to stay or go? does the internet and those connections make a difference? >> i think it does for several reasons. part of what we are probably talking about is a period effect. deegan people we spoke with were sort of as you correctly identified, vapor in that period as technology is expanding but before it became something that every household has to have. i face booked somebody on the book. they facebook each other. i stay away from facebook. it is different for several reasons. these young people coming of age now should be more prepared.

there is work to be done. it is not that they completely lack the skills that are needed. some of those on facebook did so they found themselves in a workplace that needed that stuff. i didn't do any of that. so that is part of the answer. the other part of the answer is infrastructure also allows you to do two things. it makes you more attractive. it makes things better for people who live in small towns but it also makes it possible that again, you can compete for those types of industries. i will give you a couple examples that are iowa examples. the google plant that is open near west des moines or has opened at this stage where they -- it is called cloud computer whatever that is. is lots of computers together in

a cloud. but it is -- these are good jobs, high tech jobs, but the thing about the google plant, i wonder how many are going to get those jobs. because if you have a workforce -- is there a mismatch between those jobs and the work force that is there? that is the larger point. there needs to be better preparation for people to be so i think the internet and digital technology more generally offers opportunities to build and grow opportunities that wouldn't have been there 15 or 20 years ago but the danger is that the new focus on what they call elephant hunting so you are dependent on landing a big plant.

>> these are young people who have chosen to stay, right, after college. crazy people. and one of their pet peeves, their first report came out in 2007, a group formed by the

great legislator to basically, you know, i attract more people back or keep them after graduation. in their first report they said the digital infrastructure in iowa is in shambles. there are just so me technology bald spots, there are places you can get phone reception or dial-up, dial-up epic it is not broadband, but dial-up is an aspiration and not a reality. and again, that's something that is relatively easy to do. as a technology develops, it's much easier to build that kind of infrastructure. you're right, having those things in place, not only attract people back but crazy thing, what kind of jobs that allow them to telecommute. why not? i want to get people from build

the goodies just to get people back. build the goodies for everyone who is there. we should all benefit from those things. rise in the tiger everybody is a good thing. the other thing, you know, a place like us, here for example, we are standing in a beautiful new library. you do have your wonderful aquatic center which i have been in on occasion. there are tremendous amenities any small towns like is that it shows what is possible when you have people who are cynically minded and engaged, and so i believe that small towns should develop their infrastructure for everybody. it's a boon when people are attracted back by it, but it should be developed, it's a no-brainer, it should happen more easier than it does.

>> historian kira gale discusses what she calls the mysterious death of explore merriweather lewis. she makes the case he was murdered even though many believe it was suicide. the 2009 festival of books is the host of this event. it is about an hour. >> afternoon and welcome to the southern festival of books. i will be your moderator for this session. out opera kira gale, author of "the death of merriweather lewis: a historic crime scene investigation," has entered the debate among historians as to how merriweather lewis of the lewis and clark expedition died

october 11, 1809 and a small and near present day hole in wall tennessee. did he take his own life as the federal agents report at the time or the more likely died at the hands of an assassin? as an official tennessee commission determined in 1850. there were no admitted eyewitnesses to lewises receiving his fatal injuries, and inconsistent accounts of only field speculation that in 1996, kira is co-author, professor of path college at george washington university school of law took the unusual step of encouraging a local district attorney to convene a corners inquest some 187 years after the fact. the transcript of the inquest is included in its entirety in kira's book. doctor stardust has worked with a louisville to petition a national park service to allow them to exhume loses body for forensic examination. kira is also the author of the

lewis and clark road trips, exploring the trail across america. she worked on projects with the nebraska humanities council, organized the first nebraska literature festival and served on the board for the nebraska center for the books. her studies in early nebraska history and in lewis and clark lead her to a search of documents related to the upper louisiana territory where lewis served as governor where he died. from discoveries and she made, she presented case for a new theory as to the cause of loosest death. she also maintains a website, death of merriweather lewis.com and a blog as the facts related to mistry. please join me in welcoming kira gale. [applause] >> thank you very much. very pleased to see such a large attendance. tony reminded me that just at this time 200 years ago today, lewis was writing up.

