management to j.d. eligible the good decision because they usually lead mars missions. spacecraft management was given to lockheed martin, the original fabricators of the 2001 hardware for the spacecraft, and a year later, august 4th, 2003, peter was called up by orlando figg o figgarone and said congratulations, phoenix is the first mars scout mission. ..

roughly 50% by volume so that is what is shown -- this is a matter of that water from the instrument shown her and the blue area shows where it detected high concentration of water. even though it is part of the gamma ray it wasn't detected by gamma ray. there was a neutron detectorn board landed detected hydrogen and the hydrogen was interpreted to be bonded with oxygen so it was interpreted this was a water ice signal so phoenix proposed to fly to the northern latitude region and a landing site was right about there, one of the sweet spots there should be lots of water and this was very exciting because nasa montrose or the themes for t nasa mars exploration is follow the water and you want to follow the water because it gives you the best

chance of detecting life. if you're going to look for life on mars you look for water because it means water to texas. first follow the water and then gives a better chance of finding life. of course those of us interted in sending peoe to mars eventually baer is obviously a very important resource for us. sohoenix had three primary science objectives. the one i am going to spend most the te is studying e history of water, identifng the water. we also want to determine if it could support life so we have instrumentation on board to look for compounds, search for salt, determine the arctic soil ph and sulfates and any other microbe energy sources we might find, and finally we have a weather stationn board as we wanted to study martian water from a polar perspective since we had never successfully landed in a martian polar area before. so this is a figure of the hardware. this is the phoenix mars lampert. we like to say it is the first

speech to a robot with all five human senses. this is the lander hardware. this is as it existed backing 2001. these are the solar panels, you have the lampert legs, i think you can see the thruster jets right here. in terms of instrumentation the main camera on board is this right here surface biskupic and letcher so that's the robot's eyes. that is how we use to see. weave and are right here, robotic arms and there is a robotic arm camera so the arm allows us to touch the surface. we also have t sets of institutional -- we have to insert samples directly into these experiments to make identifications and a study of the surface sonef those is the thermal involved gas analyzer, shown right here, and we he the electro chemistry

package which we call meca for short and it has a lot of different components. it has a piece hging out on here i will show you later. the meca also has a chemistry lainside if it so that is where we introduced the sample, take a robotic arm, did up the sample, dump it into this meca. inside the meca is a chemistry lab so you don't the soil in and mix it with water and it allows us to taste the surface and then once the material ishere we look at the webers come off so that is like our nose. also on the debt t the kodak we have the weather stations of this is the weather mask with three different temperature sensors also at the top is a wind telltale which is of low-tech. we take pictures on it and based on a deflection and t direction is bei deflected we can determine marcion will wind and the direction it is blowing and we also have a radar on board ich is the first time we've flown to mars to land.

this is a laser ranging experiment whe youend out a pulse of light and you account for ho long it takes for the light to come back so you g ranging information on that, and based on the intenty that comes back to you you can make some inferences about what the light actually hit. then underneath the lander you can't see we had a dissent imager called marty and coupled with marty was a microphone so that was the year for the mission. unfortunately for marty it was one of the original 2001 serving your hardware and they fnd out late in the game actually while we were cruising to mar that markey could interfere during the entry desntnd landing phases of the mission which is critical and if anything went wrong during the edl we would have a bad day on mars. so marty i think they're going to take 20 to 30 images then it was cut down to ten and cut down to five. i think a few weeks before landing it was going to take one image than we lost our nerve and said let's not even turn it on.

edl is too important support marti went all the way to mars and never got turned on. so now i want to go to more detail on the key pies of instrumentation we use for the water observations. the fit one of course actually has kind of a random name. you have multiple choice for what you want to call with and this camera has been called this in different. you publications and conference proceedings. sometimes we call with the stereo service ige. sometimes the surface stereo and a church, sometimes the stereoscopic imager but all of thoswe just call it ssi. this is the main camera, here is a picture. it even looks lie a person, the two allies. it has elevation motors to provide panoramic imaging capability so the motor is right

here that allows you to turn and elevation motor is located right here and that allows you to rotate about this axis so we can look negative 60 degrees down all the way to 90 degreeup and then do a full panel, zero to 360 degrees. it also sits on a deployable mass shown right here and this extends the height about six and a half feet above the surface so we have a good vantage point once we planned to take a look around and try to understand the landing site. this camera is new harare, but it was actually based on the imagery from mars pathfinr design and the only real upgrade we include to mars exploration rover detectors on board so that offered four tesigher resolution than we had and gave 1024 bayh 1024 pixels per i compared to the mars pathfinder was to 56 by 256 and a 14-degree field of view in each dimension so it was a square field of view. like i said here are the eyes

and separated by 15 senators to provide steering a data then there are 12 filters dustin the article passed and those filters are designed to help understand the geology and mineralogy of the surface as well as make atmosphere up observation about dust content. this is a picture taken by the ssi while we were building the space craft that shows some o the color chips we used once we got to mars to try to do eckert color rendering of the martian surface. this is a robotic arm, another key piecef instrumentation we needed to do the water experiment. so that's shown right here and this was the 2001 survey your arm so it's one of the old pieces of hardware but significant modifications were done after the fact and it st of became a surprise we were going to have to do this. the first thing that was done is it was lengthened because there was this concern you fly all the way to mars and to dig and dig and can't reach the ice so the arm was lengthened and the components were improved.

at one point, actually when they did the design review after phoenix was selected the found there was plastic in certain parts of this so that was taken apart and replaced. but it's constructed out aluminum and titium. and a half feet long and it was to provide up to 400 nuisance of force at the tip so at the end of the scoop but i practice we ended up going up to about 160 newtons because that is what inspired it so it has 4 degrees of freedom, this is the shoulder joint so to speak so it can move kind of like this and up and down and then it also has an elevation motor a the elbow joint so this is the elbow of the arm and it also has another elevatiomotor down by the rest down where the scoop ase, and then it also has another degree of freedom which is this wrasse debate. this is a close above the scoop museum in here and you can see

this rasp bit and it' like a drill bit and the intent is you can bring this out and if you hit a hard surface on mars you can use this to dig upnd released service and so you could get material into this group. and we also had some extra blades. this was the primary plead for digging and we had other times on the back here to try to get some material if we had a really hard layer. the tecp is on our as well but is part of the meca sweet and thisas to go directly into the surface and measures conductivity of the surface so since it has to come in contact is mounted on the robotic arm. the other interesting tng about the aretz because it was intended to get an intimate contact with martian surface it had to be sterilized by quite stringent requirement so it had to be baked out of around 260 degrees fahrenheit, had to

be sterilized and pu inside this what we call the bible barrier bags of this sits on the lander deck and we tryo keep evepything in sight that would come in tact with the martian surface, a lot more queendom the already clean it experimentation on the exposed part of the lander. a lot of care was put in to make sure we were not bringing along our own microbes or organics we were going to detect once we got to mar kind of funny thing happened though once we go there i will show you later. another key piece of instrumentation is the robotic arm camera which is a big part ofy heart because this was part of my phd dissertatio this is a picture of me sitting with the flight version of i to get but it uas 2001 mars survey your hardware so this was done around late 1999, early 20, and just sat on the shelf and in the top of going through any modifica. it flew as ase as we finished at

arizona back in 2000. it was mounted just behind the robotic arm rest. here's the arm, the camera, the figure and the scoop. it's intended to document the samples that are dug up in this group and it could also be used to documenareas of the landing site the ssi couldn't see and then the ytte that the ssa field and couldn't provide panoramic imaging the robotic arm camera could also do that since it was mounted on this movable platform it could genete panoramic images. fortunately we never had to rely on that but it was a pretty simple camera. it was a single ccd with a double lens so this is the camera. you can make up the lines behin the window. it also had this protective cover you could rotate so you didn't scratch this beautiful filter window that we have here. ns was mounted on a focus adjustment mechanism which could

generate 313 focus positions and that was required because for aging things inde the scoop you were relatively close up and if you're fortunate enough to get something interesting right on the edge of the scope we could focus on that and actually have almost microscopic resolution about 23 microns per pixel but then we could also focus on things that were far away. the image of the entire scope contents and focus shown here are about 12 different focus motor positions that allows you to manage the entire scope and focus. unlike the ssi we didn't have filters on this camera so we couldn't take color images in the normal way on marshat we take color imagebut we had this in elimination system of red, blue and green el eda. so if you are close enough to something and background elimination wasn't bright you could move up and eliminate the sample with the light and color informatioso to take a color image you do for exposures, one

in red, brown and green, one in blue and then won without lamps at all to subtract background. that is how this image was generated. this is a color image taken by the rac about a month after we launched we did a checkout of the instruments and made sure that they all survived the launch and were ready for the mission on their way to mars, and this was taken luckily speed had its own elimination system on board so it's tucked away in this bad because it's mounted to the robotic arm and we took it and took four pictures and greeted the scholar composite so this is taken between earth and mars and this is a picture of the scoop, robotic arm scoop and you can see the inside of the bio barrier bag. it was neat picture for me because it proved this instrument surve the stress of launch and looked like we would have a good day once we got the land on mars. the camera though it was pretty old technology. the ccd inside was 12 fairchild

ccd. pretty old tecology. it had antiblooming ann gates which was an advantage which make sure helps ensure you don't saturate your images. the detactors didn't have anti-doping dates sometimes we were dealing with the images washing out because we were not sure the conditions but the rac didn't suffer because it had antiblooming dates that would allow you not to overexpose images but it was to developed for the dissent in the church and spectral retial letcher on the probe said this was developed back and yearly 90's. originally flew in 1997. itas theame detector on the amateur from the mars pathfinder, the same we used on the mars leader in the phoenix optical microscope that is part of the meca package used the same. so it really was pretty old technology but is still in the up doing its job that we needed it to do.

finally the final key piece of instrumentation for the water observation is the tega similar in design to the 1999 mars ehler lander tega basically from what we had before. it consists ofight single reduce you can see it built up right here. these two cells don't have the doors on them yet but there are four on each side and the ovens are located behind the doors so this is a figure of the oven and they are very small, about the size of a pencil to a research so a small amount of material can go in there, and what t ovens do is much of the amount of power required to increase the sanibel temperature at a constant rate so that's all it does. it's trying to do these temperature ramps at a constant rate and monitors how much power needs to do that so the phase transitions can be detected that way. the highest temperature ramp goes up to 1800 degrees

fahrenheit. it takes a couple of days to get there but that is how high it can go. it was intended to be sensitive to water so this is the main instrument detecting water particularly if it was really in this wheel on mars. in addition to the oven, instrument suite when you cook the material in the of in the gas tt come off or directed to a gas barometer designed to be sensitive to carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen so on and also small hydrocarbon molecules. theater thing about this, the instrument lead for this was bill boynton for the gamma ray spacecraft so bill was in a unique position he made this discery will lead this discovery using his instrument from orbit then he gets to go off and build another instrument to verify his discovery on the

ground. so is pretty neat. okay, we finally got to the launch pad in the summer of 2007 and launched on august 4th, 27 we had one day delay due to some weather problems in the area. but fortunately it went off without a hitch, than i am going to show a ltle animation here. about ten months later and 422 million miles we approach mars. we are going about 12,000 miles per hour and have to get down to 0 miles per hour in about seven minuteso we try to burn off a lot of that energy by entering the atmphere and breaking the shell. and the pair shouldeploys we e going a couple hundred miles per hour right now. the air shell falls off, the

landing legs deploy. the radar terms on a as loo at the surface to get an altitude meure and then we'd drop. fortunately the thrust first term on. the health and on very quickly and we try to get the right ientation with respect to the song for the mission. after about ten minutes into the mssion all of this stuff happens. the solar panels deploy. the ss popsp in the weather station pops up. the bio barrier bag deploys. so all that stuff happened about ten minutes after landing. the rest of these things happen. we deeply the robotic arm --

deploy the robotic arm. now we are ready to go acquire the first sample so we looked around, pick a spot. now we are grabbg a sample with this group, bring it over to the tega. thus tega door opens. we start the martian barbecue and open blight door and start doing this laser ranging exriment.

