this concludes today business. and i close this meeting of parliament. : mel watt viers jon jeter and kim bobo disss the working poor.

mr. dealers is the author of a select broken the free-market and ms. bubble's book is "wage eft in america." this 45 minute discussion was part of the chicago tribune's annual printers row lit fest. i am just a moderator and the moderator was supposed to moderate and, people down, but i don't think that's it will be easy to call people down one czar twopeakers and authors present the pieces f their book and their arguments. kim bobo is kind of the east jane addams of chicago. she is the head of the national interfaith coalition for worker justic and her book, "wage theft in america," how millis, why millions of working amicans are not getting paid and what we can do about it, it is already a success. it is not an ordinary book. it has already become a kind of

a politically at. people around thd country on talk radio shows and clubs and organizations and unions have become energized by this book, whic iabout how people, like the kind of people barbara ehrenreich wrote aut in nickel and dime there being ripped off. ars second author, jon jeter. i hope i pronounced that right, flat broke and the free-market, is a remarkable writer, a jourlist with "the washingto post" and though he comes with all these establishment credentials, i think this is really a bombshell of a book, and i urge peop to rd it. it is about how globalization has stripped working people of the control over their lives, and takes us on a journey from the salmon factoryn chile

to oroc obama's chicago andt is a remarkably corrade is book to come out of this time, which even has a very good word to say about hugo chavez, a some criticisms o some of our national leaders. i strongly recommend it. what we are going to doere today is have each author make a ten-minute presentation, and our hope is that we can open this up to questions and a dialogue, and that you will all be roused enough by what these people have to s that i will have a tough job as a moderator moderating it down. so, let's begin with kim bobo who has focused on a specific and really shocking problem that, is a working labor lawyer, i see a lot of which is the way people are ripped off in small ways with the money they earn and what we can do about it. >> do t take advantage of a

fired worker w is poor and needy and. whether that worker is an israelite or is a foreigner residing in one of your towns. pay them their wages each day before sunset because they are poor andre counting on it. otherwise they make cri to th lord against you and you will be guiltiness of san. that passage fro deuteronomy be clearly indicates that there was some sinack then and i'm here to say that we have got some sin right here in shai town. [laughter] who wage theft, so what is it? wage theft is when emoyers which illegally don't pay workers for all of their work. so, two to 3 million workers are not paid the minum wage even though the lot is very clear. millions of workers are not paid overtime. in fact a conservative business

estimate is that $19 billion a year is stolen in unpaid overtime. then there are workers misclassified as independent contractors when they are really employees, and this deals not only from the worker because the worker doesn't get to the employers payro taxes, doesn't get overtime pay but it also steals from all of us and from the public coffers because it means folks don't get workers' compensation if they are heard, they don't pay into unemployment insurance so it is stealing from the public as well as from workers. then there is less paychecks which is a growing probl in this economy, so workers to get fired, ty don't get the last paycheck. if you resign you don't get your last paycheck. your entire plant closed down and they don't pay you like the law requires. that to his wage theft. then there is the stealing of tips whipper guo there are major

lawsuits out against the company'sorce dealing tips. i was at myavorite chicago restaurant,ank noodle. any of you all been there? go, good food. the corner of argyle and broaay. so i am going to put my bill on the credit card, and i was going to put the tip there. i rn to the waitress and i said, if i put might sit on the credit card will you get it? no. well, she won't get it and neither will lots of other workers lindbeck my friends of the department of labordvise me, just put your tip in ash because the workers a more likely to get it. do you know those little cup said starbucks and duncan donuts. don't assume those workers are going t get it either because their major lawsuits out against both of those companies for taking some of those workers tips. then there are the day laborers to work all day and don't get

paidt all. so, these are the major ways that i have to tell you tt every time i think i have heard it all in terms of workers not getting paid, i hear a news story. i heard the story just a couple of months ago about hannah caused her keys service in abilene, tex that recruited folks up for a working in a turkey plant in iowa. they recruited mentally disabled man to work in this turkey plant, ship them to iowa, house them inn old rundown schoolhouse that didn't have a heater that worked, and iowa is a little like chicago. we need heaters in winte so they blocd up the windows to try and keep the heat in the place, and then they deducted $500 a month for room and board and another $600 a month for kind care, rulting in these

workers working full-time at the turkey plant, getting paid $60 a month. that too with is wage theft. so thenheuestion is, if you can agree that we have goa cris in wage theft and that it is not somewhere else, it is right here all around is because every study shows that 50% of restaurants are stealing wage from workers, 60% of nursing homes, landscaping is notorious, residential construction is notorious. it is right here with us, so if we agree we have got a crisis, then the question is why? how come? tewelli think it is a variety of factors. first it is clearly greed which is nothing new but it is greeted with virtually no pushback forces again i so let me just quickly ouine what i see as the major pushback forces that i described in the buckine against wage theft. first, probably the most effective pushback force is a

union. if you have a union in your workplace were probably not going to have wage theft. the problem has fewer than 10% of workers in this nation are in unions right now. so they are not providing the pushback that we need, which is why by the way interfaithorker justice is such a strong supporter of the employee free choice act. illinois is not in play, but there are a number of states to pl, so if you have got friends in the louisiana, arksas, colorado, nebraska, maine, pennsylvania or indiana talk to them about the employee free choice act because we need more unions. the second pushback force ought to be had the ethical business counity because ethical businesses are undercut by employers that steel wes and put them at a cpetitive disadvantage. althou in my experience ov the last few years, the ethical

business community is missing in action on this issue. they are not speaking up and they are not taking the lead and if any of you run ethical businesses i hope he will step to the floor because we need more ethical business is pushing back on this. the third pushback force our workers centers. there are about 200 workers centers around the nation that are kind of like a settlement house of the turn-of-the-century or like the jewish labor lyceums or the catholic labor schoo from the 30's to the '50s. they are drop-in centers for woers who haven't gotten paid find hp and support. that is actually how i learned about this crisis in wage theft, because we have about1 workers centers affiliatewith u around the country and the number one problem that we see every day is workers not getting p@id. these workers' centers are doing incredible work. there is one here in chicago that is affiliated with us called rise chicago.

every day ey see workers who have not gotten paid. last year they saw workers from 200 different restaurants in chicago. not a sgle group of workers had gotten paid overte in chicago for their restaurant work so again it is a huge crisis right here in our backyard. the next pushback force, our trial attorneys and i have to say nobody really spea all that positively about trial torney tha they are carrying a lot of the weight on this pushback force right now. 2007 there were 7,000 cases filed in federal court under the ir labor standards act and all but 151 of them were done by private attorneys, so they are really crying the freight on this issue. there were 62 different lawsuits that walmart finly decided to settle right christmastime, december 24. they are going to end up paying rkers between $30,600,000,000

in unpaid overtime. they made that decision to pay that over time because those trial attorneys filed suit against walmart, so the trial attorneys are doing a lot of the pushback. thproblem with trial attorneys, and some of my best friends are trial attorneys, is you, if you have not gotten pd $200, you know, it matters to you but it probably isn't enough for a trial attorney to take your case,hich is why we have have a strong federal department of labor that is really stopping in detering wage theft and punishing those who steel wages. so i have actually a fair amount of the book, several chapters on how we create a vigorous department of labor that can really enforce the labor laws. we have kind of a plan at interfaith work for justice for tis, so let me tline quickly in my closing couple of minutes at we are recommending that folks do at the department of

bor. one, they have got to get more staff. they have 750 investigative staff to protect 130 million workers. that is the one in 753 workers. there are just not enough cops on the job here so we have got to get more enforcement staff. certainly they have got to work with these workers centers and community groups around the couny to enforce the law. three, they need to put information on the web site about employers that steel wages because you and i need to know because we need to make some choicesbout where we do busine but we can't do that because you can't find any information about employers dead steel wages. finally have got to make meaningful punishments for those who steel wages. right now if an employer steals wages most likely, most likely they won't get caught in terms of the department of labor but secoly if they do get caught they are going to endp paying 50 cents on the dollar what they owe and the first place of some unethical business leaders think

hey, this is a good busins plan. we have got to change that and make meaningful penalties for those who steal wages. let me close by saying the good news about wage that is unlike many of the problems we face at the nation like koury going to dealith the banking crisis or how are we going to get out of iraq and who knows what else we are going to have to do in the middle east, this is a problem we can solve. we know what to do about stopping in detering wage theft, so it is not rocket science to do ts. and it is something that each one of us can be a part of. if you live heren chicago, if you live where there is a rkers' center there on a regular basis going to employers in insisting that they pay workers the get on our e-mail, action alert list, by saying danny in the back, who was waving his hand back there. the guy with acute hand. and get on their e-mail and we'll tell you about actions need to do to assist employers

pay. when you hire somebody, asked how they a going to pay workers. i am justaving some work done on a deck and i have got a bunch of kids. i ask each one of the bidders, how doou pay your workers? one of the guys said to me, what do you mean? it is not aomplicated question. how do you you pay your workers? abduri little back in 40 frantisek i think ion't want yourusiness. i don't think i wanhis either, right? you know, i ask the people are paid. ask if the wait staff will get the tip and then if you a not sure, put it in cash. then, when we introduce legislation this fall to stop the wage theft build the interfaith worker justice is going to introduce, i hope you will work with us to get it past. we can stop wage theft. thank you. [applause] >> that is wage theft which is

more than head a book. is your invitation to take political action and it is that how to kick right inside of it. it has already become a political event in this country and you shld by copy of it. our next author is jon jeter flat broke and the free market. i don't know if this book is as famous as cp haass but it certainly deserves to be. it is just a remarkable rate. i have never come as close to missing and reading a book as they did last night readi this. there aren't many books public policy books and the world that can take you from a hot romance here in the u.s., a whole chapter on this po the salmon industry in chile and it makes sense ayou are rding it along. there aren't many books in this country that take us to nur own local congressman bobby rush to have a good word to say about hugo chavez when the author worked forn establishment newspaper like "the washington

post." so, theris a lot that he has to say. there are wonderful lines in this book. i wish i could read some of them but i think he will for us. thiss jon jeter, flat broke and the free market. [applause] when. >> thank you. first of all let me say what a tough act you are to follow. i want to pick that up as soon as i lve here. let me say one other thing too think which is i am no longer with "the washingt pos" i leftour years ago, but let me sort of just talking little bit about what this book is out. my book is esentially talking about what has happed in the last 25 t30 years all ove the world from chicago to sowe to buenos aire tbrazil and so the things that with cam talks about, the wage theft, these are the things we see everywhere. receive this rising inequality everywhere and in south africa,

hereiously. wages are being reduced and prophets are growing. we see couries spending less and ls oeducation with. actually about a quarter less thanost countries than they d 25 years ago on education and that is the percentage of their gdp. and on a microlevel, what that means is why we have things like any loan stores on the south side of chicago. they are all over johannesburg, south africa. weep pay serious interest rates on their credit cards, so does brazil on its bonds. we see crime rising everywhere, so it is argentina which never had a crime proem until basically 1990. we see the dislocation and isolation of people increasingly from their unions, from falies and that is this integrated global economy haq done, at

least the way it has been molded and shaped. it is isolated people and separated us from families in unions and our elected representatives like congressman rush. increasingly estranged us from these people who are our representatives bause of course we are no longer their clients. their clients are big business. you see this sense of betrayal and south africa for instance where the african-american congress which led this country to its liberation from apartheid and pple are drawn there and so of leery of it. they still vot for him because there is no alternative but they are wary of the fact that this government has gone increasingly to the right and unemployment has risen to 40% for the most part and people are materially worse off than they were during apareid. so, why do we see these things? there ione simple deficit that we see all over the world now with the exception of southeast

