hillary clinton. just -- >> [inaudible] >> guest: it was, and i think it goes back to being a kid raised in the atlanta suburbs looking at the '60s radicals and looking at the world from my parents' side. ten years later i'm embarrassed about some of the things i said about bill clinton. my goal and i think where -- i think i've gotten there at 46 now as opposed to 30, at 29 when it starte@ campaigning is to understand that everybody has something to bring to the table and understanding, too, that while we couldn't stand bill clinton and he couldn't stand us anymore --ean, h hated us as muchs we hated him. they're trying to undo all the great things that we achieved in the 1960s and beyond. we now look at each other, and i really do, i really like hillary clinton so much because we've

taken this ark. and she, too, is not the same hillary clinton that came to washington in993. we underand that we banged each other's heads, but we balanced the budget, we reformed welfare, we paid down the debt, we saved medicare. bill clinton and joe scarborough and the rabid right together, we showed the genius of james madison. >> host: i agree. >> guest: this is what washino is supposed to be. this is how we're supposed to work, and i found out, peggy, that when theresident and congress hated each other, it actually worked better because all of his garbage projects we ruck out of the bills, all of our pork barrel projects he struck out of the bill, and it's this creative friction that madison and our founding fathers understood. >> host: i agree. if barack obama is a fortunate man, but if he were more fortunate, he'd he a republican congress to work

with. >> guest: you are exactly right. >> host: they would temper him domestically, they would be reasonable about his foreign policy, and good things would follow. >> guest: d george w. bush would have been auch better president wi a democratic congress. >> host: in fact, he was better, i would say. that was a great interview. thanks, joe, very much. >> guest: thank you. >> jason kersten recounts the criminal exploits of art williams, a counterfeiter who by using over the counter materials was able to forge the most secure bill ever created, a $100 bill known as the 19 96 new note. mr. williams produced millions of counterfeit dollars over 14 years until being caught by the secret service. the program was recorded during nps "the diane rehm show" in washington d.c. it's anour. >> you know, this guy's

childhood beats everything i have ever read in my life. honestly. >> yeah, it was atrocious. >> i found myself thinking, no wonder, you know? no wonder he had such a terribleterrible life. my god, his father, his mother, everybody was nut si. >> it was crazy. >> yeah. >> shen you meet him, you're astounded that he is as well adjusted as he is. >> and he's got how many more years to serve? >> he'll be be out hn 2015. probably mid 2015 if he's -- >> maybe. >> -- if his behavior's good. >> exactly. >> 85 percent time. >> okay. okay. t you gotta talk about his childhood. i'm telling you. >> sur >> when i read about that, i thought, oh, that poor kid. i mean, he, he just really, he didn't know which way was u

literally. >> no, not at all. he was really just bush whacked by fate. >> yeah. yeah, absolutely. and yet, i mean, his father started out sort of reasonably sort of. >> trying to do the right thing. >> yeah, exactly. >> there were legitimate jobs that his father held. >> right. >> but his father was a criminal himself ultimately. >> yep, absolutely. absolute. it's a great cover. >> oh, isn't it beautiful? i was so happy when i saw that. >> just wonderful. you never know what you're going to get. >> yeah. who designed it for you? >> i've got to get her name. >> todd. well, the author photograph is todd -- >> yeah,hat's my friend todd. >> jacket design is ray. >> never metim but he's great. [laughter] >> no, i couldn't stop reading this yesterday. i was doing all kinds of stuff, and i just found myself thinking, oh, my heavens.

i can'believe all this. okay. ♪ ba ♪ >> herwe go. thanks for joining us, i'miane hm. arthur williams is a craftsman who learned his trade from man nicknamed da vinci.

this particular da vinci taught the age-old art of counterfeiting. under his tutelag williams went on to become one of t most skilled counterfitters of the last quarter century. his masterpiece, a perfect replica of what was once the most secure u.s. bank note ever made, the 1996 $100 bill. journalist jason kersten details the story of this master counterfeiter in a new book. it's titled "th a of making money." he joins me in the studio, pe you'll join us as well, call us on 800-433-8850. send us your e-mail t dr show at wamu.org. jason kersten, what a story

you've told. >> thank you. >> i must say in reading about his childhood i found myself thinking, this has got to be the most ghastly way a kid can be brought into this world one could ever imagine. talk about him as a young boy. >> well, that was one of the most surprising discoveries as i researched the book and got to know him better. he started out as quite a gifted young lad. he had skipped two grades by the ti he was 11. >> very, very bright and always at the top of h class. >> yeah, right. one of the things that sort of developed that in him was that his family was constantly moving around all the time. not a very stable family at all. his faer was an on a off ook himself, a paper hanger, and his mother was mentally ill. and his father also d a mistress, ande was constantly going back and forth between the

