>> yes, i do. this invokes the jurisdiction of the committee on health administration because it concerns health members of congress and therefore the amendment is outside the scope of the referral of this bill and i believe it raises a germane issues. >> the gentlelady has heard her point of order. >> to speak on the point of order. >> the gentleman wishes to address the point of order. >> i think the identical language was accepted and put into the bill in the education and labor committee. it was voted on in the ways and means committee but defeated. it was accepted over as this committee does. i am somewhat puzzled that is not germane when we are the kennedy of primary jurisdiction

and obviously have jurisdiction over health care in this body so i would hope we will against the point of order. >> the cherry is ready to will the point of order. this amendment goes into the jurisdiction of the house administration committee, which has the sole jurisdiction over these matters of setting -- well, it has the primary jurisdiction of setting these issues with these issues is not relevant to other committee did not -- might have considered an amendment and non-durham an amendment might be considered if no one raises a point of order, but a point of order has been raised and the chair sustains the point of order. >> with the chair yield on that? >> yes. >> if i understand your point of order, you're saying even though this committee has jurisdiction since another committee also

does then it's not germane. why would we not be able to go -- vote since we do have jurisdiction even if it is shared jurisdiction? >> the house administration committee is not on the referral of the bill and this amendment raises matters that are the jurisdiction of the house administration committee and i am advised that would make it not germane. >> i appeal the ruling of the chair. >> we don't want to do that. we have had -- even though we are getting beat most time we have had a pretty good markup. if that's the point of order that's the point of order. >> mr. chairman, just a point of information. >> mr. stern's, state your point. >> you indicated you're making this decision because the primary jurisdiction for this committee on this question does not have referrals. is that correct? are you saying house administration doesn't have referral and that is why you're

making your decision? >> the gentleman is correct. the house administration has jurisdiction and it is on referral. >> is it possible if we voted on and then they would be a referral so that if by voting on a they would get referral -- >> the gentleman is not correct and the chair must rule under the rules as he has, and i would say parenthetically i would support this amendment if it were appropriately brought. >> mr. chairman -- >> we are going to move on now. order, please. >> i have a pending appeal of the ruling of the chair and i would like to speak to you, mr. chairman. >> i don't think that the appeal of the chair is pending -- >> i wish a motion, mr. chairman. >> table of the motion. [inaudible conversations] >> there is no motion before us.

>> i move to appeal the ruling of the chair. >> the question now comes laying on the table the appeal of the decision of the chair. all those in favor say aye back. opposed, no. the ayes have it. you want a recorded vote? i guess we will be here later than i had hoped. the clerk will call the roll. [roll call] [roll call]

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[roll call] the [roll call] [roll call] >> have all members responded to the call of the will? any member wish to change his or her vote? if not the clerk will tell the the vote and report. >> on that vote there were 36

ayes 22 noes 1 voting present. >> the notion carious. the chair recognizes himself. i moved the committee to reconsider the amendment by mr. pitts, 1001. >> point of order, mr. chairman. >> state his point of order. >> i think you have to take us through the sequence here because i can't recollect whether there will call was already over when you asked to change your vote. i would like the parliamentarian to give me the sequence when you suddenly -- because you voted one way and change the vote, but i wasn't sure whether it was -- >> i can assure the gentleman i did in a timely fashion. i wish asked if any member wished to change his or her vote that might change my vote and the clerk tallied the vote. >> alright i take your word for it. >> the vote comes on --

>> mr. chair? bayh bodwell -- >> the motion is -- the vote is on the motion to reconsider the vote on the amendment by mr. pitts. >> mr. turkoman, point of order. >> gentleman state his point of order. >> what role, house will or this committee will are you relying on to have the right to vote to move to reconsider the vote by which the vote was taken? >> a member who votes on the preus prevailing side a offer to reconsider the vote. >> what is the point it will you are relying on? >> calls three of rule 29. >> now if i can find a rule book. [laughter] [applause] >> all those in favor of the motion to reconsider will say ayes. opposed, no. the ayes have it.

>> i would ask for a roll call. this is on the vote to reconsider, this is not on the underlying substantive vote, is on the procedural vote to reconsider; is that correct? >> the gentleman is correct. [roll call] [roll call] [roll call]

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[roll call] will the clerk called the role of members who have not responded. >> mr. gordon. >> any member wish to change? >> mr. gordon votes ayes. >> any member wish to change his or her vote? mr. ross? >> mr. ross is voted as aye -- i'm sorry, no, i apologize. off no and on aye. >> the clerk will tally the votes and announce it.

>> mr. chairman on that vote the ayes were 35 and 24 noes. >> the amendment by mr. pitts, number 1-001. the amendment is before we will now proceed to a vote on the amendment. all of those in favor of the pits amendment will answer all ayes when the roll is called. we might as well go to a roll call. the clerk will call the roll. [roll call]

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[roll call] any member wish to change his or her vote? if not, the clerk will tally the votes. >> mr. durham and on that vote of their work 29ayes and 30 noes. >> 29ayes and 30 noes. who seeks recognition for amendment? mr. shadegg >> mr. chairman i have an amendment at the desk labeled burgess number 30. [inaudible conversations] >> could you tell what division that is?

the division? >> i believe it is division a. >> a? thank you. >> it is section 223. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

mr. chairman, we have the amendment. >> the clerk will report the amendment. >> amendment offered by mr. burgess of texas. >> continue reading. the clerk will read the amendment. >> storm ike section 223 and insert the following section : page 23 negotiated rates. a. in general. subject to subsection be the secretary shall negotiate payment rates for the public health insurance option -- >> i ask it to be considered as read. without objection, the amendment will be considered as read. the gentleman is recognized for five minutes.

>> dr. burgess to strike the public plan. many of us are deeply concerned about the creation of the public plan indeed many doctors across ira katz are concerned that public plan will reimburse doctors at medicare rates. many of us are aware doctors across america cannot practice at medicare rates and indeed many communities across the country it is impossible to find a doctor who will take medicare patients and doctors are more and more singing they will do that. they will no longer accept patients on medicare because they cannot accept the reimbursement. all of us as members of congress are each year by doctors who come and see us and ask for an update of their payment we struggle that issue each year. it would be inappropriate if costs were shifted on to the private plan so why amendment simply says that the secretary shall negotiate not payment rates for providers under the public insurance option with all

health care suppliers and providers and that it shall do so without any reference. the secretary shall do so without reference to the medicare rate. >> the committee is not in order. >> the gentleman will suspend. the committee please come to order. the gentleman is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. the essence of this amendment is to say their reimbursement rates under the plan need to be negotiated, the need to be negotiated independently and fairly and negotiated separately from medicare so that doctors are -- doctors and other providers are reimbursed on a fair rate secretion of the public option doesn't result in a cost shifting from the public option to the private-sector. many of the other side have said that they think that public option is likely important, but it can't be fair if it is allowed to cost shift.

that is to say that if it doesn't reimburse doctors and other providers for their services and they have to then get paid out of private carriers still on the market. this is a straightforward protecting amendment. i believe the medical association made it very clear that it fought reimbursing doctors under the new public option plan on medicare rates would not adequately compensate them and what caused doctors want to want to participate in or practice under that and with that i would be happy to yield to my colleague, dr. burgess. >> i thank the gentleman for yielding and for this amendment. you have heard me say so many times how the doctors are struggling to pay their bills recurrent medicare reimbursement rates. they are able to offset some losses treating seniors with higher rates they've negotiated with private plans but this will cease to be the case with millions being pushed into the public plan and once again, once

again we are going to have coverage without access. any public plan ought to have to negotiate its payment rate and build its own network of providers as the private system currently does in order to ensure there is a level playing field for patients and providers. i oppose the establishment of a public plan, but if congress must do so, we must make sure it will be as fair as possible to all parties involved. i have serious concerns if congress is to enact a public option it will decide to link the reimbursement rates to those established in other government-run plans, medicare and medicaid. if we force physicians to accept the medicare rate this will result in a serious lack of participating providers therefore we should be even more concerned linked to limit access for patients. ..

and there is no who consideration in this bella to fix that the very huge problem, that means you'll get a card and have no words to go to get a service can mask the time is expired. the chair recognizes himself in

opposition to the imminence. in this amendment is not the same as the provision in the senate health committee. is only in amendments by itself on the subjects appear about i think in and of itself we should not support this amendment. it might well be something that some members can support in a broader context but i will urge members to vote against it as it now stands. if. >> i just want to speak in support and i will brain as brief as you were in opposition, what this does is you can tie up raids on the public plan to medicare rates. that is the plain and simple of its and there are a lot of members on both sides of theç aisle in this committee who have said that they oppose tying the public plan rate -- rate to medicare rates and you have said that and believe it then you should vote for his amendment.

>> who seeks? i will take you can max mr. chairman, i think with the ranking member said is exactly right, there are members on both sides of the aisle who have very clearly stated their opposition to the payment of medicare rates and the public auction and have expressed their opposition to requiring providers to participate in the public auction if there are allowed to continue to participate in medicare actuarial firm inc. estimated that the cost shifting to an average family would be $1,800. there is no question that this cost will be passed on and i think it may be the single most important cause of runaway cost inflation costs of health care as of this cost shifting and i

think the gentleman from arizona is right, i wholeheartedly support the amendment. >> i'm ready to proceed to a vote but this is mr. burgesses amendment, do you want to close on a? >> i appreciate the consideration. i really would urge a vote on this, it's important and hours rate this get it done. the. >> will now proceed to a vote and the clerk will call the roll. >> [roll call] >> [roll call]

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[roll call] anybody wished to change your lotus? the clerk will report the vote. >> on that vote there were 29 aye n29 nos. >> the amendment is not agreed to. mr. matsui, you have an amendment? >> yes, i have an amendment at the desk. matsui eight -- 001. >> the clerk will report the amendment. to the amendment and the nature of substitute to h.r. 3200 offered by ms. matsui of california and mr. green of texas. >> without objection the amendment will be considered as read, the gentle lady from

california is recognized for five minutes. >> the amendment contains language that will help preserve adult day health care services. >> mr. chairman, the committee is not in order to enact committee will please come to order. >> members are entitled to be heard. >> thank you, the mansoor a green image contains language that would help preserve a dull day health care services for thousands of low-income seniors across the country. adult day health care services are community-based days have programs that provide health and preventive services to the fragile elderly. the seniors to participate in adult day health programs are less likely to go to the emergency -- >> with a gentle lady yield? we are prepared to accept a few of yield to mr. winfield to support it commensurately, i will yield.

