modification and rescue services left them high and dry after receiving an up front fee of $1347. more than 200 illinois consumers experience the same problems or similar problems with this firm, according to a complaint by the illinois attorney general. we believe that the collection of advance fee for loan modification schemes and debt settlement is a key problem, and we are currently supporting state legislation in california and apprehending the collection of advanced these for foreclosure rescue. this is a national problem with projected 3.5 million mortgage foreclosures set to take place this year, so consumers union is very pleased that the ftc is now using its power to promulgate rules, prohibiting or restricting unfair or deceptive acts or practices concerning mortgage loan modification and rescue schemes. with respect to hard-sell reverse mortgages, and our march article also warned consumers against the dangers of hard-sell reverse mortgages. banks and mortgage lenders are targeting seniors with

television ads to entice them to take equity out of their homes through reverse mortgages. in an economy when many families savings have plummeted, such offers may indeed be attractive, but the lenders often bundle high fees, insurance charges and commissions into the loan and try to aggressively cross so consumers with other types of financial products such as annuities which may not be suitable for the. consumers union believes that the sort of reverse mortgages should be required to make sure that the loan is suitable for the borrower and that there is independent one on one pre-mortgage counseling. we also believe there should be caps on origination fees for all reverse mortgages and better restrictions on sales practices. we commend senator claire mccaskill whose proposed legislation in this area and that preventing fraud and reverse mortgages and required a ad for government backed mortgage review their benefits. hyphae debt settlement. we profiled a family ensnared by coming offering these services to collect the fees but provided

no significant services. this industry as we heard earlier and has expanded rapidly as consumer debt has grown and changes in federal laws made it very difficult to file for personal bankruptcy. attorney general's in new york and texas have filed suit against debt settlement company for failing to provide services to customers. we believe that the fec should ban the charging advanced these and debt settlements and kaposi is based only on a low percentage of the amount of which the debt is actually an permanently the amount owed -- code when the debt settlement contract was first signed. in addition, we believe all of these initial problems could be dramatically reduced if congress will pass legislation to create a consumer financial protection agency which would be a critical public and for stronger consumer protection and financial services, both by more carefully reviewing the financial products that are offered and strengthening enforcement in response to consumer products and complaints. in recent months, consumer reports and other consumer protection officials have also

warned about a range of other recession related internet scams related to employment and work. these include job search services, unemployment benefit scams, work-at-home schemes, and websites that promise access to government grants. we very much appreciate the efforts of the ftc and other consumer watchdog groups and regulators to shut down such practices. we would also encourage media and internet companies that accept advertising to carefully scrutinize advertisements that make unsupported promises and take advantage of financially stressed consumers. or ads that make unethical or questionable claims. we believe that as a matter of corporate responsibility, companies that accept advertising should not be sending consumers up for financial hardship. the ripoffs described her to become a rite of forms of permutations and unfortunately don't lend themselves to a one size fits all silver bullet solution. however, we believe that

everyone across the board needs to do more, starting with the consumer who has to be ever on their guard very skeptical of offers of financial help and extra income, and particularly when those offers come for businesses they don't know or have an unfamiliar track record we also think businesses should exercise more corporate responsibility, and they should redesign or withdraw products with high fees or financial traps built into them. we think it's also a critical time to provide generous resources to our state and federal regulars so that they can step up the enforcement of companies that deceit and fraud consumers. our public agencies are on the front lines of fighting these practices, and they should impose sharp civil and criminal penalties for countries that violate the law. we would also urge state and federal policymakers to consider new consumer protections against unfair and deceptive practices, economic front has a high financial and personal costs for consumers, and it could undermine public confidence in

the market place and a renewed economy. we hope our notion will lift up our financially distressed families and not push them down with deceptive practices and drive them further into debt. thank you very much and i look forward to answering any questions. >> thank you. next, so greenberg was the director of the national consumers league expect they could, senator pryor. i am really honored to be here this morning. first of all, thank you for holding this hearing. it is a really important topic, and you and your excellent staff have given all of us here in opportunity to make some recommendations and describe what we see out there. and it is not pretty. one thing i've learned in his job, and i've only been at the job a couple of years. i was a colleague of chuck bell here at consumers union before coming to the national consumers league, is that those who perpetrate fraud have absolutely no qualms of stealing from the most desperate or destitute consumer. the consumers who fall into these fraudulent trends are not stupid people. people tell me that all the

time, how can you be so stupid. well, i tell you, the people who they are very, very good at what they do. and they say all the right things to people and they are very schooled at it. so i think the public education outreach is such an important piece of what we are talking about here today. because once people hear the kind of things that we are talking about, i think it will think twice. but desperate times and tough economies really make consumers much more vulnerable. we have certainly found that at the national consumers league from center. the front center has been going since 1992. it was really formed, we put it together as a result of just explosion of internet fraud. and what we saw in the lost six months at the front center, the first six months in 2009, were 6800 reports of fraud directly from consumers. we share all of those reports with 90 international federal, state and local law-enforcement

officials. we particularly, we are very interested in bringing together both law enforcement, consumer organizations, labor groups, corporations nonprofits and government. we have something called an alliance against fraud and we will make a recommendation that we all need to be talking together on a regular basis and more frequent. today, we are pleased to be able to share you with you the result of our six-month review of complaints received by the frauds in which covers the period as i said, january to june 2009. a special now, work-at-home scams moved into our top 10 categories of most prevalent fraud. they didn't make the top 10 list last year. also, most of the frauds that were reported to our frauds and were fake checkpoint. more than half involve either fraudulent history shopping opportunities or false sweepstakes winnings with average losses of $3000 per victim. we believe that both types of fraud are closely linked with

the current economic circumstances, and moreover in the last six month our statistics show the overall frequency of a fake check complaint has increased 4%. the examples of consumers who have been scanned, we heard one very compelling woman speak about her example. what we talked rizzoli to a woman named roxanne. her experience as a luster to. after receiving an advertisement for mystery shopper job, she received a cash his check them out at $4600 in the mail. she probably deposited the check and three days after bank to verify that it was good. and they did so. she began conducting her mystery shopping work that was assigned to her. now, after purchasing several hundred dollars worth of items, roxanne was instructed to wire the remainder of the funds left from the cashier's check for clients in canada. she learned several days later that the original cashiers check had been returned to the bank as counterfeit. unable to contact a representative, she was left on the bank more than $4000 to that

is a classic fake check scam, and those have simply exploded over the last couple of years. her case illustrates that the worsening economy has caused increasing, increased into their work from home scams. and she serling is not alone. we conducted a survey in february of this year and found that 31% of respondents were more likely to consider starting a home-based business due to the worsening economic climate. that same survey found that 33% of response were unable to detect a pyramid scheme when it was described to the. adding insult to injury, is what is going on out there in the rest of the country because so many other consumer offices around the country have been either slash, their budget have been slashed or they have been closed down entirely. from florida to wisconsin to nevada to california, these offices are going without

directors, and these offices are really the boots on the ground protection that consumers have. now, we recommend, we are making five recommendations in our testimony. the first is in support of those great work the ftc is doing now. we want to point out the ftc staff is only 63% of the size it was in 1979. and what to ask you, as nevers of congress, to be the ftc and other federal agencies the resources they need to do the job that so badly needs being done with the kind of outreach that we saw here this morning. would also like consumers to have access to the ftc's consumer sentinel database so they can quickly search it for complaints related to suspicious e-mails, telemarketing calls, and fraudulent businesses. currently only law-enforcement has access and we think it is for privacy reasons but we would like to get that worked out so the public can get access to the that information. third, we would like to see low income and minority consumers really the focus of our, of more

efforts to protect them since they tend to be the more vulnerable especially in this economy. and we make some suggestions about reaching out to those who have applied for an employment benefit. there's also work that can be done for those who are accessing different programs that the ftc has for people who need assistance in both internet and landline. so we with financial support from connors, would also like to ask that the ftc create a grant program for organizations from state and local government, nonprofits, to help fund innovative consumer fraud projects. and lastly, we would like to see, as i noted before, more court nation with all the federal agencies that do the kind of work that all of us here at the table do. we think there should be a more regular coming together of all of us, perhaps a national conference to talk about anti-fraud strategies. so that you, mr. chairman, forgetting the national consumers league this opportunity to talk to you

today. we commend you for your you focusing on the rampant consumer fraud and we thank you also for your very proconsumer record. >> our next witness will be tim muris, former ftc chair, and now professor at george mason university school of law. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i have held for positions at the ftc. i was chairman from 2001 through 2004. and i'm the only person ever to direct both of the agencies enforcement bureaus, fortunately not at the same time. i strongly believe in the ftc as a consumer protection agency. i am especially proud of our consumer protection of competence while i was chairman. we did great work in a fraud program, and in protecting the privacy of americans, including creating a national do not call registry. preventing fraud is crucial to the commission's mission. fraud is essentially theft.

fraud distort market forces and limits the ability of consumers to make informed choices. fraud takes many forms and imposes enormous costs of fraud will largely go unchecked without the leadership of the nation's consumer protection agency. we created the ftc modern anti-fraud program in 1981 when i directed the bureau of consumer protection. we used section 13 b. to halt fraudulent schemes and to obtain consumer redress and other potent equitable remedies. once launched, the fraud program grew in importance and success. each succeeding ftc chairman has expanded its scope and approved its operation. while i was chairman, we greatly increased cooperation with criminal authorities, helping put bad actors in jail. further, we expanded the ftc's consumer protection efforts to spanish media. when i arrived, the ftc directed very little attention to marketing that appeared in any

language other than english. we corrected the problem and that effort continues. i want to personally thank senator nelson, who has stepped into florida delegation helped us a lot with that effort. the fraud program is at the heart of what i believe is the ftc's proper role. in america, we use markets to organize our economy. consumers derive vast economic benefits over the long term from these markets. consumer protection policy in turn can have profound effects, both for good and ill, on these markets. the ftc and other public authorities operate against a backdrop of important consumer protection institutions, most notably the market in private. in our economy, consumers can beat to offer the most appealing mix of price and quality. but when competition alone cannot punish or to tour the hud deter, such as adult life to

your customers, and keep your contractual promises. notwithstanding the strengths of the common law, sometimes, as one court enforcement is not feasible, private law just does not work. when market forces are inefficient and the common private law is ineffective, a public agencies such as the federal trade commission can help preserve competition and protect consumers. does, the ftc has a crucial role as an umpire in our economy. but it is not and should not be a star player. let me make a closely related point. as this committee considers the commission's tools to attack fraud, there are proposals to expand the ftc's rulemaking authority. although many do not think of them as such, the common law principles i just discussed are rules. providing a crucial part of the institutional framework that helps our market economy function to protect consumers.

