types of legal work in the united states there maybe a hook for jurisdiction. i think the mere surface of papers to my mind goes against a lot of and precedents and allowing application of the law in that particular instance but i don't think that should be tracked from the fact that i think everyone who's involved in this little area really does think that the free-speech protection act dustin the right approach and the most promising approach to come out of this. again our disagreements are probably at the margins. >> i think since we are talking up the first amendment, which really is as both andrews pointed out unique to the united states. and it is unique i came to live in the united states partly because it has this provision in the constitution. i think that to have a perfect

law, you never have a perfect law, but i think it is important to have near-perfect and let the court later work it out but it's important to pass this bill as soon as possible because it is our free-speech, our society and political stability dependent on this. >> all right. with that i would like to thank all the members of the panel for this discussion and thank you you all for attending. >> thank you. [applause] >> rachel ehrenfeld is the director for american center on democracy. she's also the author of evo money and narcoterrorism. for more information, visit the acdemocracy.com. this summer book tv is asking what are you reading.

>> sir david frost what are you reading this summer? >> "frost/nixon" by david frost, the autobiography -- that isn't true what i am reading this summer is mainly on holidays by go from relaxing reading in terms of thrillers and that sort of thing. i used to read robert a lot and james patterson and more serious reading i am doing william safires on political speeches. and that's what i'm reading for real. >> thank you. how do you select the books that you read? >> in the seconds i have in an airport. i'm racing to the airport, hope there isn't a long queue and hope i come out with the one i meant to have.

>> thank you. >> to see more summer reading lists and other program information, visit our web site at booktv.org. david kessler former commissioner of the u.s. food and drug at ministration explains how american bodies and minds have been reprogrammed by too much sugar, salt and john. politics and prose bookstore in washington, d.c. posted decedent. it lasts about one hour. >> it is very special to be here at politics and prose. to carla and barbara, the owners, the fact is this is without a doubt my favorite bookstore in the whole world. [applause] there's another reason why this is so special, and for those of you who are not part of the food and drug administration who are here, and told me if you would,

this is a very special week and a very special people here that i've had the privilege over my life to be able to work with and in a week as you just heard where the united states congress voted 79 senators in the affirmative, and 307 members of the house of representatives in favor of fda regulation of tobacco. there are people here. i can't name all of you who spent much of your adult lives working on this, and my hat goes off to all of you. thank you will for what you have done. [applause] let me tell you the journey now,

tobacco took 15 years since the day we started it took 15 years to get to where we are, and along that path --, one of you n the audience i still remember to this moment. we went around the table and i asked people what they thought and you heard what you expect to hear, it's a fool's errand, it's the big money, it's political suicide. yes, it's the right thing to do. but if you do it it's going to take all the energy and everything you have, and then one of you looked at me and said if he were willing to take on tobacco i'm willing to spend the rest of my career working on this. that taught me more than anything else one could ever

imagine. and along the way, 15 years you will excuse me but we had the opportunity to do a couple of other things while tobacco was cooking and many of you continue to work on a very hard. i was sitting in my office about seven years ago and was up at yale with a group of residents and fellows and having learned from tobacco and having lived that i asked a very basic question. what to do we know, what's the evidence -- if you want to stay alive what are the things you can do really to prevent dying from the major killers, the major killers three-quarters of us are going to die from cancer, heart disease or stroke. and tobacco is easy. the number one preventable cause certainly when we started, the number one preventable cause

today. but what are the other things you could do when you look at cardiovascular disease, stroke, and certainly many forms of cancer? and i noticed something when we were pulling are all the articles, had a wonderful library in helping me put the articles, and i noticed along the way as she was doing this over a three month period she lost 40 pounds. [laughter] because all the articles on prevention -- we know that excess weight isn't good for us, but it was striking the contribution to health. just one very basic numbers. ten years ago there were four cases per 1,000 of type two diabetes in this country to get four cases per 1,000. today, there are nine cases per 1,000. we spent in $2,007,000,000,000

on drugs for type two diabetes. today, we spend $13 billion on drugs. type ii diabetes i could write excess weight in the medical chart because that is the mechanism that contributes mightily. we all want health reform. no one in this isn't talking about health care reform. but how are we going to be able to get a handle on these costs? when we can't get a handle on something as basic as excess weight. and what's going on? i asked my friend, kathryn, at the centers for disease control, how has weight changed over the decades? you know, adult weight, tell me if you go back into the 60's what was going on, what's going on today and what's different? and it was striking when she sent me those graphs, i saw back