asia for the most part and that is we don't make stuff anymore a we don't me stuff, south africa this may not make stuff, manufacturing is gone and manufacturing is the key to a prosperous enomy. typically one that distributes the wealth. how did we get here, and this is sort of, this is the part that gets back to neoclassical economic theory. i anot an economist and i want to go over this very quickly because while it is very technical and it also provide some answers aso how we get out of this, h these-- how wees ghaith these last 25 years of inequality, lower wages, people being sort of funnele into the service stor and w-wage jobs. of course the number one thing, opening the borders t all sorts ofxports, exported goo from abroad, that is both ten-year

cummins zambia. that is everywhere. what that does is it really sort of puts addedisadntage with the developing economies, which haven't had a chance to, to actually develop their industry, so they can't compete, and essentially what you see as i talk about in theook in a place like zambia, a southern african country, you see that they are 80% of the population, 12 million people i think it is no make less than 1 dollar a day. the textiles industry has been inundated by foreign made goods mostly from the united states and western europe. you know, this sort of a flood of imports flowing into their country. a lot of things like even second-hand clothes, things that we donate to goodwill or the salvationrmy are then packaged and sent over there and sold for pennies for a pound but it kills domestic manufacturing. this is really sort of

technical, but it is ver important and that i would say it is th an important i anything in this is monetary policy. what we are seeing all over the world binning in chilen 1973 but sort of really deep here in the united states in the reagan administration is the strengthening of the currency. that seems paradoxical if he were making the currency stronger, making it more expensive to buy abroad but what it does, andt does kill inflation which is the point and that of cose is a good thing but by making it too strong, what you do is you kill your domestic manufacturing and of course that is what we have seen for the last 30 years ishis gradual death of our domesc manufacturing base as good flow into our country that are now cheaper because the dollar is stronger and it's the flow out of our country to countries like argentina, countries like brazil all over the world, people can no longer or ford or don't want

to buy because there are artificialnflations of the price and that works both ways so does not just of korstnited states. but you see that in argentina when they have the crisis through the cracks the problems that they made their peso equal to a dollar so for every peso they printed they had to have the u.s. dollar in research. inflation plunged to zero overnight, b it also killed the domestic manufacturing industry. the third thing he i usery, its debt. not only to credit card companies charge as 30% on their credit cards, but essentially the wld bank and the international monetary fund and the u.s. treasury and wall street charges countries like brazil, argentina, mico, turkey, a charge these rates of 25, 26% on the bonds that they se to finance products, services, bridges, dams which

only serve very late, so this is another way in the game is rigged. i talk about in this-- is in the book about how essentially the whole world has become a paid day loan store. we are luning to a lot of these countries and essenally coercing them into paying as the serious interest rates on this money. so, the lasting want to talk about his deregulation, which is working hand-in-hand. privatization is the public sphere and what this means essentially is public that is shrinking the, and as a result there is a withdrawal of government from the market and what that means is that our electric bills are higher than ever and we pay more for water and we pay more for gasoline. this is true all ove the world. it is almost, so you have not just people making less money

but people paying more money for the basic necessities of life. now, what is my wle point here? my point is that wh we have seen in this integted global economy is neoliberalism, of a colonization, and in the book i start to talk about how i came to this book in a describe the conversation i had with nelson iedman, of course the father economist the university of chicago. at this time he isn california and i went to his apartment in san francisco, overlooking the bay, his beautiful apartment in 2006. we were talking about the global economy and he describes something that i never saw, that i didn't see in myears abroad growing up here in the midwest. he describes a world that was excellent in terms of the opportunities it provid people andn terms of just a direction thathe world is going in, he discovered a world i did not recognize and there's a sense of

deja vu in this conversation because six years earlier i had been in zimbabwe for "the washington post" and this was righ when robert mugabe, a great man, who went very bad, but that is in the book i guess, when he was running the country by szing farms from the commercial farms, white commercial farme and sort of beginning this reigof terror. the prime minister mf t country of rhodesia who refuse to surrender control to the indigeno people there in the '60s and fought this disastrous for for years, even when the british government didt want to. smith was thinking about running again for prime minister and i went to his home on the outskirts of her art and we spoke for probably two hours. we had only agreed to an hour but he had just been widowed and much like friedman, this man i expected, because i remember reading about him as a child when i was a child and how he seemed to be sort o this

figure. he was actually very genteel and sort of blunt spoken insincere, but we were talking and i asked him basically why he wanted to run for political office again. he said because when i was the prime minister of this country, are blacks were the happiest in the world, and this of course, this is the connection between globalization and colonialism. they were speaking for their cotituenes but friedman and ian smith, they did not see-- they didn't want to so for them, for thr people of course the onomy was gre. of course zimbabwe was great. they were serving their clientele and if you are getting free labor or cheap labor, from indigenous africans, yeah things will work pretty well. if you are charging a hut tax on land that you basically have stolen and charging africans they cut tax, things will work

up pretty well for you. if y areharging predatory ans with tse crazy interest rates, things at work out very we for you so this is the point i tried to make. obviously just from a mathematal standpoint, selling more goods abroad is a great thing. no one would never argue about that. the question is how do you get to that point? how are you able to sell stuff abroad? in other words how do you make the terms of trade work for you? that is the question i tried to answer in this book, and the real problem is not-- you often hear people tk about protectionism. i don't know anyone left, right, african, from the united states anywhere who argues for protection but the question is do we really have to charge brazil 26% on the bonds that they sell? these are the kinds of questions i think that really get to the heart of the system being very

rich agast working class people. so fiman let me end by talking very quickly about chile. there is a myth of chile that chile is the sort of robust, has this robust economy and that that is because it the most wide-open market driven economy certainly in latin america but really in the developed world. and that is not tru whatou see in chile is really sort of a harbinger of what happened after 1973 of around the world, including here. after agostpinochet overtew the government, democratically elected government, while they were planes overhead basically outside the chilean version of the white house, the bombing the pridential palace, augustus pinochet was printing right down the street this 500 page blueprint of how e wanted to

sort of reorient their economic system which is modeled othe university of chicago is economic ideals. what they did was, they treated the economy that we have now. theyreated an economy where they saw boom and bust, cycles of boom and bust, because basically what they commerce called the hot money flowing in the country, this is money in the mart, the capital markets erheating the economy and would flow out just as quickly when investors want to pull it out. there were privatizing, the word to rulating and what they saw wa this almost, this volatile economy. 17 years of bkom and bust economies, and iowanoint they had unemployment rates of 33%. in 1990 they had a-- to get rid of the general pinochet. they pulled back immedtely to this model and what we have seen in chile for the last 20 years now is a system based on manufacturing, on producing.

it is not perfect. they still have some issues but essentially while the rt of the world including the latin american neighborsere cutting money for education, there were deregulating the labor laws, chile was doing the exact opposite. they doubled the money they spend on education between 1990 and 2004 i think. they regulate the labor, they wentack in regulated the labor markets more than ever. they have at least in 2004, i think it is still too, the highest minimum wage in south america. they spend more money on the transfer of technology whichs how they created the industry. the government invested money to do the research and they created this industry which employs 100,000 people. this is the point i'm trying to make, whi is globalization is not inetable. we have made some very hard choices. people have known wt the

results are going to be and that is exactly what we have gotten. [applause] >> i would like to take a moderator's privilege of asking the first question to each of our authors and openin it up to all of you. kim bobo, "wage theft in america." as the red it did seem to me the bo is about the way the neoliberal world that jon just described is cheating on the old new deal lawthat are passein the 1930's like the fair labor standards act and you are arguing for pushing back. i wond whether you think, in today's political climate, we could pass that there labor standards act again if it didn't exist, and that maybe the problem is that we don't have the political will in this country to reect the law that we are no longer enforcing.

what do you think? >> i think it would be hard to pass somethinguite as revolutaonary as it was at the time, something right now. because, they have had frankly a number of years of sort o a building up of the labor movement, the strengthening of the engagement of the religious community these issues because they had a very vivid and vital settlement house movement. on the othand when they started in the 1930' nobody thought they cou pass something like that, so it changed very quickly and it feels to me like, we could not passomething quite as revolutionary as the fair labor standards act this moment. however think we could make some modest changes in the next year on debt. however, if we rebuild some of these institutions over the next few years, particularly if the

employee free choice act passes and making a stronger labor movement, we we engage more of the religious community, we give workers sense that frankly you can fight that cannot be crhe we could s i think a changing moment in the nation in a short period of time, several, for five years, that would allow us to kind of take the next jump which is clearly but we he to do. we are working under labor laws that were passed in the 1930's. ere were revolutionary at that moment but bone exactly for now, so we have seely got to ratchet it up we are going to improve standards in the workplace and i'm hopeful that this is that moment where we can really make significant changes. >> jon, a question for you. there were many lines in this book that i scribbled. i once saw studs terkel going throh books of people he interviewed and rking em up and i thought that was sacrilege

and last i found myself scribbling in your book. but, there were two that i am speaking at random here that i would like you to comment on. this one is early in the book, where you quote a woman or man in africa i believe his said that before globalization there was nothing on the shelves but people had loney in their pockets. now, there is everything on the shelves the people have no money. and the second line, which really struck me towards the end of the book when you quote and economists think something that seems so counterintuitive to us part of economists is saying you don't want to much money coming into your country. you want really just enough to come into-- you can use for development, job training, improving the productivity of the country but no more. i am not quoting him exactly. i wonder if he could comment on the connecdion bween this to

quotes there. thais a good question. the quote from the woman in africa, saying before globalizion, when they h more socialist economy, they had nothing on the slves but everyone was working and everyone had a little bit of money and of course there's everything on t shelves but no one has money. that is a quote that i share. that is something y hear all the timearticularl in countries like zambia or mozambique where they have socialist economies but also in argentina were isn't necessarily socialist but morwith the coal imports of the juicesf basically everything the country needed they made, and so these kinds of economies generated, they kept out foreign goods other sn't thatuch on the shelves, wasn't that much choice but everyone was working in producing these goods, so there's tradeoff there. and how that relationship abo, what was the second one?

julie, julie's economy after 1990 had one real guing principle inind, productivity. every dollar you spend, every, the entire economy was geared towards producing something. spending mey on iesting money in productive workers. production. in sounds sort of on sexy in 2009. it is not speculation, it is not gambling that their housing prices going to double in five years. it is just every day making something, making something that requires skilled labor and selling it, and so this is the connection that is about-- i don't want to make in this book any kind of ideological choice. i don't believe there is any hard fast eddie logical choice to be made here. the economy is at work are a lot messier. the combined fe-market ideals with ideas that are more sort of

inward looking, so investing money is not an idea of the free market. this is how you me an economy work. it is just sort of, the first country, we are the first country in history to be successful in making an economy work without making it productive, producing something. >> i would like to open this up to any questions of the audience the first one to tell you a little world that i've learned in law school. they pounded this into was in wchool,ever,ever, never as the lawyer in a courtroom, never never ask a question over 15 words. so, that is how you got cold starts iour law school class. keep in the gold star roland mind iould like to open it up to questions. r either cam or jon. >> i have a question for anyone of you. i am a yellow dog democrat and am embarrassed by my party.