certainly. >> does the gentle lady yield? >> yes let me deal to mr. green first. >> and i agree that i will yield back enough time, but i want to thank my colleague for her amendment. this is part of that amendment i am a co-sponsor of ms. matsui on the adult day care which is great, but this is an in block amendments including a share 1392 and wanted thing both rep to get them to feel the, sutton, ross commentary in court and for working with us on an. is a prompt a discount of seven wholesalers and contract terms, something we worked out together and with that this man suing yield to my colleagues and new york. >> certainly. >> i think the gentleman will be very brave. i just want to add my support to the adult day care eminent. i was very proud to co-sponsor this to present the adel say

health care program. in eight states including my home state of new york, a very important program from your. this has no cost and is a win for everyone and i am delighted that we are hopefully passing this now and i yield back to ms. matsui he met with that i would like to yield to mr. with field kanaka want to thank the gentle lady from california and from texas for their average on this amendment and i want to thank and the ranking member barton for accepting and simply remove the inequity in the reimbursement positions for the medicines they use in treating cancer patients. it is a serious problem and i am delighted that the members will accept this amendment. >> with that mr. chairman i believe i will yield back the balance of my time care of him and the gentle lady yelled back, are we ready for the question fykes all those in favor of the matsui amendment say i.

oppose nos. the amendment is agreed to. mr. bergman. >> allies to engage in a colloquy with it chairman kim mack it is my understanding that we are prepared to reassess subject to the call of the chair and that juror inclination to reconvene the committee and 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning, is that correct? confess correct to my gloomy due reconvene at 10:00 a.m. while the bill be open to amendment and ending points including a, b and c.? >> we will say with a and b and then after that we will open it up. >> and how long do you intend to continue the markup. it my understanding is of the house is going to finish its business in terms of recorded votes sometime between 12 and 1:00 p.m.. >> we are going to stay as long as it takes and i want members

to please arrange their schedules to recognize this is a very important matter before us. we don't just have a committee markup and then quit with the house is no longer in session. if we can move faster we'll move faster. but, however, long it takes with and to complete this legislation to make your inclination that even once the house adjourns as long as there are amendments that members wished to honor that we can be here until midnight friday night if necessary. >> i don't anticipate that, i would urge members carefully thinking about their priorities for amendments and we ought to limit the time of it may be even more than what we did today although it was helpful to have the time limits we have today but it think we ought to move his six maliciously and fairly as possible tomorrow and complete the bill. >> and to believe that the time

limitation today in 10 minutes on each side worked very well. the sponsor not his bacon them we have several members on each side get to speak. rivels to have enough debate the issues where flesh out but i don't think we turned out on any of them. and on many amendments especially those who are in agreement with removed them expeditiously so i think our process to say has worked well in the hope that we will consider that very similar to mom document i am ready to stand by unanimous consent agreement that we have a tendency so i want members to understand that we are going to end this markup and i with him to leave members without opportunity to offer amendments that we will do all we can to accommodate members but all not stay here until midnight tomorrow night.

>> the last thing out in the case to the members is that we will have a prieta meeting at 93:00 p.m. in the republican lounge and with that i yield back. >> he has improved his members to have a meeting tomorrow morning at 930. we will come back to session probably at 10 and now stand in recess. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

secretary of state clinton travels to africa, will get an update next and after that a u.s. special envoy testifies about the situation in sudan. the senate foreign relations hearing comes up in about 30 minutes on c-span2. secretary of state clinton will travel to africa and as we commission plans to visit seven nations to meet with african leaders state department officials briefed reporters on the trip of this half-hour news conference. >> bid afternoon everyone, welcome from today we have reassess and secretary of state for african affairs ambassador

johnny carson, his and his big about secretary clinton's upcoming trip to africa hill made some brief remarks and then take your questions before asking your questions if you could identify yourselves and your news organization would greatly appreciate it. ambassador carson q1 thank you very much, a pleasure to be here you with the this afternoon to time to a little bit about secretary clinton's forthcoming trip to africa secretary of say clinton will travel to kenya, south africa, angola, the democratic republic of the condo, then cheered, liberia and cape verde starting on august 4th when returning to the u.s. on august 14th. the triple started at the u.s. sub-saharan africa traded in the economic cooperation forum known mostly as a day a.g. o a formal in nairobi kenya or she will deliver a speech at the

ministerial opening ceremony of the form, on august 5th. of the secretary's trip comes just three days -- weeks after president obama successful trip to there and will highlight and underscore and the obama administration's commitment to making africa in priority in u.s. farm policy. of this is the earliest trip by the secretary of state and the president and africa of any previous administration tear down. the secretary will underlined america's commitment to par and with governments, the private sector, non-governmental organizations, and private citizens to build societies where each individual can realize their full potential. the secretary's trip follows the themes laid out by president obama during his visit

supporting strong and sustainable democratic governments, and promoting sustainable economic development, strengthening public health and education, assisting in the prevention, litigation and resolution of conflicts around africa. the u.s. wants to partner with african leaders to enhance the president's vision which is also a vision shared by many african leaders as well. secretary clinton will stress also the importance of facilitating social and economic on encouraging a new generation of young african scientists, small business leaders, entrepreneurs and civic leaders who are trying to seek real solutions to africa's challenging problems. the secretary will discuss ways to foster good regional governments partnering with

leaders to band together to prevent conflict and violence including standard base of violence when democratic erosion and chance national frets that challenge africa. secretary will also meet with president sherry for a model of what the president of somalia's transitional federal government, that a lot of courage in the road in the finance. if the vc briefly if a little bit about the seven countries and the secretaries schedule and those countries and kenya as i mentioned it will be attending flint four am speaking and to the ministerial opening ceremony. she also contends it was she is in kenya to meet with president prime minister who i love, she will encourage both of those leaders who of foreign with their efforts to rewrite the

country's constitution and to prevent the return to the kind of violence that erupted in that country in january and february of 2007 following the very difficult fun at presidential alexians there. from king and the secretary will move on to south africa offers you zero have been never to any to me the leadership of south africa's new government. if you will meet with the president and to also meet with south africa's new foreign minister of. and this will give us an opportunity to talk with south african leaders about issues such as zimbabwe and hiv/aids. the united states and south africa have much in common. the secretary will use this to strengthen an important relationship in south africa

with a country which is the engine when of the region's growth. from south africa and the secretary will move on to engeljohn. in goal is one of the largest energy producers in sub-saharan africa and is a major supplier of both petroleum in the lng to the u.s. market. the secretary who will meet with president santos and she will also renewed her acquaintance with the angolan foreign minister with whom she met here at washington approximately a month is the desire to strengthen that relationship with one of south africa's emerging countries, and country which has enormous economic potential.

from angola the secretary will move on to the democratic republic of the condo. in the condo she will have to stops. she will have to go to king josh of ferrous and then will proceed to the next day to goma in the eastern region tariff if she intends to me with sen president fidel kabila and the congolese fine minister from ledger in that stuff is the secretary one suffered to put a great deal of focus on the issue of sexual and gender based violence what is occurring in the eastern, though. if as many as another eastern congo has been torn by civil strife one a great deal of conflict since 1994, 1995, largely as a result of the movement's of a bank's and janis and there's from rwanda into the eastern congo.

the secretary is do we concerned about the gender based violence which is occurring in the eastern condo will underscore america's commitment to try to end of this agenda based violence and will meet some of the victims who have suffered from its. we will also the secretary also intends to encourage employers to the congolese government as well as mon uc, they you in peacekeeping force in their sons to take a much more aggressive stance against gender based violence. the secretary will also encourage the congolese government to continue its democratic process and will also encourages the government to take action against corruption and to improve its economic and

fiscal management said that it can -- it's country's resources can be used for development. from of the condo the secretary will fly to nigeria, nigerian probably the most important country in sub-saharan africa: one who for a million people, 75 million of whom are muslims. it is also a major source of petroleum imports for the u.s.. it provides approximately 8 percent of america's petroleum and the largest supply of our inaudible sleekness. nigeria has also been a major contributor to stability and peace heaving in west africa. the secretary will discuss with

the nigerian government a range of issues including west african security, and then need to continue to move toward in strengthening its democracy, in dealing with corruption and also promoting a strong for economic development. from nigeria the secretary will move on to liberia. it liberia is one of our historical eight most important relationships and anova. her the secretary wants to reaffirm u.s. support for president ellen johnson sirleaf, the only female african parent -- president. liberia before johnson's sirleaf became president had faced 20 years of intermittent and often very violent conflict.

the secretary wants to use this visit to show and demonstrate u.s. support for the democratic process -- progress that has occurred in liberia, support and reaffirm ha u.s. commitment to helping in and development assistance area and in securities sector reform. in the final stop on the president's trip will be in kate verdi. sorry, the secretary's trip. almost. that may have been a freudian slip. but the secretary's trip, she will ended in came 30 barry became very is an african success story. it is a country which is democratically run, well

managed, and a country which has used the economic assistance that it has received no and the united states, including a large millennium challenge account grant extraordinarily of wealth. it will reaffirm our friendship with caper a. i will stop it there, no freudian slips, and take a few questions. >> associated press. i want to ask about the meeting with the somali president in nairobi and what the administration's thinking is right now as to how to deal with this. ambassador rice was on the hill yesterday, has a very strong words for a bearish trend and is warning about the role that it's playing in somalia. i am discovering what the thinking is right now on how to deal with this.

