so this and how were and me gradually starting with the 1960's, 1970's and then grew dramatically with the impact indi act. by 1990, oregon trib had support compact witthe state of oregon and were rea to establish casinos casis mean dollars and dollars ve the tribe opportunity for self-determinati and program development on like anything that had occurred previously. ..

your book was over 500 ges. how did you decide what docunts to leave out? >> that was a hard decision because i left out two-thirds of those i had selected. in other words this is the tip of the iceberg of information that was out there. but tried to elect documents and voices from people or events that really mattered or countered. many o the things that are described in the book are counted in the book are turning pnt ents. such as the decision to terminate western oregon tribes or the decision to open a reservation for homesteading in euro american settlement those re highly consequential moments for the tribal pele their voices and their respons to those events are part of the fabric of this book. >> what's your opinion on the teaching of u.s. americal-indian history in this country? i think the teaing of it has iroved significantly. there' much greater cultural sensitity and awareness and embrace of the

multiple ethnicitys o the united states since the civil rights movement of the 1960 we've wised up. we've integrated advertising. we've integrated programs and movies. we've integted housing. we even have an african-american president. >> and what's next for you? >> wl what's next was new book that came out this week. it's a corporate history. i have started writing some business histories. the nex book later this ar is going to be history of the jen see and wyoming railroad in gren niche, connectit and rochester new york. so my interests range from thamerican west and native americans to american business history. >> you've been speaking with stephen dow author of oregon indians voices from two sen churs. thank you.

sally jenkins journalist for "the washington post" and john stauffer share vith amican sit protes sore at har vord. confederacy fro jones county mississippi from 1963- 1965 led by a local farmer and composedf his white and black neighbors. rvard bookstore in karm bridge, maschusetts hosts this event. it's about an hour. [applause] >> thank y all for coming. we thought we would talk for about 45 minut a the open it u for question requests we want to do three

things i our presentation. one is just give you a brief background about how our book came into being and then summarize some of the y themes hopefully whet your appete so that you'll want to buy it and read it in case you haven't. and then third tel you why we think our story is significant both as a story and as a civil war story. and we'll riff on each other so we'll both be talking throughout. w the book came into being. about 3-4 years ago was asked to be a consultant for gary ross. we dedicate the book to gary ross among two other peoe. he's a film maker he did "seascuit". dave, big, pleasantville and working on a screenplay for th story. this is the story of southern union us em in mississippi is one that's been around in various mhic versions far long time.

-- for a long time i had been work. i've done a lot of work on interracial allnces and reform and was very interest inowdy sent functions in the south and so i had a wonderful time doing some research for him and then he decided after he wrote the screenplay that he wanted a history o the book to authenticate the movie which is not yet in production but should be in the not too distant future and gar new sal who is a brilliant writer. award winning journalist but also historian. sally's book before this was the real all american on the carlisle indian school and so he hood us up and we hit it off really well and spent some wonderful research immersions in mississippi and other places and s over the course of a few years fished putting

the book togher. and that's how it in a sense came into being. it's a story about these yeomen farmers and sub is tans --ubsistence farmers in jones county, mississippi in the civil war in jon county was the poorest county in the state. some background is that missisppi we say is the marrow of the deepouth. mississippi was overall the wealthiest state in the country. in fact mississippi boasted more millionaires than any other city in the country including manhattan. the avege field hand was north today's dollars $75,000. gives you a sense and a big planter would own hundreds of slaves. it was huge business. at the time it was the big buness. slavery was a far bigger

business than the railroad or any other industry and in fact southerners were hoping to annex partsf central america, south america and were totally reluctant to stem or control their institution. and given how wlthy the planters were in mississippi. joins county was poor because it was in swampland. it was in what's known as the piney woods area so it's horrible for plantations. these were subsistence farmer who bically grew very little cotton. they had a sense of dignity abou working with their own hands which was totally to plters andhey were opposed to the planter class and the succession which was in a sense sewhat unusual. you could think of two-thirds

of white southerners w were nonslave owning. most of whom endorsed slavery and the reason for that is t se reason that a lot of minum wage workers embraced the capitalist system today. they believe at some point th'll become millionaires or ty'll -- or they'll be ae to participate in that system. theub sis tent farmers of jones county understood from cla perspective their interests totally posed that of the planter class and also the religious sensibility and jones county wasne of primive baptism and baptists until the 1820s were explicitly anti-slavery because of theological reasons. beginning 1820s t south essentially silenced those anti-slavery stiments but we have evidence that

primitive btists in jones county and newton it's congregation were at least on theological grounds antislieve -- anti-slavery. the ptagonist of the tale newt was opposed to slavery on economic grounds, ligious or moral gunds on the eve of the civil war and in fact the farmers of the- jones county overelmingly opposed the session and vote for tisuccession delegate. i'll let sally pick up the story from here. >> well, my role here is as a narrative writer. i've only written one book that could be considered he is -- history before this. uble day our publish really brought me on board i think as a storyteller a the reason why is i think that history a an abinstruction can be hard to grapple with when you hone in on the individual and you take anndividual through the points of a story then

you begin to experience snmething like the civil war more personally and so the person we honed in onhis n this book is a farmer named newton who was a subsience farmer who did not own slaves his parents didn't own slas interestingly enough which was odd because his grandfather jackie knight was one of the few really large slave owners in jones county. ounty where the land really wasn't conducive to plant agot of cotton and ye jkie knigh was an inspiring to the planter class and so were a lot of his children. except for his oest son albert who refused to own slaves. who was t only pson in jackie knight's will not to be left slaves when the old man jackie knight died and albe knight and his wife and their family were subsistence farrs who really believed in tilling the earth with their own two hands and make a living themselves. they believed in the pride of feeding themselves with their own two hands.

