united states of course, it still rolls along. steaming toward its 40th anniversary season. onpbs. one of the things i wanted to talk about, to kick things off tonight, is, the washington angle to "sesame street." the cofounders of children's television workshop, the production nonprofit center that gave birth to "sesame street" were joan ganda cooney and lloyd morissette. they were friends in 1965, when they got together, joan and tim kind's apartment for dinner. and casual friends. joan was working at channel 13 in new york, wnet, the landmark public station, and, she was creating documentaries, and public service television for channel 13.

one of those documentaries was called "a chance at the beginning." and it chronicled an extraordinary program in harlem, where ed carries an psychologists were giving intensive training and teaching to in digit gentleman preschool -- indigent preschool children and the results were remarkable, the kids were learning so much so quickly they were closing a gap that existed at the time between poor kids and kids who had better lives, middle class kids. and the gap was all about their readiness for school, how many skills they had, and concepts they had down, before they got to that first day of kindergarten or first grade. the kids in the ghetto were way behind. and, therefore, when they started public school, were behind the 8 ball. sadly. at the dinner party, lloyd

morrisett who was an experimental psychologist by training, was then working for the carnegie corporation, asked a question, out loud, you know, he had watch his then three-year-old daughter sarah, just a few weeks before on a sunday morning, sit cross-legged in front of the television, around 6:30 in the morning watching the test pattern, just sitting there, watching the test pattern, waiting for the cartoons to come on, at 7:00. and he was startled by that. and he said, what is it about television that would make a child crawl out of bed, at this early hour, and just sit there and watch an indian on a field of geometric shapes and some of you will remember that test pattern and so, at the dinner party he said, do you think

television could do more than just educate? do you think we could ever use it to teach? to promote the lives of little ones watching? and you know, at the time, children's television wasn't so hot. there were some bright spots, and certainly captain kangaroo, was one of them. and, mr. rogers, was in his early years, at that time. and -- but for the most part they were -- it was locally produced cartoon caravans and sort of junk. and that question asked at that dinner party was like a match that ignited sesa"sesame stree. just that one question. joan and lloyd helped to do some

preliminary research to ask educators around the country, and in canada, what they thought of the idea of a show for preschoolers that would try to teach how to count to ten, and how to recognize the shape and sounds of the alphabet letters, and joan ganz cooney came back front trip encouraged by the responses from the educators and psychologists and for the most part thought it was an idea worth trying. well, it was worth trying, if it was worth doing, it was worth doing well. and they set a pretty high funding target for the show. they know -- knew it would take a long time to develop and needed the money to do it well. and they began to look at what sources might be available. and they died decided they would approach the great philanthropies of the country including the carnegie foundation and the ford

foundation, but, also, approach the federal government, the u.s. office of education. and that is where the excerpt begins. and i want to share with you right here in this city when joan and lloyd took a trip to see if they could wrestle some money from the u.s. office of education. and specifically from a man named harold howe who everyone called doc. he was the commissioner of the u.s.-oe. are you ready? okay. you can't discuss what transpired at the united states office of education on the final day of june, 1967, without using that vivid, if slightly impolite

noun, balls. the u.s. -- usoe's commissioner had them, a civil servant known from childhood as doc, he had a roomful of -- slew a roomful of bureaucratic dragons and called the meeting weeks after receiving a bulky parcel from his old friend, lloyd morisette, a parcel that contained his feasibility study for "sesame street" which he devoured. he was so in tareked by its argument -- intrigued by its argument and aims that he phoned morisette right away to ask that he come to washington with the cooney dame. and cooney recalled that howe said to morrisett, dead i don't think we have the money to do that but come down and we'll sit around the table with the department and the research people and the preschool

education people. and doc howe was a man of action, conviction, and concern for his fellow man and traits seemingly passed genetically, born in hartford, connecticut in 1918, he was the son of the reverend arthur howe, a dartmouth college professor, who had become president of hampton institute in virginia. now hampton university. reverend howe's father in law, samuel chapman armstrong was a union general who commanded black troops in the civil war and later founded hampton as a trade school for freed slaves. doc spent a part of his up bringing as a young white man on that traditionally black campus. the rest of it, near dartmouth's campus in hanover, new jersey. a northern new englander by

