.. >> thank-you general.

>> i will devote my remarks almost exclusively to the election that took place on august 20. and looking in particular act what w might have dxpected om a predential election in afghanistan, what actually happenedn that electio i saw it and others, and what are the consequences for political stability and reform in afghanistan for the counter insurgency strategy that lieutenant general barno spoke about this afternoon? elections can lead to theade to democratic rule but they can also prdcipitate political instability strong states can

overcome the disruive effects of a dimly fought campaigns and was in the election process. four weeks states the elections can be a shock to the system and set back democratic development. i fear the latter is the case infghanistan. it was not very difficult to predict what this election would bring. do we have any reason to expect iwould not be applied? it was hard to igine that ghanistan would be in a better place afterhe election that had been before the election and the place fore the election was not a very comfortable one as it was. there were many that question that there should be an election. they said giv the security environment throughout certainly the south and southwest of the country is

impossible to hold a free and fair election? it was also questioned whether there was adequate pparation for the election. whether the voterducation that so many felt was necessary to have an honest election was possible tha of course, with no political parties complicating and that the label role in monitoring the process. the last presidential election and took place in 2004 did in fact, install legitimacy on president on the karzai but no expected the same with this election. ivery obvious that he was unlikely to duplicate the 55% that he had secured in the

2004 election. his popularity from every indication had badly eroded and logic dictated he probably could not avoid a runoff election. everybody anticipated or suggested there be irregularities but it was an almost certain the oppositional candidates would likely declare the outcome as unacceptable, fraudulent they were unlikely to defer as they had in 2004 when they ha objections to the international community that ask tm to at accept defeat gracefully but of various pre-election appointments assure that karzai was going to be very competitive in this election. he had chosen as his casti

doot want to say coonspirators. [laughter] but his running mates and his supporters, he had surrounded himself as we know with number of but very unsavory chacters. what the did bring him was the ability to cut into the oppositi constituency. they also guaranteed to some extent, that the very forces for individuals who may lead forces after the election to challenge the results would be demilitarized. we went into the selection suspecting that this would be a close election. and despite the loss of popularity which was in the polls that 30 percent, that was no indication here of the suppore would get in the

election since it would come down to a choice between karzai andthers. what did happen? there was good news. in ft, it is the dog that did not buy. it seeme not to have materialized, kabul did not suffer the kinds of violence that many of us, a particularly those ofs that were in kabul at the time in fact, there seemo happen two elections, one on kabul where the st of our ability to judge went rather smoothly was by the but, -- a book and in ma polling stations that i visited, seem to be professionalism, seem to be

dedicated to what they were doing. they were on the press and but as reports came the filtering and, it was evident that the piur was different elsewhere in the country. that it may very well happen two elections that day but it s not even that clear because there had been to bomb attacks which we were totally unaware of. and across the country there wereundreds of at excellence associat with the election but none of this was no because there is a conscious effo in which the mia agreed to participate in any news of thi violence wi be kept suppressed needs to come our way the objective was

pposedly not to discourage people from coming out and voting. >> we as observers saw what was really not an accurate picture what was going on national. what w saw was a true picture of wt was happening in much of kabul and and also mazar-i-sharif the two larger cities outside of kandahar where knewhere would be problems. why is that? because the very nature of observation, you're going to go to those places where you feel secure. you will not be visiting those very polling centers which are considered to be dangerous, not only for the voters but for thensurgents. we were not able obviously to

place people but we did see people from our team in the purities in kandahar, but unfortunately, they were unable to get near the election centers. they could provide a peripheral security, but it was considered too dangerous and possibly the you negative intervention area if they had been any closer. we did not get to see that. there is a direct relationship betweenhe security of the area in whi the plings ki place and the possibility for fraud. i might also added that en in the viewing of the lloting, we have t apprecite the fact that the

most eegiousinds o violations, don't occur while the ballting itself is takg place. yes, you may see what is referred to as retail fraud perhaps somebody is voting twice, did not get in on their fingers as they should have to keep from multiple voting, but these are not the kinds of violations whichetermine the outcome day shall come. that is the stuffing of the ballot boxes, they are the manilation of the totals. they are the wholesale depositing of party i dittman -- indemnification which are then counted. they don't involve what particulate i saw after the election was over, of e obstruction of the ballots and

i saw these which have been thro out on the road. all of them checked off for one of the opposition candidates. a great deal of problem here in making judgments about it. we do know the turnout was low whether out of intimidation or apathy we knew it would be low perhaps nowe're looking at something morehan 30%. there were 17 million registered voters come in many of for chile wer probably multiple registrations. probably fewer than 6 million people voted, but there are no census figures and there was a registration lt. people could vote at any station that they chose. it was virtually impossible

make a definitive judgments about partipation except looking at the gross figures. based on anecdotal evidence, it seems many who are critical of karzai and i suggest overwhelming way the public had lost some degreof faith, it seems it seems in the pashtun community they either did not vote or they chose to vote for him and preference with dr. 39 and the others. or leased half tajik karzai did the tests of his alliances get acrosthe boa ethnic support but nevertheless ethnicity was a factor. there is hard evidence now of wide scale ballot box stuffing

falsification and i think there will be much more evidence presented in the next few weeks. there have bee more than 1,000 complaints filed b the oppotion candidates and by the karzai people themselves. but wt is likely to trip up the perpetrators of fraud is their own greedy now is. it is very likely we will best know what occurred on a large-scale when we start to see what we believe for the participation figures and the kandahar somewhere between five or 15% if the results come in which ey hav not from kandahar, to m knowledge and we see 40 or 50% participation, and thi will be a case or rather massive fraudulent voting. we have here fortunately the

electoral complaints commission which has a majority of the international members. anwe he every rean to believe we will he these results and give them careful scrutiny. they have the power to throw out the results from any polling center from any district or province per end fact a guess you could say the even have theower to throw out a candidates. what thedo cou very wl challenge the compxion of the election. whereby these preliminary resultwere they begin the buness over a two week period which is hardly enoh time to examine more than 1,000 complaints but nevertheless, they could very we alter the coursef this electi woulder that large and could be for a candidate and to bring about

their four at least a run off. finallwhat the consequences? have no doubt wh in t inrgency in afghanistan may be at stake. a b election threatens to undermine that everything we're trying now to get right that lieutenant general barno outlined for us that leads us to believe we're on the right track. old see what lieutenant neral barno suggest we have to do that is to restore the confidence that has eluded us and the central government because also losthat confidce.

and we have it to regain. can we expect a partner with the governmentelegitimize by the very process by which it has come to power? at may be the issue. there is a certain amount of subbectivity how much fraud enables you to declare it unacceptable? how much is too much? the inrnationacommunity is in a difficult place because having sanctioned this elecon having justified the addion of extra troops because of the trkops can it expt anything otherhan a minimal acceptable outcome? can it afford to challeng the credibility of a future governnt? th is a very serious issue. initial statements from the

independent electoral commission have meant to be calming but also in a news conference his i attended, had the tone of being business of reports that worry merging. excuse me. they tended to be dismissed if the. our own the administration congratulated the people but also left the impression that we were satisfied with the process. the report said from the national democratic institution, is a two but a favorable cross on the election saying the results were not annd the adjudication process had not run its course.

aside from the possible embarrassment we have one may make judgments like this, we also leave ourselves open to the charge that we favor the status quo and we had a favor. finally,an be salvaged this election? n we end up with incredible kabul government ccks efforts by the united states and others leading up to this election, going on even now i suspect to create a natiol unity government to somehow bring together theeading candidates in a single government. it is highly doubtful the opposition figures rticularly dr. -- dr. abdull gourde ghani will agree as they come in the

third highest kennedy in the county. but more importantly the afghan people i do not believe will accept a dealhat will make voting irrelevant and adds that many have for their own leaders tard the rest -- west. the u.s. and others have feared a second round that will isify ethc tensions. but there are already ethnic tensions. i would argue hera second ballot will force the opportunity to convince the people that e election outcome s not to be ordained. that it can be a comtitive election. it may happen any way if karzai fails to get a majority orhe complaint commission finds enough particularly in the south to d9 karzai the 51%

that he needs to avoid this. but a second round offers important a the possibility, particularly with greater international involvement that occurred in the first round. to better monitor the process, to p in place procedes which may alleviate some of the difficulties in the first round. in the end, produce someone who was more convincingly a winner ether it be jaime karzai o.r. dr. abdullah abdallah. thank you. >> thank you. mr. isby? >> tnk you. the mo important u.s. policy decision is not implementing current policy but rather deciding what should come

after them or hard realities or politics in the unite states underlying $0.02 a x. first, the situation afghanistan i that serious and the need of improvement in so many areas of geographical and functional is so profound, that even if all elements of th current poliay are successful, afgnistan nnot be solved in three years. suessful ilementation can at best me a down payment on success and if we don't we can put afghanistan back into a civil war. second, over the next three years u.s. politics ll have the increasingotenal to affect afghanistan. the current of frustrati will want to have afghanistan in the rearvw mirror as the

cqrrent sayi goes by the time they run for reelection in three years. if theeft-wing base would like you to be happy with the course of conflict at baton public support is already declining they do n 1/2 to explain it to the electorate. but i didn't find her policies is important to or anyone motivated by politics are any other reason you actually cares about success and afghanistan. be easy for critics of the current administration to say simply, bring the troops home which would enable them to cycle a bumper stickers or for the congress to reimpose commissions or requirements the afgh government that maybe politically attractive bu self-defeating.

and the follow-up called plan b needs tshow a commitment to afghanistan. the culture of corruption that has grown in recent years is in many ways the symom of the perceived fundamental weakness of the unitestates that they days that they will come as itid in the first george bush administration t u.s. will disengage from afghanistan and leave it to be foughtver by its neighbors and to many afghan believes this means they will enrich themselves while they can. plan b needs a supporter lasting relationship with the afghans and afghanistan. we need a relationship like that of israel that ll endure and will not precle support from nabors. he afghans made the down payment on this relationship in the 1980's. afghans fought and died is one

of the reaso why all humanity can enjoy a world without soviet communism. eds to go beyond current needed efforts to build reliablefghan securi forces. need to build comfortable capabilities and the afghan government? not imposed by foreign troops they must me honest and effective and above l$ perceived as a legitimate it means helping to restore afghan islamiyah as a pow anreach tofghanistan tha is hard to understand in the final analysis it ll require arivate sector economy. plan bustake into account of all of t many areas u.s. policy ha fallen short in the year since 2001, none has been more important thanhe failure to give pistan to

prevent e terrory for being used. pakistan is a friend the u.s. military presence period would not be possible without the life and communication running through pakistan with the suppt karachi but years of policy have made possible the insgency that kills coalition troops as well as afghans they're looking to disengage it willrevent them from becoming the site of a threat to its own security disengagement will not bring cross-border proxy war. mac it will have the effect of principles as many different possible soever is created or done afghans must take ownership and responsibility. no foreigner should do

ytng if there are competen afghans available. the first party should be training in putting together current policies that can be put for the american electorate is likely to be a challenge. plan b needs to show the eltorate there is a way for that can build on cre policies and that is worth the cost idollars and casualties other wise the real losers will be the people of afghanistan, not the curre did ministration nor the congss. now is the time to start working on plan before afghanistan. >> the final speaker is a lisa curtis. >> tnk you foreing here. i will talk about the elections and say a fords about pakistan role in the region and then i will tadk about was success in ghanistan should look like. i will try not to be repetitive sforge me if am.