>> [inaudible] >> thether thing ian to point out is this picture right he. hopefully you have already seen it especially since we are all mars aficionados'. this was taken a few minutes before it landed on the surface. this was taken by orbit by the high rise orbit so the mars recoaissance orbiter is in orbit around mars that is a great camera on board called high rise also run at the university of ariza and weeks in advance the plan this. fireut where phoenix will be entering the martian atmosphere and commanded the camera to go ahead and try to take pictures as it was landing and certainly that would have been important that we had a failure. fortunately we didn't put it created this of some image. here's the lander at the bottom, this is the parachute and you can almost make out the parachute lines so this is the first time we had ever done this are around another planet. it was pretty neat and it happened a few minutes before we

landed. we landed at 7:38. so now i want to assureou a little bit of contrast. this is what a bad day on mars looklike. this is me and a colleague on the front page of "the los angeles times" the day after the mars lander crashed we were appealing to a hig power to save the space craft on a mission. unfortunately it didn't work but phoenix is a different stories of this is a picture from the arizona daily star, front page. this iseter again and was the day after landing and we were outside of the science operations center and some reporters we outside and asked peter what it felt to be a science rock star, and i think the question caught him off guard and he went io this routine and staed singing the doors, com on baby light my fire. [laughter] it was pretty neat. everybody was dee dee and everything was going well so that was a great day. it exercised the demons and got the monkeys off our back from the mars pour where lander days.

so these, getting right into the mission, these are the images we took aft landing. we didn't get them back right away. it took a few hours. these are preprogrammed images ssi to after deployed so this shows the landing site and you can see this political terrain so you see these troughs and high points, you can see the delineations. this is due to the active freeze fall cycle in process on the surface and this is what we expect it to see. it was textbook. we had seen this from orbit and you see this if you go up to devon island, anywhere you have an active cycle and not a lot of vegetation to interrupt you see this pattern start to appear so that was exciting. it wasn't unexpected but it was neat to see it met mur expectations and a lot of other images were engineering images so this is a picture of the robotic arm showing the bio barrier bag deployed.

unfortunately it g snagged a little bit. this deily loss of about a day. the robotic arm team wanted to wait to see if it would take care of itsf. they didn't want to snag the baggara as they were deploying the arm and unfortunately just ththermal flash rations in the up all by itsel we also have the what we call neil armstrong image, the footpad on the ground which looked like we were on good stable surface than wead images of the solar panels to show the we were going to have full power for the mission. then already on the force that was sol ciro. i'm sure ever been as sol is longer than an earth day but we call them sol and that is how we keep track of time o mars. so our very first day of land and an already on sol number four, after the robotic arm team said we are ready to start moving the arm putting it through its paces we said first we have to loo at these oth footpads and make sure we are on

stable surface so we took the arm and went over philander a took pictures of this footpad to show that we were safely on the ground. so it was good image, engineering image but we were surprised because there was something se interesting in the image and how was this feature right here. you can see a little bit in thi image. but right here it looks like e is something smoot, ghly reflective, and in addition this was directly below one of the thruster jets you can see it looked like one of the thrusters had burned a hole in something and a chunk got expelled you can see where it hit the ground right here so we we very excited by this image not only were we o stable surface but it looked like this thing we had come 422 million miles to find and we were worried we would have to dig and dig was only an inch or two below the surface and the thrusters it looked like

had done a lot of the work already so we called this feature snow queen. i should mention peter lidar, principal investigator deded the theme for naming things on the mission was going to be once upon a time so all the objects and features we hadr that we named had to come from either fairy tales or folklore so a few months before landing a graduate student was given the task populang the microsoft excel spreadsheet with the very tools or for poor and didn't infringe on disney copyright or trademark. so we called this snow queen because we had a pretty good feeling this was the water ice we had come for. the other intesting thing to look for is this right here. i don't know if you saw this already but this gave the alien blockers quite a feat for a while seeing there was obviously some kind of snail on the martian surface. this was all of the spacecraft

and when the spacecraft engineer solve this they were a littl worried because depending what it was it could either be the line or serious. we have to spend time to go back and try to get closer images with less compression using the robot arm camera to figure out what was and it ended up turning out to be a spring, it looks like a screw in this picture but it was a spring and based on the number of terms and how big the spring was that we measured the spacecraft team was able to tell where it came from and wasn the outside of the barrier bag suite on through the trouble to sterilize things a one of the dirty things and thus bringing off landing in the martian surface. [laughter] so that's kind of funny. okay so we are pretty excited. sol number four. we see these images, what were intended toe engineering images and the engineering team said we sti have to tak another look at the third foot pact because we haven't seen that yet and of course those of us on the science team saide ve to take a closer look at

the snow queen feature because that looks interesting so we went back and took more pictures d this was the closer a cture the sw queen but this was the picture of the other foot had and we said holy cow! when we took that image. snow queen was interesting but look at these features on the other side of the lander. it looked like very flat very smooth white surfaces that looked a lot like the thing we had come all the way for. and in fact the want to very far below the surface. this is two to 4 inches below the surface so we are very enthusedecause it was good indication we wouldn't have to dig too far to get to the water ice so we actually ended up needing this feare holy cow! because like i said, that's what we said when we landed and was on the list. we als tried to get color information because this is a black-and-white images and to really prove that it was water ice or went more evidence we

tried to get color images but could never getlose enough for the robotic arm camera to pull out enough color information. it looked like it had a mulken schweikert hewey but we couldn't be sure, the images were too noisy when we try to pull kolevar out. so then on sol nber ten, the spacecraft management team said all right, read to go acquire your first sample and it wasn't really too critical. we just wanted to go and see if we could dig and make sure the arm could do the thing it needed to do, so let me go back here. sol number seven. this is solber sevene decided to acquire a sample from the surface, didn't put a lot of thought into it and these are three pictures of the first sale. so this is sol number seven. these are pictures from the robotic arm camera just slightly different positions, i think the most on focused is here. so it was basically taking a swath on the martian surface,

one digging operation and you can see we are very excited because we didn't have to try really hard andhere's more interesting white flecks. then on sol number ten we decided to try to get our first sample for tega which is one of these instruments for detecting the water ice so this was the first sample that we dug for tega and we got a little trench and we called it the sample beebee bimmer -- baby bear and this was taken by the robotic arm camera before it was dumped into this before and it looks like we had a big chunk of something white that we thought would be very interesting. so we went ahead and we told the robotic arm team let's go ahead and deliver the sample to thas before, so sol number 12 that's what we did. we took a picture to show we emptied the scoop and here is the tega. you can see the doors were open and we don't everything right on

top of it. so, tega they said great we have a sample waiting. the command of the tega to start fighting the screen. there are screens over each one of these doors so that you only let small particles into the often and the screens were commanded to shake it unfortunately they were designed to shake up and down which when yohave a large mass load this isn't very efficient. it would be better efficient site to site the commanded it to shake and looked at the end, nothing there. commanded it tohake more and stil didn't see anything. it took several days. we didn't get the sample into tega until sol number 16. we deliver on sol number 12 and it took until 16. this was material different than what we expected. during the simulations on the ground using the tega and the robotic arm we tried different speech to soil semblance mixed with various concentrations of ice and sometimes tried salt and none ofhat was as cohese as this material appeared to be to

get this stuff stuck together the matter what we did in terms of vibration, vibrating that screen we couldn't get the sample down to the oven till something miraculous happened. something released in the terial and it dropped down into this tega. unfortunately it had sat and bake in passan sol all of the interesting stuff, all of the fall tolls had been driven off so it was prettyninteresting sample once they started cooking it. so while that was going on with the tega while it kept trying to shake the sample and get material in the out a we kept diggin with the robotic arm and this is an image from sol 14. this shows two of the trenches. this is cald the dodo-goldilocks complex. again we didn't have to dig very far, three or 4 inches below the surface and you start seeing this high albedo highly reflective white looking

marial, looked really promising. okay, this picture is a little bit of a detour. it doesn't have anything to do with water but i had to show it because it is one of my favorit images. it's kind of an iconic image taken by complete accident. this image wasn't supposed t exist. this image was supposed to be part of the mission scess panorama which was one of the minimum success criteria that you have to generate full-color panorama of the scene and minimize the amount of space craft hardware in the panorama, and so this had been planned out to be just an image of the landscape and eher the robotic arm was in the wrong place of the wrong time or the essence i took the wrong picture at the wrong time but i think it is a beautiful shot that shows the scoop, the robotic arm, the camera. you can even see some material in this group so this was intended to be part of the mission's success panorama. we started to call the mission

success panorama peters pan after the fairy tale characters of that is the name we gave. any way back to the bader story. this dodo-goldilocks complex we continue to dig and actively tend and made it into one big trench shown here. this is how it looked on sol 20. so we decided to stop working on that trench. that trend wasn't all that interesting. it was sort of a first test trench to see how we were doing, how we couldig into the surface and we decided to leave it alone while we went off and did other things. but we continued to moderate. we continue to take pictures using ps as i and what happened on sol 24, we noticed these three chunks of material cut which were about the size of the ice had actually disappeared. so this was the smoking gun that all of this stuff we were seeg was in fact water ice, the stuff we had come all that weight t

study. and in fact it was kind of interesting because there were some geochemistry team members who were starting to build arguments that a lot of this stuff we were seeing was actually salt because according to some calculations the wte material was a lot more stable than what you would think water ice might be. but the fact that it disappeared said no it's actually not salt, it is water ice. there is a big conference and fortunately we could stop calling it these torturedam like hi of the bill, high lease move material, highly reflective material. we finally said this is water ice and there was a big conference and was a greatay for the mission. every time we had an opportunity when we were not doing digging or we were not doing delivery samples to the instruments we would go back and take pictures underneath of snow white or snow queen and holy cow! and we started to see interesting things happening on

philander stocks which are these right now. we started to call these barnicals. we didn't see any changes in snow queen until sol 29 which was the smoking gun that it was a water ice feature. at this point in the mission around the sol 20 or so there was a @oint we decided what should we do? should we try to get the first good tega sample from the trench that we already dog, the dodo-goldilocks complex or dig a new trench and the team was split in half but peter lidar was on the side of the team or in the court and said let's take a new treh so this was the new one. this is the snow white trench, this is how it looked on sol 43. this was a lot harder to dig and

in retrospect we should have taken the first sample out of the dodo-goldilocks trench because what happened is we hit a hard layer pretty quickly and you can see that here, the chatter marks on the bottom of the trench for right here. sevi robotic rm hithis lawyer and kind of skipped across it and the robotic arm guy said this had the consistency of close tee mant said this was difficult to dig into. we spent a lot of time to get a sample out of the snow white trench in fact this is a true color image and thiss a full-color image that bringout the ice features a little bit more but these are areas we try to use the rasp and get some samples into the scoop petraeus we tried that a lot. we worked this trench, and rasp and then we would deliver to the tega complely blind because we didn't want the same thing to happen that happened with the baby bear sample that had been

with the tega, all the interesting stuff is drive off the table while we wait t look and we had to do that a lot, it took a lot of practice. on sol we came up empty. this is the door waiting for a sample but no sample was delivered. finally after practice on sol 64 tega finally delivered a sample to tega and shorty enough we started to break it and solve the walter kysa signature so this is a trace signal drom the calendar so this is the power of the ovens are putting in as a function of time and right here 0 degrees you expect water to be driven you see we had to pump and more power to keep the temperature ramp constant. then also wants the paper was driven off it went to the spectrometer and this is the trace house will show when we got a signal and the eight to channel some this is a big deal,

the rall data. i don't know if you see this published but this is the data we worked with whent was discovered and a big press conference was called and we said phoenix discovered water ice and they were kind of underwhelmed because they said it and you tell us that onol 24 and in fact we had but giving a sample into the tega was one of the missi requirements, so it still was an exciting day for the tega team. as the windy the commission went on we saw walter start to condense on theurface, so that is what is shown here. andgain, i kind of running out of time but i did want to assure this cohesiveness of the soil and this was unexpected. we didn't expect the material to be just holding itself together and you can see what was happening here the picture from th rac. between that time we didn't do

anything. we didn't move the rotic arm or the scoop. but the material starts reading of it so stuff starts to get driven off the soil than the soil starts to release just like we saw with the first teg sample. now i do want to show -- i have to take the time for this, it is a sort of controversy rult or measurement we made from phoenix and we think we may have seemed liquid water inaction on mars and as many of you know liquid water because the triple pnt actually can exist at least pure water shouldn't be able toxist on the martian surface but if the water is mixed with some kind of salt or combined solution it changes the triple point to the point you could actually have liquid water and this was predict back in 2001 which we were not aware of until we started making these observations and did a literature search and it had been theoretically predicted you might see this in certain places so i am going to show you a little animation and you can judge for yourselves.

