to talk with all visitors, and besides@@h rbrb@ i are deceived by promises and what something different, want to have a better future, want to be able to speak, walk to travel, want to listen, so the situation in cuba has changed a lot. i would say that its --

>> ms. leiva, i hate to -- i hate to interrupt you. i should have indicated each member, including unfortunately me is limited to five minutes. i took four minutes myself. i didn't leave you enough time and i apologize. but my time has expired -- ensure we will be coming back to you. ranking member is ros-lehtinen. -- before mr. chairman. if i can direct my question to mr. mccaffrey. earlier this year at a hearing on the subcommittee of national security and foreign affairs of the committee on oversight and government reform you testified, and i quote, mr. castro engaged me for a couple of hours, and i will continue, but i always find it intriguing that people are so proud of the number of hours castro spends. spent two hours, no, three

hours, for i was, five hours, i guess that gives you some kind of bizarre street badge of honor. using mr. castro engaged me a couple of hours and he wants his spice back from florida. i remember telling him i said mr. castro i'm sure you are very proud of these men come and they are cuban patriots and you will get them back eventually win a we have normalized relations, and of quote. i find that regrettable. , mr. mccaffrey that he would refer to the stevan spice convicted in our u.s. fair criminal justice system and whose cases were reheard again and whose convictions were once again reaffirmed as patriots and that you focus on returning these supplies to the cuban regime yet you do not mention cop killers like joanne and other fugitives of u.s. law and justice to have given refuge by

the cuban regime also in your testimony from april of this year you noted and i quote there is no question there are lots of drugs floating around cuba, and particularly washing up on shore. bundles of cocaine and marijuana but there was clear to me that they were not on a government basis but part of an international conspiracy to threaten the regime and threaten their sense of communist morality. communist morality given the brutal and repressive apparatus of the regime that will skew the totalitarian dictatorship, exerting absolute control over the island and its people you really think that fidel and raul and the regime elite are not aware of drug trade in and out of the island and do not facilitate or sponsor such

activities? and also in your testimony before the government reform subcommittee you said and i quote i bring some of them, meaning to the officials in our schooling system. i get into of them to go to leavenworth. the first five years that the intel people but eventually they get jealous and some of the commerce we get this lot. so dialogue, engagement on areas of mutual the interest, that will work. in light of the significant threat post to the nation and interest by cuban espionage and a new light of the recent massacre at fort hood we're all of these signals and all of these signs were completely overlooked how can you have no problem with opening the doors of leavenworth and our training programs to the cuban intelligence agents who are declared enemies of the united states? i find that shameful, sir.

>> my title is general after 32 years of military service. >> i apologize. >> -- wounded in action i'm offended by your deliberate marginalization of my viewpoint and let me know what to say -- >> i was quoting you, sir, are those not quotes? are the quotes, yes or no? >> i'm offended by your language. >> you are offended by your quotes? >> let me go on to respond -- >> what part of your quotes of and you? >> are you going to let me answer? >> i have five minutes i can do whatever i wish. so, go ahead. i want to know are you offended by your quotes? i was quoting you. >> if you're asking me if i think the cubans are a national security threat to the united states my answer is if you ask for the top 20 national security threats they wouldn't be among them. now, my actual viewpoint, however, is that u.s. national interest will be better served by lifting the travel ban, by

engaging in diplomatic contact with them and indeed -- >> my specific questions were asking you whether you do not feel that our security would be at any risk by your quotes saying that he would invite these officials to come into our facilities. >> this is silly -- >> that is your quote. door opened by your quote? >> it doesn't apply to the realities. what i support is people to people the engagement, diplomatic -- >> reading from your quote, sir. >> -- economic engagement -- >> the time of the gentleman has expired. >> just the facts. >> the gentleman from massachusetts, mr. delahunt is recognized. >> general mccaffrey, i want to go on the record and say that i consider you a great american patriot. [applause]

but let's talk about our national security. ..

