french we guerrilla wars. you take a bunch of prisoners, you slaughter them. really savage. on the united states' side, of course, you heard me mention a few of them. grant was a lieutenant down there, sherman was in california, robert e. lee was one of scott's engineers, and this whole roster of junior officers who become generals in the u.s. civil war. so you get a little of that on the mexican side, but most of them cut their teeth a little later. the three reasons the united states, if you could say it won the war -- i'm not sure it did -- but just the disorganization and weakness of

the mexican side. second was the superiority of the united states field artillery which is the best in the world at that time. and look at the devastation it wreaked on both be sides in the civil war. and the third was these west point graduates who were field and company-grade officers. the generals were all incompetents. whether they were politically appointed or not. because the ones who had been in the armies, had careers, were moth-eaten old relics of the war of 1812. really not up to this. they got themselves mired in politics, taylor especially. that's something west pointers learned a lesson mr. this, politics and military service don't miss. polk didn't understand that. he politically interfered with the army every day and really threatened the safety of american les just to score

partisan points. his successors generally followed the lead of the west pointers, and those who did not learn the lessons of polk's mistakes in the years since have done so at their peril. if they keep the politics at home and the commander in chief's job then is to facilitate the military campaigns. >> many historians have seen this war as a great tempest of nationalism on both sides. i take it with your emphasis on sort of federalism and rebellion that you would take exception, at least to some degree, with that interpretation. >> well, no, the rampant nationalism in the sense that we were the greatest and be we got permission to civilize the world, that was already the in the united states. it had bee since practically the ink dried on the declaration

of independence. in mexico the stresses of the war in the postwar period finally create a mexican national identity which revolves around, by the way, i interpret the virgin of gad lieu pay who was revealed to an indian, and she looked like an indian. but in the early 1820s she was taken over because she supposedly represented them. they were with their white, spanish catholic heritage, and they were born in new mexico. but by the end, and i hav the thing where i describe this change, because the way the war -- the treaty was kind, they were trying to hang on to their power at the top, and they're willing to give away half their country just to stay there. theyad more troops at the end of 1848 out fighting their own

people than they ever put in the field against the united states. and the people were rising up, and a few indians like juarez, you know, get the idea, you know, maybe we could do a little, a little better. and i say in the end this one chapter i say the virgin was not creolia, she was mexican that. i think i'm being told to shut the heck up. [laughter] >> david's book has lots and lots of things in there that are tremendoly interesting and well expressed, but we will bring this to a close now. friends have prepared for us a wonderful reception with some punch and cookies, and remember we like people to check out

books. we also like people to buy books. [laughter] so be sure and patronize our table, and david will be abl to sign some books for you. thank you all for coming. [applause] >> thank you. >> david clary is the author of adopted son: washington, lafayette and the friendship that saved the revolution. to find out more about the author, visit randomhouse.com and search or david clary. >> washington post reporter carrie rider seven -- lid

lidarson. the protest sparked national attention and led to a minimal turnout at the company's auction. representative gutierrez and many of the workers involved attended this event taped in chicago. >> kari, i thought i would begin by going back t you know, it's kind of amazing. we're sitting actually just a few blocks from the former republic windows and doors factory. we drove pretty much right past it on the way here tonight, and so it brought back a lot of memories for us who came over from around ccago and rwj thinking about those days of the round-the-clock action going on inside that factory that started out very much as a local story, right? right here in this part of chicago. but very quickly for an extraordinary, through an extraordinary turn of events

became an international -- not just a national, but an international story. why don't we turn the clock back a little bit and just replay some of the highlights of how that happened. how did this, this occupation of a small factory here a few blocks from where we're sitting tonight go from that local little goose island to the international stage? aha. here's armando, by the way. he's just arrived. [alause] does around man doe need to get micked up? >> yes, he does. >> okay. armando, we need you to stand up one more time. [speaking spanish] >> yeah, well to answer your

question just the cliff notes versio and then we'll get into some of the nuances later. everyone here, i'm sure, heard of the factory occupation. basically, you know, last fall was when, of course, the economic crisis was horrible and theanks were getting the bailouts, and so on december 2nd, workers at republic windows and doors -- it was about 250 workers -- at this plant on goose island that made windows and doors were told by the management of the factory that it was going to close in three days and that they would also lose their health insurance. and the workers knew -- armando will probably talk a little bit mo about this, but the media coverage at the moment made it sound like it was this big surprise and out of the blue and, you know, this horrible shock right before christmas. that was one of the interesting things to me right off the bat was that was sort of a misrepresentation. really the much more interesting

and inspiring story is that the workers really knew for at least a number of weeks beforehand that somethi was up. i guess i'll try to keep it short for now, but the owner was trying to or was moving a lot of the equipment out of the factory under cover of night, so he had some kind of plan which we'll get into later to close this factory down. so the workers had been talking about, you know, what theyould do when they got this news that they were expecting to get. so they were fully ready to take a really bold action which was to refuse to leave the factory when they were actually told that it would close. so that friday which was december 5th there was sort of meetings during the day, and then when the end of the workday came, they did just refuse to leave, and that was the start of thisccupation that ended up lasting sih days and turned into sort of a two-part victory. the first part was that the workers got one of their

commands which was severance pay and vacation pay that was due them which the company was refusing to pay. their ultimate goal was to keep the factory open, and they tried to, or they launched efforts to start a co-op that might actually buy the factory and run it as a worker-owned operationic spired by the things going on in argentina and other companies. they got an offer from a california company that makes energy-efficie windows and drywall who had seen all the publicity and wanted to buy the company. that did end up happening, so now what was formerly republican windows and doors is open as a company called serious windows. it'seen held up as a child of the stimulus act and the whole green jobs phemenon. so it was kind of a whole arc ending in a big success although

