a dirty word it's one i'm going to keep saying because i think it's the only way out of that region. i think for me the bigger concern these days is the speed with which the insurgents are moving across pakistan, which i do see as a country at tremendous risk for splitting up into different parts. there's an old state department joke that, you know, because the pakistanis all believed that secretly washington's plan is to split it up into four different countries, and the state department joke is that with one pakistan gives us this much trouble, and imagine what we will get from for pakistan's. [laughter] . .

>> i am just wondering what the involvement of the pakistani government will there be trials and to them as well? >> that is another aspect of the story that it is quite clear and i trace this in my book from the history chapter write-up to the present, it has been very clear we often

talk about corruption, drug corruption in the afghan government but pakistani government in my opinion has been just as corrupt if not more so by the drug trade. and nobody more than the isi. it was very well known during the soviet resistance isa -- isi officers were profiting that continued while the taliban was in power and many people believe it still goes on today. i wish shown intelligence documents that indicate for example, the isi eight station cheese in the western city that most drugs leave through as they go through afghanistan he was paid $2 million every year just to make sure the shipments got through. that gives you the idea of the amounts of money you are talking about. it is pretty scary.

>> i have a question i have been thinking about i am doing a documentary called who is wearing fed embers new clothes? one thing we find with the government propaganda things are not what they appear to be. is also said the trade of kings was in more. i wonder with afghan war around the world and maybe there are people who benefit by war. we the people look at we are the ones to pay for it but maybe we're not seeing the whole picture. maybe there's a benefit. you mentioned about karzai brother and maybe war is the gold. what do think? >> absolutely. there is a small population of people both in pakistan, afghanistan, iran comment, dubai and of the uae

that is the main barrier to things getting better but a lot of the names are well known to western officials. i can give you two examples there is a terrific report recently in toronto globe and mail about the fact that many people believe and document as evidence that the deputy county narcotics minister is deeply involved in the drug trade burger ready here's the story everybody hears about karzai everybody cares about the officials in the pakistan government that we hear about being involved in the drugs trade but if nobody ever investigates. there is never an official investigation. there is no reason why we can set up a truth commission working with afghan and pakistani officials to

investigate and if they prove to me accurate, but they could extradited and tried somewhere. survey afghanistan judiciary system is not equipped to deal with them at this point*. >> [inaudible] maybe because they won the elements in place and the government and the powers that be? that element of fear gives them more power. >> i think is certainly benefits those in power. overall, we see what is happening to both of those countries. >> so for the average person is there something we can do to help?

is it taking a trip? don't use drugs. [laughter] >> one thing i can tell you for all of you that are depressed and want to go home and smoke a joint. [laughter] afghan drugs do not tend to get smuggled into the united states. do not worry. the drugs will not support osama bin laden. [laughter] i do think the obama administration has the right idea but the question is whether we have enough money and whether we can get enough support with other allies in nato and afghanistan it will take an enormous amount of troops and senegal 17,000 troops right now, it will take and nervous about the civilian officials, law

enforcement, agriculture exports, trade lawyers come and help them to get their judicial system working, this is a nation that is badly broken. that will require an enormous force of people to help them get back on track. if you are one of those people there will be work for you in afghanistan. [laughter] is that all? >> [inaudible] it is minor by am worrying about the justification behind it all on their and whether or not, is it justifiable to them or is an aspect of the war against america or the hypocrisy? >> a good question. the taliban has a bogus

justification that they explain to farmers that they persuade or force to grow poppy which is that is long bands and the use of our traffic or trade of narcotics or alcohol. so their justification is that it is okay because it is a jihad against the infidels because we sell the drugs to the infidel last. but very little afghan hero when reaches the united states. and is about 70% of bigger when in europe and the u.k. but the vast majority of afghanistan drug crop ends up in pakistan, iran, central asia, countries like tajikistan has used her when problems. a totally bogus argument.

>> i am curious looking at the book on the cia with the national drug trade and i'm curious to the continuity of your work and you're dead to hamper also two weeks ago there was an e-mail former npr journalist and i do not remember her name but she was billed as the adviser to general mccarron and afghanistan? >> sarich ase? >> yes. one day after hurt interview he was forced to resign and i cannot help but think there was a relation between that interview and his ragged nation? >> i have no idea about that i don't know how the pentagon makes decisions nor did i see

the interview. i think sarich case has done a lot of rework and afghanistan but in terms of the rumors of the cia involvement in the drug trade this is something i heard all the time whether the reasons the u.s. was not stopping the drug trade is because of our agents were secretly involved. i even had one governor, no less of a southern afghan province he was not even a bozo. he was fairly serious individual and told me he thought there was a deal between the bin laden family and the bush family to move drugs out of the reason because the u.s. is not doing so little to stop it but resisting efforts to stop the drug trade. that'll be a great conspiracy theory from the region kind of like who shot kennedy. >> [inaudible]

