>> she will not experience the

joy of a growing child within and raising a loving family as we did. our traditional christmas eve visit to new york city for some last-minute shopping and taking it a mass at st. patrick's cathedral will probably come to when end of this year it will be too painful to make that trip without loren. many of my fellow crash victim family sitting behind me also have similar stories and similar losses. so now it is up to you to make a difference. everyone in this room today and those who were here last wednesday express they have come before you to make the necessary changes in safety. winter is coming. if we do not implement critical safety changes before then and another accident occurs, we can only blame ourselves for losses of those families. i do not wish to shoulder the

burden. and hope and believe that you agree with me for about mr. chairman, ranking member senator demint and all other committee members thank you for your time and i am open to answer any questions. >> thank you very much mr. mauer bright indicated in the last hearing i have some discomfort about a good many things here. reading the transcript of the cockpit recording demonstrated to me a number of errors occurred, a number of deficiencies occurred in the management of the plight. i also said that the young co-pilot and file it perished in that accident as well and they are not here to speak for themselves and they have families that miss them terribly. so i am jeht discomfort third by an ad and yet we have no choice but to

proceed -- proceed aggressively to find out what are the standards year? was this an accident that could have been prevented? how do we prevent future accidents and circumstances like this? let me ask a few questions, amaya understanding we are hiring pilots to put in the cockpit of commercial airlines with 30 or 8090 passengers but we hire some of them for $10 per hour. is that correct? >> mr. chairman the average pay of a regional airline at captain is a $72,000 per year. the average pay of a first officer as eight member airlines is $32,000 that is very comparable to other professions that have lives at

stake, medical assistance. >> but i am asking isn't the case we're hiring hiring pilots in the cockpit and paying them $23,000 per year that is $10 per hour roughly. isn't that the case? if it is then one wonders what is the capability of pilates coming out of school with a good many hours that beat the technical qualifications and get hired $10 an hour and live with their parents in seattle and apply to a duty station all night long? at that salary they are going to rent a hotel to get some sleep? i don't think so. my specific question isn't there is significant issue about experience and funding and salaries at the entry-level on some of these airplanes were we are getting on? the name is the same. we think it is

northwest, continental, delta air it is just a different carrier with a completely different standard of hiring new pilots entering the cockpit. am i ron? >> i think i heard a couple of questions in there and let me try to expand on a couple of things. most importantly compensation and safety are not related. the ntsb has never in all accident investigations ever sighted compensation or pay as a call sold factors are contributing factor to an aircraft accident broke the pay is fair and competitive in a very difficult industry. i am a veteran of and as a captain pointed out is a very difficult industry. said pay and trading that

first time, the opportunity that person comes into, that they are proficient, well-trained, we would not put that person in charge of that airplane, in charge of the crew, the safety of that we would not give that person were not well trained and prepared. >> let me ask do we have a charge? let me ask mr. prater. this chart shows for colgan air but people flying all over the country to get to the duty station. the show's new work and where they're living in order to get to new work to get to a duty station. does that make sense to you mr. prater? you say it is always that way they have to be on their own and get adequate rest but in this case at a co-pilot that flew all night long to get to

her duty station does that make sense? >> it does make sense but i would agree with you that that is some representing the reality of our air transportation system and pilates. however i think we have to take a very close look again at the system that has created this. you cannot open and close domiciles on a regular basis and a transfer flying and lay off pilots at one airline and not give them some ability to either move to their new station or get to work. even if i am based in houston and the company needs me out of new work they will deadhead read to newer can get me to where i need to start the flight. there is a huge responsibility professional aviators take. we do not get into a cockpit believing we will fail that day. every one of these aviators face the whether the same

mother, the same situation, engines fail, we have emergencies, and the pilots to do is. >> but with different levels of skill and experience. do you agree? >> yes. without a doubt. >> i have very limited time. i will stay and asked all of my questions at the end. i do not want to abuse my colleagues but the question of pilot records comity third -- captain prater to cover problem that potential employers should know about a pilots' records? >> i believed the act can be improved but i do think history and performance is necessary and good but don't look at that as the entire story. we are constantly going through training and must meet the standards every month, every week, every year. just when you create an airplane you test it to destruction progress pilots we

are trained to a point* outside of what we can do. we must find our limits. you must push pilots and their training to me able to meet and to succeed but many times that takes a lot of training, more than we are getting today. >> you seem to imply in your testimony there were two standards with respect to commercial aviation one is a network carriers and the other is the regional park could do believe there are two levels? but we have one level of regulation but not one level of safety. >> different levels of enforcement? do you agree? >> mr. chairman, i do agree to the extent that the single standard that the faa has promulgated to which we all must it hear. i do not think there's any question that mainline carriers exceed that 421 base far more often than most.