i don't know why the labor unions still stick wh them because they were in charge of congress for 40 years and during those 40 years, the unions power went down, down, down. what are we going to do about this thing? the the question is, what are we gog to do about the declinef unions, even ough democrats, liberal democrats are in charge? i think both kim and jon's books have a lot of fodder for those. kim, i will let you go first. >> the easiest respoe rit now is that we need to pass the employee fe choice act. it would make easier for workers to organize, easier to get a first contract and punish those who booras workers when they try to organize. this is the most significant labor law change that we have

seen in serious conversation and, i don't know, decades. so clearly i think the first and easiest response is we should have the employee free choice act. >> j. >> i think that is exactly rhght. evenhough i understand it is being watered down even now, that is a law that could revolutionize how we work here, and rearrange our society in terms ofhere the power is, so i agree with him, the employee free choe act is a huge deal. >> the next questione >> we are supposed to kee it for 15 words. >> you can go over 15 words. >> wh all this money that is thrown around by people against this free choice act, i mean what percentage is it to one? and it is not going to happen. i do not believe. i think we put all our effort

into this, but i just can't see anything really coming out of the obama administration or if we don't get anything in the news. you have got to rd left-wing magazines to find out how much ofhis is going on and i am thinking these government jobs in washington must bereat, because nobodyver seems to want to quit and there is never anything in the paper about their great pensions and their health care and their kids being set up in allf this. we can all get together and talk. we are white people so we have got an advantage, you know. you know, we are ahead of the game. we are ahead of the people that work i these factories and want to do better by their children. everybod wants this. we are all human beings, but to just be good doesn't seem to me to get it. and here we are now. we have got obama. we put this big effort into

whalop that. he is going for everying we don't like. we have gotten a 12 democrats and republicans including max baucus who is head of this thing. we can't have a single-payer health care. it isust nuts and we are all meaning well but what do we do? >>ou know, i have been intimately involved in this employee free choice act. we are doingwe have got to want it religious leaders signed on, supporting africa in colorado. we have been doing religious delegations and all the swing states. i am actually more optimistic that we are going to win something then i think you are at this moment and i hope i am right in you are wrong. again, i don't thinkt is going to pass exactly like it is. but, there are some very high level conversations going on right now o some compromises that frankly seem pretty good to me. so i am pretty optimistic we are

going to get something. i have never in my lifetime seen labor, despite all the craziness going on in the labor movement right now, which there is a fair amount, i have never seen them so united rebranded bill as they have been on this. no one thought it passed the house and it passed the house of representatives. no one thought the kid get closed in the senate. it is close. i think we are going to get mething. >> i feel some of your despair sometimes myself but one thing i want to keep in mind is, come a tutt hill to climb here but if you look at countries like bolivia, this is a country that 50 years ago it wasot even a country. it was the company. have the people were indigenous. they weren't even people. they were workers, ty were asse on a ledger seed somewhere. thin are not perfect byny stretch o the imagination but

they have a president who is responsive to themow. i always say if that is nondestructive didley hopefully it is inspirational and reason to not be disbarring to the point of surrender in. >> in this digital age were only allowed to have one me question. one more question. >> it had better be good. >> i am sure it is. >> could you speak to the fact that something has happened within the last 20 or 30 years with the american public to make them feel that they no longer need labor unions, and to not have a sense of those who have rise to the managerial professional classes. they did that on the backs of the good uon jobs that their parents had etc come andel so even those who are still benefiting from unions like teachers are oen not pro-labor at all.

and, it is they are turning aroun@ or how can that be turned around because that those people will turn around, then the employee free choice act will pass because those are the people with the power. >> yeah, there are clearly a lot of very negative images of labor. there are some of which, labor hasn't alway done what it should do, right? so some of which is lor's fault. a lot of which is the fact that we have a theory aggressive business community that is having very into union culture. it has attacked unions, that, when they have owned newspapers have cut out the labor reporters. even here in chicago, with the "chicago tribune" when they talk about labor unions they call them, the leaders called them union bosses. what is that about? so we have this kind of culture that has created this anti-union thing and is folks of gotten

further away from personal experiences with the unions and th just have sort of the cultural and thenion stuff out ere, they just don't know. i have intern programs with seminary students, and will have none in the room that grew up in a union household, and they will say, what exactly is it anyway? they don't know. >> thank you all for coming. i know many of you have more questions. please cummins er authors. >> and get our books in the room next door. [applause] >> you can learn more about all of our booktv programs and offers on line at ourmproved booktv.org web site her you will find unschedule, a video clips and information on upcoming book fairand festivs.

the former a self-described anarchist and ton crop stripper talks about how are live james schaechter marryin in military-- that in building of friendships in "i love a man in uniform" from tattered cover bookstore, this program is about 45 minutes. [applause] >> i am generally thrilled to be here and supporting the wonderful institution of tattered cover books. it has given so much support to authors from all around t rld and it is absolutely delightful to be here for a second time. i do have to be candid with you. is is a the end of the book tour for me so i am somewhat exhausted, so i invented an entirely new language tonight.

am not really sure how coordinated my eye to speaking relationship is at the moment, and i am actually so tired that i read spur when of my hip chill lls in my pill case and i almost came this close to taking an ambient, which would have made for quite a mello rating, so thankfully i got the right supplement at the right time, so i will at least, at the very least i can promise you i ll stay awake. so yes, this is from "i love a man in uniform." it is about the marriage to my husband, r.e. army military intelligence officer and we will start off were courtship leads to marriage. a couple of months after moving in together, we started talking about marriage. i had fantasized about a traditional military wedding. my beloved in his finest uniform festooned with rows of manager

metals, a white dress for me and things old, new, borrowed and blue. we would leave the chapel by walking under an arch of sabres held tight by fellow soldiers and as i passed the last one he would tap my rear with the sword for custom saying, welcome to the army, maam. we landed far afield of tradition. his proposal predicated not so much on will you but what if. the jungle drums of war repeating and he sense deployment was imminent for do we had to act fast. we discuss the situation. euna if there is a war in iraq, i amoing right? and gaste turn solem. you know what might happen wh i go? so we made an appointment to go to baltimore city hall to say i justing case. i didn't have time tstag an emergence as mrs. arnie fashionispa so on november 18th, the big day i pce together and ensembles befitting a clothes conscious war bride.

head to toe black, pencil skirt, mash fishnets, rnd-toed sling backs buffed to military grade polis. i grabbed my vintage leopard print coat to cover up the november chill and we brought off to city hall. i didn't pass under an arch of savers like a traditional bride but i did have to go through a metal detector. the security guard exhibited the heart of a true romantic, upon hearing we were going to get married he staged and was for the emergency exit is that way. why on the way up to the chapel and the elevator i realized i wasn't a war bride. was a war on terr bride. i appreciated the image it suggested like i was a gore and of blood grizzling matrimonial frepa golick akeem down to a cat fight, war on terrorride versus bridezilla i wld win. i was not weighted down lace trimmed fluff and with the uncle sugar breathing down my neck, i

was motivated. our ly wding attendants great men inrange prison jumpsuits been led down the corridor with their ankles a wrists chained together. mike and i had met in the graveyard in now-mcateeretting hitched in proximity to prisers in handcuffs. someone at theepartment was working overtime on their behalf. refounding little chapel on the fourth floor. mike put his hand on the doorknob. are you ready? i held up my marriage license. ready. healed in the door and we looked around the vacant room. it was so, so sorry. worse than anything you would see on the gest vendor. even the cheesiest elvis impersonator would have taken one look at the home depot lattice arch er the altar and said, i can't bring the kids into this mess. i was glad our parents weren't there to see it. my mom would have wept.

this legs of tool that marked off ich dead-ended in a partition wall behind four rows of chairs were under a thick cloud of dust. it was what it was, a fluorescent lit conference room, not applied by the lowest bidder. we cross the threshold, our heels sank into the marin carpet. we sat on the white folding chairs and held hands what we have waited for the-- my palms started to sweat. i knew that bearing a soldier met marrying the military as well. i would have an ever-present mother-in-law and the conflict in iraq did happen the influence within a marriage would broaden furtr still. if the army was to be an attractable third party in our union the war would be for it. it started to feel crowded in that in the chapel. i had the lervousness of a new bride, excited by the flies but

with added fear. wh would the future be like for ushen we got there? did we know each other wlneeded? enough to make this work? i have almost dton's favor was someone else and backed out. was i really army spouse material? statistics lease bickinc yes, the ara army spouse is over , 95% of spouses are female in the majority of wise work but was there ally up to the task? the justice of the peace came into the room. i swallowed my fear and stepped up to the garden store wedding march. we exchanged their vows under the banks of buzzing florists lights. we signed the marriage certificate and editor named to the city registry and it was official. in sickness and in health, in war and in peas we were wed. in a click nondescript ceremony my life began a radical shift, not just fm singleton to wife but from free flying civilian

ship to trailing spells bhargava household member the packs of housing goes wherever the army spent-- census soldier. the dad became an army wife, carried the mark of bureaucratic flourish when i receive my military i.d. otherwise known as my dear card, defense and moment eligibility reporting system card. with our marriage certificate in hand, mike and i wento the issuing office at fort meade. mike said, she's here for her dependent id. the clerk shook her head and nodded, i am sorry. we don't call spouses dependents anymore. hysteria type military spouse had sficiently past of their dependents label. i passed to the necessary paperwork. my social security card, my passport, miks id and our marriage to to the gipper go from there my information will be processed and reduced to ditize code on theack of the card that can only be read by a

scanner, a detail that felt compressively and a lee rle in. yes sir, yes dears. in no time at all the clerk had entered my data and the card was almost ready to print. she pointed a smald webcam my way. straight into the camerandn the cou of three,mile. while we waid for the carto print she said don't los this. you needed for everythingto shop the commissary, the liquor store and to get medical. may not be dependent on my husband. my card started chugging out of the printer. this was going fasr than y trip by taken to the department of motor vehicles. i suddenlyas reminded of the time i posed for playboy. when i recall the experience for mike was shocked at how labor-intensive creating a pin-up could be. who knew that getting into the armours system and getting into playboy had anything in common?

both involve lots of sitting and waiting while the experts bustled around me and tried to fit me with a tplate. in 1995 playy issued a casti call for a layout callewomen of the internet. becausat the time the internet was still something of a novelty and playboy does love the novelty shoots, women of, whitman of enron, women of all of garden. i hosted a couple of online conferences in entergy bay area internet community, which seemed like a good enough qualifications so i sent them my photo and did not hold out much hope of a couple of months later, i got a call from a photo editor named stephanie barne. she said we like to shoot you and offered to fly me out to los angeles later that month. the good citizens of bunny land did not mess around. they send someone to lax to ta me to my hotel by the beach and ve me a list of preparations for thehoot.

shoah shade, moisturize, hair clean and your face free of makeup. the folowing morning a car picked me up at 9:00 and took me to playboy stuo west borat lauchon this that they had built for me a makeshift sta with a stripper pole and a bank of video monitors, ti-cats again.. they had a contract in photo read to sign. i change into a white terry cloth robe and slippers and rashawn to the makeup room. i immerged two hours later with hair, huge hair and a pamela anderson makeup job, two rows of eyelashes, eyeliner and a thick coat of oil slicked gloss over liner and faux lipstick. i could not believe the transformation. i felt like those wearing a mask and i look like a cross between in drag queen and a factory. i lted my robe and wandered around the area while the

stylist decided how to dress me. the clothec were stocked in the two-story store room with linger eight racks high. every possible configuration of fluff, lace the others, velvet and anal print. it was like peeking inside of barbie's dream closet. the style is considered by coloring and using their own esoteric professional metric chose to outfit me nothing but piles of rhinestone nelaces and valley chains, black platform sandals and a rhinestone black m.a.s.h. ruprecht of the photographer was a playboy legend which was both a blessing and curse. ..