rac images under the lander. what you want to look at is the materialhat is located on the strut, these barnacl. first the nation goeshrough this great images showing how the particles changed over time. but it looks like is happening is actuallemerges with this other globule and you get one big drop of something, at least that's the interpretation. this next round of images shows interrelationsetween the images that's more convincing at least to some folks. so the idea is this was liquid water that is sucking up more worcester out of the atmosphere over time than the particle gross and you look at these

other particles it qeems like they disappear and fallff distraught so this result has gone through peer review and is going to be published in gigi are planets and this is the tie of your interested in looking it up, the lead author is from the unirsity of michigan. quote let me justkiphis in the interest of time. so phoenix went into safe mode o sol 152 so these are the last images we got back from the lender on sol 149 this was a rac image taken of the tecp probe into the surface. this was the sunset we took on sol 150 and finally the last image we got back was on sol 151, and on sol 162 we got the last signal. we kept going into this fall to mode or lazarus mode as we called it and we hope to reestablish control when we started to have problems on sol

152 bu on sol 162 we got the last signal three's of the missiowas declared over on november 10th, 2008 at the same time the magazine held and all online phoenix epitaph conference. this was the winner of phrase i came, i saw, the i dug. and then a kind of heartfelt one, every robotic leander dot i's, not every robotic clean virtually lives and for 2010, will i dream. it is summarized phoenix was a successful mission. we had our nominal 90 sol mission extended to 162 sol. we conducted investigations on 149 out of the 152 sol so that was good and for about a quarter of fossil the team thisas a great experience. helped get the monkey off our back from the mars polar labor. it was the work we put in trying to make observations at a martian polar area.

we return over 25,000 images. this is the final version o the mission's success panorama and you can see that they did go back and took the image that doesn't have the robotic arm in the way. this was the final version of the image, and our first big science revolt, the peer review results were published last month in science magazine so that's what cover shown here. of course there's a paper in the all of this water ice observation we made and also the i dug presented heirrguments for the detection carbonates and also the neck and team detected an interesting solwe hadn't expected to see. i am out of time he but time for a few questions? to questio. >> he believes even to this day that he found life on mars given what phoenix found this?

>> chabad like i should and of the earlier charts phoenix was intended to identify organics. we found after the fact we were on lucky we didn't detect any organics during the phoenix mission and even if there were organics it's likely the presence of this pachauri, magnesium for cory would destroy the organics during the tender ramp on the tega so we looked out again in this quest to find organics on mars. we were just not lucky. >> you didn't mention anything about on t moon there was considerable problem about that. to he any information about the dust? >> in terms of the size? >> i didn't see any evidence of dustin -- >> this is a high latitude wher we landed and we actually saw dust ihink they saw 34 dust

devils and there are 33 instances the temperature change was also indicative that aust devil had gone directly over the lander. [applause] >> tega, brent that was great. the probable water droplets on thlegs are just amazing we are quite fortunate to see dr. stephen squire's talk about opportunity the other night while the next speaker is going to talk about the science laboratory which is the next

generation of rover, much bigger and more capable than the opportunity rover so this should be pretty exciting. he's the principal investigator for the simple analysis of the science laboratory. heas been working many years at the nassau goddard space center and is the chief of the experiment exploration division at nasa goddard and he is development of space qualified and has implementations. ladies and gentlemen, dr. paul mahaffy. [applause] thanks, chris, very much appreciate the invitation to talk here. i am going to follow up a little bit more on this topic of organics and how it ties to the question we are pursuing was there ever life on mars if there was never life on mars, why not?

is there evidence there was a past life on mars and so on so i am going to talk about msl, the mission to be landed on the surface after phoenix by going to get they're a little bit indirectly. wander around and talk a little bit about what we now think of the history of earth and mars, talk about how we get at this qestion with looking for varis by yo martyrs' whether they are in the atmosphere or the surface and then kind of the perimeter space missions before msl and after msl that will help us get answers hopefully to some of these questions. and then it will but more specifically about msl, which we hope to launch in a couple of years and is the next really big rover on mars. msl just got ned curiosity it does got to get in the habit of not calling it msl which is an acronym f the mars science

lab, but curiosity which a student one in a contest. of course telescopes are great things. before telescopes' mars mythology was the roman god of war and temples were built and in athens you can look in honor of mars but then telescopes' came along and of cours we started figuring out the planets orbited around around the sun and galileo of course made these wonderful telescopes, and once people started looking at mars they discovered things like the poll of mars and was discovered feures on mars because of the quality of the telescope's imaginations went a little bit wild and he believed he called these canelli. with this idea of canali and

possible water there might be other lifen mars and what it might look like folks had to use their iginations. a good as jn test observed this and tried to map this out, and of course there was this 1938 radio drama where the invasion of the marcion's was happening and it scared the dickens out of all sorts of people, like a serpent. so of crse hollywood picked up on this and since 1964 it just looked at a few of the movies that involved mars classics like santa claus cquers the rcion's and of coue the one i really like, total recall starring arnold who is now

running california and so on but of course these feature little green men won't necessarily friendly to us and of course now the ideas were not necessarily looking for things with four or six legs but we want to understand did primitive microbial life ever developed on mars. that has been a driver for part of the program but as you folks understand getting to mars of human beings trying to get to mars with robotic spacecraft. the russians freely put an effort into this and thepace age was coming a lot of failures but of course understandingow to do rocketry and get things into space was its infancy so i kind of color-coded the failures, even to the eckert either launch failures or cruise failures, there's a lot of red and a bit of data came back from launches in 1971.

the u.s. started later than that. first was a failure than 64 and 71. some partial success mariner nine got to map the planet a bit d there we no canali but it was pretty dry, no liquid water but volcanoes and water and lots of other good stuff. 1973 campaign again next mars orbiter lasted a bit, mars seven lander got to send data but none from the surface. so if you look a the pre-viking if you're kping score and that mars was out to get spacecraft the home team had 14 and the deseers had to. it was kind of an amazing statistic but than 75 camel long and the viking landers, just

amazing how rapidly our understanding how to get to space and ld on another planet progressed, justn amazing vehicle, to viking landers landed successfully on the surface. jerry is shown here and heres a picture showing ts rocky desert place in print from the arm similar to what was described for phoenix and by that time the missions were looking for life, they were looking for microbial life and set up experiments to dohat specifically and i will just talk a little about one, gas exchange experiment that was referred to. doleeen to date to- it kind of got what looked like a positive result and however there was a gas spectrometer on

board and the fault was if you have microbes and organics when you heat things up just like tega on phoenix. they were all seeing backgrounds from the instrument but no organics commesso that kind of put the exploration for life into a building on for quite awhile, ite a few years though the exploration of mars continued. the soviets were successful with mars pathfinder was one of the first of these faster, smaller, cheaper rovers and the little guy smiling it worked and of data back and elemental composition of the rocks and then a bomber there were a couple of failures brent talked about as well with the polar lander and mars quiet or better -- climate orbiter. this set of data is wht i think

has turned our understanding of speech to a around. it's from an instrument called mola, it measures the time it takes to get spacecraft and maps of the topography of mars and it's amazing what level of geography you can do with this type of dat and also combined with high resolion imaging from mars so we have transformed our understanding of mars based on their recent set of spacecraft results. japan got int the game and had a faire with their first mars mission. esa said of the mission to mars express, it had a image and he is one of the reall interesting images of these salts, and what has transformed mars it started

with mars express common european spacecraft doing spectroscopy. if you take an infrared spectra of eight rock for example you get a certain pattern coming back and, you know, nobody really knew whether mars would be so totally covered by the dust storms and everything that you could see differences but it fact it turns out you can see differences and u can identify if not really specific minerals at least glasses of minerals from the mars orbit so that started with the esa missions and in particular the mission now working well, mars reconnaissance orbiter is doing that getting both very, very high spatial images. use all those images of stuff on the surface of phoenix lanr for example and also this beautiful spectroscopy. so our understanding of mars from orbit is tremendously improved. brandt talked about this mapping

of the hydrogen, another fundamental result, and then of course came rovers' which were an incredible success, landed with their balloon airbags deploying and bouncing around the service to a stop and they got named spirit and opportunity and the kind of idea of that mission was to understand if there was chemical evidence on the surface r transformation by liquid water or if that was kind of gone with the geological procesng that happened on mars d sure enough they saw minerals, one shall hear from the experimt that showed that indeed surface water had been at the location of the rover opportunity. spirit kind of land on the other side of the planet. you can see if you are close ejough to the front this ima of this dust devil going across

the surface of mars, and the kind of land in what the thought might be interesting a lake bed. the old lake bed however was covered with this celtic material that covered the interesting stuff that may have been deeper so they didn't really get to the evidence of the aqueous transformation on till the charged over to the hills and that is where they are now, actually the rover is still working but one of its wheels is gone and it's kind of stock and one place for quite awhile. but both of these lenders work tremendously successful. here is opportunity again from space if you look carefully you can see it. the rows are pointing to it and also its track over bye victoria the crater and just spectacular images of that. of course you should have your stereo glasses and heould be to see thi in stereo but the

panoramic if you look at it on the web in stereo it is an incredibly spectacular. and of course opportunity went down into various craters and it's now trenching of trying to find another one. so i won't talk about phoenix. brent talked about that, but just a little bit how miers' different from earth. earth of course is covered with both continents and water. mars has no liquid water that we can see to any extent on the surface. the moon actually stabilizes the obliquity of the earth and so it doesn't vary around in time but on mars that ferries around in time and leads to interesting geology for example the ice caps moving around on these hundred thousand longer time periods and of course the atmosphere of miers' much less dense than a rough, about 1100 primarily carbon dioxide.

