carriers implement programs asap programs and i think captain prater would agree are all fully in use at main line levels and would make a marked difference applied at the federal levels. number three, we need to put in a new training standard, if you will. there's a long open training at the faa. i think probably it would be wise for the faa to implement an arc an aviation rule committee, and take a hard look at aqp programs, advanced qualification programs, if you will, that are -- have been developed by main line carriers, could be mentored and transported to regional carriers to improve safety in terms of training. number four, i think you need to take or have the -- direct the faa to take a hard look at how

they better enforce the sterile cockpit rule. we recognize that there are privacy issues involved here. but i think there needs to be some kind of monitoring of cockpit tapes on a frequent basis. >> random auditing? >> yeah, at some point and i suspect captain prater would acknowledge that as long as we protect the privacy of the pilots, there's a way that can be done. next, i think you need to have a very specific program promulgated by the faa on records so that when a carrier goes out to hire an individual pilot, they have access to all of that pilot's records in the same place and in the same format so that they can have a complete look at what has gone on there. and finally, excuse me --

finally, i think you need to make sure that we have a very close look at the whole process that is used by the faa to regulate 121 and how many of these issues need to be incorporated in it or whether or not the standard is fine. it just needs to be an enforcement issue. so those are some very specific recommendations. >> that's very helpful. and i think we need to somehow get that in some joint letter at the faa to make sure that we're reviewing those recommendations. the other witnesses -- do you agree that some things need to be added? >> we would wholeheartedly support the points that mr. may pointed out. i think the industry, again, one industry in concurrence on these type of issues -- let me just point out two specific things in addition.

this integrated database of pilot records is something that congress and the -- can direct the faa to do and to do it immediately so that the access to this information is readily available to people as we hire -- the better information we have about everybody in the system, the safer it will be. and the other issue underscoring the use of cvrs and i think as you all talked about in your -- in your remarks, it is a tragedy that we are hearing all the issues that congress, the faa are learning about are from -- it had to be after the tragedy. and that is a shame. that if there is a tool out there that can be used to help

prevent accidents that is getting information about how to prevent accidents before they happen and we are not even touching it, that is a real tragedy. >> captain? >> sure, i'd like to respond. we're talking band-aids and we need to look at the system. the thought that we can somehow monitor cockpit voice recorders and somehow improve the safety or the compliance of pilots, let us focus on the professionalism and the training of those airmen who do this day in and day out. we're missing something here. we're missing that these airmen have been doing their job. now, let's not take this accident and try to say it was caused because pilots were talking in the cockpit. you have to communicate. you have to relay. i'm not going to talk about this one because it's still under investigation and analyzing.

do we want to improve it? yes, where do you learn from become ago professional. you learn it from the men and women you respect. you break the chain and you keep moving around flying and where do you get that experience? all of a sudden a new first officer is flying with somebody who's only been flying for three years. that wouldn't have happened if the airlines wouldn't keep pushing flying around the system. it took me 12 years to make captain. that used to be the norm. we went through 12 years or 8 years or 5 years of airline operations. now it's much quicker. >> let me just be clear -- you object to kind of random reviews of cockpit recordings just to verify that we're keeping sterile cockpits and following other rules. you object to that? >> i don't object to it as long as it's done in the system like an asap program where it can be protected and we learn about safety. if you want to use it to monitor -- you'll actually create a cockpit that may not be

as safe. let's not mistake that sterile cockpit means we're focused upon flying the airplane at critical points. that is standard. that's what goes on. i think we're assuming a little bit too much. if it's protected and used as safety data, then we should be able to find a way to make the system safer and that is our shared goal. >> uh-huh. i know just about every service company i call on the telephone now, bank or whatever, is going to say, this call may be audited for quality purposes. and you can't improve what you don't measure and i think to assume one-time-training scheme is going to monitor potential problems over the lifetime of a pilot is like assuming the same thing for an airplane. so i'm a little concerned that you consider that a band-aid. do you consider getting the records -- keeping records of