>> we got a bag of reese's pieces cup. i'm a nervous eater. to this day, whenever i hear that, i grave peanut butter. hours later, i felt like i completed a stemic circuit. another day of the cheesecake factory.

but i waited the issues released, honors that i was part of the femme anymore tradition, finally in april of 1996, it was only one thing wrong about the photo. it didn't look like me at all. when the issues hit the stand, my dear friend deb called me and said i had to flip through the magazine four times to find you. you look le some texasld man's wife named babs. you clerk handed me my military i.d.. here you g ma'am. whoa, i had officially become ma'am. i looked down at the photo, a black and white shot floating on the white gund background. yup, just as i suspected, it didn't look like me. as the right of passage, the thought of integrate into the

army system feltowerful not just gaining t fort of my husband by the institutional might. the sense of a foundation beneath my feet felt about the nervousness i woulde asked to make. i would now a member of a team that w mor than a million strong, to me, as with other women married to military men, i'll follow you anywhere was not a notion but now a way of life. on the january day in 2003 when he received his deployment orders he was calm. had i expected him to b more exmotional? i don't know. he'd only lostis cool twice. the night he got his orders i shuffled around the kitchen in an insomniac haze bakes

cookies. i sealed thein the plastic eyed writing i loveou in permanen marker. when he found them, he came in the bedroom and said thanks. he had only told me once about the hundreds of corpses he'd seen in the first infantry division at the end of the gudf war. at the end, he was making his final drive when it ran directionally across the highway of death. the iraqi had tri to get bac to safety. mike and his soldiers approved upon the scene just four hours after the road was attacked. vehicles were still smokes. the air stank of burning fuel and flesh. mike described this sight.

amid the twisted body was silverwa, women dresses, and more. inhe back seat of the old green truck, mike discovered the body. bugs already stling into his bloody wound. the man had been shot through the templend the bullet blue out. blood and chunks of brains in the car. his face had a peaceful expression. by his side was a photoaph of a lovely women bending overext to a toddler. mike wasn't sue if the man had used the photo in an attempt to beg for mercy before he was shot i never ask mike about anything he'd seen i combat before or after. i didn't feel it was within my rightq to press him for details. womenly intuition guided me to

soothe tha pry. i expected that the my husband li many people prefeed due process mery in private. the you'lleel better if you talk about it, whenever i hear that i think, no. he will tell me what he wantso ll me when he wants to, if he wants to. but i wouldn't ask. even though i was curious to see over the wall, the one that separated my experience from s. he was part of a wor that i could not and likely would not ev known. he would be entering that world again sn d i'd be shut out. i'd kn little more about it than the pace it would span on our calldy. 365 day 52 wks, 12 months, a year a year. the big freen canvas bag lay on

the floor. mike tried to convince me deployment wasn't a big deal. after a fewonths of training, th baa battalion would start out doi a brief stint a spent the rest of the time suorting. it was a matte of logistic, intelligence, and to be their right arm. while he assured he heouldn't be in danger, i wasn't convinced. i was fghtened of him going to baghdad. who really kne athe time hw far this conflict would spread. i wish i could fit you in here he said as he folded the undershirt. technically, you could, but when you let me out i'd be so pissed i'd attack you. i was joking of fear.

fear bloed out, human was the only way i could see aroun it. i was afraid of so many things being alone. not knowing whato do. not knowing if he'd be safe. just not knowing. i gave him my small battery operated alarm clock to keep by his bedside. think of me, okay. he tested the buttons turning i night live on and off. that request interesting the temperates can get over 120 degreesver there. you're didding; rht? no. while he continues packing i he a set of his dog tags. sampd into the tags was information that reduced my husband to statisticah basic, name, social security, blood type, religion. i'm enchanted with dog tags a timeless military ccle until i remember they are designed to

function as a toe t. two days before he deployed, the battalion's families were grouped together. here we were briefed on logistical changes to emotional fallut. this was my first time interacting with other military wives, it w@s easy for me to tell the new ones from the old. easy ones sat alert taking note. while the more seasoned sat back and looked as if they heard this before. the unit frg meeting was run by volunteers. during the briefing a stern older women urges to be fiscally sensible. do not, i repeat do not rush out and by a new couch obvious big screen tv. while the younger one told us it was our job to make sure the men didn't feel threaten.

she said she screwed burned out litbulb so he'd have something to repair when he came back. i smirked. i would keep our household and man together. no assistance nded. the frg also told us as wive mae overhemd andage gaited. we shoul't feel bad about wanting to avo newspaper, radio, and television. if being the iormation loop, a self-imposed news embargo was okay. we shouldn't feel guilty for protectingurself emotionally. mike joined met in the time for t marital relations portion of the prentation. sex and intacy can be strained when a soldier returns home. the elder women urged us toet nature take it course. back at our apartment mike took

down our fireproof lock box. here's our marriage certificate he said. i smiled, i had brandished the cerpificae annncing our marriage to our parent and the moved on to new york stopping by himom and then his father's place. mi dug further. here's your power of attorney. you'll need this too. >>whats it? it's my will. he held it out to m but i didn't want to touch it. i refused. he lay it the bed. i don't kno if it was -- if my refusal was superstition or denial. but it's a srk fact of military marriage that we were forced to prepare for the end of our life together before it had even begun. [applause]

>> how'd i do on timing? that's such a downer. i'dike to read something peppier. are you being held hostage by the crophone hog. hey, dave. shouout to dave. that's whatever when my friend. i mention your name on tv, buy you lottery tickets,nd ponies. david iseployed and coming home in reasonably good shape. immediately we move. that is like being drop kicked. don't have a personal connection to the arm it's almost as if i boarded a rocket ship to jupiter. i started getting use to my old life as a stripper. which is such a bad sign if you are looking back as that as

fondness. simply because it was similar. it was a tertory that i knew. i had yearns for something familiar. so this is what happens. the lady gets in for free. in a fit of nostalgia, i dragged mike to a strip call. paradise island is a boxing join a single floor place wit smelly carpets and totally nude which means no alcohol. we dripped our $5 plastic cups up diecoke and tried to get into it. when we sat downt the bar, i could tell mike was uncomfortable. he leaned over to me and ispered i don know where to look. the girls worked their way down the bar. there's notng exciting to me

about seeingotal female dity. maybe i don't care because i have that kit myself. the sight ibeing in bed, bath, and beyond, and seeing the same kitchen you have at home. i fiddled with my fist full of singles. i hadn't had a wad of cash in my hand like this in a long time. i msed the gamblers high when you hso much money your fingers turn ack from counting out the bills on the dressing room floor. this was not one of those jly nights when the music was blasting and the impossibly hot smiling athletic girls were sprouting $100 bills. this is a tuesday night when you have to rattle your can toarn enough cash for the utility bill. the next dancer startled me. i'm open minded, you can float

any fetish by me, but i hate to see a pregnant women working in a strip club. i know they can run, they are not glorifiedgg cozy. when i see a women popping a belly in hh heels in a silver mi dress where she can sit and be a pin ya colaideds with. we tipped h $30. she senil and look grateful. in t strip club, the dance has all the power. she's the one in control. it's a lovel fantasy. one that seduc me. sire sure if the club is packed,

it's your racket. if one gets a little out of line youotion to the bouncer and it's see you later, sucker. you know customers are like trolley buses, there'll be another along shortly. but your powers only as great as your deman if you have no@ taker, you have no game. you hav templetted to put up and have conversatn with a man that has roaming hands and r material breath. mayb let a customer get closer than the rules allow. when the money is tight, you crab or you go home broke. you heard the express beggars can't be choosers, exact. whatever beauty or sex appeal u have, it'sard to enjoy it when you strip because there's a dozen sexier girls pretty every day. there's aonstant source of not

good enough. a big mouth i'veing through young bodies. men show up hoping against hope that the gls are into it. most of the time they aren't. but if you catchhe mode of good night and they are into it, they may even be loving it. that small perceage is just enou juice to keep the machine runnifg. there is somhing abo dancing that sets you free. in the smoke and neon and darkss, you have a sacred place and flow with the music. yes, certain clubs make you dance a certain way. no bending over, noouching yourself with your hand, stay 3 feet ay from the customer. within that is movement. feeling yourself grow huge and traumatic, all off from the ups. th shy girl, the slut, the

whore, whoever somebody thinks you are, it doesn't matter. even though your attractiveness that's yours and yours alone. like the cage birded sing, the dancing girls dance. it's not a discipline or modern dancers sketching theoundaries of beauty. it's the hard bargain. here's what i got, te it or leave. but if you take it, know that you are not getng all of you. the little piece and the butte fit of the moment is my own secret pleasure. my own sweet esce. whatever dirty business might happen in the audience, the performance stays pure. thank you. [applaus >> i'm opening for questions. i cerinly welcome nosey

questions. if you can cause so the microphone can come to you before you ask, we're good to go. >> my first question is what was your biggest misconception about married into the military? >> well, my biggest misconception is i was very informed by hollywood where a lot scenes are firmed in basic with a lot of yellowing. i didn't think that military peop had an iideoice. how are you doing? let's go on our dat this is awesome. i thought probably within the rsten minutes i would have a migraine. find that they have thoughtful and committed to what they do, there's a gentlens to it that's startling to me. i really was sort of expecting shades of a knuckle-dragging

ape. be exposed to that and the seriousness of heart that comes with the commitment to service, it was startling. it's been such a continuing ent oaving my worst assumptions prove wrong. something that i'm most pleased with as well. it's a lot more intellectual, emotional, and quieter. good question. thank you >> what was the reaction of those closest to you when you decided to write this book? and what was their reaction when you came out and their reaction to how revealing it was >> you know when you write a memoir, you think you can anticipate the response and you can't. of course this is aemoir about my marriage. i thought the better part of sportsmanship is to let him read it befe it was published.

understand some people are very territorial. one of my larger goa is to stay married. i thought should give him a vo. the wasn't much that he wanted changes. the are a few part that is are touchy for him. they say he had ptsd. i don't knowf he has the sorder because he never missed a da of work and became so anguishehe coqldn't function. there was an incident wh a flhbk. i know so my wives. bu we just don't talk about it. so to go publi it makes him vulnerable. he's a publishhe academic, h eats rusty nails for breakfast, he can do pus ups ois fingertips. soldiers are not used to letting

people behind the game face. he also wants t kw he went to the strip chub. you are the cool guy. . wasn't, it doesn reflect orlyn you. i think most m wouldn't kn where to lk if he wtith their we. it was fairly typic respoe. at's staling to me is this is my second memoir. and the ser volume and intensity of the responses is blowing away. this book had me in tiers. bauds it's all this stuff that i sort of thinking about, but because arm culture is so conscribed you really doollow the rules of ord,ouon't talk about sex, politics, money. 're frankbout our families and what our husbands are doing and how it's difficult for u

but there ro much th it lef out. that senf readiness and beble to handle anything and the game face leaks over to e wives as well. there's a who level of conversation that we just don't have. if you are lucky t make good friends an breakrough that ll formality and get to real friend that's gat. but a lot of us you get to a point and jus don't mt tho women. they feel le they a having that conversation with me. it going places that the and that for m -- you also don't know wt%s going to be the most rardinghing. for me the most rewarding thing is not having crafted it wl or getting good reviews, it's from the ynung wives. because the stuff that they are responding to is the rough edge uff. w do you deal with i when

he's disappoint how do you deal with the fact hat you don't kn abo the warnd you don't, you know,ere's an assumption, o of the top stresses in anybody life is moving. you do tt every two years. so you are living in this constant churn. we have this dring slogan, suck ip. suck it up and dri on. but the's so much m life that i don'teel you should suck up. because i think that ruins the feelings. if i can get through to the sk it up and feel like they ha been spoken to a frien who's been through what th've been rough, it's beyond anything that i could have hmagined. i wld say in that respond, it been positive. one negative reqponse, we've been parof the community sifce 2003. i've had graating cads dress for their wedding and take

mentorship from my husbandhen th have chosen the same branch. i feel very close to west point d feel ike it'art of my hear and soul,nd it' certainly part of my mriage. they canled i just because used to be a strper. that is hocjing to me. a writer i've been s committed to taking the issues and try to place them as possible. so making that sort of a -- platfo and overlook of let' go back to '94 and dismiss you because of tht. it made me sad. it oversdows what i had n. add first they didt, is because your book snks. i did aot of tears. i'm worthless as a writer.

and then when i found out a very, very bird cage, dierent page a day like a calendar. and then when i found out itas moral judgment i was shocked. st point it's an institution of higher learning and where we are educating the future leaders of the army. i feel that, you know, academically, it should be pod to diffent lifestyle choices and different backgrou. just because i write about it doesn't mean advocy. none of you could say i am writing a conversion dieettic for young soldiers to hit the po. that was startling. is what it is. and one of the chas in the book is about my fear of my past coming back to bite me inhe butt as an armyife.