their son newtonlso believed that. newton did not own slaves and not only that developed distinct anti-slavery senpimentsy the time he's drafted into t confederate army. so the story of newton knht really on a personal level is illustrative of the fact the confedecy was not a great romantic noble endeavor in which eveone in the south was united by dixie. there were class divisions. there were racial divisions there were religious divisions and so the story of this man really is a way to sort of explore those wedges in the confederacy. newton knight's story really begins with the outbreak of the civil war whene's essentially draftedo a confederate army that he doesn't believe in. doesn't want to serve in. he tells the people who draft him the local officers who draft him that he doesn't want to fight but that he'll serve as a medic if he has to. and so he goes off to war

and basically walks saight into one of the really horrendous early battles of the war the battle of core rinlt and in t battle a kaf her rebel generalamed earl van dorn decided to lach a full frontal assault at overwhelming union forces that were dug into really deep entrenchments with reallyarge weather and forts with parrot guns on top of them overlooked this immense field. the rebels as they tended to do early in the war. especially. launched this massive charge. massive chargecross open fields. hundreds and hundreds and hundreds o yds of rlly open fields with nothing between them and the guns but some chopped up timber to really sw them down. and as they crossed this field newton knight's company i really in the teeth of one gf the worst areas of this charge. they charge right at an area called battery robin -- they

sweep into cornth fairly triumphantly but they're so exhausted and so hungr and so beaten up by this horrible charge in the teeth of the guns that they actual i stop in some of the stores and bakerys in cornth for someing to eat. eventually the union drois them back out of cornth leaving field strewn with hundre o dead. newton knight spendshe firs night of that battle collecting corpses and wounded men from the field tending to the overnight. the next morning earl van dorn the rebel general tries it again there's ather massive charge. even worse than the first one. at this point tha rebels are terribly whipp absoluty decimated and so the finally retreat. they have a long ag mizing marc back to safety. -- agonizing march back to safety. right after the battle of core rinlt confederacy passes something call the 20 negro law. e 20 negro law was basically a law that declared any planter that owned 20 her or more slaves

was exempt from militar service. the 20 negro law was passed by confederacy for a aouple reasons whichohn will help explain because i'm going to hand the ball backff to him. but the first and most important reason because planters wanted to stay home and oversee their plantations and their slaves. it was a deep fear of slave insurrection in the deep south and one line of thinking was if the masters remained at home they could prevent this from happening and secondly rich men wanted to evade service. wh the 20 knee grow l -- gro law was passe they bacally have a conversation in which they aree that this law makes it a rich m's war and a poor man's fight. as the phrase went. and jasper collins is anotherubsistence. poor dirt farm ser really the -- farmer is really the term. jasper colli close down his gun and says that' it for me. i'moing home. i'm not fighting in this war. he's older than newton knight. newton knight looked up to

jasper collins very quickly within a matter of days newton knight those down his gun too and he's done. he's finished. he deserts. seral men fr jones county just flat desert after the battle of cornth and they return home t their county among other things their wives are beginning to starve because there are no men to help to help plow the fields or tend the livestock. meantime confederacy has also ected a policy called tax in kind. tax in kind meant the confederacy cod come to your farm take your horses take your hogs take your corn. take the cotton out of your fieldr take the fabric your wife had stayed up all night working on at the loom. literally in some cases the con federal --onfederate offirs wou ce in your hnuse and cut the clo out of your loom that you've been weaving for your kids to wear. there was intense resentment not just by men who were conscripted into t confederate army but by their wives and children back home in could beties like jones.

so when you read about an abstraux call -- abstraction called the confederacy and read in your textbook about tax in kind or about conscription whi is what it meant on the ground. newton knight is the way into this story because the specificity of his experience is what makes t history of the conferacy really live and it's through that kind of story we begin to tru understand what the confederacy was. it wasn't gone with the wind. and it wasn't dixie. it wasn't you know lines of men in beautiful dashing grayniforms marching off singing. it wa an on the ground experience. it was a rich chet miserable expeence. dren by resenents and as hn is about to explain resembled much more of a totalitarian state than a democracy. it was profoundly undemocratic state and profoundly undemocratic epode in our nation's history. so one of the things hopefully you'll think about as you read our book and you read about a man named newton

knight is about the nature of real patriotism. the nature of dissent in terms of the formation of a patriot and how sometimes did senl can behe highest, -- dissent can be the highest form of pay tri yot esism when newton knight goes home he and his friends start talking and come to an understanding they had voted against succession whent came to a popular vote in jones county. newton knight and his friends had gone to the polls and vote against succession. the representative that then goes to jackson mississippi to the succession convention ignors the popular vote back home and votes for secession. burned in thetreets in mississipp for back in ellis count not only after the battle of core rinlt whan they and their friends desto they realize it is a rich man's war but realize they never had a say in the first place.

and this they really are living in a profoundly undemoatociety at that point. they talk lotery explicitly newn knight and his friends very explicitly about the constitution and about allegiance to the union and they become not just deserters but unionists. ther are a lot of men who desertedhe confederacy because they didn't want to fight or becau it was uncomfortable or dirty or dangerous. t the was then second level of resisnc to the war that begin to form that newton knight represents and that is unionism and not only tha but anti-slavery unionism and with that i'll turn it back over to joh. >> by863 to declare one's self a unionist was by definition in mississippi anti-slavery. the emancition proction was january 1 which meant all slaves of the rebel mags -- masters uld be forever free and so when newton nigh and his subsistence farmer buddies affirm theonstitutioand

pledge allegiae to the united states. that means that they are for emancipation. they're for ablishism and that's wha they do. they see themselves as loyalists. in fact, the confederates refer tohem as tories or loyalis and they are an enormous threat to the confederacy. because the confederacy is not only trying to fend off the union but they're trying to fend off the enemies from within so to speak. blacks and unionists. and newton nigh and his white comrades are able to survive in large part for two reasons. one is where there from jones county the pining woods. the easiest way to summarize is that it's swampland. it is a combination of cypress swamps and pin

forest and at the time these pine trees are about six feet in diameternd there are moments during the day where the sun barely shines through. it was a different world and they learn how to fight swamp warfaressentially and the other reason why they're able to survive aside from the location or geography of thewamp is they received aid from blacks from slaves who were also seeking to resist the confederacy. the confederacy want. they recruited, they drafted any able-bodied man, then they em -- impressed slaves to do the dirty work for them. when newton knight and his buddies go back to jones county, they form a common cause with these african-americans because they share this hatred against the confederacy. the confederacy is both trying to either kill them or impress themnto service

and so the facing a common enemy who threatens them is an iortant reason for this interracial aluns. -- alliance. we have good evidence that newton knight's le was saved by former slaves on a number of occasions and in fact, rachel knight a slave of newton's grandfather explicitly safes his life on a few occasions and newton forms -- eentially falls in love with her at some point during the civil war. and by the end of the war they have a child together. very common throughout the south what's virtually unique is for a white man to treat a black manr woman as an equal. which esrentially newton knight does. he raises h children from rachel as hiswn. and in fact after the civil

war and in reconstruction ends up living in esstially a black community he is radical republican sking to uphold the new equaly unr the law ofhe constitutional amements. in fact, he helps t build an integrated schoolhous that whites burn down that then constitutes according to an ex-slave a final break th whites and with newton knight we don't want to give away all the story but we'll say @ouple things. one he becomes known as a white negro because of his decision to live in ts black community and is buried in a black cemetery. in many respects newton knight is the john brown of the south. he's more radical than northern aboll ligsist -- abolitionists. i've gotten ahead of myself but let me backtrack and say a little more aboutewton knight souf earn uni -- southern unionism. as not only a deserter but a