it was the last day of his life and that was at dusk. because this is such a serious topic, i felt that i did need to prepare this as a written statement, but i will try my best to read it well and then we can go into questions. it is a 30 minute talk. i would like to thank the southern book festival and tennessee humanities council for inviting me, and tony, for his introduction. tomorrow will mark the 200th anniversary of loosest death. is one of the most significant and enduring mysteries of american history, was he murdered or did he commit suicide as is commonly believed? 200 years ago today, this was his last day on earth. he was only 35 years old. he was traveling on the tendency

on his way to washington, d.c., and had arrived as i understand a roadside in an tavern located 78 miles from nashville where we are today. sometime during the night, he died of gunshot wounds. was it suicide or was it murder? after returning from the lewis and clark expedition, lewis was appointed by president jefferson to become governor of louisiana territory. he had moved to saint louis, the capital of the territory, and was going to washington to seek reimbursement for bills he had paid personally. bills for printing the territorial laws of louisiana, and other government expenses. totaling almost $2500, they were more than his years of salary. he was accompanied by seeman, his dog. who traveled with him to the pacific coast and back, and by his servant, john. john was not a slave.

he was a freeman of african and french descent. he had been a white house servant while lewis was serving as jefferson's private secretary before the expedition. john was present on the night of loosest death. he brought the news of his death to lewises mother, lucy marx in charlottesville and to president jefferson and madison. within six months, john would also be dead. supposedly of suicide. he died of an opium overdose. while waiting to receive his back pay of $240 from the lewis estate. we know that seamen died, as i understand, because of contemporary accounts said he died of grief at his master's great. that's all we know, and that's what our book was written. the book presents the evidence

for why merriweather lewis is remains should be exhumed and order to determine the cause of his death. it also presents historical evidence, some 20 documents pertaining to his death, that have never been seen before. they have never been gathered together. the last part of the book is my own theory as to who murdered him and why. my co-author is a distinguished delegate had me of forensic science, is a professor of forensic law and science at george washington university, and has conducted many investigations of mysterious deaths and historical mysteries, including exhumed the remains of jesse james. whenever he decides to do an exclamation, he first gets the written consent of family members. lewis family members wholeheartedly support an exhibition. starting with merriweather lewis

his mother, they have always questioned whether his death was a suicide. over 200 collateral descendents have citations asking for exhumation. they have set up a public relation -- they have set up a website and hired a public relations firm. their website is called solve the mystery.org. they are neutral on the subject as to whether was murdered or suicide, and simply want to solve the mystery, as they say. professor stars is also neutral. i however believe he was murdered. and i make the case for murder in the third section of the book. after the exhumation takes place, the family wants to have a christian we burial with military honors at the merriweather lewis national monument and great site. the monument and gravesite it located on the trace parkway on

the side of, as i said, where he met his death. in the early 1990s, professor stars realize an official corners inquest had never been held. he contacted lewis county officials, the county where the monument is located, and suggested holding one. this modern inquest was held in june 19, 1996 and received national and international media attention. however, according to the local tradition, there had been an earlier inquest in 1810. but no records have been located. tradition has it that the local were afraid to charge the innkeeper, robert crider, and one of his relatives with the murder. long lost records may yet turn up. tony who introduced me has written a play about the 1810 inquest which is being performed

this weekend and hole in wall and which i had the pleasure of seeing a couple of nights ago. the transcript of the 1996 coroner's inquest contains the testimony of 13 expert witnesses. and it takes up the first half of our book. it is the reason for the subtitle, and historic crime scene investigation. csi, is merriweather lewis. [laughter] >> the forensic scientists are very well known in their field, and that's the real. those are very big names in their discipline. that have testified that thousands of court trials and corners inquest. all the witnesses followed untrained volunteer their time and were only paid for travel expenses. professional stars started the testimony to the corners jury. three historians testified. one for suicide, one for murder and another examined the state of lewis' finances.

