pakistan than there is in any other country of the world that because of the liberal tradition i mentioned earlier and the fact all of these people are out in the streets there is much more to lose in pakistan so from the strategic standpoint not even arguably, and arguably the most important so that is one aspect and the second aspect is the dynamism of the country is so often overlooked and that's something in the book i hope flashes that out. >> host: nick schmidle, author "to live or to perish forever." probably the best travel book memoir written in this generation. >> guest: thanks, ralph. >> "after words" and several other c-span programs are available for download of podcast. more with nicholas schmidle and ralph peters in just a moment.

"after words" with nicholas schmidle and ralph peters continues. >> host: ayaan ralph peterson, and we are having a great time today, at least i am, talking with nicholas speed, the author of "to live or to perish forever" a superb and remarkably timely book on his two recent years and pakistan, a country very much in the headlines and is granted dominate headlines for some time to come. nick, one of the striking things about this series of tales is the time spent with taliban of fighting drugs with pakistanis but the other side of the taliban, the enforcers, people bringing sharia law to the

northwest frontier and perhaps you could start us off by just telling us how you got there, introduce, something you could read from this book that will explain how you got in there. >> guest: the first thing is we were talking last time about abdul aziz ghazi. after he died he'd been my introduction to all of these and after ghazi died i wrote a piece titled farewell my jihadi friend, which was sort of a single off to this guy who helped at a complex time in my life. the article was published in urdo so even though he had been killed there was still this article i could show to various jihadis and say look, i had a role in his life. >> host: let me just say you knew what was going on because you took the trouble to learn urdo so you were not just a typical journalist relying on a translator, you were in the thick of things and knew what was being said. >> guest: right.

it became more complex in the northwest province because i didn't speak pashtun zero. i wanted to visit the taliban and swat that had taken over in the summer of 2007 shortly after the red tosk. they started a series of suicide bombings on the government and set up a sort of islamic state in swat. so to get there and needed a sort of introduction and there was a local journalist who said he could supply. he had my article from urdo that i had about ghazi thailands' and he said he seems like he is objective, you can bring him in. so i showed up in swat and took a public bus from islamabad into swat and met my friend and about two hours later we were supposed to need one of these taliban honchos and it was about a 5-mile trippi from the city to the spot on the side of the road we were to meet and this is where i will read. we had been driving a few minutes when my friend's phone

rang and someone said you should be careful there is a taliban checkpoint between where you are and where you are meeting this guy. so, five flatbed trucks blocked the road as many as 50 with black turbans shoulder length hair and long beards were packed on the back of each truck. the rocket launchers poked out of redirection. they looked like a frightening combination of livestock taken to slaughter in an overstuffed dessel of viking raiders. if one budged from the spot he might have swatted the fellow in the back with a rifle barrel. a few dozen made an impromptu checkpoint while a line of cars waited inspection. in the vehicle behind us a husband, wife and daughter looked anxious. the teenage girl fumbled to fix her scarf to meet their expectations. we will forward in line moving at a slow locker space. i unfolded a urdo newspaper and pretended to be reading. one more car. they motioned him aside. how were driver eased forward

the. the taliban looked over the car and then we've lost through. i discarded the newspaper, spun in my seat and stared out the back window like a true voice i want to watch and keep watching them for hours to cram the image into my mind forever of them commanding the road and maybe i could go back later and soon in for a closer look. at the moment of close contact i was too scared to be noticed to take pictures. analysts had warned of the talabanization sweeping pakistan, a looming threat, a different kind pakistan. that pakistan was no longer a figment of someone's worried imagination. four hours from the capitol, five trucks of militants, totally on challenged by the police, paramilitary forces or the army had arrived. >> host: and of course man borat and swat and the pakistani army currently staging a major offensive to try to take a back from the taliban. but you got even deeper in the taliban world and swat, which is

again just a few hours from the capitol city of islam a lot on the other side of the indus. can you tell a little bit more about for instance there's a marvelous passage in the book about your summer camp with the talab and you got to see the ministers and local justice. >> guest: as a quick interlude the guy we were going to beat that night was this fellow that was a local taliban commander and he wasn't part of the hard-core taliban, and this -- on of the themes of the book is illustrating the divide between the old generation of taliban and the new generation of taliban. so the night we eventually met up with this guy he made a call and said he told us after he called ahead, described our car, given our license plate and the talib as i described part in debates and lead us through and this is so indicative of the importance of connections and relationships in pakistan but particularly the northwest frontier province. so we got to this guy's house that might and broke the fast,

