be called for to say a captive of an airplane that has a less skilled co-pilot has to have had more experience than the basic experience. that might be a good rule to put into play. if you're going to take someone who is new at the job and considering all the factors, but when you look at what is required of the passenger flown today of major airlines were regionals the passengers are examined so thoroughly to make sure they cannot bring down the airplane. but when i look at the skills, training, reaction ability of a pilot, it is much more casually done.

and i think we can learn from that. not to change the security process but rather to say that the person who was up in front of the airplane has us to really be able to manage all situations. i know it is painful to review this and mr. mauer view do an admirable job when you say let my loss be a lesson for others and i think we have to take that very much to heart. >> thank you. senator? >> mr. cohen how many regional airlines are in operation out there today? how many would that be? as been talked about the term regional airline is more a

greater -- those 31 members carry 90 +% of the passengers and scheduled service. >> how many of those are profitable today? how many are making money? >> mr. chairman, some are privately held, they do not report and i just don't have that information available. >> of those who are not privately-owned can you give that affirmation? >> we would be glad to get it to you and provided to the committee. >> let me understand your business model because as i think that bears some issues. as i understand the cost of the ticket that i would purchase his nazi term and by that regional it is determined

by the carrier they contract with. is that correct? >> for the vast majority of the business operations, yes. >> our revenues determined? is it based on the ticket cost? >> there is a variety of arrangements that are proprietary in nature but it is my general understanding it can be one of a couple that probably the predominant way is now what is called 34 departure -- defeat for departure the regional airline is given a schedule and paid in some fashion the number of flight hours or the number of trips the performance of those or so forth. their regional airlines that are wholly owned subsidiaries of major airlines, that may be

a different relationship. there are some independent line regional airlines and that is a smaller group. there is some business models that actually have all little bit where the ticket price may be split the that is a very small percentage. >> is impacted by the number of people on the plane? if you fly 50 vs. five-year revenues will be better? >> only where the regional carrier would be sharing and the risk of the revenue for the flight. >> but these are proprietary i have never seen one it is my general understanding. >> statistics say how many regionals have gone bankrupt because of course, that is a public events. how many blood that the? >> i have been the president of the regional airline association for over two and a

half years and allow the members i believe too may have gone out of business if i remember. but i can get you the exact information. >> on the pilots themselves, i started out as a young lawyer and had you asked me add 23 are you ready to handle the most complex cases in a courtroom setting a would have said absolutely i have my law degree, my bar certificate, let's go. i was not anywhere near ready. is the regional airline regarded as a training ground for pilots? you go there and pick up some hours and to flying back and forth to where ever and you pick up the hours and then eventually hopefully get to a big carrier and hopefully

eventually go transcontinental? i don't know the next steps. is that the case? >> unfortunately that is what this system has produced and it is not the safest model. >> mr. cohen averages mean nothing to me. when i walk on that airline and i stick my head in the cockpit and say i feel so good the average salary here is what every told me, i would never say that. i want to know they are trained and ready and can handle thunderstorms, a leasing and keep me out of trouble purposely averages don't land anywhere with me and miss the mark completely. >> what is the minimum salary per year that a pilot would we hired to come on board? >> mr. chairman i do

not, senator johanns i do not have the average which i believe we have provided some information i can get you that of the member airlines i can provide that. >> i want you to get that. your averages mean nothing a. >> negative a new pilot would make between 60 and $18,000 per year for a full-time job unless he or she is on reserves. >> doing that kind of commuting? >> i have travelled extensively when i was in the cabinet and i must add that i got tired. >> the poor diet, when they go through all the time changes

how does that compute? if you see somebody that has spent the whole ninth can they literally land in new jersey and get on an airplane and start flying? >> while it is possible it is also true he may have flown that flight across the country, a five -- five hour flight in the middle of the night then be expected to sit around maybe five or six hours and fly the trips why would put it in the terms of is it any more rest will sitting in coach trying to get to work for two hours or driving to when airport for two hours? we have to look at that. obviously the subject of commuting has some focus especially on the first duty day. are you sufficiently rested to do the next 16 hours a duty?

we have to look at the extensive periods. but in this case what also is forgotten is the co-pilot could have flown that trip instead of ridden then be legal to fly that afternoon and fly that track. that is a fact. >> i am out of time so i will come in on this on a very focused way but let's say that i grew up in florida and i get my training in florida and i am used to thunderstorms but i have no idea what icing is about, never flown in and maybe got a little training on it but no experience whatsoever. could a regional hire me to fly a northern route? >> no. that person would we strained extensively in the type of operations that he or she will be flying. >> i would disagree with that

statement from this point*. that pile it has passed minnows for all types of operations or weather and of his or her experience has been specifically in one area or region of the country they could be thrown into the worst weather of the northeast were mountain flying without further training. and we have to talk about specific training at different points. when you move pilots around the system, we must continue the training cycle and i think it is deficient in that area. >> i will wrap up with this very, very quick thought. i asked these questions and i will be very candid about it because i worry that because of economics or whenever or trying to do this on the cheap. and we're hiring pilots at a very low wage i do not know how you live on that salary. and did you know, we were ending up with?