two, so that was really the only stability he had as a child which was his mind a his creativity. now, when his father abandoned the family completely at the age of, when art was 12 years old, just right after that the mom was diagnosed with bipolar schizophrenia. >> she really had a total breakdown. >> oh, yeah. >> couldn' feed the kids, was sitting there just totally demoralized. >> so they wound up in the bridgeport homes which was a housing project on the south side of chicago and really just a coue months after they got there there was just no food in the house because his mother had an episode. wasn't taking her medication, and forwo days the children were starving. >> the were hungry., weeping -- >> yeah, of course. >> just an animal need. and art being the oldest of three kids and at that time he was about 12, he goes out io the streets. he doesn't wan to go to social

servic because he's afraid they'll take his mother away which had happened to him before. and he starts knocking on the parking meters on hall stead street. and he hears the change, and he thinks, if i can just get that, i can get some food. so he builds a little key that'll unlock some of the change boxes, gets about 50 bucks, and him and his little brother go to the grocery store and come back with food. of course, he saves the day, and his mother's very proud of him for that. and that is the first crime he ever committed was out of survival. and being in thoserojects where there's also a gang, he quickly realizes that's how people are making money there. >> well, andof course, he raids many, many parking meters before the police finally catch up and realize that somebody is unlocking these meters. so they put new locks on the

meters. he saves that little key that he devised. what a brilliant guy he was. >> yeah. >> to begin with. i mean, his artistry. he entered a, an art competition came out on top. >> this was when he was in a boys' home for a period when his mother was hospilized, and he had wound up in a boys' home, and his school -- he was still attending the same school, and they had an art contest. one of the older boys in the boys' home helped him learn how to draw and helped hone his abilities as an artist. so he enters the contest, and he wins. [laughter] >> h wins the contest, and we e not here to glorify a crimin, but on the other hand this young man had so much talent. he was so gifted. had he been able to put thi talent to use in som other way,

he could clearly have legitimately made quite a name and quite a living for himse. >> i think so, and i think that's onef t real tragedies of the story. and one of the things i try to explore and ca@ture was this transformation from this brilliant, glowingittle boy into an arch criminal. >: we're talking abo a new book, it's titled "the art of making money: the story of a master counterfeiter." do join us, 800-433-8850. send usour e-mail to drshow at wamu.org. we are talki about a man named arthur williams who did become a master countfit. he is now serving time in prison after he was ultimately caught,

and we'll, of course, thrghout the hour be bringing you more of this story. we do look forward toearing from you. 800-433-8850. he actually shared his secrets with you. >> he did. i had to keep pressing and pressing him. he was very reluctant at first. he had spent years perfecting his craft and especially with the '96 new note which was his masterpiece -- >> why d he particularly go after that one? >> i think there were a couple reasons. i think first and foremost he wanted -- he was proud of the job he did on this bill. and he wanted recognition, i think, just for his pure craftsmanship and abilities. i think woven into that motivation was also thedea that he wanted to stop. he wanted to quit. d by, you know, by confessing

to a journalist his method and his secrets, in many ways he was committing criminal suicide raising his profile that high certainly didn't do anything to keep him off the map of the secret service in the future. so those were two motuations -- motivations going on there. >> tell me exactly what led to his ability to become such a master counterfeiter? >> well, picng up where we left off before, as he goes into these projects, he starts committing street crimes, and he joins a local gang. pretty much everybody in the bridgeport homes had to join that gang unless you wted to get beat up on the way to school. and the gang members start getting him into car theft. we can steal the cars right next to the meters, that's more mone so he gets into that. and he's quickly on his way to prison or death. and his mom's boyfriend who she

meets while she's working in a diner across the street takes an interest in him and sees him going down a very dead-end criminal road as a street criminal, and he is a master counterfeiter himself, da vinci. and o day after art gets out of juvenile hall, he says, you know, art had just had a young -- he's a teenager dad at this point. he has a son. >> how old is he? >> he's 16. >> ah. he's already got a son, and he's committed a crime. what has he been caught for? >> he's been caught for auto theft, but he's underage, so he only does a couple months. when he comes out, da vinci is right there, and he says, you know, if you're willing, i can show you something that's a lot safer than what you've bn doing, and a day later da vinci brings him into his print shop. >> and da vinci is a fellow who has been success isful for a

long time -- successful for a longime counterfitting. what kinds of bills is he unterfeiting? >> da vinci's specialty like art's, was the 100 dollar bill. this was the little heads as we rememberhem as opposed to the big head bens which we currently have. so da vinci has been doing this for many years when he decides to bring on art as his apprentice. and that's how counterfeiting works with a master counterfeiter. there's always the master and the apprentice. this is a legacy crime. someone has to show you this because there's advanced printing techniques, it's very difficult stuff, and art was very intimidated by it at first. but after they did their first batch, about $10 o ,000 of $100 bills and he sees those bills coming off da vinci's press, he readses he's looking at a method

