and so as you talk about the ideas and suggestions, i want to -- and i think senator johanns said it very clearly. it's on you. and i can only look at what's been done in your comments today. so i want to take a couple steps -- and if you want to quickly comment on the convention. that's great. .. of our member airlines need for the entire length of that

conference. that is a meeting of which everything is shared to protect these issues with the faa, with members of the ntsb, that are there, and it is not a public meeting, so they can share those experiences, so you are exactly correct, that was not on the public website. they meet for 10 hours a day in a windowless room, we would urge you when the next time they meet here, they meet regularly, i would urge members of this committee to come, you are invited, we would love to have you there. >> would you share the outcome of your last conference meeting with the committee? >> in needs to be confidential. i would be happy to oblige. let me go to another issue that senator johanns talked about, the pay rate. i am not going to debate you.

it surprised me you did not know the beginning salary range. as the association ever done a salary study? i am guessing they must have had some analysis and the many years you have been in existence and if so, can you provide that to the committee? >> mr. chairman, senator, we will provide you the information of our member carriers, what is publicly available, we will get that to you. >> i would push a little further. we have rules, we can keep things by information, you can stretch further if you can. >> we will do so. >> the issue on the pay, you mentioned the compensation pay is not necessarily the driving factor, i would disagree with you, so it is clear on that fact. as former mayor, managing over 500 police officers, 300 public safety people, paramedics and fire. what i never wanted them to have was a second job.

i wanted to one -- one job. so we paid them very well. the result was we had very limited problems because of that. they didn't have to worry about their family and taking care of them. i want to disagree with you on that and as you the simple question, taking it as the chairman talked about, $23,000, in alaska, small planes regional, we have some great regionals in alaska, from the ones that operate currently there, the pace seems to me an important factor in creating quality so that the quality of a pilot doesn't literally fly to the majors to keep them for long-term careers. do you honestly think, i am going off of the pilots association because as long as they get a paycheck, 22, $23,000 is adequate for us to have people flying planes, i don't

care if it is one person or 20 people or 50 people. >> 2 points to that, the pay of virtually every mutt one of our member airlines is constantly bargains. >> that is not my question. as a former mayor, i deal with collective bargaining all the time. is it the right kind of case to have, should we require minimums that are guaranteed pay levels for pilots in regional planes? this is the question i asked last week to folks. >> senator, we believe the industry, this very complex issue, we believe fundamentally that quality of the people that be have flying is good. we would like to get even better, that is one of the reasons we have strongly supported a number of issues that have been discussed today

to get better training. there is an investment too. it is interesting that this committee which is responsible for so much into the next generation of technology and spending billions of dollars, that we believe there can be some money spent on the human capital in our aviation safety system. we would strongly support that. >> let me ask, if i can, both of you. mr. may can answer too, and captain prater, if you want to answer this very quickly, a simple question. that is the whole issue of down time, and faa's minimums that they currently have, and each one of you mentioned standard requirements. do you think the minimums too low? the minimum standards for pilots, downtime as well as other issues? do you think there too low and

need to be raised? can we start with you? mr. may? >> you are talking about flight duty time? >> yes. >> there are probably appropriate. we made a commitment at a call to action on monday, to enter into a science based study to determine whether or not they are currently opprobrium or not. there has been a recent proceeding on all along flying that the faa has done, it was science base, plenty of skilled people available to do that. we probably ought to incorporate the chairman -- the chairman has raised this issue of commuting. we ought to incorporate that into the process, and so we would strongly endorse a process being established to look at flight duty time, current

standards, how they might differ, lots of takeoffs and landings, all of that needs to be put on the table. >> my time is definitely up, so if you could be quick on the response. >> we believe there has been enough study, we are ready to move forward with it, we believe there is enough science on the record, we are going to make our recommendations directly to the faa and work with the associations to move that process forward. >> can you share that with the committee? >> of course. >> thank you for having this hearing. the tragedy of the code and air flight brought the safety of public airlines into the public eye. senator begich has the personal story for me that is eerily reminiscent of the crash of paul wellstone's plane. that is a private plan, the issues were a race, pilot

training and fatigued. when i hear this from our hearing last week, and they're paid pilots, pilots that are tired, pilots that are not earning enough money, it reminds me very much of that. you have a factor of pilots living far from their base, leading to long commutes and a lot of time spent waiting in the airport. there are some questions about fatigue. i have a question about the reimbursement for hotel rooms in the evening. some of the larger airlines pay for hotel costs so pilots get sleep before shifts. regional carriers are doing the same thing? >> senator klobuchar, when pilots are on duty, the minute they check in, their hotel costs on duty are paid for, 100% by the company. they also receive a travel --