in most circumstances, these, love rules provide both clear guidance to the business community and an adequate basis for ftc enforcement. although common-law rules do not provide for civil penalties, there is no need for such penalties to combat fraud. the ftc already has the authority to get the money through section 13 b., as i just discussed, and the limit is the amount of money available, not any lack of authority. rules seeking to address fraudulent practices often are very difficult to write. by their nature, rules must apply to legitimate actors. remedies and approaches that are appropriate for bad actors can be extremely burdensome when applied to legitimate businesses. and there is simply no straightforward way to write a rule against fraud. rulemaking should not be a substantial component of ftc consumer protection. the agency went down this road

once before with disastrous consequences. in the 1970s, the commission embarked on a vast enterprise to transform the american economy. in 15 months, the commission proposed 15 rules. usually without a clear theory of why there was a law violation, and at best a shaky empirical foundation. as it did before, the ftc will fail if it seeks to become the second most powerful legislature didn't watch in 10. the procedures currently required for rules force the commission to be clear about its theories and focus its evidence on the key questions. the ability of rulemaking participants to designate disputed factual issues and cross-examine witnesses on those issues is very useful in testing the commission's very. robert refocused, so-called magnuson-moss procedures are workable. they help the commission create clear rules aimed at bad actors without harming legitimate

businesses and consumers. i would like to discuss briefly a final issue. from personal expense, those with whom we work in attorneys general offices across america are diligent and professional. nevertheless, recent problems have arisen in a few states involving the outsourcing of enforcement. some want to grant the state greater authority. if you in congress choose to withstand such authority, you should add safeguards so that the authority is exercised in the uniform, transparent and impartial manner. thank you very much, mr. chairman. i would be glad, and members of the committee, i would be glad to answer any questions. >> thank you. again, i want to thank the panel for all of their testimony today and your hard work, and just the fact that you are here right now. mr. vladeck, let me start with you, and let me just ask about operations shortchange your i think you country in -- told the

subcommittee here what prompted you all to do operation shortchange. i know it is a bill fairly new, but your sense of how it is working so far. >> let me start by explaining the genesis of these kinds of sweeps. we want to target our enforcement efforts, particularly these kind of economic downturn related enforcement cases to those who are the most vulnerable. in operation shortchange, focused on those kinds of frauds that tend to attack the most vulnerable among us. the poor, the elderly, those deeply in debt. and so we focused on five areas. phony income generating opportunities, job placement scams, the one that entrapped beverly stewart, government grant scams, the stimulus package grants, the general cost are talked about in his opening

statement, credit related scams and a mortgage loan scams. this was a coordinated effort with our partners in the states and with the department of justice. and so our aim was to try to send a signal as loudly and clearly as a good that we intend to target these kind of scams going forward, and generate publicity because i think as mentioned, consumer education is a vital part of our enforcement effort. we need to get the word out to the american people that these scam artists are trying to pick their pocket. and so that was the genesis of the sweep and that is why it had the focus that it did. >> and again, i know it is very early in the process, but so far, as i understand it there have been several tros anchovy is going around the country.

and you give us just a quick status. i know it is still fairly new. >> and most of the cases in which a defendant has appeared, we have obtained preliminary relief. that is, we have gotten the tro preventing the scam from moving forward. in many other cases as well, we have an asset freeze. so we have grabbed whatever money there is. hopefully, at some point we will be able to use that money to return, to return the money that has been taken from consumers to the consumers and consumer redress getting money back to consumers who have been scammed is an integral part of our enforcement efforts. i don't have the statistics raycom but i think of the 15 cases that we brought, we have preliminary relief in virtually all of them. >> i know that when you take on endeavor like this you have to coordinate with doj, and they have an important piece of this as well as the state. they have an important piece of a. how is, from your expense, how

is that coordination going between various federal and state agencies? >> i would say that it is going well, but we need to do better. our job is sort of a biblical one. we need to take the resources we have and multiply. and the way to do that is through strategic partnerships, both within the federal establishment, strengthening our ties to the department of justice, with other agencies that have an enforcement role the postal service, the food and drug administration on some of these health scans, with hhs, their office. so we need to strengthen those partnerships. we need to strengthen our partnerships with these state attorneys general. we are delighted were able to work with missouri's ag's office in our operation shortchange, a suite that will be announced tomorrow with a very close ties with the california ag's office. and let county offices within california, other states. and we need to do a better job

of reaching out to legal services providers who are often on the frontlines of this this. they are part of the team here in terms of combating fraud. we do not have at the moment, i don't think, adequate ties to legal services providers. and we will be reaching out to them. and then there are local law enforcement agencies around the country. county attorney offices, and so forth, that are involved in consumer protection efforts. we need to reach them as well. we now distribute our materials, our publications to over 10000 organizations from date of attorney generals, to counties, two extension service programs. we need to do more. >> thank you. senator wicker, if you would like to make an opening statement that would be great. or if you want to dive into questions. >> thank you, mr. chairman, i think i will ask unanimous consent to enter my opening

statement in the record. >> without objection. >> okay. and i appreciate that. i know we are trying to carry on several conversations at one time that i appreciate the chairs indulgence, and i want to say i also appreciate punctuality. and i didn't observe that virtue today. and let me start with mr. vladeck, and then perhaps others will join in. clearly, there's been an effort at education, at consumer awareness programs. we certainly have had our share of scams in mississippi following hurricane katrina. when these crises are

unfortunate, circumstances arise, there are always people there, to steal from. fraud is dealing. chinese drywall is a problem that this congress is looking into. we need to increase consumers awareness to these scams. we need to jump on it as quickly as possible at the onset. , of a scam, so individuals, vulnerable individuals can get the message. i know the ftc and consumer groups are working to get messages out, but how do we review education programs to see which ones are working? i mean, something might look good to me on television, and it might make sense to someone who

looks at this issue every day. but how do we determine best practices for effectively educating consumers and how do we measure effective education? i will start with you, mr. black. >> that is a great question. one that we spend a lot of time thinking about. with respect to the internet, our internet education efforts, we can track pretty well people that use them, at least in terms of the shared numbers. but with respect to the other kinds of information that we disseminate, printed material and so forth, the only measure that we really have is the demand for it. that is, when i talk to other state attorneys general, for example, attorney general from north carolina was up for operation shortchange. the first thing he said to me was keep on sending us these educational materials. because in every week regional office in the state they distribute them.

so one way to do it is just to take a look and get the feedback from the constituents that we provide these materials do, and to get feedback from them. the feedback we get is quite good, but i am not sure, and i sort of wonder how a newspaper would go about trying to figure out not simply how many people it reached, but how many people actually read the story and actually took away the right message. >> i do believe they do that. >> and we are looking at ways of measuring that kind of impact. of course, unlike a newspaper, our materials are distributed to every state through every extension service through county attorney's offices, through police department, through universities. the distribution is quite wide, and i'm not sure that we have the capacity really to answer your question in a concrete way that i think that you wanted. >> you may want to be next on

his. i believe you hinted on an alliance of groups and industry to create uniform messages for consumers. so would you expand on that? and do you have some suggestions for this panel today on determining best practices, and making sure that our education efforts actually penetrate? >> well, one example, one recent example is an effort that was undertaken by the u.s. postal inspection service to deal with a fake check scam. this was in october of 2007, usps launched a $12 million, i believe was the figure, outreach campaign that involved very sophisticated advertising, series of advertisements. and it really penetrated the airways, and it turned out it was, i think they thought it was quite successful. colleagues of ours and people that we worked with said american express said they saw

the number of fake check problems and complaints go down significantly during the course of this campaign. and it was advertisements, it was like you take the guy and you have an actor play the sky, and they were doing role-playing. so he would go in, sit down, let's say on a bus and say we like to write a check for $50000. the persons is of course not. so that sort of thing. and they said why would you do it in a context? it was a very focused, and i think i am sure the ftc was involved in the fake check campaign as were a number of other federal agencies. so we are talking about money, sophisticated media outreach using web 2.0 efforts, new media efforts, you know, all the facebook, twitter tools that we have. it takes money and it takes really a focused effort, but i think, you know, the kind of work that david vladeck is doing in the ftc really makes a big difference.

. . >> bill has a very important finance committee hearing and to demonstrate his commitment. thank you for being here. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> the purpose of this hearing is to see if the united states government is protecting the consumer in these don -- down times. the ftc labors under a very cumbersome rule-making process. so that you attack a lot of

problems after the fact that the scam has occurred. so what are we doing to do to get these rules in place so that everybody knows if you cross that line immediately you jump on them. >> the standard ways federal agencies makes sure is under the act. except for a system that provides the public an opportunity to weigh in and provides for judicial review at end of the process. the ftc may not use that ordinary maim stream rule-making process to issue its rule. we have a very cumbersome rule making process. >> so are you saying that you can't adopt ruling when they cross that threshold when you can jump them. >> we cannot use that

rule-making process in a situation like this. >> so is the ftc impotent? >> no man is going to use that word. instead of using rule making we have to proceed case by case. >> obviously, it isn't working. what do you think? >> i could not degree more with the premise of him. these people are crooks. we already have rules against their behavior. and what we need is strong aggressive enhorsement. the ftc -- one year when i was chairman by got $900 million back for consumers. we work with criminal authorities that have put hundreds of people in jails. rules are distractions.

let me tell you what happened in the '70s, the ftc tried to compete and be a legislative body. that doesn't work. the ftc is five unelected officials. the rule-making procedures are procedures that were put in place by a previous congress because the ftc's jurisdiction is so broad. rather than wasting their time writing rules applying to businesses in the thought area the commission needs to do what it's doing which is going after the bad actors. i believe it can do more. but the final point is when the congress passes another committee, it told -- we asked the one rule. the congress gave us something like 15 or 16. the people who worked on those rules got taken away from working on cases. and i do believe the ftc needs adequate resources.

but you just can't go out and hire people. you need to train and work with them. i believe the rule-making effort is a distraction. >> well, mr. chairman if any other questions for me would be great. i think we've seen there's an inability of the system to react to a circumstances to try to hit it off in the first place. >> may i respond briefly? >> -- we are currently working on two rules pursuant to the procedures because of the mortgage rules. we do not have parallel authority for debt. we are doing debt workshops, working at debt issues. but it would have been helpful to be able to jump on some of these issues more quickly with

rule-making authority. we are right in one sense. rules take time, they can be distractions. you have to be strategic about the rules that you want to issue. everyone learns less in the '70s. i don't think this commission wants to be a junior legislature. we want to be able to protect consumers from the kind that we have seen. anterule-making authority that we currently have does not permit us to do that. that is the view of the commission. >> that sounds like we have a lot of work on this to do, mr. chairman. >> to protect consumers from scams. >> it does. and we will have the attorney general certainly have that power. i had that power as a regulator, as a state cabinet officer before i came to the senate. but it doesn't seem like we've got the ability for an immediate

response here. >> i think we'll have a robust discussion about that as we do the reauthorization over the next several months. i appreciate it. i know it's a difference of opinion. i appreciate everybody's input. thank you for being here. i know you need to race out to your health care. >> thank you very much. i want to first on a personal note say how terrific it is to see the attorney general from missouri here. chris and i have known each other a long time. and there are many chapters to our friendship that goes back to a time that i was the elected prosecutor in kansas city and he was the elected prosecutor in the county immediately south. and we worked together then. and it is -- he is a very talented and is going to be the terrific attorney general for the state of missouri. i couldn't be happier to see him here today. you know, mr. chairman, and as

we referenced, i've been trying to do a lot of work in the area of reverse mortgages. we've had a series of three hearings, one in washington, and two in missouri, it is very clear to me that these are complicated, expensive, financial instrument that while maybe appropriate in limited circumstances needs appropriate counseling and appropriate information they are being marketed now in ways that make my blood boil. and one of the things we discovered in one of the hearings is that there are people out there that are marketing this with the titles like seniors. they would talk to anyone. with people who played the lottery easy play. i'm curious, general in the investigations that you all have done and you can continue to do