transplantation, he hiked in new hampshire's mountains, fished for trout and skated on local ponds. at just a shade taller than 6 feet with a sinewy build and springy legs he never stood still for too long in one place, a blur on the ice rink, the left handed winger skated with the varsity at yale and left new haven in 1940 with a history degree and briefly taught at a private school. during and after world war ii, he skippered a mine sweep are in the pacific. back in the states, howe earned a master's degree in history from columbia university, and upon graduation, joined the faculty of the then boys-only elite boarding school, phillips academy in andover, massachusetts, better known as andover. howe taught history, and coached hockey and later completed post-graduate work at harvard, and the university of cincinnati, education administration jobs, beckoned

thereafter and he served as principal at schools -- andover, cincinnati and newton before being named school superintendent in scarsdale, new york, westchester county and it was there, carnegie president john gardener, whose children attended scarsdale schools, came to know the superintendent and his wife, priscilla lam-howe, known as sibby and it was morrisett who recommended howe for the institute of north carolina an integrated men's boarding academy for promising high school students in that stated and howe's next move catapulted him to the national stage in washington, where gardener was a key figure, and president lyndon johnson's great society programs. that wave of social change intended to reduce poverty, and enhance educational

opportunities, promote equality, safeguard the environment, and rebuild cities. on january 27th, 1965, johnson swore in gardener, as secretary of health, education and welfare. and at 66, gardener convinced lbj that howe was ready to fill the role of usoe commissioner though he had no experience as a political appointee. such as the respect between the president and his hew secretary, that lbj gave his blessing. quote, what the president didn't know at the start was how seriously my father viewed brown versus board of education, said howe's daughter. kathy short. after all, my father was around black people all his young life, at hampton. indeed, during howe's tem of service, he became -- term of

service he became johnson's steely champion of school desegregation and a target for the wrath of southern legislators who at alternate referred to him as the cam sar of -- commissar of education and the u.s. commissioner of integration. under the provisions of the civil rights act of 1964, howe withheld billions in aid to local schools where minimum integration goals had not been achieved. in response, a house resolution dated march 13th, 1967, resolved that howe should, quote, resign or be replaced, unquote. howe barely blinked. june 30th, 1967, howe summoned representatives from the children's bureau of research and the bureau of elementary and secondary education, to discuss the merits of that preschool television proposal. joel sugarman, then associate

director of head start, was unable to attend, but sent a favorable note about the proposal to howe. this visit to washington was the first major presentation before potential funder by the team of morrisett, cooney and carnegie's staff member, who was on hand to elaborate on the proposal and take questions. they encountered frost from the moment they crossed the threshold. quote, i have to say the attitude around the table was highly negative. and you can understand why. morrisett said years later, all of these people had their own programs, their money was going to things that they were interested in. they were essentially a couple of outsiders, coming in with an expensive idea. and, furthermore, it was television and they weren't doing anything in television.

it was to say the least, discouraging to encounter a roomful of men with their arms folded, the body language favored by the peeved, not the persuaded. but, morrisetet, cooney and finberg, calmly and confidently carried on with an occasionallial glance toward the commissioner. we were true believers, he said, we talked about the research background and the need. when it came time for questions, the attendees were sour and surgic surly, until howe stepped up, i want to know where each man stands on this proposal, he demanded, narrowing his eyes and can vaned the room and the refrain was consistent, we don't have money for this. howe went silent, and slowly scanning the table, and well,

then, he said the ayes have it! we'll do it! the end. he paid no heed to the incredulous stares he faced from the naysayers. as commissioner, howe out ranked them and he knew it. it was howe on that day, here in washington, that really made the first big step forward for "sesame street" and, ultimately, the office of education came up with $4 million for this project. another 4 came from carnegie and the ford foundation and the new -- then new corporation for public broadcasting. now, math is not my best subject in school and i can't tell you what 8 million is in 2009 dollars but i can tell you,

because i was a teenager back in the '60s, that $8 million was a lot of bucks. especially for a television show that didn't have a network. that didn't have a concept. that didn't have a cast or a set or a producer or -- nothing. what a daring move. what a gamble. and they were betting on this woman, joan ganz cooney, who, a, didn't have children, and, b, had just a -- undergraduate degree in education from the university of arizona, and, never spent one day -- not one day, in children's television. when it came time to choose the leader of the organization, called "children's television workshop" she almost didn't get the job. not because she was unworthy but because she was female.