pilots over their career -- is that a band-aid? >> again, are we going to compare apples with apples? which training school did they come out of? you don't want to create a system where, hey, joe, go to x, x, training school because they don't flunk anybody. you won't have anything on your record or do you want them to go to the hardest school out there where they push you to your limits, push you to a failure, not of a check-ride but all these are maneuvers that we must be trained in over and over, whether they're emergencies or back to basic flying skills. >> uh-huh. so you don't want to create a system that actually finds a way of getting around that. don't create a loophole >> i know i'm over time but can we allow mr. maurer just to comment to the suggestions that have been made? >> i guess i'd just like to remind everybody -- when you're sitting in the passenger section of the plane, again, you're

unaware of who's up there on the other side of those doors. is full disclosure too much of a thing to ask when you're life is at hand? another comment, chairman dorgan had that chart up there. my commute to work is 7 miles. members of the senate, i know that you come from pretty far away but you have a residence here. you have someplace here. perhaps the airline industry needs to consider providing for that kind of thing. if we're going to allow pilots to commute these great distances. i happen to travel probably every other week. and it's not uncommon for me to be sitting side-by-side with pilots who were commuting to their base. base location.

they're tired. i get in conversations with them all the time. they're tired. those hours don't count towards the critical restrictions. i mean, these are things that we've got to take into account. we learned in our accident of long hours that were taken just getting to work and then you're going to climb on a plane and fly. let's keep the human element in mind. let's not be defensive. >> senator lautenberg? >> thanks. i think there was a response to a question by senator dorgan that kind of missed the boat about the relatively modest wage that -- wages that are paid to people. such as the fellow who flew

copilot in that flight 3407 because you said it's the kind of pay scale that might -- that might be applied in other professions. but i think the point was missed because if someone is not making enough money to take care of themselves, their families, it will typically mean a second job, a second opportunity to earn some more money is in the cards. as a consequence, there's more effort, there's more opportunity of fatigue to enter into the individual's operation. so i think when we talk about a profession in the year might pay $20,000 a year we're talking about, that's almost minimum wage for any kind of job, whether it's a janitor or

otherwise or bank teller. so we have to look at these in real time. and, you know, at the previous hearing that we held on aviation safety, one of the questions that i raised was how many times does an inability to pass a test be allowed before it's three strikes or whatever the number is and you're out? i mean, would anyone here want to go into major surgery, heart, head, whatever, and have a physician there who flunked his tests five times before -- they squeezed him through the operation and put him life in his hands? i think there's a point in time when you have to say, hey, if you can't master this in two or

three times, then this is -- then find something else to do. people love to fly. i know a lot of pilots. i sat a lot in second seats in small airplanes and flying it's a glamorous job. it really is. i don't know how it is as a commercial operation when you're sitting in seats to fly back home or otherwise away from home, et cetera but i think there's a point in time, captain prater that, say, hey, this is not the kind of -- the simulators have -- replicate emergency situations. >> very much so. you can really do a good job of training for emergencies. it doesn't replicate, though, the fact that when you're in an airplane it's much more three-dimensional. all the forces on you so

sometimes you have to go back to that basic airmenship but to your point, sir, at most of the airlines that three strikes and your out is just about the way it works. it's oversimplified but we give an airman two chances. there's a training review board where the company, the industry -- we may even send the pilot out for a physical, a psychological example is there something else is going on but basically by the third time of that failure, trying to master the same maneuver or the same airplane and pilots' jobs are at risk at that point. >> so this was an oddity that had the captain of this flight failing five times over a period of years, records that go back far enough to dig out the information? >> again, i think we have to make sure we're comparing apples

with apples. if he had problems in his private pilot license or commercial pilot license with basic airmenship skills and had to be retrained there but we can't get away from the fact that he met all of them at the faa standards and they met the standards that their employer had set as required by the fars. >> has the testing, the training for a regional pilot the same as it is for pilots in the major airlines? >> yes, it is, senator. >> it is. do the regular airline companies, aviation companies, pay as little as $20,000 a year and put someone even alongside a trained captain in the cockpit? senator, as a practical matter,

