>> here we go. thanks for joining us, i'm diane rehm. arthur williams is a craftsman who learned his trade from a man nicknamed da vinci. this particular da vinci taught the age-old art of counterfeiting. under his tutelage, williams went on to become one of the most skilled counterfeiters of the last quarter century. his masterpiece a perfect replica of what was once the most secure u.s. bank note ever made, the 1996 $100 bill.

journalist jason kersten details the story of this master counterfeiter in a new book. it's titled, "the art of making money." he joins me in the studio, i hope you'll join us as well. call us on 800-433-8850, send us your e-mail to dr show at wamu.org. jason kersten, what a story you've told. >> thank you. >> i must say in reading about his childhood i find myself thinking, this has got to be the most ghastly way a kid can be brought into this world one could ever imagine. talk about him as a young boy. >> that was one of the most surprising discoveries as i researched the book and got to know him better. he started out as quite a gifted

young lad. he had skipped two grades by the time he was 11. >> very, very bright, always hit the top of his class. >> right. and one of the things that sort of developed that in him was that his family was corn instantly -- constantly moving around all the time, his father was an on and off crook himself, a paper hanger, and his mother was mentally ill. and his father also had a mistress, and he was constantly going back and forth between the two, so that was really the only stability he had as a child which was his mind and his creativity. now, when his father abandoned the family completely at the age of, when art was 12 years old, just right after that the mom was diagnosed with bipolar schizophrenia. >> she really had a total breakdown. >> oh, yeah. >> couldn't feed the kids, was sitting there just totally demoralized. >> so they wound up in the

bridgeport homes which was a housing project on the south side of chicago, and really just a couple months after they got there there was just no food in the house because his mother had an episode, wasn't taking her medication, and for two days the children were starving. >> they were crying, weeping -- >> they were hungry. >> of course. >> just an animal need. and art, being the oldest of three kids and at that time he was about 12, he goes out into the streets. he doesn't want to go to social services because he's afraid they'll take his mother away which had happened to him before. and he starts knocking on the parking meters on hall stead street, and he can hear the change in them, and he thinks, if i can just get that, i can get some food. so he builds a little key that'll unlock some of these change boxes. gets about 50 bucks and him and his little brother go to the grocery store and come back with food. of course, he saves the day. and, you know, his mother's very

proud of him for that. and that is the first crime he ever committed was out of survival. and being in those projects where there's also a gang, he quickly realizes that that's how people are making money there. >> well, and, of course, he raids many, many parking meters before the police finally catch up and realize that somebody is unlocking these meters, so they put new locks on the meters. he saves that little key that he devised. what a brilliant guy he was to begin with. >> yeah. >> i mean, his artistry. he entered an art competition came out on top. >> this was when he was in a boys' home for a period when his mother was hospitalized, and he had wound up in a boys' home, and his school -- he was still attending the same school, and they had an art contest.

one of the older boys in the boys' home helped him learn how to draw and hone his abilities as an artist. so he enters the contest, and he wins. >> he wins the contest, and we are not here to glorify a criminal, but on the other hand, this young man had so much talent. he was so gifted. had he been able to put this talent to use in some other way, he could clearly have legitimately made quite a name and quite a living for himself. >> i think so. and i think that's one of the real tragedies of this story. and one of the things i try to explore and capture was this transformation from this brilliant, glowing little boy into an arch criminal. >> we're talking about a new book, it's titled, "the art of making money; the story of a

master counterfeiter." do join us, 800-433-8850. send us your e-mail to drshow at wamu.org. we're talking about a man named arthur williams who did become a master counterfeiter. he's now serving time in prison after he was ultimately caught, and we'll, of course, throughout the hour be bringing you more of this story. we do look forward to hearing from you, 800-433-8850. he actually shared his secrets with you. >> he did. i had to keep pressing and pressing him. he was very reluctant at first. he had spent years perfecting his craft and especially with

the' 96 new note which was his masterpiece. >> why did he particularly go after that one? >> i think there were a couple reasons. i think first and foremost he wanted, he was proud of the job he did on this bill. and he wanted recognition, i think, just for his pure craftsmanship and abilities. i think woven into that motivation was also the idea that he wanted to stop. he wanted to quit. and by, you know, by confessing to a journalist his method and his secrets, in many ways he was committing criminal suicide. raising his profile that high certainly didn't do anything to keep him off the map with the secret service in the future. so those were two motivations going on there. >> tell me exactly what led to his ability to become such a master counterfeiter? >> well, picking up where we

left off before, as he goes into these projects he starts committing street crimes, and he joins a local gang. pretty much everybody in the bridgeport homes had to join that gang unless you wanted to get beat up on your way to school. and, you know, the gang members start getting him into car theft. they say, why are you knocking over parking meters when we can steal the cars right next to them? that's more money. so he gets into that, and he's quickly on his way to prison or death. and his mom's boyfriend who she meets while she's working in a diner across the street takes an interest in him and sees him going down a very dead-end, criminal road as a street criminal, and he is a master counterfeiter himself, da vinci. and one day after art gets out of juvenile hall he says, you know -- and art had just had a young -- he's a teenage dad at this point, he has a young son. >> how old is he? >> he's 16.