a geologist discussed the geology of the gravesite your an expert on the psychology of suicide, a former homicide detective who investigated over 2000 deaths, said that in using a psychological profile, he would investigate loosest death as a homicide. to document examiners declared that a crucial piece of evidence for the suicide theory, so-called statement was a forgery. two medical doctors testified about analyzing the path of gunshot wounds. a firearms expert gave a demonstration. firing off his .69 caliber black powder pistol, the type of weapon that lewis was carrying. one expert testified he believed lewis was suffering from advanced syphilis, and had shot himself in a fit of mental

derangement. a current biographer thinks that lewis shot himself because he was in the middle of malarial fevers. and finally, doctor william best testified. he is called the father of forensic anthropology. he founded the world-famous university of tennessee forensic anthropology lab known as the body farm. maybe it's not a coincidence that the state of tennessee has pioneered in forensic anthropology, considering the role that mysterious death of merriweather lewis has played in the state's history. at the conclusion of the testimony, the seven members of the jury delivered their verdict. they asked the national park service to exhumed the remains of merriweather lewis to determine the cause of his death. the parks service, which has jurisdiction over the monument and gravesite, refused to grant

permission and block subsequent appeals. that's what matters to it until recently when the family mobilized to try once again to have an exhumation, followed by christian reburial with military honors at the gravesite. this year the family was allowed to submit a navigation. to the park service. and currently, technical reports are being submitted. when they are in, then there will be a hearing. over whether there's should be and exhumation. if the parks service grants permission, then doctor hugh berryman, a forensic anthropologist at middle tennessee state university, will be in charge of the exhumation. professor stars has dna samples from the family, and he will write the final report. at the 200th anniversary of the gravesite ceremony that was held earlier this week, the

national park service announced that a $3 million visitor center will be built at the gravesite. which up to now has been a very lonely place. if and exhumation takes place, what is likely to be discovered? well, there was a previous exhumation. it took place in 1848 when the state of tennessee honored lewises memory by erecting a monument over the gravesite. in the course of building the monument, his remains were exhumed. lewis' volkswagen fired by the president of square iron nails that had been forged by a local blacksmith to build the coffin. now we can use dna. to establish that these are his bones. there were three members on the monument committee. one was a medical doctor.

in 1850, the committee submitted their final report to the state legislature. they added a highly provocative statement. making certain that this information became part of the permanent legislative record. they said, the impression has long prevailed that under the influence of disease of the body and mind, of hopes, but long and valuable services, not merely deferred, but wholly disappointed, governor luis parish by his own hands. it seems to be more probable that he died by the hands of an assassin. what could the monument committee have seen? was it a bullet in the back of his head? a bullet hole? that's what the local people reported seeing. at the exhumation when they identified the iron nails. we should attempt to find out the truth by conducting a modern scientific exhumation.

in 1924, when the state of tennessee applied for a national monument status, they called his death a murder. the letter stated, and investigations have satisfied the public that he was murdered, presumably for the purpose of robbery. the accounts of his death by suicide, on the other hand, are all secondhand. there are no eyewitness reports. there are three stories told by the innkeeper's wife, mrs. greiner, after lewis' death. all of which contradict each other. in the first two accounts, she says that she heard two gunshots on that night. and the third account, told years later, she says she heard three gunshots. the first account was told to indian agent james neely, who was escorting lewis to nashville. aged neely was traveling with lewis, but he wrote to president

jefferson that he wasn't with him on the night of his death. he said to course is strayed away from their camp the night before, and he stayed behind looking for them. he had sent lewis on ahead with lewis' service and his own servant. agent neely arrived at grinders stand sometime shortly after lewis' death and arranged for his burial. need the letter is the primary evidence for the suicide theory. oddly enough, president jefferson never wrote about lewis' death, except for the introduction he wrote to the lewis and clark journals when they were published in 1814. one of the writing is president of all times, he was strangely silent about the death of his friend and protége. as was lewis' best friend, william clark. there was no attempt at anyone to investigate lewis' death or