of svive far better than what he's been doing. >> so what does it take for him to learn this craft? >> a lot of patience. there are many stages and processes in high quality counterfeiting, and this was in the older days they were using a big offset press, so he has to learn about photography, he has to learn to photograph negatives to create a plate, he has to learn about mixing inks, he has to learn about the qualities of a convincing currency paper that can pass. many hundreds of steps to create a convincing bill, and he's overwhelmed by it at first. so it's something that iou gradually learn over time. >> and he learned it so well. the fbi, the secret service, people just could not tell the difference. you've got one bill with you. >> i do. >> would you pass it to me, please? >> sure. >> how did he pass these bills?

>> well, that's another interesting thg about art williams. not only was he a magnificent counterfeiter, he was a astonishingly good passer. one of the things da vinci told him was never spend yr own money, but after he did the '96 note, he decided he wanted to take his own money out. so what he and his girlfriend would do is they would hit malls all across the united states. >> jason kersten, we're talking about his new book. it's titled "the art of making money." ♪ >> that is one handsome $100 bill. >> it is. and it's funny, if you have -- you can see if you have any doubts about it and you hold it up to the light, you see what you expect to see, the security strip and the water mark. >>nd he could do all that. >> yeah. >> he could do all that. >> yeah. that's his. he made that with his own hands.

>> did he give it to you? >> there's a story behind that bill. >> okay. >> it was stuffed into a journal somebody had given me as a keepsake. >> i sent you a tweet. >> okay. you sent me a tweet. why bother -- what's your queson? >> i've always wondered how much it costs to make these phony bills. >> yeah, okay. >> interesting. i don't know the exact number. >> you don't know the answer. >> i can talk @bout some of the things he d to get the materials, that's for sure. his scam for the paper is extraordinary. >> 30 cents on the dollar? >> that's what he would sell them for. >> oh, that's what he would -- okay. "the a of making money" is the book we're talking about. it's the story of a master counterfeiter, a man whose name is arthur williams. he's currently serving time in

prison, he'll be out when, jason kersten? >> his scheduled release date is 2015, i think january of 2015. that's full time. you have to do 85 percent in the federal system. with good behavior he should be out mid 2013. >> where is he serving? >> he just got transferred to big spring, texas. >> and what kind of conditions is he under? >> this, i believe, is a minimum to mium security. >> what does that mean? >> it means that the worst of the worst are not there. it's bunk style housing. they enjoy more freedom than, you know, a medium to m. since he is not considered -- >> it ain't club fed. >> it's not considered violent crime. >> not at all. >> all right. we've gotten a tweet from sandra who says, why bother counterfeiting the new, more

secure bills when the old ones are still legal tender? >> thas true. he would occasionally do the older bills. one of the reasons he did the newer stuff was because it was so convincing when people saw the water mark and saw the security strip that things moved much fter, and he could raise the price on his bills when -- retailed them to criminal organizations and drug dealers. >> how often do people look closely at $100 bills? >> n often much. >> -- enough. >> yeah. >> and it's funny, looking is sort of the established norm. really the feel is going to tell you more than anything whether it's genuine. >> may i take that out? >> yes, you can. your fingerprints are now on that bill. >> and what does that indicate? >> if you feel the portrait part of the bill, on genuine currency you're going to find millions of tiny ridges, and that comes from

the press they use. it's a very expensive process, and it leaves the ink raised on the surface of a bill. you notice the feel of this bill you have in your hands is flat. that's a dead giveaway of what's probably a counterfeit bill or it's very old, very, very old, but even very, veroldls tend to have some texture to them. >> okay. how much ds it ct to make this $100 bill? >> you know, i never actually sat down with art and calculated his expenses. and he never did either. he wasery obsessed with the craft and doing it well. expense wasn't something that he worried about too much because he knew that once he had it perfect he could just make more of them. but to give you an idea of the lengths that he would go to to make these bills, obtaining paper was o of his best scams. and the paper that he uses, it passes the pen test. so when you put that

anticounterfeiting pen on that bill, it's going to mark yellow, and you're going to be completely convinced it's real. and the way he found this paper, anhe found that there are only certain places he could get it. and so -- >> you're not going to tell us now, is that right? >> oh, i can tell you what he did. >> okay. >> he would show up to the loading docks often posing as a schoolteacher or a sunday schoolteacher or sometimes a student himself saying he was working on a school project, and he would a for what's called the butt roll. an these are at big printg houseshere the paper comes in rolls that weigh a cple tons. the butt rol is that last little bit left onhese giant rolls, caneigh a cple hundred pounds. so he would beg for the paper posing as a sunday schoolteacher. >> interesting. >> and usually they'd give it to him. >> how much did these printing presses cost? >> his printing presses? >> yeah. >> his offset presses -- well, the most expensive one he ever