it's still an ongoing story. as we'll talk about later, you know, it's still too early to call it a complete success, but one of the interesting and exciting things is the challenge and the struggle for the union is still really there to make sure that the new company lives up to its promises and that, you know, ts isn't just sort of a green washing example of green jobs that a lot of politicians get credit for and nothing really comes of it, but rather it's an amazing labor struggle come to fruition. so, sorry, that was too long an answer. >> no, no, no. actually i just want to follow up on that by quoting from the introduction to your book, kari, where you sort of explain why i think the republican windows and doors struggle sort of encapsulated so many different issues. kari writes, many labor experts and citizens heralded the republic victories as potential harbingers of a revitaized and

reinvigorated labor movement in the u.s. those involved point out that far from being a spontaneous act, it was the result of finely-tuned and tireless organizing and strategizing by an independent union that has forged a path separate from most organized labor. and with a wk force largely comprised of latino immigrants. the republic story thus entwines some of the most significant questions facing the u.s. economy, the elving situation of organized lor, the increasing role of immigrants in the economy, the potential impact of the bank bailouts as well as a signifint connection to the economic stimulus package passed in february of 2009. so i really have two questions about that. one for armando and one for you. and, of course, either of you is welcome to answer whichever part you'd like. but i want to -- if you could

address how the republi doors struggle really did seem to strike a cord with all of these issues simultaneously and kind of, again, become this national and even international story? how didepublic doors kind of reflect all of these forces at work underneath the surface of the story? >> yeah. well, i mean, it came at a time, obviously, that peoe were really angry at the banks and afraid of their own fortunes, and also it was kind of a moment when people across different classlines who in the past, you know, might never have felt sympathy or empathy with, you know, blue-collar immigrant workers who, you know, sell themselves in a different sector of the economy suddenly realized how unstable the whole system was. so i think it was just a perfect time as far as the struggle resonating. and the part people are probably aware of but that i didn't

mention before was the whole role of bank of america and to a lesser extent j.p. morgan chase in this. you know, the company owed the workers this money. it was a total of about2 million, but the union took the strategy of targeting bank of america which was the major investor in the company and then j.p. morgan chase which also was a part owner kind of under the theory that even though legally they really didn't necessarily owe the workers money, you know, unde the laws that pretty much let workers out in the cold when a company closes, the union took the tactic that moreally -- morally especially having received 45 million in bailout taxpayer money, they had an ethical responsibility to make sure these workers were given what was due them. so i think the general fear and uncertainty in the american public and then internationally, you know, things militant

actions in labor and other struggles, obviously, in oer countries are nothing new at all and happen all the time, but, you know, i think people around the world were well aware that this was something you don't see ry often at all in the united states, so they realized what a ground breaking thing it was even though it was happening back in mention coa or argentina or korea or whatever it would be a much more common occurrence. >> and that slogan if i could just interject briefly, the slogan that came out of that bailout struggle was you got bailed out, we got sold out, and that slogan has been, has circulated now and is used in all sorts of labor activism. >> yeah. and then just oneore thingn that point as far as how the whole struggle started and how it resonated with people, you know, like we said before the kind of immediate media coverage was these workers were told their jobs were going to be gone and they just refused to leave which was misleading and an

exciting image, but the reality is much more important and, you know, much more important for the general public to understand which is this didn't come about spontaneously at all. it was weeks of really brave and kind of tirels planning and strategizing. so, you know, when you talk about how this resonates in the labor movement from here on out -- i mean not just with unions but with workplaces. >> 9/11 -- it is important to understand that the organization was key to that and the strategy and working together. it wasn't just all of a sudden, oh, my god, we're not going to leave the factory. so i think that's something that, you know, was maybe left out of the larger understanding which, you know, i hope more people will become abare of. >> -- aware of. >> yeah. that's what i want to ask armando about. one of the things kari does so vividly in the book is she talks about the long and very careful process that led to the decisions, the strategic

decisions that were reflected on, deliberated on and then finally taken. after a lot of discussion, a lot of thinking, a lot of conferring amongst the workers, your allies in the union. why don't you walk us through some of that, armando, what it was like. if tre was one scene in particular that kari describes where you're in a car with mark minester of the internatial. armando is the president of ue local 1110 here in chicago which represented the republic windows and doors workers. but it was in consultation with the ue international where some of this separate eyeing came about that would lead to this historic action. can you talk about some of that, armando? >> yeah. good afternoon. it's a pleasure to be here. first of all, early in november, the first week in november the company give us the order to fix

the machine to the mechanics. i'm a mechanic and republic, a former mechanic with republic, but whenhe company start bring one welder machine from bensonville which is our -- they -- what is? wareuse from windows? they was having in a stack there, they bring it. this machine was from a long, long time, like t, three years beforement they put it there. they was making a huge, huge windows line. they put in there. but that don't make -- the people don't afford that because it was too expensive window. like 20 inches by 20 inches. it was like50 to $700 for each

window, so it was too expensive. so they bring this machine out damaged, the give us ordered to fix the machine, the mechanics. we spend three weeks fixing because when they put in there, they damaged so many teeth from the machine. and they tell us to fix it, and the company start buying feature the ones they grab the materials to fix the windows. so they bring that, and we start fixing that, and the features were for the most highest product from republic. this sounds to us weird. why the company going to fix one machine to his competitor with the highest some yule of our product? so it no make sense to us. and then before thanksgiving ween we start seeing -- we put the machine, this machine

and then they give us the order to put another machine what they was reconfiguring to send. it supposed to be selling to somebody because they don't have enough money to pay us, and they don't have money to buy raw material. so then theight before our thanks giving -- thanksgiving around wednesday we see a mager, a manager and a former manager and let us know to turn off all th lights in can company. so when this happened, it was more weird to us, so we spend a couple hours outside of the company. and then ten minutes a former supervisor, like five former supervisors appear in the company and a former driver which is from our union, but he was with the company. he appeared, wasn't laid off.

