punitive i nature, the germans also brought millions of people into nazi germany simply to support the war economy. they were not being punished necessarily. >> not jewish necessarily. >> not necessarily. the were put in a separate system. with a forced labor camp or to support this war economy to allow germany to manufacture the arms that are needed to fight the war. >> and you also talked about pow camps. >> just. >> and those are coddled in these encyclopedias also? >> they will. >> how many of those have you found so far? >> we are looking at about 1000 main pow camps. the pow camps also had sub camps and the numbers there are astounding and well beyond our ability to cover than any encyclopedia. >> you mentioned.com. how is it developed that they would have 124 sub camps?

how was that organized? >> this was a given function most of the war economy. some of the concentration camps were originally created in part to serve economic ends, it had a quarry nearby. for mining zone, according stonily be would be used in nazi grand architecture that hitler was planning for berlin, for example. but over time, especially as it got into 1943 and even 1944 as the war economy needed more and more labor, the as the randy's camps started to sort of farm out their prisoners, what about literally, the military-industrial concerns. and they decided pretty quickly the most efficient way to do that was actually have a chance at the worksites. so the systems of sub camps developed from their. >> about how many people do you

estimate were processed through these 20000 camps? >> we don't really have an overall estimate. there were, at the height of the concentration camp system there were about 750,000 people in that period that would've been right at the beginning of 1945 before they started having to retreat and evacuate a lot of them. that is not the total number that went through there. that would probably total, i'm guessing here to some extent, but at least a couple of million. probably more than that. there were something like 10 million forced laborers in germany, if i recall correctly. pows, probably about a similar number. so you're looking at tens of millions of people. >> how did the system developed? how did the germans develop this stem? wasn't done by one bureaucracy or was it just sporadic? >> no. i mean, i used the word system as well for lack of anything better, but strictly speaking you could call it a system.

each set of cans developed more or less on its own. this first wave of the encyclopedia covers the early camps about a hundred of those that develop in the first few months after the nazi's came to power. and then from those, the concentration camps evolved and so this was where the punitive side. pow camps were in no part of fighting war. forced labor camps came into play as the war economy really got coing and they started running out of workers. then they were all kinds of very specialized smaller categories of camps. for their own speci purposes. >>ut nobody in charge, say, in berlin who is in charge of setting all this up? >> no. all run by different bureaucracies. as a matter ofact, i think was in a sense part of a nazi system for each bureaucracy to want to have its own camps. i think, and we don't have firm evidence of this, but i think this was something that for a lot of nazi bureaucrats

indicated that they had power. no, i have my own body of prisoners or that i can go. i have my own purpose for which i have camps. >> what were the first of camps that the nazi developed? >> these were the so-called what historians call the earl camps. they were developed on an ad hoc basis by local authorities. the brownshirts. in some cases the ss or the local police, to handle political prisoners, communist and socialist especially at the beginning. peoplehat the nazis considered to be arch enemies and that they were determined to eliminate. they didn't eliminate most of them physically but they put them into these camps and torture them and put them to work. and more or le make sure they were not going to be active members of the political scene any more. >> where does the 1940 to find a solution meeting fit into all of this? did that develop more camps?

>> i don't believe that the conference develop more camps directly. this is really an implementation meeting. the decision for the final solution had been made, most escorts agree on that. and they were already, there was already one camp in operation. there were others coming on what i'm talking about extermination centers now. that were designed solely for the purpose of killing people. the conference was, this was his opportunity to get all of these other bureaucrats together from different ministries within the government and say okay, i am in charge of this effort to wipe out the jews. and you all have to follow in line. so this beating is to sort out in the bureaucratic obstacles to that. >> what have you discovered about life in these camps? at the various levels. >> it carried.

it buried i think more than most people realize. if you were an english or american prisoner ofar, you were at to some extent the top of the hierarchy. the nazis did not consider you to be racially dangerous. you were as close to quote unquote aryans as anyone was going to get. and also the nazi's fear to some extent the treatment of their own pows might be negative if they mistreated americans and british. so you put those things together and those prisoners fared. some people are separate and put into concentration camps. most of them had received red cross parcels, through most of the war,nd they did all right. at the other end of the spectrum, even just within the pow communhty, if you look at

soviet pows. the germans captured about three and a third. >> three and a third million? >> gets. about two and a third milli war dead by the spring of 1942. several hundred thousand of them shot outright because they were communists or jews. more of them killed through forced labor and starvation, exposure, disease, simply being neglected. so that was the other end of the pow spectrum. you can go in a sense farther without with the jews and the extermination centers who are simply broht it to be killed. >> how my extermination centers have you discovered the? >> we count six. because we have this narrow definition of an extermination center. but its primary purpose was to kill. we avoid the terdeath camps because that gets applied to a lot of choices were a lot of people died where conditions were horrible. but the purpose was not primarily to kill people.