but, her husband, who was maybe a proto-feminist in his own way, suggested to her, you tell them you are not available for the number 2 job. and she did. and she got the number one job. and she went onto lead, create, and lead this organization, ctw, that but 15 months of work together, to create "sesame street" and that convened an extraordinary series of seminars. over the summer of 1968, at harvard and in new york. bringing together some of the greatest minds from campuses across the country. and, arists and people like chuck jones, the great director, warner brothers cartoons. and maurice sendac, the great author and illustrator and they got together to try and create a

curriculum for the tv show. think about that for a minute. children's television up to that point was mostly about, can a cartoon cat out wit a cartoon mouse and here you have $8 million riding on this show, with a group of eggheads, working side by side, with a group of professional television producers, a very strange marriage to say the least. but, the two sides really got to respect each other. and from that they did create a curriculum. and they did create a plan to use research to build the show. little focus groups of preschoolers. and to use research after the show aired, to measure the efficacy of the teaching

efforts. it was in every sense an experiment. and joan ganz cooney was the great master behind that experiment. and she gets a lot of credit for "sesame street" and it is owed her. but, she would tell you, it wasn't her alone. not at all. it was an incredible ensemble. a confluence of genius. she hired the very best people she could find. and she had a great eye for talent. and she had enough sense to let them do their jobs, and get out of the way. one of those people was a producer for captain kangaroo, in fact all of the founding producers had a term of service at captain kangaroo but the one i'm thinking of specifically was a man named john stone.

and if you read "street gang" i think you will find that john stone is the very heart of the book. john gave sesame street its soul. and hebrew the word is noshumah and he's this one who had the idea to create a set that would look like an urban neighborhood. with a stoop, and a general store, with a proprietor who looked and sounded like that jewish guy who in the 1960s, had the shop with the soda fountain and the candy and the stack of newspapers, outside, and, you know, he wasn't looking,s you just put your 25 cents down and left it on the stack of newspapers and that was fine. and that was mr. hooper's store. and john stone had this idea to bring in a friend of his, named

jim henson, who he really respected. and liked and worked on a special together, called "hey, cinderella." and, the founding producers said, no, if we are going to have puppets we'll have jim henson and if we can't have him we will not have puppets, pretty great idea. and because, when jim henson stepped in, as they were developing the show, that is when this magic really began to happen. because the first test shows that were shot in the summer of 1969, as they were putting together the live action cast, bombed. big! they just -- children rejected them. and the researchers said, well, you can't have these puppets populating a street with real people, you can't commingle reality and fantasy and that is not going to work but jon knew it would work, because, on captain kangaroo, bob keeshan

was the star and captain kangaroo interacted with bunny rabbit, the puppet, every day and mr. moose, and dancing bear. and he knew if the material was written well, and if the puppet ears performed -- puppeteers performed well, they would accepted that and in came jim henson and had an idea that he had on a sketch pad for years, a oning--- a walk-around puppet,y an 8 foot bid and he drew him as an ugly-duckling bird and wanted that bird to be a kind of a country bumpkin, and if you purchased the "sesame street" old school box set, and watch the first episode you will see, that big bird was this kind of dunce and he would bang his head on the door frame and really, he really was an idiot.