had was about $14,000, and that was -- >> i wonder if he paid for it with rl cash. [laughter] >> well, i know how he got that one. that one he got for fre because it was taken off theloor of mccormack place in chicago. because every year there's an anal printers convention, and he was connected to people who work there, and so this was a real inside job. that was a stolen press. >> a stolen press, okay. now, tell me how he used the money. u started talking about a shopping spree he went on with his partner. >> right. two ways he'd clean this money. the first thing, he had compliants that he would -- clients that he printed for and wod sell to them for0 cents the dlar. and they were from the chinese mafia, russian maya -- mafia, and so you have regular clients, and he'd also printxtra for

himself usually after one of these big deals, and he and his girlfrie or sometimes a group of friends would drive around the country, and they'd go to opping malls where if you buy an item worth 10 or 15 dollars, you're getting back $90 in real currency. with three or four people in two hours they cld pull $5,000 worth of real money out of the maul. and what's interesting is that, of course, they have arunk full of stuff they've gotten from the mall. >> yeah. >> and then they quickly got into donating that to the lvation armies or churches in the same towns because they felt like -- he h grown up poor, and seeing all this stuff go t waste was horrible to him. that became almost as addictive as counterfeiting itself, he told me. >> really? >> yeah. he really got off on this robin hood thing. >> so it wasn't as though he'd take this stuff and then return it for cash, he would take this

uff and donate it to worth organizations? >> yeah. no, he's going to charity bins basically. >> so in other words, he was feeling guilty about his crime. >> well, it's funny. as it says in the book, a therapist years later asked him about that, and he said, well, you know, maybe that's a good assessment, but i'd have to feel guilty abo counterfeit anything the first place for that to be tree. >> and he didn't. >> he only had guilt about the effects onis family and friends. >> which was? >> he witnessed a criminal lifestyle take over for lot of them. everyone around him who saw the money was spendin it. all of his friends, many of his family, and they sort of got sucked into the crime, too, because that money looks and feels so real that they got accustomed to this that it was al. and in art's mind he spent so much work on that that to him it was real money. it was money that he had sweated over and slaved over.

and counterfeiting is a very addictive crime. they say the recidism rate for counterfeiters is high or than that of heroin addicts. >> so it really gets into the mind and blood -- >> almost a sexual rush, they say. >> here's an e-mail from gregory in salt lake city who says why is it soard to make a good counterfeit? it would seem that with modern technology making a convincing co would not be that hard. >> right. well,nyone who's ever tri it could probably tell you why it's so hard. with the modern technology, and art incorporated some of the modern thnology into his bills, you know, with using computer programs like photo shop a high end scanners he did a combination of the offt and theodern stuff, but there are aot of security measures build into copiers, more and more every d, to prevent this.

and, you know, why is it so hard? go dn to your kmart, and you see next to every register there's a really bad counterfit, and usually it's made on poor quality paper and barely passes. it's easy to pass one or twoad bills. doing it very, very well like he did requires tremendoqs work. >> and here's another e-mail that is from steve who says, did you have any ethical issues writing this book? >> no, i didn't. i worried maybe thereas a minute where i worried that i was glamourizing the art of counterfitng, but once i got into his life -- and i think that that's really the core of the book. it's not art as a counterfeiter, it's art's story and the story of his family. there was nothing glamorous about it. this was a hardtory to write. i mean, there are parts of it that are gut wrenching, and it was ultimately his quest to find his father again that was the

driving force for me. >> it's interesting that he says and you quote, i felt huge sense of power, more power than i had ever felt in my life. he was powerless as a child. of course this gave him a sense of power. >> yeah. that was after doing the first batch with da vinci when he suddenly had that ney an his hand and passed his very first counterfeit note which he stole from the pile they had made. >> oh, he stole it from da vinci? >> yeah,a vinci had not begin him any of the counterfit. he said, no, i'll pay you for this, but you're not going to go out there passing counterfit. your mom would kill me was basically the sensitivity. but art snuck one from the pile, and the moment that bill passed, that's when he talks about feeling this power. because then he knows he has a

way to provide that's not just effective, but can theoretically make him rich. >> what was his girlfriend like? what was his son like? >> well, you know, there were a coupleirlfriends i talk about. the mother of his first child, his son, she was a girl from right the same block as him. and he had known her since they were kids. she was an aspiring chicago police officer, and she is a chicago police officer today. and when they were together, she would tell me, you know, i knew he was up to something. and i was always asking him questions, but helways had an answer for her. and she could never get to the bottom of it was he was doing. >> he was providing for her very, very well. >> he was. she would ask him where the money was coming from, and he said he was working conruction which is sort of the ubiquitous crime every criminal works, and