cours the u.s. state sen the election are very high to help achieve stability and enstre that the cntry does not become a safe haven for international terrorist the u.s. has to have a partner and kabul that has credibility with the afghan people. this was a historic election in the run-up to the polls we saw large campaign rallies held by the various caidates, the first-ever national debates among the candidates on the televisionand these are political activits that we finitely would not be under taliban rules it is significant that the elections went forward at all and people did participate albeit in much lower numbers than we would have hopedbut th d this in the face several taliban of threats and attack and i think thi says something about the afghan

determination to pursue a democratic future rather t harsh islamic stroll under the taliban rule of t 1990's. the threat to cut off the fingers of tho who voted, i think shows their desperation and that they have nothing to offer the people except violen and intimidn but this typef intimation is a risky strategy and it can definitelyire. of course, there are two outsnding questions that have to resolved before we can say this election is a ccess and marvi has speed out aot of those issues and let me briefly touch on phem agn. first, the question s turn out heidi enough to lend legitimacy? and second, will the acsations of fraud be thoroughly invtigatedr delegitimized of b? regarding turn out, obviously the guy has been cast and it

is utohe afghans to decide whether participation was t enough to reflect there will on the question of regularities i agree the international commity n lp out and this is wher the work of the electoral complaints commission becomes crucial. this is the international body that will investigate literally hundreds of allegations of voter fraud ov the next three weeks. whatre some of the scarios that we should be watcng for? the prelinary results that will be released next week, we have to wait but even then we won't ha the official verdict until mid stember. so far just over 17%f the votes have been counted whi is about 1 million which show th kzai has about 42% and dr. abdullah has 33% and of

course, these figures suggest very low turnout which was pointed out in the range of 30 and 35 percent over all and even lower in the south if karzai were declared to be the winner i the first rnd of the obtainsver 50% of the vote to the midstious allegations of vote tampering i think his government would be on shaky ground the coalition r it -- forces would be that it was a sa reflecon and be more difficult tk achieve stability and afghanistan if neither received a 50% then of course, a runoff election uld be required been mid october while it may prolong the period that is raising the potential for more taliban fireman's and intimidation and could bolster the afghan stay

at process to demonstrate it was a truly competitive campaign. there is no oshore outcome and i think we have to tolerate a certain amount of unrtainty for thtime being. l.e.t. aew wordsbout pakistan because oiously it impacts afghanistan now ventured to say we're beginning to see things move in a more pitive direction of paktan with regard to the military attite toward fighting the pakistani taliban on there is more clarity with the leadership of zero as the public with the threat to the country posed by a the taliban th there was just si months ago. and the military has prove is capable of pushing back the militants fro the settled areas and the northwest parts of the country if it is determined to do so. in three months pakistan has been able to ous the taco

bell forces from the swap out a which has alled displace people to return to the region. the military will he to remain for some time to keep the taliban that day. the elimination of the leader has helped with their fight against terrorism afd demonstrates the u.s. pakistani cooperation can bring bejefits for pakistan since mehsud was responsible for attacks that killed hundreds of pakistani citizens over the last 18 months. but the developments may not ve an immediate or invisible days visible impact on afghanistan. they are certainly hopef than the overall battle against extrism in this part of the world and ty will help stabilize pakistan, but to quell the insurgency, something will have to be done abouthe

afghan talibeadership that curreny resides in the flu to stamp province. what i heard from nato commanders on the ground and ndar in lead to the afghan taliban leadershipontinues to direct the fund and coordinate the insurncy in southern afgnist and neutralizing this leadership would go a long wayo achieve their goals. convincing pakistan to cooperate fully and it is necessary to achieving our goals and remains a fundamental challenge for the obama administration. there has been lot ofalk of a recent abc poll that shows 51 percent of amecans do not believe the war in afanistan is worth fighting. i believe as lieutenant general barno of the size, and this mea that u.s. lders need to do a better job of explaining why the war in afghanistan is s fundamental

to u.s. interests. pridenama it did this on march 27 when h laid out the new strategy a what he did last week when he spoke to the vfw he said this is not only a war we are fighting it is in the fundameal defense of the american people. president obama and his senior visers need to reathis messe over and over. and want to say something ickly on the statements when we plant timeline 3-1/2 to achieve these objectives this definitely has a negative impact and the region and reverberat very loudly with pakistani i i heard from afghan leaders in june such statementprovide encouragement and allow them toonvince the cadres they are on the winning side but by the same token the statements make it more difficult to

convince the pakistani ashey wll remain committed over the long term. somef these our time negative to underme our own jectives in the region and but may cude by spelling out what i think successill look like from the u.s. perspective. in afghanistan, it would mean a stable government accepted by the majority of the afghan population but not along ethnic lines but also means those taliban who support international terrists are noin a position to threaten the stability of the government this would require a strong, well equipped and will trade afghan army success does not require t complete elimination of many what that has ever penned associate with the taliban but it does require that the taliban that is allied with al qaeda ed do

not have the ability to assert their influence through timidation of the population. reconciliation of the local level with those fighters you're not ideologically committed to the cause is certainly possible there are no signs that the senior leadership mainly located in pakistan is interested in participatin in eight normal political process they still lieve they can chase forces out of the country and retake power and institute the harsh islamic rule that accommodates al qaeda and its agenda and this is simply the outcome that the u.s. cannot afford. thank you. >> thank you. at this point* i wouike to go to that question and answer part of thd program are like to ask the first question and give them time to tee microphones and i would ask after the first queion as we

go to the aience just ask ry short question so we have time to get as my as possible. as far as my question goes out li them to react wt has the obama administration done this are? the poi* man on afghanistan richard holbrooke ignited a many firestorm when he dies the question on what victory in afghanistan look like when he was n sure but whe he would see a. there may be an internal disagreements about matching means to end or perhaps different approaches to the resurfag of the war. i wod li task you what is the obama administration doing right so far?

secondly, where mig se urse corctions be in order to improve the u.s. picy on afghanistan? >> i would start by reprto my earlier comments i think the cnges of leadership and strategy and resources not all that has been played out have been spot on. there have been some exceptions certainly in the leadership department, very tough decision had to be made and i think those w have contributed they have conditions for success have far more comprehensive way than we have seen in years and years. the resource peace plays out what the ambassador asked for in that way has yet to be seen. >> by a greek with ambassador holbrooke and trying to revive

the-- tovoid defining victory. think we should use the word victory i prefer as lieunant general barno to have about having some sucss there will n be a clear-cut military victory cerinly or weather likely be a clear-cut polical vicry. it will be as suggeed that itill be central tt th place becomes stable enough that it can withstand the challenges to its own integrity as well as the concerns that we have been terms o global solutikns. one area wher i think the administration may be back on the right track, but initially it was off, it defines back i the first speech that the president gave comedy find essentially our mission to protect the homeland and focus

heavily on al qaeda. i believe this is wrong. because it did not suggest the wide interest that weave in the region. our stakes go well beyond simply the best of the elimination of al qaeda. we have here concerns about the fact that pakistan y be at issue as well as afghanistan, the issue of new beer proliferation, the dangers of four between india and pakistan the contagion o any type of taliban victory into central asia and into the gulf. the implications regionally and globally, should we have to walkway from afghanistan? that i catastrophic. the american public ha to be

told and because that will be necessary fo us to sustain our efforts for the amount of time it will take but we are to have realistic expectaons about what we canccomplish but let's t foo ourselves into believing if bin laden were killed tomorrow, that we have the easy exit from afghanistan. >> usually if the awer is said to mo foreign troops, you have probably cost the ong question. th behng said, theurre administraon has no option except for increasinthe commitment. the trend lines are not going thright way and research needs to turn things aroun but we are seeing some progress in afghan security forces, but this is about afghan lives so we will the simp efforts and things ke

the economy, a simple covenants the judiciary system and even religion because much at -- of afghanist reaches propaganda. must restart to turn other rts around as well as a security force, we will not get to beyond the current tuation. >> quicly inerms of what the administration has done right, treating it afghanistan and pakistan as if you link the region as a whole is the right approach not to say afghanistan pakistan aren't similar in their democratic developmt or institutions, obviously there is but the threat to is that the boer and thats the same which is important to put the two policies together. that was riper of the fus on protecting the population and drawing back on air strikes or

artillery restraint -- strikes are extremely important for i think we risk from losing support because of the growing casualties of that is a step in the right direction. and i think obama's decision to send more troops and point* him in the south to disrupt the talibastronghold there was also the right decision in terms of moving forward, i would reirate that has to be a clear-cut strategy and obama will have to be very clear on that especially if he does send more troops i think congressional members will say there is a clear-c strategy in place then we have to give that strategy time to work. i again, with the one per two your statements you pick up the sense of impatience we will have to get over that if we really wanto achieve our

obctive. >> fed taliban has been quoted many times as you have the clocks but we have the time and it is necessary to cnge that perception. if iwill come to the point* where they lay down their arms, or at least enjoy some kind of broader government which i don't see in the cards bu there are so many different types of factions that can be coopted and bought off and driven away from this leadership. t's open for the audnce for questio. >> i am from the instite for the study board this is a distinguished panel but my question is lieutenant general barno talking about the telegram strategy do have a sense for the campaign plan and the south particularly?

is it coherent or proactive more reactive can y talk about that and broad details as you are able to hour specific a possible. >> that have any intelligence but my own broad assessment is the fire was two lay this out a tactical level the strategic level is what by a describe as run out the clock the operational level the campaign plane and i think that is focused on isolating kandahar and maintaining as much control of the population on the south as possible. that is the historic homeland and where ty began as a movement well over one decade ago that has a particular importance to themo from a campaign standpoint it has great resonance but at the grassroots day-tday level, across the count but in this out and plays out with a tactical role with results

on the ground that generally means and click the casualties on the data for since with united states and dving dow that popular support they aren't gd at that. they're also looking to cau and then nato forces to overreact and thereby ve a civilian to undermine our support me of the tactical level those are things thedo on aegular basis toeed our strategy is. >> al-maliki in. how you evaluate t role of the natollies have played specifically in the election? what about otherountries the international community? has russia play a constructive role? i am not sure.

