you're just part of something bigger than you that's moving faster than you. your dreams are-- just everything feels so limitless. sounds great. no. it--you can't-- it's not about how it sounds. neat. >> coming to you from the heart of times square in new york city, the only city in america, "the daily show." tonight, india arie joins us on the show to have a special conversation about spotify and joe rogan. this is "the daily show" with trevor noah! >> trevor: hey, what's going on, everybody? welcome to "the daily show." i'm trevor noah. tonight, we had an episode planned around the super bowl and ukraine and just catching up on all the news, but i had truly one of my favorite conversations with a human being that i ever thought i could have and that's with our guest today, multigrammy award winning artist india arie. she was here to talk about joe rogan and everything that's going on with spotify and, to be

honest with you, i think the conversation turned into something way more beautiful and i appreciated her sharing it with me, and, so, i decided i had to share it with you, and i really think you will appreciate it. just for today, here it is, a special episode that is one conversation that i think touches on almost everything. miss india arie, welcome to the shore. >> thank you. my pleasure to be here. >> trevor: it's a pleasure for me. i have been a fan of yours from the moment you came out. loved your music, loving your hair, pi the way. i know you're not the hair, but i cannot not comment on it. >> i love your hair, too. we both have more hair than normal. >> trevor: thank you very much. we're both on this journey together, you know. >> yeah. >> trevor: i need to find out what product you use. we'll discuss off the air. >> been trying to figure that out, off the air. ( laughter ) >> trevor: you know, i wanted to have you on the show so we could chat and, you know, it's funny -- >> i'm sorry, can i just say i'm

nervous? >> trevor: i like that. i would like for you to say i'm nervous. >> i needed to get it out. i'm like that on stage. i have to say it so i can move past it, i'm nervous. >> trevor: yes. >> because i'm good at singing about these things and talking about them for me is new, and although i've done a lot of work to own my voice -- >> trevor: yes. >> -- this is a big conversation, a lot of people watching and we're not even going to sing. we're just talking so i'm nervous. >> trevor: you know why i'm glad you said it is because, two things, one, i feel like a lot of people are nervous to have conversations these days, and i think a lot of us are nervous to have conversations because these days conversations get broken down into sound bytes as opposed to the conversations that they actually are. i know that that's happened to you, i know that's happened to me. >> oh, gosh, many times. >> trevor: you try and give a complete thought that is as flawed and as complicated as

human beings themselves are, and then someone will distill you into one part of a sentence that tries to turn you into a lightning rod for a different conversation that you're not trying to be a part of. so let's start with this, because i think i understand this correctly, joe rogan is not your mortal enemy, right? >> goodness... no, and i don't even know him, but my conversation, of course, has been about spotify and its treatment of artists. >> trevor: right. >> but because of what the media does, now it's become this conversation between me and him and about me and him, and i'm willing to have it, because if it's here, it must be had, i suppose, but i don't have any mortal enemies. >> trevor: i like that. let's talk about the music first and then we'll talk about the joe rogan of it all. so, you know, you said something a lot of artists have been talking about with regards to spotify being the biggest player but streaming in general and how, like, musicians have -- i

don't know if tricked is the right word but a lot of musicians have been tricked out of earning money from their music. now labels make the music. we think we're supporting the artist when we're streaming but it's the label and the artist are -- like drake and taylor swift, they make the money, no matter how many people listen to you, india arie. let's include the fact that you are an award winning artist. i've sold 10 million albums worldwide. it's not like you're a struggling artist, you are an artist. but it feels like it's a lopsided game. am i close to understanding the concept? >> you're very close. there are a few distinctions i would make. first of all, spotify is not the only the biggest player but they're the lowest player. the songwriter in me had to come out there.

what happens is they say this is just how it is, this is what you get paid. but the labels in spotify and its streaming platforms together are making those decisions and, so, they're telling you, this is what we decided, this is what you get. >> trevor: i know most music fans think, we listen, you get the money, because we're listening to you. that's why people don't buy albums anymore. we're still supporting you, we think. >> talking about spotify in particular, you listen, we get .003 to .005% of a penny, a fraction of a penny, that's what we get, and that's what makes -- it has been making the professions of producer and songwriter unlivable for a lot of people. i'm blessed that i have been successful, but a lot of people are just doing that as a job that they love and walking this tight rope of taking a chance that using their gifts to take care of their families, they're just working musicians. >> trevor: right.