uniunionist he i a fugitive from justice. deserter and unionist it's a capital crime. in fact the confederacy is so worried about newton knight and his comrades and his alliances with blacks they send in two crack rej ms to -- regiments to try to snuff them out high command issues an order for summary execution. if you see them, kill them. get them out of the way. they're able to fend off the confederates as we said cause they know how to fight swamp warfare and the confederacy makes the miste of trying fight newton night and -- newton knight and the calvary. you can do a lot of things can calvary and the confederacy had a gre calvary but fhting swamp warfare with calvary does not make a lot of sense which is what the confederacy for the most part tried to do. at the end of the war again from the perspective of wt knight it highlights

the degree to which white southerners or confederates they surrendered but they don't lay down their arms. they return hom and they continue to engage in a terrorist war and they shoot blacks shay sthot -- they shoot republins they shoop unionists and they can do whatever they can to preserve the old order. and in fact newton knight east -- knight's life was in a sense in greater jeopardy during and after recotruction than it was during the civil war because during the war he received aid from sherman's my. whenherman came through in the meridian campaign. wead very goodvidence that he receid arms and rations and artillery from sherman. increasingly over the years of reconstruction. there are fewer federal troops white. the former confederates are confirming to power. newton knight forms a close

alliance with aid l burg ames. the great union oicer who was a radical republican in mississippi and ames in fact appoints knight as aaptain of a black militia to try to enforce the laws of the united states during reconstruction and after. there are a number of assassinatio attempts on newton knight during reconstruction and after. and in fact we'remazed he was able to live as long as he did. he doesn't die unt 1922 at the age 91. that is one of the most stunning facts of his story. >> you just gave away the ending. [laughter] >> why don't we end the formal aspect of the discussion by saying a

litt bit, did doing two things. one we can talk a little bit about how we were able to piece together this story and why we think this story is significant. newton nigh east story was first published durg war itself. when you think about it the worst fe of the confederates is not so much slave iurrection but slaves allying themselveses with whites that was the worst nightmare. at's why john brown to this day remains this haunting spector. for many whites. in fact one of the people we dicate the book to who is a mississippian jim kelly told me when we were down there for research and talking about john brown and the resemblances of john brown with newt knight and jim kelly said my closest association with john brown when my granddaddy would say

i'll be john brown rather than i'll be god damned for most white southerners john brown continues to be satanic. demonic because he aligned himself with blacksnd tried to make war on the south to libate slaves which in a sense newton knight does. so he's first written about as a threat to the confederacy during war but one of the interesting aspects of the civil war which a lot of i'd say most americans don't appreciate and eve some scholars we think get it wrong is that one, in many respects the south wins the war by the end of recstruction the south has to a large degree retained the old order of white supremacy on black on fredom. that's not the say the confederac wins the war. the north, the union army wins but the south wins the war in terms of preserving the old order. and certainly the southins

the war of how the civil war gets taugh by the 1880 white southerne are in control however the civil war gets taught and by the 1880s the war is being taught that it's not about avery. it's not about the slave owning secessionists who want to control and expand slavery. its about these larger economic forces. the e grain, te -- e gary yan south and aggressive come patti north. itas about white southerners simply seeking to protect their land. it's warf northern aggression. the northerers were really the aggressive ones whereas when the war broke out, every repubcan understood thatoutherner were committing treason. they were taking up arms against the uted states. but by 1880 the general history of the war was it was about these larger economic forces.

no o was me plal- morally to blame. the confederates were these noe heroic people so were the union soldiers so the war gets cast lik essentially a national super bowl and in many respects it's how the war continues to get circulated which is why for exple the confederate flag can still be flown her rowkly and with -- heroickly and with pride in many places of the sth because of this long tradition of the story of the civil war being told in a way that has nothi to do with slavery or little to do wit slavery. given that the first so-called histkry of newton knight was in 1880s and it casts him as a common thief deserter. murderer. and basically you're a mmon desperado.

unprincipleed dperado. who is simply wanting to protect himself. wants to make war against neighbors and frids to line his own pockets. that he's not at all principle. that basic version of newton knight with a few exceptions newton knight's son writes and publishes essentially privately. a story of newton knight as a robin hood figure and there are, there is very good evidence that he was kind of robin hood character and he sought to protect his community of subsistence farmers. he distributed grain a number of incidents where he raided confederate supply depots and then distributed the food to theubsience farmers butis son completely ignors his intercial relatis and romance. and tha story of newton knight either aa unpress

pl desperado or a thief or as a villa really persists through the entire 20th ceury. the only scholarly book prior to ours that begins to get newton knight right is a social histo by victoria in 2001 called the free state of jones. she gets a lot of facts wrong in her book and she completely down plays the degree to which newton knight was a fur vent anti-slavery unijobist. -- unionist. during the war andough reconstruction. he applies for a union pension o five occasions. ames this radical republican governor of mississippi senator supports newton knight's pension. he hires newton knight to b the captain of a black litia company. newton knight deedso his, to rachel knight his

essentially black common law wife. at the end of reconstruction just as federal troops are leaving south he deeds her 160 acres of land. at that very moment. why? to me sure she's protected. there are numerous other instances of clear anti-slavery unionism on the part of newton knight that we were able to uncover through some lucky and in some cases very diligent research. >> my turn? >> yeah. >> okay. i think t wrap it up and then open it for quens. i think that if we hope you take anything away from this book which you will hopelly re it's the nature of the individual in turning events. newton knight and his company the jones county scouts is what they named themselves fought off t confederate arm -- army for

sensualy two and hal to three years in t swamps. parts of two crack regiments are dispatched to deal with these men in the swamps. they organize themselves. they swear an oh of -- to the unionnd begin to launch military operations. particularly after vicksburg s county scouts become incredibly powerful because more and more men are leaving conferate army and not just hiding out as deserters in these smps which had become by then a ki of a super highway for fugees of all sorts. one of the most amazing thgs that you about missisppi swamps in wartime was that tre were escape slaves. fugitive union officers caught behind lines. men like newton knight deserters from the confederate army. men whore cut off. there's slave named solomon northrop who writes about being a runaway in these same swamps and he writes about hearing human voices in the swamps a how crowded they become with humanity in wartime. it is a fascinating facet of