but, not for long. because carol spinning, who was inside that costume, really believed that there was nowhere for that character to go, there was no growth, and he and the writers began to see that you could recast, you could rethink what big bird could be. and what they came up with, after redesigning the character and making him so much more beautiful with all of the yellow plume madge was that he would be the embodiment of a six-year-old child, inquisitive six-year-old child and knew some things but not all things but who would be the voice of the child, watching the show and asking the questions. and jim also had developed this other puppet that grew out of those seminars at harvard and new york and one of the psychologists said it would be a really good thing if we could create a character for the show

who was sort of involved in nondestructive deviance, a recalcitrant or naysayer, to demonstrate to children not everybody is sweet, and gets along with everybody, and not everybody agrees. therefore, oscar was born. and, you know, i say in the book, originally oscar was going to be a character that kind of peeked up from a manhole cover on the street every once in a while and came down and then they had the wonderful idea, to have him populate a trash can on "sesame street." and, of course, the live action cast, came together, and an extraordinary ensemble of actors, and grew in the early '70s, to bring on the -- such actors as northern calloway and sonia monsanto and emelio delgado as david, and maria and

luis and, the show came to full flower, in the 1970s, and sesame street was iconic, even before the time that the -- -- big bird ended up on the cover of "time" magazine in 1970, just five years after the dinner part, when lloyd morrisett asked, do you think television can teach? i'd like to entertain your questions. and i'm sure you have them. [applause]. >> thank you. >> you look like sonia monsanto. sonia, ladies and gentlemen, maria from sesame street. [applause]. >> come on, who has questions? yes? >> "sesame street" old school dvds and i haven't seen them, it

has been a long time since i have seen the show, but, i remember reading that there was sort of this disclaimer, being released for adult viewers and video collectors and they weren't really -- >> tribute to the kids. >> and, i haven't really seen a satisfactory explanation, i read that like one of the segment showed cookie monster smoking a pipe or eating a pipe or something... >> yes, as allister cookie, host of monster-piece theater. yes! >> it was just too great for today's kids and i wonder -- >> they can't handle it. >> and i wondered what your thoughts were on that and if that is the reason why the disclaimer was on there and what your opinion is of that, and i mean, it seems sort of... >> i think they are being ultra careful and i think they were acknowledging that some things

that were on the show, in the early 1970s, were so different from the way things are now. and i'll give you an example. in the opening filmed -- film -- the theme song runs over the title, in the first year, it is a little girl, sliding down the playground slide and you see her underwear. well, we -- that would not happen in 2009. and in 1969, it seemed charming. to the producers, who put the fill segment together and so, you know, times do change, and attitudes do change, and i think they were being very careful, and -- but i also think that any child who would sit down and watch one of those great episodes on the box set would enjoy it thoroughly. and it would be fun, i think, for parents to watch, because you really get to see the evolution of the characters and they aren't born fully formed,

the characters evolve. and, they evolve, because you write for them and you write well for them, and you bring in performers who, you know, create an interior life for those characters. and give them nuance. and it doesn't happen overnight. as they -- as richard staring, ringo starr once said, time takes time. and that is so true, with the "muppets." i think the only character on "sesame street" that maybe sprang to life almost immediately was grover. almost from the moment that he landed on frank oz's hand, he had those wonderful attributes that we attribute to grover and my view, grover is sort of the patron saint of second-born children, i love grover this most, as a second-born child because i see myself in him, you know, grover is that little character who has an older

brother, whose parents took 150,000 pictures of him, and took five of his -- of his brother and five of him, you know and grover, hello, it's me! you know, and he's -- he tries, so desperately and he's indefatigueable and unsinkable and working at a waiter at charlie's, he screws up all the time trying to bring fat blue his dinner but it doesn't get him down and he goes back to the kitchen and tries again and so, you know, frank oz gave grover his soul, and his mannerisms and his in particular, diction and he doesn't uses contractions and he won't say can't, he says, grover cannot -- sounds like yoda, too. and the other characters, really grew, better a-- bert and ernie

grew and their relationship grew and that was absolutely a projection of the friendship between jim henson and frank oz. the relationship of ernie, the mischief fuss one to bert, the square, careful one. >> before you start work on this book, how familiar were you with other work of jim henson in particular, and, you know, the people around him, i was wondering, how did your opinion change as you were finding out more about him, at least on sesame street. >> okay. well, one of the reasons i did the book is because i have been a muppet fan since childhood. and i lived in a part of the world in new england, where jim's coffee commercials ran, for la terrain coffee and here in washington it was for will kin's coffee and he created blackout sketches with puppet characters and often, the punch line would be, one of them would be, blown away by a canon.