>> i think this was the international effort to support this ection. as i mentioned before there were international observers the international forces on the grond were participating in providing additional security for the election. i have not or heard that e russians have played any particular role although iran, russia of have the capabilit of being spoiled if they chose to. there has beeno evidence that i have seen that suggests they chose that will. >> any other questions? >> they have moved their

adquarterso pakistan and they can fight with the pakistan army so i think pakistan is in big trouble. how will he deal with this? and also eutenant geral barno he talks about the economy so we real need t have our resources going there. and to talk a route the completion of the election ection, and also it will n be any good.

how to deal with the critical issue? >> thank you. >>ne would be where do get the civilian people for the surge? then it will fill up? >> that is a valid qstion it is of easier to avoid -- fine troops and civilians but there are efforts going a wha we will see is the cilia first going to the major ministry i wanted to raise a point* that i met with the u.n. people and i think the assistances starting to play an important crdination role between the afghan government and the international donors. what we saw when a two yrs ago was a lot of confusion in terms of different donors doing their own thing and not

coordinatine we speaking with one voice to the afghan government that is beginningo change fact the u.n. is taking the role of coordination. the proposal in fact, for the civili search, was a lot of 10 point* coming from the afghans themselves but they do have to be complete involved as partners in the development effos. what i heard is it is happening and they are playing her role in devoping a strategy for housing civilians, a technical assistance, agricultural specialist, they will be involved in hping to develop the country. this is a positive development. bqt hopefully we will see

those efforts the foundation will continue with whoever makes up the next govnment. >> ts man then this man. ey do. i just returned from afghanistan. i did notun into the bomb because i was with e afans& lieutenant general barno talks about trust andhe lack of trust in the-- they have for the government and the message that the government has to put down to the population the afghans have totally lost trust of like the 2002 r 2000 to perds of havingn election if we spent two and if you do nablus another 50 millionpent by the candidate, why didn'te say that is not the right outcome

than a raft would not be a lution. what it? >> what we're trying to argue is it is widely viewed as discredited for whatever reasons, iis aer opportuny to demonstrate that the democratic process ca work. evenf it is not working at the ki of level that we woul scrutinize all those here we do have some ccerns asell about how our elections are run. nobody is suggestin a a second round i a panacea, but itoes giv us, i believe, an opportunit with just two candidates in the re, to

create at least the sense that one of these candidates honestly didind. it will be expensive toave another election. it will be distracting to have other election but others feel the same way withhe election of the unrtainty that the crent und of the election h produced will creehe kind of legitimacy this government desperately needs. let me go back to the gentleman u.s. auestn befo. legitamacy is more than the outcome of an election. it is built by a governmt thugh its actions on a more continuous basis and the kind of justice and brings and a kind ofovernae that brings

to the plic, its more than t they are way ons. highlighting the issues about who should govern? it remains to be seen howhey will b governed. >> [inaudibl] legize the process. >> we lemize its buy their participatn,hey will not go to but what is very obvious senell iany areas, at it is not a new 10 its not capable ofoing things on his ow-- home we hope it in the fure hean but right now it not. >> this was the afghan o lead ecti, they ran it, the d everything necessary to

make have been so thi is different than in 2004. >> the afghans from particatas t afgni eec we gave the cdidatoith three months to prepare while ourresident has to three years sep to prepare to run three mons there was n way for tm to be prepared r what i happeni in 2004, i believe whe being underground at thatimet was run better. we he auestn from a man the fro row. >> good afternoon. i am wit"the nation" magazine. myeade are get up there brng heroops home bumper stickers but and listening i thought his pgue

was a ltle off. but my questis aut the cribility gap. he touched on t fact that the if ministration has done some hpy talk a and the painted fingers and f dhe clk is runningut, if the polaon of the united stess beginning t turn against e war as the polls incate, if we starp telli the truth about this as opposed tohe happy talk, do you reall think the popution of t country will become more supportive of a war that seems so hopeless or are more likely to run the other direction? mullen was attacked for saying that the war was deteriorating. and when i wre aut this pane today f the nation it will talk about what marvin

ju described as a crisis of legitimacy which is the real news coming out of this election. how do you rebuild? eutenant general barno pport for a war that is so obviously a catastrophe and a deteriorating. >> let me start andurn to marc10, i would not take great issue with a war that is a catastrophe and deteriating i think our stock about the military situation but my in fnce your sugsting when things deterioratthe answer is that you quit pro. both in the u.s. and afghanisn presumably perhap more a then can talk to that but it goes back to my fourth point* that the leadership in the u.s. and among the allies in europe had to be calibrate this discussion with population

the country as t why we are there and that they are may not directly impact and clearly there is n any observers out thereho do not do the overall trend line as going downrd in a negative direction it is a failure to viory. the challenge is to tn the upward trajectory into an wa trajectory in the next few mths we have already been giv aas substantial source base to do that we have not seen thempact so to judge the ovall objectives by where we are today in a snapshot probably is n the proper wayo assess the prospects of the application for a new resources and a new strategy and leadership, we have to give them time to work

we do not d this says the inant coffee equation and have it ready at 6:00 a.m. it will take many months maybe buyt yr to see this turn around and i don't think we can judge in advance whathat result will be until we get to that point*. >> let me add, keepn mind the overwhelming we afghans want their governments to succeed, that theyave not completely lost fai and that democracy, and participation in, and be able to use their ews it really. they did not returnith that type of thing government and has to be stated over and ov, weave the trust and confidence several years. we squandered by our and attention, by our under

resource sting of the efforts. only now tha we think we have become fully aware of this and doing something about it. but we still have the ability here to have our interest and afghannterest definitely coincide. . .

t, we are going to pay a very heavy price. we learned that it was in 1989 to walk away from this part of the region and the pri we paid, therce wasuch greater. >> i think we of time for one more question. sir, right here in the middle. >> thank you very much. david, a queion probably for you. we talked about some of the personal aspec and talks about the electio tucked abt the military. you mentionedome of the economics that what is a valid governnt i afghanistan going to use as an economic policy? no one has talked about narcotics. what is the economy base that their going to be using to rebuild the country and how were

they going to survive when international committee stop paying for can't pay any more for their army and police force? >> i hope that is in the long te,he carrot ahan security forces are not supportable by afghan resources. that is a longer-term probl. in the end you haveo get it workineconomyndhat is going to built by nichols and dimes. in the world right now is a wnturn. people a competing for resource even for thingr such as the chinese investment and extraction and the deposits. talk about pipeliles. so it's fineo haveo be built a little at a time. it is already been done in kabul, and one used to say you have capalism working in one city and it is making the vast population are out tre inhe rural afghanistan and depend on good agbiculture so lot of investment has to be made in the

agricuural sector but you are dealinwith the country which, it is a poor country and if you han't been there y have to get your decadent western idea of poor and replace it with the afghan idea o four. that is very poor indeed so you have to reach thefgha and build a communhty. the other thing that is importan to the afghans i would say the moss. the mosque may n understand but it is very important to them and if they can use that to win t@e hets and minds of that 75% of rural afghans, we are in great problems inhe. >> iould like to thank the audience forood qutions and especially thank the pel. [applause]

>> now authors jones seven jeter and cam bobo. mr. jeter is the author fl oke and theree market and ms. bobo's bk is "wage theft in america." this is part of the annual

printers fear lit fest. >> i'm just a moderator, and the moderator is supposed to modete and, peopleumb, but i don't think that's it will be easy to call people mb once-ler to spears and authors prent the thes of the book and their arguments. came in bobo is kind of the jane addams of chicago. she is the head of the national inrfaith coalition for worker justice. in your bk, "wage theftn americ" how millions, why millions of working americans are not getting paid and what we can do about i is already a success. it is not an ordinary book. it ialready become a politilly that. people are around the country on talk radio sws and clubs and organizations and unions have become energized by this book which isbo how people, like

the kind ofeople barbara ehrenreich wrote about in nicked and times are being ripped o. our cond author, jon jeter, i hope ironounced that right, "flat broke in the fe market," is a remarkablriter, a journalist with "the wasngton post" and though he comes with all these establishment credentials, i think this is really a bombsll of a book and i ue people to read it. it is about how glolization has stried working people of the control over their lives, and he takes us on a journey from the salmon factory in chile to barackbama's chi and it is a rarkably couraoubook to ce t at this time( which even has vergood word to say

abou hugo chavez, and some criticisms of some of our national leaders. i strongly recommend it. what we are going to do here today is that each author make a ten-mite presentation, and our hope is that we can open this up to queions and a dialogue, and that you willlle roused enough byhat these people have to say that i will have a tough jo as a moderator moderating them, so let's begin with kim boboho is focused on its this that they can really shocking probm as a working labor lawyer-- southea a lot of, which is the w people ried off ismall ways in the mone they have earned them but we can do about it. cam. >> do not take advantage of a hired worker who is for a needy, whether that worker is an raite or a forgner priding ione of you towns. they them their wages each day

bere sunset because they are poor and they are countinon . otherwise they may cry to the lord against youth and he will be guilty of sin. at passage from deuteronomy clearly indicates that there was some sin back thennd i'm he to say that we hav got some sin right here in tn. [lghter] wage that. so, what is it? wage that is when employers illegally don't pay workers for all their woro two to 3 miion workersre not paid the minum wage even though e law is very clear. millions of worrs are not paid overtime. in fact aonservative business estimate is that $19 billion a year is olen in unpaid overtime. then there are wke

misclassifng as independent contractors when they are really employees, and this deals not only from the worker, because the worker doesn't get the employer side of payll taxes, doesn'tt overte pay but it also steals from all of us and from the public coffers bause it means folks don't get workers' compensation if they are hurt. they don't p into unemployment insurance so it is stealing frol the puics well as from workers. there is the last paychecks which is a gwing problem in this economy, so workers get fired if ty don't get their last paycheck. you resi in the donear last paycheck. your entire ant closedown and they don pay you lik the law requires. that too is wage tft. then there's the stealing of tips there e a major lawsuits out against companies for stealing tips. i was that my favore chicago restaurant, tank needle.

any of you all been there to take aittle? good, good food. corner of argyle and broadway. so i'm going to p my bill on the credit card, and i was going to put the tip there. i tued to thwages and i said if put mytick on the credit card, will you get it? no. ll she won'tet it in the there were lots of other workers. my frien at the departmenof labor advise me, just put your tipping cash because the workers are more likelto get it in you know those little cups at starbucks in dunkin donuts? donuts and tho workers are going to gett either becauce their major lawsuits out against both of those companies for taking some those worrs' tips. bender t day labors work all day and don't get paid at all. so, the are the major highways, but i have to tell you that every time i tnk i've heard it all in terms of workers not gting paid i hear a news

story. i heard the sryust a couple of months ago about henry's turkey service in abile, texas that recruited folks up for a work in a turkey plant in iowa. they recruited mentally disabled men to work in this turkey plant, shipped them up to iowa, house them in an old rundown schohouse that didn't have a heater that worked. io is a little like chicago. we need heaters in winte so they blocked up the windows to t to keep the heat in the place and then they deducted $500 a mth for room and board and anotr $600 a mth for kind care, resulting in these workers working full-time at a turk plant, getting paid $60 a month. that's too is wage theft. then the question is, if you can

agree that we havgot a crisis in wage that than that it is not somewhere else, it is right here all about this because every study shows that 50% of restaurants are stealing wages from workers, 60% of nursing homes, lancaping is notorious, residential constction is notorious. it is right here with us,o if we agree weave got a crisis, then the question is why? how come? i think it is a variety of factors. verse it is clearly greed which isothing new, but it is greed with virtually no pushback forces against it, so let me just quickly outline what i see as the major pushback forces that i descred in the book agait wage that. first, probably the most pushback force is the union. if you have a union in your workplace were probably not going to have wage that the nicki do it will be all over trying to get wages back.