in the 60's you entered your 20s you might gain a few pounds into your forties and fifties but you were relatively stable. a new plateau and then you lost a few pounds in your sixties and seventies and senior years and 80's. but the wait was relatively stable over an adult lifetime. today, you enter your adult years and the week keeps on rising certainly until your fifties. it doesn't let go. but what is the most striking is when you enter your 20s, back in the 60's if you were here, today you are entering the 20's and here. so as with tobacco, excess weight of really does begin in childhood and adolescence at least for a significant part of the population. but what to do about this if i

get and exercise work everybody would be doing it. was so i started trying to understand why was this so difficult? why couldn't we get a handle on it? what was going on in this country? and that's been the journey the last seven years. so, one night i am watching a daily rerun of oprah. [laughter] and i'm listening to this woman, very well-educated, very well-dressed, very successful in all aspects of her life, and she was being interviewed by dr. phill. don't get me started on dr. phill, please. [laughter] but i was listening to this woman, and what she said was i eat when my husband leaves for work in the morning. i eat before he comes home at night. i eat when i'm happy. i eat when i'm sad. i eat when i'm hungry.

i eat when i'm not hungry. and in that moment she said i don't like myself. so why was sitting there listening and trying to listen as a clinician, as a doctor. because i don't think that we as a medical profession have been thinking or doing their research to really understand why was this woman who is successful in all aspects of her life doing things that she didn't want to be doing and to link them any way knowing that it wasn't good for her? what was going on? what was going on clinically? what was going on scientifically? and that was the journey the last seven years that i wanted to understand. so with colleagues in a number of great institutions let me give you -- let me just give you four pieces of the science and then try to put together this puzzle, this mystery. why does that chocolate chip cookie have so much power over

me? that really is the question. i could relate to that woman on oprah. i have suits in every size. [laughter] and i probably gained and lost my body weight over my lifetime several times over. what was going on with that woman? let me give you the pieces of the science. colleagues of the university of washington published a free journal it was called the constructing the vanilla milkshake. [laughter] what you think it is about a vanilla milkshake that drives in take the? do you think it's the sugar? do you think it's the fact? do you think it's the flavor? how many of you think it's the sugar? and raise your hands. how many of you think it's the fact? how many of you think it's the flavor. let me tell you how we actually did the experiment. very simple experiment because we wanted to know what drives intake.

how do you measure that in humans and animals? well, in animals what we were looking for is how hard an animal would work before the -- to get the food. that test, some of you are shaking your head because you understand. that test called self administration is the study the fda used to control drugs. but it's how hard the motivation an animal would work. make the animal first press wants and give them the food. then they must press for times and then they have to press 16 times, than 32 times, than 64 times, then they've got to press 128 times before they get the food and then you get a sense with the break point is. what with the work hardest for? the answer was sugar. sugar was the main driver but when you add to that sugar you add fat. it's synergistic. it's more.

second piece of science. with my colleagues in italy, gitano, one of the great pharmacologists, gitano has dedicated his career to understanding how jobs hijack the plane. he studies amphetamines, he studies cocaine. and what we know is when you administer drugs like amphetamine and cocaine when you see is a bump in the brain circuitry involving dopamine. every time you get infamy or cocaine you see this elevation in the brain's dopamine, and dopamine is the chemical responsible not for pleasure. dopamine is responsible for blocking and now were attention. that preoccupation. it dates the mural circuits of what interest working memory and where you end up thinking about. and what gitano found, when we

were working together -- i said let's test food. it was always assumed drugs elevate dopamine levels. food, we get a little bump the first time but then you don't get the comp. i said let's take food -- let's not just take sugar but let's make food highly palatable. this multi century mixture. and what happens to dopamine? and gitano -- i remember the e-mail, the subject line blahs important results. dopamine continues to be elevated every time -- if you make food, take sugar and fat together rather than just schricker you get elevations in brain dopamine on a repeated basis. it doesn't habituate. third piece of the science, i want to know how many people -- i want to understand this woman on oprah, what was i hearing and how common was that in the

population? let me give three characteristics. let me describe them to you. the first one is a loss of control in the face of highly palatable foods. hard time resisting a favorite food. number two, lack of speciation, lack of feeling for, having a hard time stopping. third, preoccupation, thinking about between meals and sometimes thinking about food when you're eating, as you're eating your thinking about what you're going to be eating next. [laughter] sort of bizarre but those three characteristics, loss of control in the face of highly probable foods, like association, a preoccupation, thinking about food. those three characteristics. sometimes i see that to people and there's a small percentage of the population who have no idea what i'm talking about.

