>> this is on fan accused of good by 20th-century among very favorably reviewed in hardcover and we brought up the paperback edition that. >> wasn't about? >> the band and the whole grunge music movement. >> lisa warren is vice president of a de capo press. >> up next, author bill ayers, distinguished professor of education as you university scholar at the university of illinois at chicago joins booktv for an in-depth interview from the printer's row of little vest in chicago. >> bill ayers, in your book "to teach" you talk about teachers having a world choice. what is that moral choice? >> i think that teaching is profound ethical work in the moral choice is to choose to take the side of the students, to choose to see them as three-dimensional creatures with hearts and minds and spirits, that somehow have to be both martian challenged and to see

yourself as something which is in the position of shepherding the choices of others and that gives you a very profound i think ethically responsibility so part of it is to see the students whole, to see them as human beings not as interchangeable cog in a machine, that is infinitely manipulable but see them as human beings much like yourself and to open your eyes to that. >> is individuals? >> and as members of the committee both and that is one of the tensions of teaching is your teaching third grade and have 25 kids and you have a responsibility to see each one as the one and only in duplicable. no one else will average of the earth quite this way and that is essential. on the other hand, there are members of the committee and have to figure out how to help them learn to live together so it is both. >> throughout you're own books on teaching and been educators, social justice seems to be a theme throughout all those

books, in fact, one is called teaching for social justice. what's your name? >> it is taken on the town of something special for some kind of an ad on but what i mean is a very simple wishes that teaching in a democracy released their radically is teaching quite a different approach to teaching that teaching in any kind of authoritarian or autocratic system whenever they teach in a fascist germany or soviet russia where medieval saudi arabia or apartheid south africa and those systems incidentally all wanted their kids to stay away from drugs and crime, we're in the subject matter, all those kinds of things which we want as well that there is something distinctly different about teaching in a democracy and the differences social justice so one way to put it is what ever else did they teach in those systems and they teach obedience in conformity as number one hit in curriculum and what ever else

we teach we should be teaching the democratic ideal that each human being is precious, in duplicable, to be treated in which i respect and with profound human-rights so we start from a different angle and whenever hill we teach we want to teach courage, imagination, creativity, and entrepreneurship and things like that. >> is there any case in your view in a democracy where teaching should include conformity and discipline? >> of course, we have to be disciplined to learn to live together, that requires a kind of discipline. the question is where does the discipline come from and how it's structured and organized? if you create a classroom which is absolute chaos or a school that is chaos nobody has an opportunity to learn of all but it does your fundamental values in your classroom is one of the things we're going to be doing

here is respecting each individual and learning to live together, that means again and again you have teachable moments. have a moment or somebody makes a cool comment a moment or some editors of someone else's work in a moment when somebody makes a racial slur. these are teachable moments, moments when a used the occasion of whatever has happened to open a conversation about what is fair and just and democratic. that is the distinction i make between teaching in a democracy in teaching in apartheid south africa. >> in the "to teach" rewrite the standardized tests should come with printed warnings, use of these materials may be hazardous to your intelligence or the life chances of half of those taking these tests will be narrowed. >> i did write that. >> y? >> i apologize. no, kidding.

[laughter] because i think status test and i wrote that 10 of 15 years ago and frankly it has gone so much worse than it is time to believe that the will be given has reduce education which is always about opening doors and opening mines and possibilities, opening new missions in new horizons, we have reduced to match to the taking of a single conative task that is culturally biased, that narrows the correct them and we have gone to a point after eight years of falling this regimen pretty viciously, we have gone to a point where it is only -- the only kids to have access to music, sports and debate in the arts and science are kids who either live and privilege suburbs are going to private schools, kids in the city are increasingly being denied that opportunity and that's the result of a singular obsession with a silly standardize test. so the question i asked about senate nice test in the book and ask all my life is said teacher, who benefits, who doesn't benefit, the province and doesn't, and frankly i think the

