at 3 going into the 9th inning. amber theoharis standing by with brian bass. >> brian, first of all, just to walk away as the team with that kind of a win going into the all-star break when some people are shutting it down. >> we don't give up. we're going out there playing nine, in some cases 10, 11, 12. we feel if we can keep our team in the game, that we're going to score runs. it's fun to watch these guys. >> going out there and in the 11th inning, you have the error, the dropped ball in the run down. at that point you're thinking i should have had two outs. as a reliever, i guess, you've got to get the next man. >> you stop, take a deep breath, walk around the mound. wig came over and said, hey, forget about that. just go out there and finish the at-bat. >> some key strikeouts, the overbay strikeout, you have to give it to matt wieters stopping that ball. >> i knew he was going to stop

it. he was solid back there. >> melvin mora, the key play at third base that rod barajas hit. >> that's a tough play. give it to him. he got in front of it. i've seen him block it up, it was a great play. >> coming out tomorrow, we'll have a chance to win the series. how good would that be just going into the all-star break? >> that's good, get a win tomorrow and go enjoy a couple days off and get back at it in chicago. >> thanks a lot, brian. >> no problem. when you look back, rick, at this game, with brian bass, the one thing that stands out, he pitched two innings out of the six that the bullpen pitched, but it seems like when he comes into a tie game, it seems like he's been doing a better job. >> he has. he had a little bump in the road there last week. he didn't pitch too well in that one ballgame in anaheim. he's been doing a good job ever since the third outing of this season. i think the thing that sticks out to me most is his slider

has been so sharp. nobody can look for it and still hit it because it is that sharp. you saw that one pitch he made to lyle overbay that really presented itself at strike three. then short hopped the catcher in the dirt. that tells you how good the delivery is and how quick the break is right there. overbay kind of had a three quarters swing at it. to get that strikeout with the man on third base and less than two outs and that's where he won the ballgame. >> the bullpen pitches six. the orioles beat the toronto blue jays 4-3 in 12. here's the major league scoreboard. the los angeles angels defeated the yankees 14-8. alex rodriguez hit two home runs. the oakland a's defeated tampa

bay 7-2. cleveland over detroit 5-4. texas and seattle, they're 1-1 in the fourth inning. let's take a look at utah street one more time. male announcer: the chicken is tender, juicy, and lightly breaded. the sauce is a mouthwatering blend of sweet & spicy. every bite delivers a kick of asian chilies, real red pepper flakes, and a hint of garlic. it's about as far as it gets from fast food. and that's why you get it at wendy's. female announcer: introducing sweet & spicy asian chicken. one of three new chicken temptations from wendy's. it's waaaay better than fast food. it's wendy's. ah, just installed fios in the whole building. now everyone has the fastest upload speeds. and we're giving them a mini netbook. well, i'm sticking with cable. so's ted.

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 rich hill pitches six, he allows two runs. >> this start for you, you didn't expect to have it. your last minute filled in there. but just to get that start before the all-star break, after they had moved you into the bullpen. do you feel like it just gave you some confidence and showed that you belong in the rotation? >> well, i mean, i felt like i was throwing the ball well previously. i thought i threw well in anaheim. just some pitches here and there that didn't, like i said, you make some pitches, good pitches and they don't go your way or bad pitches. but, yeah, it was definitely nice to get out there and throw

well. >> so confidence was never the issue, but to get the ruts after making those good pitches today. >> it's not the confidence. i know i can go out there and pitch and get guys out at this level and have a high rate of success. it's just when i look back on it, it's been, this is a year in progress where i missed the whole season in 2008 pretty much, and coming back here, it's just writing to hit your stride now. i feel like i'm getting into it. >> thank a lot, rich. >> give rich hill some credit, the first three innings he only threw 33 pitches. two starts ago he pitched 95 pitches so what a difference two starts makes. >> it really does when you can throw something over other than his curveball. he hit the corners with it, he kept it down. he had a very good change of speeds with his change-up. he had everything working for him tonight and if he continues to work like that, i don't think there's going to be any question in anybody ipse mind whether he should be in this rotation or not.

you need left-handers. >> the orioles try take two out of three, game time tomorrow 1:30. it will be bradberg goes for the orioles. >> bergesen is pitching hot for the order. hope he can get that win going into the all-star break. he'd looking for all you guys throughout that want the enunciation, he's looking for his first win of the season. >> it's going to be an interesting afternoon. it will be a 1:00 start, for our pregame show, adam jones will be playing in his last game before going to st. louis for the all-star game. melvin mora with the game winning home run in the 12th inning. birds beat toronto 4-3. if you can't watch the orioles on masn join them on 105.7 fm with joe and fred throughout the entire baseball season.

birds win 4-3. see you tomorrow afternoon at 1:00 here on masn.

this was what this man left, his four kings. he left a legacy. >> i'm not even prepared to even talk because the f fact is, you know, steve was like, you know, a hero. a hero to me and, you know, heros are not supposed to die. just the memories and thoughts and things that me and steve have been through behind closedn doors that you did not see, he has inspired me a whole lot, he has helped me on every decision i have made. >> after the two-hour service the procession headed back down the road for a private burial at a cemetery about 20 miles from his hometown of mount olive. >> still to come here on espnews kobe and lebron didn't meet in the finals but

their team did go head to

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>> it's baseball's most exciting night. balls flying out of the stadium at the home run derby. with heavy hitters like albert pujols on his home turf. >> out of here, a home run for albert pujols. >> and ryan howard in his hometown. >> this one is gone. >> top sluggers swing for the fences. live from st. louis. 2009 state farm home run derby monday at 8:00 eastern on espn. >> the starting pitchers and managers of tuesday's all-star game will be addressing reporters on monday. espnews will bring those news conferences to you live starting at 11:00 a.m. eastern.

>> mets and reds, averaging 2.34 runs. offense showed a few signs of life. a fly to right. bruce can't handle it. but he hurts his hand on the play. in fact, he fractured his wrist. ihad to leave the game. jeff francoeur, how's this for a first impression. first at-bat with his new ball club, two-run single to right. line drive in the box score. he won't tell. santana only needed those two runs. seven shutout innings, struck out five. mets beat the reds 4-0. santana gets his seventh straight ten-win season. johnny cueto roughed up again. giving up 13 earned runs.

mets score four runs but where's the power? it's been eight games since the mets got deep. longest streak in the nay jors this year. by the way, new york had a seven-game homeless streak earlier this year. the 50 home runs fewest in baseball. >> brewers and dodgers. jeff brewer gives up a hit to the other pitcher, mike burns. single to left. j.j. hardy scores. look at manny, making the play. he stops, throws burns out at second imais. manny thinks he's hot stuff. >> easy pal. >> puts the pistol back in the holster. yes, manny being manny. brewers win 6-3. milwaukee's third win in the last ten games. trevor hoffman gets his 20th save. 20th season with 20 or more saves. >> jim thome of the white sox,

1-10 of their last 11 road games versus the twin. broken bat. the ball gets past carlos gomez. and denard spann as well. thome 1-4. four r.b.i. 42 end game with four or more r.b.i. others. white sox up 8' 3. white sox cling to go an 8-7 lead. jenks gets spann to ramirez for the game-ending double play. the white sox win 8-7. minnesota is now 10-13 in one-run games. joe mauer 0fehr the night. he had an r.b.i. but just the sixth time in 63 games he's gone hitless with at least four at-bats. >> the blazers have signed jazz forward paul milsap to a four-year $32 million offer sheet. milsap, a restricted free agent so that means utah has seven days to match the offer. the jazz have to figure out a way to trade carlos boozer if they want to keep milsap.

>> raptors, pistons in las vegas, summer action. first quarter, off the miss. watch detroit's first round pick, day, the flush. durr ron washington, got to be the shoes, maybe it's the hair. 13 points, six boards. and washington again, transition defense. coaches like that. fourth quarter quincey dube. nice speed to derozan. rookie out of u.s.c. pistons win by four. adam morrison in uniform. oh, what's going on here. lakers and cavs. there's morrison first half. three from the wing. danny green, former tar heel no, down the three. more from morrison. got a haircut, clean cut, got a trimmer as well. he's in vegas. 22 points for morrison. 4-6 from downtown. allen anderson, 35-footer at the

buzzer. he had 12. lakers win by six. >> curry and the warriors taking on the kings. curry throw the circus tent up. down three. later in the quarter, the fourth pick overall tyreke evans all night. he had 25 points, ten boards. fourth quarter, curry leading a comeback. draw ago three although he was 3-8 from beyond the arc. they would go toafer time. warriors down one, under 20 seconds to go. curry splitting the d. he had 29 points, 27 of which came in the second half and overtime. >> they have just gone final from chicagoland. we'll have much more from the winner. live news conferences coming up on espnews. >> don't forget about u.s. soccer. they had never lost a group match in the gold cup.

bad apples, a few bad speculator but a systemic quality to this process. he runs up against the various brick walls. he finds other attorneys and professionals and judges in chicago to be remarkably unsympathetic to the cases of his clients. could you talk about that, sort of the larger participation of so many other professionals in the city? >> first of all i want to say that it wasn't a matter of impoverished clients necessarily lech chicago in the '50s they were doing pretty well and that is one of the things i am trying to counter in the book, the idea that there is a sense, and i see it in like public television documentaries and things, that's black people moved north and they came north.

the move to the north and they were poor when they came in the state's poor and they were just for people. there is this a historical idea that somehow by definition but people are poor people. i know that is not what you meant but it is there indeed is irritating because it is not factual. that is why my book is called the exploitation. they are made poor by certain on ethical actors who are taking advantage of a structural situation set up by the federal government and the federal housing and administration that created a nationwide blockage of mortgage money for african-americans, so the bolten's, as many black families, the husband and wife both work and they were doing okay. they would have been fine if they didn't have to pay quadruple. if they could have paid 5,000 for their new home which is about what it had been worth and houses in the suburbs have been

going for. that is what is the key to this story, about people who should have done every bit as well as white people similarly situated with similar jobs, but they can't because of having to pay so much more for basic housing needs. so, as far as the complicity of the rest of the city, you know it is a machine city. the judiciary is very tied to the political structure. it was an overwhelmingly white judiciary. they just didn't have empathy. some did, a few here and there. there was a judge or to who would say, gosh that is terrible. we will give them a break but most of the time they said the contract is a contract and we just don't care but beyond that it was that once a speculator would buy a house or a property

with the mortgage often, resell it on contracts of they would pay $8,000 for a house and they would sell it on contract to a black couple for usually something like 16 or 17, about double, sometimes more. they collect the payments for a few years or maybe even just a year and then they have taken down payment. they say we are done with this, we want some more cash. they would sell the contract to another investor so say for $12,000, so they paid $8,000. the black family's 16. they are selling it to another investor for 12,000 so that guy says i am paying $12,000 for contract paper in which people only 16 so i have a deal and the speculator, i got extra money, so they would sell the paper to all kinds of white professionals

all across the city, attorneys, judges, politicians, dentists and doctors, people who were interested in looking for a nice investment and that wyden the circle of complicity greatly. so, that is part of the story too and that is the way that is similar to today's prime crisis, where people are over indebted by scrupulous-- unscrupulous mortgage bankers and then the papers sold off and it is not their problem anymore. >> let me pursue the discovery or this apprises aspect of this. your father may have discovered a world of contracts selling and widespread complicity in this process. you discover your father, a complex sometimes difficult, often courageous man his own involvement in real estate was

the source of some friction in the family and exposed him as he crusaded three charges of hypocrisy. could you talk about the building's? >> the buildings. part of what got me interested in working on learning about my father i guess what is this mystery of the buildings. my father had owned for apartment buildings on the west side of chicago, lawndale, the west park neighborhood and he had grown up in londell. he had a heart condition that he knew about when he was about 16. he always knew that his health was fragile and that he might not live a long life. he became an attorney and he invested in properties as a way to support his family and protect his family because these properties were going to be the thing that would enable his family to survive if something

