we want these to be job-creating. so there's a lot of divergence of reasons why that hadn't gotten through. however, this last september in jeddah at one of the quarterly members, they committed $3.8 billion to yemen as of three months ago. i haven't yet seen that written up here but $3.8 billion this last september and then saudi arabia alone provides $1 billion a year to yemen. there has been a saudi arabian/yemen joint commission for some time now begun under the chairmanship of saudi arabia's crown prince sultan. but $1 billion a year has been pumped in there for quite some time. and earlier saudi arabia's aid to yemen was recognized by the world world bank and the imf and others as greater than all of the aid coming from the world bank of the imf, the dutch, the germans and others contributing to yemen's economy.

there is a knee-jerk objection and rejection to it being a full-fledged member on the following grounds. i gave one of them. that it came into existence on the ashes of these very kinds of regimes that have inherent right of self-protection uppermost on their minds. there is as well the reality of yemen's demography. 27 million people. 130,000 villages of under 200 people in each. we have only 200 people in a village, you have no school, you have no road. you have no electric power. you have no sewage system. you have no clinic. so at each of the dccc meetings with a country that has these kinds of needs so dramatically in contrast to the others, it would distract. it would delay.

it would preclude easy consensus or easier consensus as such so the view has been let's help yemen not off the books but separately in a bilateral way. and so saudi arabia has been doing this longer but so has oman and so has the united arab emirates and the united arab emirates late last leader, the sheik, believed archeologists that its ancestral roots were that feeds in the dam and he gave thousands of yemenis citizenship and two might be in this room those kind of additional ways and on the omani side the building of a road that had to have cost tens if not hundreds of millions of dollar from dofar from linking the oman to the eastern most and most impoverished of all of yemen's

provinces was all undertaken by the sultan out of oman so there's these different ways. they are now members of nine dccc committees up until about five years ago there were only members of about two or three. yemen is offering 2 million of its laborers to work on the dccc projects which is a big offer and it could meet some of the dccc countries manpower needs. on the other hand, they are typically not well-educated. and they're not of the skills and experience that the dccc economies need which are more midlevel and upper level people. does that give you a feel for where they're going on that? >> how does the railroad development you described play against dubai's role in a financial center in light of the dubai world default.

does the railroad agreement represent a shift to an alternate form of economic activity? >> thank you. i'd invite anybody else's comment on that because i'm not an engineer and i'm not a conductor and not an economist either. it's seen as an additive and not as a competitive. on the other hand, analytically it is seen as competitive. and what i have to say here comes from two of dubai's leading economic strategists, analysts, decision-makers. and both of them have told me that when sa-lalla in oman is connected to this railway network, and it's not at this point, even in terms of the feasibility planning, we see ourselves losing up to 20% of what we have now. why? because for the traffic going in the gulf, the bulk is going for

the markets in iran by way of dubai. and they know every inch of the 550-mile southern iranian coastline there. but it's a detour to go into the gulf. if you think of the east/west maritime routes heading west towards the suez canal to the atlantic and beyond, it's a day and a half detour with all the fuel, monetary, savings, insurance, everything, plus you have to go through the hormuz channel and they'll clean your clock when there's hostility in the region and there's three days to offload and to on-load another day and a half back out just to get in the regular shipping lanes. so salia is poised better positioned better and dubai has made out extraordinarily well all these years but when it

began, oman was locked down into its guerilla war, the civil war in dofar. and national security trumps economic development and modernization eight days a week. and so oman could not take advantage of its more favorable geographic position then bubs dubai did. but it remains to be seen dubai can hold that commanding lead. the decision-makers have said we calculate we'll lose 20% when that happens. it'll be so much more economical for people to offload at salia and by air and rail and take it to beirut and athens and not need to come into the gulf to the degree they have thus far. >> let me go back to the yemen question and come at it from the other side. in the final communique, the

yemen position is coupled with a prior statement about saudi arabia's right to defend its territorial integrity, it's cultural integrity. and i wonder how you respond to so much of the western reporting and how the members of the dccc see the threat both to saudi arabia from the immediate disputes along the border with yemen but also broader question that get dramatic attention about whether or not there's something approaching a proxy war going on here where iran -- where a shia threat is being staged from yemen that is a serious threat to the kingdom? >> one, it's difficult to know because it's in one of the most remote, least-visited regions of yemen in the northernmost regions. and if you come from saudi

arabia side, it's least accessible for foreign visitors to travel to. so much of the information that we're reading may be skewed because it's coming from secondhand or nonempirically or nonvalidated places on the ground. we know one of the persons we work with peter from the national public radio who did make it to sada there. the aspects of it being a proxy war of iran being extensively or even minimally involved, i have yet to see the evidence. and all of the saudi arabians that i've spoken with as well as yemenis -- all the saudi arabians i spoke with have denied it and some of the yemenis have implied that or one to never it because it certainly does get your attention when they make the claim or insinuate that iran is behind these rebels. i don't see it myself unless you

say that because people in iran cheer when they hear that a group of yemeni rebels gave saudi arabia a blow, that would hardly count as operational assistance. or something that could be a deal maker or deal breaker. >> what is the future of alternative energy sources among the dccc countries? does the u.s./uae 12, 2, 3 agreement set the stage for a peaceful civilian nuclear power generation regime inside the dccc and beyond? >> these are great questions because i would have overlooked addressing that. but, yes, indeed it is being discussed in the following context.

the country that's focused on it more than any other is kuwait. for two reasons. when the chernobyl disaster happened in 1986, there was an international fund under the u.n. auspiceses established to help relocate the 200,000 people in the chernobyl region who had -- were displaced for health reasons and had to be relocated elsewhere. kuwait was a major contributor to that fund and the fund managers delegated kuwait to administer it. since 1986, situate has been in the nuclear issue there. and research through kuwait institute for science and research and the kuwait university and elsewhere have come up with the equivalent of double-hulled vessels. after the spills of the exxon valdezes, and the notions -- if

hulls, and have double hulls hole and the first can take a blunt of a iceberg or a blast or subterfuge of some kind but the ship would set aright because there's a second hull. and their view on this and that's worth looking at if you're concerned about the contagion and the radiation possible effects from a chernobyl-like disaster. second, i've sat in meetings with iraqis, kuwaitis and the iranis and the kuwaitis are most alarmed with these people in the meeting. and it's concluded if there's any accident at the plant which is the one closest to the gulf and the one for which the russians are the contracted suppliers of the fuel, that this would immediately have a