are you considering sending more ammunition in the military supplies and providing more training to the somalis? >> of the united states shall is a person into bidding process, the transitional federal government, and the government of a shake nawaz sharif. we think that this government which has the support of i.t. 80 which is of the regional organization as well as the a new offer is of the best possible chance for restoring stability to southern somalia which has been troubled over the last 20 years by enormous violence and civil conflict. do we think then the problems in southern somalia have started to bleed regionally and internationally. we see in neighboring kenya to the south some 270,000 refugees

in the refugee camp, five to 6,000 somali refugees flowing across the border each month into kenya, putting the country's stress on the infrastructure and also a burden for the un. largely in the international every that we have seen the emergence of piracy is a major issue in large measure because of the continuing instability in somalia. we think that the support for shake nawaz sharif and his government offers an opportunity to be able to restore some stability, fight against the somali islamic extremists, the two groups that are working and against them. yes we are prepared to provide additional assistance to them it

tfg government. yes, we are preparing to continue to support ugandan and burundian troops on the ground and, yes, we are prepared to work with us states and they a you in finding solutions to the problems of somalia and, yes, we believe that the eritrean government has not played a positive role in helping to resolve the problem. somalia is a place where they have been spoilers. we would hope that they would cease and desist their support, they would not allow the country to be used as a safe haven for a conduit for a vehicle for moving people, remissions our money into the hands of extremists in somalia.

if they have an opportunity to play a positive role in the region. lewis told them they would do so. i think ambassador rice made our position quite clear. time is running out on the eritrea. this is not just the opinion of the u.s., this is an opinion of the african union tariffs five mack in terms of specifics and a do you expect anything new to announce? >> and of nothing so, this meeting between the secretary and the shape will and give the secretary her first opportunity to meet a whiff for residential a family will hopefully it is get an opportunity to hear from him how he sees the situation on the ground here if. >> for readers. you said that part of their reasoning, behind the secretary and the president going so soon to africa was a show africa as the key foreign-policy priority.

how are you going to be able to do that when the obama administration has come and other foreign policy priorities for example dealing with the rat, afghanistan, middle east, iran and north korea? what do you plan to do to make it a farm policy, look more to foreign investment, the african continent cynical in many ways about in the u.s. making promises and not coming through with them. >> in the administration is committed to africa. the administration is capable of handling multiple foreign-policy issues at one time hath. i think that you will see it demonstrated not only in the presence of senior u.s. officials to visit the continent, i thank you will see it unfold in terms of support for old initiatives there remain valid but also new initiatives that the administration is

committed to pushing for an. one of these initiatives which is starting to take place is in the area of food security. no faith administration has made that a high priority. the secretary has made in a high priority. she will talk about a great deal in africa, in kenya, and a member of the other stops. the president has spoken about the need to help africa deal with as agricultural prices and concerns. it was a focus of the president's main initiative and the g20 meeting approximately three weeks ago. and we all know that agriculture remains a centerpiece in

africa's economic fabric. some 70% of all african households to attend either primarily riss secondarily on agriculture as a source of their livelihood. it is an issue that deserves attention especially in light of the fact that the green revolution which has helped to transform much of asia and latin america over the last 20 to their years has not yet reached africa. this initiative is aimed at helping africa meet its food prices and challenges as well as helping to stimulate greater agriculture productivity and agribusiness. the administration -- in the administration can handle multiple foreign-policy issues and is determined to do so.

of six months into the new administration intends got off to a rest of start than any previous administration with respect to its focus and interest on africa of commons dealing with the challenges, and hoping to work with african states to open up the opportunities for greater economic progress and development. >> have time for one more question, we have to get assistance secretary clinton to another meeting. >> for some of the countries, it's a 11 day trip country and i don't think we can -- >> we will have plenty of time to talk about that tonight i hope many will be joining the secretary on her trip. [laughter] to make this perfectly all, right, i have nothing against

the press. just like to be quoted by it. in [laughter] >> i will keep her brief. i was wondering if on zimbabwe how much a battle cry into the ship, the talks with the south africans and with other nations. could the trip be a moment to add to have any sort of initiative on zimbabwe either the obama administration has reached out in many parts of the world, could this be a time to reach into something new or continuation of policy is two further isolate the government? >> the certainly test the secretary intends to talk about zimbabwe with the leadership in south africa. we will seek their views on how they see the situation evolving, encourage the south africa as a primary later to continue to press the detriment to fully

implement of the global political agreement that teeeight signed with the prime minister some dari. and we will also work to work with south africa and the regional states to ensure that the gpa is fully implemented and that that country is able to return to democratic rule and its people allowed to have some opportunity for economic progress. we have tried to reach had to the zimbabwean government in the past three weeks, i myself have met with the vice president of zimbabwe. i also met with president mugabe -- i think the first time that a senior years ago -- senior u.s. official has done so in many

years with -- again trying to encourage reform tinted gpa, improved human rights and we will continue to do so. when my meeting was a little bit of golf but we continue to try to make progress. just real quickly on the oil countries that you're going to can you be little more specific about what two will be looking for in nigeria and angola besides reforms? obviously nigeria's election was a disaster. what specifically does she one of those finish a producing countries and if you fitted dress that china potential rival in the countries as well if that's bring her to go there? >> no, the secretary is going there because we have serious political, economic and

hydrocarbon interest in those countries pyridines in nigeria u.s. oil companies play a significant role both in investment and production. u.s. investments in nigeria in the oil production and service industry is well in excess of $50 billion. we are one of the leading purchasers of south african -- nigerian oil. and we think that is important to discuss with nigeria a range of issues. we are concerned about having a good energy relationship with them. we're interested in seeing them continue to play a positive regional role, including providing peace peter -- peacekeepers to keep conflict

areas appear in who we are also believing it is important for them to deal with some of their domestic issues. we like to see greater improvement in their electoral performance and strength and which will help to strengthen their democracy. we would also like them to address issues of corruption and transparency. when there is an absence of transparency and when there is a great deal of corruption it makes the business government extremely difficult. i think it was a point that the president made in his speech to the prominent, if, in fact, to have democratic governments, respect will of law, it is easier to draw an investment and business opportunities because people are certain and assured that they will be treated fairly. no these are all issues -- the range of issues were there.

the secretary is going because we have interests in working with ankle and nigeria in strengthening our relationship with two major countries, oil producing countries on the continent fellow working with them on issues in the global environment and the community that are important to them as well as us. our presence there has nothing to do with anyone else's operations on the continent's. the mention of our colleagues from asia is a cold war paradigm, not a reflection of where we are today. >> the chinese are not putting as much pressure on those countries in terms of governance. there are not being, not like trained africans as much as or

that's the view of some people as the u.s.'s. >> i hope the united states is not lecturing anyone but, in fact, in effect having diplomatic discussions and dialogue respectful and those that are mutually beneficial and important for the u.s. states and the countries that we deal with. i think it's important to respect african governments and leaders to work with them to resolve problems and challenges that they have and to engage and be able to engage on these issues. we have and should encourage countries wherever they are to do the same thing. if countries are not paying attention to human rights issues of child soldiers, bad governance, mismanagement, we need to talk to those governments about encouraging them to do the right thing which is not only write to them but

also the country is that they deal with. >> thank you all very much. [inaudible conversations] >> is there any sudanic related that that is fine two have been on this trip? >> we will get back to you. [inaudible conversations] the u.s. special envoy to sedans and sanctions may have to be removed in order to provide humanitarian assistance. retired air force general scott grayson and others appear before the senate foreign relations committee to testify and the situation in sudan. this is about two hours in 20

minutes. >> the hearing will come to order, the morning to all, i appreciate her to panelist today, we have a lot of this since to try to cover and so we are going to see if we can move relatively rapidly. as everybody knows, today's hearing explores america's need to craft a comprehensive strategy for saddam. for years the urgency of either the situation in darfur, the long war between the north and south and drove u.s. policy in one direction or another. many people are not aware because when i hear the word

sudan that automatically think darfur and their obvious and justifiable reasons for that but many people are not aware that the longest work and history of africa and one which took the lives of over 2 million people occurred between north and the south and saving. over time the fact that either darfur or the long war between the north and the south has shared our policy is resulting in a bifurcated policy in today and think most people understand that we cannot and should not pursue either of these challenges in north or south as a live they exist in a vacuum. and as the coalition of firmed in a statement for the record policy-makers have too often focused on the south to the detriment of darfur or darfur to the detriment of the south.

at the same time many discussions of u.s. sudan policy continue to center on the question of whether we should use caris vs six. and rewards or punishments. to influence sudan leaders and when i visited sudan in april of this year i came away concessions that we need to build a a broader strategic framework that moves beyond simple compositions like carrots vs six or south vs. north darfur and said we need to that dreaded word nuanced comprehensive strategy for sudan as a whole. we should begin by identifying our objectives. our primary goals are helping to achieve it peace and security and the surrounding region and maintaining and strengthening peace between north and south sudan and expanding cooperation

on counter-terrorism and promoting democracy in conflict prevention and author of the country. these are our objectives, our principal objective. and the question is how best to to them. in and i believe that the ongoing consequences of that genocide in darfur and i call it such a way back in 2004 as candidate for president, and the onrushing potential tragedy of renewed north-south were together. creed the dynamic that demands high level of sustained engagement. as a president special online scott gratian has a child there multiple times and he comes to this task with a long understanding of the region and a passion for the region i might add. and last week scott gratian the was at the center of north-south tensions and his presence on the ground when the court of arbitration announced the

decision the borders symbolize america's recommitment to the peace process. we need to make the same commitment to finding peace in darfur. almost five years ago then secretary of state: politesse of five before this committee that the united states had found a consistent and widespread pattern of atrocities that constituted genocide. he recommended that america increased the number of african union monitors and today the african union monitoring mission has been merged into the united nations peacekeeping mission. i can tell you from personal visit to the data that began to it is making a difference but it has not to be fully deployed or require full tentacle liability. the millions of people remain in camps. under conditions made even worse with the khartoum expo 13 humanitarian organizations

placing over a million people with potential japanese. gen. gratian was right to make his first priority a special envoy to the restoration of lifesaving assistance. but we need to go further, when i was in the khartoum i emphasize to the sudanese that restoring lost aid was imperative but also insufficient. our goals and should not be to recreate the conditions that existed before the ngo expulsion, is to be to move beyond those conditions. maintenance of a miserable status quo is not a solution. i strongly support the efforts of the african union, the foundation and others to bring the voices of civil society into the discussion and particularly to ensure that women are heard. at the same time we need to recognize that even as we work toward peace the clock is relentlessly taking down the hours between now and 2011.