would happen to him, if he were to have to work less hours, anything. they were an investment for his future as property is for many people. he invested in a neighborhood that the new and where he lived, said that even if he was working all day as the attorney could come in the evening and just walk through blocks and look in on his property. he had these properties and all i knew growing up, hear these stories about these buildings and some kind of, i knew there was some kind of paint around the buildings. at some point they had been sold, i knew that much and i knew they had been sold for not much money, for almost nothing was the family story and i knew that my relatives were upset about it. they thought my father had done something very stupid and wrong around these buildings and somehow he had gambled his family's future on buildings that did not pay off and when he died, the buildings were worth

less. we were left with no security because of that was the story and i was curious about it because i knew he was a crusader. on one hand i have heard from the family had it that he had helped black people with property somehow and yet there were these own properties that have become worthless. i knew there was some way that these two tales came together and i want to figure out how that happened. so, one of the first things i did in the book was asked about the buildings, interview my relatives about the buildings, the property research and figure out what happened to them. basically, it is hard to describe it. he was caught in the same cycle that any white property owner faced once a neighborhood started to go down. he was not exempt from the decline of a community. even though he understood what was going on in basically i

think i need to explain what happens when you have a community in which there are a lot of contracts going on. you have a situation where people are paying quadruple for their properties, double to quadruple in the can't miss a payment. that means they can retain the property. that means they often get more tenants in so they can keep those payments up because one to put it down payment, you want to lose it all, so contracts always are very active in the area where his problems for which is one of the reasons he was so intent on fighting them. he was fighting not only the injustice. he was fighting a process that was going to destroy his own future, his own committee or he had put everything, where he had gambled everything in the hopes that it would sustain him. so, it was very personal for him. he had done well not only from-- but he knew block by block and

house by house where they were. so, you know and this whole process that racial antagonisms because the white people in the neighborhoods where contract sellers were active where they were selling these properties at kylie exploited prices to african-americans, they saw black people moving in and immediately not maintaining the property, working all kinds of jobs in the kids are running wild. they had to work double shifts. how wells were they going to keep up the payments. so, people come if he could leave he would leave, once that situation is going on but my father could not leave. he could not leave for a lot of reasons, one being you know the issue of hypocrisy, what he is going to tell people. if only we would stay and fight it would be ok but i am leaving. given his public posture was not

something he could do. when whites left these neighborhoods where exploitive contract selling was concentrated it was going to buy from them anyway? he was not going to sell to these people. who else was going to buy them? no one else was going to buy them once they started going down so he was stuck in a terrible them would cycle that he well understood by could do nothing about, so all he could do is keep putting money into the properties and keep trying to maintain these properties and if he did not maintain them perfectly he was under a microscope. people were watching. enemies, people who did not like him, ferias fellow attorneys who said how dare you tell the world what we are doing. my father named their names and got in trouble that way. they fought back by saying you have these buildings, you are a

slumlord, you are lending to these tenants for could you have a faulty water fixture elois solvate bright up from the building code guy. so it was it very hard situation and in the end, on his deathbed basically he said we have to hold on to these buildings. we have got two more years on the mortgage payments and we will owned them all and it will help my wife and my five children, but after his death my mother could not hold on to them. she could not afford to because just the co-payments alone or more than she could handle. there is a story in the book about how these building gets sold. it is a tragedy, part of the reason i thought it was so important to tell the story and in part because you can't not tell it. to so central to the actual life of this real person i'm talking about but also it is an example of what happened to whites in

these neighborhoods. black people were exploited viciously for contracts selling but why to wanted to stay as neighbors in those communities also didn't have a lot of choices. they could stay and watch the neighborhood declined. they could really stop it because they could not get mortgage money for blacks. the white neighbors did not quite have that power. many did not want to leave and did not want to sell to speculators but for many it was the very bitter pill and that made them feel driven out and it created a lot of anger. the anger and the-- was not that different from that of other whites to live in these neighborhoods and felt that they had to leave whether they wanted to or not. >> the question of who is responsible for neighborhood decline was one that was heatedly discussed and was controversial then and it is one that remains with us today. your father took the position that structural forces are

fundamentally at work, depriving black communities of their economic resources, contributing to the spiral and deterioration. your brother david, your older brother, drew different conclusions after your father's death. he represents a very different political interpretation horse then on this process, one that is still with us in some political circles today. goody talking little bit about his vision or his interpretation and then we can open up to the audience to discuss. >> i hope we can talk about the contract by year's end some other things related because we have spent a lot of time on the first half of the book. my brother david was 17, almost 18 when my father died. he was quite young. also he was the oldest of the five of less than he was a student at the university of

chicago. after my father's death he turned 18. he was a sophomore by then and he wrote an article about the west side of chicago, criticizing martin luther king's crusade for cooking at that point was in chicago. and he basically argued that the problem on the westside was that there were too many welfare recipients out there in that the welfare recipients did not have a stake in their communities and therefore destroyed them. they tore down the properties in which they lived through destructive behavior. he wrote an article making this point, and the article even though he was just 18, and unknowns 18-year-old sophomore at the university of chicago, the article made quite an impact. people loved it, why people love

it. they thought here is someone telling the truth about the west side which is part of my, why sometimes question academics because there was an academic analysis going on at the time about you know, bad culture destroying communities and he fed into that. he picked up on it. so, he wrote this article in published it in a campus, university of chicago campus magazine. he got an immense reaction from the president of the school and all kinds of people around the school who wrote him laudatory letters. it was then, he then eroded and it was published. again, this was just a kid come 18 years old and he published this article, calling it the west side story, homes where the welfare check comes from. it was picked up by a very prominent "washington post"

journalist, who wrote in a syndicated column. in short my 18-year-old brother became quite famous for saying this about the west side. and, i have righted batted in the book as part of the example of what the media will pick up and who they will question and who they want because when my father tried to explain the forces that were destroying the west side chicago and submitted his article to the republic and was rejected and then to pick up an 18-year-old kid in save this is just great. my brother was a great writer, he is a very talented guy and it was beautifully written but it's a told me later when i interviewed him about it, he said it was an emotional reaction in some ways. he said he had been out to our fathers properties and some of them had come some of the units had been destroyed by tenants and he felt the tenants wreak havoc in some of these units and had contributed to our father's

death by creating economic stress, by making it impossible for him to keep the buildings as he wanted to so he said i was defending cam against people that i thought had hurt him. it was a very personal thing. and did my book i show destructive tenants and welfare received are not always aligned. some welfare recipients are destructive than some welfare recipients are fantastic. they don't go together, but my brother put them together and received great acclaim for it and he even had joseph you'll supper right him and say i gather you been studying this for many years. the kid was 18, so it was all very shocking but it is just how power works. i was initially surprised when i read the articles, what my brother had written but i don't

believe-- blamed him for it but i think there's something about the way it was received that is indicative of the way the media rights, publishes what it wants to hear and is highly critical. in fact my brother had changed the names and made up parts of the article to make degree better and no one ever investigated a single aspect of it, and they should have. but, in a way that article was another reaction to the pain of the transformation of these communities. part of what i try to talk about in the book is that these are human beings experiencing pain in their families, people who are suffering in all kinds of ways. it is not just evil speculators crushing good people. there is that of course but the repercussions ripple out into a wide and complex way, and people

react in human ways to herd and i write about that and i tried to make it three-dimensional and real and that is part of why i included my brother's story in the book. >> we have time for another-- a number of questions that he would come up to the microphone in the center of the room. keep your questions brief so we can get at least a couple of them in. >> good morning. can you hear me? where was the alderman and where were the churches and synagogues? >> the alderman orr in daily kos pocket. there was basically one independent alterman the passed away recently. the other 49 voted with daily in did what daily wanted so there were six black aldermen. black chicago would call them the silence six because they were in his control so they were no help. many of them were part of this system in that they knew the

building inspectors could be encouraged to write up some code violations if they speculator wanted somebody out. so, no help there. the churches and synagogues, my father spoke at a lot of churches and synagogues, so there was mixed feelings among them. there were supportive groups and less supportive ones. after my father's death wind black west fighters organize with the contract buyers the got an immense amount of help from the catholic church and from some jewish synagogues, from some protestant groups but that was in the late '60s. by then, the situation had gotten so extreme, that they felt compelled to act but early on i think there were a little sluggish and more like the fight for open occupancy then against

real estate speculation. >> sir. >> its integration had been granted in south side neighborhoods instead of a wholesale exodus by whites do think these neighborhoods would be better off now or do think there is to be would be any different or do think they were destined to decline? >> i think you left understand the way the fha, the federal housing administration structured this whole thing. i think that was ultimately behind the wholesale exodus of whites and the decline of communities. the wade dfa jade worked was that they only, they would not insure mortgages in changing neighborhoods by which a few black men moved into a white community they would not insure mortgages there. i have statistic in the book, out of 240 savings and loans in chicago they found one alone to

a black family living in a white neighborhood, a family wants to get out of the completely packed black ghetto so they can get out with a regular mortgage. they can't buy-in and a fair price on fair terms and live-- it is less likely. so, white people may not have understood exactly what was going on but they knew that once the black people started moving in, and they would use the buy-in on contract at high prices and having to overcrowd the properties. they also knew, white people knew that the area was red-lined once blacks moved in. what they understood was suddenly it was hard for them to sell their property. it was hard for anyone who wants to buy to get a loan to buy there. the whole community is written off. so they have to get out. the quicker they leave the better because basically you have people going door-to-door

saying blacks are coming. if you want to sell to me know i will give you $8,000 for your property, but if you want to wait a month i will give you seven and if you want to wait two months i will give you five so it is up to you. wait and get less or leave no and maybe get something close to what your property is worth. so, they left. there was an idea that only if they would have stayed it would have been fined. economically it was just too risky and there were often lectured by well meaning racial liberals who said what is wrong with you? wirer you running but they knew, they were the people who would get a call in the middle of the night saying the want to sell it? there were speculator, a black-- blockbusters really pushing to get people out. does that answer the question? the one last question. >> i enjoyed reading the book a great deal.

there was should god go review it and i bought it from the seminary co-opt bookstore. i was wondering if you would talk about the difference between this all lewinsky kind of grassroots organizers versus the ruth brown organizing. i was real fascinated by what i interpreted as your kind of complex take on this. >> sure. i will be have to-- there will have to be very fast but essentially linski always wanted to win and what i think about it is the forces that hurt black people are complicated and you can't always assume you will wins the with you say i will only five when i can when you are basically saying that will not fight for things to keep black people down because it is too complicated. that is mike treat of linski. he was too oriented towards winning in a way that meant he would only take out simple

things and this contract buyers lee did not feel that way inver willing to take on highly complex economic exploitation. people understood they won a lot. lewinsky said don't touch it. i don't think you can say that if you want to do with institutional racism, which is complicated. there is so much more in this book that we have not been able to touch upon today so i recommend you go out of this room. there are copies out there that you can purchase and beryl will be available to sign as books should you so desire. i wanted thank our speaker and i want to thank our audience for coming out, so we appreciate it. thank you. [applause] >> we will be back with more of our coverage from the 2009 "chicago tribune" printers row lit fest after this short break. up next a panel discussion on american al was with the author's elliot gorn and joseph

wheelan. >> this summer booktv is asking, what are you reading? >> i am carla cohen. i am the co-owner of politics and prose bookstore in washington d.c. and i got into the business because i love to read more than anything. aiken see i don't dew to much exercise. instead i lie on my soul in freed instead. so, i want to tell you about the books. this is just such an incredible year for reading and for books, and i am happy to have the chance to talk about this on c-span because i think c-span doesn't bring in of fiction to you, and i think fiction can often be more true then books about policy or history.