one of the characters said, do you drink will kin's coffee, and he said, no, and he'd kill him! i love that wonderful anarchy, that was the "muppets." and you know, certainly was a fan of rolf on jimmie dean and an early fan of kermit, and i loved it, when jim henson appeared on "the ed sullivan show" an ed sullivan would butcher jim henson's name, every time and never said his name righted and hello, jim harrison -- what? it is jim henson! anyway, so, i loved the work of the "muppets," you know? and my respect for jim henson is higher than it was going into the project, and it was already very high. i guess it went up because i learned how generous he was to his employees, what a great boss he was. how he shared the wealth.

how it painted him to fire someone and he'd be in knots and had somebody else do it and he couldn't let people go and how he sort of lived to laugh in a way that his best moments when he would be just fractured by something that would happen on the set and he'd laugh so hard we would cry. so i -- one of the great challenges of writing this book is that so many of the central characters are no longer with us, including a core group of patriarchs of sesame street, all of them, who, strangely had first names beginning with "j" died young. questions in yes, ma'am. >> talk about snuffle ophafug,

when i watched him he was still an imaginary friend and became not imaginary any more and i heard a couple of stories why that happened and i would like to -- hear the real story. >> the real story is simple. you know, snuffy was big bird's imaginary friend, although, some people did see him, buffy st. marie saw snuffleupagus and i think a few others. but, there time a time in our cultural history when we became so aware of child abuse, in daycare centers, and how the importance of really listening to what children had to say, and you know, especially if they were telling you what might seem like a wild tale, sometimes, unfortunately, those wild tales were true, and, the producers at sesame street decided maybe it wasn't such a hot idea to have

this character who you know, big bird would talk about and they would go, yeah, yeah, big bird, snuffleup pagas, right, and they were not listening to him and believing him and thought it would be better if they found a way to let snf the cast become e of snuffleup pagas and it is one of the funniest episodes on "sesame street," because phil donahue was on the show that day and he did it as a phil donahue show walk around with it his wireless mic and interviewing people about snuffleupagas as if he were big foot, like so many things in the history of "sesame street" they did it with a smile and thought fully, and did it after what is called a curriculum bath where, they will bring in researchers to talk about it, to particular topics, to give the writers a sense, a

grounding, educational theory -- in educational theory and sonia has grown, i don't think only from being a cast member of "sesame street," she has also become you a writer for "sesame street" and is one of the people who has been influenced by researchers through the years. and, it is a remarkable process. >> yes? >> back to the meeting in washington. why do you think harold howe was so ready to commit money to this untested idea? you explained his character. >> i think he trusted his gut. i think people were so concerned at that point, about our ignoring of preschoolers. it was a time when, you know, research was emerging about their capabilities, and how much they could learn, i make you a point in the book of talking about the age of nursery school, when, preschool children were not given very much credit for

being as smart as they are. and, they weren't very challenged back then. and as we all know, now, man, maybe we have gone too far, i don't know, but, preschool children can learn a lot and it was also during a time when more women were getting into the workforce, and there was more need for preschool and more need for daycare and so, you know, it is sort of, it was a very -- a revolutionary period, and it was an evolutionary period, but, it was a revolution, in preschool education. during the 1960s. so, sesame street was a part of that, an outgrowth of that and in many ways, a kind of a video head start. in many ways. yes? >> how independent are the foreign versions and how much overlap is there, do they share characters, are they developed on their own. >> they are developed on air own, with advise zors from --

consultants from the workshop, and they very much reflect the local culture, and take on issues of importance to local population. and i think they all are tuneful, all use music. and they all are -- in one way or another, all have a curriculum they try to superimpose over the show to -- they have educational goals and objectives. but, they are different. >> can they do something that offends -- >> oh, yeah, the germans do a good job of that, they did a lot of things that offended the sense abilities of others in other countries and they had to do what they have to do. they -- the german version had