and a couple guys from the company. and they started moving stuff in a rental truck. it was weird because the company has their own drivers, so how they going to represent a truc-- rent a truck? we found out next day it was office equipment. so it was me on saturday early in the morning i bring my wife to work. she was working on right here by western and lake in the currency exchange around 6:00, 6:30. so i go to the company with my little kid, oscar, 7 years old, and we spent from 6:00, 6:30 in the parking lot until 1:00. and then i go to eat something because it was too late. we didn't eat breakfast, we was spending time. i saw some drivers from republic, and i approached the guy. they was afraid of me because they don't know me, and i represent those people. i have to call the foreman, i

have to call the steward from the drivers, and he told me let me talk to those guys. i give the phone to him, they talk to each other. then they find out i'm the president, and they have more relations with me. they start talking to me. they say the company told me to. the company don't tell nothing to those guys. i ask them, ty tell us, do you come to move something? and they say, no. so i say, what are y doing here? they say we are out of the road drivers, and we waiting for our other co-workers. so i they, well, that's good. and they tell me thanks for save my job, and we talk a little bit. but around 2 it was company, a private company moving trailers in the parking lot. orlando was with me, he went in front of the company, of republic, and i tried to come over. we talk each other and i say,

you know what? go to the north side of parking lot and tell me what you see. and then he go and tell me, you know what? the plant manager open the company, and he see me. i tell him, don't worry about it. we want to sew you because -- see you because he going to realize we are here. so i tell him, let me know which way they're going the take. we want to follow, and i don't know how far. so we follow the trailers. when we find out what they put on the north side and south side like 45 minutes, i call the woman, let her know. and i call bob myselfer or, and he told me i am out of the town, but i going to be there in two hours. it was real cold. it wasn't winter, but it was november. it was cold. d i go, pick up my wife to her work, and i come back.

we spent from around five hours since 7:00 around 2:00 in the morning we were around there checking the trailers, taking notes, the number of the trailers, license plates and everything. and then i ask him about i got friends? we drive trailers. they say, no, no, they going to accuse us. i say what if we let the tires -- [laughter] he say, no, no, no, that's crazy. [laughter] and then he tell me, -- and i ak him, how we do that? so he say just stay in the plan, the company's going to tell you, hey, you got to live. you refuse to go. and then i say, well, that's a great idea. we explained the executive order, the idea, and our first idea was to let them know, the

people, that we don't want there chance to be arrested. maybe the immigration on something, we don't know what will happen. anthey have the ui, so we don't want to bring our people to be in bad position. we find out like seven pple decide to be arrested. in the end we get seven that day. we start receiving calls from the people saying the company's calling back and say that don't show at 6:00 because they're going to give us the news. it's better to show up around 10:00, they going to give us the bad news. so we came, and they --

[inaudible] >> that's a very dramatic story, and it happened in a very dramatic time, too, right? there was so much else going on at the time. barack oma had just been elected preside but had not yet been inaugurated. it was in that interim period in december, and he was in chicago and was scheduled to hold his first press conference since being elected. so, and it was in chicago the press conference. t it had nothing to do with chicago, it had nothing to do with labor, it had nothing to do with republic windows and doors. the press conference was actually to talk about afghantan, and obama, the foreign policy team he was assembling in transition. and yet because the press conference was in chicago and because these dramatic actions were going on at republic windows and doors, one of the questions that was put to him at that press conference was about

republic windows and coarse. and then president-elect obama responded as follows to that question: i think they're absolutely right. what's happening to them is reflective of what's happening across this economy. and he said that, and at that moment it became a national and, course, international story because the global media were covering obama's every move at that poi after his historic victory. i should say that quote actually adorns the cover of kari's book which is interesting because, well, i guess it helps sell books if you have the president [laughter] blurbing it. it looks like a blurb for the book. [laughter] but there's no question that obama's statement at that press conference played a major role in bringing at was happening at the factory to national and,

indeed, global attention. and yet at the same time -- and, of course, many people have talked about the different, the changed atmosphere in the country that you had the president of the united states after eight years of bush under one of the most wretched labor departments, in fact, coincidentally, ironically the labor secretary, elaine chao, was the only bush cabinet member to serve both terms, all eight years. bu after eight years of horrible labor poly, you had an incoming administration that was actually endorsing an occupation of a factory. and yet at the same time, kari, there's been some debate about whether the labor militancy and the sort of atmosphere, the spirit of emboldening the labor movement, that that statement from obama seemed to reflect might in some ways cut the other

way, right? david moberg has a pce in the new issue of in these times about the legacy of the republic windowsit-in in which he quotes nelson liechtenstein talking about the obama effect. he says president obama inspired hope and political engagement, but liechtenstein argues the tends to be a demobilization of the left when a democratic president gets elected. there's a kind of let obama do it attitude. so i wonder what you think about the ambiguous role of barack obama vis-a-vis this dramatic story that you tell in the book? >>eah. we, just one little anecdote. as far as barack obama making that statement on sunday, the workers had had meetings with management and with the bank officials on friday, and i think it was ricky, one of the other union leaders, that said on monday when they went back to the meetings after obama had

made that statement, they felt like they were being view inside a whole new light, you know, by these people who had seemed to look down on them before and all of a sudden were like, wow, you just had the president to be speaking on your behalf. but anyway, i think as far as -- and i think they would have gained that respect regardless on their own even if obama hadn't made that statement through the ongoing community mobilization and their own actions over the next few days. anyway, as far as the outcome of and the influence, you know, or the fact that we have obama in office right now, i think, you know, on the macro level there y b this effect with unions of saying let's let, you know, let's let obama take care of it, but i feel like that's actually kind of irrelevant to the actual ground level people like armando in the workplaces. i don't imagine that they were waiting for the larger,

humongous union movement to do something one way or the other on their behalf. they were thinking of their struggle and what they could do and, you know, a lot of the struggles that are going on right now and in some ways have been influenced by republic windows are these smaller workplaces, you know? forget about the auto dustry and the bigger sectors for a moment. i think people at, you know, these 100, 200-person workplaces whether it's obama or bush, their not, you know, they're thinking directly about their situation. and i think, i mean, we can talk more about this, i suppose, later, buts far as whether the question of whether or what kind of difference republic windows has made, i think it sort of, you know, it hasn't revolutionized the whole labor scene in the country. i don't thk anyone thought it would do that necessarily, but there have been a number of, you know, examples of situations that have been directly ip fluented by it and, you know, it's one of those things you can kind of look at as glass half empty or half full, both

pragmatically and sort of symbolically, and there's still time to wait and see what more will happen. >> kari, let's talk a little bit about the book itself as a book. this isn unusual product in the sense that you started writing it onlin while the events were taking place. it was a live book that was being published day-to-day in blog form on the web site of the publisher,elville house. and now it's become a traditional book. can you talk about how, where did this idea of the live book come from, and how did you do that? >> yeah. well, it was melville house's idea, and i want to say a huge thanks to them for inviting me, basically, to do this project. and they realized i think on the day or within several days of the beginning of the occupation what a big story it would be, even before the victory.