contagion effect of psychological proportions that are limited only by the imagination in terms of people not even entering the gulf. and because kuwait has no pipelines out of the gulf, oil or gas or anything else and is totally dependent on that 550 to 600-mile route from kuwait to the exit of the gulf, it sees its power plants shut down. it sees it's diesel plants shut down. so kuwait is into the nuclear aspect in a way that's less publicized than what you've read about this past year in the united arab emirates. but thirdly kuwait's situation pales in contrast with saudi arabia's and qatar's because much of its energy is derivative of oil. and oil is thicker. it has more pollutants and the sulfuric content there is more

damaging to the environment and so in this age of green and leaving a more indelible, cleaner environmental footprint they're into this and serious about it. so that's why kuwait is coming from. and why they have been discussing with iran and qatar using gas as opposed to continuing to rely on oil for its energy needs and the nuclear at the same time. prolong the oil and gas reserves, to have a cleaner fuel and one that would not be as damaging to the environment. saudi arabia in the summit that went to in december of 2006 pushed through a resolution whereby all six went from thenceforth corporate with the international atomic agency in paris for peaceful nuclear development purposes. and when we asked why then and

why in that way, the answer was kind of clever and said, look, if you live next door to a neighbor and your neighbor just bought a shotgun, what do you think your neighbor would think if you didn't buy one also? so that was too clever by half but the atmospheric receptivity to do something because december 2006 was as close as i've seen the more hawkish element in the u.s. government seemingly intent on bringing iran down on this particular issue. and meetings some of you who are in the government and who were then in the government you said and the same ones i sat in there where people on the nsc and elsewhere said no enrichment is to be allowed in terms of iran. we're already past that. way past that. and we're also past the mid-september deadline. but you see these several different ways of approaching the use of alternate energy fuels.

the area between iran and kuwait is vast and yet to be discovered gas deposits. and qatar on its side is a gas-producer and gas exporter is looking for customers and kuwait is seriously leaning and inclined in that direction. >> i won't give you long to sit down. does the movement toward a common gulf currency also represent a step toward moving the gulf currencies away from being pegged to the u.s. dollar? >> the short answer is no. and so is the long one. but there's a context for this. four years ago at the summit in abu dhabi at the uae, inflation was rampant in the region. no dccc country had less than 12% inflation there which is unusual for them. some had 16%.

and so at that time there was talk that maybe we should revisit this and kuwait has been the wisest all along because whereas all the others denominate their currency to the american dollar or peg it to the american dollar for the the exchange mechanism for financial transactions, kuwait has a basket of currencies which protects itself when the dollar is up or down it fluctuates even though the american dollar is the biggest egg in that basket of currencies. so the consensus, as i gathered it, is that we will remained pegged to the dollar in part for the reasons i've given before, the trillion dollars that they have invested abroad, half of those are invested in the united states. secondly, that most of the world's central banks hold large amounts of u.s. treasury instruments in their reserve currencies and so they know that they're not out of step in this particular regard and thirdly,

they believe that this over time but education and information playing a role here will possibly allow americans to expand their perception of us as just being gas stations. that we're also countries. that we're fought just objects. -- not just objects. we're not just people who are to be manipulated and exploited and taken advantage of but people who deserve a seat at the table. they were able to push this point in the last year. in october of last year, just before the election, the u.s. assistant secretary treasury went to every dccc country but one not with begging bowl in hand but in a way to say what can you people do to help us over this crisis that we have here. there has been a positive response from kuwait, from qatar, from saudi arabia, from the uae on these kinds of things and their hope is that people will see us as financially supportive and an enabler of

america's preeminent status in international and financial institutions and as a world superpower to continue. this is what we bring to the table. america needs it. we have it. what we resent is being asked to be there on the landing but seldom if ever on the takeoff. we demand being there on the takeoff, too. and in september, they were. there was the g20 and saudi arabia represented all of them then for the first time. >> we're going to take two more questions. if that's all right with you, dr. anthony. what is the dccc's stance on addressing the, quote, human rights issues which appear on american media? and the second question is, why are the dccc countries purchasing large blocks of farm land in africa? >> on the human rights that's a

sensitive one as for any country especially when the concern is coming from the outside. and it's got to the point where the european union that at the last summit they halted what had been their negotiations with the e.u. since 1987. from '86 they agreed they would try to have a free trade agreement and they started meeting annually in 1987 and last year they counseled them because they put no demands on the e.u. countries with regard again interfering with e.u. country's domestic affairs. the e.u. countries did put demands on the dccc countries there with regard to human rights and monitoring mechanisms as well. and the dccc countries rejected both of those across-the-board. again on the grounds of mutuality of benefit reciprocal respect. so that one is frozen. in the interim, though, they have signed a free trade agreement with the european free trade association. in the last year and they've also signed one with new zealand

and they signed one with singapore. there are no such talks to my knowledge with regard to north america as such. that's a human rights one. a second one on that -- [inaudible] >> purchasing land in africa, that's another good one because some of you are old enough or young enough to remember the second televised tv debate between jimmy carter and gerald ford in 1975. when carter and ford were contesting the presidency. governor carter if there's an oil embargo on us again what would you do? and immediately he said what i would immediately proclaim a food embargo on them. and, boy, you could have heard a pin drop between washington and riyadh there. that was when they viewed agriculture self-reliance and food production as a strategic issue and this is when they brought in their agribusiness

that didn't exist before. they had rural middle class they didn't have before. they expanded their chambers of commerce. they became the world's seventh largest exporter of wheat, okay, inside of one decade and they became famous for exporting strawberries to france in january and tulips to the netherlands also in january. but they did it at great cost to their own natural water resources, their aquifers and they said we are going to stop the food imports because of the strategic value of water. so it's a gamble. it's a gamble in two ways. one, they don't have the control over it because it's in another country's territories, national sovereignty, and political independence, and, two, it's a gamble in terms of what do you do with the middle classes of the of the hundreds of thousands of saudi arabians that you created. saudi arabia has the two largest dairy farms. one of them has 17,000 milk cows

and one right beside it has 13,000 milk cows. so these are questions that have implications once you get to the implementation area. but it's tanzania, uganda and sudan. these are the areas. and not just the dccc countries. there are other countries are investing in those four as an effort to try to have food supplies nearer and cheaper both in terms of labor as well as the end-user cost. was there a third one on that? >> let me ask a third one that will be -- we'll ask a question that will also i hope open up for your wrap-up statement as well, dr. anthony and that is what specific actions would the dccc states wish to see from the obama administration to begin actualizing the promises of the president's cairo speech and his other initiatives toward the arab and the islamic worlds? >> well, in the communique, the