>> and a lot of people can't do it now because of the pay. the streaming is low, and now the pandemic has cut touring, and so a lot of people are, like, tired of even having the debate whether or not so much to get paid for their work. >> trevor: yeah. yeah, you hear a lot of artists talking about it. and what i think a lot of people missed in the video of yours that went viral was you saying that, you know. as you say, we live in a world now where, i get it, i get click bait. i get people -- these web sites and the news organizations, they need people to come into a story. nuance doesn't sell, the conversation doesn't sell, the click of it sells. you must be sick of talking about joe rogan i'm assuming now because it seems like they've made it about you and him when it isn't. so forgive me for going back to this. let's go back to that video and

that moment. a lot of people saw the video where india arie came out and said here's this joe rogan n-word compilation and here's him telling a joke about black people being apes, and you gave an impassioned plea as to how you as answer artist contributed to the platform that's not rewarding you but that person, and what people were asking is you arguing more about the power you have in the platform you're creating or canceling and wiping out joe rogan's podcast. when you put that joe rogan video out, what were you thinking would happen? >> i have to say asking for my music to be pulled from spotify in protest doesn't actually serve me because now my music, if things work out the way i want, my music won't be heard on the biggest streaming platform, but i did it in protest just

because i felt like my dignity was being -- i felt dills respected. and there's a long conversation about not being heard in the industry, not being respected in the industry, or not just me, but a lot of people, artists of color especially women of color in the industry. >> trevor: right. >> i just thought the only way to affirm my dignity and my integrity is to be honest about how i feel. i ask to just take it down. i didn't expect anyone to listen because i'm used to the certain type of industry where they don't listen to what i say in the song, they don't listen to what i say when there's mistreatment. they don't listen, but i say it. to be honest, it made it easier to say over the years, i can say whatever, some people will hear it, some won't, just to be honest. i was sitting on the couch and i made the decision to saying i

want my music off, i certainly didn't think it would lead to all this. but integrity is big here for me. so being the same person i am inside as the one i act like outside, it made me have to -- made me have to speak up, but also when i'm invited into conversations like this that are a bitted uncomfortable for me because i sing about this but don't talk about it much, i'm willing to show up for it because this is what the world did with the conversation, and all i can do is do my best to express, but i certainly thought it would be easier. i thought they'd say, okay, go ahead, take her off. i had to fight to get it off. i'm still in a fight to get it off. >> trevor: that's really wild. it's really wild -- >> that's a whole other conversation. >> trevor: yeah, it's really interesting. i think what it's exposed about the industry and the conversations it's got us having now. here's my opinion -- in america there's a simplified conversation people like to have because it makes people feel

good about themselves and seems like things are moving forward or not. good person, bad person, good person, bad guy. then we've sold it, ten minutes, done. i know you've spoken on this h. there were parts of joe rogan's apology where you're, like, yeah, i appreciate he has learned he shouldn't be saying the n-word just to prove he's edgy, then you also said i also don't know that i would label him a racist. this struck me because i talked about that on the show, you know, contrary to what click bait will tell you, i talked about it on the show and i said it is something i struggled with and i could see you having a similar struggle in the conversation. i'm only honestly asking this question because i'm in a world of trying to get answers myself. killed you get any closer to understanding that? like, do you think joe rogan is a racist? how do you feel about the whole thing right now? >> i think there are two things we consider when we talk about racism, one is conscious racism