people trying to build hours to move out of the regional system. if that is the case, that is very worrisome. mr. cohen you represent these fine folks so prove to me i am wrong with the burden is on the airlines to prove the safety of our travel. thank you, mr. chairman. >> senator baggage. >> thank you, mr. chairman and mr. mauer thank you for your testimony and as i said in the opening i have experienced tragedy in my family and a plane crash with my father but to a more extreme that the plane was never recovered and it took a tragedy back then to change the rules of requiring locator begins in the planes because of that incident and it was the largest error recovery attempt in the country's history so it seems whenever we do with air

traffic safety it is always a tragedy that moves us to the next stage so i appreciate you being here and i am very, very sympathetic from personal reasons. but as i was listening to the testimony, mr. cohen i feel that you're on nazi and i appreciate you being here but as i listen to you i asked my staff because i know all associations have conferences, meetings, so while you were testifying i said go get me a copy of the last conference which was held in the mid me. it was a four or five day conference but this is two or three months after the significant incident as you described in the regional airline history. but yet when i looked through the conference agenda of four and a half days i see very little mention of safety except the last couple of

days. now i am assuming through the discussion of the conference you had conversations. i know was a former mayor wind katrina disaster happened, we spent one whole conference on it because of the importance of safety in our communities -- communities. so as to talk about the hideous and suggestions come i want to add a think senator johanns said very clearly, it is on you and i can only look what is down in your comments today. also will take a couple steps if you want to comment on the convention that is great but all i'm not going to read the agenda because you know, that was there and we recovered but it seems it should have been made be it was then the agenda on your web site does not show that. is seems like such an important issue. >> to that point* senator, the

reason why are a a was created for the last 34 years is to promote the safety within the industry this 80 directors of the member airlines meet for the entire year links of that conference. that is a meeting at which everything is shared to protect these issues with the faa, with members of the ntsb that are there. it is not a public meetings of that they can share those experiences. you are exactly correct. that is not on the public website. they meet 10 hours per day in a windowless room and i would urge to the next time they meet here, they meet regularly, i would urge members of this committee, you are invited and we would love to have you there. >> we share the outcome of your last conference meetings from that with the committee?

whether it needs to me confidential i am happy to oblige. let me go to another question senator johanns ast regarding the pay rate. i will not debate you. it surprises me that you did not know the beginning salary or a range. do you have or is the association ever done a salary study? i assume they have the analysis and if so can you provide that to the committee? >> senator we will provide you the information of our member carriers what is publicly available and i will push further we have things that can be key proprietary so i would like you to stretch further. the issue on the pay of the compensation pay is not necessarily a driving factor but it is clear to top it has

a former mayor managing over police officers, 300 public safety whenever wanted them too have was a second job, i wanted one job which is to do the safety of the communities we paid them very well. that result was very limited or problems because of that because they did not have to worry about family taking care of them. 12 disagreed and take a simple question as a 22 or 23,000 in alaska small plane regionals and we have some great ones that operate currently but the pace seems to be an important factor to bring quality do not fly to the majors. they keep them for long term

careers. do you honestly think, i am going off of the pilots association, that 22 or 23,000 is adequate for us too have people flying planes that appeared as 1% or 20 or 50. >> two points to that, the pay at virtually every member airline. >> that is not my question. who i do with collective bargaining all the time it is that the right kind of pay to have and should we require minimum setter guaranteed pay levels for pilots and regional planes? this is the question i have last week. >> senator, we believe the industry again is very complex issue we believe fundamentally that the quality of the people that we have flying is good

and we would like to get even better that is one of the reasons we have strongly supported a number of issues that have been discussed today to get a better training there is an investment in is interesting that this committee with is responsible for so much into the next generation, a technology and spending billions of dollars that we believe that there can be some money spent on the human capital on the aviation system and we would strongly support that. >> i am running out of time. let me ask to both of you may be mr. may o.r. captain prater to answer quickly a simple question it is the issue of down time and faa minimums that they currently have been i know each of you mentioned a

minimum standard you think the minimums are too low? pilates for downtime as well as other training and issues do you think they are too low and need to be raised? >> i assume you talk about light duty time? >> yes. >> i think i think they're probably appropriate law. number two we made a commitment at the faa's call to action on monday to enter into a science based study to determine whether or not they are currently appropriate or not there is a proceeding on the altar along flying the faa has done that is science based with plenty of skilled people available to do that ought to incorporate the chairman has raised the issue of commuting i think we ought to incorporate that into the

process and so we would strongly endorsed a process being established to look at flight duty time current standards, how they might defer for regionals, with takeoffs and landings first is -- first as long haul these to be put on the table. >> my time is definitely up so you can be quick. >> we believe there has been enough steady we're ready to move forward and we do believe there is enough science of the record we will make the recommendations directly to the faa and work with the associations to move the process for word. >> can you share that with the committee? >> senator kohl which are. >> thank you for having this hearing. the safety of colgan air brought airline safety back into the public by i can tell you senator begich has a