it was during ramadan and after we broke the fast we started talking about life in swat and what was happening and this guy started showing me dee dee dee's and videos of talib attacking americans and afghanistan and iraq which again was six hours from the capitol. i was in the middle of nowhere not about to stand up and say my dad and brother are a part of the crusading army used in your life against but i had no other choice, right. so i changed the subject and start talking about philosophy and up this point the guy said you know osama has written a philosophy book and i said no i didn't so he brought me in the next room and showed me this bookshelf full of al qaeda paraphernalia and amongst them was a back pack and he said osama's philosophy book is in a backpack but i promise the person that left that that i wouldn't touch it until he came back and i nudged at him and said so who is the guest that your so worried about and he said this guy was left by osama

number two and i felt at this moment maybe it's time to get back to the hotel for the night. >> host: the you had already eaten so it didn't spoil your appetite. >> guest: the next day we call this guy as we are about to go back to the taliban camp and his response when we said we are having second thoughts we are a little bit worried his response was no way am i going to go with you guys, those guys are extremists. this was the divide. >> host: said this guy who had a house guest, al-zawahiri, osama number two, is scared of the other taliban guys that you are on the road to meet. >> guest: totally. so a day later we go to meet -- we had been invited by the serious taliban, the ones causing all the problems right now in swat. october, 2007 before the pakistani army had told in and everyone knew that the taliban were gaining strength but no one knew what extent so there were two ways to get to the taliban

camp from the city. there was the swat river that separated the two and you could either go over the bridge and crossed miles of taliban country running the risk at a random check point someone didn't get the message that you were the welcome guest of the day and something could happen or you could ride along the road, park the car and board a carriage attached is a plain taking people across the river into the middle of the camp. we clearly chose the second option, it seemed fun and less dangerous oddly enough, and we boarded this carriage with six other guys and watched as the car and our chances of any sort of quick getaway disappear on and we arrived in the middle of this campaign was like you said was like a summer camp. there were jihadis playing of the system. everyone is walking around with guns and long hair. >> host: by the way to interject one of the things people don't understand about pakistan is this is a land of

poets. poetry is incredibly powerful. it's in the language -- not arabic poetry but urdo has a poetic tradition so you are really seeing a wide range of traditions in this camp. >> guest: very much and this is actually passed schoem poetry. the nature of the pastho poetry is was a rite of passage, the father telling the son you've grown up and it's time to fight jihad, that was the phrase repeated throughout so we met the guy that's running this whole operation right now that no one has seen in years literally. he emerged and welcome to me and he was this young sort of goofy guy with flynn stone tease and long hair and said you are welcome to spend the day, go wherever you like and i leaned over to my translator and said tell him that we very much appreciate this but we are in a

camp right now of ten to 15,000 people who are all eager to fight any american. anybody guard would be great, and as a show of hospitality he took his senior bodyguard for the day and said watch the american and local journalist to make sure nothing happens to them so here we are crawling around the camp with his top lieutenant as our bodyguard and so there was the mosque, the fri service and shortly after that the taliban had set up a wooden platform in the middle of the river in a bank in the middle of the river in which they're going to administer their first public lashing on this day and myself and ten or 15,000 people sat around the platform and the talibs marched three people who had been quote are arrested in a plot and march each of them on the platform and lashed them 25, 20 and 15 times depending on the extent of their involvement in the crime. >> host: and that's another thing that often gets mixed and

western reporting is that taliban and similar organizations and other muslim countries have been able to make great inroads with people because the locals are discussed it with corruption in the local system and the taliban, along with the sharia law. first to bring some integrity, where you couldn't bribe the taliban were going to get punished if you molested a woman, etc.. and what leader of course the taliban rule becomes oppressive as we have seen in pakistan. but clearly it was resonating with those people on that day. >> guest: the captain to the vein. the government had collapsed. there were no police, there was no security service so the taliban were the only ones we racing around to stop kidnappers. the taliban were the only ones punishing people so it's hard to identify what is the main driver

of the initial thrust of the taliban is the fact pakistan has never had on like india significant land reforms so there are massive land owners with lots of people -- >> host: such as the late benazir bhutto's family. >> guest: exactly. and this is why parts of pakistan that have yet to be infected with this taliban problem many ways right for it because you have hundreds of thousands of people living on land for's property very oppressed and downtrodden and the taliban can come in and promised to sort of, you know, give them strength and no longer be willing and disliking the law based on sharia and of the whim of the landlord whether it be in a debate over family. that struck a chord. >> host: based on my own experiences of pakistan often joke, it's only half a joke corruption of pakistan is a bad mix nigeria look like a better

meeting but it's not just corruption, there's hypocrisy, too and i know from your book you saw plenty. what used to trouble me in pakistan in a hotel if i wanted a beer i had to literally selling half a dozen different forms and have it delivered to my room where i would drink it secretly looking away from the prior orientation mecca any parties among the elite, the whiskey, preferably johnnie walker black, if not johnnie walker black, last week's indian whiskey is for when freely and i know you saw this. the point being caught corruption, hypocrisy and all sell as you just alluded to, some of the most profound differences in wealth between the phenomenon, which ruling families of pakistan and the people who live in virtually -- serfdom. >> guest: if i could talk about the urban elite -- >> host: please do. >> guest: this is the key to understanding why pakistan