it did. yes? >> i feel like a cat. >> exactly. >> first ofll, that's messed up that they canceled it. apologies on behalf ofhem. i wante to ask you when you set up to write this did you feel like because writing is such a delicate and weird thing. did you feel like you had to self-sense or be aware that you might do that? >> oh, absutely. i think ery writer, especially when you are writing aboour life and people in it, and you'riting about imaghnary friends or making up a fictional universe. u have people with reading i still goes aunt get true is the old lady down the street. i had a couple concerns. one if was going to write

about people i knew, i had to concealhem. i've been successful. the guy who's wife was you know she found out she washeating on her, that's the smith's right? >> every -- every time they ask me, they are wrong. all roads lead to faceboo everyone you dealt with the army is goin to find you. my former neighbor, w they were so wonderful to me he was like, hey ishis mand my wife. he didn't even recognize himself. it took him a wife. 's allor the good. what i want so freake out about what army people a army family members d't tal about. that they actually came one of the running thes and tommics in the book is instead o being

midted d limited by it, why n talk about what those restraints are. so in a way that impulse to self-censor became something of a driving force for the book beuse i was like rather than bo down to that invisib perfect army wife who only talks about acceptable thinglike kids and ripe andunteer worknd loving her husnd were country, a family. why not talk about why we don talk abkut i so it sort of becamthe snake eating its tail. it helped me roll along. one of the ways that i write the book is i have a of good friends onl th are civiln. and some of the are milary brats. if you have the opptunity to corner a military wifend ask

r anything what would you ask? i got thet of 40 questio that'c formed the backbone for the book. e ofhe major questions is your behavior policed, what can u ta about, what can y not talk about. not only was it something th wa intimidated by and intere it, it w sort o something that became very obviously than nonmilitary people wan to know about too. welways see tseies where th i som creepy general sayingon't tell anyby you know theigst thing is going too. weays have, we have that ime of sort of a censor yows dty. in a ratically diverse unit such as the military, is there something to b s for being

polite about flash topics. and alco military people profsionally haveaken an oath to sve the civilia. because it's basially talng smack about your bs. you don'to it. but it also creeps out the wives and kid and people in the communities. so it' fascinating stuff. at first i thought theyer having secret lk about the war meetings. i thought that there was the amazing think tag conversational vocal groups getting together. and i sta askiny fiends on pt. they said honestly i've never had a conversation about what we think about the war. what it ds to ourilies an deployments and the sgles and the loneliness and isolate. the is no socially speakg,

that'seird because of media type and the opinion is a callin card. if you don't have an opinion, sit down because you don't play so it wasy advantage to have th complepe rever sal. i stilltruggle. i have put myoot i my mouth so many times. i want to grade them. how bad was that? i don't know what the reward uld be for the worst but i really have spped in deep. i think that's fairly common. good qstion. thank you. okay. we're going torap u let's wrap up, everydy. ank you so much foroming. this w great. it's so nice to have you here.

[applause]

>> hi, my name is elibeth. i want to welcome you to book tv afterwards. i'm going to be interviewing neal bascomb on his new back. also i created a special unit in the department of justice to track downriminals in the america. me of the materials - >> no problem. >> some of the materials which are in here. neal, i want to arty saying that i liced your book very much. it's a very, very interesting

fast-pace almost thriller. >> tha y. >> kind ofk. hunter eichmann. how do u didou get interested? >> this particular book i remember when i wa in cogue. and in luxenburg, i had met some survivors. they had mentioned it was only til eicann was captured that they were able to open up and talk aut what hpened. and it was aater-shed moment in our understding and our rsuit f war criminals. so i thought it was a terrific narrative that had a very important and sficantly positi impact so i wfter it. >> then you decided recently to go after it. when did you start this book?

>> i started 2 1/2 years ago. i began researching and going to argentin and isrl seeing what i c find as well as to germany. i s beginning to see if i could get the mushod to open up. but if i could find individls who knew eichmann ahe time who participated with his sons trying t tck it once began to feel like i could sink my teeth int it, about a year and a half go i@ started really getting int the brass x t. and sitting down and going through the archives in argentina, israel, and germa. >> andn the u.s.

>> yes. thanks to you. hi fou the declassification was dxtremely helul for me in at lst tracking what the cia an what the u.s. government knew aut eichmann and his cape after 1945. so i take it the peason you wanted to feel o the sources of information and israeli, rael's complex service, that's beuse youantedew teal. there had been books that wer itten; right? >> whatever started a project i first look whether or n i can breakthrough ground. it's worth writingbout simply from a narrative stand point. whether as a journalist i can write new material iimportant to me. >> is it? >> y. >> it' be foolish to say no.

one o myost significant finds is i found eichmann's passrt that he ud to escape and make his way to argtina. which made a lot of news and was personally a tremends discovery for me. >> how'd you find it? >> hard work and aot of persistence. it was in argenti, i had read a file about eichmann's wife after the capturend diled a lawsuit afainst the israeli spifically ainst mossa what i fnd is the brief meione as tiny article. gerally things work, tiny artie in 1961. and i said well thers lawsuit. so maybe there's a file for the lawsuit. and i love lsuits, because

lawsuits generly compile paper. and for my perspective as a journast and htorian that's a gre avenue for me. and so we asked the argentina government can we see the file. and they said no. ande asked again. and they said come back in six weeks and file this. andinally after about six months they finallyevea the file to u e actual passport wasn't in there but the released i a f weeks later. >> well, that's interesting. let's go back to tellistene, who is adolf eichmann? >> he was many this. some call him the architect in the holocaust. he was in some the operational nager of the holocaust. was pup in charge in 1942 at

the s.s. be the competent officialn s.s. tebms. in charge of the transrtation of jews to the various concentratioextermination camps asells the individual who was resnsible for rouing them up. and so in one of his mt significant operationso give you a good perspective on it, in 1944 h was sent in tpring of 1944 too to hungary. and to round up the 725,000 jews scattered acrosshe country. and in his efficient way as possible, to have them delivered eith to extermination camps or to work camps. >> the rean ias sent is because germany had jus pi o was about to ou of hungary, becauseermany was worried that hungary would flect.

of aourse once they sent their trp into, the lger the troops came the policy and the process of rounding up and exterminating the hungarian jury -- jeweropulation. he was in the charge of that. >> he was the one who coordinated and orchestrated t plan. his idea was to slow work his way so there wasn't a great deal of protest because pple didn't know what wa going on. eichnn went in with the troops itas part of operaon or invasion of hungary, he was instrumental i it. because i was i think he arrived a few hours after the first troops did in his own convoy with the s.s. and began grounding up jews and issuing that stripped the jewish

population of their right and financing. >> and after the war what happened? >> after t war -- >> this is before you go. he is also responsible for rounding up the jews elsewhere, isn't that correct? >> y, virtually ery european naon at thti. he started in austria in immigratioin the 1938. he was rlly the -- i'm trying to find the best way of putting it. he was the individual that everyone looked to in view of e wish situation. theyooked to him as an expert. and so when the gern's occupied austria, he was there, and that's really where he began to cis teeth if you were to say it in such a wayn howo gather the jewish populion eithepeport them and then --

from everything toetting the trains to stripping them of their belongingso final when they lift and arrive. that was all his responsibility. he was responsible for knowing where to find the jewish pulation and howo sip them of power. >> a how to puthem at e poin whe they woulde exterminated. >> yes, he in essencerought them to the door and pushed them through the door. everything that happened there was off his agea. but he certainly knew what was happening. >> this book in a way has very nice beginningnd end. at the beginning tk about aan in hungary. at beginning o his operation in hundred r -- hungary, who sees

chmann, and at the end, ygu have same person testifyin the trial. kind of a huge, individualized demonsatn of what eichmann and it c sue lates the book. how did you come tohe idea o usin him? >> ofrse we know -- >> his name is -- wanted to be able to p it io a single individual'story. anhave tt story have conntion back to the end where he tesfiedgainst eichmann. because i felt like thetory was one about justice. an n only justice for pple but justiceor iividuals. and so i found zeek in t

israeli files andne that he had it testified of course at trial itself. so i backtrack hisry t the very bning. in the firsthapterf the book i intercut between what eichmann is doing and bng it down to the individual level o what it means for a young man in his -- he's 18 at the time, and his mily forced out of their mes brought t a makeshift camp and ultimately ushered on. >> goi to auschwitz. >> he has a remarkable story of surviv. th he's off the radar. there's no,f course hfothe xt 15 years he surves, he makesis way to israel, he

welcomes a teacher. and then i bring the story back to him to see what the mossad and e ordinary iividuals who participated in the operation. what their bravery and accomplishments meant to the individual. to the person. that's why i bookended it that way. >> that' goo cause the other thing we were talking about is some of the other important people who play a roll. so we start with eichmann t key operative in rounding up an extermination of jews in hunry and beforeha i wtern central and eastern europe. and then after world war ii, what appens t him? he captured isn't me? >> he's captured a couple of times. but whathe allies didn' know was that asind alreadyaid,

send down the master. body knew outsif the german fovernment reall that eichma w the operational manager. he was the one at the nexus of the holocaust. >< zekk knew that? >> he was supposed t surviv he was e of the ones that knew that eichmann playedn importan role. was he told an important naz official was goingo be in his town. >> yes, whehe was at the camp that his town spilled into in hungary, he w told an important official was to come. it was eichmann. he told them they all would @e fine. he round them up from their

own proction and all would be okay. this is classic misconcon that eichmann had planned. >> aer world war ii, basically thealls, ameri and itsallies didn't know the role that eichmann played? >> a)hey didn't know that, and b), the psuit of war crimina i would s was notoust. he roundedp obviously for the trials the key mos public figures. like -- and t rt. for instance, they had s the end of thear they had about 150 op involved in hunting down war cmils where they

had,000 to collect the terial and complex. to giveou an idea of disparity of iortance. that eventually -- eventually the americans and thellies increased nr of people goi afte p.o.w. >> war criminals. >>ar cmils. now how are you going t identify tm? >> h would y know? howould you know whahis name was and how wou you knowhat he d? >> ex@ctly. >> so eicann manages to escape. tell u the interesting tngs that you found out that are described in the book. >>e -- wedl, basically right after the falinerli he went to austria into the mntains. he decided he wanted to go back

to germany, first he is captured with the makft prison with ba wirep to his h. th wereungry and cold and keeping psoners was something he didn'tighlight. hescap that camp. he then hit his way to germany. en he was captured. foa year he'sn p.o.w. camp and he'segun to be inrrogated by vario ofcials. you also heaimultaneously hi name beginning t pop out at nuremberg trials. he was t one whonew how man jews were killed during the holocaust, and he was the operatiol manager. thisam o. not initially, but a few days

in. the reason i a able to say eichmann thought w becausef finding auto@iographies that he had written one in particular that i found in germany was about 3 pages on just his escap i is bcinating material. hescapes -- >> who herite that for? >>e wrote it for his own posterity. i hopefully will get into thi later. butere was an individl who wrote three autobiographies thin a time span of about 5 years. an i'm not talking 100 pages, i'm talking volumes and volumes not to mention his hnterrogaon by the israeli which go on to 1500 pages.

so there's an actually and ain i foundhis out with my initia research there's a tremendous amount of material that you can bufrom eichmann point the story. i ought would b a story about the hunters. but founds i got further into it that i could tell the story of eichmnnd really the dove pollution of him as a man to where he's living in this district in buenos ares. to get back to the point he escaped the camp. lived in germany for four years rightnder the nose of the british power. he sold eggs to british soldiers if you could believe that. and he me his way to argentina. >> andou mention also here

that he was shopping in a nastery and held by a priest. >> heas. the argentina end of the story and the ratines tha many war a very complicat and involvedas operatn. it was wellunded and had quite a few people iolved in it. it started with argentina, but also involveigh level individuals within the catholic church who were supportive certainly of the individuals were supportive of the nazis and did no want to see these good germans captured and put on tria so you finthat you have the

gentinaian governmt andhen foer.s. officer and agents who all worked togethe to help eichmann escape. >> so he eap, gs on a boat, then what happens? i just want to set t s for how he was fou. >> so he arrives inrgentina -- i'm having trouble saying argentina tonight. he arrived in 1950. there was a network there to help him out they got him an identity card. >> ni --xnazis -- and t govert. anthe gernmt supported companies to empyndividuals such asichanm. eas a company when he was@@

in buenos ares,o work for t company cald capri. it was the german comp@ny for migrants. he's in the reme district 900 mis from the capital. and he's wearing a pcho and drinking tea. he made several crical errors. but he brought -- eventually brout hic family over two ars after he arrived in argentina. >> his familyeaning his wife? >> andis three sons. >> who at the time were inheir earlyeens. what he didn't do is have them

change tir name. because as he later td the mossad, i uld never want my family to lie for me. even though his family had been lying for h for years rticularly hisife. eichmnn was livin under his ke nam but the sons were living in the original name. >> eichmann was livifg inhe boonnies hired the company to prott nazi war criminals. and now he's safe. let's draw theoose aroun his ne. i'd like to start with some of the more kno figures and g to people that figured him out. how about simon wiesenthal?