my to themes of this year are immigration and south asia. i am not going to talk about the three paperbacks that are so popular. they really don't need me to support them but i will tell you what they are. one is never land-- netherlandic by joseph o'neill, who is part detchon part i risch and the book takes place in new york, a post-9/11. the second book is the currency literary and i always, i have to stumble over the name. the guernsey literary and potato peel society, which is a book of the epistolary book, about the currency during world war ii and is a really delightful book about some women who get

together and try to think of ways of sabotaging the germans the war on the island, who occupy the island and it is part of britain and the germans actually, the nazis occupied the island. the third book, which really does not need me to promote is jhumpa lahiri's on the customer earth. that segues into come infected represents both the genres that i want to introduce today. won his novels about immigration i find it a constantly reaffirming story about people coming to the united states to reinvent themselves, and the other is the great lies of the south asian writers and of course jhumpa lahiri represents

both of these trends. on immigration, i guess i would like to start with woods burner because it takes place in the 1850's and it is about a group of mostly new americans, who are working out issues in the united states, trying to settle into the new world but it all takes place in a few hours in the area around walden pond, where a very depressed henry thoreau accident late starts a forest fire and everybody in the surrounding area is pull then to try to prevent the fire from burning down the beautiful town of concord. and, the hero of the day is a

norwegian immigrant named osmond hoose who has had a tragic, a tragic events happen to him on the ship on the ship over to the united states. it is a way in which he can we find in relocate himself in the united states by helping to subdue the fire and there are other characters as well. there are czech immigrants, there are irish immigrants and there are others who are becoming the composite that the united states will be. then, another book that takes place a whole century later is bergland bike colm toibin. that is about an irish woman who comes to the united states, to brooklyn obviously, and leaves her family.

there is no work for her in brooklyn, and it is just a really lovely book about how elisse is able to settle in, find friends. she is called by your mother to come back to ireland and she has to decide which side of the ocean she is going to live on. you don't know until the very end what decision she is going to make, and it has got a little bit of mystery and a little bit of romance and it is just a very lovely book. we are out of it so i can't even show you a cover. we have sold so many copies this weekend. so, let's see. another emigrant novel is louis alberto urrea's into the

beautiful north. this is the second of they have books that i have read. the first was, burd's daughter. this actually takes place mostly in the united states because it is about a mexican woman who comes to the united states to find seven men to save her town in northern mexico from bandits. she is under the influence of fuel brenner's the magnificent seven and she and her friend travel around the united states, looking, trying to locate the seven men who will fight the bandits, so that is a really adorable book. then there are some british immigration books. to, i think many of you know that britain is changing since it entered the common market. it has become a center for immigration from all over and from eastern europe as well as from south asia into books that

represent those to different areas. one is a prose tremayne's the road home. rose tremayne is a british writer who should be better known in the united states. this takes place in london, a man who is from the former soviet union and is trying to eke out a living, having left at a very bleak time in eastern europe, and then the second book also takes place in a kitchen, and that is called in the kitchen by monica ali. so, i think both, this one of course is in paper, the road home and the new monica aleve is in hardback, which probably makes a difference to people.

finally, monica aleve's segues into my other favorite genre, which is salvation books. i have to hear. one is abraham verghese, cutting this don't which is about a physician, who-- it is really hard to describe because it is a very fat epic novel. we have gotten lots of people who have been coming into the store to say no much they love this book. verghese is the a physician and the united states, who immigrated here actually from ethiopia where his family were protestant missionaries, and a lot of cutting the stone takes place in ethiopia and a lot takes place in the united states in a hospital in the united states and it is lush, the

beautiful riding of bout medicine and about immigration and it is about ethiopia in bad times and it is a wonderful book. the other book, south asian book, takes place in calcutta, and it is called sacred games. it is by vikram chandra the. is in the tradition of life imitating art. what happened in mumbai last year was almost as though they were following a script from sacred games and sacred games is dominated by two major characters, an underworld boss who has all kinds of ties to nationalist groups, and so although he is interested in money, he is also delaying the will of some of the fundamentalist, hindu

fundamentalist politicians and then the good guy in the book is a police detective, who is on this side of virtue and goodness and democracy, and they are pitted against each other in this huge novel, which is a wonderful book to take away on a trip. so, those are my recommendations. i could go on and on and on but i tried to narrow it down and thank you for asking me. >> to see more summer reading lists and other program information visit our web site at booktv.org. >> these are the best-selling hardcover nonfiction books according to "the new york times."

>> this summer booktv is asking, what are you reading? >> what are you reading this summer? >> well, lamar leonard has a novel out in george pelicano says the new novel of so i'm reading some novels. i am listening on recorded books driving over here and i was listening, going back to the history of jacksonian america called the leaking giant. >> there are predictions that books might go the way of news and that is all digital. >> the kindle's are out there.

i like the great deal of a book in my hand but i have had-- >> to see more summer reading lists and other program information visit our web site at booktv.org. >> no more book tds coverage from the 2009 "chicago tribune" printers row lit fest. the second event of the day features elliot gorn auth theroux "dillinger's wild ride" the year that made america's public enemy number one. and john hallwas, author of "dime novel desperados" the notorious maxwell brothers. [applause] >> one of the reasons i love books is that i am in neck with things like that. i don't even know how to turn off my phone. i am sure that will be great with your book. this is an interesting one. the way many of these panels come together randomly, like they toss a couple of authors'

names up and they fall down on the table and they say rick guo interview these people. this is very interesting because what we are dealing with with these two fine books, "dillinger's wild ride" and "dime novel desperados" aires subject. anybody in this room not know who john dillenger is? thank you. anybody ever hear of the maxwell brothers? i find this fascinating. i am serious. this is a wonderful kind of thing. elias, when you are thinking about, and i'm not sure how you go about it but thinking about john dillenger do you ever say before writing any research, a lot of people have fought in written about dillenger? >> yes. and what is surprising, at the end of the book, a lot more has been written since i began and the amount of material is

increasing. it is not decreasing since the turn of the century. there been several books on dillenger, good books and the in other words maybe i should have thought about it more before i got into it but i thought i might have something new to say. they are good books and i think this is one of them, but i think i tried to emphasize the context a little bit, trying to understand dillenger in the 30's and understand why, as he began, why we still remember him today. ..

it's almost a stunning rediscover a because here you have out all figures who were as well known in their own time as the james brothers or billy the kid and everybody's sitting here knows about the james brothers and billy the kid. there's been three dozen movies for example on billy the kid, i don't know how many books. he was a small town cattle rustler in the new mexico territory, of course killed a couple of deputy sheriffs when he escaped from jail and so on and so forth. here you have in the midwest

from illinois the maxwell brothers who were small-time basically horse thieves and thieves from people's homes, burglars, things like that, got into a gunfight in wisconsin, dropped to sheriffs from two different counties in the street. it was the same as the gunfight at the corral everybody's sitting here also remembers the house have heard of probably seen movies about brothers against brothers. supposedly the herbs for the good guys you need to talk to historians if you still think so but in any case, brothers against brothers and wisconsin, the maxwells against the coleman brothers and the maxwells were crack shots. they could have been circus performers the dropped right in the street, killed share of santa counties, took off the largest manhunt for a out walls in the history of america. >> what i'm thinking, one of the interesting things in parallel the fbi most wanted list these

two guys would have been what dillinger was, the most wanted man in america. >> yes, and in a sense they were for a while the most wanted. in the background of this book he talked about context in these two books, and in the background in this one you have a little of the billy the kid story, the okay corral, and they are all taking place in the same year as the climax of the maxwell story, 1881, also president garfield is shot in the back july 2nd, 1881. same time, charles kendal and dies slowly through the summer and eventually passes away in september. all of this violence going on in america. and right in the middle is the maxwell brothers. billy the kid is killed that summer. he gets page five article in the new york times. so famous evin of using the mexican territory he gets a page five article billy the kid, and meritorious bandit -- when ed

lynch was launched he was two days running. >> eliot was a historian you got to admire this gaudy and this kind of discovery. >> it's the sort of thing you always hope to find in the archives, that kind of story. it's wonderful and it's a good question about what gets remembered and what is forgotten and also how things get remembered is a big part of it. and dillinger for example is always remembered as an outlaw. it's a metaphor to which we understand and which people understood i should say in the 30's as an outlaw. he's more often called an outlaw in a gangster so is in that same kind of broad tradition. but by the same token, we forget certain things. a good example is the james brothers and jesse james howell in the recent biography

lifestyles he brings back that which is forgotten, he has remembered as the desperado and the outlook and he is not remembered after the civil war that part of bringing back the government's, the old increments and basically starting the process of instituting segregation and jim crow. he's part of that, jesse james is publicly aligned with the configuration so some of it is serendipity while we remember of course there is one thing drives out another. there were a bank robberies. there were people probably as bloody jongh the ledger. somehow he is charisma, the story get remembered but there are also other reasons we remember certain things and not others and why certain kinds of has stories and myths they become stories we want to

believe. we would rather the need co rather think about walls as the old west. it's become a we think of americans rather than the midwest more than wisconsin. >> he has hit on something right on the mark. that is absolutely true. the particular social context and that place has much to do with what we remember or who and what we forget. in this particular case billy the kid for example loss from what we now call the wild west, the old fart west, a place always in its out all types and it's desperado types of the one hand they want to eradicate them. there was ambivalence about them on the other hand they want to celebrate them and see them as heroes because they embody certain to use the exact term american myths bold manliness all those things in bodied said they are remembered. these guys were on the wrong side of the river.

they were in the illinois wisconsin site. the old west, which the frontier had gone by the time they were here in post civil war. this wasn't yet called the midwest. it wouldn't be called the midwest until the 1890's but it was moving towards thinking of itself as the midwest in other words what they were singing and allowing wisconsin and so forth we are like the east coast come here and invest in the cities and by your forms. this is safe and to a wonderful place to have a future and so we are not like across the river out there you have all these stories about violence and cattle rustling, no, no we are not like that so there's nothing like that here and there for you. the maxwell brothers if i mention freak rand there wouldn't be a hand that would probably go up that has heard about frank random who supposedly killed 16 people comic situation like billy the kid but he did kill six or seven and was quite a remarkable l.

all gunfighter in the illinois area also same time as the maxwell brothers fleeing down all this kind of stuff on our side of the river. >> it's interesting that it takes the formation of organized crime to bring the midwest back up to the wall lists we love and admire. in your research and for both of these the press even in those days the press is somehow can be responsible for the glorification or mystification of these double separate these from you've got a good point about the midwest but a shrewd reporter for the tribune might have taken these guys and done that. the find especially as to historians is it often the press and coverage of the the characters that influence the

future image and winds up bearing other people? >> one of the things i try to do in this book is talk a little bit more about the press the and other books on dillinger because the lenders to offer reduced say that he should be credited, his son should be credited as the greatest circulation builder in history and it was true. reporters did latch onto this story and just reported day after day it is an exciting story of bank robberies and jailbreaks and shootouts and so on but it absolutely is a story about the development of the press and building of the press. at woolly the tribune is and a glorious area in the tribune's history but the tribune was a leading newspaper in criticizing or being looking askance at what was the growing power of what became the federal bureau of investigation the tribune was critical of how the bureau

handle padilla underscore but this is very much based on the development of the press and on the press the wire services especially picking up stories carrying them nationally the same thing when dellinger dies headlines all over america for days it is a page-one news because it is a sensational story. it's page one overseas, it's page one in latin america and page one in europe, it's a big story. >> exactly, and in my book the exact same thing about the press and its impact is throughout the book in fact i can't name another book on out walls and i have read many that focuses on the creation of the figures in the press as in this particular case in fact in general my vision of things as a writer i see a world of chronically shallow comprehensive complex human beings and i use the maxwell brothers as an example of that kind of thing in other

words we are all struggling against shallow comprehension of who we are. on say in effect okay let me give you the case of the maxwell brothers engaged in the same struggle you and i are engaged in but with much more horrific results and let's look at their struggle and so i am concerned about how the press and storytelling as a whole shapes public comprehension of people often for the negative and so the story begins with yong and in a downstate jail. he's been arrested and with a local article on him that says local desperado and so forth destined to be a killer etc and he makes comparisons to figures we what kind of call action figures today were like that man

