documents that about $100 billion bill in remittances back to latin america, $100 billion during by immigrants, legal and illegal, but earned by immigrants in that grassley i was born direct investment or foreign aid together so this is efforts from the immigrants themselves to do what we have a great interest in seeing done to some support for development. >> and they do pay taxes. >> if we are to permit the next panel to start -- i am very sorry to "mary todd lincoln", and it

craig symonds, author of "lincoln and his admirals". >> i'm distinguished prof. of history and the chair of the curriculum with on peace, war and friends at the university of north carolina chapel hill. today we have two outstanding box covers one written by dr. 12 -- jean baker, she is a professor of history, she received her ph.d. at johns hopkins under david donnels, she is the author of numerous books including a biography of james buchanan and sisters, the lives of america suffragists, perhaps her best book is a there's a party, political culture of northern democrats in the mid-19th century, and today she is going to talk about a phenomenal biography. two my mind the best on a mary todd lincoln and one of the finest biography is i have ever read. >> joe. [laughter] >> costar $20 to get that

comment. [laughter] our second speaker is an old friend of mine, craig symonds, and he is well-known to people here at the key school, the cross country coach. volunteer i might have. he is professor emeritus of the u.s. naval academy and the author and editor of over a dozen and a half books. his most famous books are a barbie of joseph johnston, a biography of patrick labor and, a book called decision and see which is about five naval battles the ship american history, but today he is here to talk about what i think is his best book, "lincoln and his admirals". abraham lincoln, the u.s. navy and the civil war, this book won the lincoln prize this year which brings all sorts of prestige as well as a tidy lot of cash. [laughter] so we will start off with a gene and then move to craggy and at that point we will open up to questions from the audience.

>> thanks, joe. i'm delighted to be here. i am a native of maryland but it is my first visit to the key school. and what a very impressive institution is. i am also a thrill to be a part as a neighbor of the road in baltimore county of the annapolis boat festival. and i am here to talk about my biography of the mary todd lincoln. who is as many of you know our most controversial first lady. she has been accused and listen to this, of trapping her husband into marriage, being pregnant -- gasp -- at the altar, having a terrible temper to the extent that in one historical account she tries to kill lincoln by throwing an iron skillet at him,

by spending too much money fixing up the white house during wartime, and finally and most devastating for her of being crazy. now, and today is mental diagnoses, this has become a being bipolar. now, mary lincoln was a spiritualist and one of the things that, in fact, was one of the things that led to her unnecessary institutionalization, and whenever i talk about her she appears here and i am not a spiritualist. perhaps she is in those bright lights and that we had, perhaps she is somewhere in the overhead lights and air, but what she says as she appears to me is, tell them the good things about me, tell them how i made a home for abraham lincoln who had no home, before i created one for

him, tell them how i loved my husband and children and how i cared for them, tell them how i fixed up the white house until it was admired by everyone in washington. so for a few minutes i will tell you some of the good things about mary lincoln. a first lady who i believe has been unfairly maligned. she was born in mary todd into a very aristocratic family in lexington -- lexington, kentucky in 1818. what is impressive about her early childhood is, first of all, her interest in education. this was a time in american history when the very few girls went beyond what we would call the sixth grade. in fact, mary lincoln was still in school when she was 18 years old and once the watchman in

lexington saw her running up the hill and he thought she must be eloping because she was running so fast. what she was doing was actually trying to get to school. for other great talent was to some extent also an ladylike. and that was her lifetime interest in politics which was fostered by her father, robert scott taussaud, who was an aspiring wigan states senator. in 1837h19 mary paul of her older sister to the new burgeoning capital of illinois. springfield. she left because her mother had died and been replaced by a stepmother whom all the talk to sister is despised. stet mothering is never easy for family business, but roberts was especially bad at it. in springfield living in her sister's home, she was the belle

of the ball. she was charming and flirtatious and intelligent and interested in party politics in a town that was the center of such activities. and she would according to her brother-in-law made a bishop or get to his prayers. [laughter] summer she attracted the detention of an abraham lincoln, the new lawyer in town, and lincoln came with some uncouth manner. of this is his 200th birthday, but i do think it is fair to say that abraham lincoln when he arrived in springfield needed to be gentrified and he met a woman who could do that for him. lincoln used to come into some of these events in springfield and jeans with a 6-inch gap between his socks in his shoes,

