people being tortured but in reality, the people forcing them to do this humiliating behavior are westerners, the british and american soldiers because it is in the western eye is that the most humiliating thing you can do is force 2 men to have sex with each other. the soldiers in the media, islamic and middle eastern homophobia that fuelled this, i would argue back that it was western homophobia that had fueled this form of humiliation, this form of torture. 7 is interesting when we have these discussions, the homophobia is not necessarily from the middle east and muslim countries. we have historians rejected the middle east on to muslim countries. ..

>> they have already been in the news both in mainstream formats and gay formats.zt my experiences in the middle east and those of other people who are traveling in some

countries. one of the things that i think is very important, i'm best known as a travel writer. we go to places and convey what it's like. that's the roll of a travel writer, simple and complex things. what i wanted to do was also with this book. take a look at parts of the world that many people are afraid to visit and explain not just in terms of other issues ankleture, what it is like to have visit these places. the question that i ask, and it's always a very difference answer, how many people here have been in the middle east? so we're looking at may be roughly 1/3, little under 1/3 of the people in the audience. sometimes we'll have 7%, sometimes nobody.

it really depends. but again this is an area of the world that we are curious about and we don't seem to know as much. most places you go drinking and hear about fancy hotels. i love that. i actually just got back from living in argentina. but for me visiting hotels and visiting these fancy places is not the main purpose of travel writing. for me it's about promoting cultural understanding between countries, between cultures if

the person who is afraid and the person who loves to read about that place. my personal belief that only through this kind of cultural understanding can we prevent -- cultural understanding and not the invading that we prevent future 9/11s from happening. only through literature and understanding. that was another purpose with the book was to promote that kind of cultural understanding and do it with a gay twist and do it from an understanding than nobody else has done. it's not just my writing, and the writing of other people, there are guy muslim and nonmuslim people. some are writing about their experiences about growing up as first generation muslim americans living in suburbia.

it's really a combination of 18 different voices. i wrote a chapter on afghanistan based on my first visit there in 2002. they take all of that and link it together and look at the issues that i just talking about. what's going on in the current issues, what's going on in the news? they also talking about my own background and how that influenced how i wrote with the middle east and muslim countries. depending on the audience that i speak with, some people are very familiar with some of it. are you familiar with jeff key? he's a gay soldiers based in iraq. he had come out on national television after he left iraq. he writes a lot of plays about

his experiences. he used to live in los angeles, now found love and lives in utah . so he's a contributor to the book. another one is "gehad for love." which is a movie about gays in islam. he talking about what it was like to travel the world and try to speak to gay muslims around the world get them to be on film and tell their stories. that's another chapter. after the editor of the gay magazine which in american the magazine means freedom. he has one in arabic and english. he recented started a gay islamic press. there are other men who have also written stories, many men who have lived in the middle east and muslim countries.

there's a couple things that i want to point out in this book. as i'm speaking, and i've been using some of these terms as i talk. i'm painting some very broad definitions. i'm using muslim world. it's a very artificial term when i say "muslim world." we would never say i look this trip to the christian world. it was fabulous. i have to tell you about what it was like to go to the christian world. you won't believe what it is like. we would never do this. yet we do use these terms such as muslim world. and i am using that, i will admit. yet the muslim world like the christian world is extremely diverse. it's very difference from paris, france.

both in the way it treats day andist rammic issues. that's probably one of the most important islamic cities in the world. so you have very different experiences looking at many issues in the christian world. as different as brazil from denmark and chile. so again it's a very artificial term, but it's one that i use, and that we must use to sort of at least begin the discussion. another thing that i want to point out that is rather artificial is gay and same sex/same sex love. i'm using these terms to begin the discussion. gay is really a western world. gay as we know is primarily a

western concept. gay doesn't necessarily always explain everything. i'm using that as a term to start the conversation. same sex love or men who have sex with men which are parts of the world that we use in our country, some people say you are talking about the down low. that's a western perception. and i don't want to necessarily get hung up on words. but we have to use words to have an discussion. be aware that any words you use in the west doesn't describe another culture perfectly. we'll use the term gay, but maybe we want to talk about men who have sex with men and same sex love and things that are defined but happen. that's something else that i talk about in the book. the other thing that identity is not necessarily behavior, behavior is not necessarily identity. in the way that what we do in