so we cannot toss with, to blink a calm and the others escape me at the moment. that was a concentration camp. >> really? who was there? >> political prisoners at first. this was the first of the ss concentration camps. it was created along with the other early camps in the very beginning of 1933. and then when s. s. took over the early camps and 34, 35, and close most of them down they kept dakow open. they opened a few others. and dakow became one of their sort of model camps. it held political prisoners at first but then increasingly all of the different groups that the germans brought into the concentration camp system, homosexuals, political prisoners of various stripes from all over europe, resistance fighters. you know, anyone who tried to buck the system really could

become a concentration camp prisoner. >> you also talk abo the different ghettos. how do you define a ghetto and how many of those have you discovered the? >> we define a gato for the purposes of the encyclopedia, we've had to be use a rather practical approach to its. a gato is place where were concentrated usually in an existing jewish neighborhood or in some part of the city or town near prior to their merger. they were again created on sort of an ad hoc basis. as the germans advanced eastward and they started in 1940 in bold, but especially as they advance in the soviet union in 1941. they needed to do something with all of these jews. they weren't sure quite what they were going to do with them in the end yet, but in the meantime, they needed to concentrate them. and disturbed really three

purposes. to concentrate them and kept them under control. they were not given a whole lot in terms of food or medical care. so a lot of them were killed off in that way. several of them i think, 1.2 meg or so died within the ghetto's. and it also, well, keeping them under control and killing them off was the main thing but also allowed them to work for the german war economy to some extent. >> how many have you discovered? >> about 1200. >> about 1200. how did you do this research? >> we have not done all that much of it. we depend largely on outside contributors. now saying that there was about 30 percent of his first one that we had to write ourselves. mostly from secondary sources. and that propoion will probably increase as we go along because most of these categories have not been thoroughly researched. we have right now three or four people who are working for us

who are writing entries o doing research for entries. it's not a huge team to be doing something of this scale, but over time we are able to manage it. but for the most part we depend on local experts. with volume one, for instance, we had people in the memorial sites in the museums there who volunteered to write all of the sub camp entries for those places. and other instances, we might come across someone who knew about one camp. he or she had made that his or her particular study, knew all about and they could write that one entry for us. >> and halibut an the? >> for a main concentration camp we're looking at about 2500 words. not a lot. that is abou10 doublespaced pages. and obvious the cover in place like dakow, that amount of space

is ludicrous in one sense. but we know that this is not the main source that people will go to for camps like that. with the sundance, any entries that are about half that length. about 1250 words. ones we could get enough information for the. the subject of the places that a less well-known. these are the places that are really important for us to document because information on them is just not available anywhere else. and serves for one thing, to document the suffering of the people who were there. and the survivors with whom i have spon have been very impressed that we have been able to do this for that in a sense. and also is a big slap in the face to deniers as well. a part of the job i particularly enjoy. >> geoff megargee is the editor of the first, of this first volume, part one and two. how many volumes will be coming out the? >> seven. >> seven total?

>> yes. >> the specific volume is about? athe specific barn that is out now is about? >>he subject matter? this covers the early concentration camps that i talkedbout. and the main concentration camp system, the big names and their sub camp. >> what will the future volumes be? >> they are organized by type of candidate we got that give people an opportunity to see what the system was like inasmuch as there was one. so volume two will cover german ghettos. german three was military. volume four were a satellite state. volume bible do with another set of cans at another branch of the ss. six will do with forced labor camps not under the ss,un by private firms and other governmental organizations. and seven will be sort of a catchall, things that didn't fit anywhere else. >> were the folks who did a lot

of the research, did they find things, anything in the german archives? >> yes. especially for volume one. that's whe most of the information comes out of. >> is it documented, these can't? >> it depends on the camp but generally, yes. >> what kind of document would you find? >> we would have document and setting up the camps, documents testifying to who was sent there, how many people, what kind of prisoners, what kind of work they did, things of that nature. and then we have also prisoner testimony about what life was like in the camps. you know, what kind of treatment they received, people were killed, that sort of thing. >> what is your goal with encyclopedic? >> is really twofold. one is to provide basic information about as many of these places as was we possibly can. and so we have a series of research questions that we asked each of our contributors to try to answer. what kind of prisoners were

there, how many, who ran the place, who guarded it, what was its purpose, what kind of work was done and for whom, what companies. how do people live, how did people buy, where the trials of camp personnel after the war. all of that sort of thing. so that is one goal. the other goal is to provide a foundation for further research. and so each of these entries has a source section which discusses where the author found the injured patient that is in the. it serves as a starting point for anyone who wants to try to continue on. as you see we also have footnotes to particularly important point within each entry. >> how long have you been working on this project? >> aost 10 years. it will be 10 years in january. >> how much longer will you go? >> where hoping to get the whole thing done by 2018. we've been working on various volumes in tandem. so we are about two years away from bringing volume two out and we hope every two years or so after that to come out with