they look at me with absolute blank stares. those are the people i think we should be studying. those are the ones that are the most interesting scientific -- [laughter] but we look at the epidemiology and with mccaul week at ucsf what we did is looked at how many people self report those characteristics and we found 15% of obese individuals, 30% of overweight individuals and 20% of healthy wheat individuals scored very high on all three characteristics. so certainly more people who are bigger have those characteristics but a significant percentage of people have those characteristics and if you extrapolate, and there's risks of extrapolation that turns out to be some 70 million americans who self report a loss

of control, lack of stacy asian or preoccupation with thinking about food. last piece of science and this is most interesting. we took those individuals who had the consolation of characteristics, what we call conditioned hyper eating because those are the characteristics of a condition and driven behavior and we study them. we studied the imaging. we designed the experiment in which two phases. the first is the anticipation, not actually eating the food but the power comes from what? the taste? yes, but also the anticipation of food the queue. every time i land at san francisco airport as soon as the plane hits the taxi way i start thinking about these chinese dumplings. [laughter] the plan has to just land in the

taxiway and i start thinking about it because this place in the food court has these. if i could only make it to baggage claim it's out of my working memory. and i'm walking down powell street in san francisco and i start thinking about chocolate covered pretzels. why? because six months earlier i had been on that street on powell street and i went into a place and i had forgotten all about it but just the location, that fought entered my mind and the faults of wanting so what we did in this experiment with dr. small is people with a loss of control, cc asian with food and skean their brain. first week cued them and gave them the smell. sometimes it's location, just

getting in your car can be a cue. the car just drives and, once you get in the car you start thinking about what you're going to eat because you've been there. there's always a past experience that drives the anticipation. but the first part of the experiment was we queued people and what we saw in people had these characteristics of piper eating syndrome, it's not the disease, but it's very much a normal part of our makeup. what we saw is people with this condition high breeding have hyper activations during the anticipation phase in the amygdala and reward pathway of their brain compared to control and was pronounced. and what we further saw was when they actually consumed the food, when they tasted the food that

elevation in the amygdala which we always thought was just the que remained elevated. so, the mural pathways remained active medium negative activated until all of the food is gone. so for the first time we have evidence, certainly evidence is emerging that lack of control, hard time resisting, it's not a matter of willpower. literally the brains of millions of people are being hijacked by these accused, by this highly palatable food. let me put it together. "the washington post," "the washington post" outed me because i wanted to know -- i wanted to understand the

science, but i also wanted to go inside the industry. and we worked when we were at fda, a number of you together, we worked -- you know that nutrition facts panel that we worked on. someone in the food industry said to me, looked at me and said kessler, the obesity epidemic is all your fault. and i looked at him and i said what are you talking about? she said you folks at the fda were so successful with that nutrition facts panel that you kept some the check, was being put in food in the supermarket. what happened was exploded in restaurants and that's where the real problem lies. they know, the food industry knows what the inputs are. they understand the outputs. fat and sugar, fat and sugar,

fat and sugar and salt. they call it the of three points of cake. i felt i was eating to fill me up, to say seagate. fat and sugar, fat and salt, fat, sugar and salt stimulate intake. they make you work harder. it's not just conditioned behavior. it's conditioned and driven behavior. so i wanted to know you can tell what is on processed foods in the supermarket. you can see the label would go to a restaurant and try to understand what is in them. and so i went dumpster diving for about six months because it is not easy to find out when you just ask the major chains what's in the food, and even for me as a physician someone -- i was in charge of regulating food. it was on the opening. the grilled marinated chicken, you think it's healthy. it's based in sugar and fat