the west is what we are, it's not necessarily the case in the middle east and muslim world. again my use of the word is not 100% either, but i'm using these terms sort of just to begin the discussion. the other thing is homosocial, and the separation of the sexes in afghanistan in that details article. but i want to point out, which is often pointed out when people aren't particular with the middle east, homosocial, or when one gender socialized just with one gender and not the opposite sex. it doesn't necessarily mean home sexual. you did fine men always socializing with men and women with women depending on the country. homosocial does not mean

homosexual. but the point that is very important to make that if we're in chelsea here in new york, if we see two men holding hands we know those are two gay men. because within our culture, two men hold hands, they have to be gay men almost exclusively. in countries, men will hold hands that in no way means two men are gay. but one of the things that happens in a homosocial country is that that which is homosexual can exist in public and be hidden at the same time. so while two men who hold hands in the west almost definitely means that they are gay, and if two men hold hands in the middle east, it almost never means that they are gay. it means two men who might be

gay or two men that might have a stronger friendship that society thinks, can actually in a certain way be hidden. that's another point the difference between homosocial and momoactual. that which seems to not exist can exist openly and not openly at the same time. the other thing that i want to point out. this is something that's very often discussed in topics in the middle east and countries. islamic law, or a form of it. we've often seen discussions of this particularly as it relates to the women's issue. it's about that which is allowed and not allowed in the culture. i want to point out this very important when discussing homosexuality. it's something that's very important for the culture is the

notion of privacy and witnesses. witnesses is a component of the islamic law. we know this from a very bad point of view from women's issue. is a woman is raped and there are no witnesses, it's as if it never happened. it's a bad component if i'm going to judge and say it's bad. if there were witnesses that would mean that she's a whore. that's a problem as i interrupt it. however, as it might relate to certain behaviors like homosexuality. if two men have sex and there are no witnesses, it would mean that inspite of the fact that something is forbidden, it never really happened at all because there were no witnesses. so that's how something can also exist within the culture as a bit of a work around. this applies to many bayers. if there are no witnesses for

adultery, then it didn't happen. if there are no witnesses for drinking, then it never happened. that's a component that's very important that's part of that law that still allows certain behaviors that might not -- that we would say couldn't happen to happen even within the context of the culture. whenever i bring up this point, what i always try to point out to people is that within the christian world if you want to view the united states as a christian country, and in general really it is. no matter how many other religions are here, we are the largest christian country in the world. but christianity and catholicism has a lot of work around for what is forbidden and what is allowed socially. when i think i'm pointing out something unusual, because it's from the culture that they are the familiar with. in catholicism, you're not

supposed to get a divorce. you know, henry the 8th split from the church because of this. so within catholicism, you couldn't get divorced. but what were some of the work arounds for getting a divorce? if you live together. what are some -- annulment is one. that often comes up. you know what is really the number one work around is adultery and cheating. this is an issue right now. the home of the catholic church for the -- right from the leaders on down. so within catholicism, if society in a catholic country said you couldn't get a divorce, the world around was to commit adultery. he, usually it's he, sometimes the wife will have a person on

the side, now we know, if we know our bible that adultery is one of the -- it's one of the ten commandments. that you shouldn't commit adultery. but yet within a catholic country that's the normal work around when society does not allow you to get a divorce. so while i'm going to bring up some of these work arounds. it's not as if we don't have these in our own countries. italy is a perfect example. now divorced is allowed. it's where the catholic church is where the work around is the most famous. in france, it was the same way. whenever his president would die his wife and mistress was there. we have these work around. other cultures that we are looking at, really aren't that different. that is really what i want to kind of say before i dive into the book just to kind of give

you some background about why i did these book, why i wanted to look at some cultures, some makes cultures different and the same from ours. it's very topical. fortunately, this book is very topical. i'm going to read a little bit from "gay travels in the muslim world. " and i'm going to read a little bit on the section in kabul. are you guys hearing me? are you fine? okay. after that we're going to have time for questions. i was raised in a measuring that taught me to hate muslims. when i was in grade school i was shown pictures of dead israeli babies and told that is what

muslims do. it was vilified to not support the palestine and air -- arabs. there was of course the photograph of mal come x. he was contrasted against the peace loving, and obviously very christian forever in martin luther king jr. the photographs and the explanations between these two leaders made clear by the religious affiliations only serve to justify the words of my teachers in the minds of us students. certainly the white ethnic neighborhood of my neighborhood largely choosing catholics played a huge role. the conservatives and prejudices might have reached, but all still felt the sting which lurked around the corner from