>> died and either i tried to avoid getting sucked and to the conspiracy theories but it is fascinating when you start hearing afghans and pakistani is in fairly senior positions who are convinced there is a grand conspiracy between the cia and a drug smugglers. but i never found anything that proved it but you certainly hear a lot of stories. >> it sounds like you see an increase of the heroin as you get further away the speaks against the idea and i have heard through the media that that they but peel off the peripheral taliban with financial incentives. >> i think there are a lot of communities that are involved in a growing poppy in afghanistan who could be peeled away from the insurgency. one of the misunderstandings

and the west is the idea afghan farmers grow poppy because they are greedy are making lots of money. there is a small amount of huge farm landowners who are making a lot of money off of the trade but the vast majority of those who work on the ground are not only barely eking out a living but are victimized by the traffickers. they have implemented the predatory loan structure which means most people who plant poppy can sell the crop in the fall, they get paid for before they planted but the way the infrastructure works, they owe more by the time the spring harvest comes along you hear stories of farmers giving of their land, having to sell their daughters to work with a human trafficking rings and sell them to the west part of it as a miss -- a common misunderstanding and the west that people are getting rich

off of the poppy trade. there is a very small amount of people, they are very powerful but there is the attitude that i get a lot from u.s. officials that afghan is greedy and they just want the money because poppy sells 10 are 12 times more than a week or other things that they grow. in my research a lot of people have done more research on the farmers themselves than i have but they will tell you it is absolutely untrue. people's lives are being issued up by the criminality of the extremism. i actually think very much similar to the way the suni way getting brought communities over to the u.s. military to the extent they can gauge in obama's old trade

with community development i actually think a lot of these places would readily move off the drug trade. the province that produces the most opm and afghanistan -- opm ironically the fields are irrigated by a enormous a irrigation project it we did in the '60s that is why they grow more opm than anyone else but they are very nostalgic for the days when the americans were there and helping them to grow melons, roses, there are all sorts of steps in produce that they can grow it is very fertile farmland but it will be expensive to try to move them onto alternative livelihoods'. one example of former finance minister predictable cost $5 billion over five years to move afghan farmers on to alternative crops which sounds like a big price tag until you

figure we spent $2 billion every month just to run the military operations when you do the numbers nation-building start to look like a economical way out. >> anyone else? thank you. thank you very much [applause] gretchen peters has covered afghanistan for the associated press and abc news. for more business gretchen peters.org

>> what is a demagogue? >> it is a leader there is a four part definition which is one of the few times anybody has the find demagogue by a bar of the terms from james cooper and there are four characteristics they identify as a manner per cent of the people or the mass against the elite. second major great emotional reactions, third they use those reactions for personal or political benefit and the

fourth that is the most important, they bend or break establish rules of governance or law. >> host: who would you define as the american demagogue? >> urie long was the quintessential and there have been many other from daniel shea who was a revolutionary during the time of the constitutional convention i think joseph mccarthy, a george wallace, there have been david duke even in his little burst in louisiana was a demagogue. and there have also been in history when i talk about this beneficial, paradoxically you can have a demagogue if the definition is a test to establish rules but if they are unjust. there is a chapter of british history where demagogue was used as a term of praise. you have some demagogues offer

something to the people and they can do good. of most of the time the term accurately is a negative or harsh for somebody who really does threaten the system that we hold dear. >> so what is the example of a good demagogue and why? >> the head of solidarity in poland when they were overturning the regime, the soviet regime it was a beneficial demagogue, boris yeltsin at the beginning was beneficial. then you had there are the paradox, huey long was a very dangerous figure in american politics but also did paved highways and build hospitals and build schools and give textbooks so is rooted on his own ambition and his boundless

willingness to manipulate that for his own benefit but also been doing good things for thousands of people. >> the fight to save democracy from its worst enemies is the subtitle of your book. who is fighting against him? >> a great question. the book is about constitutionalism part of it follows the stories of the six great thinkers who watched as democracy stumbled around them and encountered, there is a paradox called a cycle of regimes were it is dissolving and that has haunted since being invented and that cycle was arrested when the people are committed to constitutionalism to republican values that requires a lot that keeps any leader on a short leash. so the book's title refers to the flight of people to save democracy from itself.