syrup. our foods are injected with needles. pick any favorite american negative. pick an appetizer. picked buffalo wings. what are they when you think about it? >> [inaudible] >> it's the fatty part of the chicken, fried usually in a manufacturing plant, reef right in the restaurant. the red sauce, what is it? fat and sugar. the white creamy sauce, fat and salt. sure, it tastes good. what is it? fat on a fat on fact, sugar on fat and salt. i could go through an entire baskets. the food industry has said all we are doing is giving consumers

what they want. that's the argument. we now know that what's going on is that our brains are being hijacked. let's put this together clinically so everyone understands the cycle of consumption. how does it work? past memory, past experiences. that's learning, those learning circuits of the brain get activated so you get queued. that nicu activates the brain circuitry. it arouses you, it grabs your attention and locks you in. and then you consume the food and in the next time you get queued what do you do? you do it again and every time you engage in that cycle, you strengthen the demuro circuits and come back for more. so you all remember pavlov and the conditional behavior's. but this is more than condition

behavior's. this is the science of the last decades. it's conditioned and driven behavior. because it's not just learning circuits. novation circuits. try to stop that cycle in the middle. you know that inner dialogue. once you have been queued, that inner dialogue, yes, i would love it, no it's not good for me. yeah, that would be good. no, i shouldn't have it. that inner dialogue, what does it do? it only increases the real world value of the food. you try to stop -- this is the difference between conditioned, you try to suppress that fought and increase their reward value and end up wanting it more and that's the stuff of of sessions -- obsessions and greetings. >> what's been the business plan? what's in the business plan of modern american food company?

is to take fat, sugar and salt, put it on every corner, make it available 24/7 and make it socially acceptable to eat any time of day. how did the french -- how did the french control their intake? they always have highly palatable food. what's the difference? >> [inaudible] >> the culture, right? >> i lived there eight years -- [inaudible] external control of human nature we're here as sigmund freud said -- [inaudible] >> so what we've done is we have taken down any barriers. because you can eat any time, because it's socially acceptable. the french commercial with the canadiens, too, the only eight at meals. when i was growing up we tended to eat on meals.

we didn't snap all day long. but what is happening now is that, sugar, salt on every corner available 24/7, and it's acceptable. that's a social norm to eat any time. you could be sitting here eating and nobody would think any different of it. i was invited to talk to a major food manufacturer -- i said let me give you a comparison and we have to be careful with comparison with tobacco but let me see if i can explain how this works. nicotine, nicotine is a moderately reenforcing chemical. if you look at humans and how it works nicotine is moderately reenforcing. add to that nicotine the smoke, the throat scratch, the cellophane crinkling of the pack, the color of the pack, the imagery the industry created during the 40 years it was sexy,

glamorous to smoke. the image of the cowboy, that you needed it. we ended up taking a reenforcing chemical and we made it into a significantly addictive and deadly product. i give you a package of sugar and i say go have a good time. [laughter] you're going to look at me what are you talking about? now add to that sugar, at that, add texture, and temperature, add color, put it on every corner. say you're going to dewitt with your friend, say its entertainment, right? and the emotional loss of advertising, you will love it, you will want it. walking to any of the food courts. walk into the food court at union station. watch the kids. it's a food carnival. what did we end up with? we started with a reinforcing substance and we have made it into one of the great public

health crises of our time. we now know, we have the evidence that the brains of millions of americans are being hijacked by sugar, fat and salt. the industry understands the input and they understand sugar, fat and salt stimulate and they understand the output. they understand people come back for more. they understood neuroscience, probably not but they understood what works. ..

>> if you give aid to year-old excess calories at lunch they will eat fewer calories later in the day. a buy four or five years old after having a sugar, fat, and salt throughout their toddler age four or five year-old's you measure the ability to compensate and they have lost that. they no longer regulate intake. there are children who are four and five who have never been hungary any time during the day because they eat constantly it as if the reward circuits of the brain are

being hijacked and overridden by the home use static mechanism. tobacco for 15 years of efforts it was easy. why? because you can live without tobacco. you don't need tobacco. food? we need that to live. how do we handle that? the problem is in all food. we have taken in food and process it to such an extent that it is predigested in essence we're eating baby food. of you do not believe me just count the number of shoes. the average by eight units to your food about 20 times today it goes down and a wash

because it is so predigested and so process. what happens? when it is made out of the sugar, fat, and salt and hijacks the brain and it it in a sense of moral self stimulation is what it is going on. what is key is powdery succeed? how did this country's succeed over the last 50 years? we finally in the next couple of days when the president sign it? finally, there will be legislation but there was not legislation are regulation, what has been the success so far or the key ingredient? that has accounted for the success over the last 50 years? we did not change the product.