type figures. jack the giant killer and so forth, heroic figures. what has the guide on to earn this? he stole clothes from a local store. so what do they do? what a judge do in that case? a judge would say at age 19, you know you shouldn't steal clothing from a store. now don't do that or report to the local officer with the court once on the next six months or do 20 hours of community work at the local ymca and don't do that again. what do they do? send him to juliet and i take you into different chapters inside. if you don't know anything about juliet in the 19th century prisons you are in for a shock. terribly dehumanizing place that produced out walls and severe violent men because of the nature of the place. and again it reinforces my notion the public ways

contributes to the creation not only the public motion but also acts will creation because the social conditions that we provide. >> this is why you each to talk about and i had an interesting panel we talked about the mob and what makes it critical to the critical and many people say this merger. these are make no mistake that people. however romanticized they may be and however we think about this. the circumstances dillinger do you believe, eliot, it's very interesting about the going to prison because i know a lot of people who have gone there and come up much worse than when they went in but talk about dillon terse background and what is your theory on that? was he born to be bad as they say? >> some previous biographers, previous biographers have talked about dillinger and written

about someone who was exactly born to be bad and when you read the accounts of descriptions of him as a kid they come right out of the movies and you realize these are not accounts of john dillinger. no one could know that about john dillinger. these are whoever writes these accounts going back to his time is running out of the movies which are very popular in that era. when you try to get as close as you can you can't get that close, the sources are not great you probably would have gotten into some trouble in his life. but basically i think the way to the evidence is that he was a fairly average kid. there's no doubt resembles the in important thing for him. he committed a crime and was a violent crime, it was a stick up when he was 21-years-old with an ex-convict named ed singleton

and held up an old man like dylan terse father and elderly grocery store owner, makes you think. and for that crime was sentenced to a possibility of 20 years in prison. first-time offense. he served nine years and what couldn't be more clear is that is where he really learned about crime. that is where he hung out with the guys that became the dillinger gang and he figured out when he got out on the outside which banks to broad and towns to go to, a hutu who got with, what cars to think about getting, what cars are fast and so on, how to play the game of jurisdictions, police jurisdictions and from there to bring his friends out of the indian act and so that he would have the gang together that basically formed in jail. there is no doubt the prison was

a school of crime for the winter. i just don't think there can be any doubt about that. >> it nurtures ones that instinct. >> there are good reasons to incarcerate people, don't get me wrong. but we shouldn't act as if there are not consequences and are not things to think about and especially as we continue to incarcerate and more people in america. >> these guys were relatively simple with childhood and there is nothing if you read the book to the certain point or a certain part of it when these guys as kids i wouldn't think they were destined for desperado -- >> let me speak to this issue you asked and elliott addressed "dime novel desperadoes" is centered around a philosophical issue and in fact the widely discussed controversy in the history of all philosophy and

that is due people have free will, can they choose to do this or that, this kind of person or not or do we have a weak creatures of determinism, more or less forced to go this way or that way by forces beyond control? believe me it is the most widely talked-about issue in all of philosophy you look for example let the 640 page oxford book of the free will fix it will buy the university press and i take this up directly i use the maxwell brothers again as an example of that because incidently to summarize things very briefly that are very hugely complex evidence is from a variety of different fields of psychology, sociology and so forth, genetics showing that we don't have the free will that normally we have flopped. we don't. we are creatures who are in pinched upon by forces

especially as things affect our identity in other words what you can do for a job or could never do for a job who you can stand to live with as a spouse or could never stand to live with as your spouse and those kinds of things, expression of who you are, those are in that sense you are a product of forces. let me read you this little section and then eliot or rick can comment from the book, from the middle of the book. and maxwell has lynched one of the brothers, one of them gets it is lynched touching off a nationwide discussion in and 1881. ed maxwell didn't create or want the psychological problems, social conditions and public attitudes that produced him. at the same was true, they were fated to be themselves, in part

first, shane, alienated, insecure, frustrated and self absorption young men who resented authority year and for respect and love to guns. those factors and penitentiary to humanization which they also didn't choose shaped their experience including their sudden response to strangers in the street who pulled guns on them and could have shot them down. if the history of the violent act extends back well past the immediate provocation to powerful on chosen forces and the perpetrators life, what response by society is appropriate? and what must we also think about our own lives as far as that is concerned and believe me the weight of scholarship in those fields is coming down hugely. the introduction to the book of free will will tell you coming down hugely to the fact we don't have anywhere near the free will to choose major things in our lives as we have assumed in the

past. >> i will comment on that, god does that the press may. i'm surprised i didn't come a criminal. that is fascinating and certainly in this case. >> i had taught courses with this kind of mix and focus and i build them into my books when i see a particular case that will support or bring this issue out, but this very matter you raise to what degree are people responsible then and you see yes if you and i were growing up as an impoverished disrespected sons of farmers on the frontier in illinois we would probably not have become outlaws. why? we have a different genetic makes the, we have a different psychological issue in our childhood and so forth. we have all those different factors interact and we must think of the human self as a

complex different forces very different from person-to-person and for some people, poverty, disrespect and so forth can trigger this kind of behavior and to us it won't trigger that. maybe a desire to rise and show somebody we really can make a contribution. to somebody else will trigger resentment. >> elliott what do you think of that? >> it's depressing, you are right. [laughter] i wouldn't disagree with the notion that there is an awful lot that determines who we become in our lives. part i would want to separate and think about more is you mentioned genetics, we are biologically and i get a little uneasy with that kind of discussion. it's not that i don't think it's important, it's that we don't know so much about that. i think for example sticking with my script with john dillinger, it matters who he is

terribly personally, his upbringing and his home in indiana and indianapolis and also matters very much he goes to prison in 1924 in a very prosperous moment in american history at age 21 and comes out almost 30-years-old at the worst moment of the great depression. he comes out and there's a 25% unemployment rate. this is the moment in that particular history of that economic cataclysm unlike hour own which begins with a bank failure that is one that the bank failure doesn't come until just before dillinger gets out of prison and 33 when the banks start to collapse in massive numbers and that's very, very important that banks are the enemy in people's minds at that moment. there is much more than today rage, anchor. that's a piece of the stories of the context does matter very much and i want to make it totally deterministic most

people don't start doing stickups but it's very important. >> i absolutely 100% agree the context, the social context and the cultural context which is the ideas we have in our mind how men should be hit and women should behave, what america is all about, the culture we carry in our heads is key in the social conditions of the time whether it is depression or not these guys, my guys for example were also young man trying to get started during a depression. the 1870's for example the greatest depression we had had a until that time in america. so again that impacted them as i point out very greatly. you've got those factors that a portion of the population at least has in common at a particular time and those are very determining factors especially for certain people depending upon their genetic and psychological makes.

>> the times in which even now which we are living have the ability to push someone with just four enough there was a video not long ago fascinating about a guy that was attempting to rob a fast quick march or something and the guy pulled a shotgun. the guy pulls a shotgun and pleads for his life and says i only lost my job and i was just trying to get something to eat and the owner of the store gives him $4 a loaf of bread and i think you are so right that the times can if not make the criminal at least be the final straw, that last little push. >> we need to ask ourselves what then as a culture and a society what is our responsibility knowing this now what should we be doing? we can't remove all adverse social conditions, although we should work on it. what about our culture? why does america really to do

this and i even bring it up in the preface is the fact that america is the most violent developed nation of the earth by far nobody else even comes close. why is that? do we have bad social conditions everywhere? no, but our culture has always glorified manliness. mess with me and you are messing with the alternates. we always glorified that. as you have that as part of your system, deeply held a news myth like scholars, deeply felt cultural believe you will have huge gun violence. so what can we do? of the other things we should begin the constructing some of these myths that lead to prompt negative behavior. that is one thing we can do as a culture outside to address social issues for exceed and help people deal with their psychological problems and so on. we've got to address things in several different ways.

>> before we open this for questions, and i'm sure you have many you guys must be great teachers. do you get the sense that -- line serious it's like y -- ai but love to take a history class from one of you to. teaching and writing. you've written 24 books, this is your 24th. it is a balancing act for you or -- >> that is a tough question. i'm not a great teacher, i just show up basically. [laughter] they are related to each other, no doubt about it. i think sometimes maybe even faculty members make it seem as if they are so entirely related more than they are because there's always tension in terms of where you put your time to really be good in the classroom you have to put in the time and spend time with students not just in the classroom but preparing individually with them all of the things that go with it and that takes time away from

the riding so you constantly feel attention but they feel each other in terms of if i think as both john and i both care about who our readers are i think we are both trying desperately not choose to the code to just right for narrow academic offices and that's something that does work that you are at least trying to think about all right someone who is not quite as first in the subject, how do i make this explicable and understandable and at the same time try not to sacrifice some analytical rigor and sacrifice will you have to say. that's a trick but that is all i think, and to teaching and writing. >> that's a good point and my whole career i've planted teaching and writing and have been especially interested in addressing groups, speaking to groups outside the academic community ever since i was a young professor in the early 1970's and in fact spoken in

more than 150 illinois communities over the years on a variety of bill malae topics i currently speak and novel desperadoes for example so, yes sometimes the feedback you get from people and the questions you learn to expect from people is helpful. even in talking about this topic, talking about illinois out walls which again hardly ever studied before and i got out to talk about them in various communities starting a few years ago and was finishing this book and a couple of different occasions after talking about things somebody down state for example near st. louis was talking about the place where another gunfight takes place in the book in calhoun county and in a certain area in a very remote county incidently were the mississippi came together and after eyeballs

done speaking an 93-year-old man comes up and wants to shake my hand and says i thought this was a wonderful talker and i just want to tell you i am at night and i owned the land where the gunfight took place, not at the time because the gunfight took place earlier but he bought it from the guy that owned it up the time said he heard about the maxwells and the gunfight down there where they killed a sheriff for supposedly did. from the actual owner come from other locals when he was a young guy so he all that and later on i interviewed ed and got more information from the book so sometimes people with a particular interest can contribute also swedes always exciting for me. >> the last book i wrote was about mother jones, the labor organizer and i was an, it was after i finished the book and i was in trinidad colorado and southeast colorado and i went into the historical society and it was a pretty old woman

running the plays and i mentioned on finished this book and she looks at me and says i dress up and go into the schools and play mother jones and then she plans to her husband way more terrapin than she was and says his mother heard mother jones speak from a railroad car. she said she never heard a woman swear so much. [laughter] >> before we take questions i must tell you these books -- there's nothing more exciting to me because my father wrote these things than scholarly sound narrative nonfiction. i mean do not be somehow put off by the notes and index and other things in the back. these two are in good reads. these are just wonderful reads. i'm not, you know, the head of the department. i am sure all of that is right, too. i like reading and if you listen to these gentlemen i think you get a sense of they could

probably pull off a good narrative here. we would love to take some questions. just step up to this microphone. you will be next, young man. yes, sir. >> about the media picking what we get our attention to ask crime there is a memorial day massacre which is never played up in comparison with the valentine's day massacre and i think this is to protect the capitalist and the tribune would be an example for that. i disagree that there are good reasons for incarcerating people. i think there are better reasons not to partly because i don't believe in locking up the innocent. but then jails are used to work the mauney draft and blood tax

in order to promote war and war cause criminal enterprises that cause more damage than the criminals to. and they use the frame innocent people in order to keep door growing american death squad. in order to keep going the american death squad which affects american and international foreign policy -- >> i've got to tell you now is the question -- >> was it really john dillinger killed? >> good question. he will answer it. >> the identification of the eye color was not that of john dillinger. >> thank you. >> eis cloud up when someone dies, the eye color actually changes. there have been books written and this is again part of the bill under the legend that it