tzipi its torstar marion retired in and the former self can't the mather. >> this was not the letter that was signed so lanelle i understand record, but i want to read excerpts from this letter because it goes to the issue of national security. the american national security. this is the letter that these men signed. these american patriots that have fought for this country. in u.s. policy towards cuba has not only failed in its principal objective of ending cuba's communist system but has harm our interest across the board. most important, it works against our national security interest. in our judgment the committee would advance the best interest of the united states by acting

favorably on h.r. 874 the freedom to travel. do you concur with the conclusion that these gentlemen submitted for the record? >> i do. i think it is a very sensible view point. >> okay. to mr. sows the, i had never heard the argument before to mr. cason's testimony relative to lifting the travel ban would be of no avail because we don't speak spanish, and he was going to talk to us? and hugh are we going to talk to? and you made an observation, or i think you noted that how many hispanics-- >> according to the u.s. census bureau and a 2004 report 34.5 million speak spanish as a first language.

>> as a first language. some of us who speak spanish, 34 million of us speaks spanish as a first language. i wonder how many of those 34 million are americans of cuban descent. >> i think the american, the cuban-born citizens in this country i think are 1.5 million. i may be wrong. >> there are 33 other americans out there that speak spanish as their first language? i would suggest that argument put forth by mr. cason really doesn't seem to hold water, but he did reference a case decided back in 1984, at the midst of the cold war where he said that the authority of the president if he has a policy issue is he

suggested it was unfettered and the untrammeled, but let me read from the language of that case. in the opinion of the state department cuba with the political economic and military backing of the soviet union has provided widespread support for armed violence and terrorism in the western hemisphere. cuba maintains close to 40,000 troops in various countries in africa and the middle east and support hostile foreign policy. therefore we think there's an adequate basis under the due process clause of the fifth amendment to sustain the president's decision to restrict travel. general mccaffrey, are we faced with the same conditions today? >> are there still 40,000 cuban troops all over the world? >> my take on the island right now is it is one of the poorest places on the face of the earth in my time in the military.

>> the time from the gentleman from arizona has expired. >> just before questions i want to this bill something that is then brought up a number of times here. a deskmen said that people want to go to cuba. i believe mr. cason mentioned the tourists go there for rum, sex and what leveler else, there are a list of pejorative send i have heard from others as well that seem to indicate the only reason people go to cuba is to lie on the beach and drink and i think it is deeply offensive to a lot of americans to go for a number of reasons. not just to sit on the beach and the notion that we don't have a travel ban, we only have a currency ben, that is just grasping at straws basically. tell that to the woman who i

believe was from indiana who went to cuba to distribute bibles with her church group. she was not aware of the restriction. she went through candidate because that was where they were going through and she went through to distribute bibles. she gut find when she got back. i would like for her to say there is no ban on the travel to cuba and this notion that everybody goes for these reasons is just offensive to so many americans to go there. every place in the world he will have bad actors but to lump everybody who goes to cuba and travels to cuba into one group who are simply seeking sex tourism or something is just deeply offensive. i have to say that from the outset. mr. cason you mentioned tourism and trade have not brought down a totalitarian regime anywhere in history. you know there's no evidence to suggest that increasing tourism to cuba will help promote

democracy. do you have any evidence to present that indicates that isolating a regime anywhere in the world like this has fostered democracy? >> i would like to mention what the lech walesa of talked about, the question of tourism in the freedom of the czechleslovakia is in poland and they said it had absolutely no relevance whatsoever. the point i am making is that tourists travel, we are not talking about the other 18 categories, the notion that allowing toorist to go to areas where basically the hotel rooms are, in areas you are aware of that i have visited, that those people are going there somehow to promote democracy to interact with the cuban people. in fact it can't happen. >> reclaiming my time, i ask for evidence and you quoted wellen said that it had no effect

