one was in the safety of the community so we pay them very well and that result was we had a very limited problems because of that. because they did not have to worry about their family and taking care of them, so i want to disagree with you on that and ask the simple question and and taking it as the chairman has talked about, at 22 or 23,000 unburied in alaska small planes regionals, we have some great regionals and alaska from the ones that operate currently there. but the pay seems to me an important factor in creating quality so the quality of a pilot does not literally fly to the majors two keep them for long term careers. do you honestly think and i am going off the pilots association because they get a paycheck, that 22 or 20,000 is adequate for us to have people flying

planes i don't care if it is one person or 20 people or 50 people? >> two points to that, senator, that the pay virtually every one of our member airlines, all but one is collectively bargain. >> that's not my question. began as a former mayor i doubt that all the time it -- is it the right kind of pay to have and should we require minimums that are guaranteed pay levels for pilots and regional planes? this is a question i asked last week to focus. can i senator, we believe that the industry again is very complex issue. we believe fundamentally that the quality of the people that we have plying is good. we would like to do even better and that is one of the reasons why we have strongly supported a number of the issues that would have been discussed today to get

better training, to get better -- there is an investment here to do. it is interesting at this committee which is responsible for so much into the next generation of technology and spending billions of dollars that we believe that there can be some money spent on the human capital in our aviation safety system. it was strongly support that. >> i have run at a time so let me ask if i can to both of you i guess, to you and also capt. prater if you want to answer very quickly, it's a simple question and that is the whole issue of a down time and in faa's it minimums that they currently have. i know you to mention a minimum standard requirements for pilots -- reducing the minimums are too low? the minimum standards of faa for pilots for down time as well as other training and other issues?

do you think there are too low and to be raised up? mr. may? >> certainly, i need you're are talking about fighting in due time. >> yes. >> i think there probably are appropriate one. two, we made a commitment at the faa's call to action on monday to enter into a science based his study to determine whether or not they are currently a appropriate or not. there has been a recent proceeding on all along flying that the faa has done, it was science based. a plenty of skilled people available to do that. i think we probably ought to incorporate the chairman has raised this issue of commuting. i think we ought to incorporate that into the process and so we would strongly endorsed a process being established by faa to look at flight duty time

current standards. how they might divert for regional and samples with lots of takeoffs and and when these verses long haul -- all that needs to be put on the table. >> my time is definitely up so if you can be quick on that response. >> i totally agree with mr. may. >> there has been in a study and are ready to move forward with it. we do believe there is enough scions on the record. we are going to make recommendations directly to the faa and work with the associations to move the process forward to beckon a share that with the committee? >> of course, can i senator klobuchar. >> thank you mr. chairman for having this hearing. the tragedy of the colgan air flight brought this into the public eye and i can tell you for the senator has his personal story and for me it was eerily reminiscent of the crash of paul wellstone is plain. as he knows the senator from minnesota law that was a private plan, the issues were eyes, the issues were pilot training and

the issues were fatigue. so when i hear all of this from our hearing last week of under paid pilots, pilots that are tired, and pilots that are turning and of money it reminds me very much of that. in addition to that here you have a factor of pilots living far from their base is leading to long commutes and a lot of time spent waiting in the airports. i know there have been some questions about 58, but i have a question about the reimbursement for hotel rooms in the evenings. i know that some of the larger airlines pay for hotel, so that the pilots in its sleep before ships. and regional carriers, are they doing the same thing? can i senator klobuchar, when pilots are on duty the minute they check-in, all of their hotel costs on duty are paid for 100 percent by the company. they are also receiving a per

diem travel at the same airline and regional. there is no distinction between the way those policies are done between major airlines and the regional airline's. >> anyone else have something to add on that? >> i would say there is a fair amount of difference but i think for you are going is the pilot getting adequate rest and a place to get that adequate rest before they began their first trip out of whenever domiciled they have been assigned two any answer quite simply is no, there are now provided by the airline's. >> because of that is -- what they do is they fly to start their first trip from somewhere and there may not be a way for them to get reimbursed for the hotel then because it is not a between fis? >> abstract. >> was that the case here, with the colgan air applied? because i know she was spending the day in the airport two. >> i seriously doubt whether there was, in fact, it was -- i can say without a doubt they were not given a place to get