sex education. yes? >> how important to the success of the show do you think is the fact that a lot of the material was aimed at parents, not just the children, but also, there was entertainment value for the parents, there were some things that were sort of at their level. >> critically important, you know, they created what they called the bimodal audience and wanted to hook in the children, with a great show, and they wanted to hook in the apparently, so the parent would sit or the grandparent or the baby sitter or the sibling would sit with the child and be entertained, therefore, that invited some of the greatest musicians, and arists of our time, to come visit "sesame street," i mean, when you look the at the list of all-time celebrity guests who have been at "sesame street" it constitutes the most remarkable alumni association in show business history. it is yo-yo ma, yitzhak

pearlman, it is ray charles, johnnie cash. it is rem, billie joel. it is feist, amazing, the variety of performer that visited "sesame street" and, yeah, the celebrities were there to keep the parent interested. but, they also did such a smart job of writing pair readies for the show that worked at the adult level and also, worked for children, i think, specifically, of the wonderful beatles parody, letter b to the tune of the beatles, sort of, "let it be." and you know, we got it and made us smile and you know, the children enjoyed it for its own merits because there were four little beetle puppets singing about the letter "b" and it is

always about great writing and always starts on the page, for "sesame street" and then you have to have great performance, married to great writing. and i -- sonya was -- sonia was in a wonderful segment, called "dancing with elephants" a parody of dancing with the stars and it was great and last year had a segment called meal or no meal! [laughter]. >> more questions? yes? >> whatever happened to the first two... i seem to recall there were two earlier in the show. [inaudible] 197 of, i believe. >> the first gordon, was matt robinson who got his start i believe in television, in the city. and in philadelphia.

matt was hired to be a producer and writer, for "sesame street." very -- just a fascinating guy. and, they were searching and searching and searching to find this character, gordon. at so many -- had so many actors come in and try for the part and jon said, you know, we need somebody like matt. and finally, after saying that so many times, the -- they tried to convince matt to be the first gordon. and he did it reluctantly. he also did it magnificently and he was really, really good. but -- and he was comfortable in the the studio. but, not comfortable with that kind of fame outside of the studio. he really wanted to be a writer. and a producer. and didn't want to be talent and so -- and went on to do famously as a writer and i think head writer for "the cosby show" and i know

he was on the writing staff and another actor played gordon for a brief period of time and in came this incredible guy, rosco ornan who had acting chops and really did great things in the theater and he was part of this revolutionary theater group that barnstormed the south, an all-black theater group that did these wonderful inspirational works, you know going from town-to-town, and he came in, and just immediately, the role of gordon kind of like as -- it just grew, so beautifully, and, you know, he and -- gore dan and susan are the longest -- gordon and susan are the longest intact black marriage in the history of television. think about it. there are no other characters, the nuclear family, with their son, miles, and -- in the history of television, long

before the huxtables there was gordon and susan. >> looking at the history of history of public television, corporation for public broadcasting, as a whole, how important was -- i guess is "sesame street"? i am just thinking, without it, i'm wondering, if it would have survived and thrived as it has. i mean, particularly even talking about public funding and congressional funding. >> yeah, i think "sesame street" made pbs, frankly, and here's why. in a lot of markets, including washington, but also detroit, and los angeles, beginning pbs was on uhf channels that were foreign to most people and hard to tune in on some sets.

andpbs was not getting a the lot of press and people didn't know where it was on the dial until "sesame street" came along and it was such a sensation everybody needed to know where the local pbs outlet was, so i mean, i think it gave pbs its legs and gave it its identity, and ever since that time, i think pbs has been a very safe haven for children and i think they can to do a very, very good job in providing, especially for preschoolers, an array of shows, that are -- parents always asked me when i was family television columnist at "t.v. guide," what can i let my child watch while i'm doing the dishes and i would always say you are safe turning to the pbs kids line-up and don't like the idea of tv being a baby sitter but if you watch something it is a safe bet it will be okay on pbs. so i hope that answers your question. i think -- >> maybe i -- how much funding

did they get after you mentioned what they were receiving initially, what happened later on, they didn't need it i guess from -- >> oh, the opposite. no. in the early '70s, they were very much in danger of going out of business, "sesame street" was because the federal money and the philanthropic money dried up and they needed to find a way to create a revenue stream and that is when they started to use licensing and marching of the muppet characters, without that licensing and marching those books and records and ultimately, you know, the clothes and the bed sheets and everything else, "sesame street" would not have survived. >> i think it has been said kermit best embodied jim henson's own personality and soul and just sort of self-awareness. but i always have been intrigued by the fact it sort of started with the "sesame street" characters, grover and oscar and