standardized tests are a mistake and there are a mistake because of our obsession with them and are redefining of them. they do not represent intelligence, they do not represent achievement, they represent something about something is quite narrow. >> could you give it an example, bill ayers, of which you may have a cultural bias? >> when my kids are young, i have a couple of granddaughter's now, but one of my kids are young and remember a seven -- test my oldest son took and there was a pitcher, i think it was first grain, he was very young and there was a pitcher of people sitting on a porch and is said, the people are sitting on the -- and then i have three choices one of which was a porch. now, the kids i was teaching at the time had never seen a porch, never heard of a porch, never had encountered one in their own reading in the store is they have been read, so how are they to answer that?

now, of course, i grew up with a porch so i might be able to answer that quite easily. what if we gave a test to kids in central iowa where we do a set of rectangular boxes and we said the people are living in them and gives rejoices, one of which is projects -- but when we get right and why wouldn't they because it is a cultural thing so it's not about intelligence, not about ability to that's about experience and cultural background so again and again what we are testing for in this is the shame of it and shannon somehow there's not be spoken with the same of standardized tests is that all they tell us is what we already know. the clearest indicator of how you will do on any standardized test is how you did on the first one you ever took, the clearest indicator of how you'll do on the first one is in the educational level an income of your parents. that's a pretty horrible statement for an educator to swallow because i don't want to say to my kids, lineup, how much

do your parents may? you stand over there. half-hearted your parents go in school, you stand over there. i want to believe i can make a difference in the life experiences and opportunities of kids but i can to and if i'm obsessing everyday and it my job depends on my kids course on this test. >> well, bill ayers is our guest on in death this month and we're going to put the phone lines up on the screen if you want to participate in our conversation. we are live in chicago at the corner of south state street and congress and just south of the loop in downtown chicago and this is the chicago tribune's printer's row literature fest that is going on this weekend and also have a studio audience here and joining us at the university center where we are doing our live in depth. (202)737-0001, if you lived in the east and central time zones, (202)737-0002 for those of you in the mountains and pacific time zones and we will begin taking your calls in just a few

minutes but first we want to look as some of the mr. ayers books on education. "teaching toward freedom" is one of his books, another one is called the zero tolerance: resisting the driver punishment in our schools, we have a "teaching the personal and the political", essays on hope and justice, city kids in city schools -- these are books and edited by mr. ayers with several different contributors in this. this is city kids and city teachers, reports from the front row and the city kids and city schools, more reports on the front row. these are just some of his education books and we will get into some of his other books also as we go. this is "to teach" which also contains the myth of education -- what are some of the myths of education? in an era that 15 years ago and you're asking me to remember? [laughter] when i wrote the book i was taken with the attack that when

you go to college is education and when you become a teacher you get kind of surrounded with the smiths and some of them are things like kids today are dividend kids ever were in the world feared that these of the time was kids, the worst it's a test that has been said by every generation ever. and now that i am old i feel myself wanting to save about young people today, it is just not true -- kids are kids, kids experiment, kids try things and do things so one myth is kids in there given than ever before. another myth is that i remember writing is teaching should be fine. you know, i argued a to be deeply satisfying and candy enormously rewarding, but the idea that a teacher should be fun seems to me a little bit like you have put on a clown costume and dance around, that doesn't strike me as particularly correct. you know, one of the myths that i am very concerned about is what i call the myth of the third grade and that is the idea that the way i often think about it is every fourth grade teacher

in the chicago public schools besides being angry at the kids in appearance is angry at food -- they are angry at the third grade teacher because they're not ready and every high school teacher is angry at every elementary school as a professor, i am angry and everybody because the kids are ready. [laughter] of course, it is absurd but it is because we have this notion that there is this kind of someplace on not olympus, the ideal third grader who does everything just right. it is not true, third graders are various -- i have known kids in canada and who can read and others who are still winning their pants and some actually winning their pants and reading. [laughter] so it is like this idea that somehow there is a standard we should live up to and is only into that made from k-12 and after that we are a mess. i am 65 and a range of one means to be a normal 65 year old is huge, it is not narrow. so the idea that somehow a third grader should fit, i argue that third graders are various and