furnitureless houses. they needed an enemy. jewish play mates always have visits from grandparents who had survived the holocaust. everyone had cousins and aunts. swords weren't being in plow shares there. the two were worshiped side by side. living room were adorned by photographs of guns and farm implements. the iran hostage crisis, all of these issues were alive and well in my classroom and neighborhood with arabs and muslims the enemy. the philosophy, the idea that these people of the deserts lives in ways, was part of the curriculum. we were taught they were a dangerous threat to our american way of life. that was a world and people i

had never met and have no way of knowing other than through the images in my teachers hand. the messages in her voice. the words on the blackboard and school books that were taught by the images at home on the television too. i grew up in suburban, new jersey. the most diverse place. yet in matters of muslim welcome there was little understanding. between school, television, community, there was no way to like or understand the truth of what is muslim was. so that's a little bit of the background. i'm 40-year-old, i'll be 41. that gives you the idea of my timing in the childhood on all these issues that were going on at the time that were clearly part of -- were brought into the classroom, and how that influenced me when i was very young. i began to talk more about my experiences traveling when i was

college my experiences traveling after college. so it's a little bit of cliche we i talk about travel brings that understanding. and again in the preface, i bring up all these issues just before that i talked about in the introduction. i'm going to read a little bit from the chapter on kabul. i've been to afghanistan three times. this is from my first trip in 2003. i knew what you wanted when you told me i was attractive. i am from kabul. i know these things. part of a neat frayed and dusty black suit. even when he made rubble, he tried hard to keep a sense of fashion. he represented a side of kabul few foreigners know of. inspite of its postwar ruin, this is a capitol city.

anything goes atmosphere. however this 21-year-old english teacher told me i was old. i was 35, but in a country where few men hit their mid 40s, it wasn't hard to fathom. we hit the road, i was on my way to craft shop, and as he passed he held my stare. half an hour flew by as we conversed. men in uniform, women parading back and forth. he kept telling me his father was a policeman. was he telling me to make me stop or say he had special privileges. like others i met and said i was gay, some said i should have gone to the gay capitol. ironically, the taliban's head quarters were in that city.

yes, they did murder gay men. but eventually some came to like what they saw. if jerry had churches only in west hollywood, he'd have to tolerate and absorb much of the behavior he claimed to be against. though i couldn't help but hear, he was sure his 26-year-old friend already partnered with a 35-year-old man. he wanted him to meet me. i would become privy to people who threw parties with a chance of sex with other men. other encounters raged from sudden the to open. on first glance, if you are familiar with the country, the men holding hands means nothing. however, under the surface, there's more going on. my most interesting meetings

were without any translator, when it was just me unfiltered. do you remember the impulse body spray commercials? walking in kabul is like living in one. a few times on flower streets, men offered bouquets and said they loved me. the kind of greeting american soldiers would have in baghdad. in america no man ever greets me like this, and if they did i'd think they were psycho. still, like holding hands, this didn't mean anything. it didn't always mean anything. so that i'm going to read a little bit when i get to the party that i was invited to. but it was interesting. afghanistan american friends were terrified that i was going to get myself killed. and much to my surprise, it was sort of the opposite. even at mosques, i would have

very clear passes made at me. it became this topic of conversation everywhere that i went with soldiers and -- it was just something that i didn't expect and quite the opposite of what i was told my many afghanistan american friends what happened by the time i got there. so that was in the first, very beginning of my first trip. i'm going to read more. i want to point out this is on the street there. kabul in 2003 is very different from the kabul of today. since the invasion, since our emphasis on iraq or afghanistan, the streets are not as safe to walk around on. but at that time in 2003, it was very easy to wander around, very easy to interact with locals. but that has changed. so i'm going to read a little bit more. can everybody hear me? just a couple of more minutes, then questions.