and the other is unconscious racism. and, so, i have learned in my life to make room and forgiveness for people who are unconsciously racist because our whole society is built on racist concepts. so if you're born into it, if you're not actively working to not be racist, then you have some of it in you. i mean, i've had people i love, who i know love me, always showed up for me and were there for me. i had a musician dearly depardon, i could cry when i think about him now, he loved me so much, we played together for 20 years and every time we sang he'd look at me with so much love and admiration. after 20 years, he would go, whew! he would just look at me. we loved each other. but there were time when he would say racist things and i would have to be like, hey -- and my band was mostly black men and women. and we would be, like, hey, hey,

trying to educate him. >> trevor: right. >> because he was born into a world that taught him a certain way and didn't teach him other ways. then there's conscious racism when you know you're doing it and like you said in your monologue, if a person keeps doing it, is that when we call them a racist? if you know you're doing it and keep doing it, i would say that is a racist. so for mow, when i think about -- i want to be nice. i was going to say this name i'm tired of saying, but for me when i think about joe rogan, i think that he is being consciously racist. i mean, since the early 1900s, we've had an agreement in our society that we don't say the word or you have to stuff consequences. so saying it and going what are you going to do? or saying i didn't know there was no context under which i

could say it. i believe he knew there was no context, and he was saying it because it got a rise out of people. he knew it was inappropriate. the fact that he did it repeatedly and was conscious and knew, i think that is being racist, and i don't like even saying that because i'm a sensitive old soul, and i want to believe the best in people. so when i first heard his apology, my instinct was to go, he tried. but when i go deeper and ask myself what i really think from my commitment to truth that i've made this last year, what i really think is that he was being consciously racist and it makes me wonder what he talks about behind closed doors. if you have even a consciousness if you have even a consciousness where you can call black people

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and longer. zzzquil pure zzzs all night. fall asleep. stay asleep. >> trevor: i went back and i watched like a bunch of the podcasts and it's really interesting you say that because i think there are two parts i found myself i breaking it into. one, when joe rogan started doing this thing, it's interesting that you say what does he talk about in private, a lot of podcasts used to be a bopch of people talking in private. the way you say you never felt heard, i think people made podcasts like that, the thing they do in a basement and talk shit or whatever. i will say this as a comedian, the submit we talk about in the comedy clubs, the things we're saying backstage, it's almost like, yeah, it's part and parcel with the job. by the way,eth not that we don't say things that are racist. the amount of times i've said to a comedian around the table, that's racist, and they would be, like, come on, and we fight and are friends because we have more things that connect us than separate us, but we are able to

call things out as being racist or sexist, but we don't say you're not a human being anymore. we'd say, that's racist, and we would fite. >> that's right. >> the joe rogan thing, i watched a guy where these clips are from years ago, not yesterday. at some point, joe roganen realized people were listening, i think, and also did not want to be that person and so he just stopped using it. i think that counts for something, personally. but i also think there's an element of, you know, when they go what my grandmother would say of me when i was young, she would say it in different ways but essentially what you say about me sometimes is you're being a little shit, you know, where you know which buttons to push because you know what it gets out of people. i've found generally not just as a comedian but as a person, oftentimes, it is easy for us to engage in risque or risky topics

or conversations when the danger is not in proximity to us. do you know what i'm saying? it's funny, like even on the show, i remember we used to send people out to rallies, you know to go to trump rallies, and all of, like, the black correspondents who work on the show were, like, i can't go there and it's not fun, you know. and then you would find, like, some of our white correspondents, like jordan klepper, he would go and say it's the weirdest thing. he's not agreeing with these people but they have a chumminess with him where they can almost say whatever they want to say, you know, and there's an element of going, like, ah, i look like you so maybe i think like you. so it's funny you say the thing of the joe rogan because i go, i don't know, it's one of those instances where you go do you put a hand out to a person and hope that they don't, like, chop it off, or do you stay safe and put your hand in the pocket and say, no, it's just safer to