wasn't john bollinger killed in front of the myograph and john sayles, the filmmaker even wrote a short story called the ledger in hollywood. there was a very bad movie a few years ago storing now i forget, it was called dillinger and capone with the premise that dillinger and escaped. those who were close to him who had every reason to think it was him, no one at the time, none of the folks objected, none of the folks said it wasn't drawn to the coach on the lunger lying there. he did look not as good as he might have after plastic surgery and being shot four times and so on but the evidence is that was still under lying there. it's just not very good evidence that it was sent. >> i just want to ask one question. >> are you excited to have this

book come out roughly at the same time johnny depp -- is there any way you can put -- >> johnny depp starring in a new movie. >> it's bound to get more attention from the book which is great. >> but it happens -- i think i was aiming for the same thing which is the 75th anniversary which is every one shall abide by a graph theater, ten, 20, july 22nd this year be there. there will be a bagpiper. it will be tremendous. >> thank you this is very fascinating. i picked up a correlation from both you guys that dillinger was more of a victim of his environment as opposed to the maxwell's stole a suit and went to prison. is it really a victim, are you a victim of your environment or if

i take rick and put him in the same situation with his genes control and upcoming criminal? >> it wouldn't take much for me to become a criminal. [laughter] well again, everybody has their own complex configuration of those things not only genetic predispositions, but also psychological issues and they are going to differ from person-to-person. do you take people that are so different and put them in the same kind of pressures and cultural norms and you are going to get different behaviors but that doesn't mean that they are not responding severe pressure to do what they do and be who they are and we need to comprehend that among other things so that we have better justice administration, more effective. >> it's a really good question and there is no doubt different people would react differently

and i don't mean to sidestep the question put another way to think about it in terms of contingency it is not as if someone decides to be a celebrity criminal, that is a bit of a slippery slope. it's circumstances, there are circumstances under which some people would take the first step and the first step having been taken there is a logical second step toward a circumstance is created. he can it's the first crime. i can't imagine committing the first car, hitting an old man to take his money. but maybe if i imagine a little harder maybe there would be circumstances which that could happen but i don't think i could do that. i could imagine if something happened that put me in jail for so long and the guy who was probably more responsible hires a lawyer and get off in two years, dellinger said make a clean breast of it, they will define it will go well and he serves nine years, his body at

singleton gets a lawyer and service two years. you can imagine the circumstances one thing leading to another. again in the middle of the great depression when earning a living is difficult. do you see what i'm singing? i don't mean to say any of us would do it but a lot of us could. >> yes, ma'am. >> my question is a sort of off shift to what we are talking about for both maxwell and to launder external circumstances, prison, there is a direct correlation to morality and religion the moral compass and i was wondering if either of these books or fellows in the books did have any organized religion or anything like that in their life? >> good question. >> i discussed that kind of background for the maxwells. they did have a religious protestant parents. they were in a predominantly

religious environment in the home. yes but there were other factors also that are involved in the to complex for me to say briefly, even in that religion. let me say this because i talked about a number of times to classes and groups, yes there are other ramifications besides the justice issue to this matter that modern scholarship is showing there were much more driven to be the way we are than previously assumed for example think of the religious systems that we all know about, christianity and islam for example which have stated it's a matter of free choice. you either choose to be a follower of jesus or you go to hell. there is your choice with islam you either choose to be a follower of allah and the kuran

or you are going to go to hell. there is. you make a choice and are totally responsible. i mean really. all of the same scholarship is showing that in fact people who are islamic our islamic for a lot of cultural and social reasons. that is why they are islamic people are christians because they come out of christian culture. their parents were christians or the psychological issues that blend with christianity and so forth and if that is true then to what extent what happens to this issue of if i choose wrong and get punished for ever and ever in a bad place when in fact it's really a question of course, culture, pressure and so forth and so on. don't forget those religions were developed long before we had a notion about those pressures on our lives, on our choices, and so now it's

creating an issue. no wonder flexible the concept of health and christianity and keeps growing in terms of the people who buy it is down. practically every time i look at some statistic u.s. catholic or i don't care what magazine, boom, it goes further down. in fewer people are buying it. >> without indolent your? what was his religious -- >> he was raised a church the were in indianapolis and probably for a while the family moved when he was in his mid teens and he was probably still attending them. a famous story when he got out of prison almost age 319331 of the first things he did was go with his father to the surface and the pastor was a quaker meeting and the pastore delivered a sermon that title the prodigal son and delimiter swept through the whole thing and went out and shook her hand

afterwards and said you don't know how much good your sermon dittany and within a month he's out there. [laughter] >> we've got time for one last question. >> it seems to me we are missing the robin hood quality, that is what makes the characters so interesting, even bonnie and clyde was the same way and dillinger and of course those of us in chicago can remember there's always good stories about what cone did on the side and so forth. >> soup kitchens. >> as part of their appeal. >> this is true with lawbreakers of course than with others. another one of my books called the bootlegger of small-town america deals with a robin hood type figure who was idealized by his local community downstate during the twenties who in fact was a confirmed bootlegger and croats and beat people and eventually committed murder and so forth but still most of the locals continue to idealize it

precisely because of this robin hood factor in all sorts of stories develop that he was giving money and taking care of the poor in his town and doing other things like that and it's partly an expression of what people want to see in some figure. a figure comes before the public and the public at a particular time wants to see certain things in the figure. they invest certain things in the figure and it's true of these guys also but especially true among my books in the bootlegger. >> i couldn't agree more as john said there is a kind of it's almost a mystical pattern we plug into this idea of the historian eric copps talks about this in books he wrote several years ago, the myth of the robin hood figure of someone who comes

to intervene and opposes the morrill wolpe of the state of the community and brings a higher moral law. now, people believe they are not usually so naive they believe it much more selectively than we sometimes think and dellinger is a good example. i don't think many people as a few years later got writes about pretty boy floyd leaving 1,000-dollar bill for a poor family that sort of thing. you find little evidence people believe that sort of thing. it's not that he robbed from the rich and gave to the poor it's that he robbed from the rich. there was -- [laughter] there was anger and i think that's a big part of the story. >> my book is called "dime novel desperadoes" because my guys ended up being a hero's or antihe rose in other words they became the hero for the first

time in 1881. jesse james, billy the kid and then the maxwell brothers and very few out outlaw's made in the fictionalized stories in which they became heroes of a sudden. they chose the public ambivalence toward those figures wanting to find boldness, independence, resistance, most people felt put upon bye authority and here's somebody willing to stand up and say you are not going to shove me around and they admire about and all of a sudden they are in books selling like hotcakes across the united states. >> again i am sorry i never had the opportunity to be in one of your class is because i would have gotten out of it but what a joy to have you writing books. these are fine books. gentlemen? [applause] speed booktv coverage from this year's "chicago tribune" printer's row lit fest will continue after this short break. coming up next historians orville, tom campbell and david

stewart talk about abraham lincoln and his legacy. after 50 years the trover book shop about two blocks from the capitol is closing. one of the owners is here with us at the bookshop. why is the trover closing? >> the business is down to the point we can't keep the doors open any more. and the publication industry media industry ase changed and we are not selling books like we used to. >> who is your competition? >> i want to see the big competition is the internet, what people are buying on the internet and maybe even more important what people are now balking because they have the information highway on their desktop. >> for people here in washington, trover is an institution. how would you describe trover

bookstore to people outside of washington? >> for me it's been my life. it is a family business. i grew up here as a little kid during the summers and i have been here 26 years, so it is most of what i know why. we've had a lot of great customers and are in a great location and have readers nearby. we've always kind of specialized in political books and in general we sell more nonfiction the infection. >> who are some of the folks who've come in for book signings were customers? >> as far as fighting as we have had colin powell, hillary clinton, lots of important people. mostly in the political arena more so than fictional authors. >> do you have a specialized selection of books because of

your location on capitol hill? >> yes i think location has driven that specialty to be focused on political books. >> and what's going to happen to this space after you leave? >> we have a lease for this to become a restaurant. >> looking at some of the selection of books you have where are these books being bought? is the internet, big box stores? >> i don't know. i think it a lot of cases the books are not being blocked any more because people have the information at their desk. i used to sell and still do a number of directories and that type of thing and a lot of that has gone not necessarily the internet about bye way of cd rom and now internet online and so for a lot of things people are not applying them. sales are down because people are using a map sites, newspaper

sales are down, magazine sales are down and did a lot of cases profit margins are down and also on top of the sales being down the profits are down even though we are selling. >> independent bookstores in general, do you have any thoughts on their survivability? >> well, i didn't think i would be one of the ones that wouldn't survive and i hope that people who have independent bookstores in their neighborhood will support them while they are there instead of lamenting their departure after they are gone. >> so what's next family? >> don't know. like i said i'd been doing this 26 years. i actually have a degree in chemical engineering from carnegie-mellon and i worked in that field a couple of years before coming to the book industry but i am far from being able to privately go into that and i am not sure what my future holds. >> one of the co-owners of the

trover bookshop. >> here's a look at upcoming book fairs and festivals over the next few months.

this summer book tv is asking what are you reading. >> i am the co-owner of politics and prose bookstore in washington, d.c. and i got into the business because i love to read more than anything. you can see i don't do too much exercise, that i lie on the sofa and instead. so i want to tell you about the books i think this is just such an incredible year for reading and for books and i am happy to have the chance to talk about this on c-span because i think c-span doesn't bring enough

fiction to you and i think fiction can often be more true than books about policy or history. my to themes this year are immigration and south asia. i'm not going to talk about three the braxton are so popular on their own, they really don't need me to support them but i will tell you what they are. one is never land which has received all kind of awards by joseph o'neill who is part dutch and part of a rash, and he has -- its a book that takes place and new york, post 9/11. the second book is the guernsey literary, i always have to stumble over the name, of the guernsey literary and the potato

peel society. it is about guernsey during world war ii and it is a delightful book about some women who get together and try to think of ways of sabotaging the germans on the island who occupied the island and its part of britain and the germans actually, the nazis occupied the island. and the third book, which really doesn't need me to promote is jhumpa lahiri's, custom earth. and it represents both genres i want to introduce today. one is novels about immigration. i find it a constantly reaffirming the story about people coming to the united

states to reinvent themselves and the other is the great rise in the south asian writers and of course jhumpa lahiri represents both of these trends. on immigration i guess i would like to start with woods burner because it takes place in the 1850's and it's about a group of mostly new americans who are working out issues and the united states trying to settle into the new world, but it all takes place in a few hours in the area around walden pond where a very depressed henry thoreau accidently starts a forest fire and everybody in the surrounding area is pulled in to

try to prevent the fire from burning down the beautiful town of concord and the hero of the day is a norwegian immigrant named osmond who has had a tragic event happen to him on the ship over to the united states and it is a way in which he can relocate himself in the united states by helping to subdue the fire and there are other characters as well. there's czech immigrants, there's irish immigrants and there are others who were becoming a composite that the united states will be. then another book that takes place a whole century later is

brooklyn by him colin and that is at what an irish woman that comes to the united states to brooklyn obviously, and leaves her family. there is no work for her in brooklyn and its a really lovely book about how elise is able to settle, find friends and is then called by her mother to come back to ireland and she has to decide which side of the ocean she's going to live on and you don't know until the very end what decision she's going to make ann gates bought a little bit of mystery and a little bit of romance and it is just a very lovely book. and we are out of it so i can't even show you a cover. we've sold so many copies this

weekend. so let me see. another immigrant novel is lower subroto -- luis alberto urrea into the beautiful north. this actually takes place mostly in the united states because it is about a mexican woman who comes to the united states to find seven men to save her town in northern mexico from bandits. she's under the influence of the magnet that -- magnificent seven and she travels around the united states to locate the seven men who will fight the bandits so that is an adorable book and then there is some british immigration books, i think many of you know britain is changing since it entered the

common market it's become a center for immigration from all over and from eastern europe as well as from south asia and to books that represent those different areas one is the road home. rose is a british writer who should be better known in the united states and this takes place in london, a man from the former soviet union trying to make out a living have been left at a bleak time in western europe and then the second book also takes place in the kitchen and that's called in the kitchen by monica ali. and so, i think both -- this one of course is in paper, the road home, and the new monica ali is

in hardback which probably makes a difference to people. finally, monica ali segues into my other favorite genre which is south asian books. i have two of them here. one is abraham verghese, cutting for stone, which is about a physician who -- it's hard to describe because it is a an epic novel. we have lots of people who have been coming into the store to say how much they love this book. it's a physician and the united states who immigrated from ethiopia where his family were protestant missionaries and a

lot of cutting for stone takes place and ethiopia and a lot takes place and the united states in a hospital in the united states and its lost beautiful riding about medicine and about immigration and it's about ethiopia in bad times and it's a wonderful book. and the other book that i, south asian book takes place and calcutta, and it's called sacred games and it's by vikram chandra. it's in the tradition of life imitating art. what happened in mumbai who last year was almost as though they were following a script from sacred games. and sacred games is dominated by two major characters. an underworld boss who has all kind of ties to nationalist

groups and so although he is interested and money he's also doing the will of some of the fundamentalist hindu fundamentalist politicians and then the good guy in the book is a police detective who is on the side of virtue and could miss and democracy and they are pitted against each other in this huge novel, which is a wonderful book to take away on a trip. so those are my recommendations. i could go on and on and on but i tried to narrow it down. thank you for asking me. >> to see more summer reading lists and other program information visit our website at booktv.org. ..