>> he's already got a son, and he's committed a crime. what has he been caught for? >> he's been caught for auto theft. but he's underage, so he only does a couple months. but when he comes out, da vinci is right there, and he says, you know, if you're willing, i can show you something that's a lot safer than what you've been doing, and a day later da vinci brings him into his print shop. >> and da vinci is a fellow who has been successful for a long time, counterfeiting. what kinds of bills is he counterfitting? >> da vinci's specialty, like art's, was the $100 bill. and this was the older currency, before '96. the little heads as we remember them as opposed to the big head band that we currently have. so da vinci's been doing this for many years when he decides to bring on art as his apprentice. that's how counterfeiting works with a master counterfeiter, there's always the master and

the apprentice. this is a legacy crime. it's something you don't just figure out by yourself. someone has to show you because there's advanced printing techniques, it's very difficult stuff and art was very intimidated by it at first. but after they diss their first patch -- did their first batch and he sees those bills coming off da vinci's press, he realizes he's looking at a method of survival far superior to what he's been doing. >> so what does it take for him to learn this craft? >> a lot of patience. there are many stages and processes in high quality counterfeiting, and this was in the older days when they were using a big offset press, so he has to learn about photography, how to photograph negatives to create a plate that's going to be put into the press, he has to learn about mixing inks, he has to learn about the qualities of a convincing currency paper that

can pass. many hundreds of steps to create a convincing bill, and he's overwhelmed by it at first. so it's something that you gradually learn over time. >> and he learned it so well that the fbi, the secret service, people just could not tell the difference. you've got one bill with you. >> i do. >> would you pass it to me, please? >> sure. >> how did he pass these bills? >> well, that's another interesting thing about art williams. not only was he a magnificent counterfeiter, he was an astonishingly good passer. one of the things da vinci told him was never spend your own money. but after the '96 note, he decided he wanted to take his own money out. so what he and his girlfriend would do is they would hit malls all across the united states. >> jason kersten, we're talking about his new book. it's titled, "the art of making

money." that is one handsome $100 bill. >> it is. and it's funny. you can see how if you have any doubts about it and you hold it up to the light, you see what you expect to see. the security strip and the water mark. >> and he could do all that. >> yeah. that's him. >> he could do all that. >> he made that with his own hands. >> did he give it to you? >> there's a story behind that bill. >> okay. >> it was stuffed into a journal that somebody had given me as a keepsake. >> i sent you a tweet. >> okay. you sent me a tweet. why bother -- what's your question? >> i have always wondered how much it costs to make these phony bills. >> yeah, okay. >> interesting. i don't know the exact number. >> you don't know the answer. [laughter] >> i can talk about some of the

things he did to get the materials, that's for sure. his scam for the paper is extraordinary. >> 30 cents on the dollar? >> that's what he would sell them for. >> oh, that's what he -- okay. "the art of making money" is the book we're talking about. it's the story of a master counterfeiter, a man whose name is arthur williams. he's currently serving time in prison. he'll be out when, jason kersten? >> his scheduled release date is 2015, i think january of 2015. that's full time. you have to do 85 percent in the federal system, and with good behavior he should be out mid 2013. >> where is he serving? >> he just got transferred to the federal correctional institution in big spring, texas. >> and what kind of conditions is he under? >> this, i believe, is a minimum to medium security.

>> what does that mean? >> it means that the worst of the worst are not there. it's bunk style housing. they enjoy more freedom than, you know, a medium to max. >> since it's not considered -- >> it ain't club fed. >> it's not considered violent crime. >> not at all. >> all right. we've gotten a tweet from sandra who says, why bother counterfitting the new, more secure bills when the old ones are still legal tender? >> that's true. he would occasionally do the older bills. one of the reasons he did the newer stuff was because it was so convincing when people saw the water mark and saw the security strip that things moved much faster, and he could raise the price on his bills when he retailed them to criminal organizations and drug dealers. >> how often do people look closely at $100 bills?