.. >> we might be able to get back to a very early time with chemical evidence and see what's there. the earth, of course, had oceans early on, it was an iron-ri

ocea early on, but there wasn't really much oxygen at all in the atmosphere. and then the atmosphere gradlly, as time moved along, got more oxygen rich we believe microbial life developed early on even without oxygen, and then more complex life, multicellular lif probably didn't emerg to much more -- until much more recent ri. on mars it's kind of a much dierent history. early on it was almost certainly much more water rich. how long the water stayed around, you know, for hundreds of thousands of years or for millions of years is a question that's being asked, but there's certainly evidence of water flow. early on thereere clays chemically formed by sface water, and we can see speck to scopic evidence of those from space right now. and that's probably the time, plausibly the time thatars was

most habitable on the surface. thenhere was a period where kind of the surface chemistries got influenced by volcanos. you see these really huge volcanos on mars, and that certainly changed the chemistry, and there almost certainly was some sort of fundamental climate change that happened in that time. and becausef all the volcanic activity, a lot of the chemistry got dominated by softer chemistry. so now is surface tends to be more acidic and sulfur chemistry dominated. and in recent billions of years the geological activity of mars has probably really slowedown. we don't really know if there's anything much coming from the interior of mars or not although we're seeing some really interesting results that i'll talk about in a minute of a very simple hydrocarbon methane which is showing up in the atmosphere

of mars. so mars which early on may have had kind of a molten core in the middle had a magnetic field due to that magnetic core. that probably froze out because mars is small planet much earlier than on earth, and the interior of mars now may be cold, and that kind of influences what happens at the surface because you don't have things movifg around and as geologically active as they are on earth. so how do you get at this life question? well, life produces complex molecules as well as simple molecus, and in the simple molecules some of them can go into the atmosphere, and you can measure them. one way to start the search for life on mar is through re-- mars is through remote searching of methane. in the arctic there are all sorts of methane-producing bacteria living in the perma frost although a good share

comes from cows and other types of mammals. and so one way to start the search for potential biomarkers is to look for some of these trace gases that's very, very difficult to do from earth. and it would be easier from orbit but, of course, it's much more expensive to do from orbit. that search has started, and this analysis of data from a program that mike goddard started showed these color coded on the left signatures of methane way down in the parts per billion. very, very low traces of methane. but the really interesting thing about that detext is in the -- detection is in the atmosphere of mars, photochemistry, alh of our models suggest that methane if it was produced, it should last for quite a few years, maybe 350 years. and by golly, when mike looked

for mhane, they found it, but then a few months later it appeared to be totally gone. so a very difficult set of da taken from a mountain in hawaii, a telescope that gets above much of the atmosphere. and so if methane is being destroyed, how is it destroyed? that's still an outstanding question, andhe it comes from is, also, not known. of course, it would be really interesting if it was from biology, little pocketsover water way down deep happily producing methane as is kind of shown in this animation onhe left, or it could be from inorganic reactions very deep water in the subsurface and then some vents that are leading up to the surface. and the artists at goddard tried to itrate that at well. and, you know, potentially at certain seasons as the ice is on the sides of these hills melt, then the methane has a path to escape. and so it's really a fundamental

question of where methane is coming from. is it one of the signatures of life that'sen mars or not? -- on mars or not? of course, life produces these complex molecules. they're not going to go into the atmosphere in this very cold envinment, so the only way to get to themsig down in the surface and get atld rocks, and that's what we're intending to do with the curiousty rover. for those of you who have taken organic chemistry, these little stick-type figures are just carbon atoms and showing the structure of the carbon atoms as i've illustrated below. and it turns out that life ten to put patterns into, it creates order out of disorder. if you make organics in space and you look at carbon that comes in from meteorites, it's kind of randomized. but if you look at things that life produced, you have enzymes

chopping off orroducing two sets of carbon atoms at a time, and so you hav structu in your organics. and so the hope with the msl instrument is that we might find some of those organics. and at least look for those patterns. for example, if you have a crocodile or alligator, whatever this is and it has happy life and then turns into a skeleton, simply if you have -- similar if you have a membrane of a cell and the cell is dd and gets buried in a rock somewhere, that molecu might be changed a little bit as is shown here, but it's still there unless there's some process that's vigorously destroying that. and so just like you would have a sketal fossil on ear, you might he a molecular fossil that will tell you something about mars. and like i mentioned, there are patterns in these molecular fossils, and the fossils tend to be things that are t carbons

apart. and so, you know, just as in understanding whether a location on earth or mars is a good environment for life, you'd have to lk at a variety of things like the chemistry or t elements necsary for life there and so on. there's also kind of this molecular record that you want to look at. both isotopes which i've not talked about, but then the structure of the molecules. and so this whole thing gives rise to an ecological pattern. we try really hard to understand how to do this exploration best by going to places on earth that might be as representative as we can find of martian locations. so, for example, next week i'm headed out with crew north of norway where there's old volcanos that might have erupted under glaciers kind of similar to mars sites. we have a lot of none up there. -- fun up there.

people carry rifles aroundust in case polar bear's charging us, although we pay great respect to polar bears. it's really their turf. and for the group picture we always dress up as men in black, kind of these aliens that are invading this very pristine area. and so there it is, not too far away from the north pole. the sun's always shining this time of year, it'll be daylight when we get up the, and it's cold, it's dry, it has different rock types and different environmental conditions from down here at mid latitudes where life is very vigorous and rapidly transforms everything. so it's really interesting. you find things that kind of look like things that we observe on mars. here's a sand stone with these con creases there and little very tenuous life living on the surfacof the rock, things that look like images that came from mer. i won't tell you which is an arctic and which is images, but

they're kindf split 50/50 in this image. and what we do is we kind of looc for these molecular fossils. we take spectrometers like we're going to fly, and we separate out th gases and do chemical analysis, and we see these patterns. so here's e of the world's northern most hot springs up there, and this little green stuff growing on the surface of rocks is, is microorganisms. and so we can imagine tt that type of environment might have existed early on on mars when mars had a heavier atmosphere and was a bit warmer and a little bit more friendly for life. so let me talk just a little bit about where we are in the mars program. i've kind of covered everything with just a snapshot to the left. i'm going t talk a little bit about msl, but what's coming up after msl is a mission that's going to orbit mars and look for gases that are escaping from

mars. that mission is called maven, and then there's really great hope at nasa that we can't do this all alone. we just don't have the resourc with all the stuff that needs to be funded here on earth to do it on our own. and so we're going to try and join forces with the europeans, and that progr is undergoing planning. the most recent thought is that in 2016 nasa might send an orbiter aund mars that looks for some of those trace gases. not only methane, but also a suite of other gases and isotopes which tell you how heavier the light elements in those molecules are and how they get processed. for example, very light detier rum to hydrogen in the water might be an indication of something that's coming up from way down deep. the normal d to h in mars' atmosphere is much heavier. it's been enriched over time in

the heavier species. and then in 2018 if this plan works, both nasa and' saw would send a mission to the surface. it's a rover, and they're going to dig about a meter down and see what they can find. and then nasa would be sending something that was a precursor to sample return which, hopefully, would follow in 2020 and beyond. so getting specifically to msr, we hav just these wonderful tools from orbit. we're narrowing down the sites where msl might want to look for stuff, and hers four of them. a couple of craters that show very clear evidence of water flow, holden crater, and then a couple of spots where the signatures of these really interesting minerals probably from very early mars are. and so we're going to kd of go, you know, the goal of the ssion is not stated as we're

going to o find life. we probably don't have the tools or know exactly how to do that. weon't know what life way back when might have looked like even, but we're going to look for potential habitat, things that might have been friendly to fe in theast and try and at least start to get a handle on, on the pareters of life. so the landing scheme is really interesting premise. this sky crane where basically the rover gets tethered down a lands right on the surface. i can show a little animation if we have time. but the rover itself is reall a huge step in capability of bringing robotic tools to the surface of mars. the mass camera is up about 2 meters, and the wheels are kind of about that high, about half a meter high. and so this thing is really a monster rover powered by a radio isotope source that doesn't

depend on sunlit to charge solar cells at night and charges a battery. and there's kind of a picture of a few people standing around a mock-up of the wheel part of this rover. and so the tools on this you'll be interested in hearing about, some of which are like the tools that were on mer. you have cam pas on the mast, you have a microscope on the arm. there's an experimensimilar to the neutron detective from space. very, very low spatial resolution, kind of hundreds of kilometers. this is a rusan-pvided neutron source on the back of the rover that pulses out about 10 million neutrons at one time and looks at what comes back. so it can detect water ice directly benea t rover. the tools that kind of do survey for us, some of them are similar to mer. there's a part bl that looks at

composition on the arm. there's a really neat experiment that los alamos is creating which is up on the mast there's a laser, and up to 10 meters away, this laser can zap a rock, and then there's this big mirror on the laser. from the emissions that come from the rock, you can very rapidly tell is one rock different froanother rock? and that's really useful because, you know, the rocks might be covered with dust, and this laser can get below and kind of really interrogate the chemical composition of the rock. and if the rock's reall interesting, then we take it to what's called the analytic lab on mars science lab, and half of the -- the other half is really an x-ray defraction, x-ray flores sensexperiment which is a way of identifying minerals. so the minerals tha mer was

able to finwere from this experiment which basically can do a pretty good job of some iron minerals, but with the xrdxr experiment, we'll really be able to nail the processing that's happeneon the surface of mars. so what is sam? sam is our, the experiment that we're developing at gdard in collaboration with jpl and in collaboration with french colleagues. we have a mass spectrometer basically ionizes some of the gas. we analyze those by those mass to charge ratio. it has a gas crow mat graph that separates out complex mixtures of gas in time and then sends those to the mass speck tommer spectrometer. and then it has something that jpl is providing, and that looks essentially for both trace methane and looks for -- does

very precise measurements of some of the isotops. and so really a really core part of our experiment so where might organics on mars have come from you know, on earth all sorts of stuff is coming in the form of meteorites. every year hundreds of these get collecd. and so those are fling on mars as wel in fact, mer went around and foun some meteor meteorites. it may be the carbon that was there on mars early in its history got processed into fairly complex forms, and if we found some of that, that would be really, really interesting. and then the organics we're trying to avoid come from msl itsel. there's this b rover and, of course, there are all sorts of boards with informal codings to keep them safe. and so the over itself can outguess things. and we're such a sensitive note, that we have to worry about that

a lot. so we are. what might destroy organic sun mars? well, we don't really know. rent talked about maybe it was mper by pclear rates, that may be true. for example, dust storms or dust devils do some bhemistry in the atmosphere tha most likely makes hydrogen peroxide. you can imagine if this kind of sterilizing agent is landing on the sface that it could destroy surface organics, and that's why we're trying to get to the interior rocks. if something sits very near the suace for a while, there's not as much atmosphere on mars, so this cosmic radiation can penetrate down to the surface, and other billions of -- over billions of years they can croix organics as well -- destroy organics as well. so our approach really we don't know where the organics might

have come from. potentially that might be ver very interesting signatures of life in the most ideal case, so our approach is to look at as broad a spectrum as we can. w can go tens of kilometers, hopefully find interesting rocks. so we're going to look for the broad spectrum of organics. we have a set of experiment designed to look for things that are really, really interesting like amino based which are kind of the building blocks of proteins and cells on earth. and so this is kind of the pro-e solid model version of what sam looks like with its six gc columns, it's tls and its mass spectrometer. dropping sam into a carousel that has 74 cups.

the carousel will then rotate over to an oven, we'll move the cup into an even, we'll start heating it up and look at the gases that come off. this specker is from jupiter we got in 1995, and this is what the tune of a laser -- tube of a laser spectrometer looks like. it bounces light back and forth between mirrors 50 some times to increase the path length and get a more sensitive detection for methane. if we're lucky enough to find a complex mixture of orr begannics, it'll let us separate those out into the individual constituents. of course, theeal instrumen doesn't look nearly as neat as the pro-e model. and with all the little vafs and heaters and tubes to carry gas around it's just full of wires

running from the control electronics to the various devices. and what we do to test it is we put it in an environment that's almost identical, as identical as we can make it to the environment it's going to sit in in t curiousty rover. so we have a cooling loop that comes from theover that takes th waste heat from the radio isotope source and then circulates it across the top deck. so we have a dk that looks just like that in this mars chamber. from the sides to the walls are all independently temperature controlled, so we believe the environment in this chamber full of mars gases at the right pressure is almost exactly what the environment is we see on mars. you really need to test these things under conditions that you'll be, that you'll be running them in on another planet. the philosophy on that is test

as you fly, fly as you test. do everything possible to make sure your experiment sees the right eironment. so that's what we've been working on for the last few years. is there life in mars? was there lif on mars? we dill don't know, but one plausible path towards getting an answer to that question is doing as best a job as we can. and so we're working as hard we can to answer that question. so launch of msl in 2011, it'll be an exciting time. stay tuned. and it should operate for one mars year which is two earth years. that it's nominal mission on the as far as of mars, but as we all know they may be biased for a decade or so. so we'll be looking toward to, hopefully, having everything work and getting data back from

ours in another couple years. [appuse] and do we have time for a couple questions? >> yes, sir. oh, okay. i was curious on the science laboratory, how many of the instruments require an absolute calibration? of some measure or another, opacities, length, that sort of thing, and do you iend to be able to check these calibrations after landing? >>away. all the instruments require calibration. and because they're very different types of instruments, they're calibrated differently. let me talk about how we do it a little bit on msl. we run gases that we are similar to gases that we expect to see on mars through our instrument, for example, in the flight instrument we put a littl bit of a sulfate and hot water

contning sulfate and a little t of @ carbonate, and we look for the evolved carbon dioxide and the evolved so2 and the evolved water, and we get the response of the experiment. what we're doing is being very, very careful, however, not to put gases like complex hydrocarbon as that might be really interesting in mars that might stay around the instrument and give us a false positive. so we tend to work in terms of hydrocarbons with nor mated compounds that have flour leans in some locations. it's such a low abundance element that we're not very likely to see those types of compound on mars, so we calibrate with some of those gases. we even bring some to mars so we can calibrate in situ. another interesti thing we do to nail the organicetection thing which is really important is we have a standard which is

material that's mtly silica. they have some of these trace flour ro carbons that will drill into, it'll go through the whole processing change and then we'll analyze the flour row carbons in there. it'll let us know if it's working right, but, yeah, all the instruments require calibration. we're all writing plans for the office and working hard on that. >> would dust be a problem? i mean, you have to have gas sample that gets in there in the path links, right? >> yea no, we worry a lot about dust. we not only measure gases coming from evolved solids, but we suck in some of the atmosphere. in fact, we've built a dust chamber at mars where we put some of our components and understand how much stuff it takes to damage them.