they had an idea to get this project out quickly and do it as a quote, unquote, live book. so it was their idea, and they were visiona in realizing how big an ongoing story it would be. i was doing a blog almost daily as i was reporting, and i think the original idea was t actually try to write the chapters in chronological order online and have people comment on them and revise them, but that didn't exactly happen because, you know, your interviews don't unfold in caron logical order and there's all sorts of research and investigation you need to do. the blog was sort of a notebook online that gave me an opportunity to explore parts of different characters or different institutions involved in the story, and a lot of it isn't in the book, but it was tangents that at least in my own mind that formed the analysis of this story.

>> all right here. give me one second so i can read the note from jc here. good. yes. okay. so we're going to have just so that the audience knows get your questions ready because we're going toave a discussion. we're going to open this dialogue up to the eire audience very soon. but before we do that, jc is going to make an announcement, and we're going to take a quick break. is that right,jc. >> when you guys are done. >> okay. and i have no idea what time it is or how -- 25 more minutes? i don't know how i'm going to fi that up. [laughter] no, good. kari, you -- and actually this could go, this is a question at could go either to you or to armando. one of the things that moberg, again, asks in this article --

and i agree the sort of glass half empty or half full -- but he ponders this question why, of whyhe republic has failed to inspire other worker actions. and tre have en some, we should say, there have been some reverberations. there's the hea max men's clothing factories in illinois and new york which in may decidedhe stage a sit-in, and again, connected to credit. wells fargo specifically. you have the quad city dye casting company in moline where things are very much still in play, but this, again, has come down to a question of credit line being extended or not extended to a struggling company. and interestingly, these are situations where you have the company and the workers on one side against the bank be. right? so there's something of a kind of shifting paradigm in terms of

the forces at work. and then there's thishing going on in southern california as well. with warehouse workers united. and yet one of the things moberg talks about is how in many ways there's been a striking, what's been strikin to some extent is how the republic windows and doors struggle has really been a kind of one off and failed to inspire given the economic downturn, given that the conditions have only gotten worse. why have we, do you think, why have we not seen more copy cat incidents and examples of this kind of labor action? >> well, i think one it was just logistally it is kind of a -- i mean, people all along were comparing it to the auto industry sit-down strikes in the 1930s, but it really is a lot different because the companies

needed production to continue so the workers had the power of withholding their labor. that's what strikes always are. this wasn't really a strik at all in that sense, it was an occupation, and all the leverage they had was the physical equipment in the buildin and then more importantly the public opinion. so that's harder, that's much harder to replicate. i mean, when factories are closing everywhere, the workers really are, you know, in a vulnerable situation because withholding their labor doesn't really do muc if the company wants them to stop working and disappear anyway. so i think, and then like say similar situations like the quad city dye casting struggle that the ue is undertaking right now, i don't really know their strategy there, but just theoretilly the company's still open, but it's slated to close. so in the situation like that you can plan, same with heart marks, the workers threatened they would occupy the place if it closed, but i think it's

probably hard to occupy a factory before it closes because then work stops which is what the company was planning to do in the first place, so -- >> and those workers are also represented by ue. >> yeah. so i think it's just a hard spot all around for american workers. >> armando, let's talk a little bit about what' happened since the victory. such as it was. of december and january. you and several other of the workers from republic windows have been going around the country, right? talking abo your story and talking to other workers, labor activists, different community groups. tell us a little bit about that tour, that experience and what kinds of conversations have you had? what have you, what kinds of, you know -- you've been swapping notes with people, and what have you learned about the story as a result of those conversations?

>> well, around december 19 we got our check from the company, fromhe bank which is the, what they owe to us. and thene planning to go in to the east coast and west coast and meet with to talk with the workers and with working people, th unions, and in particur we show like 20 minutes movie including this on our web page on ue.org. we have it there. and we show that video clip to the people, and then we run like, i explain the struggle we've ha since we start until we got from bank of america. and then we have questions and answers in the end.

and one curious thing happened in rhode island, in providence. it was a group of workers in, like, metal church. they been around 70, 80 workers, and it was like 20 days after the company they throw out on the street. they show up to the company, and they saw on the doors just a paper saying we're out of business. and in reality there was real united, and they was waiting for some kind of strategies we could bring to their aid or some kind of conversation to have with us because there was a lot of people around there. they decide to run a meeting before that presentation, and we agreed to do it. we started talking wh these people. it was like i say like 70, 80 workers, and they w carrying a

real, real brave work center which is called centr -- i don't know, i don't remember exactly the name. but in latin the name of this center. and so we explain thoseeople how to, how we deal, and we bring how to -- because they decide, well, probably this money would save the company, and we say you guys have to planning, and then to say how you gonna do it. we give some tips, we tell you have to involve the police, you have to involve the government branches, you have to involve the religious, and you have to involve the community and more unions. so they start doing that, they prepare to that, and then like at two months they take the parking lot -- they can't sit

inside the plant because the company was closed, but when the company start doing the action of the equipment, they took the parking lot. and unfortunately, they be arrested. and in the end i don't know what happened in the end, but they do it. and before this happen, before our occupation around january i been taking testimony with the lawyer that help us to fix this stuff. she was asking me stuff to put press charges against thewner of the republic, former owner of republic windows and doors. so we receive a call from the lawyer sister saying, you know wh? the students they take the classroom, and they demanded to throw out the principal of the school because they don't like the treatment. so she start, she stopped doing what she was doing to me, and she start calling the lawyers

from new york and let her know thathe got a problem, and she would like to help her. so and then we hear so many stuff from cana, they took a place. and ireland they take a glass company. and recently in france they took the company, the auto parts factory, and they threatened the company if they don't give the severance pays and what the company owes to those guys, they say they're going to blow out the factory. and if they give the daytime -- the end of the month, they planning blow up company. >> if they don't meethe deadline. >> and we went to san francisco, and one of the things i met some teacher from the labor college. i don't remember where it is exactly, but it's based out of new york or d.c., but it's on the west or the east side.