in 2011 as critical date, that is on the comprehensive peace agreement allows southern sudanese to vote on the question of separation from the north. if the people of sudan i should transform a ceasefire and an uneasy power-sharing agreement into lasting peace we need to think of the cpa as the ongoing process stretching into the future, and not as an event in the past. today crucial elements remain unresolved include importers, citizenship, revenue sharing. a central focus was two convince both sides to embark on a series of a tripartite discussions with u.s. to tackle these demanding challenges. rising violence is also a matter of growing concern. and underscores the need for intangible peace dividend. but even as we move toward one

must not fixer is, we also need to consider what sudan could look like 2012 and 2015 and beyond for all of these issues and marra including complex regional forces need to be balanced within a comprehensive strategy for sudan. today we have an impressive array of witnesses to help us explore these issues ended gen. gratian serves as special envoy to sudan and before that served as major general in the u.s. air force and we're eager to hear his insights on the situation in sudan and the direction of policy will take earl gast is the and the minister of africa, international development, and he too has child to sudan to finance humanitarian access. our second panel former ambassador david chan is really

teaching at the eliot school of international affairs at george washington university, served in u.s. forest service for 37 years including three in sudan and also director of east african and horn of african affairs in this dr. eisa is a physician with the suzanna organization for ricin peace building and in 2007 use them at the robert f. kennedy human rights award laureate end in addition to his work as position is a respected community leader, peace negotiator and human rights advocate. finally susan page is the regional director for southern andes africa for national democratic institute. from 2005 to 2007 to direct to the rule of law a program for the united nations in sudan and she has a much as those involved in both the cpa and at the door for peace process. senator lugar. >> i think to mr. chairman for calling this hearing and for

your very thoughtful opening statement which is a comprehensive way that says for many of the problems. i enjoy also and will moving our distinguished witnesses. i appreciate that gen. gratian has taken time to join us today. another anti understands congress the benches in this issue and not upon the appointment of a special envoy underscore the presence intention to provide international leadership on the darfur crisis but time is perhaps not on our side. darfur prices now in its sixth year prospects for peace in the region. to be little better than they were when the international committee first responded with massive humanitarian convention. in the face of direct instruction and willful delays by khartoum, humanitarian endeavors probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives. but millions of refugees

continue to be at risk of violence, malnutrition and disease. in khartoum garments expulsion of 13 humanitarian organizations that are providing for roughly a million people. as exacerbated conditions for this the place. the safety net of organizations now operating in darfur is doing its best to show it more responsibility. but the sheer number of displaced and the difficulties presented by the rainy season are straining capacity. in july 2007 hopes for security or raised by a night in nations security council approval of an enlargement of peacekeeping force in darfur 226,000 troops unfortunately two years later the peacekeeping force still lacks elements needed with success. the course is not have helicopters, other types of equipment that are essential to achieve mobility and deliver

humanitarian supplies. moreover the overall stability of the region depends on full and implementation of a comprehensive peace agreement between north and south sudan. with a referendum on independence of the south 2011, most indicators are the voters will choose to separate unless some formula for stability can be constructive and the tensions between north and south will be highly volatile. the imprint of flame and the entire region. gen. gratian is charged with one of the most difficult diplomatic assignments in our government. given that the president has been that involve four or crimes and his government them as religious and is all in the political situation the problem does not lend itself to shave for a diplomatic negotiation. any successful strategy is likely to involve building a broad international support for measures the pressure of the khartoum geren to accept the

settlement so of the crisis and such a settlement to allow refugees to return to their homes, and establish procedures to guarantee their security and extend some level of autonomy through darfur. the u.s. must lead in finding ways to address these political and logistical shortcomings. the obama administration is conducting an ongoing review of sudan policy. and i'm hopeful this review will soon yield a plan that is clarifying and galvanizing the u.s. policy. and encourages far greater multilateral support for a resolution of a crisis that has produced a man suffering. i look for to hearing from our witnesses about how u.s. plans and efforts of progressing and what more we can do. i thank you again mr. chairman. ..

german other ferguson committee and senator isakson, the ranking member of the committee. i just returned as you noted from zidane last week and as a visited darfur in the self i was reminded again of the great

humanitarian tragedies that have occurred in that country. many people in sudan have suffered terribly from the pain and loss that conflict brings. it is for these people, for future generations of sydney's that we are striving to make a difference. let me tell you what we want to achieve. we want the country that is governed responsively, just the democratic. a country that is at peace with itself and its neighbors that is economically viable and works together with the united states in the common interest. we want an inclusive, and durable peace in darfur. we want full implementation of a comprehensive peace agreement. we want a peaceful post referendum period, and united sudan or a sudan that divides peace and order into 210 separate states for do we won only what is best for the sudanese people. that is our vision and to make it a reality we are using all elements of national power, diplomacy, the fence and

development. we are currently engaging with all relevant parties inside sudan to bring peace and stability to the country. we have weekly discussions with leaders from the two parties of the government of national unity, the national congress party in the sudan people's liberation movement as well as regular talks from representatives from critical parties, the other parties and movements and civil society. to accomplish our goals we are engaging with gideons neighbors and international communities and that is why i have traveled to chad, china, egypt, norway, cairo in the united kingdom to meet with leaders to share our common concern. we want to work together on shared searches. we are dedicated to carrying out their vision of success. i report regularly to the president and secretary clinton about the progress we have made and i visited congress to exchange views with you and members and a number of your colleagues. i look forward to speaking with you many more times in the weeks

ahead. let me detail some of the specific aspects of our strategic approach. mustard julie we seek a definitive end to the conflict in the gross human rights abuses in darfur and the and justice for its many victims. we can never forget the lives lost over the last five years, the million to continue to be displaced, the family still crowded to makeshift housing in i b t hands, women who gather firewood in fear, children growing up without a hope for a better tomorrow. that must then. to resolve the humanitarian tragedy we are striving to facilitate a negotiated political settlement between the government of sudan and all parties to the conflict. our goal is to conclude an agreement that will bring us sustainable peace in darfur that will allow people back to their home villages or places that they desire to move to to resume their lives and safety and stability and security. the second aspect of our

strategy focuses on sustaining that fragile peace between the north and south. sudan as he said will hold elections in eight months and the referendum of in january 2011. our timeline is so very tight, our task is very great but we have no option but success. the third aspect is to prepare the government of sudan and the government of southern sudan for the post referenda period. infinity or in peaceful coexistence our strategy seeks to find a delicate balance between improving security forces in developing the social governance and economic infrastructure required for growth. the last aspect of our strategy seeks to increase and enhance cooperation with the sudanese government to counterterrorism, to promote regional security. i believe we have a golden opportunity now to make a big difference in sudan. as he can see we are aiming high, we are thinking big and we are expecting much. dalia cannot be an option.

we must proceed with boldness, with hard work, to make this proactive in preventative approach work right now. mr. chairman and members of this committee, thank you for your leadership, for your support to end the suffering in sudan and thank you again for allowing me to be here today to discuss these issues. concerns that need our urgent attention, critical of the problems that must be resolved for all the people of sudan. thank you very much. >> thank you general. mr. administrator. >> kit morning members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to update you on our support for comprehensive peace and stability in sudan hand on humanitarian issues. the united states government has provided more than $6 billion in the systems to the people of sudan since the signing of the conference the peace agreement in 2005. our overarching goal into the and his voice and to help those affected by conflict and to establish a lasting peace.

we have saved lives and we have improved conditions for millions of sudanese but with less than 24 months left in the cpa's rhode for consolidating peace and with the continuing challenges of darfur our most critical tasks lie ahead. usaids during redican deliver basic services whether to the people of southern sudan choose unity with the north or independence in 2011 referendum. however the time for achieving such substantive improvements and governance is running out and the critical window during which we can contribute to a genuine transformation the of the cpa roadmap will soon close. in southern sudan gains have been slow and a recent fiscal crisis has highlighted that many fundamentals of good governance still need to be established.

infrastructure remains extremely underdeveloped and the burden is on international donors to foot the bill. four years after the cpa's signing are collected contributions are a drop in the bucket of what is needed but considering the state of development in the south and the three areas when the war finally ended our work has just begun and it will take decades to cement our progress. meanwhile, the situation for the 4.7 million persons affected by the conflict in darfur remains intolerable. although we have managed to fill many of the gaps left by the expulsion of 13 international ngo's in march and deferred in even greater humanitarian crisis, these measures are temporary. they rely on temporary staffing and strained limited resources. they are not sustainable. compound the situation, carjackings, staff objections and assaults, break-ins targeting ngo facilities and ongoing military campaigns still

impede the delivery of humanitarian assistance to darfur. constant security in violence continue to be the primary factors limiting the effect-- effective delivery. we must institute a sustainable long-term strategy for darfur that is accompanied by sustainable long term peace. we look forward to the day when the 2.7 million persons who were driven from their homes by this conflict can voluntarily returned safely to their villages. usaid will not deviate from its responsibility to safeguard the rights and protection of displaced persons and we helped to support their operations of the high commissioner for refugees in the international organization for migration so that they can undertake the vital task of certifying returns as a appropriate and voluntary. the violence we have seen recently in darfur and more recently in pockets of the south

are a jarring symbol of the legacy of negative france that developed during sedans conflicts and persist to this day. the absence of the rule of law, a dearth of good governance and an abundance of weapons and unresolved grievances. we must strengthen governance and communities ability to deal with tension, constructively and non-violently. the alternative is a failed state where chaos will reign. before concluding on behalf of usaids want to express our appreciation to senator kaufman, a member of this committee, who recently in a statement on the senate floor pay tribute to john grantville, one of 91 agency employees who have lost their lives in the performance of their duties overseas. in honor of john grantville and abbas mohammed you say disestablishing the staff care ward, which will recognize usaid employees who made significant

contributions to the agency's staff. in addition, the john grantville secondary school is due to open this fall in sudan's blue nyles the. john had a special attachment to the blue nile state in the fact the school was being built in his name with the support and cooperation of u.s. government, the sudanese government in this government of southern sudan is a fitting memorial to a man who dedicated his life to helping sudan's people. thank you mr. chairman, ranking member lugar for giving me the opportunity to speak on behalf of usaid. we appreciate your continued dedication to the sudanese people in your commitment is peace and stability. >> thank you very much administrator gast. general, share with us if you will your perception of the situation on the ground, the dynamics on the ground in darfur now, and particularly the current status of activities of the principal rebel groups.