she asked for a pay slip, oh, i lost it. >> did they live well? >> yeah, mh better. once he learned this, he was able to move out of the projects, and he was also able to help his mom and sister get out of there too. and he increasingly -- he got away from the projects by doing this basically. >> a lot of our listeners want to know about the specifics of how he dealt with the challenges of the 1996 $100 bill& >> okay. now, if everybody remembers, there were a couple things about this bill that made it so unique. one of them is suddenly we have this thing called the water mark in it. when you hold the bill up to the light, you see this smoky image of benjamin franklin, and that comes during the paper-making process. it's very old,ld world technology. but it's also very difficult to copy unless you're tually making the paper. and there's that, there's also the security strip which you see

that little strip running through the length that would be on theeft side of the bill? >> yes. >> okay. now, that will also glow red under ultraviolet light, and that foils the scanners on -- it'll show up on a scan. so these things make it very hard to just photocopy a bill. >> but it's the ink itself. >> the ink is actually not that difficult to replicate because the color you can achieve by mixing various colors of ink. ..

so that it wac so thin it was exactly the same weight as a genuine bill. >> wow >> yeah, he was exacting. the color shifting ink or omni directional ink. he got that by using automotive paint and what's fascinating about color shifting in automobile paint. it is patented by the same technology that patents it for the genuine currency. >> at 26 before the hour you're listening to the "diane rehm show". you say that there is the phone directo paper. >> right. >> host: that's an exact match to this? >> guest: exact. well i'm sure people at crane and company who makes the guine currency paper are going to say no, no, no. the secret service will say oh, no, no,. exact enough. counterfeiting is very much the art of satisfying people's expectations. when you held that bill in

your hand i don't know if you snapped i or not. >> no, i didn'tnap it. i didn't sna it. but that is also part of why this one is so good. >> right it's starch free and that pen when you put it on the surface of say just a little piece of copy or per it is going to come back black because the iodine in the pen reacting to the starch in the paper. took them a while to find this. they were calling in pap samples from all kinds of place. finally out of frustration his girlfriend started marking everything in the house. she was marking a phone book and all of a sudden it came back yellow and they got very, very seeks -- excited. there it was in front of them the answer. at first could couldn't find it thin enough to do the method but he would get around it using various chemicals and sprays give them an amber mark back. >> all right. we've got a lot ol callers waiting. if you'll put those head --

headphones. we'll take some calls. let's go first to brian who is in fort lauderdale, florida. good morning brian. you're onhe air. >> hello diane and listen. thank you so much. i've been a faithful listener for 15 years. i'm down here in fort lauderdale. and i listen to wlrn. >> i'm so glad. >> my question is how b was this man? i mean, in modern in many mode respects we judge people differently based on their crimes. he obviously wasn't convicted of any violent crime given where he's located now bud did he ever, i've always gotten the impression from hollywood i admit this gas kind of a gritty kind of a dark world and i don't know if that' true or not. >> well, certainly when he was growing up and he was in the bridgeport homes he was tough m you -- you didn't

want toess with art williams he had to learn to survive on the south side of chicago but violence was never his thing. he did others -- other things. ld drugs he was in the gang before he er got into counter fitting. >> did he use drugs? >> oh, sure. one of the reason he didn't wind up rich from this is he had a cocaine habit. sort of one of those classic criminal stories. but in terms of him being bad if you met him and spent some time with him you wouldn't think of him as a bad person at all. or a mean person at all. he comes off as very humble a little intellectual and he's quite charming. that's a difficult word. bad. what does that mean is he a bad person? he's certainly done bad things. but i think his motivations are a little more comex than that. 's done bad things. i don't think he's a bad person. did like him? >> sure.

absotely. when itarted doing the core interviews for the book we were sitting in his basement. he was telling me the story of his childod. he gas telling me things he never told anyone before and it wasuite emotional. i was seeing this guyould put up this extremely thick suit ofr -- armor over his heart for many years breaking down and crying. >> i mt say that's how the beginning of ts book aif he coulded me. i'm -- affected me. i cried f him. it was just such a terrible childhood. jason kersten "the art of making money". you can take those off. we have a two minute break and when we come back we'll -- there's an engraver with the reau of engraving on the line. >> i think this is crucial. that one right there. >> okay. >> guest: secret service? >> host: no, no, no, no. no.

yeah. yeah. oh, i love these questions from listeners. >> host: oh, yes. yes. yeah, somebody was wondering whether you we writing about frank the guy -- >> oh, sure. i can talk about that. >> yeah. >> i can talk about that. >> host: and talk about an appealing young m. i mean, at least he's portrayed in the film. >> guest: sure. >> host: you probably saw that film. >> oh, yeah. absolutely i lov the film. >> guest: should i put these back on? >> in one minute. in one minute.