there. are there instances where isolating the regime has had the opposite effect that you can point to? i would suggest that you can't. mr. sosa will make a compelling argument that engaging the cubans however, allowing travel and other means will foster@@@@r untry, just answer that question. ken lay pointman example of that? >> i don't think we have a travel ban on cuba. for a long period of time, for a long period of time large numbers of people that been able

to go, hundreds of thousands of cuban-americans can go. my point is they have not brought any political change of the sword people are arguing here should result from that. >> reclaiming my time. it has been mentioned as well that this legislation are what we are trying to do here is to increase-- encourage tourism or promote tourism or to encourage travel. mr. peters you studied the legislation. this is legislation contain a grant program for travel agents to promote travel to cuba or does this legislation simply say you are allowed. we will give you the freedom that we give you and every other area? >> it is the latter. the legislation you are referring ends the prohibition. it doesn't push anybody to go anywhere and no it doesn't have the u.s. government funds to promote tourism or give grants to anybody. >> nobody end of this legislation is compelled to do anything? it is simply granting them the

freedom should they wish to travel. >> that is correct. >> thank you. i yield back. >> the time of the gentleman has expired and the gentleman from new jersey, mr. sires is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. i will speak to the 34 million people that speak spanish. i was a spanish teacher for ten years. my brother obviously is cuban, my younger brother, they speak spanish. they will tell you yes. you talk to them. it is an embarrassment. and they are my brothers. i taught in school that was 93% hispanic. you will ask the students at the spoke spanish, they will tell you 90% will say yes i am not agreeing with any of you but this notion that 34 million people speak spanish, yes they say it is the first language because they go home and say, how are you.

beh this lindbeck my question comes to this. i am hard-pressed to think that if we lift the travel ban that is going to help the cuban people when the government controls every single aspect from who gets to rent a room, from who gets to go where, from the people that come into the island because i assume they are going to curtail if there is a whole max of people going to the ivan so for me to accept the fact that this is somehow helping in any way i only see them helping the government. so, anybody who wants to take a shot at that, i am sure that ewald do. >> a couple of things. first of all the 34.5 million comes from the u.s. census bureau and-- >> excuse me, reclaiming my

time. the census bureau says check bespeak spanish. u.s. my brother of the speaks spanish, he will say yes. >> i don't know your family but anybody-- >> i was the teacher for ten years. the hispanic district where 93% of the students were hispanic. >> anybody u.s. traveled around the united states in been to a major american city knows that there's a tremendous number of people who speak spanish. >> i don't disagree with that. you sound like everyone is such a fluent spanish speaker. >> there are a lot of us. so your other point was what it help the cuban people? >> how is it going to trickle down to the cuban people? >> first of all is not troopers in the travels from the united states to cuba is somehow followed a round with some minder. i have been to cuba several

times. i have wandered all over the island. i am sure there was somebody looking one way or the other it what i was doing but it did not stop me from talking to people. i have talked to wall boxes-- you cannot control hundreds of thousands of americans the right thing tomorrow in cuba. it is not possible. >> let me tell you this story. ivan friend from colombia to went to cuba because he figured sooner or later they are going to do something. he went to cuba and when he got to cuba he was called into question, what was he doing there and he was not even cuban so for you to say you do not follow. every single thing that i get, every conversation that i get, people are followed, people are trapped. i still have antz, i still the cousins' in cuba. when we get a chance to see the family, this is the information that i get.

i am just hard-pressed. the people who want to benefit, i may think twice about my position. i just don't think it's going to trickle down for the cuban people and that is my argument against this. >> it has not trickled down. >> i would encourage you to go on the internet and look at the private homes that people rent. these are little businesses. >> mr. peterson, who gives them the permission to rent the homes? >> they are licensed by the government. >> the government gives them the permission? >> they have to get a license to do it. they pay taxes. i'm not in favor of licenses and i'm not in favor of taxes either but it is not unique think you but the people pay taxes. this people make good money. the employee people. >> do you think any of the dissidents will get a license to run to somebody?