have to learn to teach with a variety that comes into your classroom. >> sol astern and "the wall street journal" last october ruled that mr. ayers is not in school reformer, he is a school destroyer, he still hopes for revolutionary upheaval that will finally bring down american capitalism and imperialism but this time around mr. ayers sows the seeds of resistance and rebellion in america's future teachers. >> wow, that is pretty heavy. you know, i know not what he means by this time around, i have always -- i've been a teacher since 1965 so it is a long time and i have always thought that teaching is at its best is geared toward as a democracy and social justice and i also think that progress of education and i consider myself of progressive educator sans as it ought to against the status quo because the status quo is unacceptable. the city of chicago we still have close to a 50 percent

dropout rate, that is unacceptable and that is a system we need to change. in the quote you read i think it is also true that the schools and to serve social system and that is why -- when i talk to him as ago i said so in school served at the soviet system, fascist's schools serve the vashon system, and at least theoretically we want a more perfect democracy and therefore we want more democratic schools. >> on your website bill ayers.org if you are not a fan of army duncan, the secretary of education and you write he is a building superintendent of schools. >> i wrote a piece for the huffington post and actually i like duncan very much. when i said the line you are quoting is -- it says that it was almost inevitable that the new president would choose from and then you quoted me correctly, from one of the four failed urban superintendents and

what i meant by that is bad michelle three in washington d.c., joel klein in a york, paul allyson orleans and army duncan in chicago, none of those four superintends have actually shown that they can actually make the system work. what they have got is tremendous public relations, so i go on in that piece to talk for example about the show reed who is in the most ideological before, duncan is probably the most practical and pragmatic of the four and probably of those for the best choice that obama could have made, but i describe it cover story in time magazine work michele is featured on the cover. i know if you know her but she is a 39 year-old superintendent and she has a -- the pitcher on the cover she is caring a broom and most remain ennises, how to fix america's schools rated the pivotal paragraph in the time magazine stories as this in

total: michelle has done more to reform the washington d.c. schools in a. a half and those reformers can do in five years. she has closed 29 schools, fined 139 teachers, fred 39 principals, fired 200 of essential staff. not a word in that paragraph about bringing resources into the starting system, not a word about turning around dropouts, not a word about connecting the schools to the committee, not a word about supporting the stability of teachers, and the reason i say they are veiled is time magazine calls that reform because those are all proxy is for reform if you buy the idea that schooling is a business. i know by that idea, not in a democracy. in a democracy schooling is a right and a journey, it is a human rights so that's the argument i have and it's not meant to be put down of duncan at all, i wish him well in max bill ayers, how did you become a teacher? >> i became a teacher in 1965, i

had been arrested in a -- weird i know -- but is true. [laughter] i was a rested in a city in indiana harbor, michigan and i went to jail and in the jail i meant a man who had also sat in a the draft board and remember this is right in the beginning of the war when the war was quite popular in the u.s.. but we thought that we had to stand up and object and we did. i met a man whose wife had just found a preschool affiliated with the solarize movement so i walked out of jail into my first teaching job and in an odd way for me because of that experience school in teaching has always been willing to to the quest for a better world, a world of peace, justice and balance and stability. >> and this was a preschool? >> i went to this preschool which added a great. got up to first ascent. >> how many students and where was it?