>> hsbc this is how we're going to get to this. >> guest: got some from the bep there? >> no, this is there an individual who received koubler -- counterfeit bill. >> oh, was it one of hours? >> host: i don't know. let's see. >> guest: they're probably not happy. >> host: exactly and that's this first e-mail. >> sure. >> host: now headphones please. >> standby please. ♪jf. >> host: and wre back with writer jason kersten. he's written a fcinating story about a master

counterfeiter whose name is arthur williams. he s currently in prison for counterfeiting. the book is titled "the art of making money". this story of a master counterfeiter. here's an e-mail from misty in carry, rth carolina. -- karrie, north carolina who says if the counterfeit bill is so good who is hurt? by theounterfeiting crime? >> well, banks do not accept counterfeit bills. >> host: how do they know? do they know immediate? >> guest: most of them do. it depends on the particular machines they're using to count it. it also depends on t counterfeit. but a lot of them will use a detector that detects the magnetic insqk the content of it. >> host: is that usually the first time the couerfeit is discovered.

>> guest: with arts bills certaiy. >> host: when it got to the bank >> that's what he wanted. he wanted a bill that went all to t way to the bank the way he liked to put it and make no mistakeeople are hurt by this crime. the business owners who received the money that he passed were hurt by the crime. they didn't get rmbursed by anyone when they received -- >> how many of his bills are still out there. do we know? >> we don't know how many are still out there. i don't think he has any circulating right now. because one thing that differentiates counterfeit from real money it's life span. real 100 bill lasts about ten yearsn circulation. i'd be surprised if one of ours lasted six months. given the chemicals swarming around it insurface. -- in its surface. he would try to target big chains. that was one of the ways he justified it. i'm hitting kmart. he didn't like to go to mom and pop stores wher he knew mom and pop are going to lo $100. >> here's another e-mail from elizabeth in ports

smith, new hampshire. do you think the government will increase security measures in the currency in response to release of your book? >> guest: oh, boy, no. i'd really like to say the book inspired a change in our currency. that would be incredible bragging rights but there are already plans to reinvent the currency every ten years in response to the rapidly growing technology. there were stories that we were going to have a new 100 dollar bill last september with this iredible technology in it it called micro lenses where you'd actually see floating above the surface of the bill a hollow gramfither a denomination mark or perhaps an iconic image and this was supposed to come out in september according to the associated press and i called the bureau of engraving and printing a count weeks ago and i said where's this new money we've been hearing about and this

a.p. story came out and soded like we were going to have a new 100 dollar bill. they said there was never a schedule for this and they emed to be going back on what they said. i think it could very well have something to do with the economy. because you don't want to currency when theñi stability of the dollar is already in question. i see. all right. let's take a caller who is an engraver with the bureau of engraving and printing. kenneth in baltimore. you're on the air. >> hello. i'd like to speak to mr. kersten if i may. >> host: go right ahead. >> caller: yes, i was wonderg arthur williams did he ever use what we call in our professionand engraving this is enal owe or -- intaglio. i guess you call it place. making reference to offset almost everythin offset. i was just wondering i have several questions but my first question is did he

ever use intaglio at all in making this counterfeit money? >> host: go ahead jason. >> guest: no, he never used intaglio and he would do photo lithographic process. >> host: and yourecd question kenneth? >> caller: yes, it is very easilq available this information? n regards to paper many canvasses will take a one dollar bill and bleach the note that will clean off the entire ink and so they have act chill currency paper in regard to counterfeiting as i'm speaking right now again i'm not working, not speaking as an official person for the bureau. because of the counterfeiting north korea has been for a number of years producing what the secret service and what we call the super note. it's perfe 100 dollar bill that is in circulation and there's a latin america country that is producing a perfect 100 ne. >> host: that's very interesting.

>> guest: i talk about the super note in theook. art's chinese client chinatown, chicago would0 facing l -- occasionally get access to it. when they could get access the super note ty wouldn't buy art's bills. >> host: the super note is evenetter. >> guest: the super note is made with the intaglio process. $10 million intaglio press. ment -- it takes millions of dollars to perfect that technique. there's a whole team. >> host: how do we know that isn't i circulation? >> guest: it is in circulation right now. >> it is in circulation. >> guest: this was a major issue we had with the north koreans and just a couple weeks ago there was a revelation in the "washington times" that we not only know tha the bill comes from north korea and that's a rare statement for us to make because we've sort of held that over them with the six party talks. not acknowledging expolice it isly that it -- explicitly that it comes from north korea and using that as a bargain chip t washington