sars, his socks in his trousers, and he would say, how these girls smelled good. [laughter] and number 1842 they married after a courtship that was disrupted by his hesitation minute lincoln didn't believe that he could afford such a wide and by her family's objections. her sisters said over and over again that lincoln would never be the equal of the aristocratic talks. but love triumphs, and as he slipped on a mere tots finger a ring engraved with the words as summarized in this couple's relationship, love is eternal. now began mary lincoln's domestic years in springfield as she wore her four sons as she greeted a middle-class family

live for abraham lincoln. and she ran the house, she cooked and cleaned, she lost one of her son stood tuberculosis, and a three -- provided love and care to a has been as he moved up the political ladder. my wife says, i am going to be elected president one day, said lincoln to his friend, henry witney, on a train one day, and lincoln at that point of fog at the possibility. but then in may of 1860 after he had twice lost the illinois senator ship, lincoln became everyone's second choice at the republican convention. probably not a bad place to become the second place with a majority, and he was nominated for president. and in the fall when he returned from pennsylvania came in, and

lincoln had carried the@ú@ú than 12. mary lincoln's great project was to fix up in the white house and make it a proper setting for receptions that served as a public space for in the informal but important face-to-face conversations of politicians,

foreign ministers and military officials. in these events are also opportunity is for ordinary soldiers to meet their president and what many described as his friendly and accessible and very elegant wife. it is true that she overspent the budget for such an improvement here is also worth noting however, that she did not have the power of the voucher. evidently the commissioner of public buildings agreed with her about the importance of this case will renovations. but as it did to so many american families during the civil war, the war brought sadness, a deep sadness to the lincoln household period 11 year-old willie lincoln died probably of typhoid and february of 1862. mary lost three stepbrothers and a stepbrother in law, they were

all in the confederate army on the battlefield. and then on that terrible night in april of 1865 just as the war was ending and just as a this couple hoped that they would have a a future together without the terrible burden of the war, abraham lincoln was assassinated before her eyes as of the couple held hands in her memory during a performance ironically, the comedy, our american cousins. later mary lincoln would write that abraham lincoln had been her all -- my lover, my companion, my husband. now begin at mary lincoln's wondering years as a widow. at first she hoped to buy a home in chicago and live there with her remaining two sons, tad and robert. but she soon found she did not have sufficient inheritance to

buy a home and live comfortably. in her efforts to support herself when she tried to sell her clothes in new york ended in humiliation as the press described in mrs. lincoln's old clothes sale. then she took tad to europe and lived for a time in frankfurt, germany, while the tad a slow learner when to school. returning to the united states in 1971, she lived in a hotel and it was there, another dreadful day when 18 year-old had died a slow and agonizing death from pleurisy. the was more sadness for mary lincoln, in 1875 per only remaining son, robert, orchestrated an insanity trial and without warning she was taken off to the cook county

court house where she was declared insane by a jury, and all male jury i might say, and sent to an institution outside of chicago. certainly she had been shopping too much, excessively we might say today, but such expeditions killed her lonely days. she also had a seances with spiritualists in her hotel. but she was not insane in my judgment. she was only a sad, bereft window with a perfidious son. mary lincoln spent only three months in this institution. she was working the whole time for her release. the latter was not easy given the determination of both her son and the director of the asylum to keep institutionalized. but in september of 1875 with the intervention of one of the few female lawyers in the u.s. at the time, meyer brad well,

mary lincoln wasn't released to her sister's home the same one that she had lived in when she first came to springfield. and then fearing that robert would again try to institutionalize our, she fled to paul in southern france near the pyrenees for the air was crisp and the day is clear. here mary todd lincoln lived for four years alone until a bad health possibly diabetes made it necessary for her to return to her sisters, in springfield where she died aged 64 in 1882. as her biographer, i came to admire her persistence and her stamina. she seemed like a flawed piece of marble whose crack -- the death of her loved ones in the

infidelity of her last sandra. hers it seems to me is a live and that eliminates human condition, a family love and loss, of convention and nonconformity, of pride and humiliation, and a determination and destiny. her life was in line but within its particulars i believe she suffered universal experiences and was a dangerously ourselves. [applause] >> craig symonds. >> thank you for helping put this panel together. i'm glad to be back here at key school where our son attended from fourth grade through 12th and my wife worked for many

years. and as you mention where i have coached a cross-country team. but i am going to talk about abraham lincoln, this being the year of lincoln, it is the bicentennial year. a couple months ago we celebrated the 200th birthday of abraham lincoln, our 16th and not by most views best president urine and i think there are two reasons why he has been in our minds so much you're one, of course, the bicentennial and the other is president of, has made a point to make it clear that abraham lincoln is his mentor politically. there is something about the tall skinny figure of lawyers from illinois connection as used to work for them and then, of course, choosing the bible that abraham lincoln used to take the oath of office in 1961 as the bible obama used in 2009, there was some symbolism to appear in an edition, of course, abraham lincoln has never been out of our consciousness entirely.