big bird and snuffy. but, then, later came the sort of second class of muppet characters, kermit and miss piggy, fozzie bear, et al. can you talk about how henson and company came to the, you know, let's create a new class of characters, are there similarities that you can draw back to, personalities, similarities you can draw back to the original "sesame street" characters, does miss piggy represent a more evolved big bird, something zany like that, but always was the core "sesame street" and then came the muppet show crowd, a totally different class. >> okay. okay way back, when jim henson joined "sesame street" in 1969 and long before that, jim henson had an idea for a variety show, starting puppets. and had sketches of it in his sketch book and he talked to a lot of people about it and, in fact, on the day that carol

spinney interviewed for big bird and oscar jim told him about the idea for a network show involving a cast of "muppets" and the show was in development in his head for a very, very long time and it became sort of like english dance hall comedy, came as a result of all of the tv networks in the united states turning down the muppet show. and do you remember that all gave it the thumbs down, and you know, it went into syndication, and became the world's most successful syndicated tell vicious program. and he created another universe of muppet characters, kermit is the only one that has a froggy foot in both worlds, right, he was part of sesame street and of course the host and the grand master of the muppet show, and, the star of many of the films.

the only thing i can tell you is that to know the men and women who worked for jim henson, and to understand how talented they are, how hard they work, how in telling gentleman they are -- intelligent they are is to understand where the characters spring from, they spring from their imagination and also spring from their guts and their insides and are always a projection of something and i don't know, other than vanity i'm not sure i know what miss piggy is supposed to be. but, i do know that it is fascinating that the same performer who did square as a hat box bert who collects paper clips and fancies pigeons is miss piggy. and the same performer who does this green grouch that pops up

out of a can and insults everybody, to this sweet big bird. so, it is acting is what it is, great talent. and i have to say that it was a singular joy to get to meet the men and women behind the "muppets." >> you mentioned curriculum, a few times and i'm curious, did they plan it like a school year, and were there classes an episodes -- >> they had an arc for the entire season and goals for the entire season, and sonia, can you talk about that for a moment. >> i think that we have a lot of seminars and a lot lof indicators would come in, and let's say, the producers thought we should do something on race relations. that would come from show. and they would bring in a lot of expert people who might

enlighten us about how we could teach children to be more ac set upping and -- accepting and tol ranted of each other and -- tolerant of each other and the curriculum would come out of that, you know? an educator would say the child should know that all people have to eat. and then we would sort of turn that into a funny way of -- take that notion, and figure out a way of writing it into a -- in a funny manner. >> and who was who said cookies are just a sometimes food? >> right, that became a take off from -- everybody was upset cookie monster was just eating cookies and somebody wrote a tape off of the song from porgy and bess, and called it, a cookie is a sometimes thing! [laughter]. >> and it's not true that cookie gave up his cookie jones, he still loves cookie, he just

mixes in a salad every once in a while, huh? probably good. questions. >> i wonder if you would address this multiculturalism of the snow and someone who grew up with captain kangaroo and the three stooges and going from that to now, dora the explorer and diego, which are bilingual to me it was the revolutionary thing about sesame street and giving a glimpse of urban life to kids growing up in the white suburbs. >> was it ever and it was gutsy to have an integrated cast in 1969, just having the children on the show of mixed race was enough to make the state of mississippi decide not to air sesame street haiti beginning. -- at the beginning because they didn't want to show where black children and white children played together and right from the start joan ganz cooney said, i wanted a mixed race cast. i want women and men and i don't

want any one actor to own this show. i don't want the big host. because, i don't want anybody sort of taking over the show. i want everyone to be on equal the footing. and that is exactly what happened. you know, they brought in the ensemble of actors, and -- new york actors for the most part, and created roles for them, and suspectations for them, and just as the -- expectations for them and the roles of the identities of the "muppets" grew, so, too, did the lives of the characters of the live action cast and sonia is a great example of that, because almost all of the life-cycle events one can experience in your adult life were mirrored by your character. she... >> i was a feminist. and i was a construction worker.