to arrange for his reburial at the family's graveyard in charlottesville behind the lewis family home. james nitties plays a mysterious role in these events. he took lewises two pistols, his rival, his gold watch, and his horse. most likely, he also took his money, because $100 in cash was missing. lewis' stepbrother, john mark, journeyed to neely's home in 1811 and managed to retrieve lewis' horse and rival. but neely was away from home and had the pistols and watch with him. the second mrs. greiner account was written by ornithologist alexander wilson, who visited grinders stand after lewis' death. the account has been misstated as having been written in 1811, but in fact it was written in

may of 1810, just six months after lewis' death. wilson who lived in philadelphia was traveling south in search of new birds and seeking subscribers for the first volume of his famous american ornithology. he was one of lewis' best friends. lewis had given him the bird specimens they had collected on the lewis and clark expedition to be illustrated for publication. while visiting grinders stand, wilson page robert writer to put up a fence to protect lewises grave from the hogs and wolves. and got his written promise that he would do so. wilson wrote i left this place in a very melancholy mood, which was not much delayed by the prospect of a gloomy and savage wilderness which i was just entering into a loan. mrs. greiner told alexander

wilson a new version of her story. into this account she said she saw lewis crawling around the yard after being shot. and all three accounts, mrs. grinder said she spent the night in a kitchen cabinet near the cabin where the family lived. the cabin lived in one of two log cabins that were joined by a common roof, a style of frontier architecture called the dog trot cabin. travelers would stay on the other side of the family cabin. the kitchen cabin was several yards away from the double cabin, and mrs. grinder stay there that night with three young children, her children, and perhaps a young hired girl. the two servants who were accompanying lewis were staying in the horse barn about 200 yards away. wilson writes that mrs. grinder told him she heard two pistol

shots from lewis' cabin and in a few minutes, she heard him at her door called out, oman, give me some water, and heal my wounds. the logs being open and unbiased, she saw him stagger back and pull against a stump that stands between the kitchen and the room. he crawled some distance and raised himself up by the side of the tree where he sat for about a minute. is a very dramatic account, which is often been cited by historians, however it's been proven to be false. professor john giese, who has written another book on the death of merriweather lewis, researched the phases of the moon for that night. he found out that on the night of october 10, 11, 1809, it was the night after a new moon. you could not see anything on the naches trace that it was pitch black.

mrs. grinder could not have seen what she described. there are other unbelievable aspects to her story. mrs. grinder said that she had to go to the barn to wake up the two sleeping servants, who slept through the gunfire from two pistols. [laughter] >> at a distance of 200 yards. and what about semen? there is no mention of the dog to anyone who knows the story on the expedition does he would have been barking like crazy. whatever was happening that night. the third account is the most interesting and perhaps the closest to the truth. it was published in a newspaper in 1845. the writer had interviewed mrs. grinder in 1838 when she was 57 years old. robert grinder had since died, and perhaps then she felt free

to tell another version. in this account she makes three new and very different statements. the first one is, right about now, 200 years ago, about dark, two or three other men rode up and called for lodging. mr. lewis immediately drew a brace of pistols, stepped towards them and challenge them to fight a duel. day, not likely in this salutation, rolled onto the next house 5 miles. the second statement is that she heard three gunshots instead of two gunshots. supposedly, lewis committed suicide by using each one of his two pistols. if instead it was actually three pistol shots, then it must have been an assassination. she also said that after his death, lewis was found to be wearing old and tattered clothing when his body was

discovered. his servant, john, on the morning of lewis' death, was wearing lewis' death and carrying his gold watch. it seems likely that lewis and john were planning for lewis to try to escape his pursuers by having john act as a decoy. there is yet one other separate account called the russell statement made in 1811. in this account, lewis not only shoot himself twice, once in the head and once in the chest, but he is down cutting himself from head to foot with razors before he died. historians have generally mixed up these accounts together, picking and choosing as they like, because of the documents have never been published before in their entirety, it was not possible to compare them. but now they are in this book, and you can read them for yourself.