his face is not quite ubiquitous but certainly common. he would have said as much himself, the calmest days in america. we see him on a $5 bill or perhaps given the economy these days the penny derrin [laughter] and there have been by one account at least 16,000 books written on a abraham lincoln. 4,000 of those are juvenile titles which is in my mind a good sign, young people of america. about abraham lincoln and there are if you better lessons. but what is interesting about those 16,000 books considering the fact that war, the civil war dominated his presidency from virgil the first day to its last and his last. there are relatively few books among the 16,000 about lincoln as a world leader. one of my favorite books from this long list is by harry

williams who in 1952 wrote a book called lincoln and his generals. and you can see immediately how that inspired me to think, wait a minute, what about lincoln? none of those focused on a relationship with the navy which is why i undertook the study. but i used it now so much to talk about the navy will that is part of the store as to talk about abraham lincoln. this is not an operational history, not a lot of gun smoke or smoke of any kind in this book but there is a lot about lincoln because i wanted to focus on how he managed the men who manage the navy so what this is two simply another prison by which we can examine in this extraordinary man. it is curious and talking about lincoln as a world leader that he hated war. i think he hated war almost as much as he hated the slavery. he did served briefly as a militia captain elected captain

which is the way they were chosen in those days 1934 during the black hawk war in illinois and tollman stores about it, all of them self mocking. one of his favorites was he was supposed to lead his men were all lined up side by side margin across a field and there was a gate in the fence that had to get through and he could remember the orders to get them to turn around and go through so he said, a company called, the company dismissed, reform on the other side of that fence in 10 minutes. [laughter] got the job done and, of course, like many of his stories it has a certain element of truth in it that demonstrates his pragmatism. you can solve the problem a legitimate way, find another way. indeed, lincoln made his first national reputation as a kind of war protesters introducing a series of resolutions in the house of representatives to compel the chief executive then president pulled to show the spot where american blood have been shed, the declaration of

war in 187 had an effect on the ground that american blood had been shed and lincoln are not necessarily on american soil but in disputed territory and, in fact, the mexican war was a set up was set in order to provoke a war in order to extend american nationalism into the western territory and slavery could prosper so here is a case whirling and despised both more and slavery in the mexican war promoted both of those things. we know he had no real education, probably he said i have spent less than a couple of months in orrin as classroom and his entire life. but he was a lifelong autodidact, he taught himself and was a gracious to learn as much as he could read and that included, of course, living about war. on the first day of his presidency it became clear that war and its problems would land on his desk, he made a point to

check out from the library of congress as many books as he could get his hands on about war. his principles of war, organization, fortification and so forth, but most of his decisions as commander-in-chief were guided by instinct and what i suppose could be called common sense. and what were the keys to this? identified three that i think are particularly important and more to talk about only one of those, the three our patients, pragmatism which i have already mentioned and an absence or near absence of ego, a remarkable phenomenon in the national leader by the way. i want to talk about the first one and that is the issue of patience. there is a view i think among americans in particular but people generally that the leaders should be proactive, the need to get out in front and be decisive and know exactly where they're going and all times and to push the country in that direction. this did not describe abraham lincoln. and i want to cite three quick examples to demonstrate this --

the first is the first problem that landed on the presidential task and that is the problem of fort sumter. the first day he was president he received a message from robert anderson who was inside for sumter saying he was completely surrounded by forces usually outnumbered him and running at a food. and you, mr. president, have to make a decision and pretty quickly before my men start to death about which are going to do about this. here is a conundrum with no answer -- manion have just pledged in his inaugural he would hold occupy and possess the property of the u.s. a specific reference to for sumter and wouldn't withdraw and to do so what to begin his administration with a craven act of surrender and, on the other hand, had also promised he would not a sale the seceded states. you cannot have more of us to begin in yourself and so what to do? patience i think it was his great strength in the crisis, he talked to as many people as it possibly could getting advice from military people and army