and i fell in love, and got married, and had a baby. >> yes. yes. and for a while, your own baby was on "sesame street." >> right. right. >> and, those who read the book will know that there is a really long passage about the marriage of luis and maria. on "sesame street" which i think is really one of the high points in the 40 year history of the series and i can't tell you how many times i went to youtube to watch it over and over again. anybody, who has not had a chance to ask a question? >>... i don't know if it is the electric company or "sesame street," you remember the section, that one of these things doesn't belong, can you guess which one is not like the other. >> that is "sesame street." >> tell this is meaning of that, and we talked about the meaning behind that and it sounds more discriminatory than -- as a kid we -- >> no, no, no, no!

on the -- children need to concern if you have a quarter and a dime, and a nickel and a chick in the chicken doesn't belong. and, that is an important educational tool, goal. so, and, set to music, by i think joe rapozo wrote, "one of these things is not like the other." yes, he did and so many cases took the educational goals and concepts and set them to music and in -- with jingles that stick in our head, last night i talked about 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10...♪ right? okay. you think jim -- thank jim henson for that, he created the animation and that was his idea. and grace slick actually gave rois voice to some of those early animations on "sesame street." yeah! who else has a question?

yes? >> i remember from the early days, that they used to have musical interludz, just cover songs, covers of -- >> they did, automotive show tunes. >> was that strictly for entertainment? or was there some educational -- >> i don't think there was any educational value to susan singing "i enjoy being a girl." that show tune, but, it certainly made feminists howl and interestingly enough, the character of susan after the first year, she got a job and became like a public nurse, because a lot of the female viewers said, hey, look, you know, why can't we have her be a working mom, you know, working wife, why does she have to be home, literally, baking cookies, which is what she does in the first episode of "sesame

street," she offers a new child to the neighborhood, some cookies and milk. so susan got a job. at you a time when a lot of other susans were getting jobs. in the united states. anybody else? questions? yes? >> how did they determine the curriculum or the goals, were having the desired effect on children, did they do studies. >> yes. they did research and very serious research after the season was over, starting with season one, and ever since, and it is the most researched show in the history of television. mounds of research exists about "sesame street," created by sesame workshop itself and also done on campuses throughout the united states. so much so that it -- the results of the major studies are with in a bound book called "g is for growing" a wonderful book

that summarizes all of the research done about "sesame street."" g is for growing." yes? >> you mentioned earlier, as far as the way that the culture as a whole didn't properly give their do respect to preschoolers, and i was just curious, particularly with your background in "t.v. guide," how do you view media publications, their coverage of "sesame street"? did they get their due respect, do you think? >> oh, well, listen at the beginning, "sesame street" was the darling of every newspaper in -- and magazine in kristen dom, i -- cristendom, what paper didn't write glowing things about "sesame street" but in our culture we love to see thinz things rise and then take a shot at it when it does and there was lots and lots and lots and lots of criticism about "sesame street" and a researcher in

canada thought the quick pace of the show was leading to kids getting epilepsy. and of course there are a lot of people who think mtv came about as a result of "sesame street," the mtv generation with the fascination for -- with, quick video and alleged short attention spans, which isn't true, i don't think, was a result of "sesame street" and i think, is hooey -- hokum and hooey. anyone else. >> one more question. >> i was wondering, do you think outside "sesame street," do you think children's programming is better? >> i'm so glad you asked that. i want to say, that this is the golden age of preschool television. there has never been, never been a time in our cultural history when there has been so much great content for kids. and hats off to nickelodeon for creating so many great shows. hats off to the disney channel,

to discovery kids. you know, it makes me wish i was four again! listen, thank you very very, much for this wonderful reception and thank you for considering reading "street gang" which really was, a labor of love. thanks. [applause]:

>> which didn't join the union until the revolution was over, and it's a fascinating look not just about a small state and its governance, but about the revolution as a whole told through the eyes of a state that wasn't really sure it was a state. >> to see more summer reading lists and other program information, visit our web site at booktv.org. >> you've been watching become become -- been watching booktv on c-span2.