but we're just letting the molecules and keeping the dust out. but it really is a worry. before we're ready to get a solid sample, the door will open, we'll dump the sample in, and we'll close the door. as we're kind of traversing across the surface, we're not getting dust in the instrument. >> right. thank you. >> will you be checking for c12 and c13 sotope ratios? because i've heard that life is depleted in c13 as cpared to raw carbon. >> yeah. no, that' really an interesting experiment to make. and we do intend to do that. that's one of the reasons we had this laser spectrometer on board. it measures ver precisely the carbon 13 to carbon 12 ratio in co2 only it's very narrow bandwidth. and so we'll measure it in the atmosphere, that'll be interesting. we're look at carbon dioxide mr. a very ancient rock.

that'll be interesting. but then how do we get at carbon in a complex organic that might be i the soil? the way we do that is bring along a combustion gas, we bring along oxygen, and we return the carbon that might be there into co2, and then we introduce that into the laser spectrometer. so, yeah, that's a really interesting experiment, and we're set up to d that on msl. >> but you won't be looking at the methane this way. >> we will also look at the carbon 12 to carbon 13 ratio in the methane. the methane is down at the parts per billionevel, and so the tls can measure methane as even sub parts per billion. if it's way down there inarts r trillion, then the measurements become very difficult. if we're in an area where methane is at least tens of parts per billion, then we should get a good measurement. >> i see.

okay. do you, do you intend to run samples for any of the martian meteorites through your instrumentation suite? >> not through our flight instrument. we're trying to be just really fastidious aut what we put in there so that we don't bring any unwanted stuff to mars. what we're in the process of building right now is what we call a tes bed. it's a nearly identity identical experiment that we can put into aars claimer. we run mars meteorites with this type of passing in the lab. we have, for example, merchant samples and so on. and our analysis isn't as sophisticated as, obviously, some of the labatory analysis we can do. so it's really interesting to compare what our relatively simple evolved gas ec people what it turns something into compared to, you know, these very fest candidated liquid extraction experiments that we

also run in the lab. but, yeah, once we get our test bins set up, we'll also be running meteorites through the test bin. >> you are mentioning the sample, but do we really believe that laboratory on earth can spot something that phistited, let's say, robotic laboraty like yours could not spot? >> yeah, no, absolutely. there's, you know, a big drive in the community of scitists interest in mars to bring sample back. and even with all the sophistication we're trying to put into this experiment, there's no way we can do the whole suite of analyses, the range of analyses that we could do in terrestrial labatories. those laboratories, of course, are way ahead of the capabilities of what we send to mars. one good thing about sending a sophisticated lab t a site on mars, if you find something

really tantalizing, for example, compx organic chemistry, that that might be a prime spot to send a sple return vehicle and return sample to earth. of course, that's expensive, you know? five or more billion dollars. and, hopefully, it'll happen one of these decades. it's been on the books for wile quite a while and just because of the cost is very difficult to get off the ground. >> but bringing sample back will not just increase the possibility of biological contamination? >> yeah. and that's something that people think very hard about as wel we're developing tools to really sterilize and have very, very clean acqsition tools, keep the tools that collect the sale total isolated from the environment, pull out a tool, for example, a core. core out a piece of a rock and then put it back in the sealed container. and then there are all sorts of international agreements that say don't bring back things to earth that might potentially be

of danger, a different type of microorganism to earth. so the outside of this container that returns to earth will have to be very, very sterile, and then it'll have to be looked at inside a containment facility and only if we found out it was benign would it be distributeed to other labs. and i think i am getting the signal here, so thanks very much. [applause] ..

the private donations? >> taxpayers? >> grant and stuff like that. >> donations. >> i don't know where the money comes from. >> pettily? >> contributions from donors. >> how is c-span funded? americans-- a private business initiative. no government mandate, no government money. >> a look now at the future charter schools and voucher programs. this is hosted by the thomas b. fordham institute, a think-tank focused on education issues. it is an hour and 25 minutes. >> good afternoon. my name is mike petrilli and i'm

one of the vice presidens that they thomas b. fordham institute. very excited to have such a full run on a hot day in washington in august. not everybody goes to martha's vineyard in washington this week, so we are glad to have you here. this is going to be a very interesting discussion and it may not be quite as contentious as the health care debate taking place around the country. we don't expect there to be anything from and by the way tc-99 has very strict gun laws, so you have got to check-- at the door and turnethe cell phones off but this is a very important debate that we are having within the education policy world about charter schools, school vouchers and other forms of school choice. for those of you don't know too much about the thomas b. fordham institute we are a think-tank in washington dc. we covered education policy. we also do on the groundworkn ohio, specifically in dayton where we have an office and policy working kolasa we are

rooted in a real place and a place with real kids were reserve those kids directly. we have for a long time have been promoting various forms of parental cice in ecation. that includes private schools vouchers, and in dayton we stuck started a voucher program over a decade ago. the state has a publicly funded voucher programs statewide. we have also been very active in the charter school movement in ohio and we actually sponsor and overseas six charter schools and dayton, columbus a the cincinnati area so we are very much involved in this movement. we are supporters on both the voucher side and the charter schools side but we have also noticed that political winds have changed in recent months and the recent years, that there has been a lot of discussion about whether or not there is still a viable future for t private school choice movement, vouchers, tax credits, the ability for parents, usually low-income parents, to take public dollars to their private

school of choice versus what you might call the ascension of charter schools, a reform that the obama administratn has embraced and in fact is really spreading a lot of political capital promoting in a variety of ways from using the race to the top funds, 5 billion-dollar incentive fund for states to tell states that want to get a better shot at getting the money they have got to adopt more charter school friendly policies. let me start off by reading a quote from the president. he gave an intervi about a month ago to "the washington post" when the top application ken. here's wt he said about these various forms of school choice. i've been opposed to doctors because i worry about resources beingrained out of the public-school system, and careening from the system until you have the school system only dealing with the toughest ks. on the other hand i think charters which are within the public-school system forced the kind of experimentation and innovation that helps drive excellence and every other aspect of life and i think that is a positive thing as long as

we are continuing to set high standards and applying them consistently to the charter schools. so, u can say that charters are hot and vouchers are not in today's washington and of course the question for today is does this matter? does this ascendancy of charter schoolhave negative implications for the private school choice movemt or do these movements goand-in-hand? our doctors and tax credits passé or do they have a promising future ahead. the way we frame this debate has kind of in some ways pitting charter schools against vouchers has already been a matter of some debate. of course you have got to love the blogosphere and it is already buzzing about this event in advance. jay greenborough doan his plug for example, dismissing policies bec@use eyre not on the agenda of the current majority as in school vouchers is like the type of argument heard in the 1988 film. pauline yet izzo 87. so, we will talk about that

vouchers being polemic so, so many things. lasto talk out, we have a star-studd pel to address these questions today. i'm going to introduce them briefly. they will make brief five minute comments and then we will get into a moderating conversation and open up th conversation to the audience. again we have refreshments ere. don't be bashful about getting another cup of coffee or bronte to keep you going but i don't think this conversation will require too much caffeine. let's start here. starng on our left we have got john kirtley. i am going to get your title. where is my title? remind me of the name of your organization. the florida school choice fund which is one of the largest t credit scholarship granting organizations in the country and in florida. we have got kevin carey, of the education sector.

what is your official title? policy director. gerard robinson is the president of the educational options san zelman is that the corporation for public broadcasting. again, of course this susan selman of the zelman decision, the decision back in now 2003 at the supreme court level that found a school voucher to be constitutional including vouchers for schools that are religiously affiliated so we are going to start with jeb-- john and kevin and have a very interesting conversation so john, let's start with this. he heard the quote from present obama. we have got a popular democratic president, granted less popular by the day but a popular president willing to spend capital on charter schools but not on vouchers or tax credits. there seems to be a political moment for charter schools so why shouldn't people that care about expanding choices for

parents but all of our energy right now into growing the charter school movement? the first of all, thanks for having me here and thank you all for being here today and wherever you are on this topic thanks for caring about this issue because you are already ead of most people so want to thank you for that. i'm going to talk abt a lot of details today but thale raval for around a few main points in the first point is, this is an exciting time to be in k-12 education because whether we wnted to or not it is changing so rapidly than the delivery methods for public education are changing so rapidly. now you have visual schools, magnets, virtual head and some kids are combining those two even through duel enrolling at community colleges and one of my main point is that private schools particularly faith-based schools are an essential element of the public education delivery next and, the first incredibly

important points i think it is morally wrong to exclude that option from low-income parents. it is one of the most prevalent options in an urban and other low-income areas, not just urban areas and that the prize s a lot of people. it is just morly wro to exclude that option from parent i will give you a real-life example. in jacksonville, florida, it is a large urban district, probably 350,000 kids in the public school district. there are six charter schools in jacksonville, six. nolen all of them serve low-income kids by the way. there are 90 private schools servinghildren on the tax credit scholarship program in jacksoil. now, imagine you are a low income single mom in jacksonville and your son, who is doing very poorly in his assigned public school. he is just not a good fit for

that school. you want to put your kid, and this is a real-life example, a private school in the low-income area has a 90% brad-- you want to put your kid in that school. how do you you explain to her that she shouldn't he the right to do that? how you go to her and say i am for school choice but i just am for charters and youeed to wait until we bring a charter school, in fact a high-quality charter school to your neighborho before you have an option? she will let you and say my kid is going to be dead by the time a charter might get here, so the first mn point is it is morally wrong to exclude this option from lowncome parents. the second main pot i want to talk about today is that the main oppositn i hear to been for broad parental choice for low-income families is it is just too politically difficult to get this done in the fst response i have to that is what of the civil rights movement took that approach?

ip is just too hard to have full retirement forced citizens. i don't think that would have gone over well, so certain things are just so right you have got to fight for them but e second point and i think we have proven this in florida and i want to spend a lot of time talking about this today, we have taken a incredibly hostile environmt to broad parental choice and we haveurned it around you can make your political environment for ed reform more friendly for all other options if you pushed for broad parental choice. in 2001, we pass the tax credit program for low-income kids and only one democrat voted for that bill in the entire legislature. we used the assets that private school choice gives us from a political point of ew and the legislative point of view and i would love to talk about that in more detail if i have time but they include the parents, adminisprators and others.