the suicide stories on the face of it don't make any sense. how can a career army officer, an expert marksman, not managed to kill himself with a first shot? the bullets were about the size of $0.^025 coins. 69 calbert. what if instead he was shot in the back of the head while trying to escape his assassins? the exhumation will provide the answer. other evidence in the document section points to a wider conspiracy and cover-up. and assembling the historical documents for publication, i began to see a pattern of lies and misinformation. if i hadn't put these documents together, it would have become apparent. the most crucial evidence is between the two authentic letters which were written by

captain delbert russell to president jefferson in january 1810. captain russell was the commander of fort pickering were lewis spent some of the last days of his life. however, there is another statement called the russell statement that supposedly was written by him in 1811, and has been used to support the suicide theory. at the two letters that he did right in january were certified by the documents experts at the corners in quest to be authentically written in his handwriting. the russell statement was certified to have been neither written nor signed by either captain russell or by his witness, major jonathan williams. the most damaging misinformation in the so-called russell statement is that lewis attempted to commit suicide twice while he was on his way to fort big rig.

it was said that in one of these attempts, he almost succeeded, and it was prevented from doing so by the boat crew. this is just simply a lie. it is a key component of the conspiracy cover-up story. the reason we know it is a lie is because of the two authentic letters of captain russell, which are reported to jefferson about everything he knows about lewis' last days. captain russell never makes any mention of prior suicide attempts. only in the so-called statement, supposedly written by him. identifies a man identified as a forger. the authentic letters are detailed report of lewis' two-week stay at the fort, his finances and his possessions left at the fort, and what russell was told happened to lewis after he left the fort with neatly. captain russell says that if he

had been allowed to send his own man with lewis instead of neely, lewis would still be alive because neither encouraged lewis' drinking. i question whether that is a true story. about the drinking. i don't question that he would still be alive if he hadn't gone with neatly. [laughter] >> russel wright to jefferson that this neely says he left the governor of money which cannot be sought because he had not himself and the governor had more than $100 in notes, besides the check which i let him out of $98.58. $99.58. none of which it is said could be found. captain russell told the president that lewis had arrived at the fort on september 15 in bad condition, suffering from malarial fevers. russell said that in about six days, lewis was perfectly

restored in every respect and able to travel. he also wrote the governor, luis state of the fort for an additional six to eight days, expecting that cowpland and russell himself would be allowed to travel with him to washington. russell had the same problems that lewis had. his bills were also not being paid by the federal bureaucrats. but his commanding officer, general james wilkinson, of new orleans, denied him permission to travel. william clark also received letters from captain russell after lewis' death, or he thought he did. but these letters contain the same lies that are part of the conspiracy cover-up stories. clarke wrote to his brother, jonathan, on november 26, 1809, quote, i have just received letters from captain russell who commands at the chickasaw blogs that governor lewis was there be

gained by him 15 days in a state of derangement most of the time. and that he attempted to kill himself before he got there. clarke also tells his brother that russell said that lewis made his will at the bluff and left william merriweather and myself executors and directed that i should dispose of his papers. well, the three lies in the so-called russell letters to clark arthur prior suicide attempts, the 15 days in the state of mental derangement, and that lewis had made a will at the fort. william clark searched for that will and never found it. other historians have searched. i searched for about a year, in every archive i can think of, and finally when i put these doctors together, and saw this pattern of conspiracy lies, i realized that there was no will. it was just a clever story that had been put into this letter to

make william clark accept the fact that his best friend had committed suicide. it misled him. and in that, of course, he was the executor of the estate, and he did take possession of the lewis and clark papers. it was an obvious thing that would have happened. so these letters must have been forgeries. there is an authentic world that was written in a small memorandum book, the will left everything to his mother, and he had written it and new madrid on his way down to fort pickering. captain russell would absolutely have told president jefferson about a second will written at the fort. he never mentioned it. again, someone was using captain russell's name to spread misinformation.