>> not often enough. >> yeah. >> and it's funny, looking is is sort of the established norm. really the feel of the bill is going to tell you whether or not it's genuine. >> may i take this offsome. >> yes, you can. your sprint fingerprints are now on this bill. [laughter] >> and what does that indicate? >> well, if you feel the portrait part of the bill, on genuine currency you're going to feel thousands of ridges, and that comes from the press they use to print genuine currency. it's a very expensive process, and it leaves the ink raised on the surface of a bill. you notice the feel of this bill you have in your hands is flat. that's a dead giveaway of what's probably a counterfeit bill, or it's very old, very, very old, but even very, very old bills tend to have some texture to them. >> okay. how much does it cost to make this $100 bill? >> you know, i never actually sat down with art and calculated

his expenses. and he never did either. he was very on saysed with -- obsessed with the craft and doing it well. expense wasn't something that he worried about too much because he knew that once he had it perfect he could just make more of them. but to give you an idea of the lens that he -- lengths that he would go to to make these bills, obtaining paper was one of his best scams. and the paper that he uses, it passes the pen test. so when you put that anticounterfeiting pen on that bill, it's going to mark yellow, and you're going to be completely convinced it's real. the way he found this paper, there are only certain places he could get it. >> you're not going to tell us now, is that right? >> oh, i can tell you what he did. >> okay. >> he would show up to the loading docks often posing as a schoolteacher or a sunday schoolteacher or sometimes a student himself saying he was working on a school project, and he would ask for what's called the butt roll.

and these are big printing houses where the paper comes in rolls that weigh a couple tons. the butt roll is that last little bit left on these giant owl -- rolls, can weigh a couple hundred pounds, that they throw into the recycling bins. so he would beg for the paper, and usually they'd give it to him. >> how much did these printing presses cost? >> his printing presses? >> yeah. >> his offset presses, well, the most expensive one he ever had was about $14,000, and that was -- >> i wonder if he paid for it with real cash. [laughter] >> probably -- well, i know how he got that one. that one he got for free because it was taken off the floor of mccormack place in chicago because every year there's an annual printers' convention, and he was connected to people who work there. this was a real inside job, that was a stolen press. >> a stolen press. okay.

now, tell me how he used the money. you started talking about a shopping spree. he went on with his partner. >> right. two ways he'd clean this money. the first thing he'd do is he had clients that he would print $100,000 for and sell to them for 30 cents on the dollar, and they were from the chinese mafia, russian mafia, and so you have regular clients, and then he'd also print extra for himself usually after one of these big deals would go down, and then he and his girlfriend or sometimes a croup of friends would drive around the country and go to shopping malls where if you take a counterfeit $100 bill and you buy something for 10 or $15, you're getting back $90 in real currency. in two hours they could pull $5,000 of real money out of the mall. what's interesting is, of course, they have a trunkful of stuff they've gotten from the mall, and then they quickly got

into donating that to the salvation armies or churches in the same towns because they felt like, he had grown poor, and seeing all this stuff go to waste was horrible to him. that became almost as addictive as counterfeiting itself, he told me. >> really? >> yeah. he really got off on this robin hood thing. >> so it wasn't as though he'd take this stuff and then return it for cash. he would take this stuff and donate it to worthy organizations. >> yeah. no, he's going to charity bins, basically. >> so, in other words, he was feeling guilty about his crime. >> well, it's funny. it says in the book a therapist years later asked him about that, and he said, well, you know, maybe that's a good assessment, but i'd have to feel guilty about counterfeiting in the first place for that to be throw. >> and he didn't really. >> he only felt guilty about the effects it had on his family and

friends. >> which was? >> he witnessed a criminal lifestyle take over for a lot of them. everyone around him who saw the money was spending it. all his friends, many of his family, and they sort of got sucked into the crime, too, because that money looks and feels so real that they got accustomed to this, that it was real. and in art's mind he spent so much work on that that to him it was real money. it was money that he had sweated over and slaved over, and counterfeiting is a very addictive crime. they say the recidivism rate is higher than that of heroin addicts. >> so it really gets into the mind and blood. >> almost a sexual rush, they say. >> here's an e-mail from gregory in salt lake city who says why is it so hard to make a good counterfit? it would seem that with modern technology making a convincing

copy would not be that hard. >> right. well, anyone who's ever tried it could probably tell you why it's so hard. with the modern technology, and art incorporated some of the modern technology into his bills, you know, with using computer programs like photo shop and high-end scanners, he did what's called a hybrid bill which is a combination to have offset and the modern stuff, but there are a lot of security measures built into copiers, more and more every day to prevent this. go to -- why is it so hard? go down to your kmart and you see next to every register there's a really bad counterfeit and usually it's made on poor quality paper and barely passes. it's easy to pass one or two bad bills. doing it very, very well like he did it requires tremendous work. >> and here's another e-mail from steve who says, did you have any ethical issues writing this book? >> no, i didn't. i worried maybe there was a