wees the fastest to change the climate and in the most recent legislative session, we aggressively expanded this program for low-income kids. half the democrats voted for the bill. the majority of the black caucus voted for the bill, 100% hispanic caucus voted for the bill. when the sponsors was the leader of the democratic party in our state senate and we have completely changed the environment him florida such that there is now a growing consensus that bipartisan consensus around broad parental choice. charters basically exist in that safe harbor of support. if you can get a legislator to support the tax credit program, a private school choice which we can do, they will support charters, they will support merit pay. they will support. killam changes. everything else is easy sell one of the messages i nt to leave withou today is i think that

charter advocates and charter only, are selling themselves short of on the kind of environment it can create for refo by not pushing for broader parent choice. >> thank you john. next up is going to beevin carey and kevin i am going to ask you to give the other side of the story. why shouldn't progressive reformers like yourself embrace this broadbased parental choice? why does this have to be an either/or charters instead of private school choice and what you say to john's points. in a place like jacksonville you would be waiting a long time, as well as this question about the safe harbor that is greeted charter schools because of the advocacy for private school choice? >> i would say, i think vouchers are buried simple version of a very good idea, which is an idea i personally support, which is that we ought to ge all

parents options were to send their children to school and particularly parents who don't have that option by virtue of being wealthy enough to decide where to live, wch is how school choice works then continues to work in most of the country. and that we ought to do that in a way that creates market competition among schools and in a way that provides incentives for new actors and new resources to enter the public-school system. i think these are important als. i think they a a vital element of school reform and again i support them. bu once you start to think about how to apply those broad goals to public education, think you quickly come to some what i think they are pretty straightforward conclusions and one is, given that the idea is to spend large amounts of public money in this enterprise, and that there is a very high

interest in making sure that children are not exposed to low qualitychools, there needs to be a strong element of public accountability. we cannot just rely on market response to provide the kind of schools that children need. and then when you think about what to do based on those things, i think essentially you-- you are thinking of false to charter schools. i think charter schoo are vouchers with all of the roof edges worn down. i think there a more involved public policy and more effective public policy. they are clearly if you look at what is actually happening as we try vouchers and tax credits in some places in charter schools and other places, the charter school envirment has created a whole new ecosystem of the airy effective resource intensive, nonprofit organizations that are accountable to the plic can get also have flexibility to try

new educational models that have the proven ability to bring new resours, both financial resources and human resources to the surface of providing education and a large part to the most vulnerable students. the district of columbia is a perfect example of that. the fact that now have a president who is not as liberal as many people make him out to be but certainly a democrat, no question about that, who has decided, has clearly made a choice to be pro-charter schools. not a cice, not a surprising choice. it was very consistent with what he said during the campaign but it is one thing to say something during the campaign that something else to be hand $5 billion in basically have a blank slate, to really press states and sayne of those issues, the thing that will take responsibility for its charter school pac's, artificial in my mind, detrimental barriers

against expanding the charter schools. that didn't have to hpen. a democrat could have easily run and occupied the white house and be neutral and school choice, say enough to get by but not really support the school choice movement. that is not what we have. we have a president who again is pro-charter school so in that sense it is an historic opportunity to breakown what continues to be a lot of major rhetorical barriers to school choice generally. a lot of people, they are still a lot of people out there and i will say this as a progressive, more on the left than the right to more hostile to the idea of school choice you don believe in markets in public education. i think this is the opportunity to bring them into the fold of around a policy idea that has a crucial element of public accountability for public resources. >> okay, thank you kevin. we are going to go to gerard and a similar question to john's.

in ginn you have this popular president willing to talk about this issue. he is embracing it as a civil-rights issue, gave quite a speech in front of the naacp, largely about education, talks about charter schools. why not say hey, it is a political opportunity and let's focus on that right now. >> first of all let me thank the fort drum foundation for the invitation to participate in the discussion. my first symposium i attended in milwaukee several years ago, the person i had a chance to sit next to us-- so it is good to be here. one of the many deficits the american school reform suffers from is the ability to choose the right conjuncture. the fact we now are in a positi where we have to make the decision of do you stay with vouchers or do you go with charters goes away really from the mison statement of why it was foued. our mission is to actively support parental choice to empower milies come to create quality options for black

children. when we say quality oions that includes vouchers, a charter schools and virtual schools and a whole host schools because when we talked about this in 1999 and 2000 we were visionaries. many of the people are talki about this adair bolsters. before there was a large push for charter schls in 1999 when the movement was still in its infancy. we bryd one sink charters goals kmiec a difference and the work for kids and there is parental involvement. before there was a program in the sea or in new orleans, only one in milwaukee and of that time one in cleveland. i was going-- we were the ones that were saying low income and working-class parents who pay taxes into the system, it is the myth that poor people don'tay taxes, they should have the opportunity. if it means using that money for a private school, that is great. bacon bleeped over the separation which is more of a political decision then not

so we don't see any need to have to choose one of the other. we support charter schools. to open up to a small high-school. so, rather then become an opportunt we are going to focus on being an option and that is to make sure we support them all. what i also find interesting is that people don't want to support vouchers because the only help 1% of the children. when we talk about school integration and the whole push for brown, magnet schools in america educate less than 1% of the children and what did we say? we need to increase the magnet school program wally hger fix public schools. gwinnett came into the marketplace to bring in quality teachers they didn't reach more than 1% of the children at one time. what did we say? we need to increase more teachers through tfa wally herger fix the school system.

even with charter schools, they are not educating more than 1% of the student population and what we say is let's expand the 1% at the same time increase the charter market but it is interesting, when we only deal with 1% of your schools lead to an about-face and say what about the other 99%, very interesting i think it is the le of reasoning going in the wrong direction. we see ourselves appointing charters. >> okay, great. ssan, what you are in ohio, the legislature created the eveland voucher program, the charter school program moved dramatically. badly the case went to the supreme court with your name on it but you have indicated that you think perhaps the school choice is not the centerpiece to education reform. tell us about that. >> i was responsible for administering to voucher programs and charter schools or

if it is called an ohio, communities goals. here today both as a former school officer but also a senior vice president the corporation for public broadcasting in education where have actually now an official position on the vouchers or charters, but i never let my personal beliefs about charters or vouchers entered the with my professional responsibilities to ensure that these programs are administered fairly and with integrity and with the authority given to me by the state legislature. when the boucher case was settled, i did say, while the court is back, the jury is out and the reason why i said that is we had some longitudinal data about the cleveland voucher case and that plurality was that the data was the what. was unclear whether voucher students beared better in the program then the koppel students in t public schools. as a state superintendent i always ask the question, what is

good for our children and actually i do believe that communities goals or charter schools are good for our children. is hard for schools to address the needs of a children and public education needs to experimentation and innovation particularly now in the era of individualization and customization, so i look at charter schools the same way al shanker look that charter schools which was for the research and development portunities for public school system and you might remember that al shanker was the first person to proposed charter schools at the time when my friend shakir was the assistant secretary who then opposed charter schools so i always thought it was the divine justice that i was the state's superintendent guys the voucher. given that, i really see that charter schools can in fact be part of a larr school strategy, however is state

superintendent i really focus very hard on raising the bar for all children enclosing the achievement gap and really building a strong viable system of public education, first by ising expectations from being clear about what we want our students to be able to do so with an mayport committee teague is the same in a rich communitx. i worked hard and writing the standards to a new system of assessments and curricula mods and as i was leaving we were really working on a new vision for an assessment system which really dealt with the whole issue of multiple measures. we worked hard to build the capacity of the system to meet these expectations. we redesigned arolt human-resources them for the profession, redesign their policies from equipment to retirement. we advocated for a new vision of the teaching profession around differentiated roles and responsibilities than differentiated compensation systems. we tried to help districtsnd schools that needed it the most by developing a set of

diagnostic tools and technical assistance tools and developing turn around teams. reengage the community through a variety of different community engagement activities and we try to support innovation and experimentation in many of our policy issues. we also worked hard to develop a fair and incredibl accountability system and we were run of the first-aid to put in value added measures but as state superintendent i did not focus enough on the power of these new emerging technologies to make our public school syst more effective and efficient. for example, how new media can indeed students in learning and how to convert a 19th century analog system of public educatio into a new digital learning environment and quite ankly that is one of the reasons why i came to the corporation for public broadcasting. this cpb phones productions for

educational content on line, on air and in the community. public-service media group broadband should be in every school in our nation. alarcon tents is a trusted source of information for parents, teachers and communities and their educational materials are motivating engaging in our high quality. i believe that we integrate its public-service media, which for example can provide multiple representation of difficult concepts into the curriculum, we can do a better job of motivating, inspiring and helping poor children. my mission is to integrate public service media and to standards, aessments, teacher professional development and linker content into database systems where teachers can in fact use this content to customize the structure for students. we will be valued a we are a valued partner in using this new emerging technology and i welcome the opportunity to work

with public schools, charter schools or voucher schools in this endeavor. thank you for the opportunity to be on the panel. >> okay, so we are going to jump in and put our panelists on mahat stevens talk about some of these issues that have come up. let me start with you kevin. you made the case that charter schools and the voucher idea with accountability. we will talk about accountabilitx but one big distinction is that in a voucher system private rigious schools n participate and charter schools cannot be religious though isn't that a huge sector to leave off of the table, that families might want to choose? how do you think you and progressives think about that? >> i think there are personally remain legitimate issues of church and state separatio i know the decision brought a lot of ground that but that doesn't mean public policy ought not to continue to respect this

sort of historic and i think very why separation of church and state in the united states. we have had a robust system of faith-based education for as long as basically there has been a country, because we have the very robust system of faith in the united states. we have a pluralistic society with many institutions that have resources and are able to give parents those choic and able to subsidize the cost of ligious education so i am not sure, there's no reason for me to think that that is going to change nor that there needs to or ought to be a new infusion of public funds in the service of religious instruction. john. >> i totally disagree. first of all, there are certain children and i think those of us who work in this field, and many of us do, there's certain children who arenlgoing to be saved by a faith-based school.

my goal is not to put children in faith-based schools. my goal is to put children in the schools that work for them but i have literally hundreds of conversations with parents and children who have said t me, if i had not attended that school, i would not have survived. i was going to join a gang and drop out and i probably would not be a life. ..

>> in florida we have a pre-k program where 100,000 kids take taxpayer forms, and they attend faith-bad pre-k programs. same thing in new jersey. should that be unlawful and not allowed? i think we have to be csistent across the board, and these are schools that are very unique and eliminating them you take one of the most vital tools to closing the achievement gap off the table. >> so let's keep pushing on this. susan, i want to ask you about this. >> sure. >> now, kevin said there's been support for these faith-based schools for a long te, and that's true, although we do see in the catholic sector particularly a real crisis, 300,000 students displaced since the 1990s because of closed schools. our two minority members of the supreme court both went to catholic schools as young people, and yet we see catholic

schools closing. the dellman decision famously decided there wasn't a constitutional problem with the vouchers going to religious schools. there was an issue of parent choice, there were lots of choices in the system, what's your personal view? do you think as a matter of public policy catholic schoolses, other religious schools should be in the mix? >> you know, a a matter of public policy, i really believe in the separation of church and state. and the way it worked in the cleveland voucher program and still works is tha the money goes to the parents. and the parent theoretically chooses to go to the parochial school. but the reality is to make sure at that choice is strong, we send the check to the parochial school, and the parent comes in and signs it. but from a picy perspective, i really believe very strongly about the separation of church and state. however, i taught at a catholic college for 14 yearsnd worked very much in my younger life

with the archdioce and the parochial schools and they have played an important role in serving poor kids in poor communities. and i think that we, i mean, if i were a district superintendent in a parochial school that was having financial difficulty i my district, i would really try to work very hard with them to assure that we could form some type of partnership where a religious instruction was not taking place during the day, but they can be absorbed into a public school system to keep the parish community school element going and do something. first of all, i think it would be very cost effective for us to do so because when a parochial school closes, the students usually go into the public school system. somemes there's overcrowding, sometimes new schools haveto be built. so i am for forming a partnership i terms of what works. >> okay. you know, i told susan ahead of