>> sir, what we are doing right now is trying to cope with the situation that is very dire and very severe. obviously the hands continued to have great problems and we are trying to ensure that they have the basic necessities to ensure the essentials of life. on the ground we still see instability and insecurity and what we are trying to do right now is the chief a lasting and durable peace. to do that we have got an agreement from the government of sudan to put a unilateral cease-fire in. were trying to reduce the tensions between chad and sudan and reduce a cross-border rubble activities that have continued to stir instability and we are working with the government of sudan to come up with a plan to disarm militias that have been

put along the border by the government of sudan and we are working with yen amid and coming up with a plan, a law enforcement type of plan, to ensure that warlords, janjaweed, a thomas janjaweed and other people that continue to terrorize populations are dealt with. this is a tough problem that needs to be done comprehensively and that is why yen amid is very important. >> jim, i take it is still receiving support from chad and still across the border and operating in a cross-border fashion. >> there currently operating out of sudan but it is true that they get medical support and other support still from within sudan. i mean chad. we are working with the government of chad to reduce support and even quieter support in terms of logistics to this movement.

>> the government of chad would argue that part of their support stems from the fact that the government of sudan has been supporting efforts against them. can you comment on that? >> yes, it is very true that jim has-- threatening the khartoum and it is also true that sidney is backed chadian forces have been close to gemina. what we are trying to do in working with living said leaders around the region is to reduce the support, to stop that proxy war, to get rid of the surry gets better destabilizing. we are also working to come up with a monitoring agreement so that the cross-border areas are monitored so that the forces can go back and create the image. >> and what conclusions have you been able to draw with the current relationship and support structure between the government in khartoum and the janjaweed? >> it is very clear that in the

beginning the government of khartoum used the janjaweed to destabilize the population, to read cavett. it is now my view that some of these groups have gone autonomous. summer not to the controlled by the government although i believe there are still linkages that we have to pursue. we are taking a look at this problem in a conference of way, to take a look at what motivates them and how can we stop them both from government support and also local law enforcement. >> what happens is you raise that issue with khartoum officials? >> initially there was a denial that they had anything to do with them. now we are getting more acceptance that they have a role in fixing this problem and we are making progress on working together with the government of khartoum to stop their support. >> what would you say to the committee is the level of violence in darfur today? how would you describe the on

the ground situation with respect to killing and raids and so forth? >> it is getting significantly better but that doesn't mean we have to stop our efforts. it appears last month that there were 16 people that died a violent death and 12 of them were from criminal kinds of things, so we need to keep working. one death is too many from violence and we will continue to work with law enforcement agencies but we have been able to reduce the violence because we have been able to turn off to a large degree the proxy war and some of that happened when the government of sudan bloodied the nose of jim ed-- so that resulted in decreased activity. >> it was my perception as they met with and listen to manoli and i talked to the various representatives of factions over time and just look at the situation on the ground, that

some of the rubble groups have withdrawn from a major kind of activity, that there is, that over the last year or more, there has been a significant reduction. i think the leaders that i met with worst thing to me that there were maybe a total of some 500 folks over the course of an entire year that had lost their lives than many were in criminal activities, as you have described. so, where does that put us in the context of a debate that people have about the events of 2004, 2005 and the genocide that's colin powell and myself and others have referred to, the atrocities that took place and the sort of status that we find today? is there a distinction?

is there a distinction without a difference or does it matter to how we affect our policy in your judgment? these sir, i believe looking at the fact there's a significant difference between what happened in 2004 and 2003 which we characterize it as genocide and what is happening today. we are working very hard to make sure that we can close the gap in and that violence. wide now curley as we speak were working to unify rebel groups. we are bringing in other people to come together and work for a comprehensive peace and to be part of the solution. there is more that can be done but you are exactly correct. the level of violence we are seeing right now is a nut-- is not a coordinated violence but they violence we must end and in fact there other areas of sudan where they violence is considerably greater. >> which raises obviously are deeper concerns about the north-south and the pca.

the last question quickly. my time is up. well, i would ask it. we have a lot of senators here and we need to get through so senator lugar. >> jamal gration the sudan program group was created in the state department and deals specifically with the complex issues associated with sudan and was focused on the 30 year north-south conflict. it appears to be focused on the whole of sudan. i have three or four questions which i will ask and ask you to bring us up-to-date. first of all, is the sudan program group still independent of the african hero at the state department and if so what rationale is there for the continued independence? secondly, what role has years that played in the sudan program group? there, what bureau and office handles the day-to-day

diplomatic affairs for the united states with regard to saddam? >> sir, we are now separate from afi although we are very close friends. seacord nato the time and we make sure, because we but-- bomb up agents jed, we have to be in very close coordination and we are but we are the sudan desk. were taken over the administrative in response abilities and taken over all of those kinds of things or we support the state department, so yes we are independent and i think right now until we get the situation stabilized i believe that will probably be in to 2011, i believe we should remain as the sudan desk in the state department, focusing on a comprehensive approach but integrated with them in a way that makes sense. we are working to get more

staff. right now i believe that we need to have more prisons on the ground in sudan. our activities in darfur r four prong of with the rebel unification, the political process and pulling together civil society, with working with unamid. in the south you probably know we have been working on 12 areas and we reached an agreement on things like water demarcation and abyei and wells sharing. we need someone on the ground to make sure those don't fall apart and we meet the deadlines. we also need somebody to help us out and then if we go to doha we will need a presence at doha to make sure that stays on track. we need more people and we are asking the state department to help us get more people. >> so, you have made that request within the department and have you outlined how many persons or a battle plan for what is required? >> yes sir.

we have gotten to detailees, i think we have filled up our personal staff and their office staff okay. we have made a request for three more full-time employment and we also made their requested we could not get that to use contractors. both of those were turned down but we are in the process of raising it to the next level. >> i appreciate that and that is one value of the hearings, is to raise the next level and consideration generally because will describe the comprehensive dilemma's but you have to get into the nitty gritty of who does the job, who physically is there and how many persons in a vast area quite apart from the variety of topics, so we would like to be supportive and i raised the question to make certain we all understand the quiet-- request to have made and the importance of that. secondly, getting outside the

united states for the last few years we have had close coordination with great britain and france on sudan issues but much poor coordination with china, russia, the arab league, and the african union. these latter ackers in the drama have considerable opportunity obviously for influence with the sudan government. what additional policy tools are available to us in diplomacy? that is, working with these actors who may have disparate views with regard to sudan, us or their role in all of this but described the international situation and it's promise or difficulties. >> you are exactly correct. we have the unity there and that is what we have tried to do. before i go into the specific ones, we have reactivated detroit and i was just an oslo two weeks ago to meet with the

u.k. and with the north regions. that was a very important process in bringing about this epa. we are the contact group in europe that we have elevated up to give us input and help us work issues of more specifically i was in beijing and month and a half ago and investor who is a good friend. we served in africa together in the early '80s and now the chinese are working with us so we are not building roads and parallel but what putting one in front of the other. we are corp. deeding our humanitarian assistance. we are working on a conference possibly in the first part of october, where we will get together in moscow but there is an effort to bring these players in. we now have what we call the envoy 64 countries that have permanent on voice get together on a routine basis. we actually have a bigger group for countries that have representatives in addition, so we have 15 people that get

together rackley. we have shown support to the doha process. all of the on voice came here to washington where we had our forum so we continue to build that team in the international community but you are exactly correct, it is so important that we do that together. >> what is the situation at this point of oil deliveries to china? in the past, allegations have been made that the chinese were less interested in cooperation because of the unusual ties they head for energy needs in china. presumably those needs continue and perhaps the flow of oil. can you describe what the situation is on that front? >> they only get about 6% of their oil from saddam but it is significant. the south gets all of their income from oil proceeds so oe illicit navigably important to the south and even to the north, and so china and the united

states and other members of the international community to have investments orth responsibilities in sudan had exactly the same agenda. we want security, we want stability. they want to protect their investment. we won it because of the people in the future of that region and the security and prosperity of their region. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much senator lugar. senator feinberg. >> thank you for calling this hearing today. senators corker and isakson have recently taken to the region. has been very helpful at the overall effort in keeping this critical country on the agenda. i have felt for a long time and have been saying for a long time we need a coordinated approach with all of sudan in shoring up the cpa must be a central component of our policy and very pleased the administration has made this a priority. at the same special envoy gration as you know from our

meeting in my letter i do have concerns and questions about the administrations strategy. any public statements you pushed a relatively new approach toward the government of sudan emphasizing engagement and incentives. i would like to know if this approach is linked to a more detailed strategy that is cool been agreed to by the interagency and has this approach been selected because khartoum has demonstrated actual willingness to cooperate in live up to its commitments or is it more because there just aren't alternative options? >> we have been in a process to come up with a comprehensive and integrated strategy. the national security council is leading that process and of course we have had input as have other agencies in the bartman. we anticipate within the next few weeks that we will be able to have a rollout of this strategy and i think you will see from the strategy that it is very comprehensive and it is based on what we are trying to

achieve which is a better life for the people there. we are trying to achieve the peace and a security and stability and economic viability in the things he talked about, the cpa, peace and darfur in making sure that the whole region is, and that's the strategy includes both incentives and pressures and it includes ways to judge if we are making the progress that we all want to make. this is in about just my judgment. this is about coming together and making sure that the united states's objectives are being met and we are doing it in a way that makes sense for our country and we will continue to coordinate with the command process, the interagency process to make sure that we stay on track and we will certainly consult with congress to ensure that your views and templates are incorporated. >> i am pleased that an attempt is made to create an interagency

strategy but it does appear to be that the engagement approach was engaged in prior to this process being open for being done and ready to go, so i have some concerns about leaving before the interagency process is complete. i would like to know specifically what tangible evidence have you seen that khartoum is actually acting in good faith? >> let me just step back and explain what happened and why we started this process. when i became the special envoy the ngo's had just been kicked out. my mandate was to get those ngo's back in. was clear that we weren't going to be able to do that but a president gave me a mandate to save lives in an effort to save lives we work to get new ngo's in to restore the capability but not only restored by environment devlin's klibi significantly better than it was on the fourth of march. but this meant two things. if we were going to get this, we needed to have a relationship so