that part of the mississippi war. at any rate, nton knight and hisiterally start to rn the tide of the war in ssissii by the end of the war the lower third of the state is really in the hands of unionists, deserters and opponents to the confederate army betwehe union sal vary that's come -- lvary that&s coming over from places like vksburg and riding through the lower third of the state. men likeewton knight who, there were oer unionists besides jnew -- newton night in the southern part of mississii. in smith county one cnty over from jones county where a man named hawkins owned a mill where he literly handmade his patriotism was so strong he handmade an american flag and ran it up over the top of his milch when that flag that hand-drawn americ flag went up the local unionists knew to meet at the hawkins mill. not only that but he kept a picturof abraham lincoln

on his mant s told everybody what a great and good man our psident was. this is in southern mississippi. in the heart of wartime. when these crack regiments are dispached by the confederate -- confederacy dl with newton knight and his allies in sth county and other neighboring counties they raid the mill and arrest hawkins which is ho we know and theyerht tear this handmade american flag from the body of hawkins wife who had hit hidden it under her dress and a report i fil about raiding the hawkins mill. these same troops go into jones county next where a huge firefight erupts with newton knight and his men in which the confederateset the worst of it for a time. every time the confederacy tried to deal with newton knight and his men they would melt back in the swamps and a confederate office would wri write a report is and say well, we'veiped dhem out they're gone within a month newton knight would be launching another raid against a storehouse and confederate installation.

they freed local slaves they killed basically, they killed or ran off every sij confederate officer in jones count. there's it' been said that jones county formally succeeded from the confederacy by the end of the war. there's no evidence tt they filed some sort o polil notice that they were oicially succeeding from the cfederacy newn knht himself was asked about that once after the war and he said weever voted for secessionn the first place. so thereas no point in succeeding from the confederacy. said in our minds we'd never left t uon. it was his response m by in effect jones county had succeeded from the confederacy. the mention of -- men of jonesounty launched suck suck et cetera -- successful insurrection against jones county and won. the couy remained out of confederate controlnd so did everything south of that towards mobile and the coast until the end of the war. >> in fact, returning confederate veterans at the end of the war were so

barrassed by the southern unionism of joan -- jones county that they successfully petitned the state to chang the name nf the count f jones to davis. i.e. jeff davis andhe name of the county seat from elsville to leesburg. when after unionists regaed control during military reconstruction they turned it back to its original name. >> and by the end of the war newt knight had bome so much the enforcer and the strong man of therea that when yankee troops come in to occupy ellisville, mississippi and the seat of the smith county, all these local counties the units that come in are black units that have been sent over fom vicksburg they're led by white officers many of whom were boston abolitionists incidentally at least some of whom. -- ernest hemingway's father served wit one of those units. men like that, white

officers commanding black units moved into jones county as occupying victorious union forcesook over these parts of missisppi and newton knight there are letters in the national archives in washington, d.c. from union officers to newton knight asking himo carry out orders. one of the first things he's asked to domen a union ptain writes a note to him saying there is a local slave child being held by his former whoern refuses to -- owner who refuses to release him, the local blacks tell us you can free that child and it uld be a great service to us if you would go over and free this child from the slave owner w won'teturn him to his parents and berate him. newton knight gets the child back. he goes over andrees the child return himo his parts. local blacks toldnion officers newton knights the man who can help us in this area he also carries out orders from union officers to carry foodo destitute citizens in all of the surrounding counties.

by the end of the war he very much regarded as the man to see if you're in any sort of trouble in jones county. he was not only a patriot to this day hs regded as a man who helped the destitute he's vied very quietly b some filies in the area as a al hero and as a gene soul in addition to being a fearsome one. he was an absolutely lethal combatant. he was renowned. he could reload a shotgun beforehe smoke cleared. before the war the fierce ckwoodsighter in the neighborhood and during the war he and his men came up with this technique where they would actually overload their shotguns with more pellets. they would stuff as many pellets as they could into their shotguns so they knew how to double load these shotguns and fire off one barrel after another. and honestly if you were a confederate unit comin after these men in the swamps the shot just filled the air.

fr these shot gu. these overpacked shotgs. so he was a fascinating character not without his flaws. first of all he had two family one whi and one black. heountless children. we're stil countinghe number of children he had by both his wife, his white wife serena and his wife rachel. >> and some of t children intermarried the knigh family genealogy to this d in jones county there are a multitude of knights living in jones county some of whom we interviewed for the book m some of whom had ner talked about their family history before because it was a source of shame the interracial make-up of the family was a source of deep, deep shame in the family. one woman that we talked to literally hadever spoken to anybody about itxcept fo her own parents and very little at that. she was great at helping us understand t nature of this family and the hisry of this family. but tre are still white

knights and black knight as they call them the knight negrosn jones county and then there are branches of the family that have scatter aid cross t country. one of the things that happened pticularly from the 1920s onwar is that so knights got out of mississippi, went off to places like texas and lifornia because they wanted to escape the family history and s they went off to other states. one branch of the famil changed their name to mick knight and passed as white for many generations. meot inouch with us. we st of tracked some of them down and there are still parts of the knight family tt areearning about their history and discovering new things every day about their family history. the oral tradition within the family about newton knight is unequivocal. he was a hero to the fily particularly thelaque side of the family. -- black side of the family. he was a great provider and great father and great grandfathe who pos with one of his mixed race

grandsons for a photograph that is reproduced in the book which john is a photographic history -- historian in addition to othe thing who can explain how extraordinary that was r a white man i mississippi to pose with a black child for a picture. so i'll sort of wrap it up with that andust say that we hope the story o one man's war helps illuminatehe great war. >> in a number of ways one as sally pointed out this stor which we hope you'll find in itself a compelling storyhat i highlights the degree to which easiest w to summarize the confederacy is that it's a totalitarian state secondly the how and why this white southerner can form such intimate bonds of alliance and intimacy with blacks. particully in massachusetts. a lot of people in massachusetts think that if you're in mississippi in the civil war period or even n for some pele,

mississippians are ignorant, they're backward and incubly racist. th is a story that highlights the degree to which there's some backwoods yeoman farmers who are just as abolitionist in their own way as john brown and or ndell phillips or william lld garrison. and third hopefully the story will highlight for people the way in whh the traditional prevailing stories o the civil war have continued to be my thol jised in certain ways. thank you. [applause] >> if you do have questions we just ask that you use the mike in the center aisle here. thank you.