one that was implicitly if not explicitly directed in that area was to end the siege of gaza. and the siege in international law is seen as an act of war and the siege has been going on for 2 1/2 years. and not a single dwelling that was bombed to smithereens last january has been rebuilt. is it's own testimony of people's concern that why cannot the united states at least get an exemption from the israeli government to american goods going in to gaza? they have no answer for that. and they would ask an outsider what is the answer for that? those who are graduates in political science international relations and the like or american studies are prone to say we understand that all politics are local. and that the president came to the white house at a time of severe national as well as international economic crisis, financial crisis, credit crisis, liquidity crisis. and he has to get america's

economic material house in order before he can do any of these other things there. and on the healthcare issue in particular, but also jobs creation, they're willing to cut a significant slack there. but at the same time, they think that the israeli policies are in the short term and the long term self-defeating. that gaza has become in many people's views an open air prison. it's not as the west bank to use the phrase that people do not live by bread alone but by many things, people do not always die at once. sometimes they die from this brick, this cut, this slice, this humiliation, this wound, this injury. until the father or the mother says to the children, pack up your suitcase and we're leaving for the children and the grandchildren. we just can't take it anymore. that happens in the west bank.

these people become faceless statistics. they don't show up on anybody's radar screen but in gaza you can't even get out. let alone get in. and so the palestinian people are usually very resourceful and resilient. were they allowed to leave, they would make their way, many of them, to other areas a as those before them did. but if there's no release, if there's no escape, your building up a powder keg which is bound to explode repeatedly and you have no one to blame but yourself. so they fail to see why the u.s. at a minimum won't stand for this humanitarian issue especially when the american school was bombed in gaza. by the israelis. and especially the u.n. institutions. we have a friend who heads one of the u.n. agencies and he said, anticipating this, we gave the israelis their coordinates so that they wouldn't make a mistake. that was the wrong thing for us

to do. because we took it a flat bullseye. >> well, ladies and gentlemen, we will wrap up this afternoon's presentation. dr. anthony, any final word beyond that? okay. i'd like to thank you all for being here and ask you, if you would, please, if you haven't had the opportunity on the way in, if you'd leave us is business card so that we can continue to inform you of the national council's programming and let you know when our next activities will be scheduled. also to let you know that all of our activities, both those in the past and those upcoming are listed on our website, www.n c-usa r.org. we have transcripts of a program

we did 10 days ago on capitol hill dealing in great detail with yemen. all of materials from our october arab u.s. policymakers conference are up on our website as well as information about all of the council's other programs. also we want to thank c-span for being here today to tape this program. and i'm told it will be rebroadcast this evening at some point and perhaps in the we small hours in the morning as well. so we hope that you might take a chance or let others know also a video of the conference of this presence this afternoon will be up on our went in short order. please allow us is bit of leeway for the holiday season and the fact our staff wishes no more to be in the office than your staff wishes to be in the office at the holidays. with that, holiday greetings to

all. thank you for being here and i'm sure if you have further questions, dr. anthony would be more than happy to stay afterwards to speak with you. thank you, dr. anthony. [applause] >> and again, thank you to russell and wilke, farr and gallagher for their facilities. >> c-span, christmas day, a look ahead to 2010 politics including republican congressman eric

cantor and nbc's david gregory, buzz algren and fellow astronauts and the role of muslim americans in the world, later, a former cia intelligence officer on u.s. strategy against al-qaeda and afghanistan and starting at 8:00 pm eastern remembering the lives of william f. buckley, jr. and senator ted kennedy. >> now a senate hearing on the backlog of dna evidence collected for unsolved rape cases. tens of thousands of so-called rape kits across the country have not been tested. we'll hear about the justice for survivors of sexual assault act which provides incentives to local law enforcement agencies to process rape kits. patrick leahy of vermont chairs the judiciary committee. this is an hour and 45 minutes. ...

>> now we're going to examine some disturbing reports that despite the important progress we've made to insure justice for rape victims, in too many jurisdictions large numbers of kits continue to sit untested. when dna evidence taken from rape victims that could be used to convict criminals, our communities become more dangerous.

that's unacceptable, and we have to fix that problem. since we passed this important law in 2004, the act has resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars going to states for the testing of dna samples to reduce backlogs. and i've worked with senators of both parties to insure full funding for the debbie smith act each year, and i compliment those senators in both parties who have joined with me to get that funding. of course, i welcome debbie smith and her husband to the committee once again. she lived in fear for years after being attacked before her kit was tested, and her perpetrator was caught. debbie and her husband rob have worked tirelessly to insure that others need not experience her ordeal. on a personal basis, let me just mention, debbie, you and rob and i have talked so many times. i'll say again, thank you for being here.

rob, thank you. for being here. the two of you are in my orbit of friends i put you right there right at the very first line and two people i admire greatly. the research problem of untested rape kit cans is one thing i've heard again and again. debbie smith program is working, it's made tremendous gains across the country. i've heard from the justice justice department, the states and law enforcement, victims' advocates the debbie smith grants have led to significant, meaningful backlog reductions in jurisdictions across the country. the directer of the vermont forensic laboratory described to me how federal funding for

testing in a case management position has resulted in a reduction of all backlogs in vermont and the efficient use of dna evidence to solve cases. i hope our little state of vermont will be an example for other jurisdictions. i also note that eric was very clear in saying that vermont's success would not be possible without the federal funding through the debbie smith program. now, having said all that it's clear we would not be here today if the there were still not a problem. despite the good strides we've made and the the significant federal funding for backlog reduction, we've seen a lot of -- alarming reports of continued backlogs. the study last year found 1,250 untested rape kits in los angeles alone. other cities have now reported backlogs almost as severe. the justice department released a report finding that 18% of

open unsolved rape cases evidence had not even been submitted to a crime lab. the justice department is one key component of this problem. no matter how much money we send to crime labs for testing, samples that sit on the test the in police evidence rooms that never make it to the lab, the money does no good. police officers have to understand the importance of testing this vital evidence, they must learn when testing is appropriate and necessary. in too many jurisdictions, victims go through the hardship to take these samples. rape kits that could help get criminals off the street are just sitting there untested. that's unacceptable in any jurisdiction. in another way the backlog problems in some jurisdictions show we're the victims of our own success. the effectiveness of dna testimony.