it is the same. education? what was the one thing that philip morris cared more about than anything else? money? and no. image. but what about it? they cared about the socially the social acceptability of their product. that 30 or 40 years ago, and tobacco was a reinforcing a substance. it was positively viewed. they made it something you wanted and something that was your friend. that was the case. what was the real change? what was the real success? why did we collectively do is a country? we change the reinforcing substance for some think that was an negatively balanced. social norms or social acceptability, they changed the product. a social norms have a great

deal to do with how whether we will approach something. that is my friend or that is my enemy. i think the problem is not only very much sugar, fat, and salt but big food. i don't mean just the industry. i mean literally about big food. the challenge from it is as part of a public health challenge as we can imagine. it is not just about us or the woman on oprah. it is about our kids. because once you they down there neural circuitry the only way to deal with it is to laydown new circuitry and the fact is we have to be up front that the old a circuitry never goes away. the greatest gift you can give

somebody is to not have that circuitry that response custom-made two sugar, fat, and salt that has been laid down in the brains of millions of americans. once you recognize our behavior as a nation is conditioned to the learning habits putting sugar, fat, and salt that is the result that is happening to us in our society and has profound implications for policy. as many of you know, in this audience, you have not shied away from big tasks before. and i will tell you 15 years ago a number of us when we started had serious doubts whether tobacco was possible. been getting regulation for the fda.

sometimes things that you think are impossible can really happen. thank you very much [applause] >> do we have time for some questions? >> first of all, thank you doctor and bravo to everyone in this room who helped to walk that the journey on all of our behalf with respect to to back do. -- tobacco think you know, a question for the future when the behavior is individuated, know the behavior we know with diabetes type two statistics and the population already contaminated what of the break being of the and neural

networks and developing literature around relapse behavior and learning that can be taken and related to the various addictions cited now? >> a wonderful wonderful question and we could spend one hour or several hours talking about that question. that is one of the reasons i wrote the book. but it has a degree of sophistication. you recognize by asking that question that the only way to overcome that past learning bling down of the neural circuitry is to put new learning on top of that. i joke what is the definition every have? it is really laying down new learning and new circuitry. let's agree on something, diets will not work. guess they will work short-term but they can't work short-term threat with great

admiration all of those books on diet, i don't think there are many, but some. [laughter] but diets by their very nature can't work. why not? once under circuitry is laid down, i can you lose or take 30 or 60 or 90 days and white knuckle it and lose weight? of course. what will happen when you finish to doing that? you still have the old circuitry you have not laid new learning down on top of the old learning and you go back to your environment and constantly get bombarded with the old cues the only way to deal with this is to add new learning, a new circuitry. how do you do that?

what is the rehab? what is the process? it is not something that you do in one day or one week. i again, people don't want to hear this because what is the magic pill that will work? it will not work. why not? because you are involving the learning memory and have it circuits to the brain. if you start messing around in those circuits with a pharmacological agent it will not just the food it will be significant adverse reactions because we need a learning memory and haven't circuits of the brain to be able to survive and function. understand, this is not, this is not about summit disorder or disease. i thought when i started writing this book would end up in the world of dendrochronology and physiology this is what makes us human because we are wired

to focus on the stimuli as human beings. if a bear walked in here you would stop listening to me i promise. if your child is sick your thinking about your child. four some people this to the leg -- stimuli may be illegal drugs, gambling, sex, but for some of us it is food. at the core of that it is sugar, fat, and salt how do cool down the stimulus? the answer is you have to change how you look at the stimulus abusive that i want to that, it is my friend, there is nothing i can do there is a shift you have to undergo to the point* where you say and look at the stimulus and you say that is not my friend. how do get there? you say that tastes good one