in this wide area of scams against consumers and particularly the elderly, have you looked at ways that people are being targeted in terms of what information is being gathered and how are people being selected to receive the male solicitation, and receive the phony checks? >> a lot of the information has been the work that you conducted hearings around the state. i was listening to the comments about how do we raise public awareness. the political communities deal in conjunction with the media and does raise awareness. i'm aware of the targeting that is occurring as though they were marketing different type of magazines. my experience that nine out of ten of these reverse mortgages

and these sale leaseback arrangements which are nothing more than stealing the equity from senior citizens and renting their house as a elevateed price has been tremendous opportunity-taking advantaging by scammers. >> i know that you are looking into reverse mortgage andtizing and marketing. it's my understanding that there is a task force headed by the ftc that is looking into these advertising practices in the this way. and by the way i got a treat by someone said there was a mailing in illinois saying this was in fact a stimulus benefit, of the american recovery and reinvestment act. whether it's bailout or stimulus, those are the scam

phrases of the day. doesn't man what the economic climate is. how is that task force doing? what if any action are you all taking as it relates to the advertising? >> well, as you know we're in midst of the rule making that will address the entire life cycle including and especially the advertising. so we're hoping to address at least in part that question through rule making. the rule making is where commenced and we're hoping to have this done as quickly as we can. we're also looking for cases. we are very aware of these equity stripping scams is that general described, and we're lacking for enforcement cases. if you have that twitter forward it to me. >> in fact i just put out a twitter white i was sitting here asking people to follow me and give me other examples of scam advertising that they may encounter as it relates to these

folks promising government benefits that -- and by the way, "time magazine" had an article about reverse mortgages this week. which was great, expect they got one part wrong. and i want that point that out. if in fact these homes lose value which obviously none of us thought would happen, and it has happened, and of course that is one of the reasons we're in this incredible economic crisis. if these homes lose value and at the end of this process when the home is sold and it is not sufficient money, it said in the article that the lenders got less. i want to point out it is the taxpayers that get less. we are ensuring 90% plus of these loans that are being made. and we just up the limit of the amount that can be loaned. and these are increasing by huge

margins and this is in fact potentially the subprime scam and problem four or five ten years from now. and it won't come due for a while. we're not going to know that we will be caught in these loans until these homes are sold. i encourage all of you to do that particular area. these seniors deserve more protection than they are getting. thank you for being here today. i hope you come back often to show off what a great job you do. thank you. >> mr. chairman, in order to have a complete record here, i wonder if you would join me in asking unanimous consent that that article put in the record. >> absolutely. but it's the taxpayers that are on the hooks for these loans.

not the banks. >> welcome back. >> thank you very much. when i was out my staff told me that you haven't been asked a question yet. so i guess i have to fix that as well as you miss greenberg. in your testimony i was struck by what was good common sense for troubled consumers. and that is one of your common sense ideas, something that the university of minnesota has talked about. some have asked for a fee up front for counseling that is is problem signal that there maybe a possible predator. do you want to talk about that? what do you think about the idea of setting up a special agency to deal with financial documents and fraud? >> thank you very much. well, i would just observe that consumers are by and large very trusting. when people come forward often

with a lot of media muscle offering help and assistance in financial downturn where they have credit problems, people are inclined to trust those sources of information. i think it's a big job for us to teach consumers to be more skeptical, to not sign contracts or other agreements without seeking independent sources of information. one thing that we do have a lot of in this country is nonprofits, mortgage counseling, agencies, and centers. we would urge consumers to invail those sources of independent information and counseling and not just believe what sales people are telling them. and that also raises the issue of media responsibility. i do believe that an awful lot of money is being invested in both investigation and internet commercials. to try to promote many services

that charge advance fees. we have heard from a lot of enforcement issues on the ground in states like california that an advance fee is a sure indicator of a scam. so we're trying to get that message out to consumers. we also believe that we -- one of the reasons we have this profound crisis has been sort of this array of the federal level in terms of the many regulators we have, a system that does not provide comprehensive review of the financial products that are marketed to consumers. for that reason we have been supporting the obama's administration proposal which we think would have -- would need to have very comprehensive powers of the look across the entire marketplace. right now we're regulated by different regulators. >> okay. thank you. your reaction to that proposal?

>> the final spate product commission? we're join with the testimony that the other consumers grouped testified on. i guess they are testifying today in the senate. i just, you know, to course me i really think senator and the other members of the committee which was ill money. it wasn't taxpayer money. we really have to go toe to toe with the fraudstores. they are reaching out to get in track consumers. we have to use the same methods that they use whether it's newspapers, magazines, internet, twitter, facebook, they are very successful at this. >> we have to be as sophisticated as the crooks we are trying to get. >> people listen. the power is they don't hear

enough from us but they do hear from the fraudsters. >> you talked about scam artists by climbing to offer consumers with a price. cold you explain that about how we're going to be as sophisticated as they are developing new techniques? >> let me invite you to look at our internet web. which is my understand is state of the art and we're using that to try to track and figure out who the proponents of these scams are so we can find them and go after them. i actually know the stimulus money is like hundreds of scam artists. they are using as attorney

general noted all of the trappings of government to portray their services as related to the government. indeed, do as they do as internet scam that stole people who went to the hub web site and captured that traffic which we were able to get into conjunction to prevent. but most of the scams that we see are related to the grant money. we brought a series of cases where we have other investigations to try to go after these grant scams that promise people easy access to government grants to pay off their own debts or a range of other kinds of things. and we have been very successful so far in stopping some of the big ones. it's like playing racketball. we go after some of the big wins. as long as there's this talk of the government stimulus money i think we're going to be in the business of going after them.

>> okay. thank you very much. >> thank you. i'd like to start with ms. greenberg. we'll do five-minute sessions again. you had mentioned that you would like access to the semiuntil database. i'd like to get your concept of how that could work. >> this relates how we tried to get into the protect safety database and you spent so much and did so much great work. it's a tool for consumers to be able to do their own investigation. here's a company let me check them out and see if they appear on this database and whether they have been involved in fraudulent activity. we want to -- we think consumers could benefit from having access

to that information. and right now it's really a law enforcement tool. so i'd like to work with the folks at the ftc and see whether there's a possibly for doing that. >> now as i see that question i notice that mr. murray and v. scrambled for your notes. >> >> well, the commission does a great job in creating the partnership. there are issues that they can comment on in terms of how they work for the law enforcement. i wanted to say generally mr. chairman than the points about reverse mortgages illustrate actually the point that i'm making about rule making. if there are into do, i don't know the subject matter, but if there are indeed crooks, the commission needs to get out and deal with those crooks. and rule making is a

distraction. if there are reverse mortgage businesseses commission will have a great deal of difficulty drafting a rule to separate the two. a final comment, there are 14 million people in all your district mary kay, amway, ray von. it's a very difficult process. there are already rules. there's an elaborate law. let's get on with the business and not the distraction of rule writing. >> you have a comment about the database, and i do want to ask you about a reverse mortgage. >> let me start with the database. i share the concerns about public availability. but there are tremendous practical problems. we have personal identify information in many of the

complaints. and there are indeed entrenched privacy concerns about letting the database be searched by members of the general public. in order to take out the feels that might contain personal identifying information, we would have to ask and manually go through the database and block that information. until there's a way of serving the interest and giving the consumers access to information that might help them make informed choices. but at same time we depend on consumers complaints for our enforcement efforts. we use it to target scammers because obviously the more complaints it gives us an indication that has a widespread scam causing serious consumers injury. the last thing in the world

anyone wants for us to deter any individual from filing a complaint or from any law enforcement agency sharing complaint with us because of the privacy concerns. and so i'm always happy to sit down and talk about this issue. but i'm fearful until we can overcome the real serious legitimate privacy issues, general public access to our database is not possible. >> let me follow up on the reverse mortgage issue that he raised. could you give the subcommittee a sense or maybe a specific example of practices that you are seeing out there that you cannot currently deal with because you don't, because you need to make a rule making. >> let's take the issue. i think there's general agreement amongst the kids that these advance scams are dead

scams. they are the principal indicator of a scam. we have gone through mortgage rescue scams and credit repair scams. they charge an advance fee. i think that the best way to have tackled this problem and we're doing it now through rule making authorized by congress is to set a clear rule. we cannot, states cannot, local governments cannot, go after all of these scammers. if there is a clear rule that said no advance fees in their mortgage rescue situation. no some states my understand is many states are passes state laws that require that. we'd be that law. we'd be better off if congress has authorized to do that. but we've lost an awful lot of time. just an awful lot of people has been hurt because of the delays

in our ability to get this rule on the book. >> muris, do you want to follow up? >> if there are legitimate business here and he made a speech and said we will attack anyone with these advance fees, they would stop doing them. the other people are crooks. they are crooks to begin with. they know they are crooks. and you don't need a rule to deal with them. you can certainly in a speech or a case the ftc could for the legitimate businesses the ftc could accomplish the purpose that he wants. >> senator? >> thank you. i'll observe, mr. chairman, that this hearing is even more interesting than i expected it to be. i appreciate the panel. we have two items of agreement between the two. one that rule making is a

distraction. mr. valadic would believe it's a distraction that's worth it in some instants. the second agreement that i'd like to ask both of you about is to tell us exactly what the experience of the 1970s teaches us and how in the ftc failed? that's so i guess since you brought it up, i'll let you go first. >> well, i was there. i was one of the -- the first job i had out of law school was a staffer in the federal trade commission. and the commission took upon itself and frankly it was pushed early in the 70s by congress to transform entire businesses. and as i said it issued a rule a month for 15 months. a big part of the problem was

obviously that the rules were not well thought out. congress reacted and required the ftc because it has such enormously broad jurisdiction and expert agency -- congress said you have to have tougher procedures. what you need to do is allow is the designate issues of disputed issue of fact. >> tougher rule making procedure. and those procedures work if you use them appropriately. i'm not opposed to rules. my 15 minutes of fame was a do-not-call act. i believe we would have used these procedures and accomplished it. my problem is if you go ahead with these reauthorization and it passes the congress, i predict, and i suspect that you all may try to stop come of this, but i predict that it will

be like the fact that some of them will come with a request for the commission to do a dozen rules. and that would be an enormous distraction and dissurface to american consumers. >> why did congress react? >> well, congress realitied because for a various of reasons. because the ftc was doing so much. and because the ftc's jurisdiction was so broad. if you take the ftc and other agencies, the ftc is an expert on consumers protection and how to go after fraud. in a specific area like the mortgage area, the commission has exactly a handful of cases dealing with, for example, mortgage servicing. yet they are going to write a services rule. instead the way the rule -- the law should develop i believe is

for the commission to bring cases and follow the common law process of eavelation. because at the beginning particularly in an area that you don't understand it's very hard to get a rule and to do the rule right. >> what do you have to tell us about the failure of the 1970s approach. >> well, unfortunately it was not really present in the early days of the ftc. i think tim is accessly portraying the lesson which is the agency overreached and was punished. i think congress' punishment did not submit the defense. we've been saddled with a rule-making process unlike that used by every other agency that requires a proceeding to finalize a rule and make no miss take it would take years to make

a rule under those conditions. which is why the agency by and large shies away from rules like that. particularly in areas like the one we are seeing now when there is a fast developing crisis that jeopardizes consumers. the problem here is the economic downturn and given newel to scammer who pray. and while we condone case by case which is what we're doing. we're not holding back in terms of the cases that we bring in that area. but it's the difference between able to do something wholesale or resale. we're retail. we're doing it case by case by case. we've made errors. but the more efficient the quicker way to get to more consumers is to place a rule in place which has the effect of law and the simple violation of

that gives rise to a sense. it makes our enforcement much easier. we can do higher volumes cases and we can do better jobs protecting american consumers. >> mr. muris, did you have any difficulty bringing action against scammers? were you limited in my your ability to protection consumers? >> absolutely not. these scammers are already violating rules. but these common sense presence pals in lying and fraud are rules. and an additional rule i don't think would deter the scammers. you don't need civil penalties. the commission can freeze the assets. that gets all the money that is there to get. i don't think valadic would spent his time writing rules against them.