substantial funding for testing have led to more and more samples and cases being sent to forensic labs, labs and law enforcement also face difficult questions of priorities when there are limited resources. so we're beginning to learn of possible solutions to these different dynamics. it must be national standards and protocols, best practices giving clear guidance to police officers about when kits and other relevant is dna should go to labs. every jurisdiction must have real incentives to provide comprehensive training and put into place these standards for the officers who handle dna evidence. we have to insure good communication, compatible technology among labs and prosecutors and law enforcement. we also should re-examine regulations, require that samples sent out to good private laboratories then be retested in government laboratories. it costs time and money and

slows our ability to reduce backlogs. i thank senator klobuchar, also a former prosecutor, for her help in putting these hearing together and her leadership on this issue. as well as many other committee members on both sides of the aisle committed to fixing this. senator kyl from arizona worked closely with me to get the debbie smith act passed. now, let's get to the bottom of the problem, we can solve that. there's no question in my mind we can solve it, there's no question in my mind we will solve it. we will. senator sessions. >> thank you, chairman leahy. i am firmly of the view that we are not as a nation investing enough money in the kind of forensic evidence gathering capabilities that can help us reach the best way to fight

crime, particularly crime like rape which tends to be repetitive, people tend to be repeat offenders, and i really believe we should do a lot more about that. i am not happy, frankly, with our state and local governments. it's always been frustrating to me that we do, have increases in law enforcement, but not enough for our forensics. and it's not just dna. i mean, there's fingerprints, there's forensics for the guns and firearm cases and all kinds of other scientific evidence that often backlogged leaving cases unsolved and not going forward. even simple drug analysis cases that often delay prosecutions for months, many months simply waiting on a chemist report to determine the substance, the individual had was illegal. so i guess, mr. chairman, i

really think that we're on to something that's important. i'd like, i also believe the department of justice should be taking the lead in studying dna and how it could be better applied just as you said, what kind of protocols, best practices should be out there, what kind of new techniques are developing now in dna that can make, help local officials identify repeat criminals much earlier in their processes and stop victimization and actually reduce crime. so i think there are a lot of things we need to do. i don't think that this federal government should be bearing the responsibility of paying for every rape kit in america. it just doesn't strike me as a smart thing. so we need to be figuring a way to get our local law enforcement up to where they need to be. and if we can help, though,

creating the database, the infrastructure, the protocols, the research, that would be our first choice. and i have supported and will continue to support additional federal resources to accelerate and improve our state and local forensics capability. i think that's an important matter. i look forward to this excellent panel. thank you. >> thank you very much. we begin with debbie smith who's been a leading national advocate for the elimination of rape kit testing backlogs, and she was kidnapped and raped near her home in 1989. more than six years later her assailant was finally caught and linked to the crime through use of dna evidence. she's worked tirelessly along with her husband rob to raise the problem of rape kit testing

backlogs. she's lent her name to the debbie smith rape kit backlog reduction act b which passed as part of the justice for all act of 2004. i remember that phone call i made to you. i think i caught you in an airport or somewhere to tell you the good news, and as i recall the both of us were pretty emotional on that phone call. it was reauthorized in 2008, and if you'd, please, go ahead, and then i'm going to ask senator klobuchar to introduce the next witness. please, go ahead. >> let me say how honored i am to have been included in this panel before you today. as a surviving victim of sexual assault, i understand the great importance of the work to be done. i don't bring any kind of professional perspective to this table seated with some of the top professionals in their field, but what i can offer you is firsthand knowledge of the importance of timely testing of dna evidence and the elimination

of the current backlog of both suspect and offender, suspect and victim kits. for the next few minutes, i would like to ask each of you to remove your political hats, and i would like to ask you to take your place as a husband, father, or brother or as a mother, sister, or friend. you've just received the news that your loved one was abducted from her home, taken to the woods where she was robbed and raped. he entered her home in the middle of the afternoon through a door that was left unlocked for a matter of moments. this masked man repeatedly said that he would return and kill her if she told anyone. she believes him. she cries hysterically pleading with you not to call the police, but in your heart you know that it's the right thing to do. you call the police, and your loved one sits in shock as she's asked countless questions. your heart is breaking as you watch her try to hold on to her sanity, watching her try to struggle and make sense out of what has just changed her life

so completely hurts beyond measure. you feel helpless, wanting to take away the pain that is just so very evident in her eyes. within your heart and mind, a search begins because surely there has to be something that you can do the to make it better or somehow easier, but you find that that search is in vain. you convince her now that she needs to go to the hospital to have the only physical evidence taken. this person that you love is begging you not to make her go, but you know that you have to deny these pleas just as you denied her cries not to call the police. your prayer is that you're helping her to do the things that she would do, make the right decisions, ones that she would make herself if only she could. it's what you've been taught is the right thing to do, the next step. as the two of you walk into the hospital, you try to make her understand that this really is necessary, it's the only way that we can catch this man and

prevent him from hurting anyone else. she walks like a frightened child, terrified and confused. she hears you tell the receptionist that she was raped. no, it just can't be true. rape just doesn't happen to people like me. the nurse then leads the two of you to a room where the questions begin all over again, questions, questions, and still more questions. you begin to wonder if you really have helped her to do the right thing after all. the look in her eyes conveys the sheer desperation she's feeling needing to know that someone is on her side, that someone truly believes her. but her nightmare continues as she's asked to lie down on the table, to put her feet in the stiff runs and spread her legs. a male doctor begins by probing, plucking, scraping and swapping her just hours after having been attacked by another man. her face reveals her humiliation, she is crushed and feeling even more vulnerable.

what was left of her self-esteem has now completely vanished from her limp body. simply put, she's been violated all over again. you only hope that one day this very procedure will bring justice. as you leave the hospital, you trust things are going to be better now, but it doesn't take long before the vacant stares give away that she has been robbed of any joy in life. her fear is very apparent as you watch her struggle to leave her house or to even allow the children out of her sight as her rapist's threats will not leave her mind. remember, i know where you live, and i will come back to kill you if you tell anyone. because you know her so very well, you fear that one day you will find that she has taken her own life. all she wants is her freedom, peace of mind. she wants to feel safe. she wants justice, but she waits. my husband and i lived this nightmare. when a rape victim submits to this very intrusive four-hour evidence collection process, she

at least knows that she's done her part. she's done everything that has been asked of her to keep this man from hurting anyone else. unfortunately, there's a very good chance that this vital evidence will sit on a shelf with thousands of other kits, each box holds within it vital evidence that is crucial to the safety of women everywhere. statistics prove that the average rapist will rape 8-12 times before he is caught. how many of these rapes could be prevented? i merely existed for six-and-a-half years waiting for my rapist to be identified, trying my best to deafen the sound of his voice in my ears, but fear for my family and myself held my heart and soul within its grip. i became suicidal seeking peace and rest from the pictures that played in my mind constantly. but finally, dna revealed the identity of my rapist giving me the sweet breath of validation

and promised justice. i want every victim of sexual assault to experience this gift of renewed life, and i am here today on behalf of those thousands of victims whose cases continue to sit on those shelves. i am here for those future victims and for those who sit in a prison cell who have been wrongly accused. i speak today for victims like amy who was attacked in 199 #. she had no hope that her rapist would be identified because the rape kit collected yielded very little dna evidence. amy tried to find peace, but her memory -- from her memories through therapy, antidepressants and alcohol. by 2004, though, dna technology had changed. her evidence was retested and revealed the dna profile of her attacker and has linked him to at least two other cases. amy says in her own words, today i have hope. he still haunts me, i still have fear, but i also have hope and a

new purpose. i'm also here for those who can no longer speak for themselves. a lab scientist in florida related the story of a rape victim who waited until she could no longer wait anymore. this was evidently a case that had been worked, they had worked on for some time for the day that a dna match was made, the scientist went to deliver the news in person to the detective working the case. the detective looked at her with a very solemn face and said, that's great news, but the victim committed suicide last night. unfortunately, this is not an isolated case. it's now time that i would ask you to put your political hats back on because by doing this, it empowers you with the ability to make a real difference. it is within your capacity as a legislator to make sure that these kits are taken off the shelf and reviewed as to ascertain if there is any viable forensic evidence within. can you imagine going through this horrible examination only to have the results sit behind

locked doors? when someone is robbed, everything possible is done to find this person who has taken what doesn't long to them. prosecution is pursued and the guilty is made to return are what was stolen to its rightful owner. but you are powerless today to return to a rape victim what was taken from her because you can't restore her dignity, her innocence or her peace of mind. you can't remove those pictures from her mind that appear without warning, you just can't. but you can give her justice by making her rapist pay for his crime. lady liberty stands proudly in the new york harbor offering freedom for all within our borders, equal justice under law is etched in stone across our supreme court building and our flags are raised high symbolic of our pledge of liberty and justice for all. sexual assault victims across our country wait for that pledged freedom from the fears, from the chain of fear and guilt

her attacker would have con trained her. she anticipates the promised justice to be imparted for the crime committed against her. i asked ask that you use your po award her what is promised to all americans, liberty and justice for all. thank you. >> i think, ms. smith or debbie, because i've gotten to know you and rob so well, i think listening to your testimony i think people can understand why when i called you a few minutes after we passed the bill, why that was such an emotional phone call. for both of us. i thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> and, rob, i thank you too. senator klobuchar, the next witness is someone you know

well. could i ask you to, please, introduce him. >> thank you so much, mr. chairman, and thank you, ms. smith, for that moving story and your courage not only for telling your own story, but also for being the voice for so many victims out there. and on behalf of senator franken and myself, we welcome steve the redding who is our next witness and a minnesotan the. when i became henny pin county attorney, i came in there from the outside without a lot of criminal experience, and i wanted to put someone in charge of the violent crimes division that had the trust of the people in the office, and that was steve redding. he's served well in that role, but most importantly for our hearing today, he is one of the national experts on dna. and this means not only being a tough, smart trial lawyer and being able to convince a jury like so many good prosecutors do, it also means having the willingness and the determination and the intellect

to learn the science of dna which is not that easy for so many lawyers to dig in and read all those scientific articles because we have to be as sophisticated as a science and the people on the other side. and he's someone -- his wife suzanne is here as well -- who believes, mr. chairman, that you can use this newfound science not only to convict b the guilty, but also to protect the innocent. steve redding. >> my name is steve redding, and i'm a southeastern assistant the county attorney in minnesota. i supervise the sexual assault unit in our office, the county encompasses minneapolis and 45 surrounding suburbs. our office serves approximately 1.1 million people. i want to thank the members of the the judiciary committee for inviting me here, i especially want to thank senator klobuchar, of course, who as you all know was the county attorney for eight years.

she fully understood the power of dna testing to protect women and children and to assist prosecutors like myself in carrying out our duty to convict the guilty and to protect the innocent. i also want to thank mike freeman, my present boss, he's the county attorney for his unwavering support in dna issues both now and for the 8 years that he was county attorney prior to senator klobuchar's election. dna testing has solved many cold cases in the united states. i had the good fortune to prosecute the first two in 1992 and '93. one was the rape/homicide of a recent college graduate, the second was a sexual assault of a young woman by a serial rapist. neither of those men, i'm happy to say, will ever be released from prison. these successes were not the result of anything special that i did, but rather the foresight of the minnesota state legislature which began funding the bureau of criminal apprehensions dna lab in the

late 1980s. it's an excellent dna testing lab and a pioneer in dna testing practices. as a recent cbs news special documented, there are a large number of untested sexual assault kits and disparities between labs in their ability to process dna kits. while it should be remembered that this issue is not as severe as it might seem at first blush, many stranger rape kits remain untested. approximately two-and-a-half years ago we were able to obtain a list of 99 cases where the victim reported she was raped by a stranger. from those 99 i identified 33 where the kit had not been tested and that it appeared that if dna testing was to identify a suspect, a prosecution might be possible. the results were as follows: in seven of those cases, there was not sufficient amount of biological material to test the. thirteen of those cases produced john doe profiles.

thirteen produced a hit, ten of those hits were to convicted offenders with previous sex histories, three without. of those 13, three have been convicted, five have been charged by my office. in two cases we are still looking for the victim, one is still under investigation, and two of those cases turned out the dna was from a consensual partner. these results clearly demonstrate how fruitful it can be to test this group of cases and this type of case. additional grant funding similar to the project that i am working on now can yield similar results. one year ago it became mandatory in minneapolis to test all cases where the victim has identified her perpetrator and indicated that he was, in fact, a stranger. we need more training for police, for evidence gatherers and prosecutors. years ago prosecutors with dna experience provided training to

inexperienced prosecutors. that training was crucial. however, it -- in most cases -- is no longer available. in sexual assault cases, evidence collection is most often performed these day cans by a specially-trained nurse. perpetrators know about dna, and they're taking steps to avoid leaving it at a crime scene. one rapest ejaculated in the woman's pants. she yelled for him to bring her pants back, his response? i'm taking these for dna purposes. he thought that he had taken the only evidence which could tie him to the sexual assault he had just committed. however, the nurse who was taking the evidence from her in a careful interview revealed that he had talked on her cell phone. she obtained her cell phone, she swabbed the receiver of the cell phone. that dna profile was entered into the convicted offender database, and it hit to this man.

her training and innovation made that arrest possible. he is charged, and he's awaiting trial. for similar reasons, police and training, police and prosecutor training would enhance investigations. there needs to be more cooperation between police and prosecutors. if there's anything i've learned in my 32 years as a prosecutor, it is that when police and prosecutors work together the, we improve outcomes significantly. teamwork on cold cases is especially crucial. in many places a road block exists to this cooperation, and i have detailed what that is in my submissions and suggested solutions to overcome it. the crime-solving ability of our national databases is amazing. in september of 1989, a young woman was stabbed to death in south min lap lis. police sergeant barbara moe found evidence, and that was submitted for dna test thing.

that evidence hit to a man whose only felony conviction was for drunk driving. senator klobuchar was largely responsible for the minnesota law which made repeat drunk driving offenses a felony. i charged that man, and he is now doing 25 years in prison for a crime that never would have been solved but for the fact that he was placed into the convicted offender database. this is a magnificent example where the law of unintended consequences led to a terrific outcome. i am fortunate to have been a part of this revolution in dna evidence. i have made several observations and suggestions in my written submissions to the committee. i believe the use of dna typing to identify rapists can be further enhanced and additional rapists can be brought to justice. i outline in my submissions a number of areas that i think could help this. i want to thank you for inviting me to testify before you today, and i look forward to continuing my work on maximizing the use of dna technology in this area.

>> thank you, thank you very much, mr. redding, and our next witness, susan smith howly, she's been directer of public policy for the national center of victims of crime since 1999, is that correct? she joined the or the in '91, served as directer of victim services from 2002-2005. she's written and spoken extensively on policy issues affecting victims of crime. recently served on the national advisory committee of violence against women. i have a note that she received her law degree from georgetown university law center. some of us on this committee, of course, find that -- never mind. [laughter] we actually have two of us on this committee, one other besides myself, who graduated from georgetown, that'd be senator durbin. please, go ahead.

>> thank you, chairman leahy. good morning, chairman, ranking member sessions and other members of the committee. again, i'm public policy directer of the national center for victims of crime which is a national nonprofit resource and advocacy organization. we'll soon sell rate our 25th year of championing the rights and interests of victims of crime. our members include victim service providers and allied professionals at the state, federal, and local levels. we have a long history of advocating for sexual assault victims and working to promote the the use and understanding of dna evidence, and i appreciate the opportunity to appear before you this morning. sexual assault victims call our national crime victim help line every day when they can't find the help or information they need at the local level. they remind us, as debbie smith did this morning, that undergoing a rape exam can be intrusive, violating, exhausting and confusing, especially when it's not conducted by a

specially-trained sexual assault nurse examiner. once the exam is complete, victims often have no idea what happens to the rape kit. many mistakenly assume that every kit is sent to the lab immediately so they're very confused as to why they can't get information about their case. if they later learn that the kit was never sent to the lab and no one tells them why, they become very upset and discouraged. victims whose kits are lost or destroyed before processing are especially angry. one recent caller spoke at length about her frustration that after she had done all she could to promote the investigation, no one else seemed to care about bringing the offender to justice. another recent caller was outraged that rape kits from her offender's previous victims had languished for years without being tested. she is ready to sue state and local officials because she's convinced that if those kits had been processed, her rapist would have been caught, and she would

never have become a victim. our members confirm what we hear from victims, that many jurisdictions are not processing all appropriate rape kits and that there are substantial delays in many jurisdictions around the country. now, moving forward we would like to appear today to offer a clear policy solution to the rape kit backlog, but before we can do can that, we need more information. we need to know more about whether the problem is a lack of understanding about the investigative power of dna evidence or a lack of funding to process evidence or a lack of will to investigate and prosecute more sexual assault cases. each of those barriers would call for a different policy solution. we also need to know if there's any benefit from testing every rape kit, even if the identity of the defendant is not at issue. some jurisdictions have cleared or are in the process of clearing their rape kit backlogs by doing just that, testing

every kit. their experience could give us the information to know whether that's our path forward. but at this point we are reluctant to recommend that every kit be tested. if a defendant admits to the sexual conduct but claims consent, there may be no evidentiary value in processing the kit. after all, if he is later convicted, his dna will be captured and submitted into the database. because our capacity to process dna and other forensic evidence is limited, to require testing of every sexual assault kit even those unlikely to result in probative evidence will inevitably reduce or delay testing in other types of cases. many victims of other crime also have a compelling interest in the prompt testing of forensic evidence. forensic dna testing could help close many open homicide cases, burglary victims can men --

benefit from the use. families of missing persons could benefit. until our capacity for dna testing grows, any prioritization of a class of cases should be crafted carefully. in the meantime, there's much congress can do to improve the treatment of rape victims as forensic evidence is gathered and processed. first, congress could provide additional support for sexual assault nurse examiners to insure compassionate treatment and preservation of evidence. we also recommend the creation of a sexual assault victims dna bill of rights such as california has that gives rape victims the right to know whether their rape kit has been processed and whether an assailant has been identified. we also urge you to support increased public awareness that sexual assault victims have the right to a free forensic exam even if they have not yet made the decision whether to report the crime. victims typically learn about

the forensic exam from the police or the rape crisis center, but only a fraction of victims will report to the police, and many victims delay calling the rape crisis center until it's too late to capture that forensic evidence. we applaud this committee for its repeated efforts to bring justice to sexual assault victims and other victims of crime and to senator franken for bringing attention to this important issue. the the national center for victims of crime looks forward to working with you in crafting legislation to advance the use of dna evidence, reduce the backlog of rape kits and bring a just response to victims of crime. thank you. >> thank you very much. chairman leahy stepped out briefly, so i have the honor to introduce stephanie. she's the commander of the miami-dade police crime laboratory bureau. as head of the lab, she oversees forensic labs that test control substances, trace evidence,

biological evidences, firearms. she's a nationally-recognized leader and has lectured the american prosecutors research institute, the national institute of justice, and the international association chiefs of police. she has also taught as an adjunct professor of forensic biology at florida international university and is a current board member of the american society of crime laboratory directors. she received her masters from florida international university. stephanie. >> good morning. i would say, mr. chairman, members of the committee, as stated my name is stephanie stoilo,ff, and i am responsible for the managing operation of a full-service laboratory. in addition to my duties as crime laboratory directer, i also sit on the board of the american society of crime