people and navy people to surprise of almost no one, that absolutely completely disagreed with one another. but lincoln in addition to gathering information also waited in in the end he perhaps almost waited too long, supply ships headed for fort sumter and arrived the day that the confederates opened fire on that aaron but that patients did give lincoln and the opportunity to toss this problematic ball into the enemy court and he notified the governor of south carolina and an expedition was coming with food and supplies only for besieged men and their families including women and children inside the fort and that they were not the system they would not attempt to reinforce but if it were he would throw in reinforcements as well. that put the problem on jefferson davis's desk now how to decide to i assert seven nationalism by attacking the four or do i myself begin the

administration with a craven act of surrender and allow the supplies to be landed in the end that he decided to fire on the ford and thus beg@ú captain named mr. willes, a difficult fellow to deal with, like almost no one. certainly those he commanded, who decided on his own hope that he would stop the mail package from britain, a ship and international waters carrying the mail for her majesty's government and author of that ship he would take and kidnapped if you would or seize if you prefer, the ambassadors the confederacy had a point to britain and france, mason and slidell, and there to male secretaries and i carry them off to new york where he was given a hero's welcome. there have been almost no good

news in the world so far so when wilkes showed up in new york with the is would-be ambassadors of britain and france he was treated as a national hero given parades and testimonial dinners and so forth, immensely popular at home, but he had behaved in violation of international law and that became clear pretty quickly with the british reaction that if the u.s. did not immediately release those individuals and apologize within seven days the british ambassador was instructed to call for his papers, the first step toward declaration of war, and what did lincoln do about this? he waited. he was aided in that by the fact that there was no transatlantic cable existing at the time, one have been laid in 1858 but it broke in 1859 and not reestablished until 1866 so that during the civil war messages had to go by sea in the conventional way and that gave him time, they had to send word

back to america and lincoln knew that in the meantime public tempers, public enthusiasm would have an opportunity to cool. and eventually they did and helped by william seward, his secretary of state, lincoln came up with a formula that's said in a practice that i see now that you british have recognized that stopping ships, high seas and taking people off of them in time of war is a violation of war -- we have been cindy since 1812. [laughter] and now that you agree with us we will be happy to release mason and slidell. well, it worked in the crisis was solved, but i think the key here, once again, is lincoln allowing the passage of time to mute the enthusiasms of the moment. and he responded with a tight fist shaking the finance, many of and whelks supporters would have preferred, it might well have meant war in the united states might well have had more than a simple fighting both the confederacy and the british

empire at the same time. .. >> the economic burden of

slavery will expose its... lack of any realvain a modern society and it will die, of its own dead weight. he never imagined he'd have the ability or opportunity too, bollish slavery, there is nothing in the constitution that gives the president of the u.s. the power to abolish slavery within a state but there is quite a bit in the constitution about the president being the commander-in-chief of the army and the navy, in time of war. and with the establishment of the blockade enslaved persons in the south refugeed from their plan tagsz, down to the coast, waved down union ships, asked to be taken aboard, camps were set up for these refugees, called contraband in the lexicon of the day along the coast until there were thousands, tens of thousands of these formerly enslaved persons along the coast and the question was what to do about them and in fact the navy's blockade of the south

created a circumstance where lincoln recognized he'd have to deal with this intractable problem before he was politically ready to do so. he knew which direction he wanted to go, but he could only go in that direction as far and as fast as public opinion would allow him to go. some of those enslaved persons, the contrabands were enlisted in the navy which became in the great long before the army was and had been integrated and multi-racial service virtually since its founding and there were fewer problems with bringing sup of the contrabands into the navy an it'ses were settled into refugee camps and lincoln considered the establishment of an american colony in central america, now nick wag ra and northern costa rica, for the establishment of former slaves. but in the end what he saw was the momentum of war itself created an opportunity for him to use his powers as

commander-in-chief, to strike taet institution of slavery itself. abolitionists saw lincoln as knicks excusably tardy. what is he waiting for? why is he fooling around and wait until the fall of 1862, even to begin to speak about the issue of emancipation and when he speaks to manse nate only those in areas controlled by the confederacy where the emancipation proclamation would have no writ. the conservatives, of course the war democrats and the peace democrats, called copperheads in those days thought he had gone far too far in the direction which suggests perhaps he got it about right and i think the best comment on this, actually comes from frederick douglass, in 1876 gave a speech in which he was asked to talk about lincoln, did he deserve the title great emancipator and this is what he said and i want to read it. i want to get it right: viewed from the genuine abolition ground, mr. lincoln

seemed tardy, cold, dull, and indifferent. but, measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical, and determined. and i think lincoln's management of the navy throughout his abbreviated tenure as president is a case study that illuminates not only his management style, the way he dealt with people, but, also, his generosity, his pragmatism, certainly his humor and of course his humanity. thank you. [applause]. >> very fortunately we have time for question and answers. 'operative word is questions. that means you ask a question and you don't deliver a speech. [laughter]. >> and our authors will then answer your questions.