adequate rest were provided that four or compensated for a hotel room. and so that they could get adequate rest. >> okay, we heard last week their original colors are more likely to become tired and fatigued by flying because they are flying more flights per day rather than one long flight and am sure that could happen with major carriers. in other words, they are doing more takeoffs and landings in one day and maybe actually more prone to fatigued. did you think that is true? anyone want to take that on the kitimat having spent more time to take than anyone else up here at the panel i can say there's a lot of different ways of lowering your readiness level if you will. the fatigue of assisting our fight is different but just as important as a pilot to is flying seven legs, seven different landings and takeoffs and in the middle of the winter weather or summer weather. it is different but it all adds

to the same place, then a tired or fatigue the pilot is not at the peak of his or her performance. >> the issue of fatigue is a very serious one and why we are, it is right at the top of our strategic safety initiative. including the exploration, this is a lot of science out there on fatigue. and the possibility of exploring fatigue testing. let's start gathering the data, let's start testing people for fatigue. we have the ability to do that now, but we don't currently and we would strongly urge it to him that well, i think that we know. i have read enough sleep studies to know that as people don't have enough sleep and i am not at all disputing that testing is good and find more details about long fight in short flies is good, but the bottom line is if they don't have enough sleep because they are sitting in an airport and haven't slept because they are not having enough money to pay for a hotel

room i think you're going to have problems so i was glad that administrative babbitt this past monday said he would propose a new role of private -- pilot rest requirement which would be helpful. i wanted to talk briefly about the deicing issues because that was clearly an issue here. i think was at the first officer told the pilot in this crash, i have never seen icing conditions, i have never deiced, i have never experienced any of that. and this was clearly a factor in the crash. our regional aircraft more susceptible to problems associated with icing as some of the larger aircraft blacks because of where they are flying are what levels they are flying? any thoughts on that? in and certainly some of the airplanes that fly in the lower levels. if you will serve as 21,820,000 feet are more likely to pick up and spent a lot of time at that altitude and pick up more ice. certain props are more susceptible even though i

believe that most of them are more than adequate to handle those conditions. but you can't say in it forever and the fact that the first officer -- this will sound strange but there has been such a focus on some a sterile cockpit violations. i am relieved that we know that that first officer in that airplane said i have never seen icing like this before because we have all learned something, that is just as apparent as whether the cpr we have learned something. she felt she was not prepared to. >> what you are saying is you can have violations and things go wrong but that she said this is such an indication of that there are problems in training that you don't need anything more than that? >> at plus sharing information between pilots, knowing what is going on. we talk regularly so that we know you know what i am thinking. you have to voice some of the things going on in your head so

that you're first officer or captain knows what you are doing or planning to do. that is not a violation of sterile cockpit -- that actually leads us to knowing what is going on between the two and a dynamic. >> what do think could be done to train our original pilots efficiently on how to fly in icy conditions? anyone want to take that? >> senator, we are strongly supportive. the training programs that are airlines are very robust. we are working with the faa, our main line partners, our employees to address and make them as robust as they possibly can be. or training is always good. >> mr. maurer. >> i guess what i would comment on it is we learned in the ntsb hearings that there is a software available to take inexperienced pilots and put them with experienced pilots so a mentoring program of some sort

where you got an experienced pilot who has flown in ice, who has seen it and understands it, knows what to do. put an inexperienced pilot with that and perhaps we might have a better outcome. i mean, that is a hands-on way of learning about these things. there is always so much that can be done in a simulator, let's face it. >> i would think i sing it would be harder condition to simulate. maybe i am not even about that but it would be. >> along that line i want to make one other comment. the regional airlines typically are flying less than to our type flights etc.. you mentioned it, more takeoffs and landings. as i have interviewed and talk to pilots this is a critical time of flight taking off and landing. where then should we have the best skill? and i am not try to take anything away from the majors,

but should we not have the best pilots, the most skilled pilots flying in these short trips? particularly if you are flying in these altitudes more susceptible to icing which two that is another issue that pilots don't like to fly in a but they have two. >> thank you very much. >> senator mccaskill. >> thank you mr. chairman. i like to talk a little about maintenance. and i have worked on this issue since i came to the senate on foreign repair stations and i am sure you all are aware that the ig has determined the that regional carriers are depending on outsourcing maintenance to a large extent and my question to you, mr. cohen, is how much of a allosaurs maintenance. i believe that the ig said 50 percent of the maintenance is being outsourced. what percentage of that outsourced maintenance work is going to faa certified repair stations? >> i'm glad to ask that because