another one. >> who do you think once these? >> well, the people who will purchase them will primarily be libraries. they are expensive. it's not something that an ordinary person normally is going to go out and buy. althgh i have talked to some folks who want them. scholars who need these kind of reference work sample library them themselves. >> are they available at the museum? >> gas gas. >> at the website? >> it is u.s. h. and m..org. >> u.s. holocaust memorial museum.org. >> yes. but abbreviated. >> geoff megargee is the editor of the entire project, but here, volume one is now out. "encyclopedia of camps and ghettos, 1933-1945". thank you. >> thank you very much.

>> deborah gordon come and 2900 cars are on the road in the world today? >> there are just over 1 billion cars on the world's roads. not just cars motor vehicles. cars, trucks, buses, loss of two wheelers on the road today. >> how many in the u.s.? >> in the u.s., abo 300,000. spec 300,000 or 300 billion? >> three hundred million. >> is that too many? >> this is the issue. the issue is that if we want, if wh we have, the mobility we have which is wonderful, if we want to replicate that to the world, you can't do it the way -- the world can do it the way we have done in terms of oil, internal combustion. it is just, there is not going to be enough air, enough in terms of climate change, enough

oil to did what we have done. >> has the world tried in the late the u.s.? >> it is at a crossroads right now. china, india, brazil, russia, most of asia, they are all following us. affluence has made more mobility which is wonderful, and t way it has been, gm going to china and saying by our partner so it are at the crossroads where could the conventional order really could be different. that is a lot of what this book is about. >> y say there's about 1 billion motor vehicles on the roads today. the title of your new book, co-authored by daniel sperling, says "two billion cars." >> over the last 100 years, we have invented the car and fuel it with oil and we have grown now to a billion. in the next 15 years, we expect to double that to 2 billion.

and that is the road that we are on. it is incredibly fast. >> why? >> for the sake of affluence and mobility. and right now the only technogy we have four mobility is a motor vehicle. spec where is the growth of? >> the growth is in china, number one. india number two. brazil and russia also. indonesia, really throughout asia, largely throughout asia. in america, we have one car per person. we're going to be replacing our cars. that is a big question that what i'm going to replace our cars with. are going to replace them with the 20-mile per gallon suv that we already own or something ally novel. >> is the american dream and the american car dream gone in your view of? >> i think that the dinosaur vehicles and that we drive should be gone. i think mobility is not gone. we will want to be as mobile as ever. will have to think of far more creative ways to be mobile and

cars that get 80 or 100 miles per hour using our blackberries to hook us up with automatic car share services, using paratransit to pick us up where we have to go. we have already started telecommuting, not always coming. when i wrote this book with advanced berling, i think that we ended up getting together in five years of writing a few times that we had a virtual experience writing this book. so there uasn't a lot of miles or oil or car trips or airplane trips in this book. and i think that's a type of productivity will have to think more about. >> what about when it comes to transport and actually moving people? what's the solution? >> probably choice. right now we have no choe. if you want to go somewhere you came here and you go presumably. if you want to go somewhere, 95 percent of the time you are driving. and 90 percent of the energy in that car is oil. we have no choice in vehicles that we have no choice in fuels. that is the biggest problem that we have to start thinking about

different types of cars that are more fuel-efficient using type of tools like electricity and biofuels. and then having the mobility option. so it's not always a car that you have to. pic if you are old or young, or you are disabled or if you're injured and you are poor, you don't have a car. cars are not an option to end that is a big part of the population here and everywhere in the world. so we need to have much more creative, inventive, you know, differentiated ways of moving ourselves around. >> in your book you talk about some alternative fuels, former administration of president bh put a big investment into hydrogen. is that sustainable? >> hydrogen is a really interesting case that it has always been 25 years out. when i started working in to steal 20 years ago it was 25 years out. today it is still 25 years i. hydrogen is, it is in everything. so finding and getting it and,

it is very small. is this most volatile. is a very challenging. many of us think hydrogen will ultimately be the carrier but in the meantime we're going toave electric motors, electric, we plug in electric hybds now. and more and more work is going into liquid biofuels. not corn ethanol, that's what we've seen so far. not going to food and then bring it back to fuel. but grass and algae and garbage. that will be useful for liquid fuel and trucks. >> is that still 25 years out? >> inc. has much closer in. the big part is a very cheap water with a 25 years of stanza but we haven't done much research. we haven'tthe oil industry, the auto industry, just hasn't done that much. the economy was such that oil was where we were at. and then we had this bottle last summer and people realized it might not be a stable, many of