that. it will taste good in the short term but you have to want something more and half due substitute things that you want more. >> i am a general internist and i have been waiting to ask this question for a long time. i exercise every day and i figured we are hard wired to like sugar, fat, and salt it is in the forest when we evolves and we had to live in a situation the semi starvation it was the fastest form of energy and salt was essential to life and that is where it comes from. >> they trigger receptors in the autumn sun three in the mouth from the thalamus to reward center of the brain that is why they are so powerful. the drugs go through the

bloodstream and go to the specific receptors but the real pathway still learning memory that haven't circuits of the brain sugar, fat, and salt is wired. that is live from the evolutionary perspective and that is why they are so powerful. we are hard wired to focus on the most salient stimuli and sugar, fat, and salt because of the receptors and because of the learning. it is learning and conditioning that occurs at two year-old regulates. if you expose them to sugar, fat, and salt they lose the ability to compensate because sugar, fat, and salt becomes especially when it is on every corner, we had barriers in this country for five decades ago the protected us. we only eight at meals.

my hat is off we used to eat real food. now all we're eating is to stimulate ourselves and reward circuits. >> we also have manual labor and women at home cooking food. >> of not getting into the last one i will stay away from. [laughter] but there is no doubt dessert was fat and sugar but there was occasional and certain barriers baidu not have a for breakfast lunch and dinner and throughout the day that is what has changed but making that available and socially acceptable and adding the emotional loss of advertising, look at the ad on tv it is not run nutritional value may be the economic value but look at what it does. it adds the emotional gloss come new-line to you will love

it. it is the social acceptability to once this product and once you have that you only amplify eight to reinforce circuits and amplify the brain's response. thank you for being here. >> good afternoon. thank you for coming. i have a follow-up to your answer to the first question. how do you change the things that you tell yourself with our food i do not want to read this because i will feel badly john or something similar to something down here where that is the first thing that you think of where you look at the picture of chili cheese rise on a menu and you're not thinking i should eat something else because the chili cheese french fries will make me feel bad later and something like this which is

faster we know that is what can say that is gross. i don't want that. it is down here and it is fast three happen as good up here but if you want something fast i do not want the chili cheese french rise because it will make me feel that i would rather eat a big detail because i want that better here not just more up here? >> with the goal scientifically it is to avoid the circuitry from being activated. that is the only way that is the only way to have excessive reading. there are a lot of sugars and all of the accused that fight smell location time of day

that will set off. but what is key four that brain to be activated is the fact that past experience and of the thoughts of one team, what we did with tobacco by making it viewed as a deadly addictive think that people didn't want it cools down the stimulus. what is so hard was stimulates the pathways if you have any antar dialogue -- enter dialogue that is not a good, that only increases that activation. if you look at alcohol why hasn't been so successful? i will not get into the religious aspects of it, but the fact is it has of senate rules and sometimes that sounds anti-intellectual but

rules work for a few but that huge plate of french fries in front of me if i have the first one i will eat the whole thing so it is easier for me to have a role i will not do it and it is black or white. if you know, it is impossible with no ambivalence about that your brain will not get activated. i can show you the science part of you look at smokers and say it is impossible for you to smoke for the next four hours and eight you'd do that they know it is impossible. watch a smoker. i have never seen a smoker open the emergency exit and two about. [laughter] because they know it is impossible within a period of time but watch them toward the end of the flights. that is on the brain becomes activated three of you can develop rules for yourself. that is why your planned eating or structure if you know, you'll be eating and when you will be eating and

not allow yourself to recall the time then over time all of those queues will extinguish. you will never get rid of them entirely. if he were stressed or fatigued or depressed the old circuitry will show with said but you really have to not want it but it can't be ambivalent i don't want it it has to be i really don't want that the only way is to want something more. >> tsa id general note and then a question about your time at the fda. i think i appreciate you talking about the symptoms and not just the problems but if i could make a caveat i think a lot of this is about loneliness and foreigners have come and written books about

america robert frank reference to the loneliness in america and i am wondering to throw this out as a rhetorical but no other society in human history is focusing on the individual and i think the pressure that the average american in has put on to self regulate is unheard of in human history including comparing a modern-day other society and having lived outside this country a lot over and over you hear as other societies pick up the fourth and fifth gears lifestyle the fast-food the value of the efficiency verses human relationships which is usually through brought us together but in this land efficiency is valued in other words, it is the basic primal biological thing as opposed to nurturing hearts and minds and a lot of this as pointed out the loneliness of the society