view are in unions right now and so they are not providing the puback that we nd, which is why by the way interfaith worker justice is su a strong supporter of the employee's free choice act. illinois is not in play but there are a number of states and played so if you have got friends in louisiana, arkansas, colorado, nebraska, mai, pennsyania, virginia orrin jena talk to them about the employee free choice act. the cond pushback force of tb the hical business communi because at the coal businesses are undercut by employers that steal wages and put them at a competitive disadvantag althou in my experience over the last few years, the ethical business community is missing in tion on this issue. they are not speaking up, they are not taking the lead and if an of you run ethical businesses i hope you step to

the floor because we need me ethical business is pushing back on this. third pushbk force our workers centers. there are about 200 workers centers run the nation that are kind of like the settlement houses at the turn of the century or like the jewish labor lyceums are the catholic bor schools from the 3s to the 50's, the drop-in centers for workers who have not gotten paid help and support. that is how i learned about this crisis of wage theft because we have 21 workers cents affiliated with us around the country a the number one problem that we seevery day is workers not getting paid. these workers' centers are doing incredible work. there is one here in chicago that isffiliated with us called the rise chicago. evy day they see workers have not got the paper the last year they so workers from 200 different restaurants in chicago. not a single group of workers had gotten paid overtime in

chicago for the restaurant work againt is a huge crisis right here in r backyd. annexushback force are trial attorneyand i have to say nobody really speaks of the positively about trial attorneys that they are carrying a lot of the weight on this pushback force right now. in 2007 there were 7,000 cases filein federal court under the fair labor standards act all but 151 of them were done by privatattorneys, so theare tearing the freight on this issue. there re 62 different lawsuits that walmart finally decided to settle righted christmastime, december 24th. they will end up paying workers between 300 in $600 million in unpaid overtime. they made tha decision to pay that over time because those trial attorneys filed suit agnst walmart, so the trial attorneys are doing a lot of the

puback. the probleof trialttneys, and some gf my best friends are trial attorney, is a few of not gotten paid $200, you know, it matters to you but it probably isn't enough for a trial attorney to take your case, which is why whave to have a rong federal department of labor that is really stopping in detering wage that then punishing those who steal wages. so i have actually a fair amount of the book, i have several chapters on how we create a vigorous department of lor that can really enforce the labor laws. we have to come up withhe plan at interfaith worker justice so let the outline in my closing couple of muteq what we a recommending that folks do at the department labor. they have got to get more staff. they have 750 investigative staff to protect 130 million workers. that is one investigator for

every 173,000 workers. there just aret enough cops on the job now. secondly they have got to work with these workers centers and other community groups around the country to enforce the law. three they need to put information on the web site about employers thasteal wages because you and i need to know because we need to make some choices about where we do business but we can't do that because you can't find out any information about employers that steal wages. finally we have g to make meaningful punishments for those who steal wages for the right now if an emplor's deals ges most likely,ost likely they won't get caught in terms of the department of labor but secdly it they do get caught they are probably going to end up paying 50 centsn the dollar of what they owed in the first place. some unethical businesseaders say, hey this is a good business an we have got to make meaningful penalties for those cecile wages. let me close by saying that the good news about wage that is,

unlike many of the problems we face as a nation like sauerby going to de with the banking crisis or how are we going to get out of iraq and who knows what else we are going to do in the middle east, this is a problem we can solve. we know what to do about detering wageheft, so it is not rock science to do this. and it is something that each one o us can be a part of. if you live here in chicago or to live where there is a workers' cenr they are on a regular basis going to employers and insisting they pay workers so get on our e-mail action ert list by seeing danny in the back who was waving his hand back there, the guy with that skewed hand. get on our e-mail and we will tell you about actions need to do to assist employereed to pay. when you hire somebody, how are they going to pay workers. i was just having work done on

my deck and i got a bunch o bids and i ask each onef the bidders, how do you pay your workers? one of theuys said to me, what do you mean? it is not a complicated estion, how do you pay your workers? after a little back-and-forth he finay said i think i don't want your business. i don't think i want his either, ght? ascap people are paid. if you are going to go to rest on ascap the wait staff will get the tip andf u are not sure put it in cash. and when we intduce legislation this fall, stop which that bill the interfaith work for justice is going to introduce, i hope he will work with us to get it past. we can stop wage theft. thank you. [applause] >> that is more than a book. it is your invitation to take political action and it is cutting how to get right inside of it. it is a terrific read.

it is already become a politicay fenton this untry and you should by copy of it. our next author is jon bobo-- jeter, flat broke in a free market. i don't know this boze is as famous as kim's yet but it rtainly deserve to be. i have never come as close to missing readin a book as they did last night reading this. there aren't many public policy books inhe world that cn take you from a hot krementz here in the u.s., and a whole chapter on this to the salmon industry in chile and makes sense as we are reading along. agaithere are many books in this country that take a swipe at our own local congressman, bobby rush and a good portion about hu chavez, when he works for the post. versalattias to say. they a wonderful lines in this book. this is jon jeter, flat broke

and the free-market. >> thank you. [applause] first of all let me say what a tough act you are to folw. i am going to pick that up as soon as i leave here and let me say one other thingoo which is i am no lonr with "t washington post." i left four years ago, but that ms. sordid just talking little bit about what this book is about. my book is essentially talking about what has happened in the last 25 to 30 years all over the world from chicago to soweto to buenos aires to brazil and so the things that kim talks about, the wage theft, these are the kinds of things we see everywhere and we see this rising inequality everywhere in south africa, you are obviously. wages are being reduced and prophets are growing. we see countries spending less and less on education.

actually about a quarter less th most-- mose countries spe a quarter less than they did 25 years ago on education. on the microlel what that means is we have things like pettloan stores on the sell side of chicago. there oliver johannesburg, south africa. weep pay serious interest rates and edit cards, so does brazil on its bonds. we s crime rising everywhere, so this argentina which never had a crime problem until basically 1990 we see this dislocation and isolation of people increasingly from their unions come from families and that iq this integrated gbal economy has done or please the way it has been molded and shaped. it is isolated people, separated us from families in unionsnd our te representatives like

congressman rush. it is increasingly strange as from these institutions because of course we are no longer their clients. their clients are big business and this is all of the world so you see the sense of the trial in south africa f instance where the aft-- nelson mandela's political party which led this country to its liberation from aparthd and people are growing very sort of leery of it. th still vote for him because there's no alternative but they are wary of the fact that this government hasone increasingly to the right and unemploent has risen to 40% for the most part and people are materially worse off than they were during apartheid. so, why do we see these things? there is one simple deficit that we s all over the world now, with the exception of soueast asia for the most part and that is we don't make stuff anymore. we dome makeshe. south africa doesn't make stuff.

brazil busto mak staff. manufacturing is the key to a prosperous economy, particularly one that distribes the weah. how did we get here and this is sort of, this is the part that's its back to neoclassical economic theory. i am not an economist and want to go over this very quickly because while it is very technical it also provides some answers as to how we get out of this, how we escape these last 35 years of widening the quality, lower wages, people being funneled intthe service sector and low-wage jobs. of course the number one thing, the opening of borders to all sorts of exports, exported goods from abroad, both he, that is in zambia, that is everywhere and but that does is it really sort of puts at a disadvantage the deloping economies which

haven't had a chance to actually develop their industry so they can't compete, and essentially what the sea as a talk about in the book and a place like zambia, a southern african country, you see that they are 80% of the population, 12 million people let-- make less than 1 dollar a day. things like the textile industry has been done in dated by the united states and western europe. this sort of flood of imports flowing into their country. a lot of things like the even send-hand clothes, things that we don't a and-- give to odwill or the salvation army are sd for pennies to e pound. the second thing in this is really very kind of technical but it's very important and that that would say it is as impoant as anything, and this is monetary policy. what we have seen all of the the

world beginning in chile in 1973 but really deep and here in the united states and the rig in administration is the strengthening of the currency. that seems paradoxical in making the currency stronger, making it more expensive to buybroad but it does kill inflationhich is the point a that of course is a good thing but by making it o strong, what you do is you kill your domestic manufacturing and of course that is what we have seen for the last 30 years, this gradual dth of our domestic manufacturing base as good flow into our country that ar now cheaperecause the dollar is stronger and gets the flow out of our country's to countries like argentina, countries like brazil all over the world. people can no longer afford or don't want touy because there is artificial and play-- incurvation of the price nd of course that works both ways. argenta when they had their

crisis, this was the crux of the problem with that. they made their peso-- every so they printed-- inflation plunged to zero overnight but i also killed the domestic manufacturing industry. the third thing is it is just usery, it is that. not only do credit card companiesharge is 30% onheir credit cards, but essentially the world bank and the international monetary fund and the u.s. treasury and wall street charges countries like brazil, argentina, mexico, turkey, charge tse rates, 25, 26% on the bonds that they sell to finance usually products, services, bridges, dams, which only service their elites of this is another way in which the gains are rich and we talk about this in theook, where essentially the whole world has

become a @ay day loan store. we are luning money to a lot of these countries and eentially foring them io paying less serious interest tes onhis money. so, and the last thing i want to talk about is privatization and deregulation, which work hand-in-hand. what this means essentially is that public is shrinking qort of the, and as a result there is withdral of government from the market and what that means is that our electric bills are higher and we pay more for wate we pay more for gasoline. it is true all over the world, thisort of-- so you have not just people making less money by people pay more money for the sic nessities of life. now, what is my whole point here? my point is that what we have seen in this integrated global

ecomy is really a continuation of neoliberalism, of colonization and in the book guys start talking about how i came to read this book and they described a conversation that i had with milton friedman from the university of chicago. i went to his apartment in san francisco overlooking the bay, a beautiful apartment in 2006 and we were talking about the global economy in but it's happened of the last 25 yearsnd he describes something that i didn't see in my years abroad growing up herin the midwest. he described a world that was excellent in terms of e opportunities it provided people, in terms of just the direction that the world was going in, he described the world but d not recognize and there was a sense of deja vu in this conversation because six years earlier i had been in zimbabwe for "the washington post" and this was right when robert mugabe, a great man who went

very bad, but that is in the book i guess, when h was running this country by seizing farms, seing farms from the commercial farmers, white commeral farmers and really sort of beginning this terror. e otheras the prime minister rhosia who refus to surrender control to his people and fought this disastrous for for years even when the british government dn't want to. he was thinking about running again for prime minister and went to h home in the outskirts of hari. we spoke for probably about two hours ago we had only agreed to an hour but he just been widowed and much like friedman, this man who was expected to remember reading about as a child lives a child. how we always seem to be this figure. he was very gentile and sort of loans spokane insince,ut we were talking and i asked him basically why he wanted to run

for political office again. he said because when was the prime minister of this country our blacks were the happiest in the world, and this of course, this is th connection between globalization and colonialism. they were speaking for their constituency, both friedman and ian smith. they did not see any so for thei people of course the economy was grave. of course zimbabwe was grave. they werseing their clntele and if you are getting free labor or chea labor from indigenousfricans, yeah things can work pretty well for you. if you are charging a hut t on land that you basically stolen and charging africans a head tax, things can work up pretty well for you. if you are charging predatory loans with these crazy interest rates, things worked out pretty well for you. the point i'm trying to make is

obviously just from a mathematical standpoint, selling more goods abroad is a good ing. one would never aue about that the question is, how are you ableo sell more of your stuff abroad? , in other words how do you make the terms of trade gork for you? that is the question i try to answer in this book and the real problems, not oen people talk about protectionism. i don't know anyone left, right, african, you know, from the united states or anywhere who argues for protectionism but the question ido we really have to charge brazil 26% on the bonds that they sell? these are the kinds of questions i think that it to the hrt of the system being very rigged against working-class people. finally let me end by talking very quickly about chile. there is a myth of chile that chile is this sort of robust,

has this robuseconomy and that is because it is the most wide-open market driven onomy and certainly latin america but really the world, in the developed world. that is not true. watusi in chile is really sort of a harbing of hat happened after 1973 of a round the world including here. after agosto pinochet overthrew selva doria and its government, while actually there were plane overhead outside, th sleekly the chilean version of the white house, bombing the presideial palace, a guss though pinochet was printingight dow the street this five vendor page blueprint of how we wanted to sort of reorit their ecknomic system which was modeled very much mn the university of chicago is economic ideals. what they did was, they created the economy that we have now.