do you think idid that will ever get a license to rent their rooms? >> i'm not in favor of a restriction of that nature but you are asking that the trickle down to people? it absolutely does all over the island and they are our artists that sell to foreigners. there is an evangelical christian who employs five people. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> because he makes a much money doing it. >> the time of the gentleman has expired. the gentleman from florida mr. mack is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman and mr. chairman in listening to the discussion today from both sides and i think i have found the silver lining in today's hearing. and that is that this committee should move swiftly to apply the same restrictions that we have funky but to iran, sudan and syria all of which are on the state sponsor of terrorism list and at some point we would be willing to offer a resolution on

this. >> would the gentleman yield? you know you would be trying to repeal by provision so why take it personally. [laughter] >> duly noted. >> mr. sosa if i may, in listening to your testimony, i find it somewhat shameful that you would interject in today's debate racial and ethnic politics by arguing that only if one is from a particular race or ethnicity can one relate to the cuban people or discuss democracy, freedom and human rights. my question is what about the thousands of tourists from spain and mexico? have the spanish-speaking tourists failed? on another question my good friend the ranking member ileana ros-lehtinen a she a better

ambassador freedom than i am? again i just come as something about your testimony i question why do you would bring up race and ethnicity in this. >> okay. first of all spain was a former colonial master of ubot so that has some historical effects on the people of cuba. there is no question that the people of cuba more closely resembled the people of the united states, the population in general than they do the people of canada. that is just the fact of life. i am not interjecting anything. that does mean in my opinion that there is a much closer ties between the people of cuba and the people of canada and certainly luxembourg or france or germany or any of these other countries.

>> alright, again listening to your testimony the other thing i heard which i thought was outrageous was somehow it was the american people's fault for the pyrtle regime of the castro brothers, that somehow it was the restrictions we have one cuba somehow it is our fault that the castro brothers continue to be a brutal regime and maybe you and i can talk and sit down and talk some other time, okay we don't have to talk. >> i never said that. >> what i heard you say it's simply drop the restrictions that then no longer could the castro brothers he is u.s. policy. as somehow u.s. policy is to blame here and we hear this a lot. that is just not the case and i think you are misguided. my question to the ambassador, going back to this idea of people traveling to cuba and

with this money trickled down to cubans? i would like, i have also listen to your testimony and read your testimony. if you would talk a little bit about that because in my opinion it is not going to help one that. >> i think very little trickles down. sure they can have 12 people seated by regime, people behind the scenes ensure there is some private rooms but the vast majority of tourists, of this 15 million tourists don't go there, they go out in areas where there are no cubans, there is no tipping. there is no chance to buy art work and that sort of stuff. sure, some trickles down but the idea that somehow this is going to bring prosperity to the average cuban is just bunk and there is no evidence again that tourism by all these people from other parts of the world who do

speak spanish and to engage if they find a cuban to engage with has made any impact on the system so that is what i have been arguing. >> so all of this money would stay in the hands of the castro brothers? >> they own the farce, the cigar shops and the rum. there are some people that are a smaller group every month that tried to do something independent but their rounded up and put in jail for five years for dangerousness. does something trickle down? something does but it is not going to bring democracy to cuba or help the average cuban. >> the gentlelady from california, ms. woolsey is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. sitting here, it sounds like those who oppose travel to cuba are singing an old song. i feel like i am listening to an old record. something that we have all heard

before and it is fairly comfortable because we can sing along, except it does not fit the 21st century, and that is my opinion that it does not fit. could you tell me general or mr. antunez or mr. peters, do you know what kind of-- is there a difference of opinion between first generation cuban-americans, first-generation cubans and second generation? is it changing? are weed missing the boat here by not paying attention to other opinions? >> congresswoman i think the polling data that various polling firms have done over the years is very clear in the cuban-american community. there was a recent poll that showed 59% of cuban-american support any travel restrictions on all americans so we can all