times reported we not only know i comes from north kgrea we know the general in charge of producing it. >> all right. if i go to my bank and cash a check for $1500 and ask for 15, $100 bills am i at all likely to get a counterfeit? >> very unlikely. especially in the 100 dollar bills. the hundreds are very often used to transfer balance between banks and it could be coming straight from the b e pp. art -- bep. art told me a story once. i'm not totally sure how everything works the circulating through banks and federal reserve and all that. art told me a story once when he was doing the old money that he was out with a friend who had gone into a bank and gotten some bills and he swers to god that one the bills was his this is the old e money nothe new stuff and whe his friend

saw that he wanted arlt to reimrse him right there. for the bill and art refused to do it. >> host: did the counter have any technique for aging a bill? >> guest: he wasn't that obsessed about aging it i know in the movie to live and di in la you have the great scene where they're throwing the poker chips in the drier with all the bills swarming around in there to age it but they would you know, sort of crumple it up a little bit. rub it on their clothes a little bit. but they didn't want to ruffle these bills too much because remember they are two sheets glued together and if they start messing arnd with tha they could have real problems which also happened to him in the south. if you remember in the humid climates his bills would occasionally peel apart. >> host:. there's an e-mail from carla in strat ham, -- tra tham,

new -- stra tham new hampshire who said i was positive listening to the intro for this show that the counterfeiter was going to be frank. can your guest comment on this t similarities beten the two men and did they ever meet? frank was the subject of that really fascinating moe. what w he called? >>catch me if you can". >> catch me if you can. who became a master counterfeiter. >> guest: well, he did checks. he counterfeited checks. he wasn't a currency guy. and so that's one of the differences between the two. one of the things they had in common is they were both very young when they started doing this and ty were both also you know, -- >> very brit and very artiskly -- artiskly oriented. >> and scam artists they could talk their way into anything. >> did they ever meet? >> no, they never met. frank i think he might be in kaas omt -- i'm not sure exactly whe he is right now.

but yeah, he's sort of a different generation than art and frank went legitima. he made millions of dollars as a consultant for document security companies and i had real hoped that that was the path art would take when i met h. he was fe whe i met him he had expressed a desire to do this. to use his knowledge in a way that would help people after having spent so many yearscamming people and a company in upsta n york actually hired him to do a speech and he went and gave a speech befe about 400 to 500 law enforcement officials and he was nervous to death when he did this because he's really coming out and giving away some of his secrets. he got a standing ovation and the company was going to put him on the payroll. unfortunately he shortly there after failed a drug test with his probation officer and she consequently refused to let him leave the state of illinois which he

would have to do to have this and he used that -- this job and he used that as an excuse to start counterfeiting again. >> host: and he began coterfeiting again but he also broke one of or several of his master teacher's rules. what did he do? >> gst: well, the first rule that he broke was spending the mey himself rather than hust selling it to other criminal groups because then you're putting yourself in a much closer position to where the money is appearing. so that was the number one things he did. another thing he did is he got gedy. he had always told him. you can survive if you a od life, not necessarily you're not going to bece a multimillionaire. but you can have a good life if you just keep it on the low. print just enough to sell. 100,000 here. that was the most da vin

would usually ever print was $100 thousand and he's get 3g 0 cents on the lar for f.e.a.r. that. not 100,000 it's 30,00 dollars which you could live off of for quite some time. but art started printing and -- more and more. his drug habit started to sper fear causing him to print more. >> host: and he began looking for his father. >> yeah and that's really the heart of the story for me is this pursu. to find out what had happened with his father and why his father had left the family. and he finds his dad. i don't want to give away too much in the book. but findingis dad leads directly to what gets him caught. >> jason kersten his book is titled the art of making money. the story of a master coterfeiter. let's go to charlotte, north carolina. joe, you're on the air. our. >> caller: hi diane.

i just wanted to relate a quick story. i was a bartend ner washington in the late 70s and throughhe 80s and mr. kersten's exactly correct. you do, you can feel the difference from t paper. i was night working on a busy saturday night and received a 100 bill f a drink which at that time was $2.507. for -- ".50 for just a mixed drink and immediately i could tell. at tha point i had been tending bar for about seven years so i worked in some of the most popular places in washington so handled a lot of money and it's dark in a bar late at night or at night. a lot of distractions but i could feel it immediately and i sensed it and walked over to the guy tt i was working with and asked him and he couldn' tell any difference i sai well, i think this is funny. so i looked around and the guy was gone. as it turns out he hadone up to another area of the bar where i worked in where

there was yet another bar and the guys at that particular bar ended up acceptin three of them from the guy and each time buying one drink and getting $97.75 and i'm sure he left a 2-3 dollar tip. >> sure. >> caller: didn't occur to them that hey, this guy keeps buying drinks and paying with a hundred dollar bill. >> host: so what did you end up doing joe? >> caller: called the d.b. police the metropolitan police department andhey told me they wouldn't handle it. i said i've got the guy right here and theyaid you have to call treasury. so called the treasury department and a couple hours later an agent showed up. i still had the receipt from ntraband tt he gave me but he told me ieed this gentleman had been in that part of 19th and m streets and had passed about 40 o these around to various bars. >> host: wow that is a lot of change. at 6 minutes before the hour you're listening to the