they created an economy where they saw boom and bust, cycles boom and bust. basically hot money, what congress called the hot money flowed into the country. this is mey in the market, the capital markets, overating the economy and would flow out as quickly when investors want to put up. there were deregulating, and what they so was justice almost, this volatile economy, 17 years of boomnd bust economies, and at one point they have unemployment rates of 33%. in 1990 they had a plebiscite to basically get rid of theeral pinochet. theyulled back immediately om this model and what we have seen in chi for the almost 20 years now is a system based manufacturing. is not perfect. theytill of some issues but essentially while the rest of the world including their latin american neighbors, or cutting

mone from education, there were deregulating the labor laws, chile was doing th exact opposite. they doubled the money they spd on education between 10 and 2004 think. th regulated the labor, they went back in a regulated the labor markets more than evdr. they have at least in 2004, the highest minimum wage in south america. they spend more money on the transfer of technology which is how they created from whole cloth the government invested money to do sound farming researching greeted ts industry which employs 100,000 pele, so this is the point i'm trying to make, which is that globalion-- we have made rd choices. they were bad choices. people agnone what the results are going to be and that is exactly what we have done. [applause]

>> i would like to take a detor's privilege of asking the first question to each of our authors and opening it up to all of you. kim bobo, as i read it did seem to mehat the book is about the way this the liberal world that n just described is cheating on the old new deal laws that were passed in the 1930's ke th fair labor standards act and you are arguing for pushing ba. wder whether you think that in theay, in today's political climate, we could ass the fair bor standards act again if it didn't exist and that maybe the probm is that we don't have the political wl in this country to reenact the law that we are no longer in forcing. what do you think? >> i think it would be hard to pass something quite as revolutionary as it was at the

time, something right now. because, they had head frankly a number of years ofort of a building up ofhe labor movement, the strengthening of the engagement of the religious community and these issues. they had a carry ditidend vital settlement hse movement. on thether hand, when they started th 1930's, noby thought they could pass something like that sa change very quickly and it feels to me like we cld not pass sething quite as revolutionary as the fair labor standards act of this moment. wever think we could make some modest changes in te next year onebt. however, if we rebuild some of these institutions over the next few years, particularly if the employee free choice act passes to get a strger labor movement, we bring the relicio community in strength and the workers' centers, we ge

workers a sense that frankly you can fightack and not be crhed, we could see it think it's changing momt in the on in a very short period of time, for five years, that would allow us to kind of take the next jump which is cly what we have to d we are working uer labor laws that are passed in the 1930's. they were revolutionary a that moment but not exactly for now. we absutely he to ratcheted up that we are going to improve standards in the workplace and m hopeful that this is that moment where we can really make significant changes. >> jon, a question for you. there were many lines in this book that i scribbled. i once saw sds terkel going through books of people interviewed in marng them up and i thought that was sacrilege and last friday foundyself scribbling in your book. but there were two that i am picking at random here that i would like you to commentn.

this one is early in the book, where you quote a wan or a man in africa i believe who said before globalization there was nothing on the shelves but people let money in their pockets. now, there is everything on the shelves but people have no money. and the second line, which really struck me is towards the enof the book when you are quoting an economist sing something that seems so counterintuitive to us. th economist is saying you don't want to much money coming into your country. you want really jus enough to come in that youan use for development, job training, improving the productivity of the country but no more. i am not quoting exactly. i wonder if he could comment on the connection between those two quotes there. >> that is a good question. the quote from the woman in africa, saying before globalization when they have been more socialist economy they

have nothing on the elves but everyone was working a of course there's debiting on the shelves but there'she money and that is a quote that they shared three or four different languages. that is something you hear all the time particularly in countries like zambia or mozambique or they have socialist economies of also like and argentina were was not necessarily socialist but what they called imports of the and so basically everything the country neededhey made, s these kin of economies generated, they kept out foreign goods oter was that much on the shelves, there was not that much choice but everyone was working and producing tse goods, so there's a prade out there that i was trying to get to and how that relates to the second quote about, whatas the second one? julie, chile's economy after 1990 had one real guiding principle in mind, productivity. every dollar you spend, and

every,ire economy was geared towards producing something, spending money on investing in productive wkers, production. it sounds sort of unsexy in 20. it is not speculation, it is not gambling that their housi prices going to doub over five years. it is every day making something, making something there requires skilled labor and selling it, and so this is the connection that is abou sort of-- i don't want to make in this book any kind of ideological choice. i don'telieve there is any hard and fast ideological should-- choice. the economiesre a lot messier than that. the combined free-market ideas with ideas that are more sort of inward looking, so you know, investing money is not an idea from the free market, but this is how you make an economy work.

it is just sort o the first country that does it in a different way will be the first country in history to be successful in making the economy work without making it pructive, producing something. >> i would like to open this up to any questions of the audience but first i wa to tellou a little roe that i've learned in law school. they pounded this into was in law school, never, never, never, never a a lawyer in a courtroom, never never ask a question over 15 words. that is how you got gold stars in our law school class, so keep in the gold star rule in mind i would like to open it up to questions for either kim for jon. >> i have a question for anyone of you. i am a yellow dog democrat and i am embarrassed by my party and i don't know why the labor union still sticks with them. they were in charge of congress for 40 years and during those 40

years, the union's power went down, down, down. what are we going to do about this thing? >> the question is what are we ing to do about the decline of unions, even though democrats, liberal democrats, are in charge? i thin both kim and jon's books have a lot of fodder for those issues. kim, i will le you go fir. >> the easiest response riedel is that we need to pass the employee free choice eckberg go it would make it easier for rkers to organize, easier to get a contract and punish those who tried to arrest and punish people when they try to organize. this is the most significant change that we have seen in serious conversation and i don't know, decades. so clearly i thi the firstnd easiest rponse is we should

pass the employee free choe act. >> jon? >> i think tt is exactly right. even though i understand it is being watered down even n, that is a love that could really revoluonized how we work here and sort of reranger society in terms of where the power is, so i agree with him, the employee free choice act is a huge deal. >> the next question. >> i know we are supposed to keep a 215 words. >> you can go over 15 words. >> with all thisoney tt is drawn around by people against this free choice act, i mean what percentage is that to one? it is a ton of money. d iis not going to happen, i do not believe and i think we'll t aller effort into this but i just can't see anything reall coming out of the obama administration or we don't get

anything in the news. do have got to read left-wing magazine so we can find out how much of is going oand i'm thinking these government jobs in washington must be great because nobody ever seems to want to quit and there's never any thing in the paperbout their great pensions and their health care and their kids being set up in all of this, and we can all get tother and talk. we are white people so we have an advantage, and you know, we are ahead of the game. we are ahead of the people that work in these factories and want to do better by their children. everybody wants this. we are all human beings, but to just be good doesn't seem to me to get it, and you know, here we are now. we have got obama. we put this big effort into all of that. he is going for everything we don't like. we have tenet 12 democrats that both republican including max baucus who is head of this

thing, we can't have single-payer health care. it is just nuts and we are all meaning well but what do we do? >> i have been intimately involved in this employee free choice that. we are @oing, we have got to wonder t religious leaders signed don, supportg that cut in colorado. we have been doing religious delegations in all of the swing states. i am actually more optimistic that we are going to win something that i think you are this moment and i think i'm right in you arerong. agahn, i don't think is going to pass exactly like it is, but there are se of very hh level conversations going on ght now on some, some compromises that frankly seem pretty good to me, so i'pretty optimistic we are going to get something. i have never in my lifetime scenic laborer despite all the craziness goingn in the labor movement right now, which there

is a fai amount, i have never seen them so united around the bill as they he been on this. no one thought it to pass the house. it passed the house of representatives. no one thought it would get close and the senate. it is close. i think we are goingto get something. >> can i just say very quickly, i feel some of your despair myself but one day want to keep in mind is that, there's a tough road, a tough hill to climb here but if you look it countries like bolivia, this is a country that 50 years ago was not even a country. it was the company. have the people were indigenous. they weren't even people. they were workers, they were assets on a ledger she somewhere and they had a president, and things areot perfect, but they had a president who is responsive to them now. i always say if that inot instructive, a leastopefully it is inspiratial for the reason not to be disparaged to

e point where you surrender. >> in this digital age were ly allowed to have one more one more question.right? >> it had better be good. i'm sure it is. >> could you speak to the fact that something has happene within the last 20 or 30 years in, with the american public to make them feel that they no longer needed lor unions, and to not have a sense of those who have risen to the managerial professional class, that they did that on the backs of the good union jobs that their parents had etc, a also even those wh are still benefiting from unions like teachers are often n pro-labor at all, and how-- is tre to-- how can that be turned around because of those people will tu around, then the employee free choice act will pass because those of

the people with the power. >> there are clearly a lot of very negative images of labor out there, some of which come a labor hasn't aays done whatt should do, right? so some of which is labor's fault. a lot of which is the fact that we have a very aggressive business community that has said it very into union culture, that has attacked the unions, that has, when they have owns newspapers, has cut out the labor reporters. even here in chicago, we now have no labor reporter and the "chicago tribune" every time the talk about labor unions they call the leaders, they call them union bosses. what is that about? so we have this kind of culture that isreating this anti-union thing and is folks he gone fartherway from personal experiences with the unions and they just have sorof the cultubal n. union stuff out there, theyust don'tno

i run intern programsith seminary students and i will have no one in the room that grew up an a union householdnd th will say, what exactly is a union, anyway? they don't know. >> thank you all for coming. i know many of you have more questions. please come and see our authors. >> and g their books in the room next door. >> you c learn more about all our booktv programs and authors on line at ourmproved booktv dud org web site. there you will find unschedule, a video clips and information on upcoming book fairs and festivals.