this is my thoughts as i'm waiting to go to the party. i had many reasons for coming to afghanistan. after september 11th, i was able to help in the cleanup of ground zero. digging in the rubble a few days after, i swore i would see afghanistan to better understand what happened. as a new yorker, i'm believe we are linked to kabul, both created by us and other nations and what it does to the world to bring peace. unfortunately, few in washington share that view. beyond this from a gay perspective, i was constantly reading articles hinting at afghanistan hom sexuality. they mentioned farmers who greeted soldiers with offers of sex. details magazine discussed with gender separation. the collection of warrior images

found by a photograph named tomas dorzak. very books mentioned it too like jason's elliots "an unexpected light," where people made passes on him. the only first person reference appeared in the magazine "tricone" about a gay afghanistan living in pakistan. no afghanistan had brought the story back to the rest of the world. i decided i would be the one to do this. every afghanistan american i knew worried. once i was hear, i realized it was safer than the news would have you think. still how much of a risk was i willing to take? all this passed through my mind once it was like to meet.

i was staying at the hotel full of journalists and odd characters. some here, for reasons they would never disclose, the owner knew i was investing kabul's gay side. i simply told them i was doing interviews. the hotel protective assistant manager always wanted to know my whereabouts. i made him speak to my cab driver to clarify the directions. he thought the whole thing odd constantly asking me why i was heading there. when my cab pulls away, he looked awful, in refusing to have the hotel's driver wait for the address he told me i should not go to. he said he was only five minutes, but the ride seemed to last forever. as we moved along we slipped into places where electricity no

longer work. i called him on my cellular phone and he sounded drunk. he invited friends to meet me. this made me suspicious. thinking we were lost, i handed driver the phone. they engaged in a long conversation, the driver laughing and looking at me. what was he telling him? was he purposely lost? i wondered if i was led into a . : in amazement at the

clear afghans guy, full of stars made brightersky, full of stars made brighter by the intensely dark electricity. all were shoeless but i kept my boots on trailing just across the carpet. at the place of honor they motioned me to take on the large window, through a wall, i could hear women in the house but i never saw any of them. i felt on display. so many men around me.

susan mort men entered. one man could do nothing but scare, his eyes transfixed on me. his face of it is an expression as terrorists stereotypes on television. if i were here to meet sky and, who were these other men? the conversation was stilted but my conversation with stilted but i forced into a talk-show host's smile asking who knew english, perhaps they needed to be put at ease as much as i did. that is all i am going to read from that evening. now i will read from the book. the rest of the evening, to be honest, i never knew what was going to happen, if i would get killed, from centrality, they all brought it up, i would go from points where i was scared to points where i was very curious, trying not to show that i was a little bit scared. nobody knew where i was.

the hotel manager told me not to go there and if anything happened, i had no idea where i was to get out of there. many of the men had guns. that is normal in afghanistan for everyone to have a gun. the other thing that was interesting, every time i got comfortable they would do something to make me very uncomfortable. at the time the movie titanic was very popular, everyone watched the movie titanic, they would pop in a dvd of the titanic. after a while they said would you like to watch a movie with us? this conversation is going on, i said ok, thinking it was going to be the titanic. then the guys showed me a dirty movie, it was a picture of afghan warriors superimposed over an exploding image of the twin towers. this is really the end of it, they put in a video and it was

russian soldiers dying in the snow, bleeding to death, and they are all cheering. so again, i really didn't know -- that is not the end of me, it is called a it jihad video. i didn't know what would happen, i stayed quite late and returned another night. my personal view is if you are afraid of something but you're curious, you need to check out. that is what i had done. that is really it. i would love to open it up for questions if people have them. just get the questions, does anyone have any questions? you have a question before. >> i had understood that the taliban said they would put you

to death. is that true? >> that is correct. i went -- for want of a better word, killing fields, the taliban kill a lot of people. you have all heard the pushing of a brick wall over adulterers, homosexuals, people who had committed crimes, i had gone to that area where the walls were toppled over to kill people. some people actually survived such things. that did happen. at the same time, it is known that many of the taliban did have sex among each other. the thing about canada are that is interesting to point out is it has the gay reputation within afghanistan. they make they jokes, there's even an afghan legend that says birds fly over with one wing because the other they protect their backside.

for fear of anal sex. even the birds are afraid that somebody will -- it is part of the culture from which the taliban came, it is one of those twisted irony is that yes, they did kill men who were, quote, sodomites, yet they practice among themselves. is one of those ironies that can't really be explained. >> do they use it as a political weapon? >> it is used as a political weapon. homosexuality takes different expressions sometimes. is about power -- i was stopped by a policeman. my translator was very insistent that the policeman was a homosexual and was very afraid of this interaction i was having with the policeman. he once to have sex with you, force you to have sex with him as a component of his power.