label you this as a human being. so i understand your conflict and the dilemmas you're in, because you're trying to be a person with a soul and spirit and go, joe rogan, i'm glad you acknowledge these things because people who follow you will go, okay, i guess it's okay not to say this word and i'm glad you've acknowledged that, and calling black people racist is not the same thing. but people are going, can you and should you accept that? i think the conversation society is having as a whole is what is the path to redemption? we all want to forgive, get better and change, but what is the path to redemption. i don't think we've figured that out in society. >> i don't think being a bad person and being a racist are mutually exclusive. did i say that right? i think being a racist doesn't automatically make you a bad person. i never knew how to use that

saying. i don't think being a racist makes you a bad person necessarily. it makes you a person raised in our society. but when does it cross over into being a bad person or harmful? in the intellectual circles, what i've learned, they would say it has to be power behind the prejudice to make it racism. you have racist thoughts you can institute with power and that's racism. so if you're joe rogan and have this huge listening audience, by doing that, you embolden them to do that and now we're in trouble as a society. forgive me because i forget this man's name but a harvard professor called it the atomic bomb of racial slurs. i don't believe joe rogan didn't believe it was the atomic bomb of racial slurs, he knew. and even if she was, like you said, just being a little shit, that's one conversation, but if you have the power to institute it and have a whole audience now thinking it's maybe okay for

them to do it, now we're in trouble with this atomic bomb and also -- >> trevor: sorry to cut you off on that. before you move on, that's where i asked the question. somebody asked me the other day in the street, someone walked up to me and said, yeah, i'm glad you destroyed joe rogan. i said, first of all, i don't destroy, slam anyone. there's a lot of language used. comedians, we tell jokes, most to have the time i don't take things that seriously. but i found myself talking the to that person in the streets and i said where do we want to be in the world? do we want to be in a place in the world where resay joe rogan leads people and by saying the n-word and making these jokes he's leading them down the wrong path, but by that, we should also acknowledge that's a good thing him saying he's wrong. i'm genuinely afraid of this in society, i don't want to be in a society where we cast people out

because, like you said, the bad people are so happy for that. it's like another streaming platform or whatever it is, they offered joe rogan money, and i don't know if they'd give it to them, but they say come and bring all the n-word podcasts with you. do you know what i mean? i was going, yo, do i want to live in a world where someone like joe rogan doesn't get a chance and becomes welcomed by the worst of society or do i want to live in a world where joe rogan says, yeah, i (~bleep~) up, i was saying a word and playing with racism and i don't want to be a part of that. ant his listenership is going yeah, joe, we agree with you because we follow you, this is not the cool thing to do. the reason i ask this is i think about it around the conversations of criminal justice reform. a lot of people especially in america live in a world where they commit a crime or live a life that forced them into crimt forced or not forced all the

time, but i don't think anybody wants to do crime, you know. people do the crime, they serve their time, get their punishment, whatever it may be as just or unjust as it may be, but i find society doesn't give them an opportunity to come back even when that's happened and society goes no, you were a criminal. i always ask people, how long are you a criminal for now? >> right. >> trevor: so i wonder do i want joe rogan to join a gang, quote unquote, or live in a world where i say, joe rogan you (~bleep~) up. i think we should all be able to critique and talk shit and say even though you (~bleep~) up, i still don't want you to be ostracized into a world that will encourage that behavior only. maybe that's how i seat it. >> that's how i see it, too, but i don't think we've yet seen change enough behavior from joe rogan to say okay, we're good

now, because i don't think he fully understands what he did there. and, so, i want to tell you, my d.m.s and my comments are wild right now. >> trevor: in what way. >> people just -- all kind of racial slurs and misogynistic ones, too. all kinds. so that says to me that these people who want to defend joe rogan think that this is the right language to do it. so joe rogan needs to do more than go, oh, i'm sorry, if you want to lead your listeners down a new path, then lead them to the point where they don't feel that it's the right language to come into my d.m.s and call me an n-word in defense of him. he needs to teach them they shouldn't feel that way. they're not making him look good. >> trevor: it's an insane irony. >> it's not laughing at it. >> trevor: no, it's insane. they literally come into your d.m.s, call you the n-word,