stewart is a trial lawyer and a award winning writer. boes skills are apparent in his book, and peach, the trial the andrew johnson and then finally, orville vernon burton, professor emeritus at the university of

illinois, now a professor coastal carolina diversity. professor burton's thesis covers the whole period before the civil war, during and after. he calls it the age of lincoln. so, let's begin with tom campbell. tom, people sometimes think that the abolitionists were concentrated in new england, but it turns out that chicago also was a hotbed of abolitionism. tell us about that. >> thanks gary. you are quite right, illinois had a country of activists that were involved in abolition and it really started in 1835 with the assassination of the elijah lovejoy. lovejoy was an editor in st. louis. he was publishing a paper where he thought sale every was sais then and he was going to make it is live crusade to agitate against it and the problem he had obviously was that missouri was a slave state in it didn't go over very well there. the monster read him so he was going to move his press across

the river to all, illinois because illinois was a free state any thought he could publish more freely there. it didn't work out the way he hoped. the moss came and destroyed his press. that touched off a reaction in chicago. one of chicago's first citizens, he was a doctor who came to be a physician for the militia at four dearborn, he called a public meeting to protest the assassination of love john and it wasn't just the killing of an abolitionist but the silencing of the press and these people viewed the press as part of the machinery of democracy, so this was a grave matter for him and dire quickly identified the others who would stand with him and this became a core of people who did several things. first, they founded abolitionist newspapers. they started western citizen, which publish for about 12 years. that became part of the free

west and free west was succeeded by the tribune, so at least as of this morning there is still a successor to one of their newspapers publishing in chicago. they also ran the underground railroad. i have traced some of the exciting stories that happened in chicago as slaves were brought to chicago to canada. they want to get them to candidate because even though eleanora was the free state they weren't safe here because of the fugitive slave laws so there were a lot of skirmishes between devolutionist and fugitive slave catchers and stuff like that. then they also started the political parties, with the liberty party followed by the free soil party and ultimately the republican party. dire in fact ran for governor as the candidate of the free soil party. he had a great sense of humor. he got trounced. he said i didn't ask a single man to vote for me and none did.

[laughter] but the antislavery society museum as the book of the antislavery society so here in chicago hugo 26 lago museum and see the protesting like the black was. i know david is going to be speaking a little bit about the black gloves and their insidious effect. >> why don't one of you define the term. >> sure, in addition to being opposed to slavery the abolitionists were very upset with all the harsh measures that were against blacks. for example in illinois in 1848, we passed a constitution that had a provision in it that the and free blacks from coming to the state of illinois. that provision was not repealed until after the civil war and there were harsh measures to prevent blacks from serving on juries in testifying in things of that sort. so, the antislavery society

would pass resolutions and of course that went nowhere but they did strike gold when they caught up with the republican party and this of course is where lincoln comes into the picture and lincoln wrote the platform that brought the republican party together in 1856. you will recall the nebraska act really touched off, it destroyed the whig party. the democrats and it was all over the issue of the spread of slavery. lincoln was shrewd enough to articulate the position that we were opposed to the expansion of slavery but we are not going to disturb it where it already exists in the slave states. he fashion that position which brought the party together and they were able to win the election in 1860. the other thing i discovered in my research was the cameron club which gary your museum also has the minute book of the cameron club. there is a lot of dispute over why the pennsylvanians in the second ballot at the 1860

convention went for lincoln and the same people who of course had been card-carrying republicans formed the cameron club, telling simon cameron of pennsylvania, they were big supporters of his and there were holding meetings and you come to chicago we will be here to support you. the change the name of the club for meetings into the cameron lincoln club telling the pennsylvanians that lincoln was their choice for vice president. you have to wonder how gullable pennsylvanians were because these were all, everybody that spoke to the meeting. at any rate there is one of the strands that explains with the pennsylvanians did and of course that got lincoln elected which gave him the power to do what he did to abolish slavery. >> tom when you say that lincoln was actually part of the abolitionist circle in chicago. >> no, gary, he clearly kept them at arm's length because the abolitionists were viewed as agitator's but they coalesced

with the republican party wants the republican party came along. up until that time the democrats had derided the liberty party and the free soil party as the one idea try. there one idea was the abolition of slavery and that was more than the nation was ready for and the republicans instead came up with this stop the expansion of slavery. the abolitionist saw that we got on board and they realize they were not going to win an election and that was the ticket. >> i also remember from your book, fighting slavery in chicago, that there was one instance of the sale of a slave in chicago. >> that is right carry and we were talking about the black laws and in fact you couldn't have free papers and couldn't prove that you are properly free, a black could be arrested, held and sold in slavery. this occurred in chicago. the abolitionists were beside

themselves. they went around the town to get people to show up at this auction, said the day came and a big crowd assembled in the sheriff said, nobody is speaking up. he said i'm going to have to take this man back to jail if i don't give a bid. finally the brother of the mayor said, i did 25 cents and he produced a shiny quarter come about the man and said you are now free. go, and everybody applauded. that was the one in sins of selling a slave in chicago and it caused quite a commotion as he can imagine. >> on a more serious no, i think your research has also shown that lincoln as a practicing lawyer, actually was on different sides of fugitive slave cases and maybe that is worth pausing for a moment. >> sure, actually as a lawyer one of the things that astounded me, i ran across the fact that

lincoln had probably handled six runaway slave cases, but into he was on the side of the slaveholder, taking the position that these people or property and should be returned back to their slave owners which causes you to hasco could lincoln or any illinois lawyer for that matter, take that position? well illinois was a free state, there were exceptions. you could have properly indentured servants and lincoln argued that these were slaves in transit and kentucky was merely taking them back but the slaves in transit doctrine as the supreme court dealt with it was, if you were from kentucky in your slave escape to illinois in your on your ways to ellen-- new orleans burgoine the mansing case that lincoln loss, manson had brought his slaves in and they worked in illinois for more than a year on farms and illinois and the court said that is not in transit, so he lost which maybe is a good thing.

>> why don't we move ahead to the immediate post civil war era, the time of andrew johnson and david stuart, i remember when i was a kid and i read john f. kennedy's profiles in courage, andrew johnson's trippi keeshan at least then was changing. it was improving from that of being sort of a backs later in the area of slavery and emancipation to someone who was almost a sympathetic figure. someone who was being railroaded by the radical republicans of the day. i think your book makes a very different argument. who is yorvit andrea johnson? >> well, he was a guy who was compared a lot to abraham lincoln. it is inevitable since he succeeded lincoln so what

happened then and it has really happened a lot since. when he became president, this terrible convulsion we had over the assassination and most people didn't know very much about johnson. they knew two things. one was that when all of the southern senators and seven representatives seceded with their states in 1861 when the civil war was about to begin and johnson was the man who didn't. he stood by the union. it was a very courageous thing to do, and he incurred great risk back home in tennessee. the the thing they knew when he had been inaugurated as vice president five weeks before the assassination, he had been drunk and had given a humiliating and degrading speech, which was totally incoherent and was a very bad sort of milestones for his presidency because whenever he did something controversial, a lot of people would shrug and

say he is drunk again. he and lincoln had very similar backgrounds. they were both very pour boyes. johnson had never attended school a day in his life but they have big differences. tom has talked little about some of the moral ambiguity that lincoln dealt with in the slavery issue. he was capable of speaking of slavery in moral terms. he favored the famous statement that if anything is wrong, slavery is wrong. johnson had none of those feelings. he was a slave owner himself. he never questioned slavery at a moral level. they also had a big difference as people. we know lincoln so well in terms of his stories and his little jokes and they are very instructive. ander johnson was not a funny guy. there are no andy johnson jobe's. there are no andrew johnson

self-deprecating remarks or anecdotes. i really loved and there is just not anything. [laughter] his bodyguard described him as the best hater i ever knew. james k. polk, a fellow tennessean, the president described him as very vindictive and perverse in his temper and conduct. he was not an easy guy to get along with. and this led to such terrible trouble. this is i think the kennedy book, profiles in courage, it's something i take after at the end of my book. there has been in misunderstanding in after the several war there was a real reaction. one of the catchphrases is that the north won the war in the south won the peace. there were a few that gained currency. johnson was right in letting the south do what it wished and not protecting the free slaves very much and there's this terrible risk of oppression of the white people by the freed slaves.

johnson talked about the risk that the self lac would be africanized, which is a pretty horrible phrase. he said he was doing just what lincoln would have wanted to. lincoln said when you beat a man who let him up easy. but, i think in the offense, what happened was johnson tried to let the southern states, but they adopted black codes of the sort that tom was describing, which included really almost a restoration of slavery. blackmon had to have labor contracts. it would run the whole year and if they violated the contract they would be imprisoned and would have to work for free. sort of a straightforward restoration of slavery. they were denied all of the civil-rights that we would expect a citizen to have. and the southerners, when it came time in 1865 jews congressman and senators they chose in many instances former

confederate officials. the vice president of the confederacy was picked as the senator from georgia. confederate generals were returned as congressmen and senators. this enraged the northerners. what that their sacrifice and fourth only to create greater power or restorative power? the very people the cost of the civil war. and johnson became intransigence over this decision. he really had a mystical view that states created the federal government, and he ended up really at daggers with the congress for almost three years. my view is kennedy got it very wrong in his portrayal not only of johnson but also there is a remarkable piece of kennedy's version of this where he described and focuses on the vote of a senator from kansas, edwin g. ross.

as a child read it many times. you will remember him as a backbencher and inconspicuous fellow who was the one vote in johnson only escape conviction by one vote. he was the one vote to save johnson's height and kennedy calls this perhaps the most heroic moment in american history. it is just an astonishing statement at some level but then when i dug into a deep was remarkable because we don't have time to go through this but there is considerable evidence that ross' vote ted been purchased. his seat had been purchased. when senators were elected by state legislators and the scanned the state legislature had been bribed and elected ross, and there were a number of transactions, political patronage and possibly cash bribes related to ross adjusting his boat was for sale and he sold it.

this is a piece of the story that i think i know people will take notice of. the prospected to have one johnson is difficult. he faced terrifically different-- difficult problems. almost as tough at this civil war itself but because of who he was in the way he approached them, his intestine inistic view is really narrow minded. i think he ended up making many of those situations worse and it was a terrific missed opportunity for the country. >> as i was reading your book david, i almost lost track of how many times they tried to impeach johnson. can you give us just a thumbnail survey of what it was like? >> well, they started, people started talking about impeachment-- when he had been in office for about a year. we had never impeach the president of course.