time, i had to admit, i was trying to see if she would do a jane doe and renounce the zelman decision. she hasn't quite done it yet, you haven't quite renounced that decision. >> right. >> you're on the line. okay. what do you think? when you look out at this particular crisis in catholic education happening in many of our cities, we literally have good choices that are disappearing. what are some effective ways to try to keep catholic schools alive, and is that a reasonable goal of public policy? >> we can't reduce this discussion to the advanment of religion because that's what the opponents of vouchers do all the time. th use the separation of church and state argument often, and in cities where we work parents have often said i thought i coul participate in the voucher program because the constitution said the separation of church and state. doest exist in the constitution, and the whole idea comes from a letter thomas

jefferson wrote some baptists where he talked about separation and church and state, and we somehow incorporated that into our lexicon about school reform. this isn't a discussion about advancing catholic schools or religion, this is about advancing optns. if they choose to put their child in a religious school, amen. if they choose not to, amen. this isn't a catholic, protestant, oreligiousebate becauseven in wisconsin there's an out clause for those who feel so put upon to have religion put on them, they can opt outover it. very few of them have taken advantage of it. you've got to put on shoes and touch people. one example was last year i believe in july louisiana had signed a new law to createn opportunity scholarship for students there in a six-day period we were able to t 1,088

people to sign up. you have to get out there and do it. guess what? this past weekend we had to reach out to parents again in new orleans. not one parent said, you know what? i want to return my voucher to you because president obama forced charts. no one said that. no one said am i undercutting the financial resources o the public school system? these are parents whose children were being undercut by the publicchool system. although there are good public schools in new orleans. so much of what we debate is really cocktail conversation for the materially comfortab. that's what we do. but when you talk to people who have to live wh the consequences of public policy decisions paid by people who aren't on capitol hill, it looks very different. so we spend time with the sole to sole method, participants have bn great, and these are parents who voted for the president, and yet none of them have said, again, i'm not going to participate because the right wing is behind this.

so long as we give their children wings to fly away from schools that don't work and to land in schools that do. >> all right. you mentioned that a lot of opponents use the church/state question as a reason to oppose vouchers. another reason that comes up, and kevin raised it, was the issue of accountability. though private schools are accountable to their families, to people who payuition and choosing to send their children there, there is not accountability in some of these voucher or tax credit programs in terms of testing, in terms of reporting, accountability that we have in mind when we think about the no child left behind act, things like that. let's start with you, john. how do we address those critics? is this an area where we need to do a better job? >> absolutely, the answer's yes. it's a very legitimate criticism of the private school choice movement, and there is a healthy debate within that movement about this topic. my own personal opinion and very strong opinion is that if you are a private school and you

want to take a certain number of children on a publicly-financed program whether it's directly through a voucherr indirectl through a tax credit, if you take a certain number of kids, then you're going to have to be accountable to more than just the parents. you're going to have be accountable to theaxpayers, you're going to have to be accountable, fraly, to the legislators that created the program, you'veot to be accountable to the public. there's fiscal, and there's academic. and believe, again, if you take a certain threshold of ds -- and there's lot of debate as to where tt threshd should be -- you mus show to the public that you're using the money properly. it's not hard to do. i mean, you should do an audit your books or a financial review of your books and, you know, i think thas probably the easier thing to tackle. the harder thing is academic accountabilitynd transparency. i believe personally, and there's a lot of debate on this, bui personally believe, again,

if you take a minimum number of kids, thenou need to demonstrate, again, not just to the parents, but to the public that you are making a certain amount of progress academically with those parents. and, you know, how we implement that we have to be very, very careful about because you don't want to overregulate or impose things on the private schools that will, you know, take away the uniqueness that have made them so effective. but i think that's something we're going to have to start doing if we want private school choice to be on the table as one of these delivery options. >> okay. so let me ask kevin and then gerard abo this. we came out with a paper three or four months ago arguing that in the context of voucher school accountability we should having? of a sliding scale. the more public dlars a private school gets, mainly that means the more kids they're serving in these programs, the greater the responsibility for transparency and accountability. so if you're a school in

milwaukee where basically all of your students are on scholarship, you are, in effect, a public school and you should have to take the test and be very transparent. if you're a sidwell parent you've taken two kids on scholarship, those requirements should be much less. you shouldn't have to be transparent about how all t kids are doing on standardized tests. does that solve your concern around accountability? >> it seems arbitrary to have some number and say if a student is at a school where that number isn't high enough that, therefore, there's no accountability about whether or not they're learning. i think on some level this starts to become kind of a semantic discussion about the distction between a private and public school. private schools, quite properly, are going to want to retain autonomy in ter of curricula, whether or not they want to have a religious element in their instruction.

again, there's a role for private schools, and i think they ought to hd on to their privateness, if you will. but the quid pro quo is you don't get to take large amounts of taxpayer dollars and remain private at the same time. and i don't think that we can rely on merely on parental choice as our marker that a school is of sufficient ality. and we know this empireically from the charter school movement. there are charter schools that are successful in convincing parents to send their children there presumably the parents are satisfied enough to have made that choice, and yet we know when we overlay a test-based accountability system that they are very poorly-performing schools. you know, it's not enough to simply show that you're spending money properly, you need t show you're spending it effectively. and there are plenty of charter schools that, again, have not demonstrated that, and that's why we have these public acuntability mechanisms where

if they don't perform, they get shut down. you can't just wait for them to go bankrupt for lack of money. i think our obligationso children require us to intervene much more directly than that. that's impossible in a private school. again, it should be impossible. the government ought not to be able to shutown a low-performing private school unless it, you know, you descend to sort of a level of criminality. but it also means you can't have enough, as much accountability as you need. >> okay. though it is, you know, it should be said that several of the voucher programs do have public accountability requirements, milwaukee added some new regulations, somthat were focused on testing and countabili, some in other kind of areas, and in some ways now to be able to enter the program as a private school in milwaukee it's like going through a pross that charter schools go through when they get authorized. this is such a hard one. poop participas have chosen a

school -- parents have chosen a school, but the test scores are bad. now the government or the auorizer, somebody's going to come down and say we're going to close that school, withdraw the scholarships, we're going to second guess the decisions the parents have made baud we don't -- because we don't see the results we think we need to see. >> there is definitely a healthy debateithinhe pro-scholarship side of the camp on the accountability issue. even before the wisconsin legislature passed a new law recently there's been accountability in the milwaukee pro-choice program from day one. it's amazing that people speak as if accountability was lacking or was nonexistent. surely the accountability standards matured as time went on, we learned more in 2009 than we knew in 1999, and so we grew with that, but to act as if the only reason that the program in milwaukee or even d.c. and now new orleans are all of a sudden

accountable is because the critics said i you become more accountable and if you take tests, then you're more legitimate. i'm not sure they're in any position to talk about accountability. anytime a child drops out of school in shington, d.c. and can't get a job, the public school lost money. every single time that a kid graduates and really can't figure out where to go, where to invest more money, that's a problem. i support accountabily but but real clear, for some people that means overregulation, and then a very smart way of getting lawyers involved who come back in and say, guess what? there's so much regulatio in private school it really is a public school, and, therefore, it really did, you know, offend the first amendment, and now we're going to close it. don't think some people haven't worked out some of that logic. i think accountability's important, i'm just not sure that test scores alone can prove that. and it's interesting that we can close a private school for failure but in traditional

34reubg schools we let them open up year after year. >> okay. so the point you're makin about excessive entanglement, we wouldn't have a constitutional problem -- >> yeah. because what our critics are saying is here's a rope. we'll jump so much and take so many regulations it becomes a noose. by the timee're hanging we realize, oh, it wasn't a jump rope. but we did it because it wasn't a jump rope. >> let me keep pushing. kids do he to take the test let's say in milwaukee wheree know the wisconsin test is ridiculously easy. to hide it or, you know, i go into this place and i go through the security. they know i have it. they pat me down and said okay. and they let me in with it. so that just, you know... >> security at the latin quarter padded you down, felt the gun, you produced it and they said, go right in?

>> i walked through the metal detector and they let me in. i was there for like maybe five minutes. it's getting so crowded, everybody's coming over, hey, how you doing. i'm going to take you upstairs so you can relax so nobody will bother you. i'm walking upstairs, and i missed a step, and my gun like slides down my pants, so i didn't want it to hit the ground, so when it slides down my jeans, you know, i go to stop it before it hit the ground, and i don't think you could do it in a million times through your pants that you can try to stop it from hitting the ground and my fingers like hit right on the trigger. >> you can catch the exclusive jeremy schaap interview with plaxico burress in its entirety tomorrow night, 7:00 eastern on e60 on espn immediately following "sportscenter."

>> with fifth pick in the 2009 nfl draft, the new york jets select mark sanchez. [cheers and applause] quarterback u.s.c. >> after losing four of their final five games to miss out on the playoff, the jets made their biggest draft day trade ever, acquiring u.s.c. quarterback mark sanchez. whether he and new coach rex ryan can turn around new york's 9-7 finish remains to be seen. tim hasselbeck, what are the biggest challenges facing gang green in 2009? >> the biggest concern for the jets this season is the play of the quarterback position. whether it's kellen clemens or mark sanchez, they need somebody who is going to make good decisions. this team's going to be able to run the football and play great defense. if they have a quarterback that doesn't turn it over, they'll have a shot to compete in eache. game.e a >> now on espn.com on our nfl

page, click "three and out" to see why blogger tim graham considers the jets' secondary among the best in the n.f.l.ke. matthew berry now on a possiblef fantasasy sleeper on the j-e-t-, jets, jets, jets. >> we may not know officially who the starting quarterback for the jets is going to be, but we do know this: whoever is throwing the ball this year is going to be looking for dustin keller. last season only four tight ends got more targets in the red zone than keller. he had almost 50 receptions last year. he's ninth pass catching tight end. and even better news, chris baker no longer there. the tight end job all dustin keller's. in a run-first, conservative-type offense with an inexperienced quarterback, you're always looking for your tight ends as safeties or someone that can help you keep the drive alive. once you get past those elite tight ends and you're looking for upsides, dustin keller has tons of it, that's why he's my new york jets fantasy sleeper.

>> tomorrow our blitz preseason countdown continues with a look at the carolina panthers. steve smith, deangelo williams and jake delhomme look to help return carolina to the top of the n.f.c. south. what obstacles stand in their way? find out tomorrow on espnews. >> don't touch that dial. no, no, no. we'll bring you the latest comments from vikings' head coach brad childress on their $25 million quarterback. and thrilling little league world series action. which teams won today to clinch a spot in the next round? more cash over here!