it's a good opportunity to clarify some things in the ig report that i think the hearing in the other body didn't quite get straight. first of all, 100 percent of all the maintenance is being done in a faa certified maintenance operation. otherwise it would not be allowed to fly. number two, i think that there is, if i can clarify what the idps study is, actually the regional airline's outsource less of it overseas than even in the mainline carriers do. virtually all of the maintenance by the regional airline members is done here at this country either by themself on their own to a faa certified maintenance operation in the united states

including our manufacturers which have locations in the united states in miami, tennessee and west virginia. so i hope that may be a walk long way of answering your question -- >> i'm interested in which to sell because i am sure you are aware that it is perfectly acceptable to the faa for the repair work to be done in on certified stations. i mean, you are aware of that, right? you are maintaining today that all of the maintenance work is being done because this is one of the problems we have right now is that a repair station does not have to be certified by the faa in order for it to be utilized by either the commercial carriers or the regional carriers. are you aware of that? >> senator, again it is my understanding on the maintenance that and having the maintenance that we are talking about, the

heavy maintenance checks that c and d checks are conducted in what i am assuming are faa certified -- >> if you reject that because i think i would be surprised if that were a fact. we've done a fair amount of work on this issue and there are a large number of not just kick the tires, but serious and substantial maintenance and repair work that is being done by non certified and repair stations. both foreign and domestic. in and so i would certainly appreciate you following up on that because one of the issues, of course, is why do we have certified repair stations if people aren't required to use them? and that is, in fact, what the legislation that senator specter and i have introduced would require you to use the certified repair stations. as i said to faa a couple of

different times in this room, i assume the getting was certified as a good thing. if it is a good thing why aren't we require people to use them and if it is not a good thing why are we spending taxpayer money supporting them? it does not make sense to me use a good old-fashioned common sense that we would go to a certification process and not require it so if you would get back to me i would appreciate because the faa does not have good data on this. they admit they do not know how much of the maintenance is being done a certified nurse is not certified in. >> we will get to the information. >> mr. may, same question for national carriers. can you give a figure as to what percentage is being done a certified nurse is not certified repair stations? >> i do not have that number at hand weapon be happy to provided. >> and while you are added to the mr. cohen represented that

none of this is being outsourced beyond the u.s. in terms of regional carriers. i am confident it is being outsourced be on the u.s. for the large commercial carriers. and as your association have a number of what percentage of that maintenance is beingç outsourced? >> i'm sure we have the answer to that, i don't happen to have it with me. >> if you have it that would be terrific. it has been a very difficult -- to the information is difficult to come by from the faa in. i have not -- i don't think prior to rise looking at this issue and i don't think the american flying public realizes to what extent maintenance has been outsourced in an effort to cut costs and one of the problems is in many of these places there's not even alcohol and drug testing. it seems weird to me that we have a domestic certify the repair stations and because we

don't have as many of them anymore because some of our outsourced, there are faa inspectors that hang out there that are really looking over the shoulder and then you travel to indonesia and if there is ever faa inspectors that show up, by the way the u.s. pays for that, the taxpayers pay the cost of the faa inspectors to go look at foreign repair stations, not the airlines, so the taxpayers are underwriting this outsourcing. they are even doing drug and alcohol tests and as we talked about in this hearing before there are actually locations that have been on the state department's watch list for terrorist activity or there have been repair stations utilized. so if you would get back to us with what ever information your association have on this information will be helpful as we move toward getting the support reforms done in the area of maintenance and repair. thank you mr. chairman.

>> senator mccaskill, thank you. we will attempt to get more information. i'm well familiar with the issue of the inspections and repair stations. we have, in fact, have been about one of the carriers that fly is an empty airbus to el salvador to prepare and then flies in md 320 back to the united states after having had it repaired in el salvador or inspected or maintain it. my guess is that is probably another issue of dollars and cents. let me go back to just a moment ago on icing. i just pull the transcript again of his co-pilot to saying i have never seen icing conditions, never deiced. i have never experienced any of that, i don't want to have to experience that and those calls. i freaked out. i have not seen this and that we're going to crash. the actual transcript is of a copeland that appears to me to

have had a minimum training in icing conditions. in now, the reason i mention this is because the training issue has been on the table. what kind of training to some have in that cockpit to find the conditions into which that airplane is headed? if they are flying to buffalo, new york in the winter one would expect you would encounter icing conditions of some sort. i come from the state of north dakota. i learned to fly many years ago and i have been on airplanes, small airplanes with a lot of build up on the wings, watching with flashlights. i have flown in a lot of i sing with pilots and with others. so i think it is an important question -- how much training exists before someone is put in a cockpit for this specific kind of conditions likely to encounter? i want to ask about this issue of the time in an airplane