>> okay. heas jut a guy. he was justn individual who had survived the concentration camps. he was essentially on his own. and he h me a decision that he was going to ht down those individuals who had ct himo much pain and cost the jewish people so much pai but he did not have any sources really. he was in the simon as we know m today. he was livinin austria, he had co help from the americans, they helped him use the offis and occasionall provided him intelligence. but it was really -- it was simon working in an office. he had an incredible memory. and trying tout together where different individuals had gone. one of the first individuals that came on to the radar screen was eicann.

it became a life-changing event en someone said have you eve heard of eichmann. eichmann became hisef pursuit. even by 1948, he was sick and hang trouble sleeping because he wasbsessed th finding him. >> what did he all do? >> he intervhewed the family. he tries to get photographs of eichman. one of the thingse did is he almost manned for the fact that he was going to be on the run in the sense of he never really allows himself to be photographed than. and even his s.s. photograph that was on his identification, he had the negatives desoyed. and he td jewish individuals

in hungary that liste you will never find me. you will never find me. and so one of the critical things was seeinghat th individual looked like. and it seemed rather -- first ey didn't know if he w alive or dead. they needed to get tt. simon began tracking down dividuals who knew him during the war and iparticularhat was happeni with him athe end of the war yes, heas still alive his wife tryingo have him declared dead, and he foqnd out that application was done essentiall to stop the search for him. and ihink -- >> and dhat of course confirmed his suspicises. absolely. you're not going to stophe >> right.r somebody who's dead. and it confirmed t him that he was still alive. and the third thing he did was

although he wn't instrumental he was invd in the discovery of a photograph of ehmann that was used from 1948 all the way into the operation i 1960 where the mossa was after him. >> sthat was critical @hoto. a ce from one of the eichmann >>es, had several. most o them in hungarq. and when there was a what's call a roeo agent thatim and various individuals invold with the israeli sent to whoo-women and find the picture. :

other nazi hunter. >> host: this is an import moment but we have ttake a veryhort break and we'll come back and binish finish up wh the nazi hunters and the hunng of eicann which is a very interesting book by neal baomb. >> torrow night onooktv it

is former house speaker newt gingrich. booktv's afterords. this ielabeth htzman, foerongressm involved wi naere ins i ameri interviewing nealascomb, the authobf theryntesti, exciting book called "hunting eichnn," a brand newoo i eoyed it. we werjustalki about rowing theew around eichnn'sick. he esces from eure, the

master is hmer called m, the man responsible for this trading the exterti of the wish@@ in hgarq and austria and oth coies, and he is i argentina. wa talked about wienthal. he ha been involved in trying to give it a photo. weinally hae a photo of what eichmann looksike. eichmann has managed to li every but he safely in argentina, and we wan to talk about otr nazi hter, a see wh his role is in. >> guest: very briefly on him because he is largelyorgotten that he was ve similar to wiesenthal he was a survi right aft the war. he made it his life's work to go after war criminals and h w invoed withiehal. sotimes they work hand--han and o tes they we totall sarel

he was als conneced to the israelis, and eveually, you know, with wiesehal, just to wra5 1953 they had kept the hunfor eichmann alike and they d pt orch burningssentially that e need to be fou but they hit a briall an eyh wsed and unable to sledand they final just hado basicall advocate that twen't g to find him. so, ttas by 1954. so ty ehmann-- who is do we have nine yrs after world war ii, a brick wall. echmann is a maert killing jews and is saved in argentina. t then e have a very courageo west german prosecut the comes into e picture.

basically, he very instrtment in lighting the fire under the israe government in geing eimann, giving the isrlis, who had the resources, and the capability to after h. so tell us aboutauer. it is a fascinating story. fritz bauer is not jewh. >> host: fritz bauer is wish, yes. t he is how it came t and this is one of the most scinating pts about this story i think because it does invoe aot of ordiny people who ended up getting eichmann captured. it started with the young woman named sylvia harman, actually argentina, who was ding a young man named nk eichmann and qnbeknownst to here was the son of adolf eichmn. sylvia who w the daughter of a camp survivo who had come to argentina, to start a n life.

his naee was lutr hermine he was he u wis yes. ha happens is she is dating him and nick comes over to dinner and began spouting off this hate speech essentially that theermans would have been better o finishing their job with the jews. the relationship between nick and sylvia breaks off for obvis rsons but-- hes lf jewish in she maythat never kno becse as you mention in the book, the family dn't,idn't consider itself u.s.. >> host8, the family didn't aonsider itself jewish. it had largely abandone the faith an didn't mention it because necessarily to mention are oth parts, sometimes wases no helpful. although they did have, buenos re has a arge jewish population a community, but there was also the opposite side of it.

>> host: a big nazi polation. mewith a family to a remote district. or father is actually bld and one day she is reading an article for her fatr in the argentinian newspaper, the german art and tinia newspapering comes across the me adolf eichmann, because again you have to realize, though yes managerid the nuremberg trials that eichmann's actions. he was not a huge nam even ben in 1958, so she res thap an individual named fritz bauer, a german prosecutgr is going after war criminals in germany, and he was one of e few. germany, like most the world wanted to sleeperhe rug what happened in the holocaust, and fri bauer w not going to let it rest. , sylvia eer father, nick

eichmann, coul it possibly b he mentioned about have the geans should have finished up the js. nick had menoned that his father was an officer in the german army and they would make a connection, so the right to fritz bauer in say, i think we know where adolf eichmann is. thisegins an ateur instigation by this young woman. >> host: this is really the beginning, and it happens totally by happenstance that an article in the nspaper, a young woman w was not brought up aa jew, fathersave wi, read hisrtible to blind father and puts to into togeer and i commend, the man i've bn dating may be the son of this war criminal? really the news begs. hook >> guest: what is fascinating is they will send this information. if our didn't have that ny resources on his hand to be going after him because the

government was not interested so he has luther hermine his daughter sylvia began an investigation of this war criminal and so they go to buenos aires by train and began, and sylvia goes to the house asking a lot of questions and meets, who iadolf eichmann, and tries to figure out who the relationship is with neck. >> host: she goes byourself by his house, his house. hoping to see the father get a better sen of whats happening. >> schiatica description from baudr, what looked like, what sounded like, all the information incidently whh i did not mention that wiesenthal and friedman had providad, so the connections began to follow throug and, she meets an old man in his 50 and he says i am nick's

uncle, but nick addresses him as his father, so so we talids and instantly tells, sends a letter to fritz bauer saying, i am pretty sure, i am certain actually that this i adolf eichmann. >> host: doesn't she said also that he has this nasty boys, just as bauer said? >> guest: a horrible voice and very strident and not a pleasant individual. so fritz bauer has this information but what is h going to do? he asked his government whether not, quietly as this government whether they go after war criminals but we have known by this time that efforts to go after mengele coup was purportedly an argentinian. >> host:e was the doctor at auschwitz who would poinft or right, sending the jews either to their death in the ovens or to death by war. >> guest: correct and what happened was a very public announcement that they we

trying to find mengele and mengele disappears, so our does not want history to repeat itself, with eichmann, so he makes a rather remarkable, brave, gutsy potentily stupid move by going to the israeli mission because they didn't have embassy at thatoint. the israelith head of the israeli mission in germany and said, i think i know where adolf eichmann is. here is this information. you should go andet him. you what we have to understand about the mossad, the mosd and the israelis ao warned looking for adolf eichiann. they have a country to build an the country to protect. and soh their focus was on survival and not on the past. so, ts came as a bid f.a. what do we do with this information that is the harel, the head of

the mossad finds the information and ys im going to lknto it, so bauer commits treason by sendinecrets to the israelis, and isser harel agents what is i would, i think generals the would call a perfunctory investigatn. he sends one individual, one aent to buenos aires who takes a look around the neighboood where eichnn is reported to have lived, and writes back, right back to harel that there is no way that this overseer, the destroyer of the jewish people could possibly live, in this as he call that wretched little house in an outlying district of argentinians. >> host: byhe way, just to set the scene properly eichmann s come back to buenos aires. i gueshe feelsore comfortable that no one is going to find him so he is back in planas aires in the mossad has sent someone to lookny says

this is a wretched house, such a powerful persoand destrod hundreds of thousands, millions of jews. how can he be living in this way? impossible, can't be eichmann. this guy never goes to find eichmann to see him. never judge a boo by its cover, right? >> guest: that is what they say. >> host: it can't be eichmann. he can't be living there. sohen what happens? >> guest: this information is sent back to tel aviv, to is the harel, and bauer says i am pretty sure this is the adolf eichmann. here is my source because he was protesting hermine initially. you send a agent to this outlying area of they live now hundreds of miles from buenos aires, to meet them, to tk to them and see what they know so harel sends a police investigator to buenos aires, takes a train hours, ovnigh

train to this tiny town in the ddle of the argentinian lyndon nce down what this old, bld, have to and it is like, this is where m finding information abt adel ehmann? this is not possible, but meets the doctor who is condensed from the doctor that the information may be true. long story short, they have the hermine's to an amateur investigation. it is not the mesab at this point. >> host: by the way there investigations wervery good. >> guest: ty did a better job at the binning and they were convinced that they had the individual. that said nothing to do with the money, but they went back to gentina, bac to buenos aires, looked into ll on the hou, where they got the water from,

found a couple of names, but then wrote to is the harel and said, we need more, this is costing us money. he was a half employed lawyer at is point, and so they were connecti tse investigations and they needed someinances. harel, for one reason or another did not believe that they knew what they were doing. nor did he believe that this was eichmann, and so by mid 1958, the investigation is once again shuddered. >> host: by this time not only has sylvia by yourself identified eichmann and not only have they found that the, and they a also found that the gas utility, water, gas or electricity was registered in the name of the ricardo clement which was an alias. it was the alias for adolf eichmann, so they found really

the critical facts. >> host: >> guest: they had everything anyone needed to go after him. >> host: so then what happens? >> guest: then what happens is bauer, who was the bulldog prosecutor, goes back to is really what more information. yet actuall found, and again to this day we don't know where he got this information, but he had information, which basically outlined everything that was true about eichmann's escape after the war, where he went, how he got there and to help them, where he worked in argentina and now what alias he was living with. >> host: didn't bauer go to israel with this information? >> guest: dower this time, he didn't want to write it down and flew to israel and actually got the attorney general of the

israeli government to walk into a room with isser herel and say go ask the nearest brochure. he will be able to tell you where adolf eichmann lives. this is ridiculous. you need to go back, you need to take this seriously and this was really the moment that catalyzed the operation that the mossad operation that ended up with the capture of the nazi war criminal. >> ht: it took a very courageous westermn prosecutor. it took these amateurs, these ordinary people in argentina, puttg two and t together and willing to do the dangerous work, going into eichmann's house themselves and then checking records abo eichmann and getting this information to uer and then finally the pressure on the israeli government. >> guest: what it also took was time, a lot of time, too much time.