minute where i worried that i was glam orizing the art of counterfeiting, but once i got into his life -- and i think that's really the core of the book -- it's not art as a counterfitter, it's art's story and the story of his family, there was nothing glamorous about it. this was a hard story to write. i mean, there are parts of it that are gut wrenching, what goes on, and it was ultimately his quest to find his father again that was the driving force for me. >> it's interesting that he says and you quote, i felt a huge sense of power, more power than i had ever felt in my life. he was powerless as a child. of course this gave him a sense of power. >> yeah. that was after doing the first batch with da vinci. when he suddenly had that money in his hand and passed his very

first counterfeit note which he stole from the pile. >> oh, he stole it? >> yeah, that was one of the rules. art wanted to spend it right away. he said no, i'll pay you for this, but your mom would kill me. [laughter] but art snuck one from the pile, and he bought a pack of cigarettes with it. the moment that bill massed, that's when he talks about feeling this power because then he knows that he has a way to provide that's not just effective, but can theoretically make him rich. >> what was his girlfriend like? what was his son like? >> well, there are a couple of girlfriends i talk about. the mother of his first child, his son, she was a girl from the same block as him. and he had known her since they were kid. she was an aspiring chicago police officer, and she is a chicago police officer today.

and when they were together, she would tell me, you know, i knew he was up to something. and i was always asking him questions, but he always had an answer for her. she could never get to the bottom of what it was he was doing. >> he was providing for her very, very well. >> he was. she would ask him where the money's coming from. he told her he was working construction which is sort of the ubiquitous crime every criminal works. she'd ask for a pay slip, oh, i lost it. >> did they live well? >> yes, he was able to move out of the projects and he was also able to help his mom and sister get out of there too. he got away from the projects by doing this basically. >> a lot of our listeners want to know about the specifics of how he dealt with the challenges of the 196 $100 bill.

>> okay. now, if everybody remembers, there were a couple of things about this bill that made it so unique. one of them was we suddenly had this thing called the water mark in them. on the 100 it's benjamin franklin, and that comes during the paper making process. it's very old world technology. but it's also very difficult to copy unless you're actually making the paper. and there's that, there's also the security strip which you see that little strip running through the length, that would be on the left side of the bill? >> yes. >> okay. >> yes. >> now, that'll also glow red under ultra violate light, and it'll show up on a scan. so these things make it very hard to just photocopy a bill. >> but it's the ink itself. >> the ink is actually not that difficult to replicate because the color you can achieve by mixing various colors of ink. i don't think the ink is even

patented. but here's what he did. he did what's called a twin sheet method where he took two very, very thin sheets of this very specific paper that also passed the pen test, and it's almost like a sandwich. he had his own water mark that he would place in there with the security strip, and he would press those down with a very specific set of glues, and so that it was so thin it was exactly the same weight as a genuine bill. >> wow. >> yeah. he was exacting. the color shifting ink or omni directional ink, he got that by yiewgz automotive paint. and what's fascinating about this automotive paint is that it is patented by the same technology that pat especiallies it for the genuine currency. >> at 26 before the hour, you're listening to "the diane rehm show".

you say that there is the phone directory paper. >> right. >> that's an exact match to this. >> well, exact i'm sure that people at crane and company would say, no, no, no. >> no, no, no. >> the secret service would say no, no, no. but it's exact enough. counterfeiting is very much the art of satisfying people's expectation. when you held that bill in your hand i don't know if you snapped it or not -- >> no, i didn't snap it, but that is also part of why this one is so good. >> right. it's starch free, and that pen when you put it on the surface of, say, just a regular piece of copier paper, it's going to come back black because it's reacting, the iodine in the pen is reacting to the starch in the paper. and so it took him quite a while to find this. they were calling in paper samples from all kinds of places and finally out of frustration, you know, his girlfriend just

started marking everything in the house. she was marking a phonebook, and all of a sudden it came back yellow, and they got very, very excited. there it was right in front of them, the answer. at first they couldn't find it thin enough to do the twip sheet method, so he would get around it by using various chemicals and sprays that would give him a kind of amber markback. >> all right. we've got a lot of callers waiting. if you'll put those headphones, we'll take some calls. let's go first to brian who's in ft. lauderdale, florida. good morning, brian, you're on the air. >> hello, diane. >> hi there. >> listen, thank you so much. i've been a faithful listener for 15 years, and i'm down here in ft. lauderdale. >> i'm so glad. >> thank you. my question is how bad was this man? i mean, in modern, in many modern respects we judge people differently based on their crimes, and he, obviously, wasn't convicted of any violent