the same main line and regional. there is no distinction between the way those policies are done between major airlines and regional airlines. >> anyone have anything to add on that? >> there's a fair amount of difference but where you are going is is the pilot getting adequate rest, and a place to get that adequate rest before he or she begins that trip out of whatever domicile they have been assigned to and the answer is no, they're not provided by the airlines. >> they fly to start the first trip from somewhere, and there may not be away for them to get reimbursed for of flight, because it is not in between flights. was that the case here? i know she was spending the day in an airport. >> i seriously doubt -- i can say without a doubt they were not given a place to get

adequate rest, provided for or compensated for a hotel room. >> we heard the regional pilots are likely to become tired and fatigue by flying, they are flying more flights per day rather than one long flight and that could happen with major carriers too, they're doing more takeoff and landings in one day and they may be more prone to fatigued. >> having spent more time fatigued than anybody on the panel, there are a lot of different ways. the fatigue of a 16 hour flight is different, but just as important. as a pilot who is flying 7 legs, 7 different landings in the middle of winter weather. it all adds to the same place.

at the peak of his or her performance. >> the issue of fatigue is a serious one. the exploration, there is a lot of new science on fatigue, the possibility of exploring fatigue testing, let's start gathering the data, testing people for fatigue. we have the ability to do that but we don't currently. we would strongly urge you. >> i have read enough sleep studies to know that if people don't have enough sleep, i am not disputing that testing is good and finding more details, the bottom line is if they don't have enough sleep because they are sitting in an airport at haven't slept the night before, they don't have enough money to pay for a hotel room, you're

going to have problems. that is why i was glad that administrator pandith is going to have new rest requirements which will be helpful. i want to talk about the deicing issues, that was clearly an issue here, the first officer told the pilot in this crash, i have never seen icing conditions, i have never experienced any of that. this is clearly a factor in the crash. our regional aircraft more susceptible to problems associated with icing than the larger aircraft? where they are flying more at what levels they are flying? any thoughts on that? >> some of the airplanes that fly in the lower levels, if you will surface to 20,000 feet, more likely to spend a lot of time at that altitude, certain turboprops are more susceptible to it even though most of them

are more than adequate to handle those conditions but you can't stay in it forever. the first officer, this will sound strange, there has been such a focus on some sterile cockpit violations. that first officer in the airplane said i have never seen icing like this before. we have all learned something, just as apparent, we have learned something. she felt she wasn't prepared. >> you are saying things go wrong, she said this, such an indication there are problems in trading -- training, you don't need more than that. >> knowing what is going on, we talk regularly, you know what i am thinking, you have to voice the things going on in your head so your first officer, your captain, knows what you are

doing, what you are planning to do. that is not a violation of sterile cockpit. that leads us to knowing what is going on. >> maybe someone else can answer, what do you think can be done to train regional pilots sufficiently on how to fly in icing conditions? anyone want to take that? >> we are strongly supportive. the training programs in our airlines are very robust, we are working with the faa, our main line partners, make them as robust as they can possibly be. more training is always good. >> mr. maurer? >> we learned in the ntsb hearings that software is available to take inexperienced pilots and put them with experienced pilots. a mentoring program of some sort

where you have got an experienced pilot who has flown in ice, who understands it, knows what to do. put an inexperienced pilot with that and perhaps we might have a better outcome. that is a hands-on way of learning about these things. only so much can be done in a simulator. let's face it. >> i would think icing would be a harder condition to simulate. maybe i am naive about it but it seems it would be. >> along that line, one other comment. the regional airlines typically are flying less than two our flights. more takeoffs, more landings. as i talk to pilots, this is the critical time of flight, taking off and landing. where should we have the best skill? i am not trying to take anything from the majors, but should we not have the best pilots, the most skilled pilots, flying

these short trips? particularly if we are flying in these altitudes that are more susceptible to ice? that is another issue that pilots don't like to fly in, but they have to. >> thank you very much. >> senator mccasgill. >> i would like to talk a little bit about maintenance. i have worked on this issue since i came to the senate on foreign repair stations, i am sure you are aware that the it has determined on depending on outsourcing maintenance to a large but -- extent. my question to you, mr. cohen, is how much of the outsourced maintenance, 50% of the regional airplane maintenance is being outsourced. what percentage of that outsourcing work is going to f a certified repair stations? >> i am glad you asked that question because it is a good

opportunity to clarify some things in that report that i think the hearing in the other body did not quite get straight. first of all, 1 hundred% of the maintenance is being done in faa certified maintenance operation, otherwise it wouldn't be allowed to fly. number 2, if i can clarify what the study is, the regional airlines outsource less of it overseas than even the mainline carriers do. virtually all of the maintenance by the regional airline members is done here in this country, either by themselves on their own, through an f a certified maintenance operation here in the united states, including our manufacturers which have