so that eichmann at this point could have disappeared into the woodwork. they just didt know. and, tt is in a sense what happened. they have a location. they knew where he lived but by e time the mossad began their own serious investigation and sent an individual to argentina, eichmann had moved. he had gone, and when a nazi war criminal moves, he does not leave a forrding address, so how are they going to find him? >> host: so, how did they? >> guest: this begins i would say, here were only halfwayo the book i think, but it is a fairly iolved story but this begins theossad end o the operation and i think it is important to highligh the fact that this is an thief mossa as we again like wiesenthal, this is not the mossad that we know of today that has a sterling reputation in their abilities.

this was a young spy agency. they were small, they were irly undfinanc. the tactics were rudimentary at best, but they were very dedicated, very focused agency and had an incredible leader under isser herel. launching in operation that is 9,00miles a way that is in a country that not a friend of the jewish people largely, that is against an enemy who was in the ss, no surveillance techniques, has hhdden successfully for yearsis potentially dangerous, it is dangerous and finally if three opations and one. you have to find them and capture them. two you have to contain them until the point in time for you can get him out of the country. you have to get him outf the country at all without anyone

knowing about it, so this was a major, major operation that the mossad had never attempted and that is why do you have the situation which i find remarkable, was that the mossad sent their leader, isser herel and they send their top individuals, too, three, four, phi, they all went so the israeli government, led by ben-gurion had decided that ts was an instrumental operations for the israeli state and there were going to pour these resources potentially disastrously. >> host: before we go bause this-- iust want to take little digressio to two of their countries and the roles they could have played by didn't. when is t united states, which apparently the cia and was apparently advised by at least

the west german government, in the eay '50's, about eichnn's alias, ricardo clement and that he was in argentina. is that correct? >> guest: the cia-- >> host: and they didn't tell anybody. >> guest: the americans and the west germans did not have clean hands of this. the west germans in my opinion and the facts largely knew where he was. the west german agency, the bnd, gave-- >> host: you mean the spy agency. >> guest: the spy agency gave information to the cia that theory is not the crinals were where they thought they were and on this list was an individual named adolf eichmann under an alias, clements with a c instead of a k, that he lived in argentina and potentially was now in jerusalem

that information was never passed on. >> host: by the cia? >> guest: by the cia t the israelis. of course as the cia said in 1954 when wiesenthal and end-- a rob i went to the cia, saying can you help us find eichmann, they did a search actually in the arab territories, what i refer to as cursory search but at the end of the day an internal memorandum stated exactly what it was. we are not in the business of war criminals. the germans, it barely enough or unfairly, the west germans were the only ones that have the legal right to do it so the cia and the americans had essentially wash the hands of that, even though they had employed a few work rules within their services. >> host: and, even more interestin i shouldn't say

more, but interestingly though the cia had a certain interest in concealing some aspects of eichmann's past and, because of his relationship, these were recently disposed documents under the nazi war crimes dispose iraq that the government had to open its files on, the cia files on the nazi war criminals and i showed didn't it, that a man called hans, who was the high level official, he was actually the one who had written the anti-jewish laws in austria and other countries, and the u.s.overnment, and the west german government we very concerned that the apprehension eichmann and even the trial of eichmann could publicize the fact that he waslaying such an important pole in the west german government and eichmann might reveal information in fact, that that was not publicly

known yet, so one of the things i think he mentioned in your book is that the cia past life magazine to remove the mention of him and a story about adolf eichmann and the trial. >> guest: and live removed it. >> host: and live remove that. okay, but it does show the difficulty of finding eichmann were two of the main countries that would have the information, basically shed their hands of it. guest: and the ability to go after him. to get the argentinians to hand them up. they were out. >> host: so here we are, the mossad now in its early stages of mossad and the state of israel has made the decision, we are going to try to capture eichmann. anit is a tough procedure. as you mentioned there were three aspects. they have got to find him, they have lost his trail, they have

got to find him, that got to capture him, they have got to hold him and have got to get him out of the country. so, in our remaining ten minutes. let's see if we can get some of these points elucidative for the listeners so that they can actually the go and buy this book and read it. >> guest: right. the operation was first find him, so they sent an interrogator, not even an investigator, to buenos aires, and with the help of local jewish individuals, who were acting as his aides, and they didn't know what they were doing but they were helping, began to, first went to dhe house and discovered head mov. so suddenly all of this inforlation that bauer had spent so muchime gathering was fairly useless, except for they

had his alias but they didn't know where he went a he could give arguably flee the country entirely. is so, @e began spying asking a lot of questions. ahari asking a lot of questions around the neighborhood, sending individuals to meet th the s come to give them a gift, to try to track where he lived, and over a period of about four weeks, and it is too long and involved an incredibly wonderfu >> host: you have to read the book. >> guest: yoe have to read the book, but they eventually locate him. i want to remind you that they are pretty sure. never, even to the night of the capture, where they had the whole operation planned, they had eight guys on the ground, two cars, they had surveyed the house for a month now, even at

night, minutes before they were to capture, they weren't sure it was actually him. it is incredible to me. theroux is just-- it was impossible to know that it was him. they have contingency plans. >> host: of course when they did capture him, he confessed. >> guest: he confessed, rather quickly. one of the first things, i am getting ahead of myself. >> host: you can get ahead of yourself because we are running out of time. >> guest: interestingly, when they captured him othe street at night and thebundled him in the car and put him on the floor below the seats, he w not responding to an questions. doou speak german? bespeaks spanish? if you yell t he will be shot. nothing from him, nothing from him. about ten minutes in the drive, he said words that literally

every one of these mossad individuals remembers, the tone, the exact phrase. he said i am resigned to my fate. and the agents knenstantly that this was in essee an mission of i am adolf eichmann. who says that? >> guest: just to give their reers or viewers a flavo of what happens, is it true that the israelis watched his movements and find out his habits, when he goes home from work and they pick him up? i mean, it is much more complicated. >> guest: more than just lino weariless so we are going to go and get him on the street. >> host: they have captured him on the stree the have pull him into the car, they are in the safehouse. now what happens? >> guest: now they have to live for an indeterminate period with potentially the argentinian police, the nazis sympathizers and who knows who else al

looking for them. they have tt in a house with is individual who is eichmann, who killed, who had a hand in killing millions of jews. and, what is remarkable, the level of disgust that the mossad agents had inarticular, isser herel said it probabl best, could this miserable wretched man really be the executioner of our people, becaus at this point he is balding, slightly stooped. he is very twitchy at this point. had really devolve from his power in 1945. and nervous and smoking and his fingernails were yellow wood smoke. yet 30 underwear. could this individual be the one who had a hand in this? and it was psychologically

devastating on the mossad agents, but they remaid in the safe house with him for roughly ten days. >> host: and then what happened? they organized a flight from el al. >> guest: yes, and this is another story which i think is wonderful, although again it brings in these ordinary individuals. you have these el al employees, these airline employees who were suddenly involved in a major spy operation and one of the great parts of, or discoveries in this book is speaking to this el al from the pilots, the navigators to th airline's stewardesses, all of them who had never spoken before to find out what happened and they were involved in this operation. they flew into buenos aires, and they had eichmann smuggled on board and might be for the ver moment where they were to depart, and now they kw wh

ey have gotten what they have done, and they are scared, the argentinians stop the plane from taking off. >> host: pretty suspenseful. >> guest: it is a moment in the bk that all of these el al people remember, this don syncing deep into their stomachs. >> host: even though you know the ending of the bucket is extremely suspenseful. the argentinians thought the plane. >> guest: there was an individual who was the chief navigator, says i will go out and see what they want. and they tell him, and i interviewed him, listen, if you don't come back in ten minutes were leaving without you, hoing the bag. we just can't risk this operation and he did it. he went out and try to figure out what was wrong. again, flying back to sylvia and her father all the way back to the final moments in the story

you have not only these professionals in the mossad, who were incredible what they did, but you had these ordinary individuals helping out in this operation that ultimately brought him to trial. >> host: of ordinary people doing extraordinary things. what about in the end, you talk about eichmann. what is the impression you have of him at the end. talking little bit about the trial and of course he basically says, doesn't he, that he is following orders? does he acknowledge in a way his guilt here? taji understand what is happened? >> guest: in the sense of the indictment he ys i'm not guilty but t man wrote three autobiographies plus all of this. i think he was, and this is my layperson psychological analysis of it, having lived with his words for so long, was that he had tried to find a way out of his glt but i don't think he could. >> hos we have t wrap up the show. to learn more about it, you just

have to read the book, "hunting eichmann." this is ben booktv's after words, elizabeth holtzman intervened wonderful ahor, neal bascomb. >> guest: thank you. >> you can learn more about oliver booktv programs and offersn line at our improved booktv.org web site. you'll find ou schedule, fbo clips and information on upcoming book fairs and festivals.

the policies and done it? the private donations? >> taxpayers. grants and stuff like tt. >> public television. >> donions. >> ei also where the money comes from. >> contributions from the owners for talf. >> the america's cable companies created c-span and the public service, and private business initiative, no government mandate,o government money for itself. >> now a discussion on the presidential election in afghanistan. with just 17% of the polling stations counted, president hamid kzai s a small lead over his nearest rival, abdullah abdullah. resultwill be announced until mid september. the dirda foundation and washington hosted this discussion. it is about 90 minutes.

>> good afternoon, thank you for joining us here at the heritage foundation. as director, is my privilege to welcome you to our douglas and sarah allison auditoriu. welcome to those joining us on c-spannd other networks as well as to welcome those who join u on the heritage.org web site. we do us the courtesy check for those in the house, that cel phones had been turned off and we remind our internet viewers that questions can beubmitted for route the program, simp addresng e-mails to speaker at heritage.org. our program will be posted later today on a web site for your future references well. hosting our discussion this morning is jim phillips. mr. phillips is senior rearch fellow for middle eastern affairs in the douglas and sarah allison center for fallen taman foreign policy studies. mr. felt says written about afghanistan, merely security issues and international terrorism since coming to heritage in 1979. please join me in welcoming my

coeague, jim. >> thas jon. [applause] last wee afghanistan held its second presidential election since the overthrow of the taliban in 2001. although the official results will not be kno until next month, it appears that there may be a need for a runoff between the top two candidates, which could be, or probably will be president ham karzai and abdullah of della, h former foreign minter. it is not clear what impact if any these elections will have on the course of the fighting in afghanistan, but what is clear is tha after the elections, the war is likely to intensify as the taliban and other insurgent groups step up their attempts to violently intimidate the afghan people and as the obama administration carries out its

new strategy for afghanistan, backed by more u.s. troops, more civilian advisers and more foreign aid. the purpose of our panel today is threefold. first to take a look at the current security situation in afghanistan and sgest coalition afghan forces can retake the initiative from the insurgents,articularly in the uth and eastern parts ofhe country. secondly to assess the elections and what they mean for afghanistan's future. thirdl to look of the developments of neighboring pakistan which could have an important impact on war in afghanistan i woul likeo introduce our speakers ireverse order today. the cleanup speaker, the y will troduce first is lisa curtis. she is a senior research fellow for south asia and the asian studies center at the heritage foundation. since joining heritage in 2006 lisa has appeared on major broadcast networks to comment on

developments in south asia and as testified several times before congress on issues related to india, pakian, afanistan and the u.s. image abroad. she taube-- coach share the working group, an independent bipartisan working group made up of a handful of u.s. experts the publhed aept in september of 2008 entitled, the u.s. and pakistan, the next cpter. the for joining heritage she was a profeional staff member of the senate foreign relations committee where she handled the portfolio for the committee chairman senator richard lugar. from 2001 to 2003, she serd as a senior adviser in the state department of south asia beau or she buys the sifton secretary on india, pakistan relations. in the late 1990 she servedith the central intelligence agency as a political analyst on south asia. she so served as a political officer to the u.s. embassies i islamabad in new delhi in the early 1990's, where she earned a

maritime-- meritorious honor award from the state department as well as the honors for her anytical work on indo-pakistani relations. most recently she visited afghanistan in late june as part of a nato opinion leade delegation. speaking just before her will be david isby. david has studied afghanistan since the soviet invasion of 1979. his fourth book on afghanistan, afghanistan, the graveyard of empires, in the history of the borderland complex, will be published next year. he has testified on afghanistan before both house and senate committees and is a frequent visitor to the region. most recently hwas in afghanistan last november and was embedded wh u.s. reeional command east and with coalition isaf forces. he served as the talking hansi pn, cnn and many media outlets and his work on afghanist was

recognized by the soviet government, which awarded him the titles of bourgeois falls of fire of history, and the cia agent with hum accounts will be settled. needless to say both charges are false. our second speaker, who is dr. marvin weanbm. he is acholar in esidence in the middle east institute. he formally with the afghanistan and pakistan analyst at the bureau of intelligence research at the u.s. department of state. he is also a professor emeritus at the university of illinois where he served as director of the program in south asia and middle eastern studies. before that he was a senior fellow at the united states institute piece. he held a fulbright research and is t author of numerous books, chapters and articles about afghanistan and pakistan. he returned last week from afghanistan greece served as an observer with the democracy

common and the election observer with the democracy international delegation. and, our lead of speaker, lieutenant general david barno. general barno served@@ as the director of the south asia center at the nional defee unersity since april 2006. during a 30 ye army career he commanded units at al levels from the tenet to lieutenant general. in the course of distinguished career, gener rno has become extremely knowledgeable about the conflic in afghastan. he commanded over 20,000 u.s. coalition forces in afgnistan as part of operation enduring freedom for 19 mths, from 2003 to 2005. he previously served in combat is an infantry officer with the army ranger battalions in the panama and granada a agents. general barno holds an m.a. degree in tional secury studies from georgetown university and a b.s. degree from the u.s. military academy at west point.