crime given where he's located now. but did he ever -- i've always gotten the impression from hollywood, i admit, that this was kind of a gritty kind of dark world, and i don't think if that's true or not. >> well, certainly when he was growing up and he was in the gang of the bridgeport homes he was tough. you didn't want to mess with art williams. he had to learn to survive on the south side of chicago. but violence was never his thing. he did other things, he sold drugs before he got into counterfeiting. >> did he use drugs? >> oh, sure. one of the reasons he didn't wind up rich from this was he had a cocaine habit, sort of one of those classic criminal stories. but in terms of him being bad, if you met him and spent some time with him, you wouldn't think of him as a bad person at all. or a mean person at all. he comes off as very humble, a

little intellectual, and he's quite charming. so and that's a difficult word, bad. what does that mean? is he a bad person? well, he's certainly done bad things, but i think his motivations are a little more complex than that. he's done bad things. i don't think he's a bad person. ..

>> secret service. >> no. no. no. no no. yeah. yeah. oh, i love these questions! from listeners. oh, yes. yes. yeah. somebody was wondering whether you were writing about frank abignale, the guy who did the same thing. >> oh, sure. i talk about that.

>> and talk about an appealing young man. i mean, at least, as portrayed in the film. >> sure. >> you probably saw that film. >> oh, yes, i saw that film. >> yeah. yeah. >> should i put these back on? now. >> in one minute. in one minute. okay. this is how we're going to get to this. >> you have something to bep p there? >> no. this is... from an individual, who received a counterfeit bill. >> was it one of ours. >> i don't know. let's see. >> they are probably not happy. >> yeah, exactly. well... and that is the first e-mail, now, headphones, please. >> stand by, please...

>> and we're back with writer jason kersten. he has written a fascinating story about a master counterfeiter, whose name is arthur williams, he is currently in prison for counterfeiting. the book is titled "the art of making money." the story of a master counterfeiter. here's an e-mail from misty, in north carolina. who says, if the counterfeit bill is so good, who is hurt by the counterfeiting crime?

>> well, banks do not accept core fit bills. >> how do they know? do they know immediately. >> most of them document it depends on the particular machines they are using to count it, it also depends on the counterfeit, but, a lot of them will use a detector that detects the magnetic ink and the content of it. >> and is that usually the first time the counterfeit is discovered? >> with art's bills, certainly. >> when it got to the bank. >> he wanted a bill that went all the way to the bank as he liked to put it and make no mistake people are hurt by this crime. the business owners who receive the money that he passed, were hurt by the crime. that didn't get reimbursed by anyone when they received -- >> how many of his bills are still out there, do we know. >> we don't know how many are still out there. i don't think he has any circulating right now, because, you know, one thing that differentiates counterfeit from real money is its lifespan and a

real $100 bill lasts ten years in circulation and i would be surprised if one of arts lasted 6 months, given all the chemicals swarming around on its surface, he'd try to target big chains, that was one of the ways he justified it, i'm hitting kmart and didn't like to go to mom and pop stores where he knew that mom and pop are going to lose 100 -- >> really, yeah. here's another e-mail from elizabeth, in portsmouth, new hampshire, do you think the government will increase security measures in the currency, in response to release of your book? >> oh, boy! no. i would really like too say the book inspired a change in our currency, that would be incredible bragging rights. but, they are actually -- there are plans to reinvent the currency every ten years. and this is in response to the rapidly growing technology. and that, we were supposed to -- there were stories, that we were going to have a new $100 bill last september with this incredible technology, in it,

called, micro lenses where you would see floating above the surface of the bill, like a hole gram, of either a denomination mark or perhaps an iconic image, and this was supposed to come out in september, according to the associated press, and, i called the boulevard row of engraving and printing -- bureau of engraving an printing a couple of weeks ago and said the new money, where is the new money we have heard about and the ap story came out and it sounded like we'd have a new $100 bill and they said, there was never a schedule for this and they seemed to kind of be going back, on what they said, and i think it has -- could very well have something to do with the economy, you dob want to change or medal with the currency, when the -- you know, the stability of the dollar is already in question. >> all right, let's take a caller, who is an engraver, with the bureau of engraving and printing, kennest from the new baltimore. >> i would like to speak to

mr. kersten if i may. >> go right go ahead arthur williams, did he ever use what we call in our profession, a hand engraving, a hint etching in creating some of his counter fits, we call it a dye but i guess you call it plates, and making reference to offset, almost everything is driven by offset, and i was wondering, i have several questions, but you my first question is, did he ever use intalio at all in making his counterfeit -- >> jason into no, he never used italio and did photo with the graphic process. >> and your second question, kenneth? >> yes, it is very easily available, this information and with regards to paper many counterfeiters take a $1 bill and bleach the note, down to -- clean off the ink so they have actual currency paper. and you go into the counterfeiting, with regards to