because i think that is also important. in the buffalo crash we were told that that carrier had had a training, they train their pilots on the stick shaker but not the stick pusher and so if that is the case i guess the first question in mind is if you're in a cockpit with a device called a stick pusher which is going to be a device that is going to automatically move you toward a some sort of that safety function in that fight, and have never had experience with it or not been trained in it, is that a significant efficiency and how could that happen? capt. prater, can you tell us? >> first of all, every airplane has different characteristics and different safety features and pilots should be trained to the proficiency in each and every one of those. i cannot testify to words of the

conditions on the training of this individual airmen or crew, but i can say more generally is that there is a huge cost to training air men and so it does come down $2 and cents. i have severe concerns that the regional industry who looks at their pilots as if you will part-time help, training help, it may not want to spend as much money making sure they are aware of each and every facet. training has been shortened over my three decades as an airline pilot. i think we need to look at it very seriously and say, have we reduced it to below what should be the standards? >> mr. cohen. >> mr. chairman, in defense of the training programs are regional airlines is that the committee was provided with a very detailed information about the training programs which are every bit as robust. one of the things we talked about at monday's call to action

was to look at all of these type of training issues that have been laid on the table. certainly today and over the last several weeks and to look at whether it is environmental, additional training and environmental, additional training on whenever, and that in all my years in the airline industry and i have been in it since 1971, i have never seen ever seen a decision by any airline regarding safety that would jeopardize safety because of cost. i just want to lay that out. >> mr. cohen, the senator was making the point and a perfect -- prickly reasonable point if we are flying through difficult economic conditions and regional carriers are smaller companies have substantial difficulty, isn't it likely that you have substantially less experience in that airplane?

paying lower salaries and so on. does that have an impact on the capability of that airplane to fly through difficult circumstances? >> look, the airline industry has created for the most part in this country to difference systems. one is a hub and spoke system and the other is why between city and low-cost carriers. in the hub and spoke system in the old days a northwest airlines which served in my state would fly is a jet carriers into that city, one of four cities in north dakota, with 727 and a pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer, and i assume that the pilots had been on those routes probably pilots with less time in the company then something that had been on a san francisco to every -- route. and so i understand the longer routes and the the bigger planes and so on are going to get the

pilots more experienced but it seems to me the way this hub and spoke system has more to is that the network carriers have decided, you know what, we will move a lot of these folks off onto a commuter carrier and a commuter carrier is going to be out there with smaller planes in most cases. it is going to cost us less although they are going to wear our name on the fuselages, but it is going to cost us a lot less because frankly it can be a carrier that we have perhaps 100% ownership of our system -- substantial ownership of the same contracts. so it'll have pilots with less experience they can hire for entry-level of $18,000 a year. it seems to me just inevitably this you do have it then again without demeaning a pilot or the pilot's ability, you do have the potential of a separate standard of capability. i'm not talking about training

and safety minimum, i am talking about capability there and in and so the major question we started with today is the faa said in the mid-1990s one standard and passengers again on an airplane when they walked to that airplane door should expect the same standard on the cockpit of a commuter carrier or a network carrier. i think mr. prater said he believes the enforcement of the standard is not as rigorous as passengers would expect or as we would expect. mr. may, what is your impression of that? >> mr. chairman, we all adhere to 4121 which is the single standard established in 1995. i think that the reality is that mainline carriers more regularly far exceeded that standard in in 121 than our regional partners

do. we have with virtually no exceptions of local programs, asap programs, more robust training etc., and as part of the recommendations that we have made before you today and in the house last week and the faa, we would suggest that many of those programs be instituted at the regional level for our partners. >> but let me ask, the fact is is your name, that is the name of your company said to represent on the fuselages of these airplanes. >> that's, correct. >> and in many cases you own the regional carrier our own substantial portions of the regional carrier. and so it would seem to me that it would be in the interest of the network carriers to require the things you have recommended today prior two these recommendations. >> i understand that's thought, senator.

there was actually a proposal made by ntsb back in about 1994 when this whole debate came to pass in the 121 created put in the regionals under 121 to have the mainline carriers be the enforcement of 121 for their original partners. and that was specifically rejected by congress and in this faa because they wanted to have a single level of enforcement as well as a single level of achievement and i think that the decision was of a correct one and at the time and i think it remains correct that the faa is to be the principal enforcer. we have openly said here today and will continue to say, if we need to change to those standards and upgrade them then that is something that we ought to look at doing. by the same