so, yes, sir? >> i would like to ask professor baker, about her opinion on the mental condition of married toed to lincoln. you indicated that -- mary tod dlink con, you said you felt she did not suv from a mental condition and accounts i have read much smaller than the volumes that you have studied, do document that she was given to long periods that alternated between melancholy and she tended to spend quite a bit of money and in fact was counting on re-election to pay some of her debts. and today, many clinicians would ascribe that to a personality that is suffering or a individual that may be suffering

from a bipolar disorder. i would like to hear your opinion about that. >> thank you for the question. it is one that resonates about mary lincoln. i do think we should make the distinction between being insane, clinically insane and of course i don't think she was, and being highly neurotic, the way many of us are. [laughter]. >> i believe that mary lincoln was a narcissist and i must tell you, briefly, a story of going to three psychiatrists so that i could talk about this issue and this is a true story, the first one that i went to i believe thought that i thought that i was mary lincoln. [laughter]. >> so we didn't get anywhere. but, subsequently, i did -- interview a psychiatrist, and he

led me to this view of narcissism, a woman who had had many blows in terms of the losses and those are the nares cysts, this people that are not full, and who have losses that they account for in various ways, sometimes spending, sometimes bringing attention to themselves. so i did not believe, even... when i looked at the documentation at the trial, that there was any hard evidence. this was a trial orchestrated by her son, who wanted to send her off to the institution and he was the one that had gathered the witnesses who testified against her, by the way, she was never allowed to testify, after all she was a woman. her attorney had been picked by robert.

he never presented any defense. so a final point, and then, because i could talk all afternoon about this. a recent book argues for the bipolar diagnosis and i'm not sure that you can apply contemporary mental illness to historical characters. i don't think that works. >> yes, ma'am? >> do you think lincoln was concerned about her mental... at this time. >> indeed. indeed. i think he was always concerned about her. her health but i also, mental health. i also want to make this point that she was concerned about him. when bring up the word, melancholy, which is this other side of bipolar that is where it doesn't work, it is, craig can speak to this. it is lincoln that is now discovered to have been depressed. we have upgraded melancholy to

depressed. and who she is constantly trying to make him happy, to interest him in going on -- unfortunately going to the theater. et cetera. you want to talk about lincoln and melancholy. >> there's a book called "lincoln's melancholy" which attempts to make a diagnosis of him as a depressive and i'm not familiar with the psychological characteristics to say whether that is accurate, and i find the book convincing but i think there was a lot of mutuality and a lot of support going beatty ways in the relationship. i recall the moment -- week after willie died, in the white house when lincoln was distraught and came out of the office and tears running down his confederate flaggy cheeks and said my boy is gone, i can't believe it is gone and mary took it equally hard and harder and shut herself up and lincoln went into see her and to paraphrase, mother, which is -- was his pet term, mother you must recover,

they'll come and take you away from me and lock you up. so, they each worried about the other's depressive moods, i mean, in a general sense, not a clinical sense. but it does speak to i think what jean is saying about the relationship which i think they lean on each other, extraordinarily throughout their married life. >> yes, sir? >> question for professor symonds, i'm enjoying your book, i'm up to chapter five but in the process i'm overwhelmed by what you had to deal with in terms of the process of doing the research, of gathering your sources. i noted that, you know, the papers of the some of the principal people involved were scattered from california to washington, d.c., to new york, and duplicate places for a number of people and there were thousands upon thousands of official records you had to apparently survey at least in the national archives. how did you manage that process? how did you get your hands around that. >> this is actually every historian works in this way.