no, west side coach. i met a teacher there, and he invited me to go to san francisco. and i've been san francisco for one time, but i don't see the teacher. i've been with andrew, the one who made the dock unit ri of the republic film. and at the end i come back to chicago, and they invite me again to go into thean francisco and make plans and everything. i went there, i talked to the teachers because they are passing right now tremendous deficits in california, and they planning to cut the budget. so they are really, really, they are really, really concerned that what they really wanted is to know from me what we did. and they tried to split all over with the teachers, like the 3,000 teachers in the california state to bring the hope to try to fight for these rights.

and they be really, reallylad of time. so after that i go to a lawyers' conference. yeah, it was a conference for lawyers in california, and they honor me for what we did in our struggle. and it was real nice. it was real -- it was my pleasure to bring everyone and let them know what's happening. and one of the things they asked me whenever we start running the plant. a lot of people ask me that. and at that moment i was really afraid to lose what we proudly was fighting which was our benefits. but in the end and i went to corporate union. i talked to the two guys from la

baca which is one company filmed our news. they take, they own company and they run out, but they own this company. and i met these guys in this place, and we spend the whole day talking about what happened over here and what they do in argentina. and it mak me think, like, in reality if we'd run the company, probably we'd be in the honors right now. but it was like, it was for nobody inform us. nobody give us -- nobody let us know that you could do that and you could be your own honor, i don't know. something, something we need to do because we saw the -- of the company, but it was just a couple guys. it was not in the cafeteria. they put a board, and it was in

a locker room, and they have a projector. so they sid to -- it was like 20 people. it was not much people. >> if people are not familiar with it, the documentary about the classic documentary about factory takeovers was made by lewis and klein which is about a particular factory takver in around general argentina after the debacle of neoliberal structural adjustment in that country at the beginning of this decade. it's pretty widely available, and i highly recommend it. kari talks about it a bit in the book, right, kari? i mean, what's the -- and actually leia freed of new york has participated in discussions about the international kind of how factory takeovers around the world have been one vital strategy. >> yeah. well, and i think as far as the,

you know, like armando was saying the workers' ultimate dream would have been to run the factory themselves, and they knew how to. physically they could have done it, but my understanding, i mean, i'm not a business expert, but to run a small business like that unless you're independently wealthy or something, you usually do need financing from a bank, so it kind of comes back to the banks. even if they were 100 percent capable of running this company profitably, chances are the banks weren't going to give them financing especially after they'd extracted $2 million from the banks. [laughter] i think it was just much harder to do that here in the u.s. than it would have been in argentina or a lot of ore places. and they did try. i think when they got this offer from serious materials they saw that as the right thing to do at the moment, and i guess who knows what you'll try in the future. >> jc, i think we're ready to hand things over to you before we handhings over to the

audience. if you want to go ahead and make the announcement. >> yeah, sure. it's pretty hot out this summer, so we were going to take a five-minute break if anyone wants to get up and take a drink. >> soive minute, no more, and then back to ask your questions of kari and armando. so now for the, for part two of our discussion with kari riderson and armando roles about kari's really impressive book, revolt on goose island. i'm goi to say one thing before we open up the floor to discussion. some of you have seen, perhaps, this documentary about the late french sociologist called sociology is a martial art. it's a very interesting film. and at the end of the film there's a very memorable scene

where bordeaux is, goes to an arab neighborhood, an algerian neighborhood of paris and engages in this very kind of high-voltage, intellectual political exchange with the youth and be the activists and some of the young graduate students in this community in the algerian community of paris. and at one point there's this kind of contentious exchange, and bordex says to a particular person who's asked him this very -- basically this young activist says to bordeaux, i mean, what do we, what is all this sociological nonsense? i mean, you're not talking about our experience. and you think at that moment that bordeaux might change his tone, and instead he actually recommends this book to the crowd. he recommends a book written by

an algerian intellectual living in france which is atudy of the history o the algerian community of paris. and he ss, you should really seriously read this book and read it carefully and discuss it and debate it because you'll learn a lot about yourselves by reading this book. it's a fascinating moment in the film because there's this kind of arrogant here's this french intellectual telling these dispossessed, marginal inhabitants of the bonn he you of paris what they should be reading and they should be learning about themselves. but the reason mention this story is thain reading this book my comrade and i were talking about this on the way here tonight. some of us were involved in this story or, you know, kind of living and breatng it 24/7 around the clock in december and january when it was unfolding.

people at ue, people at interfaith worker justice, and, you know, we were really involved and kind of on top of the story, but when we read your book, kari, there were things that we learned about our own experience, you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who was more involved than adam, and yet there were things in the book that were new to us, so i just really want to plug kari's book as something where we can learn a lot about ourselves and about this story by reading kari's book, and i think it's an incredibly important contribution to what's going to be -- i mean, there are going to be people studying what happened. there already are. and armando talked about his tour arod the country talking to different activists who are trying to learn from, you know, what happened in those critical weeks in december. and kari's book is the

definitive study of that episode. so it will be a really valuable source to people who want to look back on it and figure out what happened and what might happen in the future. so let's see, jc, what's the procedureere for asking questions? do we want to have people just stand up? is there a microphone we're passing around? >> [inaudible] >> okay, great. who's got a question they'd like to pose to kari? very good. >> last week i was at a forum where people were speaking about tips, and the allegation was made that tif money, that is property tax mundy accelerated from school districts and other local taxing bodies, was used to help build the factory at republic windows and doors and then once they got the hardware at the facility in chicago, they moved it to a nonunion location in iowa. so is there any truth to the