when clark received these letters, it was part of the cover-up. it helped to persuade him that he had indeed committed suicide. even though there wasn't a second will, it all happened, as i said. the letters from russell that clark thought he had received have never been found. undoubtedly, they were not written by russell but by someone else. and who might that be? i suggest general james wilkinson was behind the plot to assassinate louis. and that he wrote the fake russell letters and russell's statement that he was known to use forgeries during his long career of treachery. wilkinson is called america's greatest traitor by historians. he was a fifth generation mary landrieu who served as a commanding general of the united

states army for many years and was the first governor of louisiana territory in 1805. he became a secret agent of the spanish government in 1787, and was called agent number 13. he was a double agent over 30 years. general wilkinson died in mexico city in 1825 working for the mexican government. in the one short year that wilkinson was governor of louisiana territory in 1805, he created a lot of chaos over corrupt land deals. he was a co-conspirator with aaron burr in the 1806 attempt to invade mexico. but he betrayed burr and saved himself. at birth was indicted for treason and wilkinson narrowly escaped indictment.

merriweather lewis was present at birth trial, for treason, after he returned from the expedition. lewis served as jefferson's eyes and ears at the trial and report back to him. windlass accepted the position of governor of louisiana territory, his first responsibility was to root out suspected burr writes from position of power and influence. ehrenberg brother-in-law, joseph brown, had been wilkinson's territorial secretary. the territory was filled with brights and they were determined to get rid of merriweather lewis. i present evidence in the book pointed to a new filibuster plot to liberate mexico and obtain the wealth of its silver mines, and speculate that lewis must've been carrying information to president madison about it. that is also the question of the lead mines district south of saint louis.

10 square miles and had been reserved as public land by the federal government and was estimated to be worth $15 million, the price of the louisiana purchase. lead was used to make bullets. the land claims was about to start hearing the cases concerning the large landholde landholders. john smith t. was an enemy of lewis. that t. stands for tennessee by the way. [laughter] >> smithy had a private army battling austin for control of the lead mines district, and lewis was carrying papers relating to the lead mines. after lewis' death, all the documents he was carrying to washington were inventoried and neatly tied in bundles.

the documents section in our book has that inventory. they were carried to washington by a confederate of general wilkinson's. and when they were received, it was said that they were so badly sorted that no idea could be given them by any means of general description. in other words, his papers had been ransacked. what did merriweather lewis accomplish during his term as governor? lewis was remarkably good administrator in the 18 months he was in residence. he personally paid for and brought a printing press and printer, a man to start the first newspaper west of the missouri. he published the territorial laws. he started in saint louis masonic lodge. he negotiated a major treaty with the osage indians. he was a hard-working, honest

administrator working under very difficult and challenging circumstances, and he was surrounded by enemies. in may of 1809, louis adopted the teenage son of an interpreter. jessen and his family were returning home to the man dan villages with the man dan chief. his son wanted to stay in saint louis and attend school. lewis site indenture papers for him agreeing to provide for his education and upkeep for five years. lewis' mother was planning to move to saint louis the next year. he had purchased a property for her. he was investing in saint louis real estate. his brother was already living in saint louis, a partner in the missouri for company. merriweather lewis had a great deal to live for, and the broken

chap on the column on his monument says it all. a life cut short, and untimely death at the age of 35. some people feel that he could have become the president of the united states if he had lived. he was, as jefferson so aptly wrote, of courage undaunted, possessing a firmness and perseverance of purpose, which nothing but impossibilities could differ in each direction. we owe it to his memory to try and establish the cause of his death. i would like to invite you to visit our books website and sign up for my e-mail newsletter which i put out about once a month, if you want to stay current with developments. thank you. now we can have fun and just talk about what is on your mind.