yes, what part of the state geographically is jones unty located? >> what partf the state is jones county located? southeaste mississippi so it's actualy very the nearest big city is mobile, alabama and so it's southeastern. that's where the piney woods runs thrgh. so there's one county south of jones which i the southern most southeast county and then nes so it's very south. very east. where is the wealthy planter counties were pry parly along the mississippi river -- primarily along the mississippi river. knn as the black belt the reason so rich is because of the spill-ov fromhe mississippi river. which is why that chez was the wealthiestity in the

country so the planers -- planters wld livehere and have these gorgeous plantations and homes that spreadut along the missisppi. >> jones county was close enough tohe coast to feel the catriona breez. th didn't get knocked down or anything. but the farmers newton knight fd sweet patoes and corn and melon an so on and so forth he would take his producey wagon to mobile. mobile was the market town for jones county. it wasbout a 3-4 day trip over land by buck board wagon. they would cam along the y. they would drive turkeys they would raise livestock. hogs and turkeys and they would drive theurkeys re them down the road and th the turkeys would land in the tre and roost in the trees. the youngeroys when newton wa a younger boy part of his job is come ang and get the tur cans out of the trees and drivehem down throad. one of t things that t dirt farmer learne how to do in making thesearket

trips to place like mobe is they learned every not footog and every strea and every backwoods path. one of the rea why newton knight and his men were so effective in evading confederates because they really knew to progress gra few really well. knew how to float things down the pearl riverome rive that run through the surrounding counties become very narrow. negotiated these streams and floating things down them and finding lite islands to hide in. lorts of caes and things. they really knew the landscape much bet than the confederate forces being sen after the. -- sent after them. >> descendant oni cil war soddier. >> yo, thought this -- yeah, thought this woulde appropate considering my question. let me give a b of back story beforesk t question. i was in the first chapter sons of union veterans to bereat in the state o

alabama that just was created probably within t last 10 yearr. as fars i know still the only chapter in the statef alabama. an one thing i had noticed during processf getting the chapter created was there's still a lot o hostility and resistance t the idea of southern union us swim to the idea that there were southernersho served in the union army who willingly volunteered serve against the confederacy and such. so much so tt we encountered resistance from time-to-me when we tried to talk to the public about thereation of the chapter. >> that comes as no surprise to us. >> yeah, yeah. >> in fact a book that you might iou haven't already read that focuses on unionism in alabama i margaret story's book. >> loyalty and loss. >> yes, yes. >> which is very gd. it's less a story about a

specific or a couple individuals but it highlights the degree to whichs we id if the botto third of mississippi is controlled by unionists by the end of the war the top quarterer to third of alabama is in yoj -- unionist control it. you look at every single confederate state large swaths of those confederate states are con troned by -- corolled byoune yonists one the most overlooked aspectf the war. >> union calvary still has unions the descendants still have reunions. >> good for them. >> and there wasctually one fel h passed awa before we wereble to create the chapter but he was the actual son of first alabama calv u.s. man soldier to b in it. but yeah, i don't want to monopi the micro fon. >> ner congratulated for it. southern unionists had a hard time getting pensions afte the war because no o believed a uonist could

have existed in dixie and there's another book called wors than slaughter that amines alsohe tl of unionism and desertion on theonfederate army. a lot of people he looked desertion desertions a top take's be studied. they spent a lot of time actually appraising just how manyen fm mississippi ho many men from tex. ho man men from arkansas. what they don't do is examine union us em. -- unionism and anti-slaverynionism specificallx as a motive for some of that deserti. as i say not only are they not congratulated f it but deep scepticism still exist that stoes -- tse stsf men would have had moral conviction. one of the things we've been amaz by is the level of resistance to an idea a man like newton knight could have beenorally mivated. couldn't heossibly had moral motivion. be a deserter tha wanted to go hom and grow corn. couldn he possibly had a re reason for behaving the

way he did. >> still a lot of resisnce. mething iad asked questions about. i'm actually an aspiring historian myself. i hadsked a lot o in some of the local history groups in north alabama a particularlyuntsville why there were some things commemorateed with historical markers and other things tt were not. one thing i was curious about and this ultimately gets t my question. when i was askin questns about why formple prominent hunts civilians wh had been notorious abolitionists at least in the eyes of local peopl in alabama likeames burney who hadived there for a long tim. head two sons who wer born there and ended up becoming generals in the union armyn the civil war no markers anywhere. this uas a man who was candidate forf the president of the united states on the liberty party ticket twice that i can recall >> right. right. a tse exactly correct. my questn is and this is something i've dealt with i my own research did you encounteas much resistance. >> we do.

-- >>ome critics. we'r encountering it from some critics. this is why narrative is important and this ihy we chosearrati a why john accepted me i think partl on brd as honest to god his uer stud dim he's the world class historian. if you plot the points of newton knight's life as a aph. his parents did n own save f slaves deste the fact his grandfather owned slaves he himlf did own sles. he cuz conripted he voted ait seceson. he's conripted into the army and then deserts he found a company of tia. homemade mitia that fights the confederacy at every turn for three years. after the war he is the first man that union officers go to to free local black children who are being held against theirill by former slave owners. he then accepts a commission toead black militia fro ames who is the most reviled man in mississippi hisry

to thisay. mel of honor winner for the union. called the gala hat of the union. one of the most decorated soiers in the history of the union army who become mississippi' provisional vernor and also a senator from mississippi. he's one of the oy white men ames can tur to in the state for aid in figing off the kkk and slave owners. you're going to tell me wton nigh had no convictions? and yet that's what we encounter from critics who say no he's just -- nothing really proves that newn knightou go too far. w're told we go too far. >> in fact, to this day so far the most negativ review is from a southern mississippi civil war loc historian who accused us of saying that we d't have the evidence that newton knight wasrincipled he was an unprincipled deserter. this critic the person who

wrote the review. his hero is jefferson davis. he has characterized in his own writi jefferson davis as noble and in adversity. and the evidence that w marshal in is really uncon tr veritable. it's just, there's so much over the piod of the civil war through reconstruction the end of reconstruction. and i think your point is - it highlifhts the degree to which idea logically the south won the civil war. they controlled how the story got told and militarily they won the civil war in the sense that white southerners were able prerve black unfreedom in var rig degree in the the so-called second reconstruction of the civil rights. lynching was, bece a did finingspect -- defining aspect of the southern cuure from 1880s throu -- >> and here tees most fainating thing. you're newton knight a you fought this war.

what year is robert lowry elected governor of mississippi? >> 1880. okay. in 1880 a man named robert lowry is elected governor of mississippi. and in his inaugural address he talks about how the founding fathers never envisioned the equity of the races. robert lowry is the office ter confederate colonel who wa distcd to chase newton knight through the swamps who spent two months basilly chasing newton knight through the swams of jones countynd smith coun. this is manho after the war is force t surrender and take a loyalty oath to the union and who nto ight views as the beaten coeracy. he was -- newton knight's arch-enemy he hung a numr of newton's men he captured he hung them from trees without trial. robert lowry in 1880 is elected governor of mississippi. you're newton knigh in