we could discuss with khartoum. also as they went to do but i realized if we would solve the issues we had to have a relationship with jubah which we had in khartoum. we are devitt foyt and both hands. we were going to solve the problems along the border with chad we had to have a foot in khartoum and a foot in el geneina. it became clear at some point we had to have a relationship so we could discuss options. but that does not preclude or negate any thing that the strategy is trying to do. the fact is the gives a foundation for the strategy and its strategy builds on having relationships not only within sudan but with its neighbors in the international community. >> i understand that but of course the concern is the message is possibly given to khartoum that they don't have to do much at all in order to have the constructed a engagement so you have alluded to this about

this thick side of this, not just the carrot side. i realize he may not be about to go into specifics but can you insure this committee that the administration is actively assessing the viability of meaningful punitive actions in the event the government of sudan continues to resort to foot dragging it, and of course that is the hallmark of their record. >> there is no question and i would be happy to come up in brief you and the more secure environment and what those are but i believe we have a very balanced approach that includes both incentives and includes pressures, and in many ways the lack of incentives is turning out to be also a pressure. we will continue to use all methods, all incentives and pressures in a balanced way but one thing i would like to say as a caveat to this is what we are finding out is, as your dino, this is a complex issue and there is a lot of multiple things happening at the same

time. .. i think it's very important one, we are on a tight times with seven sudan schedule votes succession 18 months away and

have to make sure that those mechanisms are as much or more in places they and the things you have mentioned and i'm quite sure khartoum will follow the historical pattern. >> i agree and would be happy to brief on this. >> thank you, senator mine gold. senator corker. >> thank you for having the hearing in general and earl gast thank you for what to do appear in an very appreciative that we have high and our efforts. senator isaacs and i haven't been mention were in khartoum and the darfur region there not long ago been one to get to darfur in the second, but the comprehensive peace agreement seems to be the most crucial issue that exists there now because if we, in fact, are not successful of us, sudan and those who care about the region its use me that all of a minor

gain second place out the window because the cpa in every chain is not good in this is something that i think paul's the entire region possibly to impose so i appreciate your putting everett there and of the efforts and others. there has been discussion about humanitarian efforts already so i won't come into that and one of the things i think is most striking in the idp camps is the lack of security for women. here they in excess in a home that none of us would call it a home and yet there are confined to those areas because of the gender based alliance taking place and we're talking about an area smaller than the area

between you and i right now for sometimes cattle is capped they themselves i there, they cannot wander outside of that area and especially if they are a young woman without being concerned about gender based violence and i wonder if there are security measures that we may change inside these camps which are already unbelievably and desirable places to me. is there something there that we made to that is more tangible than what is occurring today cripes team that you are exactly try to as something that bothers me and i was there an alert hen that the sudanese canty then to in those camps. the government side think there is one who holds an answer and that is to be able to have security of the country so these people can return to the homes and live in dignity with

respect, then how do jaw the da's between where we are right now in trying to receive and that is tough so what we have been doing is working to come up with a plan where securities sectors that is underneath the overall cease-fire secession of hostilities and try to make concentrated it cease-fire zones and court orders so people will be able to go out and start times said it is sort of an alternative form of getting food as opposed to giving the hand of it is going to start by moving in concentric rings for a long course and start with these camps are some people can start moving out and safety which you are correct, the situation we face is unacceptable, that gender based violence is unacceptable and we're working very hard with our humanitarian groups, ngos to stop this because it's not right and has

to end and that is a high priority for me timothy endowment forces were able to go inside the camps and yet when we win and to actually meet with them at their headquarters for a mandate which i know their efforts are really more about in the region trying to control the rebel groups. another mandate is being reviewed right now and in listening to them regarding their mandate one will have to say that is incredibly weak mandate from the things they have to do to counter the rebel activity out there by this time they get through going to their protocol the rebels on gone. in just seems like a no-brainer that that mandate would be changed to allow them to be from more productive to do the things you just mentioned and i want to ask if you could briefly respond i would appreciate.

>> we submitted our suggestions to the mandate and that was in july, and of our working with them to come up with a better man day in anticipation of a political process that ends up in a comprehensive ceasefire and cessation of hostilities and at that point the mandate is going to have to include more things like monastery in the ceasefire by board in the borders and work in the zones and as currently written i don't think it's strong enough and we need to fix that any to ensure the capabilities which may mean more aerial assets to do surveillance and in new control system that allows them to work with local law-enforcement agencies to rub with a local government and rebel forces that exist in the regions to have a comprehensive law enforcement and that the cover we need to do exactly the security peace.

>> unless the mandate is change, even getting back to the protocol encounter a rebel group that of the desert by the time and they get through the things they have to do which basically are waving at them almost the rebel groups are non and again it seems to me that is something regardless of the of the things you are talking about that everyone in knowledge is a problem and can be changed otherwise giving back to the camps they will become permits it is because no one will go out back to their homeland as long as the type of security were not providing continues to exist and i knew you know that but i hope you will work stringently with the u.n. to get that change and i hope all of us will. we met with the central banker well with the air when they talked about the various issues, our stations and i'm going back

to the subpoena and because if we end up having the train wreck on the present course will occur darfur as terrible as it is is going to get for worse and spread to other areas so we met with our intelligence vacancies there in and now many folks here have done the year. the pact is there is no evidence in spite of the atrocities we are aware of the mothers no evidence that darfur is involved as a state sponsor of terror. nine and, so the unintended consequences of that defined term existing i think maybe hurting us as it relates to these other everett's and i just wonder since there is no evidence of that and since we understand the importance of this comprehensive peace

agreement in achieving its desire to end at 2011i am wondering if we are again on one of the pass of unintended consequences no light to respond to that. >> there is no evidence that supports being on a state-sponsored terrorism, it's a political decision. what we have found is the consequences of the sanctions resulted from that and other sanctions are preventing us from doing the development we need to do. the heavy equipment must come in to build roads and rose have to come into khartoum so what is happening is we are hurting out only at local level in a humanitarian level, the people because the can down load educational programs but in addition i actually hurting the very developments things to help us out and become able inviable economic state, those banks are

now stationed at and so you are right, at some point we will have to unwind it is so we had to do to ensure a peaceful a transition in a state libel suit should they choose to. >> we are cutting our nose off to spite our face today. kimmel and that is probably a urinalysis. >> mr. chairman, thank you for this timely hearing. >> thank you, senator j. heim. >> thank you mr. chairman. i am not sure which of you would like to address the question here that i like to follow-up on senator quarters questions about what is happening with women in sudan in the 10 days of violence that has been going on there. when the government expels those 13 ngos there was the programs they were doing including many that and just to show an agenda

based violence were lost pernod can you address with the current status of those are? have any of them been restored pride in is the government of sudan and obstructing efforts to restore those gender based violence programs? >> thank you for your question, you are right. one of the loss of 13 ngos during the expulsion we lost our capacity and the international capacity to support gender based programs including prevention of violence and had to do with gender based violence. what we are doing now is working with existing ngos on a grant to expand their capacity so they can expand the women's programs and to other areas where quote it is slow in coming back and, in fact, if one were to look at the various sectors of that loss

when debt and cheetos were expelled, that is probably the slowest one coming back but it is critical and some that we are mindful of. >> i appreciate that, senator feingold and boxer held a hearing earlier several months ago where we heard it directly from women who had it been in and people who had been working with women in darfur who talked about the deliberate and produce sexual violence as a substitute for genocide in and i think what ever we do can't come fast enough in be important enough to address the very difficult issues that women and families on the grounds are facing so i would ever use to continue in every effort possible and if we on this committee can be helpful

and i certainly stand ready to do that. you talked about the mission in darfur and i know that it was authorized in 2007. we still want supposed to be one of the biggest peacekeeping forces ever assembled particularly in africa and yet we have seen real delays in this deployment so can you talk about that the gaps in their capacity about how we are working to address those gaps and the prospect is for increasing their capacity to address the challenge on the ground in their? >> what we have found is that if we are going to fix the problems in sudan we have to start with the women and if we start with the women the communities come along so you are right we have to restore the respect, the dignity and safety and have to

use them as the centerpiece per really working the humanitarian development things that will come later but on at that we are at about between 65 and 67 percent right now and is talking to the u.n. while i was there on the field they basically said that by the end of the year they should be at 92% of forces and as you know we have been working hard to facilitate those coming from ethiopia but they still have significant gaps in an area that is affecting us in addition to the mandate that is to be adjusted command and control elements, strategic planning, just six planning are probably things where we need to help beef up the support and in terms of soler's i think we are beginning to see a fill their, but in the technical peace if we have to get into this month greenpeace this are doing in tow

sharing and border activities between the two groups will leave my analysis and more work on intelligence side and certainly if we serve the monitoring and use in the overhead aerial platforms for reconnaissance and surveillance we will need more of a high-tech piece of those things probably too premature to ask for but we need to start planning so that we can get the elements if we're successful in the peace process. >> so what is our plan to do that? >> we are looking at coming up with a individuals of that that bill of planners and also helping with the command and control elements and as we continue on in the peace process and covina in the requirements better i will be honest, in the past we have not define the requirements, it was sending six helicopters, send us eight

people, as a regimen and ask why in that really wasn't clear, just send them. the event to get up to 26,000 so right now we have reached a point redoubtable the people lined up to come in now have to be suspended to taylor and the requirements such that the people that come in really feel manages because what we have there now is good and we need to add on to the specific signed keyman thank you, senator isakson. >> gen. gratian, thank you, mr. gast, youtube p. brown out about the charts and mba when i wanted hobbema's you because i believe you were appointed in april, is that not correct? >> march. >> in march we were at less than 50 percent capacity in food, medicine, water and nonfood items in august will be at 100%

and everything with non-food items, is that correct brent. >> there are we have been able to do that because his team have put together some stopgap in emergency measures to make that happen and the other part is we haven't really been able to take that capacity until all the gaps and, first of all, there was a lot of pre-existing gabs that there and it because of the with the distribution has been there still gaps and the good part is that that is occurring capability that we have and we have one new ngos coming back in and as we continue to work this what i'm trying to show is we are going to fix the emergency stopgaps to make them more permanent and that is what we work on a daily basis but would try to get back in and the efficiencies we have gone with sudan and the additional capacity coming in i believe we can have a significant impact in the future is significantly

better and we have a verdict but we thought would be a major crisis in the agencies and we have been able to ever that. >> i was in there in may when you're probably in the 80% range and rigging as in the m. gent deplorable circumstances of their your to be complimented on making up that gap. on the question of the oracles with this khartoum government, the corporation and the counter-terrorism efforts and following up on what senator purvis and regarding that sanctions isn't it true not only is there not any evidence that are cooperating but in fat and they were helpful in stopping the flow of weapons coming through the sudan into egypt later to douse the most recently by the man that is to it and it helped us with key members of al qaeda. >> i think it is important to know mr. chairman and senator

lugar said that was that evidence to me one thing in not having the cooperation but then to have an overt act with never hoping to counter terrorism makes the question senator corporation for asked with regard to recensions counterproductive to our gold so i want to follow-up on that point. next one of the key is two this cpa is being legitimate election in the sudan in 2010. and they give originally established by american and that has been pushed back to apr. is it being pushed back any further or are they legitimately moving toward those elections? >> we are trying to hold to april the both sides are reluctant to in some ways to have elections and we believe in the international community supports that those elections are of poor and for not only who is elected but the processes.