similar story but for me it was this similarly similar to the senator from minnesota plane it was pilot training and 56 when i hear all of this of underpaid pilots that are tired and not earning enough money it reminds me very much of that. here you have at pilots living far away from the bases leading to commutes and time spent waiting in the airport for another have been questions about fatigue but i have a question of reimbursement for hotel rooms. i know some of the larger airlines pay for hotel cost so the pilots can get sleep before a shift the regional carriers are they doing the same thing? >> when it pilots are on duty the moment they check-in the

hotel cost on duty are paid for 100% by the company if there also receiving a travel three dm at the mainline or regional there is no distinction between three those policies are done between the major airlines and regional airlines. >> anyone else have anything to add? but there is a fair amount of difference but where you were going is the pilot getting adequate rest? the place to get that before they begin their first trip out of whatever domicile they have been assigned and the answer is no. they're not provided by the airlines. >> and so what they do is they fly to start the first trip from summer and there may not be a way to get reimbursed because it is not in between flights? >> that is correct. >> is that the case here?

i know she was spending the day in the airport. >> i seriously doubt in fact, i can say without a doubt they were not given a place to get adequate rest or compensated for the hotel rooms and they could get adequate rest. >> we heard last week regional pilots are more likely to become fatigued because they fly more flights per day rather than one long flight but i'm sure that could happen with major carriers they are doing more takeoffs and landings than one day and they may be more prone to 58. do you think that is true? anyone? >> having spent more erred time 52 than anybody else i can say there are a lot of different ways of lowering your readiness level. the fatigue of a 16 hour

flight is different but just as important as a pilot flying a seven different landings and takeoffs and the mentor, -- middle of winter or summer whether it is different but it adds to the same place but a tired or fatigue pilot is not at peak performance one. >> the issue of fatigue is serious and why we're right at the top of our strategic safety initiatives including the exploration and, this is a lot of new science out there on fatigue the possibility of exploring fatigue testing let's start gathering data and testing people. we have the ability to do that now but we do not currently. we would strongly urge. >> i think we know i have read enough studies that if people don't have enough sleep, and i am not all disputing the

longest for short flights but if they don't have enough sleep because they're sitting in the airport and they have not slept but my before because they do not have enough money to pay for a hotel room i think you have problems. i am glad the administrator past money said he will propose a new rule on pilot rest requirements which i think will be very helpful to acquire one to talk briefly about the de-icing issues because that was clearly an issue here at what the first officer told the pilot i have never seen icing conditions. i have never deice i have never experienced any of that. this is clearly a factor in the crash. or regional aircraft more susceptible to problems with icing fan of the larger aircraft because of where they are flying or at what levels? any thoughts on that? >> certainly some of the airplanes that fly in the lower levels, the surface

1,820,000 feet will be more likely to pick up more i sing some turboprops are more susceptible even though i believe that most of them are more than adequate to handle those conditions, but you cannot stay and never ever. the fact that the first officer, this will sound strange but there has been such a focus on sterile cockpit violations, i am relieved that we know that the first officer in that airplane said i have never seen icing like this before because we have learned something. that is just as apparent, we have learned something she felt she was not prepared. >> you are saying you can hide violations things will go wrong but that she said this is such than syndication there's problems in training you don't need anything more

than back? >> that and sharing in formation between pilots knowing what is going on we talked regularly so you know, what i am thinking. you have to voice what is going on in your head so your first office or are captain knows we were doing or planning to do. that is not a violation of sterile cockpit that leads us to know what is going on between the two. >> what do you think can be done to train their regional parliaments sufficiently on how to fly in icing conditions? anyone? >> senator, we are strongly supporting the training programs that of our airlines are very robust we work with the faa the mainline partners, employees to address to make them as robust as they possibly can be. more training is always good. >> i guess what i would

comment his relearn with the ntsb hearings there is software available to take an experienced and highlands and put them with experienced pilots proposal a mentoring program of some sort will have the experience pilot who has flown an ice and has seen it and understands it knows what to do. to put the inexperienced pilot with that and perhaps we may have a better outcome. that is a hands-on way of learning about these things. there's only so much that can be done in a simulator. >> i think a sing would be harder condition to simulate but maybe i am naive. >> along that line of like to make one other comment. the regional airlines typically fly less than two hour type flights you mentioned more takeoffs and landings and as i have interviewed and talk to pilots this is a critical time of flights taking off and landing

so then where should be have the best skilled? and not try to take anything away from the majors but should we not have the best pilots, the most skilled flying fish short trips? particularly if they fly at these altitudes with more susceptible to i switch it is another issue pilots do not like to flight in it but they have to it. >> thank you, mr. chairman. like to talk about maintenance. i have worked on this issue since i came to the senate on repair stations and i am sure you all are aware the inspector general has determined that regional carriers are dependent on outsourcing means to a large extent to perk up my question is how much of the out