>> ann arbor michigan in the basement and a friend center, a quaker meeting hall and i think we have and maybe 35 or 40 kids. >> you do not have a degree at the time? >> no, i was 20 years old. >> and it was this an accredited school? >> yes we had one certified teacher and it was, indeed, in a credit is school. >> what was your education mike? >> i grew up in the western suburbs of chicago, went to suburban good schools, went to glen per request high-school and then in my junior year went to lake forest academy so i went to a residential prep school and from there to the university of michigan. >> how did you end up like force academy? >> i read about it in one of my books i jokingly referred to lake forest academy as a kind of a reform school with kids of privilege. it is not literally chew.

i was disenchanted with school as a lot of 16 year-old farmer. i was disconnected from school, i often had got away from college and i saw no purpose going to school so my father thought that was a bad choice and looked around for some alternatives. he had the means to take an alternative. >> were you a child of privilege? it back very much so. my father was the chairman of commonwealth which was an electric monopoly, i don't know what is called but i still get bills from them. [laughter] and osher with the name of it is. >> had to go from being the son of the chairman of commonwealth edison to a fugitive? >> just lucky i think. [laughter] well, you know, it was a peculiar time in american history and i do and try to feel lucky to have gone up at a time when innocence my future was mapped out. it my path was laid out before me and it was 1963 when i

graduated high school, i went to michigan and got caught up in the civil rights movement which was actually even in prep school interestingly spit of the power of books, james baldwin penetrated lake forest academy and hooked me. two this day and have a special affection for james baldwin because he awakened me in a way that i didn't, when you are awake and not aware of which are about to be awakened to, but james paul one brought the civil rights movement into my privileged, padded, all white, all male prep school and i was very taken with james baldwin. i went to michigan, got involved in the civil-rights movement there supported the students' coordinating committee and then the war began. the were block and i found myself drawn into the anti-war protests, and did not know much, but instinctively and intuitively i felt there was something wrong with the united states going 10,000 miles away

to pick up the failed french colonial mission and the risk and a fall from that. >> who was or is ruth stein? >> in the "fugitive days" issue is a moment -- you was a woman who was an older radical who really love to learn from. she passed away many years ago. i do remember in what context i bring her up in action was the artist at the university of michigan with from my reading of a "fugitive days" statute involved in anti workmen. >> yes, because i changed the names because i rode it 10 years ago. in she was someone who is from new york and a lot more sophisticated than i was. i had quit school and joined the merchant marines when i was 19 and when i came from a stint in the merchant marines i went back to the campus. every connected with her and she

took me to my first anti-war meeting. >> in my reading until may and this is where, bill ayers, in my reading of "fugitive days", it seems as if he drifted into the anti-war movement. is that a fair statement? >> you know, in some sense, i think that all life is the kind of combination of choice in chance. i don't think that any of us can look back and say with any clarity i made this a deliberate choice and then that the liberal choice. the worst choice you didn't make was with her parents, your cast into making that but take my life -- i was cast into the world in a world of privilege and so on. i was cast into a world of nuclear weapons, i didn't have any choice about that, but i did have a choice was i awaken to the lack of deciding whether i would be a person who oppose nuclear weapons and the age of about 18i have been a vocal opponent of nuclear weapons so

that is for choice comes in, but the chance is very important so to say i drifted -- yes i did and then i made choices and i drafted and may joyces. some people argue that our president drifted into the presidency but he made some choices. >> we are in chicago and this is our in-depth program and i will tell the studio audience to view of like to ask a question, if three or four would like to get lined up we will begin taking calls and questions right now. the microphone is over here. we will get to you all as we take calls and e-mail's that came in during the last week. we cannot take new e-mail's because we are remote in chicago but we do have some that came in the last week that will add in the program, our first call comes from palo alto, california from a caller who is identifying him or herself as queue. please go ahead. >> caller: thank you for taking my call. thank you mr. ayers for opening this form up. i have nothing but the greatest

respect and appreciation for the sacrifices you have made. i wanted two also -- i am a retired special operations disabled veteran who was poisoned in iraq did to uranium shells and i have grown at billy disenfranchise with the government especially the government line to us that still denying my medical condition was related to my combat service but nonetheless i wanted to ask you how you felt about the way in which the media paid you especially fox news which seems to have a very significant impact on the public perception with regard to how we cast, in terms of the type of light that is cast upon the particular person or event that was covering and i was wondering if