1880 living with rachel knight the black woman that ymu raiseing a family with for all ients and purposes on theroun you've lost the war. cause your arch-enemyf the confederacy is now governor of the state. you've lost dhe war. 's a pity that the populist could not draw upon the memory of jones county in terms of interracial collaboration b i was ndering about the internal warfare within like kentucky and missoi to determine whether theyould succeed remaiin the union was that due to anti-slavery unionism? gooduestion so the border states of kentucky and missouri in pticular. why didhey choose to remain in the uon?

i should first say that the guerrilla wfare in ssouri was extraordinary. there were large numbers of miourians who formed confederate cpanies. jesse james who became a cult hero is still a cult hero for many people he's a confederate thug in missouri who is defending the confederacy. the main reason tt missouri staysn the union are one reason. there are a number of reasons. one is that the politicians undersnd that they are better protected by staying in the union. slavery not as quite essential anens institution in kentucky as it isn se mississippi. it was confliced. and in fact a scholar who we'veeen eye-to-eye with in many respes william and his most recent wonrful

book onhe road to disunilume two. essentially argue that had secession beeny referendum or popular vote throughout the soh, southern states wouldn't have seceded. started as a domo effect. n fact t only southern stathat had a pular voter referendum was texas and that was much later and there was already a snowball for secession so popular vote they did vote f it. but in missouri there were a number of staufch anti-slavery people in missouri but a lot of pro slavery people in msouri and it was in many respects miouri experienced worse guerrilla warfare than say southern msissippi in. fact micha has a terrific book on the gur -- guerrilla warfare in missouri. in missouri starts in the

180s. -- 1850s durlg the debate -- during the debate over slavery in kansas because missourians go to kansas the guerrilla warfare spill into missouri. kentucky not quite as much guerrilla warfare but that's a keynote of kentucky. where you have within the state confederates and unionists fighting each other. >> by the way, jones count, newton knight was not0 tnl unionist in jon county. the men whoerved with him in the swamp 53 other men made tir way to new orleans to enlist in the union army in new orleans. 53. i mean, jones county was little. it one hue 53 men. that's significant. that right there tells you there was significant unionistentiment in the county. >> well, thank you very ch. that's all the time we have for questions so book signing now and very much from all of us. [applause]

>> tha you. @

>> now booktvill break for the c-span program, "the

commicators." botv wil resume its holiday ekend in half an hour. booktwill break for the c-span program, th communicators. falis week on the .municators, three reporters technoly in telecommunications issues in thepcoming session w congress and the federal at senications commission. >> hosith the fcc fully atffed with five commissioners s.hought we would take this opportunity on the communicators to look at some of the telecommunications policy that might be looked at by the sec nd by the congress. we are joined by three working atterters, kim hart of the hill, fawn johnson the dow jones and nos of conessaily. uell, rt, what is the main legislate item or the main hegulatory item on the fcc's agenda in your view? uple o >> guest: well i guess from

the fcc's persúective th are spending their time between a knuple of things, the main piece hat ir time is bng spen on think they'reulus or broadban finishing up this they are putting together. hops is due to congress and that worries the right now they are hdingi think they are nishing up this week i think, ndout 23 orpm!=] workshop ocusne who has anything toñ say about broadband and the state of re drillvice in the u.s. inow it can be made better and sepaed to more peoe so that is a big focus of theirs. i would y anher one is real going into the wireless industrand trying to get ars, ttter sense of t e state of competition there. umerthe main players are, what ty make available to consumers and what the commsion aan do tionake that a more consumer friendly industry. >> host: let's start a bit wh the broadband policy.

>> gue fawn johnson dca oadbandue than into whathey are working fuhave b >> that a good qution because the acal plan is due after aig chunk of the it.ulus money has be spent. so we've got the fcc lookingt bi pictu ideas, how do you get allf the people in th instry to start building out to places that they might not alrey do? how do you make that a sustainable,rofit-building experience for them through soft ideas? then you've got the commerce department and usda who are charged with about bon of grant money actually going through applications from, you know, small and lge organizations saying, you know, i want to build a wi-fi system in oneticular community and ting to figure out who to give that money to. it's hapning on dual tras, i thin the idea is that the stimulus money's supposed to be

short-term hit to get broadband to a few more place that might not have been there. c is looking really long term, decades down the road, the mite not have been there while the sec is holdg long-term ago there lking decades the the road and ey arelso trying i think to change the people tnk about inteet and mickey be more like electricity, and less like some rvice that you woul pay for but it is nice that you don't necessary need it and i think that is their goal. hobbit if there is going to be interesting to watch. >> host: the you see in active this fcc in the next two months? >> guest: activists? >> ht: ithe broadband area. >> guest: there of collecting data right now. that is a good question. we don't really know actually. there asking a lot of queions. we are told that in the next couple of months, things are going to start to get a little

mre activist purse of which i ink what that means is they are going to srt making decisions about what we need to ow and where we need to push, so for example, ifou are going to talk about wt is the definition oa high-speed inrnet access line, ifou know, then we a going to srt make some decisions. it is something, your typical dsl connectiogood enough or not? and that is going to start, there's going to be little bit of push pull there but that hasn't happened yet. right now they are just asking. >> guest: i think if they don't start to actually take the afswers they are getting and take the comments they a getting from industry players and even consumers and aually start to use those to make some decisions are start floating some ideas about w they possibly mighto the cmission might start to take little bit of heat from the public-interest groups who have been saying, the commission has been sing than julius genhowski as bee

saying he wants it to be a very dated dferent agency that everything decision cannot be made until they have sufficient numbers to back up their decions, and their ideas a what they are pushing out but ther is then, they spend a lot of time on that recently in pret much m of their action so far hasasically been asking fornformation and saying we are opening this up for comment. please let us know what you think so if they don't start takingome of that in actually doing something wit that or showing the public in these public interest groups that they are doing something with tha that is worthwhile and pushing towards the larger agenda they might start to get some direction from that and as well. >> host: noyes, but about congress and the stimus in the broadband picy? >> guest: i think congress spent quite a bit of time on you know laying out the logistics and now they are kind of waiting to see what happens from the

fc i would imagine this senate congress committee and oers are probably also waiting like we are to see a lot of the da and i think we will knowore after february onc the report is due t congress. i alsoanto touch on the wireless competition issue because that is another thing that congress has been pushing very hard abnut. senator cole fu ha the antitrust subcmittee withi the judiciary committee had pressed very hard to the fo look into this and of urse that alo with broaand are kind of the two topics that genachowi has taken right out of the gate. a th topic that a lot of people whoay be wondering about its net neutraly me in keeping the internet open a thatortf thing. it was something president obama mentioned a few timesn the campaign. he mentioned it ain back when he unveiled the cybersecurity

report andhat is anotherss that they will get into. >> host: we argoing to come back to that. anything else tbe said about broadband before we move on? anything else todd? let's move on to the wireless issue that you brought up and you brought up all supper kojo-- both the chairman and the lead senior republican robert mcdowell both spoke about wireless policy really-- recently. i want to show you a little bit about . >> the wireless competition report is that it does go beyond what cmrs is understood to be narrowly, to look more broadly at all of the elements that affecthat we understand to be the mobile marketplace. is an important step in the process of laying a soli foundation f predictle, facts based competition policy in the wireless sector, a proces that will continue with otheompetition reports that the agency is responsible for.