it can be expressed in that way. so yes, it is part of the political power that can be used to show that somebody dominates over someone else. any other questions? wait just a second for the mike. >> as a man, you are not privy to where women were at that party or whenever, but did you manage to find got anything about women who love women? >> yes, not by going to parties for women, but war zones have a lot of western they men and lesbians in them.

it is a component of being able to travel on a moment's notice to the various. there were quite a few lesbians working for some of the ngos to give me some inside advice about women. and a friend of mine who ran a beauty parlor would tell these wild, crazy stories of women living together. the women and make it around each other, their vaginas are there for everybody to look at, to determine which has the areas. these other things that go on behind closed doors. as a man i am not privy to any of that. something that is homosocial does not translate to homosexual. , but it can. there are women that i've met who i think if i were to stereotypes, i would assume they probably are lesbians. some of them had not married. i have come across women like

that, but because of language barriers and gender barriers is very hard for me to get into some of those discussions. again, depending on the culture. but are to find interesting as a gay man in these areas with gender separation, we find this in the west, women are more comfortable around a men. women still sensed there was something different about me and would have a certain level of comfort they might not have with a western straight man for example. it is interesting how the dynamic change. i have heard these stories but a woman really needs to do that. i can't do that book. any other questions? >> you mentioned you had been three times to afghanistan. any particular reason for that? >> i love afghanistan. it is one of my favorite places in the world.

i have often found the worst places are the best places because they have the nicest people, maybe because of all they have gone through. first, was in afghanistan was in september 2003. i tried to go earlier but it never worked out. i was supposed to go with an afghan american friend who had to pull out at the last minute because he was very worried for his own safety so i went alone at use contact with other friendss. i went again in 2004, first time in 2003, i was only in cobble. the wanted to go to can are but the problem was the flight patterns, there was a problem with my flight returning so i had to return from cobble back earlier which dropped four days, it is not an easy place to get around in. can dollars a half-hour flight but it might? four days to get on the flight. in 2004 i had gone as a journalist to do some volunteer

photography for a friend's organization, there was a group called the afghan american peace corps, distributing animals to windows. so i had gone there. i had really gone around as a journalist to do a favor for a friend who had pulled out the year before, traveled with another photographer friend, that was a five week trip and i did as much as i could. i don't get into this discussion but there are men who perform in drag at parties, many of them are prostitutes, many of them are orphaned prostitutes. i wanted to interview such young men, said that is something i had done on that trip. i went back in 2005 for their parliamentary elections.

i was doing several travel pieces at that time. i had done a times piece, a bloomberg news piece, at that time, it is almost laughable, a travel piece that i had done, they were going to build osamaland near his case. i went to build an amusement park where americans -- someone would dress as osama bin laden. that was the big news. so i went to go to is caves but the problem was because they hadn't found him they couldn't build the park. sort of a joke of an article. bent mort gay investigative work. afghanistan, if you ever go, when it was part of the hit the trail when you were on drugs when he went or you were very

wealthy and you went, you have former drug addicts, it be to have money would love to go back, it was a fantastic, beautiful country, still is, just more difficult to travel in. i would love to go back, just hasn't happened. >> is there a difference between cobble and canned are? >> it is a bigger difference than going from new york to boise, idaho. it is a very cosmopolitan capital. you have all the ngos, you have all of the united nations, the state department, the embassy's, it was always a very cultured city, very different from the rest of it. the taliban change the equation. the various wars change that equation. it is very busy. go to can dart and, it is a little more -- has more going on

than the outskirts but sometimes, i would say to friends that it is like driving in to the bible. it is like going -- like going back 2,000 years in a certain way. the difference between cobble and canada are. it is more than the difference the swing going from manhattan to boise. does that answer that question? anyone else have any other questions? you have a question, alexander? >> i recently read an article in the new york times that a lot of gay men were being killed and wasn't but a government or the police but by their families. do you know anything about that? >> talking about iraq? that is one of the things i went to look at. i had been to iraq in 2007, july and august of 2007 to look at gay persecution in baghdad and