counterfeiting as i'm speaking now, again i'm not working for them, and speaking as an official -- not speaking as an official personal for the bureau and because of the counterfeiting, north korea is price the super note, a perfect $100 bill that is not -- is in circulation and there is another -- latter in american country that is producing a perfect $100 note. >> that is very interesting. >> i talk about the super note in the book, actually, one of art's chinese clients in chinatown, chicago, would occasionally get access to it and so, when they could get access to the super note, they wouldn't buy art's bills, because, it was the one thing -- >> super note is even better than art's -- >> oh, the super note is made with the italio process, like a $10 million process, and it takes, millions of dollars to perfect that technique and there's a whole team and they suspect -- >> how do you know that is not in circulation now. >> it is in circulation now. >> it is in circulation.

>> is a major issue we have with the north koreans and a couple of weeks ago, there was a revelation in "the washington times," that we not only know that the bill comes from north korea and that is a rare statement for us to make, because we have sort of held that over them with the 6-party talks, not acknowledging explicitly that it comes from nourz. and using that as a bargaining chip. but, "the washington times" story reported we not only know it comes from north korea, the name of the general in charge of producing it. >> all right, if i go to my bank, and cash a check for $1500, and ask for 15, $100 bills, am i at all likely to get a counterfeit. >> very unlikely. especially in the $100 bills, because, the hundreds are often used to transfer balances between banks. and, it could be coming straight from the dep, but, you know, art

told me a story once, and -- i'm not exactly totally sure how everything works with the circulating through banks and the federal reserve and all of that but art told me a star once and this is when he was doing the old money, that he was out with a friend, who had gone into a bank, and gotten some bills, and he swears to god that one of the bills was his. and this is the older money, not the new stuff. and, then, when his friend saw that, he wanted art to reimburse him right there! for the bill. and art refused 0 do it! >> did the counter have any technique for aging a bill? >> he wasn't that obsessed about aging it. i know in the the movie, was it, "to live and die in l.a." you have the great scene and they are throwing the poker chips in the dreier with all of the bills. swarming around in there. and to age it but they would -- you know, sort of crumple it up belated an rub it on their clothes a little bit.

but, they didn't want to roughly those bills too much because, remember they are two sheets, glued together and if they mess around with that, they could have real problems which also happened to him, in the south, you remember, when -- in the humid climates his bills would occasionally peel apart. >> peel apart! >> there is an e-mail from karla, in strath em, new hampshire, who says i was positive listening to the intro for the show, that the counterfeiter was going to be frank abignale. can your guest comment on the similarities between the two men, and did they ever meet? frank abignae was the subject of that really fascinating movie, what was it called. >> "catch me if you can." >> who became a master counterfeiter. >> he did checks. he counterfeited checks. >> quite right. >> he was not a currency guy. and, so that is one of this

differences between the two and one of the things they had in common is they were both young when they started doing this and they were both also, you know, great -- >> very bright, and very are taefk oriented. >> right. and scam artists, they could talk their way into anything. >> did you ever meet. >> no, they never met. frank lives i think he might be in kansas. i'm not sure exactly where he is right now. but, yeah, he is sort of a different generation than art and frank went legitimate. he made millions of dollars as a consultant, for document security companies, and i had really hoped that was the path art would take when i met him, he was free when i met him and he had expressed a desire to do this. to use his knowledge in a way that would help people. after having spent so many years scamming people and a company in up stated new york actually hired him to do a speech and he went and he gave a speech but,

before about 4 or 500 law enforcement officials. and he was nervous to death. when he did this, because he's really coming out, and, giving away some of his secrets and got a standing ovation. and, the company was going to put him on the payroll and unfortunately, he shortly thereafter failed a drug test with his probation officer, and she consequently refused to het him leave the state of illinois, which he would have to do to have the job. and he used that as sort of an excuse to start counterfeiting again. >> all right. and he began counterfeiting again. but, he also broke one of or several of his master teachers' rules. what did he do. >> well, the first rule, that he broke was, spending the money himself. rather than just selling it to other criminal groups. because, then you are taking -- putting yourself in a closer position to where the money is

appearing, and, so that was the number one -- one of the number one things he did. and nor thing he did is he got greedy. davinci always told him, you can survive and have a good life, not necessarily, will not become a multi-millionaire but you can have a good life, if you just keep it on the low. print just enough, to sell, $100,000 here and that was the most davinci would ever usually print is $100,000. and, you know, he is getting 30 cents on the dollar for that, it's not $100,000, it is $30,000, which you can live off of, quite some time. and, but art started printing more and more. and his drug habit started interfering. causing him to precipitation more. >> and he began looking for his father. >> yeah, and that is really the heart of the story for me. is this pursuit to find out what had happened with his father and why his father left the family.