the the former self described anarchists in pinecroft nester protoxide the how are let sha schaechter marrying in military iltelligence officer. lily burana writes about buding the friendships in "i love a man in uform." from tattered cover bookstore in denver this program is abt 45

minutes. [applause] >> im geinely thrilled to be herend supporting a wonderful institution of taered cover books. they give so much support to others from all run the world and it is absolutely delightful to be hereor a second time. i do have to be candid with you. this is a end of the bokk tour for me so i am somewhat exhausted. i may and then an entirely due language and i. i'm not sure how coordiated my eye to speaking relationship is at the moment, and i am actually so tired that i reach for one of my hippy chill pills and i almost came this close to taking ambien, which would have made for quite mellow reading, so thankfully i got the right

sulements at the right time, so i will eglise come at the ve least i can promise you that i will stay awake. so yes, this is from "i lova man in uniform." it is about my marriage to my husband, army milita intelligence officer and we will start off were courtship leads to marriage. a couple of mohs after moving in together come and we started talking about marriage. i had fantasized about a traditional military wedding my beloved in his fint uniform festooned with rows of medals, a white dress for me and things old, new, borrowed and blue. we would leave the chapel by bachan hendren arch of sabers held high by fellow soldrs and as i pass the last one he vould tap my rear with his sword for custom saying, welcome tthe army, maam. but our betroths oh lended favre deal. his proposal predicated not so much on will you but what if. the jungle drums o for

repeating in t sense deoyment with them and that. we have to act fast. we discuss theituation. u know if there is aar in ir, i am going he hac made. i nodded in this town tes soland. you know what i happened when he ago. we made an appointment to go to city hall and to say i do just in case. i did that time to stage an emergence as mrs. fashionista so on the bembry team, the baghd piece together an ensemble the bidding a clothes conscious war bride. head to toe black lobert, a pencil skirt, white mesh fishnets, wide tote sling-backs. i grabbed my vintage leopard prt trench coat to cover up in the november chill and we are off to city hall. i didn't pass under an arch of sabers like traditional military by but i did have to go through a metal detector. the security gud exhibited the heart of a true pantic.

upon hearinge were there to get married he staged to me, the emergency exit is that way. on the way up to the chapel in the elevator i realized i wasn't a war bride, i was a war on terror bride. i areciated the image is suggested like they was a blood grizzling mrimonial zombie freak. if it came down to a blue-medbee movie catfight i would win. i wasn't weighd down by 10 pounds of lace trimmed fluff and with uncle sugar reading-- breathing down my nick, i w motivated. our only wedding aendants great man in orange prison jump suits being led down a quarter. mike and i had met in a graveyard in novey were coming here we were getting hitched in themmedte proximity to prisoners in handcuffs. someone at the synced departments singleism s working overtime on our behalf. we found a chapel on the fourth

floor. mike put his hand of a doorknob. are you ready? i held up our marriage license. ready. he opened the door and we looked arou the they can room. it was so, so sorry. worsehan anything you would see on the vegas bender. even the cheiest elvis impersonator when it'saken one look at the homeot bbc lattice arch over the alar a said, no thanks, i can't bring the kids into this mess. was gl our parents were not there. he on pedestals, allpt at the white plastic molded ith gold spray-paint. the swags of tool that marked off the aisle, which dead-ended in aoldable partition wall behind four ro of chairs were graying under a thick cloud of dust. it was what it was, a fluorescent lit conference room a modified by the lowest bidder. we cross the threshold, our heels sank into the maroon

carpet. mike and i sat on the whe folding chairs and held hands while we waited for the official to show up. my palms started to sweat going amerenue soldier meant marrying a military as well. i would have the gernment as an ever-present mother-in-law. i.t. accompli cannot rafted tappen the sigir influence within our marriageould broaden further still. if the army was to be intractable third party, the war would pay for it. it started to feel awful crowded in an empty chapel. ie the there is this of a new bride, exted butterflies but with an added overlay of fear. what would t future be like threats? could they giveim what he needed? did we know each other well enough to make this work? i have almost gotten as far was someone else and backed out. s i really army spouse material? statistically speaki yes, the average army spouse is under 35, 95% as bossesre female he marity of whites work but was

i really up to the task? the justice of the ps kemmons the room and we stood. i swlowed my fear and we stepped up to the sheep garden store wyden arch. we excnged our bows on the banks of force a weitz ensign dimare the degette and add their nameto the city registry and with the k said was official. in skness and in health, and war and peace we were wed. in quickunz crib ceremy by live began erratical ship, not just from singleton to wife but from free flowing civilianship to tilin spouse. the household member who c's the pls goes a long ereever the army since the soldier. the day i really became an army wife carried the mark of bureaucratic flourish when i receive my military i.d. otherwise known as my dear scarred, t tents enrollment eligibility reporting system card. with our mage to degte in hand mic and i went to the schwin office at fort meade

where thelerk readed us gormley. mike said she is here for her dependent id. the clerk shook her head and said no, we don't call spouses dependents anymore. the stereotype mitary spouses at divisibly pass dot appen@ant low geppart bypassed the the necessary paperwork r the my social security card,y passport, mike's id and our marriage t to degette. from there my information would be processed and reduced to a digitizedode on the back of the card that could only be read by a scanner, detail that was compressively bensen bakely orwellia yes sir, yes dears. in no time at althe clerk had entered my vital data and e card was published in ready to int. she pointed a small webcam my way. straight into the camera and on theount of three, smile. while we waited for the card to print she said don't lose this.

you needed for everything, to shop at the commissary, thex in the liquor store and to get your medical. apparely i was very much dependent on this card. my card srted chugging out of the printer. this was going 100 times faster than any trip i had taken to the departme of motor vehicles. ..

>> and they said this of 12 lax they gave me a list of preparations show up shaved, and moisturize coming her claim and pedicure in medicare and face three of make up. w taken to playboy studio west and nerhown ishat a tinsel curtain a strippe pol and it video monitors. i changed into a white terry cloth robes and michelil into the makeup room by demerged

two hours a refuge her and mela anderson makeup job, two rows of false eyeliners day sashes i have lived lo and fake lipstick i could not believe the transformation i fel i was wearing a clay mask dae hooked like a drag queen. i built the my robe and wander around the wardrobe area while the stylus decided how to dress me they ran a store room with lingerie eight stacks' high eve, should build its animal pri feathers you could imagine it was like peeking inside barbie's dream clauses-- closet using their own esoteric professional metric chose to out that me with rhinestone necklace is black platform sandals and

blk mashed. the photographer was playboy relented wch was a bleing and a curse her i knei could unt for himo take wonderful picres we spent five hours sotingor one am hp was clearly used to much more eerienced models and his frustration became obvious. mcdonald -- madonna waste the major arms overhead, i am stretching so far of board i am about to break and have the cafta kerry jimmy to turn this y but i waso anxiou cyclone to the poll like this site escrow on amateur night the most to believe baying is ecap asked me how to pose with my arms over my head. sorry about the gravitational ll, they are real. when we took a break one of

the photrapher's assistant said rehab they beg of many ree's been a buttercups if you want some i could not keep away from them by eight to two dozen during the shoot and to this day whenever i hr madonna otic that i crave pealut butter. [laughte hours later we finally wrapped i w exhsted fling that i had completed a systemic circuit this was business as usual for everybody else another dayt the cheesecake factoy. but i waited nored i was part o they part of a feminine tradition ail 1996 was slated to run only there was one thing wrong, it dino look like me at all. whenhe iue hit the stand my dear friend's dad called me and said i had to flip through the magazine ur times define the look like it xas will man's wife.

[laughter] the clerk handed me my new military ids stilh warm fm the limited taste laminating machine. here you goa'am i was ficially a, ma'am now is part of thereener mac a look down at thehought of loading on a light brown backound did not look a thing li me. i pu the cloud -- caon a wallet the process t integrate s the powerful ke was gaining mcheshe suppt of my husnd but the for a vacation o legitacy ofhe institutional might the sense of a foundation beneath my felt offsethe sacrices i am askor his career progre nonmember 17 more than 1 milon song and other womdn married to military men tt i will follow you anywhere was not the abstract romtic notion

it was now a way o life. onne januaay 2003 when mikeeceived his deployment orders he was calm alrdy had the what if looming over us. had expected him to be more otiona i don't know. the only lt his cool twice. thnight he got hisrders i shuffled around making choolate chip cookier. i p them in a plus -- plasticiplocag when he found them on the counr he came into the droom with tears in his eyes. -- later i found him sitti the side of t bed. i do not want to see any mor dead people hand iol me ce of the burndd andaned coses andhe first infantry division of the gulf war at the end the 100 hour gpnd

for he was ming a final drive northeast when he went across the highway of death the iraqi had jammed by way as they try to get back to save the. mike and the soldiers aived just fr hours after the road attacked by coalitaon aircraft vehicles were still smoking and some still have orangelames marcos the air smelled of burning fuel and less. amid the twisted body pts wkrd caldelabras, lverware women's dresses. in the backike disvere of body of a kuwti hostage the hands bound behindis back he d been sho the teme and the bullets flew o t back of ad andlood and c@unks of brain splatr e car up on wall street.

his days at a peaceful expression by s se wa a photograph of lovely woman with a birthday cake next to a toddler he was not sure he it if h pleaded for his life or viaimpl beg to to see before hwas st. i never asked to read anything he had seen in cbat bef that are aft i did not fl it wasithi my right to press for details @nd one men at intuition and guided me to sue. his ructance seemed entirely hamid berkshire accepted that myusband, like many peopl@@ preferred torocess his miserynd pte. will fel better if you talk about a but wheneve think abou it i think, no. he will tell mehat hets to tell me when he wantq to if he wants to but iouldot as even though i was curious

see the wl beten us that experience my gorld from his it was part of a wor of likely not ever know. would be enterg that world agaivery soon and would be shut out. i would know little more about it than a space on t candar, 365@@ ds, 52 days -- 365 days, 12 monthsone year. and the zipper was undone and open we. he tried to convinc me this deploynt w not a b deal after a f wks ofrain atort dixhe battalion ulstart out doing arief@@ in in toait then go north and spenthe rest o the time that spdnd intelligence supporin baghdad. hisas tsuppor but commander with psonnel tbe the righarm man. he assured me over and over he

wono aanger if i was not convinced of was le ightedy hi goi t baghd u.s.ust acro t rd who rll kne h farhis nflictouead? i i could fit you in heaid. hen you l me now beuld sold pigsty would atta you. was joking at a fear it was in ontfe so bighat tt wathe on the legacy around and i wasfraid of so my thif l knong whao do n his absenc not kning, just t knowing. i gave him s batry oper digital alarm clock to kee buy his bedside. it has a trmeter he test th buttons is sai that to be inresting the temrature can get over 120rees.