hasn't sold itself up until now that fighting the taliban is their work. the urban elite as you mentioned will drink whiskey at night, will talk in support of the taliban. everyone in pakistan, many people in pakistan or in love with the taliban idea. the romance, the guys that are righteous, simple, basic muslims just trying to implement all and yet no one really wants to live under the same guys. they don't want the streets to be patrolled, they certainly don't want to be lashed buy then so this is a major difference and up until very recently when the time of an advanced within 60 miles of islam a lot and conquered the district of buneir mirrors what i don't think they realized that younkins was becoming a real and was on their doorstep in many ways. >> host: nick i know from what you said today in your book you believe pakistan will model

three and yet you know the scenario you describe, the situation you detailed in your book sound severely like the situation in the mid-1970s. >> guest: you're right and i find myself going back and forth. i find myself adopting the position of pakistan will muddle through, and then there's been certain people of course over the past year and a half have said what is in place to really prevent pakistan from defaulting and the situation becoming like iran and 79 and the initial response pakistan is a huge army. well negative jon had a huge army as well. and so i think that what prevents it from being there i think that we are beginning to see a sea change. i think the talent and overplayed their hand. i think the taliban overplayed by moving into buneir and we are going to gradually see a shift in its interesting that the

president sorry for all of his faults -- >> host: and there are many. >> guest: he is a fairly savvy character and i don't think that he did this on purpose but inadvertently the peace deal with the taliban that he signed an swat was sold to western countries and western diplomats as we are going to give the taliban this if they move out of this than they will know what their real intentions are and you know what, the irony and i don't give him full credit for planning it this way but the irony is the taliban did just that. they moved out and now the country has turned against the taliban in many ways, so it's a weird strategic success on his part that in light of the spirit of object to the i felt like i should give him credit for. >> host: certainly the question as we speak today is whether the army will continue the offensive or border. we are speaking right now with a terrific young author, a brave young man, nicolas schmidle,

author of "to live or to perish forever." and i would like to briefly move away from your adventures in pakistan and bangladesh to ask you look, this is remarkably mature and well-written book. where on earth did you learn to like this? >> guest: that's a good question. >> host: certainly not the u.s. school system. >> guest: that's very kind -- >> host: it's clean and clear. >> guest: i wrote something once and i can't profess having followed his advice to the letter t but i think it was in hemingway's nonfiction collection called by line and a sort of young apprentice of his said how do i learn to write, poppa and hemingway's response was you've got to read the classics because you've got to know -- you have to know what you are up against and journalists are very competitive in terms of the story but i don't think that they are that competitive in terms of the way they told the story. and so what i have always tried to do -- there were a lot of reporters in pakistan not actually in swat but working on

similar things while i was there always trying to find the way to tell the story clean, more compelling, more character driven and so that notion that hemingway notion knowing what your up against and always kind of competing -- y right if you are not going to write something better than what's been done previously? >> guest: >> host: truly the character portraits and there are many in this book some short in some detailed, they do work. the pakistanis in this book to get up off the page and live and breathe. congratulations on that. what's next for you? more adventures? >> guest: good question. >> host: please don't tell me you're going to become a washington journalist. you're too talented. >> guest: no, actually now that i was kicked out of pakistan once, chased out of pakistan again, so unfortunately as long as i still -- i'm obviously to some extent

threatening to the establishment. i have no idea why. i know it is a self in grindle is in thing to say but i've put the standard aside for a bit. i was in the maltese a bit -- for the "the new york times" for the climate. i've done some stuff for africa. i hope to spread out a bit. i'm interested in how the economic crisis with the results of a political instability around the world as a result of the economic crisis and how will this recalibrating is sort of political center and around the world as various right-wing and left-wing groups prop up to use the crisis to their advantage. >> host: during the two years in pakistan that captured so marvelously in this book you did get to india and you didn't -- india didn't capture you? >> guest: to some extent in this is very eclectic and jerry -- is in chanting but we went to india as a vacation.