if we can push through election laws and the voter registration and education programs in the administrative processes of balance and security in getting people to the polling stations, that gives us a jump on making sure that the referenda have a chance of being fair, free incredible. if we skip the election it will be very difficult to have a fair and credible referendum to match not only if we skip a free have an illegitimate election it will ensure that the every 2001 referendum monday is a session low to i would think. i commend you on contending to push on that as fast you can and lassie with regard to what senator shea he was talking about i find it interesting that in your other graf of levels of influence and authority looks like dante's los in hayes but an air force level there is a unit

in nations. i don't know if that to picks level of which influences or you put it out there, but it does seem that having been in darfur as inslee as two months of having seen what two plan and is there an seen thick spans of the darfur area a lot don't realize how big sudan is. it is huge. they don't seem to have the tactical or infrastructure support to carry out the mission and that i think the u.n. intends to have their. is that to the u.n.'s fault or false of participating un nations in not following through on u.n. plan? >> it's a combination of a lot of issues and i would say in speaking for the u.n. and moldova things they could do better without of the u.n. and without the support to the mission for security and without the participation in food programs and the ngos and the

support from others, we wouldn't have been able to do have what we're doing. the u.n. can be looked at as the glass half full, i look at as half full and i think we need to work hard to a half them get the capacity they need as opposed to to turn down when they don't measure up some i think that we are working hard to ensure they get the capability and i think there is a capacity that can be used very productively on the humanitarian side in the security side, they're not there yet but i believe they can be. >> my statement was not to be critical of un%. i am not a you end basher but it is making an observation that 15 years ago in rwanda and failure to act in a timely basis to make a difference in tragedy took place and we're on the cusp of a tragedy in everything falls down and the south so it is critical

i think that the u.n. forces in concert with african union did the manpower there but also how the tad to the logistical equipment to secure the rows of those women to go that far when, it is going to take high tech and you're talking about as well as aerial support a theory of these helicopters and continues to work to push them because of that thing does fail in 2011 in the southern referendum where we have a breakdown before that emmet it could be a catastrophic situation for africa and the whole world. >> you are exactly correct but that that on this can cooperate is disastrous. if there is a problem in the three areas in southern sudan those forces in darfur can't come over to assist, that's something that has to be changed in the to starving interoperability between the u.n. command and more of an two

white. pemex mr. gast, thank you for a humanitarian effort. >> thank you very much. i and when to recognize the momentarily senator hoffman. senator final. >> thank you, i ask you the courtesy of a 10 seconds to respond to this statement by senator corker and isaacson with rivera to sudan's counterterrorism operation. i think these characterizations are overstated and do not state the actual situation. i laid out my concerns and a classified letter and would be happy to repeat them here and i live for today lead on this. >> let me just say that it is a very unborn issue with this by to any kind of policy determination that we make and the committee will have classified session in a to explore this so that we can make an intelligence said of judgments and i appreciate the

raising the issue and is one that we need to go at any way so we will and we will do it in the right setting. i was struck by your notion that this is not the most secure setting in the world and i can't imagine why you thought that. [laughter] senator kaufman q1 thank you mr. chairman her home in this hearing here this is really an incredibly important to the difficult problem and i want to thank both of you are working on this problem. and thank you mr. gast on my comments on john brandel who died in sudan and 91 employees. of myself was not aware there were 91. this is a very dangerous place and people die there in anonymity. as i send in the floor are federal employees into this kind of work our incredible people

and doing an incredible job for all the reasons. but john brandel when he died this is jim bunning radius to try to better improve communications in the area. what are we doing in terms of communications in the area by. >> one important part of our program especially in the south is education by radio. the newest shift analysis is now is civic education and giving prospective voters event for elections over the next year from eight to nine months so voter education and civic education are critical components and obviously a lot of people in the south don't have access to schools and so we have devised a radio instruction programs. >> is that the substance of it? in terms of communications, that

is it and and we're doing is trying to educate folks in regards to preparation? to make general education grants and programs. >> what are we doing to prepare the racism coming, what are we doing to prepare to have you with is that is usually a time when we have famine, what is the team doing about that? >> we do have a position of stocks and every season is coming up however we've had to experience a lot of for five years and how to operate in the eminence. as of the general mentioned earlier, and member of the interventions we have had to take the international committee wfp and ourselves monopoly sustainable and so with regard to food assistance and are some things that are unsustainable. for example, instead of relying on ngos to deliver food and plo to monitor that we are relying on local relief committees and

so we are trying to analyze the impact during a season might have on the local relief committee dissaving. >> gen. gratian, senator kerrey of the beginning talked-about we have to just surpass what we're doing pearce is khartoum willing to cooperate increasing humanitarian aid? dui cancer, center, we've been taking a good line of the only stoplight town that violates would have said and trying to do it and with a good that every way to make sure that our indian holding up to the agreements they made. for example, they said there would hold up to the 2007 to a communique which meant that we only need notification as opposed to permission to travel and we're seeing evidence that is working they made an agreement the u.s. aren't issuing multiple entry and exit visas and they're starting to do that. we have reached other agreements

in terms of technical agreements year ago we had a backlog of up to six months and some of the agreements they signed 98 percent of the technical agreements and so we are now working the details america right now, the organization for migration me know that if we are going to get peace, if we're going to start thinking about people moving out we will do this in no way that the human rights are guaranteed and this is not an involuntary term but voluntary and stability and security so we are working now the government to resist kind of aspects and the world food program to start thinking about how we move from a humanitarian assistance into development sickness are putting in the social network so what are some schools and how people can move back into the areas they want to make their homes and a secure stable and human rights that come along with that so i see a

lot of positive change so we have a program that says not trust when verify verify that trust and i now we're in verification mode. when we see more and more things happening it is now very positive, but we also know what we're up again so we're making sure these are verified and then continue to be verified but as the words turn into deeds there is a more trust and more confidence we can build on that confidence not on the humanitarian side of the security side, a political process side and also in the south. >> you also mention that the need to expand the mandate and the need for additional training. what role with the u.s. play in training? >> we have a meeting scheduled in africa to discuss the very issue right now i'm not sure i know there are requirements of

r&r military is draft and not only will we have going on in iraq but also in afghanistan and other missions around the world supply them off but we will lay out our requirements and is a need to do and try to do this in the most effective way of recognizing they have commitments they have to do. >> thank you for all of you do and am looking for that briefing. >> thank you very much. senator wicker can i thank you mr. chairman for holding this hearing and thank you to both of our witnesses i think it is a testament to bipartisan concern about the issues that need senators have spent most listening to the testimony of and have taken a considerable amount of our time today to stick around. i'm sure you are aware speedo is

that there it is a concern that in the administration is now speaking with one voice on the area and the issue of sudan. as you know, during the campaign of us here center obama piven maintenance the scene in his government as practicing genocide. ambassador susan wryness stated on june 15th and tennessee is on going, however, you have stated that the situation in darfur wasn't worth the remnants of genocide. i would be interesting in new commenting at a worse than seems to indicate that you are doubtful there was ever in genocide so it does seem in that respect are you in ambassador

and presidential candidate obama uyghur geneina other also messrs. rice. >> the os lawrence four president al-bashir and that is a statement that seems that on with the administration is engaged in strategy that you have outlined today is run like you to comment about that. >> thank you, the president has referred to the genocide taking place in darfur and that is very clear to me and he has also directed indicating in his on going, you can read that i needed to read it but that is a statement and when he has written me to do is yours the dire ongoing consequences which assigned and that means to ensure that alicia's unassigned

and meant displaced people, persons can return to homes when they want to and where they want to appear in and of the people of darfur who have suffered so much can continue to live and work and live in peace and security and dignity. >> don't you think it is simple and for us to know to the best of our ability whether there is a continuing genocide ongoing as ambassador i stayed in? >> this is a definite issue and one i can do is only this time but i see him i can do and the ambassador had a conversation about this seeming difference? >> i'll tell you in public that susan rice is one of my dear friends, there are few and in the los fess salary to an susan is one of them. i love susan and susan and i talk and that we disagree on

some issues, but it is not a personal thing and there is not -- given and no one is suggesting that but it is fair to say. [laughter] i am heartened to people in the administration of on of each other. >> we are. [laughter] and this say that to say that there has been characterization's of susan on one side in may on the other side it. the has been honesty but that is why we have at the debate so that we could, but a strategy that reflected a comprehensive and innovative approach to ensure that all anonymous for taking care of and right now as you know we are focusing on saving lives, making sure that people who live in the idp camps canada's best they can and have a future. >> in our opinion, of me doing now only with the remnants of a

genocide that is over? >> on bass and the genocide is over but what i'm saying is that my focus is on recovery. i have been a refugee myself. we lost everything we owned one left the congo. i lived in a panic mode waiting to try to find a house. i lived in people's clothes. i now want people to go to that situation, i want people to live in that environment. i understand it and am passionate about changing its and it doesn't matter what we call it in my view, what matters is two have people living in dire desperate conditions that must then, we have women that fear for their lives and have their souls ripped out of them and that has to stop those gender violence continues. my view is that too involved in the debate that is not required if is not as important to fixing the situation which is required, that is what the president has