us have seen a long time that oil could be any price. it is a global market. it is a huge market. it is an irrational market. it is caught up in wars and skirmishes. so the price could be anything looking at. and that's what gives incentives for change. >> some of the energy crisis that we face in this country, the 1970s, 2008, have improved our efficiency? has the marketplace responded? >> it is really interesting to see at the moment of crisis, backend 1973 and 74 and 78, 79 and thenast summer, how quickly people respond to price. i think it is heartening actually to say that there are price point where people actually change their behavior, companies we change their product. the cover will stand up and say this is actually a good thing. but what happens in between has been the valley of death. so in between these crises,

we've had pluets and in the last 25 years a very long floor on oil at $40 a barrel, $50 a barrel. announced $1.85 at the pumps whe there is no motivation to do anything. >> so is it, do we rely on the market place in your view or should the u.s. government step in? should it be a global effort? >> i don't think we can rely on the market place. i think it's just too cyclical and it's very much caught up in a global market like i said which is dysfunctional. so it will take a government. it will take federal policies that are going to have more efficiency built in, alternative fuels, basic research, incentives for consumers. again, consumers are reacting to the price that they see. so when the price rose to $4 a gaon last summer, everyone stepd away from trucks. and now decembers, suvs and trucks are back at. we need a government to

stabilize, whether it is a price floor on oil and in fuel economy standards. it's going to take regulation and senate to change behavior of consumers and corporations. >> how did you become an analyst? >> i started out actually really interesting and alternative fuels during the second oil crisis and called as a chemical engineer. when i graduated from clege, i am telling my age or. when graduate every joke o every exciting future oriented job that i was interested in dried up overnight. and i ended up doing transportation. the energy side of transportation policy, as opposed to alternative fuels because there was no market. and there have been no market. one big transformation could be energy companies instead of oil companies. it interesting. we have heard very little from axon at the time when gm is in crisis. exxon is not really speaking up.

and i find that curious because they are the other side of the coin is the car and you look at it as both sides now with transportation. so i would like to see energy company, to energy companies that are thinking beyond oil. >> you have worked with china. is there a national policy on transportation in china that you think the u.s. could perhaps draw from? >> china actually adopted fuel economy standards a couple of years ago and they are more stringent than america's, which tells you something. because we have our fuel economy standards for the first oil crisis, and then they sat at very low levels. they sat at 20 and a half miles for cars for 25 years and then they just have been raised with a lot of, you know, after the price of oil spiked. so already china is a job again i think with it the first. and the reason that i think china and india will both jumping ahead of america on this is they don't have oil, indigenous oil is a. like us, they have a lot of coal

and oil. you have the largest transportation oil consumer and in the two growing consumer oils, china and india, and they have some oil but they d't have the oil that is going to really fuel the fleas they are imagining that they will have. i think that will create either tremendous political turmoil on the downside. or on the upside tremendous innovation. an the hope is that america will be the innovator and will sell the world cars. but that is left to be seen. it might just be that china and india to sell us their cars. back everyone watching is wondering do you have a car? >> i do have a carpet and i have a car that i am breathing life into. it is a leveling years old. is hobbling along. and i want a very fuel efficient hybrid station wagon because they don't make one. >> you lived in southern california. you live in northernalifornia.

you know that here in charlottesville, virginia. are you ae to get around with public transportation? >> i am able, not able to get around to. th is a very broke out i w able to get around public transportation in san francisco, in oakland, and also in l.a. i walked a lot where i live. here it is a very rural. i mean, it is not, its gorgeous but not to my mind the look of the most sustainable development patterns with large lots. so we have a beautul large lot with trees, but it is far away. i tried to compile my trips. i do telecommute. i spend a lot of my time in front of my computer at my desk which save my daily commute. but i would like to be more on foot and be close and eventually. do you know where the picture on the front of the book is taken? >> i believe, i need to check. i think that is the border crossing mexico. >> and who is your call author, daniel sporting? >> my co-author daniel spurted i

have known for 25 your turkey is uc davis and i spent so much time at berkeley. i know him very well. every five years ago met and decided we wanted to write a book like this. we did and like i said that very few times actually to vote is all virtually basically on the computer, back and forth, back and forth and he on the california resources board what he is able to be able to help regulate these policies in california, which we both argued, there's a chapter on california in the book is the head of the game in terms of pushing innovation. certainly california's ahead of the u.s. in terms of thinking ahead. the u.s. has been much slower as a nation compared to definitely all of the western european nations, much slower to innovate and a much slower than california. >> and a forwardy governor schwarzenegger. >> yes. what disease they? >> governor schwaenegger has