but the premise he just made was the recommendation of 1970s. we need to write rules and then enforce the rules. the rules the ftc should be few and far between the procedures that they have are adequate. but in special cases perhaps congress in its wisdom should say go ahead and use these apa procedures. the commission can already go to congress to get that done in the rare case that it's the commission believes it should do a rule. >> well, i have one final line of questioning. and that goes to mr. muris's point with regard to private attorneys, attorney generals

enforcing state laws. we know some of these attorneys general turn around and have private attorneys to litigate claims. mr. muris, clearly you are fearful that further expansion of this authority presented problems. how is the practice by the state attorney general to retain private attorneys affected the implementation of federal law? and what needs to be done to ensure that enforcement in this regard is a consistent affair. and then as attorney general, i'd like for you to weigh in on responding to mr. muris's point. >> let's declare what we are discuss of. i'm not discussing the staff and attorney general.

i could talk about the cooperation and trust. we're talking about a problem that has arisen in a few states with the outsources of litigation responsibility particularly couples with contingency contracts. i think there's a very dangerous situation. and if congress, if you indeed increase the authority of state attorneys general to enforce several laws you could put in place guidelines for transparency in dealing. that's what i'm suggesting. >> i've agreed with everything professor has said today with the acception of this point. there are -- the reality is that general in new york is a different type of attorney general because he has so much more power than the rest of us have out in the states.

i have 20 -- i have 17 lawyers in my consumers division. he is able in new york to take on the kinds of cases that you probably think that every attorney general in the country can take on just by flipping on a switch in the office. in many of these cases the scope of the litigation is so large that so ask two or three $42,000 a year attorney to take on a auction rate security case against merrill lynch or other investment bank is nearly impossible. whether there are a various of types of consumers cases that are sort of outside the scope of what we've been discussing here today which are smaller cases. but the auction around the country are just as much a consumers case are one off reverse mortgage cases that

affect smaller consumers. having a position of strength where you can release power into the litigation marketplace and accomplish larger consumers ends i think is something that the local political process should be allowed to work itself through. and it would be ill adviced for congress to constrain. even in regard to transparency and this specific issue of large contingency fees to campaign contributors, you would rather the congress be hands off there and allow each state to make though decisions. >> speaking from my own state, i believe the process should always be utilized. but the local political process does tend to work its way through these issues.

and politicians who give contracts to political friends, without an rfp will have to answer when it comes time for election. >> and finally the chair have been indulgent. mr. greenberg mentioned that the ftc staff has been reduced in real numbers. mr. muris did you preside over that? are you saying that we don't necessarily need to fund the staff back up to the 100% for all that we had years ago without adequate training? >> well, here's the problem of the '70s. congress gave the commission so many resources so fast that the super visors could not adequately control and you

created individual systems of people who were on their own. i supported an increase in resources when i was chairman, we increased from 1,000 to something 1100. you got to recognize that in normal times the commission will lose something like 100 with that 2100, will lose around 100 a year. and that means you have it hire a lot of people just to stay still. i'm not opposed to adequate resources or measured increases but i think to repeat would be a mistake. something that needs to happen and something we did, we talk a lot about consumers. we completely rebuild consumers and spent a lot of money to do that. it's been, you know, a few years since that happened. and, you know, technology changes. i don't know if we want that

money again. but at some stage it will need to be rebuilt to keep up with the most modern enforcement techniques. it's not just support. i'm an ftc guy. i believe strongly in the mission and the way the ftc is now. i certainly believe that is needs adequate resources. >> thank you. >> i'm just curious. do i understand. are you complaining about state attorney's general looking to enforce federal law and worried about contingency and contract lawyers? >> yes, that is my point. there should be guidelines and there are federal rules in terms of -- the federal government occasionally outsources. i think those kinds of rule only

in the dire situation should use contingencies. we certainly aught to have transparency pay for play. the money that's the sort of thing that shouldn't happen. my relationship and the relationship with the ftc has been spectacular. >> well, i am very reluctant and i always find it ironic when folks start talking about the situation with the federal government should interfere with states. the notion that an elected attorney general needs of federal government to tell him how to conduct the business of his office in a way that is going to provide transparency and accountability to the people he or she serves is having the hand of the government. i think that those attorney generals who engage in inappreciate pay to play will hear the rat of the voters at

the ballot box. francsly, i don't know the federal government to interfere. i don't think that's our place. >> that's why the premise of your question is what i'm discussing. when they have the authority to enforce several regulations is when i would apply the kind of rules that apply to federal regulators. >> is this a situational? when we say washington knows best is when we don't. i think this is where washington doesn't know best. thank you. >> thank you. and i just have a couple of follow ups in the spirit of closing the loop on a couple of points. with you you've heard mr. muris say a couple of times that we basically, the current law is sufficient with common law case by case and that should be sufficient. know as you still are saying that you need the ability for

rule making and to change the procedures that you live under. could you just respond to what mr. muris says and given what he says, tell us why you think you're idea is better for the american consumers. >> let me be intensity practical. with our rule in place for each case we have to prove the common law elements of fraud. the ftc act we have to show fraud. if there's a rule in place, we have to show a variation of the rule. anyone who's ever litigated the case, i spent 33 years, they want to litigate the second not the first. the proofs are quicker, the laws are more orderly, compensation of justice allows us to go after

the scale we quickly, efficiently, and to bring more cases. if we have to go case by case and prove fraud, we will do it and we are doing it. there are a long list of cases, excuse me, of mortgage forclosure rescue scams and so forth. but the nature of the litigation is very different. and having a rule in place and a rule that we are likely bring under the mortgage does not reflect the rules and fraud as mr. mur circumstances s claims, they em billish the rules of fraud. they bring the rules that we believe aught to apply. under this issue i think there's widespread agreement that the scam artists by and large do throughout upfront seats. we can sit where the doctor or

we may or may not, we would adopt a rule and say that any upfront seat is a violation of our rule. it simplifies the litigation, frees us to do more of the cases more quickly and better protect. >> yeah, he's wrong on two accounts. first of all ftc standards which the fraud cases are, are strike liability. second to get civil penalties under a rule, you have to proof to enter in any event. because that's what congress should require. the problem actually is worse than i thought. if he wants the ftc to distraction itself and write rules against fraud that would be a much bigger mistake than i thought the ftc had proposed for rule making. again, it's strike liability already. >> with all respect, we have to prove fraud in order to get

strict liability. we don't have to prove violation of rule. secondedly, the rule that we are looking at for mortgages, we would adopt a rule against advance fees. that is not a rule -- that is a rule that would permit us to litigate these cases more quickly. and third we are not talking about civil penalties. that's an different issue. i don't know why he wants to combine the two. >> i wrote the conception standard, it is strict liability. second if you have a rule, civil penalties is what you get under the rule. and civil penalties requires the internal. . >> sounds like we have a disagreement. we're not going to solve it today. my last question is really more in the form of request. i think everybody has mentioned the importance of outreach and educating the public.

i would hope that you all would give us your thoughts as we go forward about how to best do that and how to be most effective and get the best bang for the buck. also i think we have to think about the unpopular in some irks, we have to think about the question net come won't of fraud today. there are a lot of internet company that is are very legitimate name-brand companies that are permitting some of these schemes to either pay for advertising on their sites or at least show up on their sites one way or another. so there may be some internet component to this. again we're not -- none of us are experts in that. i do think it's something we need to consider as we move forward. i want to thank everybody for being here today. this has been a very, very informative discussion. i know we had senators that were

coming along. thank you very much. with that we'll leave the record hope for two weeks. allow members to do questions and follow ups. we'll adjourn, thank you. >> thank you. >> have fun.

>> tonight three coauthors discuss their books on the economic policies. then the author of telling histories talk about their career path as black women historians. tolled with the new book "guilty" liberal victims and their assault on american. it's here on cspan two. with lawmakers in recess, they are meeting to discuss health care. kevin brady held a town hall meeting monday. you can see it tonight on our companion network, cspan. >> reaction to the debate includes television ads. the group democracy for american is airing an ad in nebraska focused on senator nelson.

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>> now the presidential medal of freedom ceremony. and former supreme justice sandra day o'connor. this is a little more than a half an hour. >> ladies and gentlemen, the president of the united states and first lady, michelle obama. [applause] >> thank you. please be seated.

there are many honors and privileges bestowed on the occupant of this house. but few mean as much to me as the chance to award america's highest civilian medal to the recipients that are here today. this is a chance for me and for the united states of america to say thank you to some of the finest citizens of this country and of all countries. the men and women we honor today have led very different lives. and pursued very different careers. the pioneers in science and medicine. there are gifted artists and athletes. they have made the mark in the court world, in the community. and what unites them in a brief that most -- forgive me to those of you who are not americans,

what we consider to be most american of briefs. and our lives are what we make them. no barriers of race, gender, or physical affirmty can restrain the human spirit. the truest test of a person's life is what we do for one another. the recipients of the medal of freedom did not set out to win this or any other award. they did not set out in the pursuit of glory or fame or riches. rather they set out guided by passion, committed to hard work, aided by persistence, often with few advantages but the gifts, grace, and good name god game them. let them stand as a example here in the united states and around the world of what we can achieve in our lives. this is an example of the difference we can make in the lives of others.

but each of their stories stand as an example of a life well lived. one of the last things sue see coleman did before he passed away was asked her sister, nancy to make her a promise. she promised he would prevent other families hurting from the way breast cancer that they did. it has become a global race. it has easied the pain and saved the lives. in the months, nancy lie awake and wondered if one person can make a difference. nancy's life is the answer. while an intern at miami's jackson memorial came across a patient in a coma would a known name or address. the homeless man found by

firefighters suffering from tuberculosis. in the days to come, they searched for includes about the patients life. deciding that miami's homeless deserved better, he founded a clinic that now offers care to over 4,000 poor and homeless patients. a life that might be distilled into a question that he asks all of us:if we don't fight injustice, who will? president hawkins in a man in a staid owe. when he lost his balance and tumbled gown a flight of staired . diagnosed with a rare disease. he chose to live with a new purpose. he has become one of the world's

leading scientists. his work, which i will not attempt to explain, has advanced the understanding of the universe. his popular books, that's the cause of science itself. from his wheelchair he's led us on a journey. and so doing he has stirred our imagination and shown us the power of the human spirit here on earth. until he was too smart to play college football, he came a quarterback. he led the buffalo bills to two championships. football he once said gave him a good sense of perspective about politicians, he'd already been booed, cheered, cut, sold, and traded. makes me feel better. o conservative thinking, a republican leader, and a defender of civil rights.