>> host: not enough trouble for you? >> guest: there was something i don't know i feel comfortable. i've in minneapolis a couple weeks ago and there's a large community in minneapolis and inside some of these somali in malls there are no windows, they are just very close, very much like a traditional and the call to prayer is going off. >> host: a bizarre marketplace. >> guest: exactly. it struck a chord and i thought this is familiar. there's something comfortable about the culture for me. we will see. but i did spend time in bangladesh which is culturally, religiously very much like pakistan. >> host: which had been part pakistan petition in 1947. >> guest: right. >> host: it spun off after the civil war and now as one of the poorest most vibrant countries in the world. >> guest: that's exactly right. and socially, it couldn't be more different in pakistan and

that -- >> host: how? >> guest: you can go -- the conspiracy hawking, the notion there's a cia plot behind every thing is not there. so i didn't have to dress in local clothes. before i went to the taliban area as i was telling my hair to try to blend in because the fear factor was there and bangladeshi good will into any village, talk to people, ask questions. it was very easy to work. a very simple country in terms of simple people that don't come with a lot of psychological baggage the pakistanis to often. >> host: that is their tradition which is very different. but in your book explains to the degree why extremism hasn't gotten the attraction in bangladesh which is another huge muslim country. >> guest: right. bangladesh in 1971 many people will tell you bangladesh fought for independence to free itself of the is dramatization that pakistan was trying to impose.

geographically, i mean, india, the second largest country in the world, ferret largest was in the middle of pakistan and bangladesh sogegian graphically it was an unattainable notion that these would be one country. the pakistani establishment based in the west wing pakistan as we know was trying to connect and told the countries together through an increasingly intense islam camping. many people will tell you, many bangladesh will tell you they fought wants to free themselves and to drive -- and pose a secular democracy on the fight against islam as asian and they are not about to let it happen again so you do see a very vibrant reactions against the emergence of the islamist parties. >> host: one thing we need to talk about in this out were that's gone by quickly and i hope it has for the viewers as well. you're a great storyteller and person as well as on the page is this huge desolate sometimes threatening pakistani province of baluchistan in the southwest

corner, the big boot in southwest pakistan through the wild to a port that pakistan dreams of developing with chinese help as a world-class outlet for asian oil and gas. >> guest: the sport is called gwadar -- it's what the government is sort of banking on. this would become the next dubai. so when i went there in the fall of 27, they had just built a glorious five-star hotel up on the top of -- it's a hammer head shape today and on the top of this hammerhead shaped herber, and what's happened though is that in doing this and building this part and investing so much confidence, the baluchis, the natives of this area for the very disenfranchised say look this might be the next dubai but we are not going to get a piece

of it. >> host: and they have been excluded, the pakistani government. >> guest: totally. and there was an influential shipping magnate who mentioned to me that the government was prohibiting baluchis from even sweeping the floor. there was no piece of the project that was going to be for them. baluchi politicians are now the province joost -- this has been the grievance they've been able to locally the most recent credence the baluchi nationalist parties have been able to leverage as their drive and motivation to sever themselves from pakistan. >> host: even there you are meeting fascinating people, fishermen being pushed out of existence. you're witnessing the destruction of an old civilization, a fishing village that people are attempting to turn into dubai. i personally am skeptical whether they will do it. but their reporting is just terrific. and as we move into the final few minutes of this interview -- i wish we had more time -- when

i write her as good as you are finishes the book, finally sees it in print almost inevitably he or she will suddenly think but i didn't capture this or i should have said that or i needed to get this person. any regrets, anything that you think he would have liked to put an and you did and or any person you felt should have been there? >> guest: no -- >> host: or are you perfect? >> guest: no i am not by any means perfect but this is a book about my life those two years and while it is a piece of journalism and while it is -- while it is a book obviously i've written it's a reflection of the two years lived there and i kind of try to live by the notion that you do when you did so there are certain people i wish i would have spent more time with. there are certain people i wish there were characters but i think the portrait of ghazi -- >> host: it's a brilliant

portrait. >> guest: i wish there was other character i could have drawn out to understand the mind of someone with it b. ag haughty or pakistani army officer that often oversimplified. >> host: you did on the other hand the opposite of ghazi you did spend some time with senior political leaders, with the rich and privileged islamic law and elsewhere. when you go from seeing the abject poverty in these areas or urban slums in karachi is another story of itself to these parties would that create some sort of psychological disconnect? >> guest: i often would rather -- i tried to stay away from the party scene. i try to stay away from even the bureaucrats. >> host: and you stayed away from them by and large. >> guest: there was little to contribute. you knew what they were going to say. you knew the conversation was going to immediately turn to how american policy had handicapped pakistan's development and not

to totally -- america isn't free of any responsibility in pakistan's lack of development by supporting military dictatorship and what not. but the conversation with the elite were too predictable if you will and i think that when i first arrived in pakistan a woman said to me, a very conspiracy hawking anti-american -- >> host: your sponsor. >> guest: am i sponsor of course. she said there's no way you like any other western journalist is going to understand pakistan because you don't speak the language, you don't dress locally and don't leave islamabad. a year later i would rather speak with the boys at my office then the other fellows working at this institute and she came to me one day and said there's no way you can be a journalist. use urdo commodores locally and know what's going on so you must be working for someone else. >> host: and i did find that in pakistan