and say how do you say this about joe rogan, you n-word, he's a good guy, you n-word, and i've write death threat, go back to africa slur, and when people say that to me, it means i need to go on a vacation. i will go back to see my family. ( laughter ) i don't know anyone having the experience but it's interesting you say that. people say to me you're an n-word, coon, they'd throw all of the things in, but in defense of a person who said what i did was wrong and they're going it's not wrong, it's such a complicated ball of -- but that's interesting that you say that. you feel like you would like to see joe rogan do a little more work in the world of tackling what he have did and what it was all about. >> whoo... yes, i would love to see him do more work around tackling what he did and what it's all about because, like i said, we kind of know if you are a certain type of person in this world, if

you're not doing -- especially as a white person, i want to say. if you're not doing the work to not be racist, then it's in you. so joe rogan is given the opportunity now to do the work and to teach other people. like, hey, this is why -- you know, you have this show with 1e listen, lead them. learn for yourself and lead them because now you're making this world a better place. so i would love to see that. also, what you said about being a comedian backstage and what you said before we even came on camera, you said i feel like we need to have messenger conversations. i love the idea to be able to talk about stuff and get some stuff kind of wrong and right and be messy and talk it through, i feel like that is idealistic, but it is what i would love to see, because, in the end, people can act like we're individuals and all that, but we really are interconnected

humanity. so being more and more divided is not going to fix anything. the thing that fixes things is by talking. and maybe the talk won't work. but maybe it would but just automatically being divided does not work. and, so, when i have these conversations on my social media and like you said i'm trying to be nuanced and to unpack it all, it's really hard to do with people who want you to and people who do at you use language as this blunt force instrument, and then they want you to do it, too. it's just not my nature. and, so, i'm trying to unpack it. but i wish that that's what we could do. because what is canceling anybody do? they'll just go somewhere else. so if you have people you influence, do more and say, influence, do more and say, sorry,

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>> trevor: thank you for joining me, and i'm really sorry for the shit storm this has created in your life. i know how horrible it is to have, one, to not feel safe, i'll say that, you know. if i can just imagine some of your d.m.s based on some of mine, i'm sorry for how unsafe it can make you feel as a person, as a woman, as a black woman. >> thank you for saying that. thank you for saying that. thank you for saying that. >> trevor: yeah, i'm sorry for the shit storm this has created in your life and i'm grateful for you to taking the time to

talk to me about it. >> can i please tell you something else? i have to tell you something else, if i may. >> trevor: you can say whatever you like. >> there's one year my life has fallen apart -- it's done that a few times but i put it back together -- but there was a big time in 2009 and one of my mentors gave me the homework of saying who my hero was. you have to pick one. who's your hero. i thought it was a musician. it took me two weeks to figure out that for a lot of reasons, my hero was mia angelo. and, so, because i am magic, i man tested being able to be with her. i went to her house in harlem, we had this conversation, and one of the things i asked her was, like, basically what do i do? how do i navigate life and be my best? we talked about other stuff, relationships, how to for give, broken hearts, all kinds of other stuff. but the really question was what

do i do, and our wisdom keeper, i could cry, she said, just tell the truth. she said, i grew up in a time when telling the truth could get you killed because to have the civil rights movement, and she said i always tell the truth. and i have been working towards being more that person, and in 2020, 2020 showed me that i wasn't always being honest with myself because what i wanted to be able to do was see the best in everyone, see the best in our world, believe that we can be our best. that's what my music is all about. anybody who knows my music, that's what they hear. people know brown skin video, hair, but my catalog is about spiritual ideas and concepts, it's what i do. and wanting to see the best in everything made it so that it wasn't oftentimes seeing what things were.