travel there freely and when you start to look inside those polled c c that the change is driven, the change towards favoring policies of engagement is driven by greater support for that position among younger cuban-americans in cuban-americans to have the right to more recently. >> respond? >> i would not want to say i'm an expert on the cuban american community. my guess is that our current policy toward cuba is not supported by the u.s. population it is caused this to become isolating in our international community. it is painful to the cuban people and the cuban, the new younger generation does not support it either so i think, i think those who espouse continuing the ban on travel our and isolated group store rooted in the past.

castro is locked in 59. the u.s. government is locked in 61. we need to moveeã ms. leiva? what is it? anyway, leiva thank you. let's talk about agriculture, let's talk about farmers. let's talk about what kind of food products the cubans would purchase if we would open up our trade relations, the u.s.-cuba trade relations. >> you can imagine that the cuban government imports of around 80% of their food we

consume in cuba and mostly from the united states. right now this year, the congress adopted by 36% altogether. why? because they don't have enough money to buy. that means that more money in cuba of would mean that they would be able to buy more food and more goods that they don't have here. this is a society that is not producing. it is incredible how people are lacking everything they need each day. it is a difficult situation but, if we, if people could rent and people could work and sell privately, and if many tourists would come, many people from everywhere the government would not be able to have all the capacities in hotels or restaurants and everywhere and this would move people's economy

and they would know that this isn't because the cuban government is so wonderful that it has given the possibilities-- but that is because americans have changed the policy because americans are coming. visitors do not intend to bring down the government in anyplace but by getting close to people and by talking, they can no their experiences and besides people open their minds. people feel freer and of course that there is an improvement economically, that would change a lot for the common people in cuba. i think we are talking or some people are talking, with fahmy risbeck, about a society that isn't the one we live in. i know that they do it for the best, that respect for human rights and there would be no

political prisoners or dissidents that would govern our country, our democracy. >> thank you so much for your patience. >> ms. leiva unfortunately the five minutes has expired so we have to cut this off and go on to the gentleman from california , mr. royce is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman. i have a question for ambassador cason endic the to the testimony that you gave. you mentioned the training the cuban hotel employees receive. can you expand on that? >> yes, the people they get to work in the hotels are a minority elite. they have to pass an allegiance test. these jobs are very important jobs people have in a society where few people have a chance to have a steady job. the people that are at those hotels in the people that take

tourists are trained to answer the questions that tourists will ask them. they are trained to give the regime answers. they are not going to risk their livelihood by answering questions honestly, and so tourists are taken to villages and again, very few of those tourists that are currently going over the last 15 years to cuba are staying in the urban areas in these little family run places. they are staying in hotels where ordinary cubans are not allowed to come in, couldn't command and the whole environment is controlled. the people they deal with are trained people, many of them members of the communist party. >> the reason this is interesting to me is because yesterday morning with their human rights commission meeting here we took testimony from a defector from north korea to explain how the system works in north korea and exactly how kim

jong dill extracts the wealth from you know, this kind of activity. it is difficult to find one for one example of foreign policy but the idea of opening up cuba for u.s. tourism really reminds me of those that have advocated for north korea. koom gang mountain resort and the hypothesis of course is that ideas like capitalism i guess will be slow the introduced in north koreans and wages garnished by workers there at the resort will trickle down but here is in fact what happened. in fact what happens is that communist party members who were the sons and daughters of the elite are sent to work there. they are adamantly in support of the regime and they don't talk to people who go and about any