>> why do you think, i mean, clark had a lot of power later on. why do you think, if he believed the lewis had been murdered, that he didn't conduct an investigation? >> that's a good question, and it is a natural one. i think the answer is that general wilkinson was command and general of the united states army, and that would have opened an investigation that nobody wanted to have. it did happen that a month after lewis' death, that general wilkinson was recalled to washington to be investigated by two congressional committees. won was because almost 1000 s. occurred under his command at new orleans in 1809, half of his

troops had died of disease. and the other was the charge that he was in the pay of spain. but both of those congressional hearings drew no conclusions, and instead, the whole matter was transferred to a military court. and he stood a court-martial in 1811 and he was absolved. so i would say that it was a very difficult time in american history. we were almost at war with france, britain and spain. there will revolutions, the colonial empire of spain was breaking up. there was a lot of things going on. and people just catchment it's just too much. the deed had been done. >> what evidence is there of any drug in our call of views on the

part of mr. lewis? >> that's a good question. drug and alcohol abuse, when you look at the documents, the document in the book make these charges, or you can infer this. but in terms of any earlier record, there is not one iota of evidence. he had a hit or enemy in saint louis named frederick bates. and bates was not shy about writing letters about how he hated lewis, and how he could do a better job than lewis. and lewis should be dismissed from office. he was a territorial secretary of lewis that it was really very difficult. but bates, as much as he complained and, you know, said he was an incompetent administrator, never once said that he was neurotic or depressed or an alcoholic or a drug user or now what he was was suffering from malaria fevers.

and malaria is caused by the bite of an infected mosquito. so that you can have every time you get bitten by an infected mosquito, and routinely everybody in these areas, in saint louis, in new orleans, in and washington, have malaria. is like -- we wouldn't talk about having a cold beer they didn't talk about malaria. they did use peruvian bark which is a kind of quinine, and when you take peruvian bark, it is bitter. you know, if you've ever draw quinine water, it is a bitter taste that this is very bitter. so it was generally taken with liquor. and on the way down, lewis was quite sick. he was sick when he left the saint louis. he was carried ashore at new madrid. he wrote a will.

he was drinking, i do believe that. but that was -- he also had a lot of things on his mind. i mean that he was in a very tough circumstance at that point. but in general, no. and captain russell said that he was in perfect health in six days. and he said lewis swore off hard liquor. and in fact, lewis left his, and the list of possessions, you can see he left his hard liquor case in a trunk back at the fort. so it was not common for him to drink, but opium was also used for the treatment of malaria. opium was the standard medical treatment at that time. yes? another question?

>> so do you believe the part about the three men coming to the and an iffy due hoodoo hypothesized that they were? >> well, that is a good question. i thought about. the local tradition is that mr. grinder and his nephew, i think it is by marriage, committed the murder. the actual murder. but when you look at these documents, you can see a widespread conspiracy. you know, people are telling things. people are writing letters. there's a letter written even before lewis has left the fort that he had made suicide attempts. which is just not true. so that is proved that in nashville, all of this is really

taken place in nashville, the conspiracy is actively at work. so the three men, i kind of tend to believe that, that that happened. and i would think they might have been people saying lewis, won't you please not bring those documents to washington? [laughter] >> whatever was on their minds, what ever he was going to interfere with their plans with. and i believed it was wilkinson who murdered him for many years, because wilkinson, i am actually researching the life of general wilkinson, and boy, does he have a career of treachery that goes back to 1776 moving forward. where was i going with that? there are two issues.