you have any particular views at all or experience with how this news operation operates and how that has affected your life? thank you can i thank you. i try very hard to kind of ignore what is said and cox news and particular but any kind of media and i would be suspicious that there is such a thing as either the public mind or a public perception. i think we are all capable of having mines of marone and i know it seems sometimes like we're all i heard going a certain direction but then you look around and say it is also true. for example for the first three years of this illegal and unnecessary war and iraq it seemed like the whole country was for it, it seemed that way. if you listen two any media outlet it turns out three years in and the majority of americans opposed it so somehow we have minds of our own in spite of public perception or the voices on the media.

but you know, the problem that you are raising about how i was kind of created into a cartoon character during the recent presidential campaign, i didn't -- i never took it personally and i felt there was a sense that nobody knew how to run against this new young brash candidate, nobody knew what script to put together. and the dishonest narrative that was created first by the opposition within the democratic party and then by the republican party, the dishonest narrative was he is a mystery man and nobody knows who he is and look, he hangs around with strange people. dishonesty of that was partly to create for example in the rev. right to is a respected import chicago theologian and later, to create the idea that he was somehow a monstrous fiery frightening black nationalist revolutionary. it wasn't true but that was what was tried to be created, but the second part of this is more

profound and that is the notion of guilt by association. the idea that somehow if you share a board room or a bus ride or a cup of coffee that you also share a political perspective, policy outlook, history and experience, you're responsible for one another and should be no political litmus test for a politician having a conversation with somebody. one of the great virtues of candidate obama was he would talk to anybody and he still had a mine of his own so the idea that talking to strangers are talking to others is somehow a san i think was rejected by the electorate and i'm glad of that. >> bill ayers, i have an e-mail from lawrence. as a former member of the weather underground how would you advise the obama administration to deal with the problem of global terrorism? are there any lessons to be learned from america's sixties experience in this regard? >> i don't think alibi's the obama administration on much of anything but certainly i think

that one of the things that is true it is that there is a world that is profoundly out of balance. and a world that is filled with violence and fear in all the rest of it. the problem is that we have treated in the public mind as opposed are in the noisy voices that dominate the discussion after 9/11. the notion that there is such a thing as a model thing called terror that you can kind of deal with by declaring war on it and that has led us down so many false pence in the last eight years it is frightening and we are more at risk today than we were eight years ago precisely because of those policies so my advice is two all of us and really isn't to the obama administration partly because i believe that what matters most is creating the kind of popular will of the social movements, that is what changes history but my advice to all of us is to

wake up, open our eyes and recognize that having a trillion dollars military budget doesn't actually make a saver. learning to live as a nation among nations makes us safer and then, of course, we have to deal with crime, have to do with violence a chorus but not as an act of war, as an act of sanity. >> mary in kalamazoo, michigan, you're on with professor and author bill ayers. >> hi, quickly before i ask my question, mr. ayers, giving your statement you made, how can you still not regret to the slaughter of innocent americans that yourself, your wife and the weather underground perpetuated? you have children or fan, mr. ayers. i am a white liberal democrat and group in the '60s and was very idealistic. quite honestly reforms in education that we have seen come from the left in the '60s have decimated education, literacy

rates have skyrocketed, the jaw about rates have skyrocketed, as a result because we are no longer providing children with a classical education coming individual help when they needed, and free and honest discourse. i have seen education and become extremely ideological. we are not allowed to think for ourselves. in fact, we are attacked and censored when we dare deviate from the status quo of the far left, especially in higher education in. this is sensitive to me as someone who cares about social justice, rights and freedoms. i will hang up and listen. >> i am not sure where to begin except to say that what ever you are referencing about the slaughter of innocents and killing people is not true. i never killed or injured anyone. it is part of the narrative of the far right blogosphere as far as i can tel b