of these ideas anyway so they are kept at arm's length. so, the reality is that you don't reach the population. what you do is you paid money to bolster the intelligence apparatus or in the state or in the case of north korea of. and i think there is an awful lot of wishful thinking. i think they kim jong-il like castro would never do anything to threaten his grip on power, but he doesn't mind running that hotel out there because the workers are so highly screen, they are party members and they don't get paid. the wages go to the state and then the state leads the communist party workers of the vast majority of the money made at this resort is pocketed by the regime for exactly the types purposes that you up called attention to. you also mentioned the regime

believes it can control tourism. explain that to us. >> the regime has controlled tourism. they are not about to let their survival be at stake by letting the place be flooded by americans. most said the time they are booked solid so there's no room for millions of extra americans to come there. you would have to kick somebody else out of the hotels are raised the prices are something. >> bottom line for the regime, the castro regime has proven very adept at warding off reform for a long time for good you think that a regime would make any reforms that with some of fritz grip on power or duke think it intends for more hard currency so it can continue to expand its intelligence apparatus? >> that regime is not going to do and anything that would undermine their political control especially the a the world to know they don't have the support of the young people. bajis temple believe in the system so that regime is not about to let the large number of

american tourists wander among the cubans in order to undermine the system. is just not going to happen. the regime's future is at stake. >> in the years of european travel to the island put a dent in the regime's control in your opinion? >> absolutely not. there's not a sign of political reform that has come from any of those 50 million. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> the gentlelady from california ms. lee. >> let me welcome our guests and witnesses and i especially want to create liz antwon-- antunez. let me say to my colleague mr. mack, i want to just mention one point to you as it relates to raise. race is a factor in so many issues both here and in cuba. actually ms. antunez pointed to the facts and let me read you this. i know they regime is content for cuban people and how they show no mercy to those of us who are black so she also raised the issue of race which is a good

thing to do. now i want to just say you ms. antunez that i share many of your concerns about the lives of cubans and i understand this because as an african-american myself, i remember the days of the united states government jim crow laws, where african-americans could not vote. my father was a lieutenant colonel in the united states army and i remember very vividly being turned away at restaurants and movie theaters. he had his u.s. army uniform on and we were told we were not allowed because we were black. i also remember when i started school, i could not go to public schools because i was black. i also remember, and this is in my lifetime, when black people

were lynched when they were hung. at remember these things very well. this was not long ago. and we are still here in my own country dealing with discrimination and inequalities, oftentimes with a raise as part of the reason for these inequalities so i had experienced a lot and i understand what you are trying to say. but gatt i can remember-- don't remember many countries refusing their citizens the right to travel to the united states or to engage in an embargo against my country because of these gross human rights violations that i have experienced in many of my colleagues in the african-american community. i believe that african-americans can demonstrate to cubans how african-americans have

challenged our government for freedom and for equality for could be embargo and the travel ban has kept us, has put this barrier up, has kept us from helping you and for sharing with you power struggles and what we have had to do to fight just for the right to be part of this country, so why wouldn't ending the travel ban be in the best interests of afro-cuban? [speaking spanish] [speaking in spanish]

>> translator: i am very happy that this topic has come up and you have addressed it, because my own people in my own family are living through some of the same kinds of things that you've decided. [speaking in spanish] >> translator: and i am thinking specifically of my brother, who because he is black and opposes the regime in our country they have even six dogs on him and it is not something that i am saying. he bears the scars on his body. [speaking in spanish]

>> translator: and i am also thinking of my sister-in-law who was beaten by the political police on the streets of cuba and addressed as black and with other epitaphs in an obscene manner merely because she was defending the rights of one of her fellow citizens. [speaking in spanish] >> i ask unanimous consent for an additional minute because of the time taken. >> mr. chairman of fica just say that your wonderful translator but i believe the first part of resentence would say i don't have to rely on memories and on recollections. it is something that i live with every day. >> may i reclaim my time mr. chairman? >> it is your time. >> this is something we continue to live with every day also congresswoman ileana