asked me to do and that is what i indicated in is 24750 left 15 that led the move and it is to another line of questioning. seven to find only ask you specifically clinton and you'll evidence to having that khartoum santi in good faith and out like you to elaborate on that. as a number of senators have expressed their concern about this policy of national engagement and i guess we can talk about carrots and sticks as opposed to a comprehensive approach but it seems to me that any comprehensive approach is going to have a combination of carrots and sticks. senators have asked on a plan

and asking for concrete progress on a number of fronts in the have called for benchmarks the time table to hold the government accountable. and invest in administration not to rule out further punitive actions and more muscular steps in our approach to the national government so what is your response to that? >> i will give you an example. when i took over we had 12 areas where we had major goals in implementation of a comprehensive peace agreement. we started with 12 hour a day meetings in washington concern with today's and expanded to another. then went to khartoum and we were able to reach agreement

when every single one of those except the census and i talk to the leadership on both sides and will resolve that at a political rebel. there are timetables and will be happy to share with you all those agreements that remained not because of us that because we greeted the agreement so that the two parties could make the agreement. that is the way i see our role right now to be able to change the amendment to help push an area we can push to help is the international community to push not for the u.s. to make policies there batuque the animus of those different views from the south and north can be rationalized and problems resolved. we will go out there and next month to raise that agreement of 15 key leaders of the two rise presidents. we're not pushing the rebels, we

are pretty and i'm so they can unite in the same with some of society. in rents and making come together, and identify the issues and their leaders and then facilitate them going to bill hopper weaken and the building a comprehensive peace agreement required to bring peace to darfur so what i see is we are not giving anything. we haven't given anything and we've got an agreement of things they can agree two not necessarily with us the things that will move our shared vision of what sudan should be. >> appreciated to respond on the record about the specifics which you just alluded to. >> thank you very much, senator thurmond and his. eni thank you mr. chairman derrin i want to thank you for your service.

but i have to be honest, i had a meeting in the off us bar listening to some of your answers and what i don't understand and thrilled to glean from i heard is you of the third or fourth special envoy we have had the sudan. we have real engagement by citizens in this country on this issue and my home state of new jersey and across the country. we have thousands of letters of that engagement by people and have the political engagement and the highest levels of our government. we have funding for humanitarian programs. listen to as an advance or a multi latterly so high real difficulty in understanding what is missing. that we cannot move for a. of time sitting in a can of

still facing pretty dismal conditions and a word about my security and my life the council so patients until they do not satisfy any of it was one of us sitting in those camps i don't think we would be satisfied by what we hear so i am trying to grasp what is it from the elements we're missing here and despite everything we hear meeting with others that we're missing that we cannot reach the conclusion of successful conclusions we want in turning the tide and the lives of these people? >> a very difficult question. all i know is we have a plan to try to make a difference and that includes five tracks in darfur which is the political process, security elements i

spoke into oncoming humanitarian assistance in selling the problem between chatting and sudan, we have an integrated conference of way to implement the cpa, we are thinking about what we can do to stabilize the eastern security pac and the ngos sitting on the suicide. all i can do is work all these problems together, we've assembled the best team i can. we have a brave people that are helping us, we are pulling and expertise from the hole in the national committee to help us do this. we don't say the u.s. consols problem but we will believe there is a solution and we cannot fail. they're too many people whose lives and the pending our success and that is why we're putting together every effort we can and president obama has given me the support and secretary clinton has been supportive because we understand this is the one where we have --

>> our time frame is we have an election in april next. a referendum in june. the number of days left is about 174 janelle action, to his 62 until the referendum and that is almost mission impossible but i believe there is hope and that we can succeed in this fight everyday seven days a week to make this thing happened. we have a terribly compressed time line, have an almost impossible job to do but if we sit back and do nothing we will certainly failed. i'm giving everything i can because i believe. >> i have no doubt to our getting all you can a included legislation in one of our previous legislation giving the human resources from the federal government because tennis side doesn't have an off site of this. the reality is i am trying to get a sense what is it you don't have the geneina of anything

when you have everything that she now. >> the second thing is linney the space of sanctions. there are things we're doing better hindery me to bring the development of this out. there are things that are hindering because we have sanctions that are keeping the people from getting the education they need and we have a blackberry that connects them both to finally institutions so that doctors can call into the latest medical help and i can't estimate because the sanctions. the very elements that we need and equipment to develop in the south can't come through khartoum because it is sanctioned. we'd have to take a new look and

say what two and we do to ensure the southern sudanese had every opportunity to be birth as a nation but that can survive on its own and if we have worked issues and put ourselves in the proverbial box. we're going to need help in those areas. >> what does this say, we are talking a lot about the intelligence use, power but what does this say about our ability to succeed with some power in times of trying to get the goals of saving these of people's lives and changing their lives? >> all the elements of the things we're trying to use, but what it comes down to is making a difference that have the capacity it means being more development and means having a more integrated to them and program that the sudanese

themselves, cliff and that is what we're asking people to do is come up with the plan and figure out how it can work with them on a plan to make them successful fear it isn't about us doing this, it's about us helping them help themselves and the african region to help itself and that's what we're trying to do. >> women go on to get firewood and end up getting ripped up in the process. there is a lot of promotion of alternatives and has a i believe that this and thought what is the best of canada so that we can better secure those who are in the camps? >> we did have a discussion of women's issues and your right. if there were in good effective fuel-efficient cells that would reduce the exposure of women outside of the camps. quote we had found this some of

their early models that have of a fuel efficient souls and haven't been living up to their promises. there are not as efficient as and then let us to believe so we are now working on the city to help identify ways of improving them so that we come up with a better design and fuel-efficient >> it is in progress now and i can give you with any definition when it will be completed but will certainly work with you and your staff on that. >> we are going to move in a moment, let me share with you i think there is a debate that is important to obviously with respect to our policy and the choices that we have available.

it's also a debate that is fraught with some difficulties at this point in time which is why intelligent and committed people can have differences of opinion and according of genocide convention any of the following five acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part racial or religious group. two members of the group. causing serious bodily or mental harm and deliberately inflicting on the route conditions of life calculated to bring about physical construction. on this claim significant today about the camps and the people's ability to move with it on to be with adequate protection and so forth and imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group that forcibly

transferring the children to another group. international law includes within genocide this issue of the creation of a civil conditions that lead to the destruction of the group and so forth. there's a lot of room for argument and i think what gen. gratian is saying to us in this debate is the ongoing impact, we are living with it. darfur is a living day-to-day fell in terms of the impact in 04 and 05. but obviously the kinds of activities that led to how many people the accurate people, the best evidence about that? >> today we largely have

criminal activity which takes some lives, but serious questions about whether is the remnants or independent acting or otherwise versus the government driven effort in the way that was in 04 and 05 so this as a stick and are you about and the critical thing is if we sit around and do that all the time we aren't going to give those camps taking care of and it mr. gast talked about the and sustainability of the current situation and i want to just to paint the picture and what you mean by an sustainability in the context of the post march for the events? >> one referred to on sustainability what we have done is had to ask nitrous to take on roles that they're not used to doing and so it means that they are not implementing programs that meet acceptable international standards. i mentioned for example, the delivery food aid.

we have a monitoring element built in all along the way. we can do that now. we don't have the resources. >> and the government and khartoum facilitate our ability to do that better? to amend the germond of khartoum can facilitate that ability to do it better by doing what it is doing now. >> so since my visit there is a sense that there are more engaged? >> the problem is it forces rebuilding that capacity. we talked about all the progress of the government has made and that is in issuing technical agreements and issuing visas and not requiring travel permits. the one area that they have not fully implemented is the return of assets. and so assets that were seized

post large fourth have not been returned for the most part. we are rebuilding capacity and rebuilding capacity 2.4 will have full sustainability of and greater coverage than we did prior to march 4th and we are doing that by expanding the presence of existing ngos long, curving spending programs be able to bring in more international staff, hire more local staff and the general mention for ngos coming back to sudan, three of which will work in darfur. >> mr. gast and general there is more to be covered but we don't have time any to get to the next panel. >> wonder if i might have another moment. clearly the chairman's comments are well taken, however in the mass of darius is correct and if

there is an ongoing with genocide then clearly the congress and the united states approach to dealing with the government should be different. who i wanted to ask one question about the secession and low to appear and i would be surprised if the south did not vote to secede and under any circumstances appear and the expect this sudan -- the khartoum government to honor this vote and one of the implications of that? >> who i believe that they will honor the vote and i believe that the agreements we have made right now, the north and south have a green and legislation such that the vote will take place with the without the required legislation so i move

the vote will have been and that what we understand of the vote happen today they would vote to secede but we will see what happens in 2011 but i think they will allow it to happen. >> khartoum will allow the seceding sound to go quietly? and peacefully and orderly? command that is what we're working for, quote implementation of the cpa that will allow of the vote for there to be unity, for peaceful coexistence, that is what we are striving for with the negotiations and the work we're doing. >> let me to say, very important line of inquiry, i want to be declared to because it is important here till i believe that gen. gratian is on the right track and i think his engagement and saves lives, it has enhanced our ability to be able to advance the peace

process both in its darfur and the cpa north and south and i think the consequences of not doing both would be disastrous. so we are presented with a difficult situation and i also believe that what was happening in the over manner is not happening today. and not going to get up and the argument and speedo has appropriately said we can spend our time doing that in the key is the government moving to address the critical humanitarian concerns and advance the peace process itself. if it is and we have to rely on our experts we have a very different situation confronting us and i think that is the key thing we have to look for in our policy that there are real asks an real measurements of what they're doing and the advance that process and that's exactly what gen. gratian is doing this

time from this critical. and is going to take heavy lifting by heads of state and special envoys' and others to advance those so with that said the and the invite a seamless transition. i need to meet with those found in the nsc friend minute, senator lugar is going to share some gen. gratian for an administrator, thank you for being here. we will leave the record open and another will be additional questions particularly mr. gast. we just didn't have a chance to get to some of the things we need to know about the u.s. aid program and will afford to do in that. thank you for being here. we invite the second panel to come up and take their seats. senator the anger, if you did chair i would appreciate it. [inaudible conversations]

we're able to progress with our distinguished panel and i will call upon you in this order, first of all, david shinn and then dr. eisa and then susan page. would you please proceed. can i thank you very much, and want to emphasize the that the situation existing in sudan today very much in los the entire region surrounding region. i would also suggest that most of sudan's nine neighbors would prefer to see problems between northern and southern sudan