015 and let's have an election in november of '14 and decide whether we really want obama care or not. >> because we had an election in november 2012. we had an election in 2008 over

health care. we cannot talk about whether we reopen government or not and whether we pay our bills because you don't like health care. >> negotiate. >> you don't like the health care law wayne presidential election. >> you want all of obama care? >> both of you stay here. next we see, given this be interesting to see if there's anything you two can agree on. we also want you to weigh in on today's fire back question. if congress funds the government for three months do you think there will be another shutdown in january. tweet yes or no usi using #crossfire. we'll have the results after the break. [ man ] look how beautiful it is.

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i'm wolf blitzer in washington. breaking news. let's go to dana bash. >> the house republican plan that they thought would be up for a vote tonight is now not happening and house republican leadership source tells me this bill is dead. it is not just delayed, it's not going anywhere. you see the crowd of people coming here, members of the house republican leadership walking out of the house speakers office where they formally and officially made the decision they simply do not have the votes within their own republican party to pass this very scaled down version to fund the government and lift the debt ceiling. we'll look back towards the senate. >> it's up to the senate to pass some legislation, get it passed and send to it the house. is that what the next step? >> likely. it's so fluid. this is a late surprise. we're not exactly sure what the next move is.

likely back in the senate's court. >> stakes enormous. more at the top of the hour. let's go back to newt and stephanie to follow up what's going on. >> let me ask you. it your guess boehner tries to write another bill and the whole thing collapses and they move the senate bill. >> looks to me now they will end up notifying senate bill because there isn't room to write something down. perhaps they hit the wall tonight unless they are more creative than i am. >> from your standpoint moving senate bill say tomorrow, saying there's a senate bill is something you could support? >> i think so. you know open the government. lift the debt ceiling. pay our bills. get people back to work. >> do you think speaker boehner will allow this to pass with democratic votes or still demand this be a republican bill? is he going be a leader or a follower? >> that is a tough call. and this crunch time is getting down to where the hastert rule is sitting out in the middle of the table.

i don't know which way that go. i hope donna supports the langford bill. that would absolution that's favorable. >> you'll have the senate bill before you it looks like. will you vote for the senate bill? >> unlikely. >> i'm prepared to vote for a bipartisan bill. we have enough democrats. we need just a few republicans to get the government going. >> bipartisan bill out of the senate and hopefully a bipartisan bill without speaker boehner in the house. >> take a bipartisan vote in the house. >> has to. >> to pass it. >> since we had a bipartisan bill in the first place. >> we committed 186 votes among democrats to pass a clean funding bill and clean debt ceiling. >> you support langford. >> i don't know what that bill is. >> that's a cr -- >> not 120 days. >> 90 days. >> deal with this and not come back and put american people through shock trauma. >> ironically the langford bill

is a longer debt ceiling. >> it is. >> what does it do to obama care? >> doesn't address it. >> this vote on our -- what's your bet any more government shutdowns this cycle or is this over? >> if it's over it's over. . >> come back in january. >> i don't think it comes back? >> i would hope not. >> it's his call. >> is this your cease-fire? >> there's a lot of capital investment put in this thing. when it's time to take the hill you take the hill or die interest. that's where i'm standing. let's take this. rally the troops again after this over, after all of these days and months of going up to this thing is hard for anybody to do. >> let me interpret what you're