fact that taxpayer money was used to prop up this operation from the beginning? and then once they got the hardware they needed they just took it away to a nonunion location? >> sort of. kind of. well, basically just the real short version of at happened is, yeah, whenepublic built a new factory on goose island, it used to be in a former location, it did get close to $10 million of tif money, and people who follow that know this is a controversial kind of subsidy thing. so anyway, after this whole scandal one of the outcomes that we didn't mention of the republic windowshing was that an ordnance was padsed that put some -- passed that tries to prevent that from happening. part of the conditions when that 10 million was begin was that they maintain 500 jobs which they didn't even before the factory closed. so there was a cityrdnance passed that tries to inshire,

you know, when a company gets taxpayer money, they have to do what the said th would do. and then the iowa thing, that was a whole big part of the story which we didn't get into but, again hopefully the short version was that the owner was trying that whole scene that armando described with the stuff being moved at night. the owner was moving the equipment to a factory in iowa that his wife had bought. it was also a window factory, and it was nonunion although the workers were actually paid decently, so i'm not, u know, but anyway, it was a nonunion factory. and then two months after buying it, richard gilman closed and his wife closed that factory down putting about 100 people in red oak, iowa, out of work thatted that had decent jobs, you kno before he bought their factory and pulled these shenanigans, so yeah. >> armando, did you want to add something to that? including the wife of the major from the -- the one in charge of

this town, she was working there. and the other -- i don't know you remember when biden come to talk to the stimulus package to the company -- >> joe bind. >> and it was grabbing my shoulder like that. it was mayor daley on the left side he was telling me, you know what? they're giving money to these workers, and look what he did. ten years ago. [laughter] it was real, real psed off. [laughter] daly. >> what's wrong with this picture? [laughter] >> [inaudible] >> well, let's actually talk about that a little bit, like sort of the political dynamics. how did it come to be that this very militant action drew the support of some very establishment, you know, political figur?

how did that play out? and there were also some really tricky things as you discuss in the book, kar irk, and those of us who are on the ground at the time were not thrilled that this was the final public appearance of then governor rod blagojevich before he was hauled off. so there were so many things that were very tricky, because we were trying to get national media anticipation for this story which -- attention for this story which it seemed like there was this gust of wind in our sails because of obama's press conference and his statement supporting the workers. and then just as all the cnn trucks and national newspapers were showing up, just as quickly people be were called off to springfield to cov the blagojevich scandal. so how did this all play out in terms of kind of apparatus? >> yeah. well, practically every major politician was visiting the factory at least, you know,

before the blagojevich arrest ich drew a lot of people away, but, yeah, every, you know, politician wanted to be part of the struggle and wanted to claim a role for themself in the struggle which i think spes, one, just to the nationwide mood that was so much more pro-labor and pro-struggle than before the economic crisis. and then also just the history of chicago. i mean, chicago has been, the liticians here, you know, everyone here is proud of the labor history and, you know, view themselves as kind of heros of the working class, you know, whether they actually are or not, but that's an image that politicians here always want to embrace, so this was, you know, a perfect opportunity for that. and the politicians did play, you know, an important role in it, so, yeah. >> one of the thing about when the politicians showed to the company is because the president-elect on that moment mention about our struggle, and

then the governor when he came to the company, he say bank of america saying that the state gonna cutll the business with bank of america. and he did it. so when this happened, so when we been at the bank of america, the bank of america start told to the state representatives to release what he did with the state and let the state have business with the bank of america. and they say we don't have the power. the only people who sign and give, release the president the governor. so then that make to the bank of america lose a lot of money on that day. andhen after the

president-elect made his statement they said our first concern is the workers. but after the president-elect statement before they looked, they say, who you are? but after that they look at the people, like, they tried to -- they say our main concern is the workers. ..

>> i still think, i see it very positive because that kind of culture will take a long time coming. i don't think it will be an overnight situation. answer to expect that we're going to have that kind of a change that quickly without the building process that needs to happen to me would seem to be, you know, a ridiculous idea.

but that doesn't at all i think, yo do, that something has happened. the thing with marx is amazing that a much more conservative union ultimately part because of internal politics, partly because of the things decided to embrace republic windows and doors and say we're going to pour republic, inur case, whether not they would is another question. that is amazing. data showing a shift in thinking that could be built on. i am curious to get your response to that. >> yeah, that is one of the things i thought was real interesting. you know, encouraging about the support was, like you said, that all of the major union leaders were up there with big groups of their membership. you know, unions that in the past, the cio had essentially kicked the ue out six years ago and during part of an anti-communist purge and the ue is ointment a lot more left wing

and militant and, you know, created i guess you could say that a lot of the larger mainstream unions. so i think that was a sign that all the unions know that something different is needed. you know, i mean, they all have sort of glory days that were more built-in and i'm sure people want to harken back so this was probably a way of, you know, also can vicariously reliving their own history. >> interesting. symbolism really. it was almost like as jerry suggesting, almost like you couldn't not supported, right? it caught fire precisely because of that moment, matrix of issues and defense. and kind of actually, you know, let the fire from behind of a lot of people in the labor movement and elsewhere who, you

know, had not exactly been fans of the ue before. it was kind of event you could not not support. there was a question right here in the middle of. >> i was wondering, this is for both of you. i wonder if you could talk about the neighborhood of facts of some of what happened of the whole takeover because i'm curious about, number one where the workers lived, and kind of where were their bases of support. i know the coach was important. but i guess i'm gondering how this whole issue played out in the neighborhood. and the long-term effects that might have. >> particular, in my case, i i go out from the aspect when this happened, like it, they be in the school. when i go and pick up my kids from the school, all the teachers told me, we see you

there. i am sorry. that is worse what happened to you. we don't know what's going to happen to our factory. and other stuff. and then they start telling me oh, you are famous. we see ou on the tv. inuding in the church when i be on the church on family. we would hear in church, and then the father of, the father told my name and say you come over. so i'd be on the stage in front. and he said, okay, i would like to please give our mental applause. years with the company republic ndow and door. and this made me, like how he know that? and it was a lot of things happen. and my kids, they came to me and say, dad, my teacher said hello, you are famous. [laughter] >> had one day i came to the school, and tha teacher from my little kid told me you are