locations in the united states and miami, in tennessee and west virginia. that may be a long way of answering your question -- >> i am interested in what you said because i am sure you are aware that it is perfectly acceptable to the faa for the repair work to be done in non certified stations. you are aware of that, right? but you are maintaining today that all of the maintenance work is being done, this is one of the problems we have, repair station does not have to be certified by the faa in order for it to be utilized by the commercial carriers or the regional carriers. are you aware of that? >> senator, again, it is my understanding on the maintenance, that the heavy maintenance we are talking about, heavy maintenance checks

are conducted by, what i assume are faa certified -- >> if you would check that, i would be surprised if that were the fact. we have done a fair amount of work on this issue and there are a large number not just of kick the tires, but serious and substantial maintenance and repair work that is being done by non certified repair stations, both foreign and domestic. i would certainly appreciate you following up on that because one of the issues is why do we have certified repair stations if people are not required to use them? that is what the legislation that senator specter and i have introduced, would require you to use the certified repair

station. i assume getting certified is a good thing. while we not requiring people to use them, and why we spending tax money supporting them? it doesn't make sense, using good old-fashioned common sense. if you would get back to me, they do not know. how much of the maintenance is being done at non certified repair stations. >> same question to you from national carriers. can you give me a figure as to what percentage is being done in certified versus non certify repair stations? >> i do not have that number at hand but i will be happy to provided to you. >> none of this is being outsourced beyond the united states in terms of the regional

carriers. i am confident it is being outsourced be on the united states, the large commercial carriers. does your association have a percentage of that maintenance that is being outsourced? >> it is not with me, i would be happy to provide it. >> it has been a very difficult -- the information is difficult to come by. they have not prioritized looking at this issue. the public does not realize to what extent maintenance has been outsourced. one of the problems is in many of these places there's not alcohol or drug testing. because we don't have as many of them, if somebody has been

outsourced, there are faa inspectors that hand out, really looking over the shoulder. then you travel to indonesia, and if there's ever an faa inspector that shows up. the taxpayers are actually underwriting this outsourcing. as we talked about, there are locations that have been on the state department for terrorist activity where there have been repair stations, it will be helpful as we move forward trying to get these reforms

done. >> i am well familiar with the issue of the inspections. i have written about one of the carrier's to el salvador. and an empty 320 to the united states after having repaired in all salvador, and maintained an issue of dollars and cents. let me go back to a moment ago on icing. i pulled the transcript, the co-pilot has said i have never seen icing conditions, i have never deiced. i don't want to have to experience that, i have never thought i am going to crash. the actual transcript is of a co-pilot that has had minimum

training icing conditions. the training issue has been on the table. what kind of training does someone have in the cockpit to fly in the conditions, if they're flying to buffalo, new york, one would expect you would encounter icing conditions of some sort. come from the state of north dakota. i have been on small airplanes with a lot of buildup on the wings. i have flown in a lot of ice with pilots and others. how much training exists, this specific condition they're likely to encounter. i want to ask about this issue of time in an airplane.

in the buffalo crash, that carrier had training that train their pilots, if that is the case, the first question on my mind, if you have a device called a stick pusher, a device that will automatically move view towards the safety function, and you have never had experience, isn't that a significant deficiency? how could that happen? can you tell us, captain prater? >> every airplane has different safety features, pilots should be trained to the proficiency in each and every one of those. i cannot testify to the conditions on the training of

this individual crew, but i can say more generally that there is a huge cost to training airmen so comes down to dollars and cents. part-time help, training helped, may not want to spend as much money making sure they are aware of each and every facet, training has been shortened over 3 decades as an airline pilot. have we reduced it to below the standards. >> the committee -- this committee was provided with a very detailed information about the training programs which are every bit as robust. one of the things we talked about on monday's call to action

was to look at all of these training issues that have been laid on the table, certainly today and over the last several weeks, and look at whether it is environmental -- additional training on what ever, and in all my years in the airline industry, i have been in it since 1971, i have never seen a decision by any airline regarding safety, it would jeopardize safety because of cost. >> senator johanns was making a reasonable point, if we are flying to difficult conditions, smaller companies, having substantial difficulty, isn't it likely you have substantially less experience, you are paying

lower salaries and so on, does that have an impact on the capability of that airplane to fly in certain circumstances? the airline industry has created for the most part in this country two systems, flying between cities with similar carriers. in the hub and spoke system, in the old days, and northwest airline would serve my state, would fly jet carriers into the city, with 727s, a pilot and flight engineer. i would assume the pilots who bid on those routes -- i understand the longer routes, the bigger planes are going to give the pilots more experience. it seems to me the way this hub

and spoke system has morphed, the network carriers have decided we are going to move these folks on to a commuter carrier, that commuter carrier is going to be out there with smaller planes, it is going to cost us less, they are going to wear our name on a few salons but it is going to cost us a lot less because frankly it can be a carrier that we have 100% ownership but not the same contracts we have. we have pilots with less experience that we can hire for an entry level of $18,000 a year. inevitably, without the meaning a pilot or pilot's ability, you have the potential of a separate standard of capability. i am talking about