competition is of course important for many reasons including that it produces l prices a high quality for consumers. competition is also the mother of invention which makes it especially important in a fast-changing marketplace like communications, today's competition is an essential companion trefore to the innotion and iestment notice that we discussed earlier and ce versa. >> the commissio loss-- longstanding policyo allow competitiv market fces rher th command-and-control regulations, to foster t development of an investment in wirelessetworks a servis has leto a remarkable adnces. thus, i hope we ill proceed with care. mindful th any future action we consider should aim to attract more privatenvestment capital rather than deter i >> host: noy wha were they talking about?

>> guest: they were talking abott what simply could be aracterized as, whether or not government needs to eventually step then d see how competitive that space is. me folks wouldrgue that companies like at&t and verizon have a strangleold on the market because some of the smalr players in that space have argued that for some time. so, right w is they are doing with the broadband planned t fcc is compiling a lot of data and that process really began at the meeting that you just showed, so they are looking a that and it's the same time, the republicans are saying let's not be hasty. let's not intervene too much becauseook the mobile marketplace is thriving right now and that is as a result of bus taki more of a lig touch. >> guest: one thing that is imrtant to remember in all of this is that wireless is getting a lot more attention in part

because it is considered absolutely critical to the broadband plan especially in those rural areas were in fact i don't see fiber being connected to every home outf rul montana's so it has become, you find essenally t different industry sectorsind of coming together and the internet, there is a traditon wh lot of advoca behind it towards keeping it open. in the wireless space they have not had that kind of regulation, and th are just starting to ask questions about where should we let the markeforces ride through and where do we need to poke a little bit and m sure everybody has access? >>uest: alsoave been questions about wt parts of the country don't have meaningful competition or people don't have the kind of accesso wireless that they do in her parts of the country's so that is also a leg of their probe.

>> guest: one thing tha commissioner mcdowell also said that tt meeting was looking at how successful the wireless industry has been over the past decade. look at homucht has grow year after year, whi you don't see often in an economy like this. and one of t this that he argued the and it wa echoed b the comssior meredith out wall baker said one of the reasons it has tried to like it has done is because it has been left to market forces. left to the companies anda consums to make those decisions that take that approach and work that way, but on the oth side of that coin there's the argument that andrew mentioned, that there isn't, not all people inll cities or towns of this country have access to the fourarriers or five criers. >> guest: or even one. >> i think another interesng

point, something that will kin of be woven into this laer examination at the fcc is the work that they have begun, looking into a particular instan that involved app and,t bolinder popular ipod device, at&t and google, so there were some clas that t apple had rejected a gole application for the iphone, an they basically requested, requested some responses from the companieso really get an idea of what is going onn that space. i think that investigation on a very microlevel could shed light howhis commission pns to proceed in the big picture. >>uest: righp, a that was mainly zeroing in on these exive contracts or panersps that a carrier can have with the handset makers which is pretty common. brent h set that pre-and the most well-known one is with at&t

in the iphone. so what the commission is really trying to zero in on is that that kind of exclusive agreeme hurt competition and reduce choice for consumers, notust in handsets but the applications can get on tseandsets. >> guest: it is interesting though because i think they are being rl careful onhat one beobviously once you start talking about the iphone, peopreak out. >> host: why? >> guest: at, it is a ltiyear excsive agreement with apple to mket t iphone. they want actualltill you how longt is. it is not illeg it i unusual. most agreements less less than a year and the idea is that this is to share the risk between the developer and the crier. and i think the i felt a so of the poster child for what is either right or w abo these exclusive agreements and apple d at&t, they have to

kind of beat back t forces but they do it differently so at&t told the fcc, we don't have any choice. this is apple's decision but at the same time they are ij partnershipitthem and they need to, they are going to be regulated the se that anyone else is should e commission actually decide to do something but they haven't really made any decisions yet. is this point they are kin of poking. >> guest: they haveade it very clear that it is not an official investigation or a full review they are just asking questions. >> host: noyes senator cole poked at ts issue too, didn't he? >>st: he certainly did. he had a high-profile hearing before the adjourned for the mmer where he brought some of the stakolders to the table and really tried to figure o from his perspective what the state competition is. he was very critical of companies like at&t and verizon

and as i said really pushed the fcc to take action. >> host: a, could ts lead to the demise of this agreement? is there any sign? >> guest: actually, recently some of the analy said men suggesti that the agreement should go away without any sort of regulation. i am going to make a guess that, if the agency actually wants to do something tt is kind of a low-hanging fruit item to just, it is true that consumers, real consums, not lobbyists acally complain about not being able to get and iphone if the have a carrier that is and at&t. it is especially true in rural areas, so an agency that starts off with the consumer bent, that is not aually, that is a relevant question to ask but not that hard to fix. they focus on a flurry of

activity but there may be some logic say look, all of you out in the marketplace do what you need to do in order to create these new handsets but don't have an endless exclusivity agreement. make it some amount of time in one year, two years. they certainly haven't told me about it but just reading what they say about consumers that is e top complaint. i get e-mails from readers to complain about it and i'm sure the fcc gets their share of comments. >> host: kim hart? >> guest:hey hav't been explicit about what they plan on doing in this area in it has far is that is a pretty easy fix in the low-hanging fruit for them to go right up the bat and say okay we are going to decide this isn't something we can dome but i haven't seen any indication of what they plan on doing now. i think after the meeting, i think it was you find, you ask what the plan on doing now that you have the responses fro

apple and at&t and google. german genachowski said th responses were very interesting but that is as far as i'm going to go on that so it is really unclear. >> host:oyes, what about congress? they could take action on this. >> guest: i think senator coal are waiting to see where the fcc goes on this. he did issue a reaction when the letters fromhe companies were due to the fcc. he and his staff for watching as refully are members of the house. the courts in competition subcommittee so i tnk it is to be continued at this point. >> host: you also introduced the topic of net neutrality. what kind of regulatory action do you foresee? >> guest: right bore august recess, representative markey and eshoo inoduced their net neutrality bill, which mirrored similar proposals we had seen in the past. they kind of wanted to get that