he is also a graduate of the u.s. army command and general staff college and the u.s. army war college. as director of the near east south asia centered general barno has traveled widely in the middle east region and has lectured at a variety of military institutions including harvard, yale, tufts and west point. he is a frequent consultant to agencies on counterinsurgency, counter-terrorism and the changing nature of conflict. with that, let me just turn to general barno to lead off. >> thanks jim and mao of much more importance to my wife, my and his son just got back from a year in afghanistan from the 101st command beaston jalalabad in and around kandahar so that was a much more demanding experience for famy then having them me over there for 19 mohs though it is certainly makes mfeel the challenges that are ahead very personally

as that will be on our horizon sometime down the road in the future as well. as jim noted, as we have had some conversations before we abrived on a panel this afternoon, we are in some degree of unctainty in ahanistan right now brought to a very clear point by the election that took place on the 20th, and the reality that of course we don't yet have a final resolution of who the next president of afghanistan is going to be so that is the context in a sense of our panel today and in some ways it is a broader a metaphor r the certainty of afghanistan and the entirentprise over there, which it think it's certainl something that concerns all of us that it got a deep commitment for our overall international policy success in the region. today i'm going to talk a bit about challenges and the opportunities inherent in those challenges as we look at the road ahead over the next several

years and talk a bit a well about the current context of where we are today. earlier this year i had the opportunity to testify before both the senate and house armed services committees and in each of those testimonies i noted that in many ways successive in afghanistan is a bit of a mathematical equation. it isot cimple but it is straightforward and the equation might go like this. success, which is achieving our policy objectives in afghanistan and those are open for some discussion today, but success equals leadership plus strategy plus resources. leadership plus strategy, plus resources and i made a number of observations on what modifications, changes, new directions we might the one with regard to our leadership, o strategy in their resources in afghanistan. leadership being beaupre individual and organizational stctures, our strategy being a

policy approach as well as the campaign plan tt helps realize those policy objectives and finally the resources which range from not only the millions of dollars required but also the key individuals concerned, the thousands of military soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines the fight ther and the key civilians in diplomatic development communities that will require seeing this through success. one of the striking things i would observe up front tay is that in the last 90 days or so, ally since the beginning of the administration, to be more broad, which have seen major changes in both leadership, strategy and resources. altria those components have seen a significant change in direction if you will fro what we had six months, 12 months, 18 months ago and afghanistan. i tnk that is very appropate. clearly earlier this year we were on the cusp of significant

challenges and i think we are moving in a different direction today. th is only because of the dramat changes that have been put in place in leadership come in strategy and resources that are only now beginning to play out in afghanistan itself. i spent three and a half days in afghanistan in january of this year as part of general traeus' strategic assessment. i wilh go back probably in november for another week to two weeks to provide for their insights and it is clear as we look at the challenges there, that we are in a critical period of time. many are arguing the next 12 to 18 months in afghanistan will decide the ocome of the conflict and i think that is a fair appraisal. is a bit of a short range look but also a fair appraisal of things that got to chang in several dimensions in the next 18 months so let me talk about perhaps for challenges that we face as a look to the road ahead, over these next say two

years in afghanistan. from my perspective it looked like this. number one we collect the inteational committee is set to defeat the taliban strategy in afghanistan and we don't often talk about that. i want to expin how i see that strategy. number two thumb i think we need to collectively, particularly genaral mcchrystal and the key international players have to deliver unity of effort on the we talked about that for years. now we have to deliver on that promise. third, we have to think collectively in this risen afghan hands, restore the trust between the afghan government and theeople. that has been fractured in the past three one-half year or so. during my time over there there was a great deal of respect, optimism between the people of afghanistan and their emerging government. that is not true today and that has to chang

finally, to talk to onef our key vulnerabilities, we in the united states have got to look to rebuild popular support for this extraordinarily important and dangerous conflict. we simply can't all the population in the united states not to understand the reasons for our effort in afghanistan and not to be fully informed and be fully behind this extraordinarily important enterprise that we have there. let me talk briefly about each notion for golfers, the taliban strategy and again defeating the taliban is more certainly than killing, capturing and undeining their structures. the way i characterize this in very simple terms is, the taliban strategy has run out the clock, run out the clock. if this were a football game they view themselves as being in the fourth quarter. theyre ahead on the scoreboard other controlling the ball in their strategy ito run out the

clock on the opposition, being us. that also placed one of our greatest liabilities, our abily to stay committed for a long-term confct and i will talk to that at the end of this issue of rebuilding americ popular support. the taliban strategy is deeply rooted in our history. certaiy in the recent history of the last 30 years. ny afghans would approach me and asked me the question when i was the commander, to americans-- you americans are not going to abandon us again are you? their history that they believe deeply in is that at the end of the soviet conflict, which afghans believe they won on behalf of the west and defeated the soviet empire on behalf of the west, they believe america walked away from ahanistan and there's quite a bit of evidence to support their view of what occurred in the late 1980'snd early 90's. they are very wary of that occurring again. our friends across the border have the same outlook, so we are

working against a strategy that our adversary has now that simply says the americans are going to leave, the international community is going to leave and we the taliban are going to be here when the west leaves, when the americans leave and you are going to have to deal with us. that is a tremendously powerful outlook in a tremendously compelling aument from the taliban to make. we have to think through clearly how we can defeat thattrategy, and it means essentially winning and investing and in during as my friend likes to talk about, with our overall effort in afghanistan. the second challenge community of effort and this is more prosaic but no less importa, which is how do we get all of these disparate organizations and entities to work tether, not simply an kabul which will be important but in the districts and the village and therovinces, which will be by a. wit guts structure and gener mcchrystal and general eikenberry wile at the forefront of this, working

interagency development, diplomacy, defense down of the grassroots level that actually works well together as the team other steps being put in place to do this now. reover as general mcchrystal notes in his new counterinsurgency guide which he just published this week, the afghan nationals acree forces have got to be partnered in a separate. they have to eveually lead this effort for the other is to be unified command structure with the afghan army and security forces down at the grassroots level. there's little to none of that today. that has not been a hallmark of our approach to date in afghanistan so this unity of effort, delivering the goods at the grassroots level thabuilds partnership between international security forces, the u.s. milary, nato military, afghan army and police and the development and diplomacy, that has to work seamlessly down at the basic level in afghanistan. our organizational struures starting in washington don't work that way.

but we have got to get back to work in the field and without that we are not going to succeed in afghanistan. third, restore therust between the afghan people and the government. as i notedhat is really an afghan requirement. that is not something that the united states can duper dotus not something that the international community can do. only the next president and government afghanistan is going to be able to create that result. that trust has been afraid to the point of fracture in the last three and a half or four years in afghanistan and there's a tremendousap between the ople's expectations which i sought is so high and optimistic in 2004/2005nd where the afghan people are today. the next president of the afghanistan, whomever that is, president karzai or others is that to take on as an effort rebuilng this drez. the afghan people have no confidence in the government. they have no confidence in the rule of law, they have no confence in the ability of

theirocal government, their local governments to take care of their needs, to meet their expectations and they are very modest. if that cannot occur, the no amount omilitary effort will enable us to be successful in afghanistan. we have got to assist the objective is one of our priority task. finally, i think clearly we have got to rebuild popular pport a popular understanding for the war in afghanistan and here in the united states and i would argue in europe as well. these wars are long, they are difficult, they are tup slossburg of the course has been very uneven andhe path as the nays zigzag one of the last severa years. we have n got to crystallize in the mids of the american people and their allies that we have a clear road ahead. we have the right commanders in the right theaters on the ground. we have the right campaign plan ing rolled out to be able to execute our strategy and we are going to resourced that prorly

to achieve the very important results that we have committed years of our blood and treasure to. that is ve achievable. in my recent visit to afghanistan and certainly during my over year-and-a-half there i the commaer, the difficulties we face in afghanistan in some ways are not as difficult militarily certainly ashat we faced in iraq and we are not in a position of in some ways this reason we were in iraq by the end of006. i watch that very closely, and the principallayers and fall with that on the military side. afghanistan is not that didley today ad not that desperate today. we are in a better position militarily than we were in what some in fact many considered a hopeless situation in iraq just three and a half years ago this is achievable, it is winnable and worthy of the result that we have to explain to the american people and we have to explain to our allies, to people that make up their

governments across europe, that this efforis achievable and it needs critical security objectives for all the countries involved. the 9/11 attacks occurred many years ago now. they have receded from popul memory. in some ways i think many people have come around to the believe that that simply is not goingo happen again. that is a risk that we have got to be extraordinarily vigilant tg prevent from having the realization of ker again in the united states but he can occur again. or having occurred in europe again so the fight against the taliban in afghanistan is related to that but it is also broader than that. there is an incivility in afghanistan and in its ability in paktan and given the nature of the threat thats there now from terrorists, the nature of potential instability of te governments there, thats is extraordinarily serious national security threat to the united states and to our friends around the world. i'm not sur we have actually

characterize that as clearly and as comprehenvely as we need to to make that case to the american people here today. i think we have four major challenges that need to be addressed as we move into this new era in afghanistan. we have established a new leadership structure their through some very old and dramatic moves. we have identified a new set of policy objectives with president obama&s speech that are now bein converted into operational reality with t new campaign plan. we have established and are beginning to enroll the reirements for additional resources for afghanisan, part of whi i suspect, that some of the assessment that general mcchrystal and general eikenberry are concluding now. we now know what the road ahead need to look like and we have got the right pieces in place to deliver. now we have to belear in our objective to defeat the strategy of the enemy and began our fourth point there, the narrative of the american

people, e resolution of the american people and our allies, that plays right into the taliban strategy. the idea of then exit strategy, plays into the strategy of the taliban in the fourth quarter and i think we have to be very aware of that and thoughtful about that. unity of effort in thinew enterprise and new leadership is critical. it is reporting that it is going to be dficult to search. we can accept this kind of outces. we have got to deliver on this now and provide the resources at the grassroots level to create this unity of effort. restoring the trust of the afghan governmt. as this election plays out its final chapter we have got to work intensively with the next government of afghanistan to help them rebuild the trust and confidence with eir population. if they fail at that mission mease bailet the overa enterprise a all will be in vain so that is a credibl objective.