yokiddin and no. he continuedacking@@ i hd a set of ts my palm it was foation that reduc whasn two statiics name, socialecurity mber, bloope a religion. the chance a timelessility symbol until i remembered they're design to ctn as a toeag should hbe ll inbat. o daysoree ay -deployedamilsbut ofse dor ay readess etin we're briefed invspt of life during saratci losticalo aego dealing withtional llou this was my fst time inctin wit mitary e w-line psat alert ting noteou es rnd whilehe more ssoned setbackoong

fo if theyav heardt the unit mee run by voluntee brom the mmunity seices bro line stirr older woman sd to notush out and buy aew catch big screen tv. her earnest john your compatot tol us i o job to make sur that our return servicemenid not feelhreatened bour warti autonomyhdet srt upper m@n's confidencby securing burnedud lightbulbs so you sheame back.ng to fip wle togethl k m house and no assistance ineede thfartyders sd that ases we may over rounded agitedf news reports so we@@ shod nl bad aboutanng to oid

tesion radiof it made younxious it waq oka wehould no fee guilty for protti yourself emotionally. my joinery just-in-time for the meritor relatis pof. sex and iacy can be strained wn soldier retus hoie the older woman urged us in an accent let nature takits course. back at our apartment he turned down theirepof lock ceifate. isur marriage i smiled back row h just shown a brother my pents at thanksgiving aouncilg ou marrge we thejored on new yorktoppg by his mother house thenis father'sla seading t goodews. the dogther into the box co here is xour we of attorney, you will need this. what is it?

isy wl. heel out to me but iid not wan toch shireck o fuse. edated o the bed pbe io know if it was persti or nialut a starct wreorced to preparfor the end of ou live togher before i h even begun. [alause] our redog onime? that is such a downer are lik to continuous of paying happier are you felt hostage? ths what happens in your my friend and come toy readg. i willuy you lottery tickets. he is a ploy he com home in

reasonably goo sha was to say l of the scars were on the inside en remove two west that is like being drop kied into a four couer have no personal connection and s the most of the five boarded a rocsh to jupiter broke i started do g with wistful for my a o life a stripper whichs aad sign with you lk back at it reemed familritmest because territy that i you. h a yearning for somhi so this is wt haen >> t ladyets in for free dragon'sike toocal strip club cd radiseand. is it is a boxinjoined a silelace whunky smelling carpet and dark walls totally nude which means no

alcohol. the bouncer chked our id's we grabbed os oft co a tried to getnto it. going a strip club wit your m isn interesng lamaza tessa i could tell he was uncfortable thed over and whispered ion know wre to look. [lauter] the girls work theirn the bar. there nothi eiting me t see totalemal nity maybe ie that kids myself but it is like being in bed bath a beyond aing the me lenr in the kitchen at home. i have e of those. [laur] reaahed e answer i hae not had a wha negive in mhand li ts ishe gbler'r i of aood your fgers

te @lack fm counting out th bills on the dressing rm floo this was not one of those adrenalin pumping money nights when the music was blasting and the athletic rolls retickin$100 bills it isust ather bum tuesday ghtou have to rattleoue cato earn enough ch to cover your utility bill. then backstop inront of t startled me. i ampen-minded yan put in a fetis me b jesus gred hatto s a pregnant wan working in a strip club. i know pregnant women can run five dayand hi the palaian trailut l, when sewnme poppin a allet, teetering in high hee a ia mini dress pull dowto expose thd dresser 12 tker to a tropical ian not paradise island where she can sip wit

her feet up and beefnd and givehe pina colad ge is lady a publicized stapp. we tipper 20 bucks she smile and wasful. arry eyed cultqrd critics sist a strip club the dancer has all the perhe is the one in a controlled b it i lovely faasy thatn flatters me. if it is back and theancers are sy and every wts your bit bouque onraq if one guy gets a little out of line emotion to the bouncer and did this yrat y kn the customers are like the yshere will be anotheb long a no one will get over on you b your power is only as great as your demanif you have no takers you haveo game you do not want to make comproses to suffethrugh conversation with a maho

has roaming hands. maybe led anoth customer get a littl closer withhe mey isight and the pressures on you eat crab oro home br you haveea the expression ofer's cannot ach users? exacy. whatever sex period god is hard to enjoy it because of the seer corporate henew were gir pouring in ery day it is a renewing source o not goodnoh trying go through ht bodies men shop hong days so big the girls are into wha but ife catches them on a gd night they're io it they ma even beovijg it. at smallercentage is just enouo ephehine running. there is something about dancing that sets u free even if you feel like sla then smoke an the on you

have aacrespacor you can put ase gender politics yes, sir, 10 close me to dance a certain way. no touching yourself. do not bd over. but wiin that isimple joyf movement of shedding close and inhibitions walled f from the qilly judgments. one th sdes, or whoev mething to our because this isou sg, your, your time even though you are off the ation blocj sometimes there is the solitude that i yos the wa. like caged bird that sings, the dancing gls danced record is notbout a baerina discipline, it is the heartland hard bargain parker here is what i got. t you take itnow you'r not gettingll of me ths

little piece, the beauty of this moment in the spotlight is my own secret pleasure my own sweet eape. whenever dirty busins m happen the audience the rformance year. [applause] i am openg the floor to questiols i certaily welcome nouestio that is why just pse so we can come to u then we are good to g >> my first queion for yohat wasr gges misconception about marryin into t military? >> my bgest misconction was vy informed by hollywood where a lotf the sces miliry pernnel is a lot of yelling so i honestly did not think tt many military leid not hav@ the inside

voice. i gotere i aa'am thi wi be awesome my tt within the first 10 mines ihoug i wou have a migraine. but toind t se-depretingeoan committed tohat they d it was absolutely sling because i w expecting ous greyndnuckle agging eight sobos to that awfuls thes with a commitmt to service, it wastartng and a continuixperience of a worst assumptions prove wronthemo theost pleasebo so and a aot more intellectual a emotional. gooduestn. thank you >> wt was the reaction o

cided to writehis but? and what was teaio when it came out? and eir reaction into how realing it w? lar rit aidemoirou think you can anticipate th response b y reallcan't progress course th is a moir about my a mriage i thout theetter part of spormanship would be to let husbandnd read a first. i understandeoe are territorial about the wor they fl it is theirht to te the story by larger goal is to say mry. [laughter] so hado give him vote. there w n much heand change. the are a few places that araittle touy for him they s he had ptsd a doot know if the has the disorder becaus he ner missed a day of work were never became so

anguisd th h could not dyun h diave one incident the flashck but ow s aives that the husbands have flashbacks but to goublic makes a app foldlelthough he i t at intellectu a publied academic he c do pushups on s fingertips but that e flhbackes them feel vuerle because soldis are not used to letting people know about tha gface because you areuppod to be rey. ande hates the strip club part i did not want pple to know. and doesot reflect poorh on w any way. i don tnk moqt men would knowhere to look if they went witthei wifand it is obably a fryypical response is startling t me, this

is my second memoir. th sheer volume and intensity from the other wiv, is is blowing away i get women who are in tears becau it is all the stuff that i sort of think about but bec ay couer conversation is no prescribed you really follorobert's rules of order you do not tk about sex or rigion ur money. we're fran about the family's, water husbands are doin and how it is dficult for us but there's souch s left out. so the sense of readiness to handle anything they gamface leaks over to theives who there is a wholeevel of coersation we do not have if you're lucky to make good friends who will break through the wall formality, that is great but but then you get to a cerinost and you jt don't me those wen comment they feely have that

nvsaonit me when theq read the bk i going pce not averse publicly.buto and tt, for me, you also do not know what will be the most warding but fore, it is not have araed itl b geifg through to the oth vecause what they're respdi to isow you do with when yo man coees home fr war a he i dferent and h@ t do with the fact that you do not opined about thearnd there is the assumption that litary wives abe outgoing but one of the p three stresss i ming and you do that every two years and we do that in a constant churn a we have a slogan, sock it up and drive on. buthere is some muc of life at i don't feelike you

should because that the litts your feelings of i can get beyond the suck it up psalm of -- to talk to a friend in is not a thi i could have imagined sohat ar the positive but one negative respon although i have them part of the west community sie 2003 and he graduating fele cadets in their ridings and others havee to take mentor ship from my husba, i el verylose to west and fe like its part of our marriage and myeart and@ soul i had aeang schedul and they cancel the just because i used to be a stripper. that was shocking becse i felt soommitted to talking ofhe issues of the military familyo talk about t "l.a. times" op-ed page or slate so

make that a persol platform then to have all of that overlooked for some time machine factor l's go back at 1994 and dismissing you because of that? it made me feel sad because it makesho i was then overshadows y country should i made now so i coeld notave anticipated that paragraph first they did not say i thought the test my a boo stifks i said am worthless as a writer. but then i fou out it was moral judgment i was shocked use west is the institution them higher learning wepe rear edtcating the future leers of the army so i feel academically thei should be part of wyss of@@

prices, backgrounds and just because i write a budget that does not meandvocaci don't think any of you could say authentilly i am writing a conversi and dialectic or asking soldiers to abandon their commissions to hit the ll. that was a littde startling. but it is what it is and what of the chapters is about my fear of my past coming ck to bite me as an army wife and lo and behold the day of reckoningas come. >> first of all, tt is itssed up tha they canceled my apologies on behalf of them. en you set out t write this, did you feelik them because writing is such a delicate and a weird thing, did you feel that you had to self cents or zero or be aware that youight do

t@at? >> absutely. every er ctendshat we write aut your life and the peop and it and not writing about your imaginary friends or making a pay fictional universityr you hav people saying n gertrude is the dy down the street t they're always ting to define what is a real we're trying to read the detectives that is part of the joy. a couple of concerns onis set by road about people i knew i had to conceal appropriately and i have so successful people come of to me and sayhat guys to life to fou he washeating on her it is this mess? it is so totally not this mean ery time asked me ty are wrg so i feel that is small ctory. fact, oneuy that i did write abo, thinking that

everybody would find you on facebook a my former neighbor was sol wonrfly with three tremendous marital crisis he sai is thime and my wife? heid not even recnize himself. thas good. but i was so freaked out about whatrmy people and army familyembers don't talk about that that became one of the running themes and topix instead of being intimidated d limited why not talk about the restraints? in a way that impulse to self sensor became something of a driving force for the book beuse i was thinking rather than bed down t the separate army wa the oy talks about acceptable things like kids and longer. baskets d volunteer work and

recipes and loving h husband and countrand family, why not talk about why we don't talk about it? >> it became the snake eating its tail and it has helped me and here is another thing we don't talk about. e of the ways the wrotehe book is i have a lot of good iends online and they are civilian, some of them are militaryrats but some of em do not have the connection i said if you have the opportunity to corner milita wife what would u ask? bygone a list of 40 questions that is one of the back books-- backbo of the book and oneajor question is your behavior police? what can you talk about? how close your you watch? at first i was intimidat by something tha became very obvious very quily what people wanted to know about

the cut as we always see the movies where there is some creepy genal sing don't ll anybody you know, how things willo. we have that damage of that entitynd part of thas professionalisin a radically diverse organizati like the military we have a different race is coming at religions and regional backgrounds. there is something to be said about being polite abo topix and ao military people pressionally have taken and the growth to serve t vilian because you do not talk about the mission it is talking smack and also affects the civilian people like the wives and the cmuni so it is fascinating because a first thought there were havi secret talk about the war meetings i thought there

washe amazing think tank grps getting together pounding curnt events and started to ask my frids on the post they said honestly i have never had a conversation about what we think about the war or what it does to our families and the strugg and the loneliness and isolation we are frank about that but there is now opinion asperger if you do not have a opinion then you may as welsit down bause you don't c so it was very strange for me to have that complete reversal and i still ruggle i havput my foot in my mouth so maly times i am sure people running tallies like how bad was that? i do not know wt t reward

uld be m a muslim more exile. i stepped to the ban i think that is frly common r people who are new to militar cu that is a great question. thank you. okay. we will wrap up. thank you so much for coming. this ireat. it is so ne to have you hear. [applause]