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>> continuing with you on espnews, glad you are continuing with us. after a punt hit the cowboys' scoreboard at their new stadium, the nfl competition committee has now scheduled to convene by conference call tomorrow to begin to consider options on how to avoid future problems. >> the brett favre return has been well documented, not only by we the media but also by the vikings. coach brad childress is keeping track of the number of throws favre makes in practice, "american mind -- mindful of his injuries. here's childress mindful of the

practice favre has made. >> certainly kansas city looked like they were unloading on brett when he was in there. how far is he from being ready? >> you know, pedro, it doesn't... you kind of put two things together. "it looked like kansas city was unloading on him." really he was first one in the game, and they continued to unload throughout the game. so, you know, it wasn't just something that was, hey, let's blitz the old man. you know what i mean? i mean, it was basically they blitzed on every second down throughout the game, 7-10 i want to say, so you'd have to say that it wasn't just something that was with brett favre. so the second half of your question is how far is he? i mean, he's only two series in. so, you know, however many series behind, he's doing everything he needs to do to get

up to speed, as are our guys. and, you know, i'm confident we got time and distance to be able to do that. >> what to watch for tonight when you're watching monday night football, jets-ravens at 8:00 eastern on espn. how about the first pro start for matt sanchez who is embroiled in a quarterback battle with kellen clemens. the first and ten crew debate how good sanchez will be tonight in prime time. >> hi there. the "1st and 10" crew here, dana jacobsen, skip bayless, doug and ryan stewart, the two live stus. ravens and jets face off tonight. what do you expect from mark sanchez? >> i expect him to hand off a lot to start off. with when he does throw, i just think he'll struggle some. he might throw a pick. he might throw. two but i still expect him to be named starting quarterback because i think rex ryan wants to do what they did in baltimore with joe flacco last year, start

the rookie, let him get his feet wet and put him in a conservative offensive approach. >> i expect him to struggle. prime time. if the jets are smart they'll design a couple plays to make him comfortable, bootleg. i'm expect him to try survive against this hell layious baltimore ravens' defense. >> i don't think the baltimore ravens are gunning for mark sanchez in this preseason game. i expect them to have a pretty good showing and i expect him to get the start over kellen clemens. it's in the a detroit lions stafford versus a pro bowler situation. he's a guy that needs time to learn. >> we're part of "espn first take" monday through friday 10:00 a.m. eastern on espn2, be sure to check us out. >> little league world series. international pool b. undefeated mexico taking onrnmeo winless germany.uses top second, mexico up 3-0. firs

raul rojas grounds through the right side. a run scores making it 4-0.runs make it 6-0.not this ball lined towards first. what a catch but number 26, who would move to the mound. bottom fourth, 13-0 mexico. the strikeout ends the game in four innings due to the mercy rule.res mexico 2-0 clinches a spot in the next round. >> good one in pool c between er japan and venezuela. bottom five, game tied at four. it's the groundout. nice play, the tag and throw to first, double play.six bottom six, still 4-4. that one gets past him. inni now the throw from center fieldi goes off the helmet of the runner. japan wins by a final of 5-4.

>> mercer island, washington, taking on warners robbin, georgia. bottom six, 3-2 georgia. he hits ogard. the runner on first. washington trying to at least leave the tournament or exit the tournament with one win. they're winless so far.ary:e ogard moves to third on the wild pitch. the next pitch strikes out brandon lawler to end the game.i georgia wins 3-2 and finishes pool play undefeated 3-0 and he's in the next game. >> top stories on the way, including the big day at citi field by ryan howard. and his starting pitcher was another sterling performance for the phils. how's the downturn affecting typical tuesday night dinner?

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it's back to being hit with all the stresses of work. how was your weekend? it's day one of that 3 o'clock lull. and that guy who always asks, mind if i jump in?

but monday night football is returning to espn, where adrian's moves will be making the guys in the booth say the orioles headed to machine. for the last series at the -- to minnesota for the last series at the metrodome. we will look at the orioles winning their first series victory since the second half of the season. >> all that and much more coming up right here next on o's xtra on masn.

welcome to an evening of orioles baseball. it's the first of a three game could be ease at metrodome. orioles just took two of three from the chicago white sox. don't tillman starts for the orioles, looking for it's second big league win. hello, everybody. tom davis with rick deafcy here in our masn studios. if you go back in time, this man came up with the minnesota twins way back in the 60s, but they played in the metro dome and metro poll stan stadium and will have a new ballpark in 2010. kind of interesting, during your lifespan, three ballparks for minnesota. >> i played my first major league game in in 1969, and i will never forget how cold it

was there. open our stadium. i was there, made the ball club in 1970, and i can remember the two and a half foot of snow they had outside the stadium and trying to play baseball in there was just horrible, but minnesota finally did the right thing, got a domed stadium, and then it was nice and warm always in there, and very easy to hit. it's very tough to hit when you're in an open air stadium in minnesota. with that much cold, sometimes it's town in the teens, and i just can't see them playing baseball in an open air stadium, eastern if it is a beautiful ballpark. >> between ten for the new ballpark in minneapolis. now we'll go out to the metrodome and visit with mark. >> reporter: let's rick know that's all they're asking about

here is where is rick dempsey? talking about that orioles bullpen, certainly one of the reasons for the recent success. the bullpen is pitching to answer ra of 1 on this road trip. the coach said the success of the bullpen starts with the starting pitchers, because they've been staying if the game longer. in addition to that, all the releashers now are adjusting to rules, since george sherrill was traded and jim johnson has moved into the closer role, they're all starting to get it figured out. more from allen dunn. >> it just helps from that standpoint of knowing this is kind of where i'm going to be used, so you start getting your mindset of, hey, i may be in the ball game right here, and i think that helps, as well, and right now, i think guys are doing that, and then they're just -- when they're called upon, taking the call, whether it's to go in and get one out, an inning and a third, or two

innings, whatever the case may be, you still have to go in and do your job. >> reporter: does confidence build with success? they have a different feel to them maybe right now? >> obviously this game is built around, you know, the success and you alluded to talking about confidence, and that's a big part of it, and i think it's staying, what you can do, and not trying to do anymore. that's kind of a cliche, but it really is. just work within what your abilities are.

>> to allen's point abbott the starters going longer to help out the bullpen. oriole relievers have thrown more than 425 innings this year, that's the most in the american league. that's the story here from minneapolis. now back to tom and rick. >> thank you mark. mark will be reporting during the game and also on our post- game show. time to look at the orioles starting line-up.

time now to take a a look at the minnesota twins line-up. you've watched how mauer has progressed over the year. what he is hitting is nothing short of phenomenal as a catcher. it's such a tough job and really wears on you day-in and day-out, but this guy, joe mauer, i'll tell wow what, he started off hitting the bail the other way, just taking what they gave him, never trying to

overswing. he's gotten bigger and stronger now, and now they try to pitch him in on his hands. tries to turn on the ball. he's hitting home runs, hitting wait lot 0 power. this is the first time in his career that he has ever taken off in the power direction. he is looking for pitches to pull, and maybe occasionally a pitch on the outside half. he doesn't go the opposite way and lay the head of the bat on it anymore. he kind of reminds me of somebody in our line-up, like make matt wieters, who is really just feeling his way through a good major league start already, but joe mauer is there, he's hitting home runs. >> some thing that he could hit .400, mauer, over a whole season. >> it would surprise me if a catcher is able to do that. that up and down behind home plate wears on you, and if he hits .400, i'll take my hat off to him, that would be the greatest feat, i think more so

even than tiger woods. >> unbelievable. when we come back, rick will analyze what jason berken did yesterday against the white sox. that comes up next when o's extra pregame brought to you by at&t your world continues. . hey i'm worried about mrs. lowenberg next door.

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first pitch, change-up, jumped all over it, was able to hit it out. >> reimold gets into one. deep to left, and it is gone! >> 25 runs compared to 35 runs.

how about the rbi $? 26 of 32. boat absolutely amazing. what a tear for markakis, and reimold right now. the orioles first inning, adam jones give this birds a 1-0 lead after hurting his back a swing or two before. >> i know. this was one at back.

>> nick markakis like this way the orioles are playing. >> i think wire coming together pretty good. a lot of the young guys are getting their time in, getting their plate appearances, getting their at bats, and gets what they need to get better. our pitchers are doing great. it's a long road, but slowly coming together, and i think the pieces are falling in place. >> you guys were able to get

after the pitcher early today. what did company see from him early? >> just made him get the ball up. when he get this ball down early, he's one of the best, but if he get this ball up, good things happen.

>> did you guys need a series win like this, and how much did you need it? >> it was a big day for me. i think the last couple of types out have been better. last start, the last game was a little rough, but i think throughout the year, i've gotten better and better. and today was one of those days. chad called an awesome game, i felt, and it was just one of those days where fortunately i kept everything down and kept the ball in the park. >> what did you like that you saw there? >> just what he said. he kept the ball down. made very good pitches down in the strike zone. got them swinging in the bat. many guys had to swing at that ball because he was ahead in

the count. imagine that. when you stay aheadny the count, you can try to be create itch. right there, a 3-2 pitch to jim thome, and he used up a change- up in that situation. you know when you can be creative out there with the big boys and throw them pitches that they don't expect, you're going to get pitches like that. that was outstanding pitching. that's what i like to see about this young man. everybody says he's a bulldog. i've yet photo see it. yesterday was the game that pushed me in that direction to believe there will have a lot of bulldog if him. >> there's not a lot of pressure on berken that he's going to be taken out of the rotation right now. >> well, there's a lot of pressure. at 3-11, you don't want to be forgotten. spring training is coming one be and there will be a lot of competition for those rules out there.

if you can't watch the games on masn. we'll have the call on the fan. when we come back, cave trembleys press conference. he'll be meetth with the media. that story comes up next here on o's xtra pregame ÷x÷:l:lzúzz

what is the progress no six on adam jones? >> not going to play tonight. we'll see how he is tomorrow. we'll reevaluate tomorrow. >> are you optimistic he'll be able to play in this series, or you justify don't know? >> i don't know that. i will check in with richey tomorrow and check in with jones. to me it's listed as day to day. today, he is not available. he will not play at all. >> adam says he swings real hard and that might be a cause

of it. is that reason for an adjust document him, if that's what may have caused it? >> i don't think you change at all. he's been swinging hard since he got to spring training, so, you know, that's his approach. you know, we'll miss him in the line-up tonight and look forward to getting it back in there when he's available. >> you guys waited like the plans were, right. >> you didn't want to rush him? >> well, it's not did it for me to be patient with him, because we expected that. i think it's to their credit that they progressed as well as they did to get here. mattis has come here a lot quicker than we thought based on the injury to berg i son, but we are giving guys

opportunities. i think you try to stick with them. you try to see the positive no 3459er what the just come is. you're still teaching nape learn from one another. they're all going to grow together. and they're all gonna be a part of the future here for a long time. plain and simple. >> and how is matt doing breaking them in as a young guy himself, your catcher? >> wieters? >> yeah. >> i think wieters has done fine. i think he'll do better next year. i think this year has been a cup of coffee for him. an extended cup of coffee. you know, he's getting to go around the league again. i think he's been a very good student of the game, and his demeanor has been positive. i think he's done very well from where he started. >> minnesota twins have won 10

of the last 15 games against the orioles as you note. the era registers about the same. the batting average, .257 for the orioles, .306 for the twins, but the orioles have out homered the twins. orioles only pay minnesota five times this year. it's tillman against baker. rick's scouting report comes up next.

it's going to be chris tillman against scott baker. chris tillman? >> well, for all of you people who love to roll dice. 17 good on the comeout roll, but isn't good after you've got your points. chris tillman has given up seven hits in four of his first five starts of the season. he has only won one of those games so far, so let's see if he can turn the dice around. maybe we'll get 11 runs for him. knock out the home runs. now, that's not go ahead and knock 'em out with the bat. that's he's got to stop giving up home runs. he's given up nine so far in five starts, and making it awfully tough on himself to win ball games. you have to pitch down in the zone, especially when he's behind in the count. you can't get away with that 94 up there when you're behind in the count. so if he can just stay ahead and keep it down, i think k

this young man will start winning a lot of grounds for us? >> what about scott baker? >> scott baker, we've got to wait him out. he really goes that first time through the order. 2.75era, first inning through third inning. from then on, he has a very rough time with most line-ups. 6.46era. so we have to be real patient with him. that second third and fourth time against him. it's not how you start, though, with this young man. it's how you finish. he started the season 2-6 with minnesota. as of the last two months, he has been 9-1 in his last 10 decision. he has really turned it on, along with the weather. he's at 11-7 right now. >> the key to the game? >> we have to meltdown the m&m's. that's joe mauer and just were

mourneau. mauer leads the whole league in batting average. unbelievable for a catcher. 94 rbis already in the american league. it is amazing what those two to guys are doing. >> yesterday's player to watch was nolan reimold who homered. who is the player to watch tonight? >> well, i'm going to call another home run. michael aubrey is in the line yip now, getting one of his first starts with the orioles. i think he's going to go deep tonight. the fact that baker doesn't know who this guy is, he's going to leave one out there. >> we're going to hold you to that. >> how about the minnesota twins though. they're in third place, just four and a half games back in the american league central, but they're two games under .500. what a difference between the american league central and the american league east. jim hunter standing by with buck martinez for the play-by- play tonight 37 first of three.

we'llable back for a half hour of post-game show. it's all coming up next here on masn.