and he finds his dad. and i don't want to give away too much in the book. but, finding his dad, leads directly to what gets him caught. >> jason kersten. his book is titled "the art of making money, the story of a master counterfeiter." let's go to charlotte, north carolina, joe, you're on the air. >> diane, hi. >> hi. >> i wanted to relate a quake story. i wassy a bar tend are in washington, on -- in the late '70s and through the '80s, and, mr. kersten is exactly correct, you do -- you can feel this difference in the paper. one night i was working on a busy saturday night, and received a $100 bill for a drink which at that time was $2.50. for, you know, just a mixed drink. and immediately i could tell, at that point, i had been tending bar for 7 years and worked in some of this most popular places

in washington, and so, hand handled a lot of money and it is dark in the bar, late at night, at night, and a lot of distractions. but, you feel it immediately. and i sensed it and walk over to the guy that i was working with and asked him and he couldn't tell any difference and i'm, well, i think this is funny, and so, i looked around and the guy was gone and it turned out he had gone up to another area of the bar, that i worked in and there was yet another bar and the guys at that particular bar, ended up accepting three of them from the guy. >> wow! >> caller: and each time buying one drink, and getting $97.75 and i'm sure he left a $2, $3 tip. >> sure. >> and the -- didn't occur the guy keeps buying drinks and paying with $100 bill. >> what did you end up doing, joe. >> caller: called the d.c. police, the metropolitan police department and they told me they one handle it. i said i have the guy right here

and they said, call treasury and i called the treasury department, and a couple of hours later and they -- an agent shows up and i still have the receipt from contraband that he gave me but he said, that indeed this gentleman had been in that part of 19th and m streets and had passed about 40 of these around the various bars. no wow that is a lot of change. at 6 minutes before the hour, you are listening to the diane rhames show. so, that gets us to how police, treasury, fbi, secret service, react when a bartender like this, who is pretty darned sharp, i mean, what happens, the guy is gone! >> i was -- that was surprising to me, that they told him to call treasury. or the secret service, i think. but, police usually will respond

to a call -- i suppose it depends how busy they are. and, the town they're in. bars are ideal places for counterfeiters to pass currency, because people, they are dark, they are busy, people tend not to study the currency, very well there, because, money is passing so quickly. but, you know, that certainly is surprising, that it would take hours for someone to show up. >> so jason, are you still in touch with are ther williams. >> yeah. he calls me, usually once a week. from prison. and his calls are limited to 15 minutes. and -- >> does he have a radio, do you suppose he's heard you this morning? >> it is certainly possible. i know that they have radios in a lot of the federal prisons. i hope he is. >> you hope he nice yeah, sure. >> because? >> because it is one way to reach out to him and know i'm out there, telling his story. it was very important to him that i tell this story about what happened to him as a child

as i did this -- you know, there was this -- the fascinating part, the counterfeiting part was obviously very fascinating but the human side of it, his journey as an individual was what he really wanted to get out. >> but the question becomes, once he is out, do you think he'll go straight or is this addiction still part of who he is? >> well, that is going to be the number one conflict within him. you know, i the thought he would quit this time and really hoped he would. but, when uncertainty rises up around him, this is the one certain he has always known. so, you know, i would call it a 50/50 -- >> what about his girlfriend. >> well, his wife now, but, i have heard they are getting divorced now. i'm not entirely certain about the future of that. >> do you intend to see him again soon. >> oh, sure, absolutely. i'd like to visit him in texas. >> well, texas is one of our big

listening states, so, it would not surprise me if he has access to a radio that he is listening this morning and heard you tell his story. which i must say, i was extraordinarily moved by the -- not the illegality, but the cruelty of the treatment that this young man received early on, and even, later in life, just boggles the mind. the book is titled "the art of making money: the story of a master counterfeiter." jason kersten is the author, that is spelled k, e, r, s, t, e, n. thanks for writing this. >> thank you. >> and thanks for listening, all. >> the show is produced by sandra pinkard, nancy roberts

and jonathan smith, susan neighbors and denise... >> you have to really, really take a deep breath when you read this, because some of the parts of it, i mean, just boggles -- >> it -- his dad was no good. >> oh. >> such a bad guy. >> well -- >> and his sister. >> and his sister. yeah. you know, i didn't even want to get into that the. >> she -- and some ways, she had it a bit rougher than he did, because he -- >> she had to live with -- >> talk about this, he externalized all of his anger. >> would you sign that for me. >> sure. and he invested a lot of that in his -- >> in what he did. >> in what he did and she internalized all of that. >> absolutely. absolutely. thank you so much. i hope the book does well. >> that's a story in and of itself. he got in an argument with his son and the son got him busted. >> isn't that something? isn't that something?