the pilots that are hired by the main line have significantly more seniority on average and are paid at a higher level. pay is a function of collective bargaining and it's generally also conditioned on the number of hours, number of hours in a particular type of aircraft, whether or not they've been a pilot in command, whether or not they are first officers. so there are a number of factors involved in pay but it's effectively the exclusive jurisdiction of collective bargaining and seniority. >> before someone achieves the status of captain, is there a requirement in the regionals that they fly a particular number of hours? have flown a particular number of hours? >> basic fars require 1500 hours of total flight time, to be aged 23 years old. that's the basics. that's not a lot of time in many

cases, pilots do exceed that before they check out as captain. but in rapidly expanding environments, it is of a concern. it's also of a concern of how much actual experience -- time isn't the only generator. if you flew a b-52 for 20-hour missions, it's not the same amount of training as making six takeoffs and landings a day in an airline environment. so time doesn't cure all here. >> senator, excuse me, if i might. >> go ahead. >> for the record, our average captain at a regional airline has 8500 hours. that's pretty experienced and our average first officer is well over 3,000 hours. >> maybe not dealing with averages but rather with specifics might be called for. to say the captain of an airplane that's got a less skilled copilot has to be -- have had more experience than the basic experience.

that might be a good rule to put into play. if you're going to take someone who's new at this job, then again considering all of the factors, they're complicated as could be -- but if you look at what is required of the passenger flow today in major airlines, that -- or regionals, the passengers are examined so thoroughly to make sure that they can't bring down an airplane. and when we look at the skills and the training and reaction ability of a pilot, that's much more casually done. and i think we can learn from that. not to change the security process. but rather to say that the person who's up in the front of that airplane has to really be

able manage all situations. mr. maurer, i know that it's painful for you to review this, but you're doing a noble job when you say, let my loss be a lesson for others and i think we have to take that very much to heart. thank you. >> thank you, senator johanns? >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. cohen, how many regional airlines are in operation out there today? how many would that be? >> mr. chairman, senator, again, as it's been talked about, the term regional airline is more of a term almost of art rather than of science. there are 31-member raa member airlines and those 31 members carry 90-plus percent of the passengers in scheduled service. >> how many of those would be

profitable today? how many are actually making money? >> mr. chairman, senator, many of them -- some of them are privately held so they do not report and i just don't have that information available to me. >> of those who are not privately owned could you get that information for us. >> we would be glad to get it to you and provide it to the committee, absolutely. >> okay. let me understand your business model because i think that bears on some issues here. as i understand it, the cost of the ticket that i would purchase is not determined by that region. it's determined by the carrier they contract with; is that correct? >> for the majority -- for the vast majority of business operations, yes. >> how are your revenues determined then?

is it based on that ticket cost? >> there's a variety of advice arrangements which are proprietary in nature but it's for my general understanding that it can be one of a couple of ways. that probably the predominant way is now what's called fee for departure that basically the regional airline is given a schedule that is paid in some fashion based on the number of flight hours, the number of trips, the performance of those trips and so forth. there are regional airlines that are wholly owned subsidiaries of major airlines. that may be a different relationship. there are some independent flying regional airlines. that's a smaller group. there are some business models that actually have a little bit of a -- where the ticket price

may be split but that is a very small percentage. >> is it impacted by the number of people on the plane? so if you're flying 50 versus 5 your revenues are going to be better? >> only in those where the regional carrier would be sharing in the risk of the revenue for the flight. >> okay. >> but again, these are proprietary. i've never seen one. it's just my general understanding. >> they're statistics to how many of these regionals have gone bankrupt because, of course, that's a public sort of event. how many would that be? >> i've been the president of the regional airline association for a little over 2 1/2 years and of our members, i believe two may have gone out of business in those two years of our members but again, i can get you the exact information.

>> okay. on the pilots themselves, you know, i started out as a young lawyer and had you asked me at age 23 are you ready to handle the most complex cases in a courtroom setting, i would have said absolutely. i got my law degree, i got my bar certificate, let's go. i wasn't anywhere near ready. is the regional airline regarded as the training ground for pilots? you go there, you pick up some hours, you do some flying back and forth to wherever. and you pick up those hours and eventually you hopefully get to a big carrier and maybe eventually go transcontinental, i don't know what the next steps would be. is that the case? >> unfortunately, that's what this system has produced and it's not the safest model, sir.