and this thing i keep referring to of making a decision about being honest, i read this book from a woman named martha and talked about an integrity cleanse. it soundenned right to me because i'm having a disillusionment of how i saw the world and what the world is showing me and growing up. so i decided last summer around may that i was just going to tell the truth all the time and see what it did with my life and, of course, thinking about mia. and that's what i have been doing, and it's hard for me to point at someone and say, no, you're a racist. i don't want to be that person, but, for me, it is what is true, and this hasn't blown up my life, i wouldn't say. i would say it's given me an opportunity to further investigate how honest i can be and the best that i can be,

because maya angelou is my hero because i want to get there some day and the only way to get there is to be like her. so i want to be a person who can be honest and have hard conversations and write and sing and speak it, so i'm learning to see this as a scarey moment but also an opportunity for growth because growth is always scary, really. and, so, that's where i'm at. and i do sometimes -- i have been feeling a little bit unsafe, but more than anything i'm feeling expanded. >> trevor: can i one thing to you before we go based on that? here's a truth that, like, one of my truths is this -- i think one of the biggest reasons people are so violently against calling a thing what it is or seeing a thing for what it may be or even acknowledging something in themselves is that we haven't developed a framework in society to not allow people to be that thing. so if you live in a world where you are a racist, a sexist, a my

songist, a xenophobe, whatever it may be, a, even if you were brought up that way or grew up in a community, whatever, does society give you the option to not be that anymore and adopt a different label? if society doesn't 'do that, then people will violently refuse acknowledging any of these things because then they know that that means they are forever condemned to being kicked out of society, you know, and it's funny, i was talking to friends in south africa the other day about the harshest punishment and we talked about how africans used to deal with punishment and one of the worst things that could happen to you in a south african tribe, you know, before colonization, even, was if they really felt that you could not be reasoned with in the tribe, you would be told to leave. that was your punishment. you wouldn't be put in a cage, you would be kicked out of society, which is the complete opposite of what people do today and it's because they knew that that was one to have the greatest punishment that you

could impose on another human is not let them be a part of. so i think honestly, until america gets to a place where it can decide, and not just america, many places in the world, until america can get to a place where it can go, okay, you did this, you were this, but now there's a time, there's a way, there's some path that you can take towards reconciliation, unless you do that, you will never have an honest conversation ever because people will dig in their heels and say, i can not afford to be labeled racist in any way, shape or form because that means i get kicked out of society and, so, i would rather deny the fact right in front of me, i would rather not tell the truth because the truth won't settle you free but will do the complete opposite. >> it's easier to lie to yourself. >> trevor: yeah. >> what i would love to see joe rogan do is especially have some of our black female thinkers

around race to have those messy conversations on his show. that's what i want to see. is there a way out? education is a way out. not that anybody's going to see him different because we don't know how to love each other, really, but maybe it would matter. maybe it would matter. >> trevor: messy conversations. india arie, i could talk to you forever. thank you for taking the time. thank you for being vulnerable with me and sharing the space and i hope to see you again. >> thank you, too. >> trevor: all right, my friend, bye. >> bye. yep, it's go time on the most reliable network. you get unlimited for just $30 bucks. nice! but mine has 5g included. yep, even these guys get it. and the icing on the cake?

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community garden, food pantries, free covid and hiv/aids testing and more. to support them in their work, please donate to the link below. until tomorrow, stay safe out there, get your vaccine and please stop sending india arie death threats. here it is, your moment of zen. [♪♪] [elevator dings] george, why couldn't i use the bathroom in that store? kramer, trust me, this is the best bathroom in midtown. -[whimpers] -he knows. it's right in there, on the left. exquisite marble, high ceilings, and a flush like a jet engine.

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kramer: whew! this damn thing is jammed again! you know what happens with these? the rollers, they get flat spots on 'em. -[beeping] -huh? hey, leland wants everyone in the conference room right now. come on, let's go. okay. yeah. okay.

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