the spanish silver -- when i decided to put this book together, i thought, well, i really want to understand 1809. and that took me a year and i bought a lot of books and i got a lot of photocopy, just to try to sort out all the different -- there's a lot of different books about a lot of different things. and to my surprise, it led to early text history, i never expected that i would have to do that. and it's the early filibusters. it's been a lot of fun, but general wilkinson was involved with conspiracies to invade mexico from the 1780s on. it was a constant pursuit. the silver mines of mexico were what had made the wealth of the spanish empire for three centuries. two thirds of the silver of the world was in mexico, and the

king of spain had been deposed by napoleon in 1808. napoleon put his brother on the throne of spain. so that meant the entire spanish colonial empire was open for revisiting. who would they make alliances with, could england get back in, good friends, good america? there were independent movements and all these different countries, like brazil. it was a time of revolution. but not many of them had a major source of wealth very close to the american mortar. and what most people involved in this wanted, was to set up a new country. instead of having one united states going across the whole continent, they envisioned two countries. and aaron burr hoped to be the

emperor of the new country. do you have a question? >> how did general wilkinson meet his demise? i hope it was painful. [laughter] >> yeah, wilkinson suffered a lot of illness, and supposedly he died of an opium overdose in mexico. he was a remarkable man, and he actually did many good things for america during his career. mostly consisting of by train conspiracies. he betrayed a lot of conspiracies. which did help us because it kept us unified. and i think that a key -- if he felt sufficiently motivated he would have killed lewis to

preserve his own career. and at the time, there was a new book out called the proofs of the corruption of the general james wilkinson, published in september 1809, by his former good friend. a lot of people were trying to disassociate themselves from wilkinson by writing books about him, about how bad wilkinson was and how they really had nothing to do with him. so that was daniel clark, the richest man in new orleans. and that was the basis for one of those congressional hearings. there was an organization in new orleans called the mexican association, and it had 350 members. and their purpose was to liberate mexico, and they were americans. but the french were also active and the british were.

it was a time of turmoil. we won't know for sure about anything until we establish whether he was murdered or not. but if he was, and i think we would find that if he was exhumed, because according to the reports in 1848, there was a very big hole in the back of his head. and i think that deserves investigation. what bothers me, i don't mind suicide, you know. i don't mind somebody being called bipolar or something, but i mind if you don't say how many wonderful things he accomplished. you can say all he was depressed, he was alcoholic, he was bipolar. but he also managed to start a newspaper, start a masonic lodge, published the territorial laws, you know, and function very effectively.

but they don't do that. they say no, he was lazy. or he was out of it. and it is just not true. he was thrown into a very dangerous situation, and he knew it. and he hoped -- he left the territory in the most perfect state of tranquility he had ever been in is what he wrote at the end of his life. >> why do you suppose the park service refused to exhumed the body earlier? >> well, maybe 200th anniversary is the charm. [inaudible] >> no, they don't say that we. no, they never said. do you know, tony, was there a reason given? >> they said they had a duty, because the grave is located on national park property to have a

duty to protect the grave as a historical artifact and they did not want to begin the president of exhuming bodies all, although a president has been a status i believe in arlington. that's the reason they give. >> i read somewhere i think when the anniversary of the expedition started, that there were some people who followed the park service isn't really sure his body is there. >> right, but tony and i were talking about that earlier. first of all, you can see this on the web, on the genealogy sections for these family members. there's the coopers, the blacksmith family and others, local people, and they have the documents from that time. they said they saw the giant whole in the back of the school. they said they identified the iron nails.

you, they undoubtedly determined it was lewises remains. if they are going to the trouble of building a great big giant monument over his remains, they wouldn't just, you know, they would do something very special. to maintain them under the monument. and we expect that we will find that out, or we hope so. that's the other thing. lewis never had a ceremony. and he never, you know, a burial ceremony. and he never had a chance to be reburied in the family graveyard, and finally it occurred to me thinking about this, well, they couldn't afford to dig him up and rebury him. because they would have seen things that they didn't want to deal with.

south that may explain the mysterious silence of everyone. you know, they just did not want to get into that he was murdered, and it had happened. william clark never wrote anything about it, but there is a famine report that he did say in later life that he thought it was murder. and william clark's son, who was named merriweather lewis clark, wrote to the monument committee, he said have you heard the story that governor lewis was murdered? he said, you know, i would like to clear the reputation of governor lewis, if possible. >> kind of off the subject, but have you heard anything or done research about the pike expedition and a precursor? >> it is in the book. . .