>> the generational -- >> [inaudible], you know, the -- you know -- >> it is very much a father and son story. in that regard. the irony that it comes back around to bite him. >> absolutely. absolutely. >> and the north korean super currency, does that pass the bank. >> i think it will, yeah. >> it will pass the bank? >> echoes all the way through and they -- >> in circulation, he said. >> you could spend it. you would be all right. >> jason kersten is the author of "journal of the dead" a story of friendship and murder in the new mexico desert. his writings have appeared in several publications including "men's journal" and rolling stone. for more information, visit jasonkersten.com. >> this summer, book tv is asking, what are you reading?

>> i just finished, recently, a pretty thick book, liberal fascism and i had to read a lot of stuff for that and stuff i will confess i have been reading most have been graphic novels, essentially comic books for grown-ups and now i'm reading a book called "rebirth of a nation", and i hope that is the title, i'll sound silly if it an and which i'll review for "national review" and it is pretty good so far and very ideologically i have problems with it, but, it is a good read about the sort of intellectual currents ta lead to progressive eras and i have been reading stuff by the social scientist, sherry burnham about social democracy which is pretty good and i picked up a copy of a book "meth land" because i think meth is kind of -- an interesting social phenomenon. and not a good recreational drug, though, and that's really about it. in terms of books i would

recommend to people, my friend vin cannato has a book, about ellis island, which has been gloriously reviewed and i'm hoping to get to. and there is one of my favorite books, is an older history book, written by an l. b. j. liberal, eric goldman and it is called "rendezvous of destiny" history of american politics and fantastic, easily accessible book and another book by arthur eckert, called "the decline and fall of american liberalism" i hope i'm getting the titles right. i smoked a lot of pot before i came on here! what else? my own book, "liberal fascism", win friends and influence people. and, the angel graphic novel series which takes place after the tv series ends, a pretty good read if you are a follower of it and i reread the watchmen, the famous graphic novel from

the 1980s, and it is a pretty interesting cultural historical document, and less -- i think is a good comic book but more interesting as how it reflects of the time. and i guess that's about it for now. oh, very much looking forward to chris caldwell's new book about europe and immigration. which people on the right in particular, fans of him have been waiting for for a very, very, long time and he's a fantastic writer, and so that should be pretty good. >> to see more summer reading lists and other program variation visit our web site at booktv.org.

>> we're at book expo, america in new york city, at the university of minnesota press booth with emily hamilton, marketing director from the university of minnesota press. and everything you know about indians is wrong, what is wrong? >> well, according to the the author of the book, he believes that there are a lot of myths about american indians in our culture and perpetuated by movies, by toys, by ideas about the way that american indians live in our culture and he has basically taken people to task, with this very dry wit to say, american indians are people that you don't expect them to be, they live in lots of different places, they live in cities, they do all kinds of different jobs, they, you know, contribute to culture in a really, really integral way, not just a nosz taggic, historical away and is trying to correct the ideas that are still so pervasive in our

culture. >> and the sign, burying don imus is coming out this fall and anatomy of a scapegoat. can you tell us about it. >> absolutely, it is about the incident around don imus's firing and his -- his, you know, the racial comments that he made on the air and how people, when it happens, there is a huge explosion of emotion, and of anger, and out pouring of outrage about racist comments, but michael awkward is saying this is bask sort of an underlying -- an underlying tension in our culture that needs to be sort of -- it a ka turkeyic ka turkey catharticic, and people say we are dealing with race relations because we have ostracized the figure but it is a scapegoat and we are not dealing with the legacy of violence in the culture, michael awkward is a professor at this university of michigan and he is, you know, a feminist, a

black scholar, a fan of don imus's show and the book takes a personal look at the incident, too, and how he personally sort of worked through how to react to that and why was it such a big deal. and, you know, how could he reconcile being a fan of a show and also, you know, with his own problems, with american culture, and, you know, why is -- how do people, when people say things like this, you know, in one context, and the not in another, why is it considered over the line? you know, why is it considered over the line for don imus and not other aspects of culture. >> you have one other titled, "never trust a thin cook and other lessons from a culinary", can you tell us us about this. >> we have published him before, he's' really fun writer, cross-cultural travel memoirs, and he recently wrote a book

about being in norway, for two years and this is about being in italy, and he and his wife lived in italy for two years, and they were in search of the best food in the world. and so they went to italy, the birthplace of balsamic vinegar and, it is basically a really, really funny misadventure, cross-cultural misadventures of living in italy, all based around food and so, the proscuitto factory and the vinegar place and going to luciano pavorati's house and just, all kinds of hill layer russ things in sue, trying to figure out how to live in an italian culture and eat the best food in the world. >> emily hamilton, university of minnesota press, thanks: