people who live in small towns but it also makes it possible that again. you can compete for those types of industries and that will give you a couple of examples that are iowa examples. the google plant that is the opening near west des moines or has opened by this stage, it is called cloud computing whatever that is but apparently it is lots of computers together in a cloud. and again these are good jobs. they are sort of high-tech jobs but here is the thing about the google plant though. i just wonder how many iowans are going to get those jobs, because if you have a workforce why, is there a mismatch between those jobs and a workforce that is there and again that is the larger point that there needs to be better preparation for people to be able to do those jobs and so on so i think yes i think the

internet and digital technology more generally offers opportunities to build and grow, opportunities that would not have been there 15 or 20 years ago, but the danger is that then you focus on what they call-- so you are dependent on landing a big plant in maytag is a good example of what happens. it can almost kill you. so there is the danger of that too. >> just a kind of piggyback off that i am wondering what impact it will have this obviously we have had a major shift in the majorities of our industry is in the service sector that and a huge increase in the number of jobs that can be done from home so a lot of people are choosing to stay at home and work from home and of course the internet provides that opportunity but what impact that might have on

the number of people that choose to stay in or return after college because those opportunities are increasing and how we can maybe capitalize on that opportunity. >> here is the thing that struck us. we talked to a bunch of people in the state about building those opportunities and we talked to people in the generation of iowa commission. these are young people who have chosen tuesday after college, crazy people, right? and one of their pet peeves, the first report came out in 2007 a group to basically attract more people back or keep them after graduation and in their first report they said the digital infrastructure in iowa this is why shambles. there are so many bald spots that that is not even funny. there are places that you cannot get phone reception accord dial-up. it is not broadband but dial-up

is an aspiration than not a reality. again that is something that is relatively easy to do. kez ate technology develops it is much easier to build that kind of infrastructure. you are right, having those things in place not only to attract people back but a crazy thing, why can't stayers do jobs that allowed them to telecommute? why not? saud is not just i want to get people away from, build the goodies just to get people back. build the goodies for everybody who is there. we should all benefit from those things. rising tide for everybody it's a good thing and the other thing about a place like ellis or here for example in this town, we are standing in a beautiful new

library. you do have your wonderful aquatics center which i have swim in on occasion and there are tremendous amenities and a small town like this and it shows what is possible when you have people norris civically minded and engage. so i believe that small towns should develop their infrastructure for everybody, that it is a boon when people are attracted back by it but the digital stuff is a no-brainer, it should happen, much easier if it does. know expletives. >> patrick carr is a sociology professor at rutgers and also the author of "clean streets" and to find out is a directors dotsy edu you. historian khai regalia discusses who is she cost the mysterious

death of meriwether lewis. she makes the case he was murdered even though many believe it was suicide. the 2009 southern festival of books is the host of this event. it is about an hour. >> welcome to the southern festival of books. i am a former board member for tennessean that will be your moderator for this session. our authors kira gale, author of the death of mary wells lewis a crime scene investigation has entered the debate among historians as to how meriwether lewis of lewis and clark expedition died october 1189 in a small in your holy wall tennessee. did he take his own life as the federal agent in charge of the safety reported that the time or is it more likely he died at the hands of an assassin. as an efficient-- there were no remitted i witnessed new lewis receiving its fatal injuries and accounts of only fueled speculation.

in 1996 kira. >> host: what they are james starrs a james university school of law took the unusual step of encouraging local district attorney to convene a coroner's inquests some 187 years after the fact. the transcript is included in its entirety and kira's book. was a juror on that in quest. dr. starrs as worked at the list family to allow them to exhume the body for forensic examination. kira is the author of "lewis and clark roadtrips" comics following the trail across america. she worked on projects within the press the humanities council organize the first nebraska literature festival and served on the board for the nebraskans center for the book. ackers studies in nebraska history and lewis and clark clifford to a research of documents related to the upper louisiana territory where lewis served as governor when he died. from discovery she made she presents a case for a new theory

as to the cause of his death. kira maintains a web site, that of the merriweather louis.com and is the blog as to facts related to the mystery. please join me in welcoming kira gale. [applause] >> thank you very much. i am very pleased there is such a large attendance. tony reminded me that just at this time, 200 years ago today, louis was riding up to-- was the last day of his life and it was at dusk. because this is such a serious topic, i felt that i did need to prepare this as a written statement but i will try my best to read it well and then we can go into questions. abizaid 30 minute talk.

i would like to thank the southern book festival in tennessee humanities council for inviting me and tony for his introduction. tomorrow will mark the 200th anniversary of lewis's that. is one of the most significant and enduring mysteries of american history. was he murdered or did he commit suicide as is commonly believed? 200 years ago today this was his last day on earth. he was only 35 years old. he was traveling on the natchez trace on his way to washington d.c. and arrived at grandeur stand a roadside inn and tavern located 78 miles from nashville where we are today. sometime during the night he died of gunshot wounds. was it suicide or was it murder? after returning from the lewis and clark expedition lewis was appointed by president jefferson to become governor of louisiana

territory. he had moved to st. louis the capital of the territory and was going to washington to seek reimbursement for bill see have paid personally. bills for the territorial loss of louisiana and other government expenses, totaling almost $2,500. they were more than his years salary. he was accompanied by his dog, who traveled with him to the pacific coast and back in by his servant,. the was not a slave. he was a free man of the african and french descent. he had been a wide house servant while lewis was serving as jefferson's private secretary before the expedition. he was present on the night of lewis's death. he brought the news of his death to lewis's mother in charlottesville and presidents jefferson and madison.

within six months he would also be dead. supposedly of suicide. he died of an opium overdose. while waiting to receive his back pay of $240 from illicit state. we know that he died at grinders stand because the contemporary accounts said he died of grief that his master's grave. that is all we know and that is why our book was written. the book presents the evidence for why mary whether lewis's remains to be exhumed in order to determine the cause of his death. it also presents historical evidence, some 20 documents pertaining to his death that had never been seen before. they have never been gathered together. the last part of the book is my own theory as to who murdered him and why.

my co-author is a distinguished fellow of the academy of forensic science. he is a professor of forensic law ensign said george washington university and has conducted many investigations of mysterious deaths and historical mysteries including exhuming the remains of jesse james. whenever he decides to do an exhumation he first gets the written consent of family members. lewis' family members wholeheartedly support and exhumation. starting with meriwether lewis cost of food they have questioned whether his death was a suicide. over 200 collateral descendants have signed petitions asking for exhumation. they have set up a public-- they have set up a web site and hired a public relations firm. their web site is called solve the mystery.org.

they are neutral on the subject as to whether it was murder or suicide and simply want to solve the mystery, as they say. professor starrs is also neutral. i however believe it was murder. and i'd make the case for murder in the third section of the book. after the exhumation takes place, the family wants to have a christian reburial with military honors at the mary whether bill is national monument in gravesite. the monuments and gravesites is located on the natchez trace parkway where he met his death. in the early 1990's professor starrs realize in official coroner's inquest had never been held. he contacted you lewis county officials the county where the monument is located as suggested holding one. this modern inquest was held in

june 1996 and received national and international media attention. however, according to local tradition, there had been earlier in question 1810 but no records have been located. tradition has it that the local jurors were afraid to charge the innkeeper robert grantor and one of his relatives, thomas ran in with the murder. long loss records may yet turn up. tony turn bomb who introduced me has written a play about the 1810 inquest which is being performed this weekend and in which i have the pleasure of seeing a couple of nights ago. the transcript of the 1996 coroners' inquests contains the testimony of 13 act burd witnesses and it takes up the first half of our book. it is the reason for this subtitle, and historic sub-prime

investigation, csi with meriwether lewis. dufresne six side is chartwell known in their fields and that is for real. those are very big names. they have testified that thousands of court trials and coroners' inquests. all the witnesses volunteer their time and were only paid for travel expenses. professor starrs start of the testimony to the coroner's journey. three historians testified, one for suicide, one for murder and another examined the state of lewis' finances. a geologist discuss the geology of the grave site. and expert on the psychology of suicide, a former homicide detective who had investigated over 2,000 deaths said that in using a psychological profile he would investigate lewis' death as a homicide. to documents that the examiners to cleared a crucial piece of

evidence that the suicide theory, a so-called russell statement was a forgery. to medical doctors testified about analyzing the path of gunshot wounds. a firearms expert gave a demonstration, firing off his 69 caliber black powder pistol, the type of weapon that lewis was carrying. one expert testified he believed lewis was suffering from a bad kefalas and had shot himself in a fit of mental derangement. a current biographer thinks that lewis shot himself because he was in the middle of malarial fever. and finally dr. william vest has called the father of forensic anthropology. he founded the world famous university of tennessee forensic anthropology lab known as the body part.

maybe it is not a coincidence that the state of tennessee has pioneered forensic anthropology considering the role that the mysterious death of meriwether lewis has played in the state's history. at the conclusion of the testimony the seven members of the jury delivered their verdict. they asked the national park service to exhume the remains of meriwether lewis to determine the cause of his death. the park service, which has jurisdiction over the monuments and gravesite refused to grant its and blocks subsequent appeals. recently when the family mobilized to try once again to have an exhumation followed by a christian reburial with military honors at the grave site. this year the family was allowed to submit an application to the park service and currently technical reports are being

submitted. when they are and then there will be a hearing over whether there should be an exhumation. if the park service grants permission, then dr. barryman of forensic anthropologist at middle tennessee state university will be in charge of the exhumation. he will write the final report. at the 200th anniversary of the graveside ceremony that was held earlier this week, the national park service announced that a 3 million-dollar visitor center will be built at the gravesite, which up to now has been a very lonely place. if then exhumation takes place, what is likely to be discovered? well, there was a previous exhumation. it took place in 1848, when the state of tennessee honored

lewis' memory by erecting a monument over the grave site. in the course of building a monument his remains were exhumed. lewis' bones were identified by the presence of square iron nails that had been forged by a local blacksmith to build the coffin. now we can use dna to establish that these are his fund's. there were three members of the monument committee. one was a medical doctor. in 1850 the committee submitted their final report to the state legislature. they added a highly provocative statement, making certain that this information became part of the permanent legislative record. they said, the oppression has long prevailed that under the influence of disease of body and mind of hope based upon long and

valuable services, not merely deferred but wholly disappointed, governor lewis perished by his own hands. it seems to be more probable that he died by the hands of an assassin. what could that monument committee have seen? was it a bullet in the back of his head, a bullet hole? that is what the local people reported seeing at the exhumation when they identified the iron nails. we should attempt to find out the truth by conducting a modern scientific exhumation. in 1924 when the state of tennessee applied for national monuments that is, they called his death a murder. the letter stated, investigations have satisfied the public that he was murdered, presumably for the purpose of robbery. the accounts of his death by suicide on the other hand are all second hand.

there are no eyewitness reports. there are three stories told by the innkeeper's wife after listing path that all of which contradict each other. in the first to accounts she says that she heard two gunshots on that night. in the third account told years later she said she heard three gunshots. the first account was told to indian agent james nealy who was escorting clewiston nashville. agents nealy was traveling with lewis but he wrote to president jefferson that he was not with them on the night of his death. he said to packhorses straight away from their camp the night before and he stayed behind looking for them. he had sent lewis on the head with the serevent and his own servants to grinder's stand. agents nealy arrived deaths grinder's stand some time surely

after lewis' dep to arrange his burial. nealy's letter is the primary evidence for the suicide theory. oddly enough president jefferson never wrote about lewis' death except for the introduction he wrote to the lewis and clark journals when they were published in 1814. he was strangely silent about the death of his friend and protege. as was lewis' best friend, william clark. there is no attempt by anyone to investigate lewis' debt or to our brains for is reburial at the family graveyard in charlottesville behind lewis family home. james daly plays a mysterious role in these events. heat said lewis' to epistles, his rifle, his gold watch and his wars. most likely he also took his money because $100 in cash was

missing. lewis' step-brother john marks journey to nealy's homan 1811 and managed to retrieve lewis' courson rifle, but nealy was away from home and have the thistles and watch with him. the second mrs. grinder account was written by ornithologist alex wilson who visited grinder's stand after lewis' death. the account has been misstated as having been written in 1811 but in fact it was written in may of 1810 just six months that there lewis' death. wilson who lives in philadelphia was traveling south in search of new birds then seeking subscribers for the first volume of this famous american ornithology. he was one of lewis' best friends. lewis had given him the bird specimens they collected on the lewis and clark expedition to

beat illustrated for publication. while visiting grinder's stand wilson page robert grinder to put up a fence to protect lewis' graves from the walls and got his written promise that he would do so. wilson wrote, i left this place in a very melancholy mood which was not much delayed by the prospect of the glenny and savage wilderness which i was just entering alone. mrs. greiner told alexander wilson a new version of her story. in this account she said she saw lewis crawling of around the yard after being shot. in all three accounts mrs. grinder said she spent the night in a kitchen cabin near the cabin with the family lived. the cabin lifton one of two log cabins that for joined by a common roof, a style of frontier

architecture called a dog cabin. travelers would stay on the other side of the family cabin. the kitchen cabinet was several yards away from the double cabin and mrs. grinder stayed there that night with three young children, her children and perhaps the young hired girl. the two servants who were accompanying lewis were staying in the horse barn about 200 yards away. wilson writes that mrs. grinder-- grinder told him she heard two pistol shots from lewis' cabin and in a few minutes she heard him at your door calling out, madam give me some water and heal my wounds. she saw him stagger back and fall against the step that stands between the kitchen then the room. he crawled some distance and raised himself up by this side of the tree where he sat for about a minute.

it is a very dramatic account which has often been cited by historians but however much it has been proven to be false. professor john guys who has written another book on the death of meriwether lewis research the phases of the moon for that night. he found out that on the night of october 10, 11, 18 no nine it was the night after a new moon. you could not see anything on this natchez trace. it was pitch black. mrs. grinder could not have seen what she described. there are other unbelievable aspect to our stories. mrs. grinder said that she had to go to the barn to wake up the to's leaping servants who slept through the gun fire from to epistles. at a distance of 200 yards. and what about seamen.

there is no mention of the dog. anyone who knows the story of seamen on the expedition knows he would have been barking like crazy, whatever was happening that night. the third account is the most interesting and perhaps the closest to the truth. it was published in a newspaper in 1845. the writer had interviewed mrs. grinder in 1838 when she was 57 years old. robert grinder had since died and perhaps then she felt free to tell another version. in this account she makes three new and very different statements. the first one is, right about now, 200 years ago. about dark, two were three other men rode up and called for lodging. mr. lewis immediately step towards them and challenged them to fight a dual.

and not liking the salutation, rode on to the next house 5 miles. the second statement is that she heard three gunshots instead of two gunshots. supposedly lewis committed suicide by using each one of his two pistols. if instead it was actually three pistol shots then it must have been an assassination. she also said that after his death, lewis was found to be wearing old then tattered clothing when his body was discovered. his servant on the morning of lewis' dep was wearing lewis' clothes and carrying his gold watch. it seems likely that lewis and-- replanning for lewis to escape by having him act as a decoy. there is yet one other separate account called the russell

statement made in 1811. anice account lewis not only shoots himself twice, once in the head and once in the chest but he is found cutting himself from head to foot with a razors before he died. historians have generally makes these accounts together picking and choosing as they like, because the documents have never been published before in their entirety. it was not possible to compare them but now they are in this book and you can read them for yourself. this suicide stories on the face of it don't make any sense. how can a career army officer, an expert blocks may not managed to kill himself with the first shot? the bullets were about the size of the 25-cent coin, a 69 caliber. what if instead he was shot in the back of the head while trying to escape his assassins

and and exhumation will provide the answer. other evidence in the document section points to a wider conspiracy and cover-up. in assembling the historical documents for publication i began to see a pattern of lies and misinformation. if i had not put these documents together it would not have become apparent. the most crucial evidence is the contradiction between the contents of the two authentic letters, which were written by captain gilbert c. russell to president jefferson in january 1810. captain russell was the commander of fort pickering wireless bense some of the last days of his life. however there is another statement called the russell statement that supposedly was written by him in 1811 and has been used to support the suicide

theory. its to letters that he did write in january and were certified by the documents experts at the coroner's inquest to be authentically written in his handwriting. the russell statement was certified to have been either written or signed by either captain russell or by his witness, major jonathan williams. the most damaging misinformation in the so-called pressel statement is that lewis attempted to commit suicide twice what he was on his way to fort pickering. it was said that in one of his attempts he almost succeeded and it was prevented from doing so by the boat crew. this is just simply a lie. it is a key component of the conspiracy cover-up story. the reason we know it is a lie is because of the two authentic letters of captain pressel which

reports to jefferson about everything he knows about lewis' last days. ..

which cannot be so as he had not himself and the governor had more than $100 in notes and species besides a check which i lead in half of $98.58, $99.58. none of which it has had him be found. captain russell told the president that lewis had arrived at the fort on september 15 and.condition, suffering from malarial fevers. russell said that in about six days lewis was vertically restored in every respect and be able to travel. he also wrote the governor lewis stated the fort for an additional six to eight days expect he met captain russell himself would he allowed to travel with him to washington. russell had the same problems that lewis had. his bills were also not being paid by the federal bureaucrats. but his commanding officer,

general james wilkinson, in new orleans denied him permission to travel. william clark also received letters from captain russell after lewis' death. or he thought he did. but these letters contain the same lies that were part of the conspiracy coverup stories. clarke wrote to his brother jonathan on november 26, 1809, quote, i have just received letters from captain wrestle who commands that the chickasaw bluffs be governor lewis was there to detain him 15 days in his stated arrangement most of the time. and that he attempted to kill himself before he got there. clarke also tells his brother that russell said that lewis made his will at the bluffton left william meriwether and myself executives and directed that i should suppose of his papers. well, the three lies in the

so-called russell letters to clark are the prior suicide attempts. the 15 days in a state of mental derangement and that lewis had made a will at the fort. william clark searched for that will and never found it. other historians have surged. i have searched for it for about a year and every archive i could find out and finally when i put these documents together and saw this pattern of conspiracy lies, i realized that there was no will. it was just a clever story that had been put into this letter to make william clark accept the fact that his best friend had committed suicide. it misled him. and in fact, of course, he was the executive of the state and he did take possession of the lewis and clark papers. it was an obvious thing that would've happened. so these letters must have been

forgeries. there is enough on sleep well fed was written in a small member in the book, the will left everything to his mother and he had written it in new madrid on his way down to fort pickering. captain wrestle with absolutely have told president jefferson about a second well written at the forest. he never mentioned it. again someone was using captain russell's name to sped untruths spread misinformation. when clark received these letters that was part of the coverup. it helped to persuade him that he had indeed committed suicide. even though there wasn't a second well, it all happened as i said. the letters from russell that clark thought he received have never been found.

undoubtedly, they were not written by russell but i someone else, and you might that be. i suggest general james wilkinson was behind the plot to assassinate lewis. and that he wrote the faked russell letters and russell statements. wilkinson is called america's greatest traitor by historians. he was the fifth generation marylander who served as a commanding general of the united states army for many years and was the first governor of louisiana territory in 1805. he became a secret agent of the spanish government in 1787 and it was called agent number 13. he was a double agent for over 30 years. general wilkinson died in mexico city in 1825, working for the

mexican government. in the one short year that wilkinson was governor of louisiana territory in 1805, he created a lot of chaos over corrupt land deals. he was a co-conspirator with ehrenberg in the 1806 to invade mexico. but he betrayed her and saved himself. he was indicted for treason and wilkinson narrowly escaped indictment. meriwether lewis was present for his trial for treason after he returned from the expedition. lewis served as jefferson's eyes and ears of the trial and reported back to him. when lewis accepted the position of governor of louisiana territory, his first responsibility was to root out suspect dead brides from positions of power and

influence. aaron burr brother joseph brown had been wilkinson's territorial secretary. the territory was filled with bright and they were continued to get rid of meriwether lewis. i present evidence in the book pointed to a new filibuster but to liberate mexico and obtain the wild of the silver mines. and speculate that lewis must've been carrying information to president madison about it. there is also the question of the landmine district south of st. lewis. ten square miles that had been reserved as public land by the federal government and was estimated to be worth $15 million, the price of the louisiana purchase. that was used to make wallets. the land claims board was about to start hearing the cases concerning the large landholders. john smith t. was an enemy of

lewis. the t. stands for tennessee, by the way. smith t. have a private army battling moses austin for control of the landmine district and lewis was carrying papers relating to the lead mines. after lewis' death, all the documents he was carrying to washington were inventoried and link retied in bundles. the document section in our back has that inventory. they were carried to washington by a confederate of general wilkinson. and when they were received, it was sad that they were so badly assorted that no idea could be given them a bye in of general description. in other words, his papers had been ransacked.

what did meriwether lewis accomplished during his term as governor? lewis was remarkably good administrator in the 18 months he was in residence. he personally paid for and brought a printing press and printer, a man to start the first newspaper west of the missouri. he published the territorial laws. he started the st. lewis may sonic lodge a negotiated a major treaty with the osage indians. he was a hard worker, on as administrator working under very difficult and challenging circumstances and he was surrounded by enemies. in may of 1809, lewis adopted the teenage son of an interpreter written any just a man. he and his family were returning home to the villages with command in chief, big white.

his son wanted to stay in st. lewis and attend school. lewis signed in denture papers for truth and, agreed to provide for his education and upkeep for five years. lewis' mother was planning to move to st. lewis the next year. yet purchased a property for her. he was investing in st. lewis real estate. his brother was already living in st. lewis, a partner in the missouri for company. meriwether lewis had a great deal to live for and the broken shaft of the column on his monument says it all, a life cut short, and untimely death at age 35. some people feel that he could have become the president of the united states if he had lived. he was, as jefferson so aptly wrote, of courage undaunted possessing a firmness and perseverance of purpose, which nothing but impossibilities could do for from its direction.

we owe it to his memory to try and establish the cause of his death. i'd like to invite you to visit our books website and sign-up for my e-mail newsletter, which i put out about once a month if you want to stay current with the developments. thank you. now we can have fun and just talk about what is on your mind. >> i have a question. [inaudible] why do you think, i mean clark had a lot of power later on. why do you think if you believe the lewis had been murdered that he didn't conduct an investigation? >> that's a good question. and it's a natural one. i think the answer is that

general wilkinson was commanding general of the united states army and that would've opened an investigation that nobody wanted to have. it did happen not a month after lewis' death, general wilkinson was recalled to washington to be investigated by two congressional committees. one was because of almost a thousand deaths that occurred under his command at new orleans in 1809, half of his troops had died of it disease and the other was the charge that he was in the pay of spain. but both of those congressional hearings drew no conclusions and instead the whole matter was transferred to a military court and he stood a court-martial in 1811 and he was absolved.

so i would say was a very difficult time in american history. we were almost to war with france, great written, and sprain. the revolution that colonial empire span was breaking up. there was a lot of things going on. and people just -- it's just too much. he was, you know, the deed had been done. >> other questions? >> what evidence is there of any drug and alcohol abuse on the part of mr. lewis? >> that's a good question. a drug and alcohol abuse, when you look at the documents, the documents in the book make these charges or you can infer that. but in terms of any earlier record, there is not one iota of evidence. he had a bitter enemy in st. lewis named frederick b. and

bates was not shy about writing letters about how he hated lewis and how he could do a better job than lewis and lewis should be dismissed. he was the territorial secretary of lewis. it was really very difficult. but bates, as much as he complained and, you know, said he was an incompetent administrator never want said that he was or depressed or an alcoholic or a drug user. now what he was was suffering from malarial sievers. malaria is caused by the bite of a mosquito so that you can have it every time you get written by an infected mosquito. and routinely, everybody in this area is, in st. lewis and new orleans, washington had malaria.

it's like we wouldn't talk about having a cold. well, they didn't talk about malaria. they did use peruvian bark which is a quinine and when you take peruvian bark, it's better. you know, if you've ever drunk by nine water it is a bitter taste. well this was very bitter. so it was generally taken with flickr. and on the way down the river, lewis was quite thick. he was sick when he left st. lewis. he was carried ashore and wrote a well. he was drinking, i do believe that. he also had a lot of things on his mind. he was in a very tough circumstance at that point. in general, no. and captain russell said, you know, that he was in perfect health in six days and lewis swore off hard liquor. and in fact, lewis left his

comment in the list of possessions you can see that he left his hard liquor case and a trunk back at the fort. so it was not common for him to drink. but opium was also used for the treatment of malaria. opium was a standard medical treatment at that time. yes? another question? yes? >> so do you believe the part about the three-man coming to the end and if you do, who do you hypothesize that they were? >> well, that's a good question. i thought about it. you know, the local tradition is

that mr. granger and his nephew i think it is by marriage committed the murder, the actual murder. but when you look at these documents, you can see a widespread conspiracy. you know, people are telling things, writing letters. there's a letter written even before lewis has left the fort that he had made suicide attempts. which is just not true. so that is proof that in nashville, because all of this is really taking place in nashville, you know, the conspiracy is actively at work. so the three-man, if i kind of tend to believe that, that that happened. and i would think they might've been people saying lewis, why don't you not bring those documents to washington, whatever was on their mind when

everything he was going to interfere with their plans with. and i believe he was wilkinson who murdered him for many years. because wilkinson, i'm actually researching the life of general wilkinson and boy does he have a career of treachery and conspiracies that go back to 1776 and forward. but where was i going with that? all there's two issues. when i decided to put this book together, i thought well i really want to understand 1809. and that took me a year and about a lot of books and a lot of photocopy just you try to sort out all of the different, there's a lot of different books by a lot of different things. and to my surprise, it led to early texas history.

i never expected that i would have to do that. and if the early filibusters. and it's been a lot of fun. the general wilkinson was involved with conspiracies to invade mexico from the 17 80's on. it was a constant pursuit. the silver mines of mexico what had made the wealth of the spanish empire for three centuries. it was two thirds of the silver of the world was in mexico. and the king of spain had been deposed by napoleon in 1808. napoleon put his brother on the throne of spain. so that meant the entire spanish colonial empire was open for revisiting. who would they make alliances with, could england get back in, good friends, good america?