this is one of the goods in this and bad things about being and historian, we are forced to go to places like the huntington library in california where you do work in up the gorgeous wood paneled library and at 11:30 they ring a silver bell and you are required to go into the rose garden and have tea! it is... [laughter]. >>... somebody has to do it, you know? but, yes, it's true that individual papers, the papers of the prince call characters and almost any drama are not conveniently located in one nice, tidy little place and they are scattered around from princeton to new york to columbia south carolina, and chapel hill which has a wonderful resource at the wilson library and the huntington in california, and those do require some motoring about. but the official records, conveniently for a civil war historian are gathered quite nicely together in 31 bound volumes, still, in print, from certain selected book sellers, and the official records of the

union and confederate navies of the war of the rebellion, a companion to the official will look through, you know, folder after folder after folder and find nothing that you can use until you finally find the one gem and then you are so excited about it, you start bouncing around in your seat but the research is fun. but, for me, personally the writing is more fun. i really -- i am a word smith and like playing with the words even more than finding the information. >> you and abraham lincoln. >> is that right. we have another thing in common then. >> yes, ma'am. >> i wanted to ask a question about the quality of patience, the attribute that is such a fine attribute for any politician.

do you think the current president, senator from -- previous senator from illinois will be able to have that ability, because of instant information that we demand, he was asked at a press conference, why he didn't make a decision about some question and he said, madame i wanted to think about it for a while before i made my decision. and do you think he'll be able to have -- be allowed to have patience. >> well, first of all, i'm in the sure that is an abraham lincoln question. but, let me take a stab at a. i think it is much more difficult for a 21st century statesman, of any stripe and particularly for president of the united states. to try to allow time to suppress the public mood and pundit will be talking about it around the clock on cable channels and that creates pressure for him but lincoln had some of that pressure, too, if you read the herald and opposition newspapers during the civil war airport

thaft him all the time and using word like imbecileity to describe his decision making and there is a great story of lincoln who made it a point to read all the opposition papers as if president obama were watching fox news all the time, but he read all the opposition papers and someone asked, how can you stand reading that and he said it remind me of the story of the diminutive man who is large wife beat him over the head with a stick and someone asked, why do you tolerate that and he said it does her a world of good and it doesn't really hurt me! so i think there were pressures on lincoln to act sooner than he did and what made it possible for him to resist those pressures was an extraordinary confidence in the direction we wanted to go, if he were unsure, maybe i should shift here and maybe listen... high allowed that to roll off his back and, if you are strong enough, you

can do that and that is the third of the three characteristics i mentioned. there was patience, pragmatism and absence of ego and we'll see whether the current holder of that office has absence of ego but i do think he has the same instincts in that respect. we'll seem time will show whether... >> please, go ahead. >> let her speak. >> i wanted to follow up on what craig said from the point of view of the structure of the government. 19th century presidents were considered to be a little more than administrators. and there was no sense of being a party leader. when lincoln was elected there was a republican majority congress but no one in the united states had the idea that he would have an -- liaison in the white house, who would trundle up and down pennsylvania avenue and try to persuade

congressmen and senators to pass legislation that he wanted. so, i think sometimes we are infected if that is the right word by a 20th century mentality, that sees our government quite differently than indeed these presidents and congressmen did during the 19th century. >> okay. yes, ma'am. >> i'm -- i wanted to say, mainly battle, the -- the battle is between the monitor and the merrimack and i wonder if lincoln was interested in the high-tech of his day and took an active interest in upgrading the technology of the navy and all of that. >> i could have planted that question! [laughter]. >> absolutely. yes. there is kind of a story, i'll try to do it as briefly add -- as i can, news, there was no such thing as industrial secret in the civil was, lots of conversation about spice but all you had to do was read newspapers to find out what was going on and became clear in the

north that the south, confederacy was converting what happened been the steam frigate merrimack into what they called the css virginia, the iron-clad warship, that was built on the hull of the old merrimack and that it might be wise for the north to consider some sort of response to that and see, gideon wells formed a committee, usual response of government bureaucrat, and, the committee was composed of three captains invited submissions, proposals to build something that could respond to this iron monster being built down in hampton roads, and the several people sent one in. including a fellow, cornelius bushnell. who was acting as an agent for another design and when they looked at the plan bushnell presented they said, i don't think it will float. you have far too much iron and iron sinks and it is heavy, so you better talk to somebody who is an expert on this and find out and the person he was told was an expert was john erickson the swedish immigrant living in brook -- brooklyn and he took it