>> booktv presents after words the hrlong intervi program where we invite a guest ht to interview the author of a new book neal basco talks about the 15 year srch of

that. >> ht: and the book "hunting eichm how a band of survivors and a young spy ency chased down the world's most notorious nazi he chnicles the ss officer's life under a false intity and the manhunt that led to his capture. he discusses his book with elizabeth holtzman former democratic congresswoman from new york and the author of the holtzman amendme as well as the nine imeigration to the united states. >> host: my name is elizabeth holtzman a former member of thenited states congress and want toelcome all of you to booktv "after words". i wi interviewed feal bascomb a prominent author about hi new bookhunting eichma" brass a member of congress that was invold in covering the presence of not

the war criminals site rd to the holtzman amendment that bars not the war criminals from our country and created a special unit and the department of justice torack down not the war criminals in america. especially was some of the files and the files are in here want to sta by saying i like your book very much in is the interesting fast pace almost a thriller. >> guest: thank you >> host: it is a kind of book "hunting eichmann". let me ask you, how did you get interested in thi subject? why did you write the but? >> guest: i read about diverse subjects but thi particular book i remember when i was in colle and luxembourg i had met some survivors and ty mention and two maq only until they spoke

or until eichmann was captured and his trial was condued they cld o up and talk abt what happened. itas a watershed moment and ournderandingf the holocaus and our pursuit of war crimals i thought i w a terrificarrative that had an important and significantly positive iact. so i went after it is to make you deded recently? >> i started about two and a half years ago. i started researching coming gointo argenina,srael, seeing what i could fin as well as anseeing if i could g mossad to open up a secondly inrgentina to seek if the argentinian government would op up which they did not with any significant way but if iould find individls who knew eichmann who

participated with his sons to trying to track downhe mossad after his father was captured so once i beg to feelike could sink my teeth intot,wo years ago, i started really started to get into the brass tacks and tting wn and going through the archives. not only in argentina but israel and germany. host: a in t united >> guest: thanks to you. i found theeclassification of the cia files was extremely helpful for me and at least tracking what the cia and what the u.s. governmentnew about eichmann and his escape after 1945. host: i take it the reason y wanted to s if yon get these new sources

with mossad thesrae intelligence svice, th is because you wand new material? there have been otr books written about eichmann. >> whenever i start a project look at whether orot i can break new ground and whether its wor writing about. it i simply fr my nartive standpoint but whether as a urnalist ian uncover n material. it is important to me. >> hos did you? >> uest: yes. [lghte but onef my most significant nding is i found his paport that he used to esca out of europe and make hi way to argentina which made a lot ofews and personally tt was a tremendous disvery for me. >> host: how did you find it? >> guest: hard worknd a of persisten. th is our happens. it was in argentina i raty

about eichmann'sife after the capture and had foughby a lawsuitgainst the israelas ecifly, ed mossad to put them in jail. itas at the upper but it was go but i found the brief mentioned as a turnetaste tiny little article in the argentinian newspar in 1961. i said there is aawsuit so maybe there is ae? i ove lawsuit becse ty compil paper and from my perspective as aournalist and historianhat is a great avenue. so we aed the argentini gornment can receivehe file with tepartment of justice? they saino and we asked again and theyai com bac in six weeks and finally aer six mo they finally revealed the file the actual passport was not in their but they reased it to the

holocaust museum a few weeks later. >> host: that is interesting. les go back to acquaint the listeners w do not kw the details. wh is adol eichmann and why should we be intereste >> gst: adolf eicann was called many this that some call him the architect of the holocaust although i do not go that far he was the orational manager of the holocaust a put i chgen 12 add to the ss to be the constant officials in charg o the transportation of thes to the various concentration o extermination camps as well a th individual tt vas responsible for rounding them up. and one ofis mt signifant operations to give you a gd perspective, in 1944, he was sen to go to

hungary. and rouup the 725,000 jews scattered across the cry and in the efficient way as possible to have them delived eher to exteination camps or work camps. >> host: l.e.t. was said to hungry because germany had just occupied hungary was about two so it was worried that it would defect t the ales as romania had done so they sent in their troops and when they send itheir troops, then came the policy and the pross of rnding up andxterminating the hunearian jewi population of over 700,0 pe. eichmann was in chae of that. >> guesthe was in charg the person to go toho scored a do with hungary officials an orchestrated the plan. his idea waso go to the

outer provinces d work his way toward but if at -- pest. people did not know what was going on. he went in with the troops. he was part of the operation or the invasion. was instrumental because he arrived a few hou after the first oops in his own convoy and began rounding of jews and issuing edicts that the jewh population. >> host: after the court? what happened? beforeou go back he was responsible for rounding up jews elsewhere? >> guest: virtuly every european nation and at the time. hetarted in austria, in the austria and immigrion and deportation and at 193

he was the individual eryone look to in view of the jewish situation. they looked to him as the experts when the germans occupied austria, was there and that is really wre he begato cut his teeth if you were to say it is ch a way of how to gatr the jewish population to deport them. eferytng froutting on the train and stripping them of the long wings to filly when they left his hands and drive uphe camp that was responsibility he was responsible for unknowing where to find a jewish populations and how to strip them. >> host: a get them to t poi* where they would be exterminated? >> guest: yes. he brought them to the door and pushed them through of the

extermination and camps and everything that happened there was off of his agenda but he certainly knew what was happening. >> host: this book has a nice binning and end in the way youalk about a man and hungary at the beginning of the operation to seize eichmann and then at the end of the book ttifies at the trial as a human indidual monstration of what eichmann did d it encapsulates the book. how d you come to the idea of using him? >> guest: of course, we know the horrible atrocities of the

hocaust and the genocide by wanted to put it into a single individual storey. and have it have a connection and back to the end where they testified against eichmann because ielt that the story was one about justice not only for people but individuals. so i found himn the israeli files and know that he testified at t tal himself so i backtrack his story to the very beginning and in the first chapter i go from what eichmann is doing and what his plans are four hungary and bring it down the individual level what it means for a young man who is 18 at the time and his family forced out of their homes and brought

to a makeshift camp a ultima usher onto the train going to rush wet an his whole family perished in assets. except for his brother he was separatednd he has a remarkable story of survival but then he is off the radar. of course, for t jext 15 years he survivesn@ makes his way to israel and becomes a teacher then i bring thi story back to him t s what the the mossad and what is great is the individuals who participated what it meant to the individual that is y the book ended that way. >> host: the other thing t people w play th role to

capture eichmann. we start with him as a key operive to rounding of the extermination of jews and hungary andefore hand with western and central d eastern eope. then after world war ii, what happens? >> hes captured? >> guest: he i captured a couple of times but what the allies did not know is that as wasd by t fouhungary began, nobody knew house side e german goverent that eichmann was the operational manager. heas the one at the nexus o the holocaust many ws. >> host: but somebody else knew that there was an important person? >> host: he is one of the ones that knew that eichmann

played the import and roll so was and told that? >> guest: when he was at the camp that his 10 on was that spilled into an hungary he was told the official was to come and it was eichmann they were assured they would beined they rounded them up for their own protection and from the russians and all would be okay and it was a classic deception that eichmann had planned his operation in. >> ht: after worldar ii, basically the alls did not quite know the petals central role that he played and the destruction of the jews? >> guest: they did not know. and also the pursuit of war criminals after the fall of

berlin, woul not say was robust. they rounded up obviously for the nuremberg trials but the key of mostublic figures wh they did not prepare for and wh they did not pursue affably, for instance, near th end of the war they had 150 people and hunting down war iminals where they had 3,002 began to collect the scientific material as give you an idea of the disparity, tha eventually eventually, e americans a the allies increase the number of people going after pows were war criminals but they did not have a way to idenfy. you have 9 million pows

geany eichmann was one of those. how will you identify them. >> how do know his real name and had you know, what he did? >> guest: exactly >> host: eichmann manages to escape. can you tell us wht you found out that are described in the but? >> guest: basically right afte the war rig after the fall he went to atria. decid he wants to go back to germany. so f h is captured in a makeshift prison with barbwire no higher thanis hip because people did not really want to escape them it wanted help and they wer close were threadbare they we hungry and cold and keeping prisoners was somethin they did not like. he then in his way found his way int germany he was captured once again so for one

year he is in a pow camp and has begun to be interrogated by various oicials and he also hears simultaneously of the nuremberg trial said his aim is popping up heres this individual with the name of adf eichmannnd he knew how many jews were a children a holla t-- holocaust the operational manager. it came out so eichmann thought he needed to escape. e reason i can say eichmann thought, is because of finding autobiography is he had written, he had written several but one in particular i found was 30 pages just on his escape. it was fascinating material.

>> host: who did he write that four? >> guest: it seems like hi own posterity. hopefully will get into this later, but he was an individual who wrote three autobiographies within a thames -- times bana five years. and i am not talking 100 pag but volumes and volumes and volumes. not to mentionis interrogation by the israelis which go 11500 pag. there is actually, again i found this out with initial rearch there's a tmendous amount of material that you can find just forhis point* of the story iris thought this book would initially be abo the huers but i found as i got further into wha i cld tellhe s of eichmann and reallyhe evolution of him as a man for the period during the height of his power to

wher he lives in this district in buenos aires without ter electricity. but to get back to the point* he lived in a forest in germany for roughly fou years, right under the nose of the british occupying powers. he sold eggs two british soldiers if you can believe that then eventually made his way to aentina. >> host: you also ntioned that he was shelled third in a monastery and helped out by a priest on his way out of europe? >> guest: he was. the argentinian part of the story and oth warriminals went to argentina it was a veryomplicat and involved operatio well funded, and had quite a few people involved.

is started and argentine the at -- argentina also involved high level individuals within the catholic church to was supportive, certainly of the individuals of theazi is and did not want to see these good germans captured and put on trial so there you find you have the argentinian government, a catholic church individuals within the catholic church helping and th dormer ss officer and agents who all work together to help eichmann. >> host: eichmann escapes he is on a bow and gets to argenta th what happens? we just want to set the sta out ultimately he is found to when he arrives and argentina

and 1950. there was aetwork there to help them how th got him the identity card. >> host: a network of nazi sympathizers? >> guest: and the government. and good government supported companies employ individuals such as eichmann. there is a company he was then buenos aires six months than they shipped him off to a place northwest of the capital hundreds of miles to work for a company which and the time was really the german company for recent immigrants. so he is in this remote district and is 700 miles away and he is weari a poncho and

he is completely safe. completely save. his critical air, he made several but eventually brought s family over two years after he arrived in to argentina meeting his wife and three sons who athat time were in their early teens. what he did not do is have them change their name. because as they later told the mossad i would never want my family to live fore although they have been lying for him, for years, particularly his wife. eichnn was a living endure the name of ricardo cleamons but the suns were living under the original name. >> host: so he is in the boonies far away rom the