there had been for judicial in-- impeachments, only two of which had been successful and there were hearings that were quite scandalous. they tried to tie johnson to the booth assassination itself, which was really ridiculous. and, it seemed that the impingement thing would i and every time the impeachment bush threatened to die johnson would do something outrageous that would cause it to flameout began. wiley, at the end of the 1867 an impeachment resolution was brought to the floor of congress, the house of representatives and was defeated. by a pretty substantial margin. the majority of the republicans, who did not like johnson, voted against impeachment at that time and it was really an act of will, an act of determination on johnson's part to insist the

impeachment be revived when in the early 1868 he attempted to replace edmund stanton the us secretary of war with a very unacceptable candidate and did so in a way that flattened the laws that were in effect of the time. congress had clearly signaled that if you didn't do anything outrageous they would not impeach him and he could not help himself and went ahead and did it, so without that, thank goodness otherwise it would not it had a book. [laughter] >> our third author is the writer of to pirg mihm books. the first is what i say is the best lincoln prison that you can give to yourself during this bicentennial year because it is the real lincoln. orville vernon burton has edited the essential link in speeches in correspondence, so put this on your shelf. we are not going to discuss it

because we are going to turn instead to the age of lincoln. you have heard something about the age before the civil war. you have heard about the aftermath. what is unique about burton's perspective is that he sees the whole era before, during and after the war and far beyond really as turning on lincoln himself. he calls it the age of lincoln and james mcpherson for example says that this is a bold, new, pieces of the civil war era. so, tell us why do you see this whole era at the age of lincoln? >> what matters profoundly here, when a period of history is set to begin and and, particularly evident when you are discussing america's 19th century, what it would do is to put together complex come the civil war and reconstruction and to blend all

these strands together i used abraham lincoln as the ideas that were flowing in the period, particularly lincoln's ideas. particularly something we have not looked at as much as i think we should and that is what were the influences, good and bad that lincoln's ideas had after the civil war. i think we are fascinated by the civil war. it is the bloodiest war in our history. lead is also of course i think about the central issues that are about the identity of america and brings it to start relief. that is, what is america, to use the phrase that bill clinton was rather notorious for and changed a little bit is about the word us, not is but us and i think that is what lincoln is about, who we are indeed is critical in this time period.

abraham lincoln said that the central act of his administration, the greatest thing he did was the emancipation proclamation. i hate to disagree with lincoln but i think in fact, while it is important, what was really critical was lincoln's understanding of liberty and freedom and personal freedom. abraham lincoln basically expanded and went beyond the founding fathers and andrew jackson's idea of liberty and freedom in incorporated that into the constitution. in other words i like to say that he took what was our mission statement, the declaration of independence and put it into in fact the constitution. it changed not only the united states but the world itself, what we think about his personal liberty and freedom. if you look of the constitution at that time it is a guarantee to the states to say, if you reconstruction amendment, 13,

14th and 15th amendments then you see the guarantee of personal freedom that has inspired the world ever since. one of the things that i argue in the book is, it is not just slavery which of course this central and the cause of the civil war but people were concerned about a lot of other things. early on they were worried about the west, and by the west they meant illinois at that time could fit in with different sorts of people. that was as much of a concern of slavery which early on was a national phenomenon. then it becomes something that think we have missed and not paid enough attention to, unfettered capitalism, wealth. what is going to happen now that leading intellectuals were concerned how did you have a virtual citizenship particularly with new types of immigrants were coming in working for wages, not whether it had been before not come in not working for themselves so could their

vote the control? we missed too easily abraham lincoln who was a plague and henry clay move from the idea that one had to have property voting to enter jackson's meal could suffrage and i think that was a real dilemma for people as to how this republic could work. we also forget just how much all the rest of the world wanted this idea of democracy. all the major monarchs did. it was a very critical time i think, probably the most critical time we have had in this country. we bramley ginn and his generation did what i wish we did more of. they read their history and they knew that every single-- to put together a democracy fell apart when people became more wealthy and the distributions of well. it parallels our own times remarkably in terms of the extraordinary distribution of wealth. you had some that were just extraordinarily wealthy as we

are changing and so many people being left kind at the same time. i also center religion which i think it's critical. in the 19th century understand wide men would go off and die in the civil war and to also understand why women would send men off to die in the civil war. to understand the 19th century you have to understand religion. it is a time of millennialism. this radical believe that you can bring on the millennium and bring back jesus christ, keep good reform american society in prepared as utopia for the return of christ, and that leads to all sorts of reforms including what on is written about in terms of abolitionism as one part but a central and critical part. i sort of call on what i call the age of lincoln with this millennialism and i have seen, and it takes much less influence after the civil war but with the

populist parties, 1896 campaign ad see a real strain that is there and it is also the last major political party to the modern civil rights movement, to in fact, two-point their rights of african-american at the forefront in the struggle for them. the civil war was about in fact not only the american but the fate of african-americans. that is what is the role of people who were perceived as different in a democracy or republic which leads to the ideas that we struggle with with race today, the unfinished business of reconstruction, the unfinished business of what lincoln would have done as president, which i have strong ideas about and i think i could make a good totality circumstances case in a very different world with lincoln's commitment to the rule of law an opportunity for people.

lincoln ciccone change on race, which i try to document in what i call the central plank in his own words, as he learned more about race and african-americans in different ways. those are just some of the ideas. there are a lot more that i could talk about. there is a web site. i would encourage you to look at it, call the age of lincoln thought, or the age of lincoln thought come where i have a lot of discussion. i tried to marry the internet with a book and you can e-mail if you have any questions. we don't have time here. i will respond. also i should warn you just how much stock you want to put in my ideas. i am someone who was a historian in the american south, became a lincoln scholar and moved to south carolina. [laughter] >> well, the age of lincoln is

all about connecting the dots, and it is a fascinating kind of exercise as you see the.leading to lincoln and then the ship occurring and then the.leading pass. let me just ask you, you mentioned the populist party. let's give a name. tom watson, who i think epitomizes how do you.mac leading conflicting directions. tom watson it is an interesting character. he in fact was a populist out of georgia and it is the southern populists with the most radical race relations what we think of and a good way as quality and opportunity. there has been a number of studies but the classic, though dated, is a great book, one of the great classic books in history, which looks at how

watson actually changes from this very idealistic crusader for athletes black rights and political rights, very much in a lincoln manner into later what we think of is the southern demagogue who plays the race card. i want to say the civil war, there to legacies that we have not looked at very well and one is the hatred inspired. we forget what war does to people. war, you have to learn to hate your enemy i think because you are killing them and wilson in his 1962 pager ruddick lord told us about this then veneer on civil society comes off with four come is that we haven't paid enough attention and we like to look at our american history so with this happy happen medic few. the other thing that comes out is idealism north and south like with watson but also in illinois. i think it is a legacy of

lincoln that in fact changes illinois from a state which had its black vote to in fact when the repeal as part of the moving away from the quality that came about with lincoln in the civil war. they repealed these amendments or at least made them an effective and said they are defective for equal rights for blacks. a state like illinois in the past is owned, the state code to say that after a-- african-americans have equal rights and we talked about the great black migration after the civil war and later that we see african-americans coming to illinois in chicago and other places for jobs. i think they also are true heirs of the age of lincoln and the rule of law and there was the opportunity to have the vote and equal treatment in illinois that allowed one of the reasons we have had so many people move

from the south to a state like illinois. there was change with this legacy of lincoln. >> i have the code moderator, wileen mackevich who for many years with the executive director of the chicago humanities festival and is now serving a national role as the executive director of the abraham lincoln bicentennial commission. do you have thoughts on the sleeping. that we have heard before, during and after the civil war? >> i have been fascinated by the stories that we have heard today about abolitionism in chicago and about the impeachment trial of andrew johnson, of course vernon burton's view of the age of lincoln which goes beyond 1896. really when you come down to what people were looking at in this bicentennial year, we can talk about the economy because we are in the midst of the worst recession if you will, or the

worst recession certainly since the last depression so there has been a great deal of concern among historians to look at lincoln's economy and there we find some extraordinary things because of course as dornan points out, lincoln always was a quick. ed he believes in deficits. he believes in public works. he would have strongly supported the extraordinary obama campaign. he strongly what it supported funding for museums because he believed people should know their history, otherwise it wouldn't happen that we could be a civil society so the issue of the economy is very important. lincoln's education is something that is very important. we have them and you went to school for a yourself yet the turn set to be our greatest president, the greatest theologian but most importantly the most beautiful writer we have ever had. so where does that come from? the thought is that maybe the idea of lifelong learning would

want to examine the processes. of course it doesn't take into account that lincoln was the geniuses and we are going to have all geniuses in our public school in order to say one year of schooling was an up. religion, a complicated story that for an increase is well in his book but also take into mind that lincoln never uses jesus christ. he talks about so many things, forgiveness and caring that we talk about in terms of christianity but the idea of using jesus christ is just not there. then the thought is, was he really a question? the thought is among many people that if jesus is central to christianity then maybe lincoln was an observer who sat in the pew with his wife in the presbyterian church but he may not have been christian. alta malley, the ultimate way, the truthful way, the real way that we at this 200 for the year look at lincoln is the the prism

of race. i like to say well, lincoln probably would have voted for obama, but my greater question is what obama have voted for lincoln? what i mean very simply is, what with obama have found in lincoln? it is no secret that he would have found a man from kentucky, a man from a border state who uses the n word, who does all kinds of things that would mark him as a racist. perhaps not a racist in 19th century terms but in 21st century terms, definitely a racist. what happens is the most extraordinary thing. a friendship that emerges over time with perhaps the greatest beach maker of the 19th century, frederick douglass, the man who freed-- the friendship grows. lincoln says he wants him to, he

wants to know from frederick douglass what he thinks of the second inaugural. he invites into the white house. all of these things, the friendship is singularly of pardon and put together by people who trace the story of frederick douglass and lincoln but essentially this is the way i choose to answer the question about what obama have voted for lincoln and would vote-- lincoln have voted for obama? if lincoln was capable of this great friendship, and he clearly was, then obama could give seen in lincoln a man who was capable of appreciating this multi-cultural society. he would appreciate a society in which we have a latino population that is making its own sense of history, and where else is a better place to start than with lincoln and his speeches in the kind of self-made man that suggest that

everybody have a dream, the american dream and we could fill fill it today as we did in lincoln's time, so those are the thoughts that i have as executive director, where i have been privileged to look at in here from perhaps hundreds of authors who are writing about lincoln in his 200th birthday year but to examine the question of lincoln and race. clearly it is not where we would have wanted him to be at the very beginning but he does give his life for the right of blacks to vote and that is something we think it's hard to remove from him. those are my thoughts, gary. >> thank you wileen. now we will open them up to questions from the floor. does anyone have a question? otherwise i will ask one myself for what you were thinking about a question. yes. come on up. >> i have some.