she put her country over party, never forgetting what he learned, that it takes each of us doing our part and all of us working together to achieve a common goal. it's a life from which we can all draw lessons, democrat or republican alike. after purchasing an $8 racquet, $11 rear billy jean wanted to be the best tennis player in the world. she has 101 double titles and 67 single titles, pretty good. we honor what she calls all of the sports stuff. what she did to broaden the reach of the game and how women view themselves and to give everyone regardless of gender or swale orientation, including my

daughters, a chance to compete on the court and in life. as she said, we should never underestimate the human spirit, nor should we underestimate in her spirit. born and raised in alabama, preaching in his way, robert lowry is a giant in the civil rights leader. it was just king lowry is a few others who laid the ground work for the movement that was to follow. the founder of the southern christian leadership conference, he was later asked to serve as president. he served for one year, 20 times. some people would call him crazy. one of the things dr. lowry once

said, there's good crazy and baddization write. and times you need good crazy to make the world a better place. born of the generation past, the battle of the little big horn. the grandson of the scout for general u.s.er himself. he was the first member of the tribe to attend college and earn a masters. before completing his ph.d., he completed the four battlefield deeds that made him the last war chief. historian, educator, and a good man. [speaking in a foreign language] his life reflections not only

the warrior spirit of the people, but america's highest ideas. his name was harvey milk. and he was here to recruit us. all of us, to join a movement and change a nation. for much of his early life he had silenced himself. in the prime of his life he was silenced by the exact of another. in brief time in which he spoke and ran and lead, the voice stirred the aspirations of millions of people. he would become one of the first openly gay americans elected to office. and his message of hope, hope unashamed, home unray trade could not be silenced. :

it is then said that sidney poor dea does not make movies. we yoonicks milestones. milestones of artistic excellence, milestones of america's progress. on-screen and behind the camera,

in films such as the defiant ones, guess who's coming to dinner, uptown saturday night, lilies of the field for which he became the first african-american to win an academy award for best acting. he not only entertained but in lincoln's shifting attitudes, broadening hearts, revealing the power of the silver screen to bring us closer together. the child of a bohemian tomato farmer, he once called his driving purpose to make himself a better person. he did and he made us all a little bit better along the way. dolores-- knows the diversity that comes with a difficult name. i can relate. [laughter] known to the world by the name that has led up a broad may

marquees chita rivers career had an improbable start, the company nervous classmate on in addition she decided to audition herself and impressed the choreographer, jerome robbins who had made her famous as anita in west side story. sassy, electric, that rare performer who can sing, dance and act, chita rivers miguel separability to overcome when she recovered from a car accident that shattered her leg. sheahan duprey taking the stage and won a tony for kiss of the spider woman and like her unforgettable anita, chita rivers has shown that live in the can be bright in america. the only girl in a family of four brothers, mary robinson learned early on what it takes to make all sure voices are heard. as a crusader for women that those without a voice in our land, mary robinson was the first woman elected president before-- when she traveled abroad as president to replace the lights in her window that

would draw people of irish descent to pass by. today is an advocate for the hungry and the hunted, the forgotten and the ignored, mary robinson does not only shown a light on human suffering but eliminated a better future for our role. after graduating from the university of chicago school of medicine in 1948, janet willging gut married and gave birth to four sons, making medicine a hobby and making family her priority. it was not until she was almost 40 that she took up serious medical research and not until almost a decade later that she discovered hunched over her dining room table examining small photos of chromosomes that leukemia cells are notable for changes in their genetics, a discovery that showed cancer is genetic and transform how we fight the disease. all of us have been touched in some way by cancer, including my family, so we can all be

thankful that what began as a hobby became a life's work for janet. the glance in the fight andel built and the boys are familiar to us all, but the signature quality of archbishop desmond tutu says nelson mandela is a readiness to take unpopular stands without fear. perhaps that explains what led the arch, as he is known, to preach amid teargas and police dogs rally in people against apartheid and later when a free south africa needed a heart big enough to its sands, archbishop desmond tutu was called to serve once more as chairman of the truth and reconciliation commission. carribean of the downtrodden, the voice of the oppressed, cancer of our conscience desmond tutu possesses that sense of generosity, that spirit of unity, that essence of humanity that south africans know simply

as. 35 years ago a young economics professor at university in bangladesh was struck by the disconnect between the theories he was teaching in class and the reality of the famine outside so determined to help, muhammad yunus left the classroom for a village and discovered $27 with freed dozens of artists from death. offering himself as the guarantor he withdrew a loan, paid off their debts and founded grameen bank, a bank that is disbursed over $8 billion with microloans. muhammad yunus was just trying to help the village but he somehow managed to change the world. there is a story ted kennedy sometimes tells. it is about a boy who sees an old man tossing starfish stranded by receding tide back into the sea.

there are so many as the boy, what difference can your efforts possibly make? the old man studies the starfish in his hand and tosses it to save the saying, it makes a difference to that one. for nearly half a century, ted kennedy has been walking that beach, making a difference for that soldier fighting for freedom, beckrich e.g. looking for a way home, the senior searching for dignity, that workers striving for opportunity, that student aspiring to college, the family reaching for the american dream. the life of senator edward kennedy has made a difference for us all. these are the 2,009 recipients of the medal of freedom. at a moment when cynicism and out to waffen prevail ago when our obligations to one another are too often forgotten, when the road ahead can seem too long for hard to tread, these

extraordinary men and women, these agents of change, remind us that excellence is not beyond our abilities, that hope lies around the corner and that justice can still be one in the forgotten corners of this world. they remind us that we each have it within our powers to fulfill dreams, to advance the dreams of others and to remake the world for our children and it is now my distinct an extraordinary honor two of each of them to come forward to receive their award as the military aid to read their citation. [applause]

>> nancy goodman brinker has transformed the nation's approach to breast cancer. when her sister was diagnosed in 1977, most breast cancer victims the relatively little about the disease and suffered from popular stigmas. nancy brinker promised to challenge these norms. she founded susan g. komen for the care and honor of her sister and today the organization supports research and community awareness programs across the united states and around the world. nancy goodman brinker's any passion and determination have been a blessing to all those whose lives have been touched by breast cancer. [applause] pedro jose greer, jr..

dr. pedro jose greer has devoted his career to improving medical services for the uninsured. a native of miami heat about his passion for helping others to medical school and founded the camilla's held concern in 1984 as a medical intern. today, they treat thousands of homeless patients a year, serving as a model for the poor and inspiring physicians everywhere to work with indigenous populations. dr. greer's contributions to the florida community and our nation as a whole stand as a shining example of the difference one person can make in the lives of many. [applause] stephen hawking.

for assistance in his pursuit of knowledge, stephen hawking has unlocked new pathways of discovery and inspired people around the world. he has dedicated his life to exploring the fundamental laws that govern the universe and he has contributed to some of the greatest scientific discoveries of our time. his work has stirred the imagination of experts and lay persons alike. living with a disability and possessing an uncommon ease of spirit, stephen hawking's attitude and achievements inspire hope, intellectual curiosity and respect for the tremendous power of science. [applause]

[applause] joanne camp, excepting on behalf of her husband, jack kemp. a statesman and a sports icon, jack kemp advocated for his beliefs with an unwavering integrity and intellectual honesty. on the football field the and the respect and admiration of his teammates for his judgment and leadership. as a public servant he placed the country before party and ideas before ideology. jack kemp subbridges for other subdivisions and his legacy serves as a signing example for all those who strive to challenge conventional wisdom, stay true to themselves them better our nation. [applause]

kara kennedy accepting on behalf of her father, edward m. kennedy. for more than four decades, senator edward m. kennedy has boldly fought for equal opportunity, fairness and justice for all americans. and his tireless quest for a more perfect union, senator kennedy has reformed our schools, strengthen our civil-rights, help seniors and working families and work to ensure that every american has access to quality and affordable health care. with volumes of lots bearing his name and countless lives touched by his extraordinary passion, senator kennedy has accumulated several lifetime works of achievement. the hanna bradley recognized his righteous citizen, devout public servant and giant among men.

[applause] billie jean king. [applause] through mir example and advocacy, billie jean king has advanced the struggle for greater gender equality around the world. in an age of male dominated sports, her pioneering cherney tooker from long beach, california to the lawns of all england club and the international tennis hall of fame. herbeck luttig at jimenez match only by your and wavering defense of equal rights. with billie jean king pushing as the road ahead will be smoother for women, the future will be brighter for lgbt americans and the nation's commitment to equality will be stronger for all.

[applause] reverend joseph e. lowery. [applause] reverend joseph e. lowery has marched to live with faith and purpose, carrying with him the legacy of the movement that touched america's conscience and changed its history. at the forefront of the major civil-rights events of our time, from the montgomery bus boycott to protest against apartheid, he has served as a tireless beacon for non-violence and social justice. as a pastor and civil-rights advocate he co-founded the southern christian leadership conference and champion the

cause of peace and freedom around the world. >> united states proudly honors this outstanding leader. [applause] joseph medicine crow. [applause] as a warrior and a living legend, history flows to dr. joseph medicine crow, born on the reservation and raised by traditional grandparents, he became the first member of his tried to earn a master's degree.

for his deluge service in world war ii, he was awarded the status of crow were achieved and is pronounced teddy said the first americans and contributions to cultural and historical preservation have been critical to our understanding of americans history. joseph medicine crow is a symbol of strength and survival and the united states honors him for his dedication to this country and to all native americans. [applause] [laughter] [applause]

stuart mill excepting on behalf of his uncle, harvey milk. [applause] harvey milk dedicated his life to shattering boundaries and challenging assumptions as one of the first openly elected officials in this country, he changed the landscape of opportunity for the nation's community. throughout his like he fought discrimination with a visionary courage and conviction. before his tragic death in 1978, he wisely noted hope will never be silent and called upon americans to stay true to the guiding principles of equality and justice for all. harvey milk's voice will ever echoed in the voice of those who carried his timeless message.

[applause] sandra day o'connor. [applause] sandra day o'connor has paved the way for millions of women to achieve their dreams, completing law school in just two years because she graduated third in a class at a time when women rarely enter the legal profession. with grace and humor, tenacity and intelligence, she rose to become the first women on the united states supreme court. her historic 25 turn tenure on the court was defined by her integrity and independence and she has earned the nation's lasting gratitude for invaluable contributions to history and a lot.