other parts of iraq. the interesting thing, baghdad was actually a a very cosmopolitan city, of the most important cities in the middle east, a city of learning, city of culture, said tom -- saddam hussein was not perfect, no one would want him back and as a secular leader, he kept a relatively cosmopolitan city was art and culture and theater and gay life was part of the fabric of the city. that is not to say men were openly gay, but you could go to they cafes, night clubs that were very mixed, it is part of the fabric of the city, women, art, culture, all of that. the invasion by the u.s. change that equation because it meant there was a religious insurgency that he had been suppressing the whole time, could suddenly rise to power. that was very bad for anyone who was an artist, for women in the

workforce, for gay men in particular. i looked at that in 2007, going back to iraq this summer. what has been going on since the surge is that the surge has worked, you can argue that the surge has not worked, baghdad is a safer city than it was a few years ago, not to say it is safer than it was before we invaded but it is safer than it was a few years ago. you are beginning to see cosmopolitan life come back to iraq, back to baghdad. as part of that, and they men have begun to go to cafes again, they have become more visible in the way that women have become more visible in the workforce, artists have become more visible. the army, the militant army, they are not legitimate any

more. not since power surge. they have been suppressed. the only way in which they can get back into power is to attack gave men and to use the notion of homophobia, that this is against our culture, to come back. what is happening because of that is men who might have been protected by their families are either being killed by their families or being thrown out of their house because it would be very dangerous for the family to have an openly gay men in the house if they know that someone from the army is going to be coming to kill their son and probably anybody else in the owls, so you have, within certain neighborhoods, people killing their children before the army can kill them, or want to kill their children as part of the odd -- concept of honor killings so this is part of the equation. the other problem, with a place

like iraq, it is difficult to determine why someone was killed. is difficult to determine, was somebody killed because they reggae or some of the, quote, clues that somebody is gay is they wear western clothing, they like western music, they have long hair, which is a clear that someone is westernize or my work for a branch of the western governments, so you never really know. this is the problem in iraq. you never really know exactly why somebody was killed. you have a lot of -- what seems to be a disproportionate amount of gay iraqi translators who work for the u.s. government, are they being targeted because they work for the u.s. government, are they targeted because they are gay? it is hard to flesh it out. this was happening two years ago, it stopped, now is

happening again. you had another question? >> the president said there are no gays in the whole country. to you have any information on that? >> there are couple things i will say. i want to make clear i've never been to iran. i don't often like to talk about countries i have not been to. but there are many pundits who make their living talking about places they have never been to. so i will make a comment based on what i know and speaking to people who have been to iran. if you look at his comment, it has been said that he actually was misquoted when it was translated into english, what he was really trying to say was not the we don't have theys in iran but we don't have gays like you have in iran. what that could mean is there not open because mahmoud

ahmadinejad is in charge. there's clearly gave persecution in iran. i am not going to necessarily say the two young men who were hung in 2004/2005, that image made its way around the world, still not 100% clear if they were targeted because they reggae or because of other things, but that is part of the conversation. i am friends with the gentleman who was from iran who escaped persecution and is now living in toronto, canada, and he runs the iranian railroad and he works to get men and women out of iran who are being persecuted, the canadian broadcasting company had done a thing on gays in iran and tehran, they actually showed the faces of some of these men and those men are being persecuted. so this does exist, it is a problem in iran. i have not been there to do

direct interviews but clearly it is a cosmopolitan city. i have never been there but it is a capital city, a big city. no matter where you are, a gays or some form of homosexuality is part of the cultural fabric. and part of mahmoud ahmadinejad's rise to legitimacy, which will happen with the elections coming up, it is easy to go after gay men. we know it goes on in the united states, gave men and women are often targeted because it is easy to do that, and use the idea of morality to attack gays the matter what country you are in, so that is why we are seeing in iran. whether he was misquoted, i don't know. i can't remember what he said directly. that has been part of the conversation. does that answer the question? any other questions? >> is it easy to get into iraq

or afghanistan, is the war area far away? that is what they make it sound like, that is right in the middle of everything. >> it depends on where you are. the first, went to afghanistan, i flew a commercial flight to istanbul. i did need a visa that i got from the afghan consulate. it was easy to get. it took the day and a half. that was fairly easy. the rest of the country, i took the united nations flight, a tiny, short flight, very expensive, that was more difficult. can dart is more difficult to get around in. the logistics of getting around in a country that has had 30 years of war. imagine if you don't have roads. those logistics'. iraq, was a little bit