this "land of lincoln" has over 100-- four obama cannot legalese leap except in jail. how much did abraham lincoln contribute, is he guilty or not, for that? the second question, could andrew jackson agreed? the third question, was lincoln nab is to put god on the money? >> you know what? i think there is a question for each of us. let's start with the one that i think is the briefest question. could ander johnson read? >> that could take a long time. he certainly could read. it is a wonderful story. he was self-taught and i was struck by wileen's thought. thaddeus stevens was a great johnson hater and was told

johnson was a self-made man and stephen said that is good to hear otherwise god almighty had a lot to answer for. [laughter] johnson taught himself to read by hanging out in the tailor shop, rather like barber shops are a center for conversation and mail company, and he had more trouble writing. that was always a lifelong problem and in contrast with lincoln but he was it very smart fellow in the things he knew he knew extremely well. he could recite long columns. he understood, he was familiar with classical history. not the greatest of mind of lincoln but it shows you that it's motivated person can educate himself pretty well. even back in poverty in the 1830's and 40's. >> tom, let me ask you the question, can lincoln be

implicated in some of the continuing issues regarding race? >> there is no question that he accepted, he grew up in a state where, as they indicated in 1848, the amendment to the constitution racism was prevalent and well he articulated a vision of the quality and reached into the declaration of independence to do that, there was obviously some tension there. in the debates douglas would chide lincoln in say, how can you say all men are created equal? that can't mean the black man. that was written by jefferson and jefferson owned slaves but lincoln had an answer for that. he said jefferson was also the author of the northwest ordinance which said there shall be no slavery in the northwest territory, said the idea of the founders was that the ideal is for going to be equal in the act but slavery on the road to extinction. so, it is not a happy story. there is clearly the charleston

debate. you will find racist sounding statements of lincoln but he was being goaded all the time by douglas. you must mean that you want to marry blacks and all that and that certainly was not something people were prepared for and lincoln paid lip service to it. >> you touched before on the question of lincoln's religion. and they take you don't believe he is an atheist. what about his belief in providence? is that they believed in god? please. >> let me just add what tom said. i think we have to be careful looking from the 21st century to the 19th century balck raise. the amazing thing, i think it is a better story because for years the methodology was he is a an abolitionist, he learns from his experience. he grows tremendously on the

issue of race. i argue that the end of his life he is leading the nation to a better place on race but it is his exposure to learning with other people in clearly he is the head of the nation. he is pretty well crucified for a speech he gave right before the lincoln-douglas debates, right here in chicago where he gets up and says we are going to do away basically with everything in the declaration of independence. all men are created equal and he is crucified by douglas and everyone else. i think that tells us where he was and where he was getting. he was always leading the nation to come a very quickly on lincoln and religion. lincoln was a very private man about particularly his faith. i have argued that lincoln in fact was the greatest theologian of the 19th century because he understood god. and that he read god as the jewish read the old testament and the corker relationship as opposed to the more dominant

protestant idea that came out of the great awakening, the second great awakening of an individual relationship with god. his own believe that reconciled his faith, that he in fact was being used by god, had been called by god to do something special and if he didn't do it wouldn't get done. lincoln knew his bible so well and read it so well. we grow up in sunday school or be read about moses and the burning bush. god says i will go with you to israel and he goes and does that or jonah who has to get-- does go but the bible is just full of instances in the theology of where god calls people and they don't do it and it does not get done or there is 1,000 years or 2,000. lincoln new those. i have an example on the web

site. lincoln even though he was never, ever if i can tell ever said this was god's will, even in the second inaugural when the war is over. he says if this is god's will, he understood in fact that we don't know god's will but at the same time thought he was being used as part of god's will and if he did not follow through it may not happen or happen later. it may not answer your question but i tried to deal with this and essentially what i was trying to get that, what lincoln himself, his ideas in relationship with god. he and jefferson davis are fascinating because he looked at both of them, jefferson davis was not very releases either but when you think about their responsibilities for all of these deaths and suffering i think they look to a higher power and a way to explain their lives. >> we are reaching the end of the program. do you have a final word? >> a couple of comments about

the subject of race. it is such a complicated subject and lincoln is a man of mystery. he was also a man who was very comfortable with the fact that he could change his mind. w.e.b. dubois said he loved him so much because he could be inconsistent. he could grow. he could be the person who did not support the idea that the fugitive slave law in wisconsin which he had declared to be unconstitutional and that the same time he could detests slavery. it the same time he could fight the war over slavery and realize emancipation was what he really was all about in the insel the complicated story of race is at least as complicated as religion, perhaps the economy is less so and perhaps the educations story is less so lincoln is ultimately a man of mystery. we will not only be celebrating him and looking forward to understanding can we even more

this 200th year and perhaps on into the 250th birthday as well. >> thank you very much. >> thank you for attending today's discussion and supporting the chicago tribune's commitment to literacy. the book signing will take place in the artz room. as you exit the room to your left, it is the first room on your left. [applause] >> our tate coverage from day two of the 2009 "chicago tribune" printers row lit fest continues after this break. coming up next, paul butler, author of "let's get free," a hip hop theory of justice. >> childrens other emma walton hamilton, what is the key to writing a children's book? >> gosh, i would say respecting

children as readers and not talking down to them. if any thing, it is all basically about trusting their judgment and their intelligence and hopefully speaking to what interests them and what they are passionate about. >> what our children interested in? >> just about everything that adults are interested in, the world around them, growing up, learning new things, music, arts, sports, you name it. all the same things we are interested in. >> how many children's books have you written? >> i have written, just now about to release the 17th children's book that i actually coe right with my mother, believe it or not. >> what is it like working with your mother as the co-author? >> it is a great pleasure. we are both very opinionated ladies and we thought mother daughter working together could be tricky but happily we played

to each other's strengths and we have a great time working together and it is turned out very well. >> your mother is julie andrews. julie andras what part of the book did you write? >> what part of the-- >> what part of the book the right? >> the structure as much as any thing and i think, tell me if i am wrong, i think i more the flights of fancy. i do circling the image making, the openings, the closings. >> the big picture. >> id the big picture and emma says we must finish the end of the first act, where do we go from there? she makes me focus on the shape of the book but the actual damages and things are probably my strength and emma's is the structure as much as anything. we seem to complement each other i think. >> why did you start writing children's books? >> i started as a complete

surprise. i started as, it was an answer to a game that i was playing with my children and i had to pay for it. i was the first to lose the game. i said, what will my forfeit be? my oldest daughter, jennifer, said right as a story because i used to love to scribble and right things. i really honestly thought, i can just write a small thing like an aesop's fable or something very short and then i thought no, this is my step wad daughter and my be wonderful way to help us blonde. i came up with a little idea of and kept flashing it out in the next thing i knew there was the book. if it hadn't been for blake, my husband, blake edwards, i don't think it would have finished. i did not know what i was doing but he kept saying, it doesn't matter. it is a sweet idea, keep the page is coming. that was 40 years ago just

about, so i have been writing ever since. >> how many children's books have you authored? >> we have done 17 together. >> then you have done for in your own. >> for my own plessy memoir, so we go back and forth really and we have more coming. >> and emma walton hamilton do you live close to each other? do you e-mail each other? >> unfortunately we live most of the year on opposite coasts and we always work best when we are together and love to be together whenever we can but we have become very reliant on modern technology and we used webcam for a lot of our work sessions. we log on together at the same time. >> poor mom has to give up three hours earlier. and l.a. she would say mom, 10:00 is happily to my morning. can you give up at 7:00? eyes i think i can.

>> she does very well. >> i do my best and i am not as littered on my computer as she is. >> is there a certain length that children's books should be? >> say that again. >> is there a certain length? >> depending on the age. >> what age you write for? >> with tremendous audacity i have to say, we write picture books. we right young adult novels. we right chapter books for middle grade readers in their latest book is an anthology for all ages, a poetry anthology called the julie andrews collection of poems, songs and lullabies. >> this one is actually quite that. >> the first book with our lovely new publishers, little brown who are part of the group, they actually came to us and said would you consider doing an anthology for us? >> we had so much fun, we are doing another one.

>> yes we are and it was enormous fun to compile. obviously it is our favorite book. my father instilled in me a love of book and i hopefully instill a-- so they here we are asked to put down our favorites, and the first choices, which were about 20, were really easy and after that we had the most wonderful journey of discovery as we found what we have really loved. >> digging back into our memories and their family anthologies. >> we eventually came down to nine separate teams and before each team there is a piece that we wrote explaining why we loved this theme. let's aidid optimism or the countryside or nature. >> and why each joyce within that theme resonates for us,

what memory associates for as. >> we have boyes as the family exchange poems on special days and holidays and so want so we sort of challenge each other to write a poem. we added a few more. >> emma walton hamilton you have got some of your children here, grandchildren. are they in your focus group for children's books? >> absolutely. >> i think you were when i was writing my own and then of course now all of the grandchildren. >> not only our focus group. they help us know what is working and nonworking of course but they also provide a tremendous source of ideas for us and many of our books were inspired-- >> such as? >> the dump the dump truck series which was the first series we collaborated on which was inspired by my son, sam was a passionate truck glover and would only read books about

trucks. we had trouble finding those that were a little more than fiction, so we wrote that series for him and we are working on a new series right now with little girls in mind, inspired by my daughter. >> and, ms. enders you have also written a memoir. the first half of your life basically. >> it goes up to my coming out to the west coast of america for the very first time and my first movie, but it is about the first part of my life. woytek the long time to do. i would never have done it if she wouldn't have been so generous with their time to push me and make me do it in helping with that. >> is there a second half or a second third coming up? >> a lot of people are asking that. to be honest with you i don't know at this point. it took me a long, long time to

write the first part, so maybe one day. >> emma walton hamilton, what is your favorite children's book? >> that i have written or that i have read? >> either one. >> the book that was for me informative book growing up what is the phantom tollbooth. that was my favorite. and people often ask us which is our favorite of the books were britain and it is so hard to answer. it is like saying which is your favorite chocolate in a box of chocolates are which is your favorite child? you love them all for different reasons but i would say i'm particularly excited about the one we just finished, the poetry anthology which is a real labor of love and beautifully produced. >> it is given us an enormous amount of pleasure to put it together. i love the music and the poetry and find the love of the songs i have been associated with or even songs that i love have

sometimes the most beautiful lyrics and i usually choose songs for ericks blessedness performance and then the melody, if it is a beautiful melody everything comes together so i will always felt the lyrics to songs are poems in themselves so i concluded in the book and i'm hoping children will discover for themselves or adults, welch that is a beautiful home and then realize it is a song. >> and want to go listen to the music. >> asthma others finally, is an important teach young children to read or be exposed to reading? >> we are passionate advocates of literacy and for literacy. we do everything we can in the respect. >> i would say it is not so much incumbent upon parents to teach their children to learn. they may well learn that in

school. what is incumbent upon us is to teach them to love reading into read to them in with them as much as possible and that way they will grow to be lifelong readers themselves. >> it is called raising bookworms and it is about that, raising children to love and find joy in reading in keeping constant as the school years go by and how difficult it becomes when assignments are handed to you and sometimes they are very boring, how you keep a child love of reading a life and her book is just wonderful. >> thanks mom. >> if people are interested in finding that book or other children's books you have written in this newest one, where should they go? >> they can go to our web site which is julie andrews' collection.com. for any of the books in the collection and also raising bookworms thought, is the site for the reading but. >> emma walton hamilton ender

mother, julie andrews, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> now more from this year's "chicago tribune" printers row lit fest. during this event author paul butler talks about his book, "let's get free," a hip hop theory of justice. >> i am delighted to be here to have this opportunity to discuss with paul butler his new book, "let's get free," a hip hop theory of justice. i have read the book twice and found it an extraordinarily provocative, interesting and accessible, and i very much recommend it to people who wants a fresh perspective on some of the issues concerning our criminal justice system. so i would like to begin, paul, by saying a little bit about your background and then about the story you tell in the book

which is quite both moving and refueling. you were raised, as you put it, by a single mom in a poor black neighborhood on the south side of chicago. you then went on to attend the gail college of harvard law school. then you had a prestigious court shipmen worked for a well known law firm and became a federal prosecutor in what you described as the most elite unit of the united states department of justice. and then you were arrested and prosecuted for assault. although you were acquitted you write that your arrest and prosecution hurt you in ways that you still have not touched. i would be curious if you could elaborate on how that experience changed your understanding of the american criminal justice system. >> first of all let me say it is an honor to be here in a special honor to have this session moderated by professor stone. i have admired his work for a long time. he writes especially eloquently

about civil liberties and part of the concern, my concern about our criminal justice system is a civil libertarian concern that the government is way too powerful and uses its, ms. uses its power and i speak from when sino is professor stone mentioned. i was a prosecutor enduring the time i was making my living mainly by putting african-american men in prison, i got arrested myself. so it did fundamentally change the way that i looked at the criminal justice system. in part, because i was arrested for a crime of which i was in dissent. that fact turned out to be probably not the most important in terms of the ultimate result, which was that i was acquitted. i was declared not guilty after a jury trial.