laboratory directors which represents the interests of over 500 crime laboratory directors throughout the united states and overseas and play an active role in insuring the quality, integrity and credibility of forensic laboratories. i appreciate the opportunity to testify before your committee today, and i'm honored to be asked to speak to you about insuring the effective use of dna evidence to solve rape cases nationwide. the role is twofold, to provide investigative leads in order to remove dangerous offenders from the streets or exonerate an innocent suspect, and to provide the results and interpretations resulting from these investigations in a court of law. at the end of the day, there are more cases than can be worked. cases must be prioritized. generally speaking, when faced with a decision on how to prioritize these case, the highest priority is given to those cases in which the subject is the greatest threat to society. crime laboratories are faced with insufficient personnel, facilities, equipment, training and funding to meet the service

needs and expectations of investigators, courts and citizens. forensic science has become an increasingly critical component of a successful investigation and prosecution of criminal cases. in addition to dna, crime laboratories also provide scientific analysis in areas such as controlled substances, firearms, latent prints and trace evidence. it is estimated that non-dna areas comprise a significant backlog and the timely disposition of cases is impacted by a lack of funding to support the staffing, equipment, training and facility needs of forensic laboratories nationwide. as a result of the glam orization of forensic science on television, dna requests are made was the jury expects the evidence to be tested. there are many, many requests when the identity of the subject is not in question. if identity is not in question, why drain precious laboratory

resources? television drama is just that, a dramatization of fictitious events and capabilities. in a perfect world with unlimited resources including staffing, space and supplies, every lab could analyze every sample from every case. however, the the reality is quite different. there are resources issued nationwide that preclude the analysis of every item and every case. each case is evaluated separately, and each case is different. for example, if a consensual sex case is submitted for analysis with an underage female and her adult boyfriend, should this receive the same level of investigation as a stranger rape? we clearly understand the value of analyzing sexual assault evidence. this does not mean a case would never be analyzed, but the prioritization is necessarily different. if crime laboratories were to examine every case as they are submitted, then other cases would go unexamined. the primary challenge that faces crime laboratories, backlogs

exist. there is no single explanation that defines what makes up a backlog. is it cases in house that have not been opened? cases in progress but not yet complete? crime laboratories can only manage the cases that they know about. in our experience, a written prioritization policy allows the miami-dade police department to triage the analysis of case cans. this translates to a constant repriorization to meet the needs of the judicial system. this juggling is not performed in an arbitrary manner. there are defined priorities for all cases that enter a crime laboratory. incoming priorities are the violent crimes. the question is then posed as to why valuable resources are spent on dna analysis of property crimes. data collected by the florida department of law enforcement revealed that 52% of violent offenders had a burglary in their past. the idea here is prevention. the earlier these offenders are removed from society, the less

opportunity they have to progress to violent crimes. cold case violent crimes are also important, and congress has repeatedly allocated funding to use current technological advances to re-examine cold cases. the miami-dade police department has actively pursued federal funding and has successfully obtained over $1.1 million to re-examine cold case violent crimes. of the first 100 reviewed and submit today the laboratory, 68 dna profiled were uploaded. 32 hits were made in cases where all other leads had been exhausted. training is an essential component from the collection and submission of evidence to the analysis, reporting and testimony. the miami-dade police department crime laboratory bureau provides training to investigators, attorneys and judges. publications of guidelines and what every law enforcement officer should know about dna, explain the importance of dna

evidence. this information should be common knowledge among law enforcement and criminal justice personnel. training curricula for every law enforcement recruit should include as a matter of routine procedures for the proper collection and storage of dna evidence. the management of casework submitted is not only a law enforcement problem, it is an issue that must be addressed within the entire judicial system. submission of every case to the crime laboratory with the expectation that every case can be worked is unrealistic. every case needs to be evaluated separately, and not every case needs to be analyzed. crime laboratories do not have the resources to evaluate every case or every sample. the answer does not lie in the hands of the criminalists across the country who analyze these cases on a daily basis. the responsibility for case management lies in the hands of the entire judicial system. if cases are not going to be prosecuted, why expend the law enforcement and laboratory resources? the efforts should focus on how

to produce results in a timely manner for cases where forensic science can provide critical investigative information. there is no effective one size fits all approach to case management. this is an ever-changing repriorization that must be fluid to meet the hands of the judicial system. i appreciate the opportunity to appear before this committee today. thank you. >> thank you very much. our last witness is jan sepich, she's a leading national advocate for testing, since the tragedy of her daughter being raped and murder z as a graduate student in new mexico. she founded dna saves, a nonprofit organization devoted to the pass only after -- passage of testing laws across the country.

her work has been featured on anderson cooper 360, america's most wanted, she's been honored by governor bill richardson as outstanding new mexico woman of 2007, inducted into the new mexico women's hall of fame. notwithstanding all the honors you've received, i'm sure you wish the reason was not there. but thank you for what you have done, and we look forward to your testimony. >> chairman leahy and members of the committee, my name is jayann, and i so greatly appreciate the opportunity to speak to you today about the very important issue of forensic dna testing and the related backlogs. i'm here as the mother of a murdered daughter, and i'm also here representing the surviving parents coalition. the surviving parents coalition are parents of children who have been murdered or abducted and sexually assaulted, and as a group we fight for laws that

will help protect our children and young people. forensic dna is vital to solving crimes against children, particularly as children are often not able to put into words those crimes that were committed against them. so as such, dna is a legislative priority for the coalition. in august of 2003, my beloved daughter, katie, was a vivacious, joyful, loving graduate student at new mexico state university. she was attack thed just outside of her home in a supposedly very safe neighborhood. she was brutally raped, sodomized, strangled, set on fire, and her body left in an abandoned dump site. i have no doubt it is never easy for any parent to bury their child, but the horror and the pain of losing katie in this violent manner is beyond description. there were no strong suspects in

katie's murder, but katie fought so hard for her life that she had the skin and blood of her attacker underneath her fingernails which contained his dna. i know now how lucky we were that katie's murder was such a high profile case because the district attorney of our county didn't want to send that dna sample to our crime lab because our backlog there was about a year. so she used her own precious budget to outsource it to a private dna lab. that profile was sent to the national dna database, and i cannot describe to you what bright hope this gave our family. because we knew, we knew who had killed our daughter. we had his unique dna profile. all we had to find was a match on the offender database. there are so many families across this country that also have this bright hope, but there