>> but that which exists in law or rule is only relevant to the extent you have a federal agency that says we will force you and enforce it aggressively. >> bad is correct. >> is that the case now? >> i think we can have greater enforcement and of the committee and faa's juice you can even choose parameters as i said today you can have a local programs required you can use programs on training there are issues a pilot records that can we resolved improve the environment. >> as a seven i started hearing a one to invite the folks who run the carriers to come to the table and we have made invitations and

apparently have not had acceptance to those invitations. we make them fully understanding they will be accepted and have another hearing with the airlines themselves. >> you have our commitment to everyone dad when everyone we will provide. >> senator demint? >> chairman, i appreciate you mentioning specifics about what we can do with trading. what i am not hearing here today are specific ideas are what do we need for change to prevent something like this from happening again? there has got to be things that come to mind that we need to change we have situations of violating rules no sterile cockpit, the pilots themselves violated rules. we need to make sure that that doesn't have been again.

what do we need to do? what to the carriers need to do? what do we need to do from a regulatory perspective and do we need legislation that the regulators carry out? to see what we can do. i would just like starting with you mr. may, what we need our specifics of things that can be done to improve the safety of the crash brings to light are not requiring or not auditing we have so far got a lot of assurances of safety is the concern is that it broke down. i am just looking for some ideas many to know if we need to push regulators to do something different or pass legislation or insist on a carrier to do something they're not doing? i will go with you mr. may.

>> senator, i think i made seven very specific recommendations still in my oral testimony i will recap them for you today. their needs to be a requirement that regional carriers implement programs and i think which captain prater would agree are in use at may 9 levels and would make a market difference i think number three we need to put in a new training standard if you will there is a long ( nprm on training at the faa. it would probably be rise to look at the aviation rules committee and looked hard at the advanced qualification programs if you will that would be developed by mainline carriers could we mentored or

transported to regional characters to improve safety on training. number four to have the faa take a hard look how they better enforce the sterile cockpit rule but there needs to be some kind of monitoring of cockpit tapes on a frequent basis. >> yes. >> at some point* i would expect the 14 wooded knowledge as long as we protect the privacy of the pilots there is a way that can be done. next you need to have a very specific program promulgated by the faa on records so when a carrier goes out to hire an individual pilot her -- they

have access to all pilates records in the same place and format so they can have a complete look at what has gone on there. finally, i think you need to make sure that we have a very close look at the whole process that is used by the faa to regulate 121 and how many issues need to be incorporated or whether or not the standard is fine but it just needs to be the enforcement issue very specific recommendations been a very helpful somehow we need to get that in a joint letter to the faa to make sure we are reviewing those recommendations. the other witnesses, i'd do you agree they need to be added? >> senator demands and members of the committee we

wholeheartedly the points that mr. may pointed out one industry and concurrence on these types of issues so that integrated data base of by the records is congress can direct the faa to do it and immediately so the access to this information is readily available to people as be higher. but better the information we have in the system the safer it will be. >> the other issue underscoring the use of cvr as you talked about in your remarks it is a tragedy that we are here with the issues

that congress, faa's, are learning about are from, it had to be after the tragedy that is a shame. if there is a tool out there that can be used to help prevent accidents about how not to prevent accidents before they have been and we are not even touching it that is a tragedy. >> of like to respond we need to look at the system. the thought that somehow we can monitor cockpit voice recorder and improve the safety or compliance, let us focus on the professionalism and the training of those airmen who do this day in and day out. we're missing something, we're missing something these chairmen have been doing their job. let's not take this accident

and try to say it was caused because pilots were talking in the cockpit. you have to communicate and relay program will not talk about this obviously because it is still under investigation and we're still analyzing. we want to improve but weird you learn to become a professional? from the men and women respect and break the chain and keep it moving and where you get that experience? all of a 7,921st officer is fine with somebody who has only been flying three years. that would not have happened if the airlines would not keep pushing flying around the system. it took me 12 years to make captain that used to be the norm. we went through 12 years or eight years or five years of airline operations now it is much quicker. >> to be clear you object to random reviews of the cockpit recordings just to verify that we're keeping sterile cockpits and keeping rules?