famous. and the little kids sake how you feel being famous? [lghter] >> and a lot of things happened. >> wait till they see this on c-span. [laughter] >> yes. >> kari, just wondering, it if you were facing a million workers who is representing many different companies who are in the same situation as goose island, what three key things would you tell them? >> i mean, since i, you know, as a journalist i feel sortf like an imposter answering that, but i mean i guessust from my reporting and from this lesson, i mean, i think the key things here was the widespread community support. and you know, making you feel like it was the whole city struggle or even the whole world struggle somewhat. so that is really key. and i guess just the willingness

to take a risk, you know, which they didn't end up being arrested but they forgot the code which could've had really serious ramifications for a lot of people. but the risk paid off. so that is to. >> armando? >> i think the three keys is, first, that people have to know the coworkers, and inform each one. i was spending my lunch time, my break time, talking in the lunchroom. you know this is happening with the company. we havto be prepared for the worst. we know -- and each time we would, clues, each time with something happen, it doesn't happen right away from like a flash. it happened like, not

spontaneous. it happened little by little. and from clues or the company anything to you. so like we starts in the company. .com.com and tell me to turn off the lights in the middle of the night. usuay the people work two hours overtime. some people, not everyone like two or three times the work overtime and shut all the doors. they tell us to go refigure the machines. and then the worst thing, to the company, arrive, new machines. and we take the label from those plates and the machines come to the company, because one of the engineers from republic, they brought thse machines to iowa, but because something happened, he told the guys to send theto

his house. when he received the machines, his mom say oh, not machine at my house because i need garage for my car. said into my son's work. so we take the label from there and i search, i was on my iphone so i searched -- i googled the address from there and it was the engineer's house. so we keep that one to prove. so there are clues and you have to have your eyes opened for anything could happen. and you're working there and it is like you live more time in your working area than your house. and you now that things are there. when you start seeing, usually the company give us town meeting each month. they stopped doing that. they start selling stuff. they start bringing stuff, and each thing we start taking.

screws. so we have to have open eyes. we have to have forum other woers what happened. what i ago i talked to him. veteran. and he's going to learn and let him know what i said. so there's a thing, that we have to inform the people what is happening, no matter what. he has to receive the information and then things happen. >> other questions? i sesome hands up. there must be at least one more question. yes. >> i have been listening to the commentary here for a few minutes. and it sounds like something dramatic has to happen in order to get people involved, get them motivated. my question to you is, is there

a way we could get people to be concerned about what is happeng around them and in fect to them without some dramatic catalyst happening? i mean, things happening every day. i mean, blackwater just oned up a compound and very few people care about the palestinians are being exterminated. nobody cares. you know, the window company closes. you have been telling people all along that there is a problem in the factory. how do youet people to respond to things happening around them? >> well, when does start to us and become to -- i mentioned when we come to the news, the supervisor told the workers don't show up at their regular time, to show up hours later. we came to the company to meeting at 10:00 and they tell the bank of america, no.

we were having speakers, we sold a. they tell us it is bank of america. they give us, they cut our credit line. so when we know that bank of america washe one don't give the credit line to the republic, we could start telling republic to art, republic to our spirit but we think that we have to think and use our strategy. and we find out first, we know the equipment is now from the owner of the republic because he let us know that. and we start saying this machine is going out. we don't want to have anything. so we have to, don't let nobody takeout this machine from the company to receive our benefit or whatever. this is our last chance fight

back. and we start thinking how we going to present to the public. and the best way to do it is saying the bank received theirs and we did not. this make all the workers identify with that. they feel like their own life. so that, everybody's courage. it is happening here. it is happening in california. it is happening anywhere, any state in the united states that people is losing jobs. so if we say yes, republic winners and doors, nothing happened. but if we say the bank bailed out and we sold out, everybody think, it is reality. we see months ago they receive a lot of a lot of steaest package or bailout from the government and look at workers. to me, and it can happen to anybody.

that's why we received a lot of support, a lot of help from people because they identify with the issues. >> did you want to add to that, kari? >> that pretty much sums it up. the question is why people identified witthe struggle because they felt like they could be in the same boat. no, why people don't identi with palestinians or others in the world being cilled by blackwater forces or whatever. but there are so may people i could have felt that could've been. >> that raises the question of if the economy begins to recover, and people's pocketbooks are not as precarious, people's economic situations are not as precarious as they have been since september, october and november, would that tend -- what would

that portend for these kind of issues that the gentleman is asking about other people's abity to identifyith, you know, people in dire straits? are people going to care less and see themselves as much? i think it is sort of a tricky formula. other questions or kari or our mental wrecks one thing i would like to do, not to cut off the discussion but just to let people know what some of the critics have had to say about kari's book, mike davis, the eminent historian, author of city imports, planet of slums in many other books, had the following to say about it. there i much talk about audacity these days. but when workers take over the factory and take on the bank,

kari and viable account of the reblic sit down strike is an instruction manu for worker dignity. i bet you this is the only book other from board for mike davis and barack obama. [laughter] >> other questions or kari? gas. >> i was curious about the format. how did people get the idea when your first posting it online, was there a lot of response? >> did everybody here that question? about the format of the book, that it was originally chronicled online as a life book. >> yeah, there actually wasn't as much response as i would have liked, but there was some response. and it was really an enriching experience because people did get meff. for example, everyone was saying

this was the first factory occupation in seven years which actually wasn't true. and people tipped me off too, you know, other occupations that i hadn't known about and other thgs worth investigating. it is a medium that i hopother publishers ask for moren the future. >> and just to follow-up on that. we briefly touched on this earlier, but this book that we have here tonight is nosimply a compilation of your life book chronicle that was published online. although it does overlap in significant ways. so in case people think i'm not going to buy the book. i'm just goi to go read the website. why would anybody want to read 200 pages online? i don't understand. but this is again kind of a boat related to but distinct from the life book project, right? >> yeah. >> and how much did history, you