ros-lehtinen so just understand, the point is i don't remember and i don't see many countries not allowing their citizens the right to travel to america because we still have so many violations of human rights here in our own country. [applause] >> i am not part of the first crab. i just want to clarify more accurately what she had said. [speaking spanish] [speaking in spanish]

h@ the time of the gentlelady notes dfx of repression that would come about as a consequence of this policy. >> the gentlelady has expired. the gentleman from new jersey. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. let me just point out, congresswoman lee among others were allowed to meet with the kester brothers and some of for delegation were effusive in their praise for those two individuals. i know that berta antunez tried

to give you a better and i'm not sure ms. lee whether not you try to visit him. he was on a hunger strike at the time, a hunger strike on behalf of human rights into the best of my knowledge and did not visit with him when you were there. >> one to yield? >> i will yield at the end. i lung with frank wealth had tried to get to cuba to visit with political prisoners and to visit with people like the great antunez. we have been turned down every time because frank wolf and i want to raise prisoners of conscience, we have been in gulags in china, gulags and indonesia, gulags and the soviet union including the infamous 35 which is where natan shcharansky has spent his time. in the late 1980's he got to the human rights commission, a weak organization, to focus and bring scrutiny to the prisoners in the gulags. they sent a fact-finding team. since then the international

committee for the red cross has been denied. there was a travel ban on the icrc going to cuba and going to the presence. there is a travel ban on the human rights-- from the united nations and that mandate has ended but there was a travel ban on his investigations. i would ask the general mccaffrey have you ever ask kester to permit the icrc to visit cuban political prisoners? what specific individuals have you raised with fidel castro and others in the government? have you left him to lead you to visit those prisoners of conscience yourself? i don't have access. those of us to raise the issue can't even get in the door and you certainly could do an enormous amount of good on that. yesterday the superintendent of the new jersey state police said every law enforcement officer in new jersey wants cop killer joanne chas tomorrow return to prison in new jersey.

she brutally gunned down an officer in east brunswick on the new jersey turnpike and then later way to cuba where she lives in the lap of luxury. i would also ask you finally before my time runs out i mentioned earlier in 2001 i got legislation passed in the house the died in the senate as so many things i hear related to human rights over there that calls for to conditions, a modest minimalist conditions for lifting the travel ban. one release the political prisoners because they are being tortured as we meet here today and secondly, allow us to get back to the almost 80 individuals who have committed felons and now they are living in cuba in a safe harbor. general if you could, colonel fuentes is the new date officer who made a strong and compelling case yesterday as he and law enforcement people do.

have you raised that case? >> let me say you want to be proud of their work in this area and i certainly endorse entirely your viewpoint. i think the notion that there is a totalitarian government in cuba of greif repression, lack of freedom of unionization, freedom of speech is on the arguable and i personally have raised with both fidel and not for two hours, i actually had seven hours with him that this was a major point of u.s. foreign policy to try to reduce the perceptions throughout the global community that they are a repressive totalitarian regime and i've also raise the same point with the cuban ambassadorial that that is the easiest thing they could do is drop their repressive imprisonment of these dissidents. i share your viewpoint. >> general would you help me in frank will give into cuba? >> if there is an immodest

contribution i in may, have great admiration for frank wolf. >> we would like to know as early as december, again make the attempt to go to the prison? >> i would think that would have great leverage but anything i can do would be of your service. >> would you? >> i don't think i have any leverage either but i am happy to work with you. your staff contacted me months ago and i told them i am happy to work with them and i am happy to work with you. i am from new jersey too as you know. understand what you are saying about joanne and of course she should be returned. >> have you raised it with government officials? >> no i have not raised that with government officials. >> why not? >> i will tell you what i have done. i raised the issue of human rights with them in the past and every single time i have gone with the congressional delegation nine practice say the group have raised the issue including specific names. >> the time of the gentleman has

expired and the gentleman from american samoa, mr. tallil maffei got is recognized for five minutes and that will be the last person i will recognize and let me just interject here, if anyone else is prepared to come back right after these two boats we will continue the hearing a samming our witnesses don't pass out. one wants to come back, two-- can do witnesses stay? >> i have got it plain the lead set 3:00. >> and bester cannot stay. mr. sosa can stay. the general can stay. mr. peters can stay. ms. antunez can you stay? ms. leiva can you spend another 45 minutes of we can finish the hearing?