"diane rehm show". so that gets us to how police, treasury fbi, secret service react. when a bartender like this who is pretty darn sharp. i mean, what happens? the guy's gone. >> guest: that was surprising to me that they told him to call treasury. or the secret service i'd think. but policesually will respond to a call. i guess suppose it depends on how busy they are and the town they're in. bars are ideal places for counterfeiters to pass currency, they're dark, they're busy. people tend not to study t current i -- currency very well because money is passing so quickly. but that's certainly surprising it would take hoursor someone to show up. >> host: so jason, are you

still in tch with arthur williams? >> guest: yeah, he calls me usually once a week from prison and his calls are limited to 15 minutes. >> host: does he have a radio? do you suppose he's heard you this morning? >> gue: it's certainly possible. i know they have radios in a lot of the federalrisons. i hope he is. >> you hope he is. >> yeah, sure. because? because it is one way to reach out to him and kno i'm out the telling his story. w very important to him that i tell the story what happened to him as a child as i did this. there was thi -- the fascinating part. the counterfeiting partas obviousl very fascinating but the human side of it. his journey as an iividual was what he really wanted to get out. >> but the question becomes once he's out. do you think he'll go straight or is this addiction still part of who he is? >> well that's going to be

the number one conflict within him. i thought he quit this time. and i really hoped he would. but when uncertainty rises up around him this is the one certainty he's always known. so you know. i would call it a0/50. >> what about his girlfriend? >> his wife now. but i've heard they're getting divorced now. i'm not entirely certain about the future of that. >> do you intend to see him ain soon? >> oh, sure. absolutely. i'd like to visit him in texas. >> well, texas is one of our big listening states. so it would not surprise me if he has access to a radio. that he's listened this morning, heard you tell his story which i must say i was extrrdinily moved by not the ill legality but the cruelty of the treatment

that this young man received early on and even later in life just boggles the mind. the book is titled "the art of making money" the story of a master counterfeiter. jason kersten is the author. at's spelled kersten. thanks for writing this. >> guest: thank you diane. >> host: and thanks for listening all. i'm diane rehm. >> the die yam rehm show is pro -- "diane rehm show" is produced by sandra, nancy, jonathan, susan. >> host: you've got really, really take deep breath when read this because some of the parts of it, i mean just boggles. >> guest: his dad was no go. such bad guy. >> host: oh, well --. >> and his sister. >> and his sister. you know. i didn't even want to get into that.

>> in se ways she had it rougher than he did you know. becausee externalized all his sort of anger. >> would you sign that for me. >> sure. >> thanks. >> h invested that in what he did but she internalized all hat. >> absolutely. well, thajk you so much. i hope the book does well. [inaudible] >> that's a story in and of itself. he got an n an argumentith his son and his son got him busted. >> isn't that something. >> you said he broke all of these rules well, the one rule that got him was that. >> it's very much a father and son story in that regard. the ire next that -- irony that it comes back around to bite him. >> this north korean super currefcy book does that pass the bank? >> i thi it will. >> itill pass the bank. >> that will go all the way

through that's why i said it'ss in circulation. you can spend it. you'd be all rht. we're it the unirsity of north florida talking with dr. aaron sheehan-dean about his book "why confederates fought". family and nation in civil war. dr. sheehan-dean your book ek plors virginia soldiers and their families in the civil war. why did you choose to concentrate on virginia as opposed to other con federal states? >> because virginia is really the most important theater of the war and what i was looking at was trying to assess questions of loyalty. virginia soldiers usually fiting in a national army close to their homes but not at them. so they're subject to the pressure of wanting to be home and wanting to defend

their state as well and i wanted to see how those variables played out. >> whatypes of stories emerged when you were writing the book? >> the big story that emerged was a surprising one. the traditional telling is that over the course of the war confederates slowly give up. particularly poor and middle-class men. i found in ft they tended to stay in. and looking at the way in which they talked to their families about why they were staying in is really what i became the main part of the book. the main argument. >> why did you find they were fighting in the first place? >> certainly a strong enthusiasm built on a sense of sort of betrayal by part of the north. virginia is unique state. part of the upper south. virginia conservativ have really put a lot behind lincoln sort o went out on a limb extending themselves saying lin wen-tang con is no threat to us and lower south after fort sumter lincoln calls up troops and the unions really see that as a betrayal. there's a strong outpouring of