out there, kind of laid down that marker. from dscc standpoint they obviously, as we have been discussing are preoccupied with all the deadlines and the work on the broadba plan and wireless competition but on capitol hill ihink we can expect to see a lot more inhis space. senator dorgan introduced the senate cost net neutrality bl. i would imagine he will probably reintroduce it. and i guess the wild cardhat some have questioned is reprentive boucher, rick boucher who chairs the communications subcommittee on energy and commerce, he was out in front on last congress. this time he is not an original co-spoor for the markey eshoo bill. a lot of the stakeholders to suppnet neutrality have said bowsher haseen on clearance position and we expect him to be a prominent player but people are scratching their heads about why he is not on the front lines. a l of other folks that said

he hasot a lot of other issues on his plate. >> host: are you sing a flurry of lobbying activity both for and against the markey eshoo bill in simply put, what is the marker that the markey eshoo bill layshem? >> guest: to answer your first qution, no. i haven't seen a l of activity. becausof the oth priorities that are out there. but i would imagi that the longer the fcc states salence on this issue, the more we are going to see from the lobbyists. >> guest: at rht and all the fcc has really said is, reinstated the fact tha it is a net neutritagency at this point. >> guest: we haven't seen any stement i don't think from commissioner clyburn or from mmissioner baker. >> guest: you are right. your right.

>> guest: the other thing to mention i think is that, when julius genachowski was asked about this at his confirmation hearing in hugback in ok giddins answer itwas very careful. i don' think i actually and heard dhe word open. he has talked aot about coetition and innovation, but i think he made sometatements toou kim, in one of your interviews, we hav't actually gotten, we haven't gotten any indication about wt he means by that in the definition s evolved over time, such that at this point we almost need a n term i think reay to be able to debate it. >> guest: some of this is going to be held in limbo until the court decision comes down on comcast, the comst lawsuit in which comcast aion against the fcc saying that the fcc did n have the jurisdiction to tell them how the can mane their network. so, that is now locked in court

and i amot even sure when that decision is expected out and i haven't heard. >> guest: they just had to file their preliminary papers. >> guest: probably not t year. >> guest: there mayot be a whole lot of action or lobbyin activity until that decision. >> guest: gehowski has said he is keepg an e on that so thats important and his general counsel are kind of figuring out how they need to proceed or if they should proceed in any way >> hos saking of comcast and core dates, there recently was the crt decision regardg comcast d media ownership. fawn johns what was that in at washe net result? >> guest: it was a big win for comcast, not huge surprise that the court struck down the rule that had been put in place by genachowski's, his predecessor, kevin martin with the help of a couple of demoats, that would cap the

subscribership that any single cable operator has a 30% of the market, and t court in a pretty strongly worded opinion struck the whole thing done. they talkeabout which is unusual for even come up for this court here. and, so now there is no cap. the practical effect of that is that comcast, if they wanted to, couldore easily go in and buy a small cooperati like cox are cablevision are something like that. there's no cable operator that even comes close to that kind of market chare but in the broader perspective it speaks a lot t the,he ability of the commission to go forth and to try and actually to regulate competition. the court said that the decision had been made, that they were

arbitrary and capricious in the decision, tt they ignored the court's previous instruction to look at other markets, and they were pretty harsh about it, so with any tng i would say, and i would expect nothing less of airman jim mikowski, that their ys to be careful when they go for. they want new players, but doing something as sort of blonde as just saying here is your-- cap and you can't go above this, that may not fly. >> guest: in that court case, that decision may not be the end of this story. i know thaafter that came out some of the stakehoers that opposed thasaid they are going to go to congress and they are going to push for legislati. >> guest: well, yea whether that actually happens. >> host: fawn johnson what else is on the fcc agenda in the coming months? >> guest: we have touch on the bgest thing they are dealing with i thank, as you pointed inyour clip, jan

hakowsky has tee'd up, there's gog to bether competition inquiries thathere makings of the wireless ishe beginning and there be-- looking athe cable industry andxpd that out but then they are engaged in so other i would call them behind the scenes type actities. they have got a bigcc reform, staff said up figure out how to chase-- change the agency. they are just the beginning of that but the person th actually led the effort the last time around is doing it again this te. her name isary beth richas. she is on the general counsel. the other thing that they are doing is very sexy, but could have some far-reaching implications. they are doing a top to bottom review of tir data that they have of the industry andhey e looking to see what they

have and what they don't have and then what they mht need to aner some crical questions like, is there competition in this particular space? some of the preliminary kamatchus statements from officials, even at the beginning that the data they have aret very good. it is scattered across industries. it is an open question as do whether they will actually decide things. some of it is sentive, subscribs,hose are all, they are not easily given u so those are the i thank long-term i doubt were going to see real action on any of those things with the next year, but it is worth keeping an eye on bee they could eventually come aroundnd say, we neeto have data on a your numbers are all your price or something so we can cide where w need to go in and tweak.

>> host: speaking of data, noyes a new bill has been intruced by senators rockefeller and i believe stahl regar@ing the internet and presential power >> guest: that is the most ntroversial part of the bill but t bill that senator rockefeller a snowe introduced earlier in the year is a very broad cyberserity bill. they introduced it before the administraon came out with its 60 day review and so since the point their staff has been kind of changing the bill been talking to stakeholders. there was one, one section of the bill that people worried would essentially give the prident the authority in a cyber emergency to flip the off switch on the internet, and that scared a lot of people. i know that rockefeller's staff didn't have the intention to convey that message noyes

definilyave been fessing e language there. the latest draft of what we have seen over the august recess i a bill that is restructured in a way that puts workforce issues, ensuring that we have a cybersecurity workforce in the private and public sectors that can really fort increasingly complex and dangerous attacks on our critical infrastcture neorks, so there are definitely-- they have taken now quite a bit. they have added in quite a bit so we will see where that goes but that is definitedy a hot topic in something the administration has set as a priority. >> host: kim hart you see the adminiration being interesd in telecommunications issues? >> guest: absolutely. i think it's something the administration is watching very carefully and is choosing refully of crse where it will intervene if it does at all, or where it will throw up

support for particular issue a particular stance. on the cybersecuri bill that andrew was just talking about, creating a better developed national cybercurity plan and eight responsive pn to how they would cope with a severe threat has been somhing that presidentbama has been out in front about ever since his campaign. he has pledged to create a cybersecurity czar position in the white house which is still empty and i think that is a bit a cause of anxiety foreople saying, we need toet on this and srt making some fixes in our systems, which we know our flawed and be more secure safeards and whenome of these bills come out and there are aouple of others from the homeland security committee also, looking at ways to strethen how the agencs look at their networks and the type of standardsy