know, i remember when you are beginning to report the book and you want to talk to people viously who, you know, had been involved in labor struggles in the past. and i sent you to cj hawking because at the time she and steve ashley were working on their book about the daily strike of 1990s, and and liechtenstein whose name has come up tonight, you know, published a piece at the time talking about the historical kind of thread of worker occupations in militant factory takeovers. to what extent did those historical chapters and form your approach to this book? >> well, just in a national, kind of in a lot of ways how different things are now and how using a cookie-cutter appach, not that there was ever a cookie-cutter approach in labor but using tactics that worked in the past when work exactly the

same when a. this whole thing up targeting the banks. there were new things that were developed using inspiration from the past to address the current climate. >> and armando, to what extent did the workers in the factory take lessons from other periences? i mean, you talked about the role of the film, the take, that documenty. to what extent, what were those discussions like about, you know, you were just making it up as you went along. you are making major existential cisions, but you were just making it up out of thin air. there were ideas, there were strategies, there were models. >> yeah, from years we organized with ue, like five years we get with ue. d we learned. in the past we have corrupt union and that union, just

ordinary. including, i met a union representative two years after being a union member. one of the union representatives come to me like two years after i started being part of the union and he said what is your name? and i sd armando robles. and he said are you in the union? i said i am becau they take my cues. and he said here is your membership card. so we bowl to take our union. and we run a huge, huge campaign to take out his union and bring ue to our company. and it was a huge and tremendous campaign against the company and the old union, because they are giving us cookouts. they put up basketll playground outside of the coany. they put table in the cafeteria, and they put xbox games in the

cafeteria also. day was running eve week of meeting, including the owner of the company. he put his picture and the picture of the first local 1110 president and he said he was involved in this movement. the guy, one cpu, he has poor man. and are later, he talked. if you want to use one of my pictures, just put some dress. and then in the end, on november 10, 2004, we win. and i start organize people. and i do like eight months in my free times, lunchtimes, break

times, before i start working i was passing flyers. they organized a saying you have the right to do whatever you have to do, you talk to us. you talk about the movie. you talk about your family. you have a right to talk to the union. you have the right to wear a union shirt there you have a right to wear a speaker of the ue. you have a right to pass flyers during your own time. do we learn about that. and then we start, our first contract with ue, it was $3. and the first contract, it was $3 for three years. our first increase. and illinois state never happened, and we never me th. it was 11 workers, 11 workers from republic started meeting with company. in the past the company and

union bring your contract, and they going to cut this, this and this and that is that. it was already signed. before that contract, they first freeze our wages three years. so we fight. we went $3. we were having bonus. and we say we don't want those. what we want is to convert the 80 percent of the last year bonus and wages. so some people, they make like $4 in the first wage, dollar 25, which is like $5 almost for the three years. and we start growing us leaders. we have grievance committee, grievance etings with the company. we involve president, vice president, chief stores and

grievance committee. we made the stewards start filing grievances. and it's the way we start learning how to fight back versus the company. and i always talk to the people when i talk to people, local, it is not like everydy see in the news and everything. and when we have peace with the company and the union, when it's not no troubles or any issues, the workers, ourselves start fighting each other. were like fight groups and people fighting each other. and i got a conclusion of that. you have to fight back the company. th's what i feel like each time kind of struggle with big problem, we respond as brothers.

there's other times that happened there and i hear from others, they say you know what, your local is the most controversial. you haven't. but why when they feel, like nobody. >> it seems like on at note maybe we should wrap up before people feel like they are stuck in a factory occupation. [laughter] >> and two, i would imagine you would be happy to sign your book for folks who might want to purchase it. it is available right there at the stop smiling people. we also have copies of theook i mentioned by cj hawking and stephen ashby called staley, the fight for a new american labor movement, and also a book by the executive director of the organization i work for, kim bobo whose book wage for america, how millions of americans are not getting paid and what we can do about it, is

also available for supergen is interesting timing that today, just today, a bill was introduced in congress called the wage theft prevention act, was introduced by congressman henry miller of california who chairs the house labor and education committee. you're going to be hearing a lot more about this issue of wage theft. the republic windows and doors struggle was actually one part because of the law that was olated by the company and shutting down without giving either notice or 60 days the seventh that, that is a violation of u.s. labor law. it is a form of wage theft. and interface just as in chicago are launching this national campaign to end wage theft, and today was a historic day in that campaign and is legislation being introduced to congress. so if anybody is interested in

finding out more about what you can do to end wage theft, which you can do to support the kind of struggles that armando is involved in, please visit the table in the back of the room over there where we have members of a rise chicago, the rise chicago worker center. you can get on our mailing list. you can sign up for our newsletter. you can buy a copy of kim bobo's book. but first and foremost be sure to get a copy of kari lydersen's outstandingook "revolt on goose island" and what it says about the economic crisis. thanks so much, kari and armando. [applause] >> thank you, guys.

>> the united states holocaust museum has undertaken a research project, and it is in book form. this is volume one of the research project. geoffrey megargee is the editor. what is this project? >> this is an encyclopedia of all the different camps and ghettos that determines durin the nazi period and all their allies. >> how many have you found? >> we have found, well within the volumes come were going to have about 20000. 20000 camps. >> were you surprised at the never? >> yes we were. >> why? smack whei came onboard in 2000, the people that created the project, historians themselves had estimated that there were about five to 7000 sites that we would be looking

at. this turned out to be one of those instances in which a lot of different people around the world have been doing research and their own little corners and nobody had ever put the numbers together. 's so when we started looking through secondary sources and contacting historians and finding out about the different categories of camps, the numbers start to build. and within about three or four years we were up to 20000. >> what are the different categories? >> the big ones are the concentration camps. plus the many sub camps around them. and that is what this first one deals with a large part. each of those places had something like 124 sub cam associated with it. places where the prisoners stayed and worked. many other big categories would be prisoner of war camps and forced labor camps and ghettos. >> what are some examples of a forced labor camp? >> in addition to a