>> yeah. you see, mr. cohen, averages mean nothing to me. when i walk on that airplane and i stick my head in the cockpit and say, boy, i feel so good that the average salary here is whatever you told me it was. i would never say that. i want to know they are trained and ready and can handle thunderstorms and icing and keep me out of trouble. so your averages just don't land anywhere with me. they miss the mark completely. what would be the minimum salary per year that a pilot would be hired to come on board? >> mr. chairman, i don't have -- senator johanns, i don't have the minimum again. the average which is -- i believe we've provided some information to the committee. i can get you that of our member airlines. we can provide that going

forward. >> i want you to get that. your averages mean nothing. >> that new pilots make 16 to $18,000 a year for a full-time job unless if he or she is on reserve. >> and doing that kind of commuting? >> yes, sir. >> okay. now, i've traveled extensively when i was in the cabinet, i must admit i got tired of it. but one of the things that really, really hammered me was the constant time changes. the poor diet, the lack of exercise because you can never have a schedule. when these folks are traveling from out of the west coast over to the east coast and they've gone through all those time changes, how does that compute? if you see somebody that has spent the whole night can can they literally land in new jersey and get on an airplane and start flying?

maybe the pilot. >> while it is possible it is also true they may have flown that flight across the country five-hour flight in the middle of the night and then be expected to sit around for a couple of hours, as many as five or six hours and then fly the trip. so i would put it in the terms of where is it more -- is it any more restful sitting in coach seat trying to get to work for two -- two hours or driving to an airport for two hours. is in i think we have we have to look at that. obviously, the subject of commuting has some focus especially on our first duty day. is that first duty day are you sufficiently rested to do your next 16 hours of duty? that's what we have to look at, those extensive periods. but i think in this case what also is forgotten is that copilot could have flown that trip instead of just ridden on it and been legal to fly that afternoon and fly that trip. that's a fact.

>> let me -- and i'm out of time so i'm going to zero in on this in a very focused way. but let's say i grew up in florida. and i get my training in florida and i'm used to thunderstorms but i have no idea what icing is about. never flown in it. maybe got a little bit training on it but no experience, whatsoever. could a regional hire me to fly a northern route? mr. chairman, no, that person would be trained extensively in the type of operations that he or she is going to be -- is going to be flying in. >> captain, how much -- >> i would disagree at this point. that pilot has passed the minimums for all types of operations and all types of weather and if his or her experience has been specifically in one area or one region of the country, they could be thrown

into the worst weather of the northeast or the mountain flying or whatever without further training. and that's -- we have to talk about specific training at different points. when you move pilots around the system, we must continue that training cycle and i think it's deficient in that area. i'll just wrap up, mr. chairman, with this very quick thought. i asked these questions and i'll be very candid about it because i worry that because of economics or whatever we're trying to do this on the cheap. and we are hiring pilots at a very low wage. i don't know how you'd live on that salary and you know what you're ending up with? people who are trying to build their hours to move out of the regional system. if that is the case, that's very worrisome. now, mr. cohen, you represent these fine folks. prove to me i'm wrong.

is burden is on the airlines to prove the safety of our travel. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. and mr. maurer, thank you very much for your testimony. as i understand in my opening, you know, i have experienced tragedy in my family with a plane crash with my father in that the plane was never recovered. and it took a tragedy back then to change the rules requiring locater beacons in planes because of that incident. and it was the largest air recovery attempt in this country's history. and so it seems always when we deal with air traffic safety, it's always a tragedy that moves us to the next stage. so i appreciate you being here. i'm very, very sympathetic from personal reasons, but, you know, as i was listening to the testimony -- mr. cohen, i feel

like you're on the hot seat and i appreciate your being history. but as i was listening to you, i asked my staff -- 'cause i know all the associations have conferences and meetings and so forth so while you were testifying, i said go get me a copy of your last conference, which was held in midmay. and it was a four-day, five-day conference. this was now two, three months after the significant incident -- as you described it, a very significant incident in the regional airlines' history. but yet when i looked through the conference agenda of four and a half days i see very little mention of safety except in the last -- let me just finish, in the last couple days. now, i'm assuming through the discussion of the conference you had conversations. i know as a former mayor when the katrina disaster happened, we spent a whole conference on it because of the importanf