there were independent movements and all of these different countries like result. it was a time of evolution. but not many of them had a major source of help very close to the american border. and what most people involved in this wanted was to set up a new country, instead of having one united states going across the whole continent, they envision two countries. and aaron burr hope to be the emperor of the new country. do you have a question? >> how did general wilkinson meet his demise? i hope it was painful. [laughter] >> yeah, wilkinson suffered a lot of vilna says and supposedly he died of an opium overdose, in

mexico. he was a remarkable man and he actually did many good names for america during his career. mostly consisting of betraying conspiracies. he betrayed a lot of conspiracies, which did help us because it kept us unified. and i think that he -- if he felt sufficiently motivated he would've killed lewis to preserve his own career. and at the time, there was a new book out called the proofs of the corruption of general james wilkinson published in september 1809 by his former good friend. a lot of people would try and disassociate themselves from wilkinson by writing books about how bad wilkinson was and how

they really had nothing to do with them. so that was daniel clark, the richest man in new orleans. and now was the basis for one of those congressional hearings. there was an organization in new orleans called the mexican association and it had 350 members. and their purpose was to liberate mexico and they were americans. but the french were also act as in the british were. it was a time of turmoil. we well know for sure about anything until we establish whether he was murdered or not. but if he was, and i think we would find that if he was exhumed, because according to the reports in 1848 there was a very big hole in the back of his

head. and i think that deserves investigation. what bothers me, i don't mind suicide, you know, and i don't mind somebody being called bipolar or something, but i'd mind it if you don't say how many wonderful things he accomplished. you can say he was depressed, he was an alcoholic, he was bipolar, but he also managed to start a newspaper, start a masonic lodge, published the territorial laws and function very effectively. but they don't do that. they say no, he was lazy or he was out of there. and it's just not true. he was thrown into a very dangerous situation and he knew it. and he hoped -- he left the territory in the most perfect state of tranquility about ever been in is what he wrote at the end of his life.

so -- >> why do you suppose the park service refused to exhume the body earlier? >> well, maybe 200th anniversary of the term. they don't say it that way. do you know, tony? was very reason given? >> a sickly because the grave is located on national park robbery they had to protect the grave as a historical artifact and they did not want to begin a president of exhuming bodies, although that president has been established in arlington. but that's the reason they give. >> i read somewhere, i think when the anniversary of the

expedition started that there were some people who thought the park service isn't really sure his body as they are is one reason they don't exhume it. >> tony and i were talking about that earlier. first of all, you can see this on the web, on the genealogy section for these family members, the coopers, the blacksmith family, and other local people. and they have the documents from that time. they said they saw this giant hole in the back of his skull. they identified the iron nails, you know, they undoubtedly determined it was lewises remains. well, if they are going to the trouble of building a great big giant monument over his remains, they wouldn't just, you know, they would be something very special to maintain none under the monument. and we expect that we will find

that out, or we hope so. and that's the other thing. lewis never had a ceremony. and he never, you know, a burial ceremony. and he never had the chance to be reburied at the family graveyard. and it finally occurred to me thinking about those, well, they couldn't afford to dig them up and rebury him because they would have seen things that they didn't want to deal with. so that may explain the mysterious silence of everyone, you know, that they just did not want to get into that he was murdered and it had happened. william clark never wrote anything about it, but there is a family report that he did say in later life that he thought it was murder. and william clark's son, whose

names meriwether lewis clark wrote to the monument committee and he said have you heard the story that governor lewis was murdered? he said, you know, i'd like to clear the reputation of general -- governor lewis as possible. >> gas tax >> this is slightly off subject, but have you done any research about the zebulon pike expedition? >> gas, it's in the book. >> was not a precursor to a. >> wait till you read mike conspiracies section. i had a lot of fun teasing that out. it's very interesting and of course that's general wilkinson. at the same time that the lewis and clark expedition is returning home in 1806, there's several expeditions unauthorized done now by general wilkinson, including zebulon pike. and it's all for the purpose of,

you know, they wanted to take taxis and maybe mexico. and i shouldn't try to get into that whole zebulon pike strike that you'll be fascinated. it has to do with captain herrera. remember when we are also at war with spain and wilkinson and the mexican colonel herrera make a private agreement to establish a neutral ground between the spanish territory and american territory? that's where every pirate and scoundrel and filibuster stays for the next, you know, 15 or 20 years, is the staging ground for invasions. but anyway, the same kernel that may be agreement with general wilkinson, he's the one that posted the zebulon pike at his house when the zebulon