[applause] sidney portilla. [applause] ambassador and actor, he has left an indelible mark on american culture. writing from the tomato farms of the bahamas, his talent lead him to broadway, hollywood and global acclaim. in front of black and white audiences struggling to write the nation's moral compass, sidney poitier brought us the common tragedy of racism, the inspiring possibility of reconciliation and the simple joys of everyday life. ultimately, the man would merit

the character and both would advance the nation's dialogue on race and respect. [applause] [applause] chita rivers. [applause] from stage to screen, chita rivera has captured america's imagination with a magnetic presence and radey and voice. over a career that has spanned half a century she has received numerous accolades from her performances including two tony awards, six additional tony nominations and the kennedy

center honors and awards for gillis fairless in west side story and self-reliant as a right in kiss of the spider woman, she has broken barriers under broadway's light and inspired a generation of women to follow in their remarkable footsteps. at begin m honors chita rivera for lifetime achievement as one of america's great artist. [applause] mary robinson. [applause] for mary robinson, the fight to end discrimination and suffering is an urgent, moral imperative. she has been a trail blazing crusader for women's rights in ireland and a forceful advocate for equality and human rights around the world. whether courageously visiting

conflict stricken regions are working to inject concern for human rights into business and economic development, mary robinson continues this important work today, urging citizens and nations to make common cause for justice. [applause] janet davison rowley. [applause] dr. janet davison rowley was the first scientists identified a chromosomal translocations as the cause of leukemia and other cancers. considered among the most important medical breakthroughs of the past century. after enrolling at the university of chicago at age 15, she went on to challenge the conventional medical wisdom about the cause of cancer in the

1970's, which it plays little emphasis on chromosomal avner rouw maltese for gover work has proved enormously influential to researchers like to have used for discovery to identify genes that cause fatal cancers and to develop targeted therapies that have revolutionized cancer care. began m honors this distinguished scientist for advancing genetic research and the understanding of our most devastating diseases. [applause] archbishop emir 'tis desmond tutu. [applause] with the unflagging devotion to

justice, indomitable optimism and an unmistakable sense of humor, archbishop emeritus desmond tutu has stirred the world's conscience for decades. as a man of the cloth, he is drawn the respect and admiration of the diverse congregation. he helped lead south africa through turning point in modern history and with an unshakable humility and firm commitment to our common humanity, he helped heal wounds and laid the foundation for a new nation. desmond tutu continues to give voice to the voiceless and bring hope to those who thirst for freedom. [applause] muhammad yunus. [applause]

with his belief in the self-reliance of all people, professor muhammad yunus has altered the faith of finance and kant premiership. as an academic he struggled with pervading theories and their effects on the people of his native bangladesh. yearning for a new way of lifting people out of poverty he revolutionized banking to allow low-income borrowers access to credit. in the process, he has enabled citizens of the world's poorest countries to create profitable businesses, support their families and help build sustainable communities. in doing so, muhammad yunus has unleashed new avenues of creativity and inspired millions worldwide to imagine their own potential. [applause]

>> before we break up, why don't we all give an extraordinary round of applause to these remarkable men and women. [applause] [applause] thank you very much for joining us everyone. thank you very much. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

.. in six months i would have died. >> the government-run health care in canada. care is delayed or denied.

some patients wait a year for vital surgery's, delays that can be deadly. many drugs and treatments are not available because government says patients are not worth it. >> i am here today because i was able to travel to the u.s. where i received a world class treatment. government health care isn't the answer and it sure isn't free. >> washington wants to bring canadian through coastal healthcare to the u.s., but government should never become your family and your doctor. learn more at patientsunitednow.gov. >> it is your care, don't give up your lights. >> about peace prize winner muhammed yunis spoke shortly before a white house ceremony where he was awarded presidential medal of freedom. he talked about how mike for financing efforts can help fight poverty. this is about one hour. >> we will go ahead and get

started. i want to welcome each of you to the national press club for this morning's news maker. i am mark, the chair of the press club's committee and the washington correspondent for workforce management, a business magazine published by crain communications. we are pleased today to welcome professor muhammed yunis. he is known as the father of microfinance and he won the 2006 nobel peace prize for his efforts to alleviate global poverty through small low-interest collateral for loans directed primarily at women through the grameen bank which he founded in bangladesh in '93. today professor muhammed yunis is in town to pick up another prestigious prize. he will receive the presidential medal of freedom this afternoon at the white house. first though, he is going to

talk to loss about the growth of grameen's pumas organization, grameen america, which was established in 2008, january, 2008. the battle against poverty is not limited to the developing world and grameen america has lent more than $2.1 million in micro loans to more than 450 -- i'm sorry, more than 850 borrowers at 91 centers throughout the country. so, it is my honor and pleasure to welcome to the podium professor yunis. [applause] >> thank you very much. good morning. it is a very special day for me today. there is a big ceremony waiting in the afternoon so we are getting ready for that. and it is also special because my daughter is here, monica, and

her husband. this is their first official meeting attending as a married couple. [laughter] they just got married on the 14th of june so this is also very special for me. in a way i am a very lucky person to be on the list of the president for a presidential medal of freedom. elbe of 16, this is to occupy one slot, it needs a lot of a lot to make it happen. i am very happy and honored that the president has given me that spot. and also it's very special because he is today probably the most admired person globally. he has inspired the whole world. so to be on his list, i share the admiration that he has

created for himself. so that probably some of his admiration will double by being on this list and this is important because all the issues that have been raised in the past about poverty, about how it can overcome, how we can almost set a date then say it's over, finished. sometimes people think not achievable and i feel very confident and very strong that yes, it is achievable. i talked about putting poverty saying this is over this is it and we move on with our life, the real human life because poverty does not represent real human life. it is a sub human life almost like animal life and there is no reason this day and age we should be carrying on this past legacy of this poverty so this

is one issue that i get to be on the list makes it known to many people who don't probably no and that before that would like to know what i represent. and then on to talk about issues along the way as poverty is not created by poor people. poverty is created by the system we build our round us, so how to change that system the timing was right for this award because a whole world was going through the financial crisis. and inside everybody feels the system is not right but they don't know what would be the right one. and i kind of gave my view of what could be the right one. this is one occasion we should be paying a lot of attention how to redesign the system so that

we don't follow the same old way of making our life proceed. rather we create a different structure so that we don't fall in the same ditch over and over and make it worse every time. so this is the call i gave, this is the deepest of the crisis but the greatest opportunity. the opportunity part has to be emphasized. this is forgotten most of the time because we are so busy trying to fix things. it is not fixing to get to the same old thing as the redesigning, designing the system so that we go to the new beginning rather than going back to the same normalcy that we've used to so we shouldn't be going back to the same normalcy again. we create a new normalcy. that is the point i would like to make and on the financial side i talk about how to make the financial world's different,

making financial service available to every single human being on this planet and i keep talking about credit being taken as a human right because it plays such a fundamental role in human life that it shouldn't be ignored as left to to the business people to decide who should get. this is something we come as a free market we must address it as a human right to establish it for all and this crisis should lead us to the same basic conclusion that still having an exclusive financial institution for very specific people we should have the financial system so nobody is excluded from that system so this is the version we bring out and demonstrate to our work, grameen bank that we do in bangladesh, and that it is replicated all over the world. today probably not a single country would be available where

you don't have the microcredit program running and it's shown all over the world that is doable and it works and it does work in a sustainable way. it is not a charity. it can run any way people benefit at the same time it is cycles of money, it is not charity money we depend on some this is one issue fixing the financial system. other is a business world to be fixed. today's business world is devoted to making money because there is the only kind of business in the whole world. business of making money, profit maximization as the business. i'm saying that is a narrow interpretation of a human this being selfish. at the same time all of human beings every single human being is also selfless. it is built into the human bank but that part has been

completely ignored and that is where we went wrong so we built the world where we are all running to make money because that is what the theory says we should be doing. that is a very narrow way of building our own world because we have ignored one basic part of being selfless, being nibbled to touch other people's lives. and i'm using this selfless brought to build a new personal business using the part i am calling social business. a business to change the world. business impact human being's life without having any attention of getting any money for my self, nothing for me. contribute to the existing business whatever these policies we pursue. so we can create those businesses along the way and make the world a better place for all of us and microfinance could be one of them but health care could be another and also

environment could be another social business and many things, housing, nutrition and you name it, it could be done in a social business. today it becomes important because health care is a big issue. we are trying to address health care in bangladesh. we are creating social businesses in bangladesh we have already created hospitals and social business so that nobody has to be denied of the service but at the same time hospital by their own income not for making money for the owners of the hospital because the owners decided nothing should come to them. it should be available to the people because the aim of the hospitals to make sure nobody suffers from high problems so this is the case of a social business and we are building up many more health care programs in cooperation with other universities and companies like

emory university and university of pennsylvania, a university like johns hopkins, harvard university and also the mayo clinic, trying to build the pieces together and in the basis of the social business and we are creating in the village's small health management centers. where our focus is on keeping their healthy people healthy. that is our main focus so that the awareness becomes an important element of this business. and then helped to keep the people healthy and then detect at early stage any deviation from the health so early detection and early treatment and since we cannot keep the doctors in the villages because the doctors everywhere want to live in the metropolitan city which i do not fault them for that, but we have to find a way out to bring the service today

technology is available we can do that because the availability of internet and availability of a huge platform of mobile phones. everywhere in the world today mobile phone is a common thing and everybody carries in their pocket in whatever way they can carry mobile phones and mobile phone is also an internet facility so what we are trying to build, build diagnostics, tools so that at the village level the tools are used, diagnostic tools are used, make it very simple and village growth can be trained to use diagnostic tools and plug in, transmit all the images and data and information from the household to the specialist dr. from the patient wherever he or she lives most likely in the city and then communicate to the

mobile phones and give prescriptions. so this is something we are in the process of building again as a social business so this is another area, the health care area we want to build up and along the way that application it began in new york city, grameen and mentioned, as you mentioned. and today in new york city in jackson heights and expanded to manhattan we just crossed the 1,000 mark, as we have now over 1,000 borrowers in the program. the amazing thing, we follow the same grameen principles, the five getting together taking individual loans, being responsible individually and to the loans for income generation purposes and create employment, make a living for themselves and they are proud of their ability to handle that and the payment has remained over this year from january, 2008 up until now, near

100%. so this is an amazing thing that happens and we are invited to do it in omaha recently as we open a branch in omaha, and i hope to see the same kind of success repeated in omaha. so other cities are in fighting us from san francisco, los angeles, durham north carolina and so on. in boston and baltimore. so we are hoping that maybe we should be starting programs there also. so this is the kind of things that i try to focus with the intention we can overcome all these problems and on employment could -- as unemployment continues to increase, we could create alternative formats of creation of employment like self employment, and also create wage employment, to social businesses, there is opportunity and growth for creating social business just to create employment for people so that aspect has never been addressed

before so i am trying to bring that to the attention so i will stop here, just a few more words about the grameen bank. we have nearly 8 million borrowers in bangladesh and 97% of them are women. we went over $100 million a month and all this money comes from the deposits, collected by each branch of grameen bank, and the local money taken as a deposit is lent to the local poor women and then the branch makes a profit. grameen bank is a profit-making company owned by the borrowers themselves, and the dividend goes back to the borrower as a shareholder so it's a complete circle. the money given out, paid back with interest, the company, the bank's profit, profit is distributed back to the barber was as their dividend. so that idea can be replicated anywhere we are launching in a

big way in china and mongolia and szechuan at the interest of the chinese government they have invited us to start the program and we are very happy we could start the program this year. thank you very much. [applause] >> we will take questions i just ask you state your name and organization. we just like to know who has joined us. who has the first question? yes? >> [inaudible] what is your reaction about today your receiving from the u.s. government? >> as i said i am very lucky. it is a very exciting moment for me because this is a big recognition for the ideas that i have been promoting, trying to

let people pay attention to it. but this technician brings a lot of attention to it. it's very important for me personally to be recognized by such an important person in the world, the most admired person probably in the world and the person who has inspired a hold generation of young people of the world saw with his inspiration and great capacity to draw admiration and people's attention, to be on his list saying that some of this will drop on to my ideas of inspiring young people to make that happen in the world so we can start believing that yes we can create a world where not a single human being has to suffer the misery and indignity of being a poor person so that is very exciting and also very exciting for bangladesh being recognized out of many countries in the world

for someone from bangladesh to be recognized and this gives lots of happiness among the people of bangladesh that jess -- and feel very confident in their future that yes we can contribute to the world and make the goal in our life to make changes, to make a distinguished nation thank you. >> what is your message today, all over the world what is your message today? >> the message is yes, what we do in bangladesh is not just a local thing. it has global implications including implication in the united states, which gives bangladesh a lot of confidence in their life that they can --

we are not just a poor nation as we kind of get used to knowing that we are a poor nation and feel neglected and ignored but we are not neglected and ignored. we are a significant nation and have the ability not only to make impacted our life in the country but also impact globally and this is recognition of that kind of thing. i am not being recognized for things that everybody else do and have done better. in a way,, it is very contradictory kind of situation. i stand in contrast with everything that is done in the usa. the usa business solves everything and if you make money that's good for the nation and that's it and i am saying no, that isn't it. making money is not the goal. we are not money-making machines.