okay, the gentleman from american samoa is recognized for five minutes. >> i think of the witnesses for the most eloquent statement. i think at the height of the cold war when we talk about the cuban missile crisis, the bay of pigs, this is become a very not only an emotional issue for our country but at that time national security seems to be the number one issue in the minds of our leaders at the time of the cuban missile crisis and i would like to ask the general mccaffrey, you mentioned cuba is no longer really a threat to our national security given your wealth of experience not only has a military flight officer but certainly someone who was worked on national-security issues. can you elaborate on that a little bit more? >> i really missed it. national security issues,

certainly we have lost a cuban government and in internally repressive regime and in the past of have a history of confronting u.s. foreign policy issues. he still, castro has lied to chavez right now and it is causing many problems in venezuela. having said that our national security concerns oriented the rounded dozen different threats. some of them are hugely important to us and they don't include cuba. my own view is that the reason we have to worry about cuba, i fear the wen castro passes way and i'm confident he will we see the unraveling of this repression of reseen. we are going to end up with millions of cubans seeking freedom, fleeing the island so i've looked at the national guard the y will be talking to tomorrow night and others as having a huge challenge in the coming years, how do we deal with the humanitarian disaster

if we are not engaged with the cubans now? i want to know who the 45 durell czar that are going to run the government. i want to see is engage militarily, diplomatically to try to bring these people lot of their isolation. >> i know that my travel to cuba i had to go to cancun to get some kind of a special be set in order to get to havana. i want to ask mr. peters a question and they quote an interesting statement he made, investors from all over the world operate joint ventures in cuba. spanish companies want to drill oil in the waters. venezuela pays over a billion dollars a year for the service of cuban doctors and other workers. iran extended cuba $445 million in credits in november of this year. brazil extended a 1 billion-dollar line of credit last year. funds are being used for road developments and other projects.

china has extended a 600 million-dollar line of credit to cuba in september of this year including a 260 million-dollar for grain purchases. a very interesting comment in terms of the economic situation, the economic sanctions. in your opinion to think the basis of our involvement with cuba first as it was in the early part of the last 50 years was national security? now, and you were looking at the economic conditions for good to you really think that this really has its bases on how things may change in the future if castro should depart from this earth in the coming period? >> congressman the point i was making in that passage was that we often think because we have sanctions against cuba that the cuban economy is on the brink or we are squeezing them some help. that is not the case.

the economic situation there is not good but is all those facts indicated and as others do they are not isolated. they are engaged with the rest of the world than whether we like it or not that economy is not teetering. more importantly the purpose of our sanctions, are sanctions have never had the effect and the economic troubles they have experience than they have been very severe and they see more severe than they were last year, have never put the power of the government's on the line, and so there is no politically decisive impact in our sanctions. it does not make the difference between the communist government surviving with a communist government not surviving. >> unfortunately my time is short. there is just not enough to ask more questions. thank you mr. chairman. >> the time has expired. we have to those which means this will be much quicker than the last round. we will faux denbigh back in

about 15 minutes maximum i think and if you can stay great, ndfu. we hope as many of you can well and hopefully the members who want u.s. questions to be back right away because of know when this year we will just adjourn it, so with that, the committee is recessed. [inaudible conversat

change their vote? if not, on this vote, the yeas are 60, the nays are 39. three-fifths of the senators duly chosen and sworn having voted in the affirmative, the moti needs deliberation. is co medicaid. 46% ofe to fix the problems in bitterly, bitterly opposed in this united states senate by know, one of the things that i'd say to my