because of the individual ups all other values of the collective. i throw that out for something to think about. but you can't underestimate the indoctrinate sank going on as far as the industry they started with advertising with promoting smoking that was very calculated. buds you're 10 year adds the food and drug a demonstration, the kissing cousin to the issue of obesity, etc., etc. i am surprised you never mentioned the other profiteers in a drug pushing industry is the other drugs as much as you seafood advertise on television it is big pharma at work products for i am thinking specifically about -- which killed tens of thousands primarily women in this country, and no one went to jail but if i was the

inner-city or some person or hillbilly out there shooting thousands of people as this american home products did, and nobody was held accountable. people are still dying as a consequence of that primarily due to pulmonary hypertension drug you're at the fda at the time of this whole fallout and i would like to hear what you have to say. >> very eloquently said. a lot of different points. the first point* on the line s -- loneliness and one of the things that triggers. understand with food, food is a very powerful stimulus. it is a reward. how we use the word to take the devil but -- developmental

psychologist that defines that will change how you feel. because it is wired into their reward pathways of our brain where the motivational circuits it can change how we feel. it is very powerful and no doubt millions of plus or bass maturities use food to self medicate because when you're in this cycle what happens? the thought that this will taste good and captures your attention when that happens we don't think of all of the other foods. why do eat at the end of the day? 10:00 or 11:00 at night? you are shaking your head. to calm down. and as cents to regulate the emotional levels. when you use it like that, it

is because you are stimulating this reward pathway over and over again. the comments about 10 fen are especially important there is a chapter in the book and i put it in there phenphen we worked directly on the reward circuits. it is in a sense it is the amphetamine like compound been around 30 years. it affects serotonin levels. understand that these drugs are affecting the circuits that make us human. as we have this evidence that the overeating is the result of excessive stimulation of these circuits, a drug sadness around with those circuits will by their very nature

affect very important human circuits and will affect intelligence, and memory, cites -- psychiatric said it but we're smarter today than we were. i think it will be very hard if not impossible once you understand eating as a result the simulation commerce circuits and we need those circuits for other things that are selective ford than just food. i don't think it will work and i think the agency is becoming much smarter and much more skeptical certainly these are circuits that involved what makes us human. we need these circuits and they are being hijacked by what we're doing is decided by putting it sugar, fat, and salt on every corner to have a drug to decrease the stimulation of the circuits

and cool that down we have to find a better way. >> both sides this week on the menu labeling question made big concessions with the regulation and might actually pass. but what i hear you saying is you could have menu labeling up about was two and unless the basic food is not changed that it will not change the problem? >> i am a very big fan of menu labeling. i strongly strongly support congresswoman bill and senator tom harkin's bill. we need to get that because it will change how we respond to the stimulus but we need a range of tools for i was giving a talk at a google and i went into the cafeteria. it was striking in front divvies fruit is either a red or yellow or green assigned

and it is right in your face and it has a real effect. red means eat small amount for a taste yellow a moderate amount or green is as much as you want. i was in charge of regulating third and it had a major effect on me. we have to change how we perceive the stimulus and have to have greater disclosure. what is served in the schools, at vending machines, you try as hard as you can and kids are stimulated with sugar, fat, and salt they have to change how we regulate advertising. menu labelling is a key step in changing how we perceive the product. >> good afternoon.

despite your questions on rules we cannot just tell coke or burger king or mcdonald's to stop serving through. since you are no longer an official and you can talk about these what about general practice is the government can take to push us in the right direction short of just banning stuff? >> the freedom of being a former officials. [laughter] and their needs to be further work on the label. i think added sugar and fat needs greater disclosure and restaurants serving two chain restaurants you should not have to dumpster dive to get the permission. what subsidize with tax dollars knees to change with the school lunch programs it needs to change.

this is one of the key areas, allowing the industry to amplify the reward value to reinforce whether nicotine or sugar, fat, and salt with any motion no gloss i think we really have to rethink how we look that enhance and amplify the stimulus. there is a lot of work now that we know the brains of millions of americans are literally being hijacked. >> if you flip over the suggestion talking about sugar, fat, and salt is impossible to wire people to want protein or carbohydrate? that is where the bulk of the calories come from. i guess non sugar carbohydrate. >> it is very interesting. this is high the person know what we view