different. i had initially gone in to the north, which was safer and easier to get into because there were commercial flights from europe and after ten days, you have to renew your visa, then i took a military flight into baghdad. the u.s. does not operate flights, the regional capital, japan does, in to baghdad. japanese military flight that i had to be on, there were commercial flights, but i was going to go into the green zone. at the time, the army -- you had to go on a military flight if you were going to be in the military's press center, so you couldn't take a commercial flight to baghdad. that was complicated, all that bureaucracy. once you are there, it didn't seem that complicated but the logistics of trying to do interviews with dave men in baghdad. i could not do those interviews in the green zone, so i had to

hire security to take me into the red zone, do the interviews and the reds and because a gay man could be killed trying to come into the green zone. is dangerous enough for and iraqi to come into the greens and because it would indicate that he or she is probably working for one of the foreign governments or the iraqi government, which is not necessarily always considered a legitimate government by some people there, and you have to wait in line for hours sometimes. the insurgents are surging you. said the safest thing for them was to do the interviews in the red zone, so logistically, i was told of a bargain, $500 with security. now when i go back, i have been told i could walk around much more easily with in baghdad. hope will probably take a bus. i haven't decided. i will probably be able to move around, but what does help me in

many of these countries, i don't look typically american, i am not blond and blue-eyed like all the americans on television. i have been detained for imitating an american, is impersonating an american in turkey. i am italian-american, so i am darker and can pass as arabic. i pass for all kinds of things. so that is helpful for me until i have to open my mouth. i have a certain mobility based on appearance. somebody was blond and blue-eyed. i will find out when i get there, something very easy, some things aren't. the war zones are a different story from the actual capitals. it is very much that skill, the movie's about the 1940s where there's all this stuff going on in the capital, intrigue, spies, it is exactly like, and fine wine and dining, that is very much what it feels like.

>> did you bring any books? >> i have books at the end. i definitely have that. any other questions? anybody else have more questions? yes? >> you would not advise gay people? any countries in the middle east that you would not advise gave people to go to? >> in afghanistan -- something about a train, the taliban, in

between -- having sex with boys, at the same time killing this woman? gives me the impression that it is dangerous for gay people to go there. >> one of the things that i want to make very clear, i am not talking about -- it is gay pride month this weekend. i am not talking about walking down the street in go-go shorts and a rainbow flag. that is not what i'm talking about. much of what i'm doing is underground, much of it, sometimes openly gay, sometimes not. i would never tell anyone not to travel anywhere because they are day. one thing i also make clear in this book, if you talk to gauge diplomats, places are full of a diplomat's, gay members of the

state department, members of the military or the non-military effort, there are a lot of gay western people in these zones, many of them really enjoy being in these zones where everything is nebulous, things are undefined, you can use that to your advantage, and also, being as old as i am, what people know of western culture, it can come up in conversation but indirectly because things are nebulous, you're 35, if you're 40 and not married a year from the west, people figure out your probably get a the they won't necessarily use that term, they just figure it out. so i would never say to anybody not to go to a place, you are also looking at a movie that takes place under the taliban. i would also think from a travel perspective, people of any orientation may have hesitancy to visit a particular country that has been torn apart by war. the they're fascinating places

to go to and places that are part of our own country's history, they're now intertwined, to a degree, with american colonialism, part of the american empire, the edges of our empire, in a certain way, they're part of our history, whether you are gay or straight, you need to see it, traveling as a gay person in afghanistan and iraq and jordan is not the same as traveling in germany or mexico. is very different. i did never tell anybody not to go. you have to be different from how you are in the west. if you are too western holding hands in an eastern country they are going to know that you are probably dave men. that is something to be aware of even if other men are holding hands. if you are western they know you are different. does that answer the question kind of?

any other questions? okay. great. if anybody has any questions that they don't want to ask in a public forum that they want to ask me something on the side after words, that is fine, i will be here, free to sign books and answer any questions that somebody doesn't want to ask. do you have a question? >> on 9/11, one of the men, i had never read or heard any of that -- >> there have been pieces in newsweek, pieces in the gay press. google his name and they and you will see the stuff that comes of. >> and make the association between terrorists and gaves. >> it would seem that way. it was