so with democracy you achieve the extraordinary things as we have seen in america but demagogues they can tap into people's willingness for something greater or different from the constitutional culture and cause democracy to collapse so that is the fight. it is our worst enemy. >> are there any contemporary issues where the conflict is going on? >> absolutely. right now one of the ironies of the bush administration where democracy was made the number one goal of the bush foreign policy, the freedom agenda announced in the second inaugural january 2005. coincidence with three down being on the agenda was an eruption of demagogues around the world we saw hugo chavez, venezuela, you saw

sadr here was really a cleric and iraq for the first several years of the post invasion society very dangerous by turning people against the state, mahmoud ahmadinejad was a demagogue in some ways but not in the way he came into power but the threat that he posed to other countries, the leader of hezbollah in southern lebanon is classic and will list goes on. >> host: why did you write this book? >> guest: out of a longstanding fascination with why come a democracy to me is probably the most beautiful and extraordinary thing we have come up with in a society. in the course of the human condition. but it suffers from a paradox which is freedom, probably our most valuable gift.

we can so easily let it go that i have been throughout my life at what happened in germany in the thirties they had a quite beautiful and hopeful constitution but then people of ordinary germans handed their freedom over to adolf hitler through the lawful process then turned against them that it turns out it has gone through human history over and over a happened in france during the french revolution in a few short years you have liberty and equality than a few short years later you have pierre and the guillotine's. anybody has seen dimas rumba, you have a paradox i was fascinated one days with that had to make it flourish

and ordinary people hold it so do they prevent demagogue's from preying on them? there is the answer. after years and years of thinking, it turns out political scientists have thought about it, historians, theorists, phi losophers it helps to explain some of the majesty of the american victory we still have the number one fear of the founding fathers that they wrap the top of the constitution and would establish a tierney we have not seen that much time and again americans in our constitutional culture has overcome our most pessimistic expectations of what might have been. one classic example is fdr when he tried to pack the courts and takeover the supreme court, the american people snapback so hard that

he tried to pass the law anyway but he was rebuffed by the people themselves. >> host: what is your day job? >> guest: it currently a security national security fellow at the think-tank third way. i was in washington, i have been a long time, part of the but comes from my dissertation i have a law degree and have been a practicing lawyer and a professor but i also have been a long time political activist. and the activist on social justice issues and reform in virginia which is where i am from and issues dealing with democracy of the local level and that partly explains i was john edwards foreign policy advisor on his presidential campaign issues on how to restore america's moral

authority is rooted in merit not military strength but the power of the ideas. we worked a lot on that campaign and i was very proud of what we did for a global aid, expansion of some of the ideas that i proposed in the book. it is a multilayer book has a letter of political theory and american history and for policy and national security. >> published by macmillan michael signer is the author of demagogue. the fight to save democracy from its worst enemy. >> book expo merck but at the yale university press with the director of yale university press. what is coming out this fall? >> a number of great books including the making of americans, and hersh wrote the best-selling book called cultural literacy. he cares very much about what

role education has been actually defining what it means to be mayor can and this book is sort of a capstone of his career which includes many best sellers but to talk route the centrality of the reformation and knowledge and what it means to have a shared corpus of knowledge and how important it is too our national identity and how would is being threatened by the way education seems to be split across the country. of hasselhoff of voice, advocacy, to look at what the new minister shin can do about the admit the administration. >> elephants on the edge what animals teach us about humanity? >> it is a marvelous book and very moving, touching, what she does, she has quite a platform she has been on "60 minutes" and 20/20 but she tries to understand how human

behavior affects global population of animals in the wild and captivity. is a touching subjects. people who have read these kind of issues will respond because actions do have consequences especially on those creatures that cannot argue with themselves and books. she talks about elephants having nervous breakdowns that is what the title refers to in the emotional life of animals and actually how our on empathy understanding how they be paid teaches us what it is to be human. it is the interesting turnaround in our efforts to understand animals we begin to understand ourselves a. >> to biographies coming out by charles dickens and anti-war all but tell me about the book on charles dickens. >> everybody thinks we have learned everything we need to know about charles dickens but there has not been eight

biography in over 20 years this is the first cradle to grave and a couple of decades. there is new information, new research and with dick and three think there will be some good books for sale. >> who is our third? rick a very distinguished historian or critic he writes a column for the nation and magazine and this is a posthumous that he left behind more people think it is more interesting to think of and the warhol then to look at his paintings or his large but this shows what he did to the meaning of the american icon how he has become the most significant and how did that happen? largely through working with it iconographic subjects like

the campbell soup can and this takes a look how you defines what it means to me iconic. >> as director of the press what decisions do you make on a day-to-day basis? two make easier to say what i don't. all departments run up to meet marketing, and a tour, financially, starting of course, with the books. we have a staff of 14 editors the president, the press is only as good as the books it publishes with the largest book based university press in the country and the only one with a significant london-based as well. >> host: university press celebrated the 100th anniversary last year. do have any history? >> is started in the left door