to him and said will it float and he said yes, it will and do you want to see my plan for an ironclad and he said yes. and brings out the model stloefsal that became the monitor and bushnell knew there would be opposition and he made his way first to see secretary of the navy welles and president lincoln and these were simple times and you could walk into the white house, is the president busy, i want to show him something and in you'd go and there is a wonderful scene bushnell describes and i can envision in me mind's eye of bushnell bringing out this gadget and lincoln, 6'4" lincoln bending over and looking at a and he was a gadget guy. you know, still the only president ever to hold a patent. number 6469 for a device to buoy vessels over shoals, a maritime patent and interested in this and said what will we do, i'll present it to the ironclad board tomorrow and lincoln said i think i'll go with you. so at the ironclad board here's the president, the 800 pound

gorilla in the room and the captains are saying, gee, i don't know, it doesn't look like a ship, has a respond thing and there is no masts and is not what we had in mind and mr. president, what do you think and lincoln, again, characteristically for him said, well, it remind me of what the girl said when she stuck her foot in the stocking. i think there's something in it. and with that, the board said, i think we can probably back this thing and so... [laughter]. >> the upshot is lincoln was very much interested in the modern technology and used to take himself regularly down to the navy yard to watch the testing of new weapons and often asked to fire them personally which he did and making a already too long story a little shorter, yes. is the answer to your question. [laughter]. >> i'd like to pose a question to jean, using the moderator's prerogative. i'm curious why everyone -- not

everyone but large numbers of both contemporary and subsequently historians feel the need to put down mary lincoln in an effort to prop up abraham lincoln and present him that's long suffering man in them to. >> who here reads soccer -- socrates and knows about zantipi and who reads shakespeare and knows about kate? i think there is in the male consciousness this feeling that a great -- great men can't always have... what should i say average wives and so what mary lincoln does in this oppositional view to mary todd is to give the americans their

heroed unsimmed -- he doesn't even have to have the good wife, in fact he wants a bad wife. and therefore, americans can either make into lincoln even a greater icon than he might otherwise have been. so i do see that a tem pes tus woman, not ordinary in any way and -- might be called disorderly in the sense that we use that of women who step outside of their time, i do see mary lincoln can play that abundantly important role in the mythology of american heros. is that a proper answer. >> an excellent answer. >> yes, sir? >> question for professor symonds you mentioned three

characteristics lincoln had that helped him rule. i wonder if the one about hope/faith could be added to those three. even though it is a paradoxal fact since he was not a very religious man but tended to read the bible quite a bit and know the -- knew the stories of the bible. by heart. >> first of all, there a a number of cherish risks beyond those three that helped him be an effective president, i didn't mean to imply there were just three but these were particularly prominent in his decision-making process an h question of his faith is interesting, there were a number of books recently out, it also seems to have migrated somewhat during the civil war which is understandable, given the terrible cost of that, for which lincoln must have felt some kind of individual burden and responsibility. he could easily have said let the erring sisters go in peace and 620,000 lives would have been saved. i suppose.

but felt an obligation. lincoln himself, of course, never belonged to a church. did not believe in the disc vicinity of jesus christ. read the king james bible as much as a history book as he did for revelation. and, i think never really became religious in the sense that a 21st century audience considers that. i think he became spiritual. in the sense that he hoped that mankind generally could overcome the burdens that it was dialing with and that gave him strength to deal with them as well. but, certainly, hope, obviously faith of a kind, were among the arrows in his presidential quiver. but as i say, the whole question of lincoln's religious experiences would require another entire seminar, a very complicated problem. >> can i speak to that, too. piggy backing on your question of craig, i think that we need

to divide lincoln the fatalist, the guy who believed outside of religion but nonetheless as a deist that what happened happened, kafrom the lincoln wh comes to believe in providence and providence is as craig says, has nothing to do, specifically, with the christian religion. it does have to do with his view perhaps from the pure tans, that providence will dis suppose. man may propose, lincoln will propose, but providence will dispose and this is most brilliantly and eloquently expressed by lincoln in the second inaugural. just a brilliant speech that i hope all of you will go home and

read. even if it is a nice sunny day and you probably want to get out into the yard. [laughter]. >> thank you very much. let me remind everyone, that mary to dlink con by jean baker and lincoln and his admirals by craig syn -- symond are outside and both authors will be delighted to autograph your purchased company and thanks for coming out in such large numbers and thank the panelist for a wonderful question. [applause]

>> that was done in association with the republican national convention. that has been done in association with a lot of different events that have been hosted by a much larger professionalized marketing apparatus that has been -- that has been produced under his administration so there's been a lot of luxury-like images that have been -- that have been produced. and