we are human beings. we have to solve problems and we can create another kind of social business, a big contradiction to the money-making business where a money-making business is everything for me nothing for others and the social business we are saying everything for others, nothing for me so it is a kind of contradiction and the general thinking process within the usa but at the same time i am being recognized by the president of the united states so that gives a big recognition to be in different at the same time being paid attention to. i am one who always says welfare system is the wrong system. there is welfare. it should be contemporary. welfare cannot be a permanent solution to people's lives. it should be temporary. the aim is to help people get out of welfare. why i am saying that i am being recognized by the president of

the united states saying things completely different so it does not go along with the united states and they like you and give you the price i am saying the opposite. i am singing a health care system can be done in a social way and that is not the health care system u.s. people probably have in mind so again, a different kind of system and a financial system, usa is the world capital of the banking world. here you are making money so you keep on making money in the process, the greed takes over and the crisis happens. i am saying no, we can build a new financial system that can work just like we do in jackson heights, getting people who are never able to open a bank account, forget about taking the loan, just put the money in the bank and no bank will accept that. so this is something we do and

at the same time it calls attention because people see some sense and what i do. thank you. >> [inaudible] in the current severe recession many of the biggest banks in the world have their own survival question including the likes of citibank. how is grameen bank getting by the recession or argue recession-prove? >> i would say we are rescission-prove. [laughter] for several reasons i will give you quickly the reasons i see. first of all, grameen bank, the banking that we do in bangladesh is close to the real economy. when we get a loan of $100, $200, there are some chickens

and goats and cows so it is a relationship between the money and the cao, tied to the economy. it isn't paper based economy where you create a fantasy world finance and that is where is treated the crisis so we don't belong to the fantasy world. we belong -- we are right on the ground. the bank is grounded solidly on the ground so this is one reason. second reason is we are not exposed to the centers of financial helps like new york and all those where you can transmit the crisis you created to all the people. since we are not connected to that we are locally based where i was explaining the local money in august bangladesh money, wherever a branch of rates that is the money from the branch, not from jobra or the big cities. your money should come from your neighborhood and that should go

to the poor people. we are very local. so transmission again some didn't work for us and we are happy that we did it that way, so that we we have kind of an isolated ourselves from the financial crisis and it works pretty good. even in jackson heights nobody is telling us we take weekly payments. no are worse this sorry i am a financial crisis can't pay you back. even in jackson heights, in queens they are also crisis-proved because this is ground it to the economy so they work, they are income, they pay you back so this is how it works. >> back in the back right there. >> i'm sorry, the leedy in the back row. >> [inaudible] do you foresee any constructive

role of grameen in countries like afghanistan after the election if there is any democracy, any stability? >> there are lots of microfinance programs and afghanistan. a nationwide microfinance organization. so microfinance has a role in all countries. we have done microfinance in kosovo when the guns were firing, a peace treaty was signed at that time. we sent our were stuff at the invitation of an italian organization. we went there and set up. at that time there was no government in the country, there was no currency. there was no bank. so, we started grameen program. no government, no rules, no financial system, no banks and

it worked and worked beautifully and is still working in kosovo so it's possible. the reason i say it is possible and can be done in a worse situation because people life goes on, the war goes on, life goes on so you need to support that life, whenever life there is to build the economy to be in the wartime it becomes more important because the system breaks down so you build the local economy by yourself, buy and sell among each other so it will be important to build up a program. >> now in the very back. >> freelance reporter. can you explain why you have targeted to women and it is that a key factor in your success? >> i would say it is a key factor. we started out focusing on women on the 50 >> 50/50 basis. and that came as a reaction to the existing financial institutions of the time in

bangladesh. i was very critical of that singing they are antiwomen organizations, banks because not even 1% of the borrowers happened to be women so i was making this big noise about and they were feeling very uncomfortable with what i was saying and trying to put the blame on the women, they don't come to us and i was showing how screwed up they are. they are always focusing on men. if a woman comes the one there and husband to come i say you never asked the wife to come along when the husband applies. i want to make sure i don't need that same mistake. i wanted to have half of the bar were swimming. it was tough because women didn't want to come in. they said we don't know anything about they are very frustrated that some of my colleagues suggested maybe we should move on with men. i said no, when a woman says i

cannot handle money, i do not know about money, give it to my husband i say this is not her voice this is the face of history that create her so we have to pull off the fear that has been generated and the sense of incompetence, the sense of the inability to do things for herself. once you peel back off, the real person will come up and that is the person we are waiting for and we waited pretty long. we waited for six years to make that happen 50/50. then we saw money to women brought so much benefit to the family. amazing difference between the same amount of money going to the families of women and to the family through the man. the impact of the family is we bigger whether it goes to the women. so we said why are we going to the man at the impact such a big difference. so we said let's focus on women. that is how we did that and lots

of things that happened in grameen bank, the positive things because of the decision that we made early on and when people learn from grameen to appliqued about other countries they don't go through that process. the immediately concentrate on when and. today microcredit, microfinance went from small loans to the poorest women. they don't talk about other options because of the impact. >> in the back row. >> my name is carried douglas and i am interested in knowing who inspires you personally to do what you do. >> welcome the basic inspiration comes just like any other program. but the impact that you make on people's life. when i am depressed or criticized, attacked and so on and wonder whether i am doing the right thing and i go and visit the villages and sit down with them and you get totally

recharged but you are on the right track no matter what the world says, it more than because one smile of a young woman or daughter in a family with what they have done what important role it played in their life, then you get retooled, recharged that you can do it. that is the most inspiration you can get putative and these days also inspiration comes when i go around -- many years have gone by. you see the younger generation coming up in those families. after all it is 33 years now down the road. so you see young girls and boys that grew up with their family, grameen bank and mothers work now going to schools, colleges, going to university and some of them already completed them. some of them are engineers and doctors say uzi side-by-side the mother was totally illiterate and the sun was an engineer and qc just like another village kid

to talk to him and said i am an engineer, i just graduated. suddenly you remember that poverty is not created by the person. her mother could have been an engineer, too, but she never had the opportunity to go to school. so her work created an opportunity for her son or daughter to go to school, to become a doctor or engineer. so there is no inherent deficiencies in the person. it is the environment we created, the system we created, with the difference we made among ourselves. so that is the system i am trying to address and highlight we need to change which creates a different kind of people because the system doesn't work for some people and they remained neglected and then we blame them for being illiterate, for being stupid, for not being able to handle their own life

and so on. it is not their fault. all ingredients of their insight. we never let them open up the gift and make the difference in her life and the life of the world and others. .. so, if the present government

appoints-- [inaudible] >> any assignment the government would like to give, it would be an honor to carry out that responsibility. i would be delighted, of whatever i can do and they keep on saying the same thing, doing the same thing. i will have a bigger platform to work through so it will be a good opportunity for me so there's no reason anyone should say no to it so i will say yes, and of course. i will do that as long as i can do the things that i always say they should be done, and i can do that. poverty in bangladesh-- zilaitis would be about 40%, 40% of the population is under poverty. poverty is declining very steadily and we are hoping to achieve the millenium development goal by 2015, so we are on that track also. that way bangladesh has been a

very well recorded country for achievement in poverty reduction. of course we can do much better, that is for sure. lots of things have to change to do better. one, financial challenges told us that because many of the things we do and bangladesh will be affected by the global crisis. like our export will be affected but still we hope that poverty is-- by 2015 and the continue to achieve that. when you say 8 million people out of 150 million people there is a little connection, 8 million borrowers maeneen 8 million families, so if you take 8 million families, five in the family we are talking about nearly 4 million people out of 150 million people. when you have 40% population under poverty, you are not too far away. grameen bank is only one actor in microcredit. there and many other players in microcredit.

together i think we come to about 80% of the poor families covered. our goal is to make sure we get to the 100% as soon as possible, probably three or four years. we should be able to reach that to every poor person or every four family because will lend money, one in the family which is basically the woman in the family that weilin to so each woman represents a family. one problem that we have in bangladesh because there's so many organizations, there are lots of overlaps in the same family, several organizations. so if you add all of the borrowers they will not represent all the family so if you take 55%, he still will have 80% of the far worse, 80% of the poor people within the system of microcredit, so this is the most

intensively-- we should be proud of that, that we have done something and it works, despite all the disaster, despite all of the floods, all the cyclones and everything, it works. that is the most important thing so there is lots of things to improve, there lots of things we can do better as we go along. that is what we should be concentrating on, more efficiency in building the second generation and the one probably you did not get this piece that i explained about the health care, how to bring health care to these families because these families are not reaching of care and health care is very important because most of the time you make money and he used this money to pay the traditional healers for overcoming whatever problem you have so you are wasting their money into the same time bringing suffering because whatever they give, the traditional healers whatever they give in exchange for money,

this is not a cure. this is getting your disease more worse than that was before so why can't we bring health care and state-of-the-art health care? that is what we are paying attention today so we can do that. we are trying to build-- because bangladesh has an extreme shortage of nurses. there are three doctors burners in bangladesh. where the world stands for nurses for doctors so it is strange that we don't have those nurses because we have plenty of girls. oh we have to do is have the colleges train the nurses so that they can fill this gap and make a living for themselves, make a decent, worth the livelihood for themselves and change their families and also globally there's a shortage of nurses. if you can give the nursing education for them, they will be available for the whole world so

our young girls with nursing degrees can work all over the world. that will bring a difference in their families and their villages and their own personal lives. a village girl who has never seen outside of curve village now works in a very different country in providing a very important service for their people. we should take pride that we can do that, so we are creating those nursing colleges and we hope that will bring lots of changes in our health care system and we want to use them at the vellis level. >> as the world recovers from the financial crisis, there is talk of reforming the worldwide financial system. if countries can get together and do that, then bankers from wall street and bankers from the city and london are going to be highly influential.

it seems to me that if i were one of them, on first glance, grameen would sound like a socialistic organization especially when you say we are not about making money. probably people on wall street and in london and the financial sectors would blanchett that. how do you overcome that attitude? because grameen i assume doesn't have anywhere near the leverage of goldman sachs or in reforming the world financial system. how do you fight that attitude? [inaudible] they did not get the medal. we will have a bigger voice, definitely. it cannot be ignored, so that voice is not something-- these are crazy ideas. look, we have this award. you can just forget that.