>> i do not object as long as it is done within a program where it can we projected and we learn about safety. if you use it to monitor, you will create a cockpit that may not be as safe. let's not mistake that sterile cockpit means we're focused on flying at critical points out. that is the standard and that is what goes on if it is protected and used as it safety data that we should find a way to make the system safer and that is the shared goal. >> not every company i call on the bank they say this may be audited for quality purposes for you cannot improve what you don't measure i assume that a onetime training scheme will monitor potential problems over the lifetime of a pilot is like assuming the

same thing for eight airplane. i am a little concerned that you consider that a band-aid. do you consider getting the records, keeping the records of pilots over their career, is that a band-aid? >> again are we going to compare apples with apples? what training school did they come out of? you do not want to create a system where it if you go to xyz training school they don't want anybody with nothing on their record or do want them to go to the hardest school where they push you to your limits and push you to a failure but all of these are maneuvers we must me trained and over and over whether emergencies or back to basic flying skills. you do not want to create a system that finds a way of getting around that. do not create a loophole. >> i am over time but can we

allow mr. meier to comment? >> a would just like to remind everybody that when you are sitting in the passenger section of the playing again you are unaware of who was up there on the other side of the doors. is to disclosure too much everything to ask when your life is at hand? another comment, chairman bergen had that charge of their. my commute to work is seven miles. members of the senate i know that you come from pretty far away you have their residence here, some place here. perhaps the airline industry needs to consider providing for that kind of thing if we allow pilots to could be due to these great distances.

i happen to travel probably every other week and it is not uncommon for me to be sitting side by side with pilots who are commuting to their base location. they are tired. i getting conversations with them all the time. those hours don't count toward the critical restrictions. these are things we have to take into account. we learned in our accident of long hours that were taken just getting to work and then you climb on a plane and fly. let's just keep the human element in mind and not be defensive. >> i think there is a response to a question by senator

dorgan and that's spoke to a relatively modest wage that are paid to people. such as the fellow co-pilot with light 34 '07. because he said it is a pay scale that might be applied in other professions but i think the point* was missed because if 70 is not making enough money to take care of themselves or their families that would typically mean a second job or second opportunity to earn some more money is in the cards. as a consequence there is more ever an opportunity for fatigue to prevent individuals operation. so i think that when we talk

about the profession and it may pay $20,000 per year, we're talking about almost almost minimum wage for any job whether a janitor or otherwise like a bank teller. we have to look at these. of the previous hearing that we held on aviation safety, one of the questions i raised is how many times did it is the inability to pass is allowed to come with three strikes and you are out. would anyone here want to go into major surgery, hard to come ahead, whenever and have a position that long to his test five times?

before they squeezed him through the operation and put life in his hands? i don't. there is a point* in time when you say if you can master this in two or three times, then find something else to do. people love to fly. why no lot of pilots ic to in the second seat in small airplanes and flying is a glamorous job, it really is a i do not know with commercial operation when you're sitting in seats to fly back home or otherwise away from home, , etc.. there is a point* in time captain prater that say this is not, the simulators have

replicated emergency situations. >> very much. you really can do a good job of training for emergencies. it does not replicate the fact when you are in an airplane it is three-dimensional of all the forces on use of sometimes you have to go back to the basic airmanship. what's your point* of most airlines the three strikes and you're out is just about the way it works. it is oversimplified but we give the airmen to chances come at a training review board or the company, the industry we may even send out for a physical, psychological exam, fitness for duty, something else going on why that individual basically buy the third time trying to master the same maneuver or airplane and the pilots' jobs are at risk at that point*. >> so this was an oddity that

had the captain of this flight failing by times over a period of years? the records did not go back far enough to dig out the information. >> we have to make sure we are comparing apples with apples. if he had problems in his private pilot's license our commercial pilot license with basic airmanship skills and training but we cannot get away from the fact he met all of them at the faa standards and met the standards that the employer had set as required by the faa. >> is a test of your training -- testing or training the same for a regional pilot as for the major airlines? >> yes it is. >> to the regular airlines

companies, aviation companies, pay as little as $20,000 per year and was someone even alongside the training of a captain in the cockpit? >> senator, as a practical matter the pilots that are hired by the main lines have significantly more seniority on average and paid at a higher level. pay is a function of collective bargaining and generally also conditioned on a number of hours and a number of hours at a particular type of aircraft whether or not they have been a pilot or first officer. there are a number of factors involved with pay but it is effectively the exclusive jurisdiction of collective bargaining and seniority. >> before selling it to use the status of capt., is there a requirement in the regionals that they fly a particular number of hours?

>> basic fdr require 1500 hours of total flight time at the 23 years old but is the basics that is not a lot of time. in many cases pilots to exceed that as they checkout as captain but in rapidly expanding environments it is of a concern but also a concern of how much actual experience, and time is not the only generator. if you flew a be 52 eddie 20 hour mission is of the same amount of training making six or 10 takeoffs and landings per day. time does not cure all. >> excuse me. >> for the record and the average captain and regional has 8500 hours. that is pretty experience with their average first officer is well over 3,000 hours. >> not