that should be a strong voice, and let them do what they have to do, wall street will be doing their job, whatever they have been thinking, but i am saying those who are not wall street, like us, we should be doing our thing too. we should not be waiting for them to changes changes. we should be working for us. if we believe grameen is a good idea, we should be doing grameen, whether citibank wants to, who cares? we don't care as long as this these works. if we see when the crisis comes they are the ones with all of those big pillars collapsing in the system does not collapse. if they don't want to learn from it, it is their problem. they have built an institution which is the slightest deviation suddenly start collapsing. so there is some basic weakness in the system and this is a

system which works globally and every single environment, keeps working without collateral. remember that we don't have any collateral. they have all the collateral, all the lawyers and it collapses. we don't have the collateral, we don't have the lawyers. it keeps on running. that is what is interesting about for me american right there in new york city with big banks in front of them collapsing. their business has no impact, so this lesson they have to learn for their own safety, and if this is the right one that i am talking about, it will emerge. if it is the right thing, that we can do, we can build a system where we can help for people and change their lives and we can address unemployment, which nobody can solve. all that we have learned in our textbooks for all of these years, grameen has to give them a check every month. call it the unemployment

benefit, call it welfare, call it anything, it is giving taxpayers' money to take care of yourself. why? why can't we do the other things? we can build a credit system where you have an option. not every single unemployed person will go to with that some people will. they will build their own employment and in the process that will inspire other people. i am an experienced person and a skilled person. why should we be sitting around taking government money? nobody feels that this dignified way of taking care of yourself. if i have an option to take money, i can build my own business. i don't have to work for a big company like i used to do. i am on my own. i know how to do things. and a social business, we can create social business, a very simple idea. if i can invest and it employs four people and the reason i treated this business is not to

make money for myself. i created this business to employ four people, and it works. it pays for itself. it is not a burden on me. the business of design, they will pay me back whatever invested-- investments i have invested in them. what i have done, i have found the solution to unemployment for for people. if i created business for four people and you create it, and we will be forced out of many people who are getting unemployed and somebody says i can do 40. i have a beautiful idea. i can build the business. if i'm not making money i don't have to worry about it because i have my own business there so all i want to do is simply 40 people in these 40 people are employed and they get a decent job, a decent salary. because you have designed a business in a good way and i am not interested in making money out of the business, so anybody can do that.

that would be a solution to providing unemployment in your neighborhood, in your city, wherever you are. this is the idea of social business. it is a very simple idea. anybody who is willing to do that can do that, some of these things have to be broadened. it is not just citibank will decide or wall street will decide. this is a socialistic idea. when you say socialistic idea, it is about giving part to this day. the state controls the economy. we are talking about an option for individuals. i do, you do and she does, that is that we do within that is very much in the spirit of the capitalism, free market, plenty of options for individuals. today you have no option. you have only one business. if you want social service, you only have one option. the free market is about creating options for people so you have now two different

options, one for making money, one for changing the world, so you choose which one you want to do. if i have to work for a company and if i know ametex book there are two kinds of businesses and in the world there are two kinds of businesses as the young man, as the young girl i would decide which kind of business i would be working for i work for social business or a profit-making business? if i get the same salary both ways, why don't they work for the social business? at least i will do something for the people rather than just making money for the shareholders, said this i like better so i have a choice. today there's no choice. degette degree, get a job to make a big profit for the shareholders. that is no option. >> professor how do you you

overcome the cycle where the environment whereby people who were in london or paying unemployment benefits in america might feel those unemployment benefits and adult benefits aren't large enough that they don't have the incentive to go out and work? would you cut back then? >> this came as a big challenge for us. i was invited to receive an honorary degree in glasgow and glasgow university, said they had a big celebration on the special complication for me to receive the degree. during the discussion we of course microcredit bank amen and they were telling me that glasgow city has several thousand families, who are third generation unemployed. in three generations they never saw employment. i said, how do they live?

they live because of the goals. they got the check and they took care of themselves. i said don't you try to get young people to get jobs, something? they said we took a project to do that, held the zen people to find jobs and we found decent jobs for them. they worked for two weeks, worked for six weeks and they disappeared because they enjoyed sitting around, enjoyed drinking, enjoyed the life the way they were because they have never seen the discipline of work. in their families it never happened. i said can you imagine what you ever done to the dold that you have given? you have created another kind of human being. you have permanent damage. pettis would you create. you should be creating options for people. let people take options, with do you want to take a dolt for a loan and go for yourself.

some people will take the loan option, say 5%, timbers sent, let them do it but it will create a new kind of incentive. if sloan people are succeeding, the old people will say why am i sitting here? i can do better than him, better than her. so they do the incentive. then they ask me, would you come into grameen for these people? i said, if you like we will do that, we will take that challenge. it is not easy. i was mentioning about the women. when first we went to the women they said no, no, not me. i am afraid of money. give it to my husband. we did not give up. we continued and we succeeded. that is why 97% of our women-- they will do the same thing. they will take the money, it

drag it out and say sorry i can't pay you back. but it will happen. gradually some of them will start doing it. if one succeeds, to succeed it will start a chain reaction. it is the third generation that is not easy. you have no example of any kind of the then sitting around and whatever you do with your money. it is not a single day solution. you have to start the process to do that. there will be opposition, no, no, this is not what we want. i am not saying everyone has to take a long. human life thrives on challenges unless you give challenge to human life, human life becomes vegetable life, a useless like. young people will find that out. yes, i can do things for myself and for others and that is what makes us human beings. you have to bring it up.

giving a single kind of solution, okay you are pork, here is a dollar. that is not a solution. i keep saying that welfare should be a temporary solution, not a permanent solution. the whole preamble of any welfare law should be this welfare law is passed to help people to get out of welfare as fast as possible. that is the whole purpose of this law. on the other hand, welfare laws are passed in a way you can't get out of welfare. make absolutely certain if you are on welfare, if you are earning a dollar, you have to reported to the welfare authority and welfare authority will deduct the dollar from your check. i said, what a shame. naïf i had designed the welfare law i would do it the of the

way. you earn a dollar, you report to the welfare authority. encouraged them to do that's the next time you learned to dollars so they can give $2 more. that is forgotten. that is why we have so much problem, drinking, drugs or whatever. because you have no responsibility whatsoever. you take away the sense of responsibility from the human being. if i don't feel responsible for myself. thank you. >> we are very proud of you. as a father of microcredit and we are very proud that you were born in bangladesh. i have a question for you. how many years that it takes in bangladesh especially to get--

[inaudible] as well as any political party offered you to become head of the state, do you accept it? [laughter] >> he declined that in the past. and non- >> i just mentioned that we are on the track to achieve the millenium development goal, goal number one to reduce poverty by half by 2015. so we are there. we are solidly on that track. and i keep asking in bangladesh, now that you have they have a proud nation that has achieved this goal, many nations would not able to achieve that but we will. we are designated the poorest country in the world and 150 million people, a lot of

poor people. we think that country with a poor economy and lots of poor people, if you can reduce the number by half by 2015 this is a very strong message for the world that yes began to that. we have the capacity and that is on the way. the question that i ask, is it a good time for us to set a date, and the next date after 2015? on one day we will have zero poverty. if you can reduce it by half, by the same logic you can reduce it by zero. how long will the path be? will it be ten years, 15 years, 20 years? let's set the date in work on it from now on. i suggest before anybody comes up with a day, why don't we make it 2030 as the date when nobody in bangladesh will be a poor person.

you can go around and you won't find any poor person. a big message for the world, because the usa may be the richest country in the world but they have for people. we may be steadying from the poorest country in the world but today we have no poor people. this will be a thing that we can stand very tall, that we have done that. that in dignity we don't want to have in our people and it is achievable. it is not a pipe dream or something. people used to think, in 2000 with the assembly passed the goal, all of the millenium development goals, everybody thought it would never happen. muchas like every other ungold, which never happens and you move on to another goal. i said no, if you take it seriously it will happen and it will happen for many countries, including bangladesh. this is syd. we can do that. you have to keep in mind the policies so we can achieve that.

you just put the goal and merely to the same thing you have been doing, it will happen but much later. the question is, how fast you can do it. as soon as possible, physically possible so it is a question of putting the state. it is achievable. [inaudible] >> this is what we have been talking, what i have been promoting, that we have to change the structure of the economy because the system is responsible for creating poverty. to give you an example, it is not the poor person. the fact that here she is not-- electorate is not his problem. we created that environment for her. she is sick, her daughter is on theirs, her son is mount ours. we created that. we can improve that, but we

never did that. we have beautiful programs, a government-funded and so on but the system does not work. we can improve that. those are the things which make it-- when i say at poverty free world that the same time, this is free too because you cannot have poverty and disease linked together. poverty causes ill health so if you improve the quality of life, not being pork, the children will not be said. they will be having a good diet, not a fancy diet but he decent diet so they can keep their health. children grow up not malnourished, and they will have a better life for themselves and there are many diseases in bangladesh and other countries. it doesn't need the doctors. very simple actions, like a worm in your stomach, you don't need

doctors to fix up the stomach. it spreads easily all over the country's so how to fix that. how to fix very common diseases like skin diseases. for example, we have a problem in bangladesh, a 15% of bangladeshi people are a carrier. it if a child becomes a patient, a very short life. cannot survive because of the problem, the blood transfusion and so on but again, we are one of the most densely tell us c-net carriers in the world. we don't even tell our young boys and girls we-- were getting married. to check whether your partner is a carrier, if both the husband and wife are terriers most likely the child will be patient right away.

we never tested the blood before we get married so weeks than the possibility. the next generation, there will be mere carriers before because we passed on to our children. they become sick and the carrier's produce carriers. it is a simple thing, just a simple blood test before you get married. we don't need doctors to care things, so those are attempts that someone eats it taken we have to take as citizens. >> you talked in a talk show yesterday and i saw that, and you mentioned on china, they have a shortage of people in your goal was to into thousand 30, not 15 but now you are mentioning 15 so it is it 2030 to make it zero poverty? that was a nice talk shoe. does the chinese government-- [inaudible] >> this month we will be signing the agreement with the chinese government to start grameen

china and efforts work will be in two provinces. one is szechuan and the other is in mongolia and that is where it will all begin. then we will expand to other provinces. the reason i mentioned that we have to get ready to send people to china to work, because china has the huge population. but they have a one child policy. this is the problem. now they are having a shortage of labor. they cannot retain the businesses. with their very quick expansion, the economy, which cannot be sustained by a one child policy because you cannot replace the labor that people are retiring. i said in order to sustain their growth and sustain their economy they will be needing labor, and we are the ones suppliers of labor. we have plenty of people to

work, a very able people, so they can do the work. we need to have big airports and big airlines to carry those people because when chinese people, they will need lots and lots of people, so i said get ready to see, start learning chinese. [laughter] >> thank you so much. >> we love you, we love you. >> thank you. [applause] >> we have reached the one hour mark, which is the normal time for a newsmaker so i want to thank each of you for spending part of your morning with this year the national press club and i want to thank professor yunus as well. it was a pleasure to have the here and have fun at the white house this afternoon. thank you. [applause]