are so many more who are waiting, waiting. and it pains me to think of those thousands of rape kits that are sitting on shelves around this country because when i think of those rape kits, i don't think of evidence. i see faces. i see faces like that of my daughter, katie, and i feel the pain of the mothers who have buried their daughters and are waiting for justice. and they deserve justice. they deserve to have evidence in their cases tested, analyzed and uploaded pause without testing -- because without testing, there may be no hope for justice. and without justice, these monsters remain free on our streets to victimize again and again, to rape again, to murder again, to cause this pain again. this is unconscionable. when i learned of the dna evidence in katie's case, i

said, this man was such a monster that, surely, he'll commit another crime, he'll be arrested for something else, they'll take his dna, we'll know who he is, we'll stop him from killing again. and that's when i learned that while every state takes fingerprints from individuals arrested for crimes, most states at that time did not allow for dna to be taken upon felony arrest. i was stunned. we do not allow our law enforcement to check the dna database for a possible match before allowing people accused of the most heinous crimes in our society, murder and rape, to be released on bail. we don't even bother to check the database. we just release them. that's when i began to research and study the issue of taking dna upon arrest. based on my research, i became a national advocate for taking dna upon felony arrest, and my husband and i founded dna saves which is a nonprofit association

that advocates for dna laws nationwide. we know we can't bring katie back, but we can work to change laws so that we may be able to prevent this horrible pain from being visited upon other parents. in 2006 we fought for katie's law in the state of new mexico. it's a law that requires that dna be taken upon felony arrest. it went into effect january 1 at midnight, 2007. since that date, the database has registered 86 individual arrestee dna profiles. that's in less than three years in a state with a total population of right at two million people. one hour and 14 minutes after this law went effect in new mexico, the first arrestee was swabbed in the county detention center. it matched a double homicide. that man, james, has since been

convicted of murdering these two women. just three months after katie was murdered, a man named gabriel was arrested on an aggravateed burglary charge for breaking into the home of two young women. we didn't have katie's law in new mexico at that time, so his dna was not taken. it was over three years later that he was finally convicted of burglary, incarcerated, and his dna was taken. and that dna matched the dna that katie fought so hard to provide as she was being murdered. he subsequently confessed, pled guilty and will spend the rest of his life in prison. if new mexico had required a dna sample for felony arrest in november of 2003, katie's murder would have been solved three year years sooner. three years that her family prayed for justice and waited to know that this killer was off

the streets. and i have to tell you that during that time i've been told by the dona ana county district attorney that over $200,000 was spent investigating her murder. but more importantly, this man would have been in custody three years sooner unable to victimize other young women. but we cannot consider one side of the database because it has two sides, the offender dna database and also the evidence. without a strong dna database of offenders and arrestees, we will limit the possibility of matches that can be made, and conversely, without testing of the evidence, without uploading the evidence in a timely manner, we limit the matches that can be made. in the past six years, i have come to meet so many families who have lost their daughters as i have, so many families who

have had their children abducted and sexually assaulted, and a great number of rape victims. we owe it to these people to have their evidence test inside a timely manner. but more importantly, we owe it to our country, to our citizens to stop these in their tracks before they rape and murder again and again. we have been given a wonderful scientific tool in dna that is ultimately the truth, and this truth cannot only solve crimes, it can prevent crimes, and in doing so, it can save precious lives and exonerate the innocent. we must do everything we can to make full use of this invaluable scientific tool. to do otherwise is criminal. thank you. >> thank you very much. let me -- and thank you for your

courage in coming here to speak. you and ms. smith put a -- it takes us far from the statistics and brings it to reality. those of us who had the privilege to serve as prosecutors before be we were here in the senate know what a lot of these cases are like, we see the personal side of it. they're not just statistics, there are human faces on crimes, the victims, what it does to families, communities, and what you do, both of you, in speaking out tell all of us what that is, so thank you. i want to ask a question of commander so love and mr. redding. in a recent national institute of justice report found that one

key obstacle to reducing the backlog of rape kits around the country, simply getting that evidence in the police department to the lab. the study recommended additional training of law enforcement personnel, the creation of uniform procedures for submitting evidence as well as improved training for police officers on the benefits and use of forensic analysis. i'll start with you, commander. in your experience what role has training played in educating law enforcement personnel about the importance of dna testing, and how do you -- and how about prioritizing those cases where dna analysis is most useful? >> let me address the first part, or the second part of your question first, priorization. i think it's something that has to occur in order to, as i said in my statement, in order to

remove the offenders that are the greatest threat to society. so if you have a homicide and a sexual assault that come in with a stranger/offender versus a burglary of somebody's car, you know, most citizens, you know, understand burglaries because that's what they, you know, that's what's common to society. however, the greatest threat would be the rapist or the the murderer. so the prioritization is pretty clear in laboratories nationwide. >> should there be a uniform standard nationwide on that? >> as far as -- well, i think there should be a uniform standard as far as all of the offenders that are threatening, yes. i mean, for the violent offenders, absolutely. i think there, i think the all crime laboratory directors at least in my experience and as part of anybody i've ever spoken to understand that those are the highest priority.

i don't think there's any laboratory that prioritizes as of cases submitted. >> what about a national training program, would that be helpful? i mean, because you go from somewhere as large as dade county or hennepin county down to very small jurisdictions which are actually the majority of jurisdictions. >> i'm sorry, sir, your ce is? -- question is? >> well, a national training program on rape kits and dna evidence, would that help? >> well, i think the national training program would certainly help from the perspective of law enforcement in that you have a lot of law enforcement especially as you're saying in small agencies that aren't aware necessarily of what dna can do. so i think that the education and training is on the side of what can we, you know, to know what to collect, to know what to submit. one thing that is very important is that, you know, you have one chance at the crime scene to collect everything. doesn't mean everything is

submitted to the laboratory or analyzed right away, but it does mean it's preserved in the event it needs to be analyzed at a later date. so i do think there should be some kind of training across the, you know, nationwide as far as what the capabilities are. i do think there is a lack of understanding whether you have forgive the expression, but the old school police who believe that investigate should solve every crime and the realization that what physical evidence can actually do to solve a case, i think, is one side of it. and then you have the new recruits as they come in, it should be mandated that they go through some sort of training. >> mr. redding, before my time runs out you see it from the prosecutor's point of view, what do you think of this, having a uniform standard for when the dna gets turned over to the labs, national training?

i mean, are these things helpful, or can you fall into a one size fits all? >> i don't think you could fall into a one size fits all, but i do think some type of national standard or best practices would be something that would be very valuable to law enforcement. even within our county, i've noticed and identify seen significant -- i've seen significant differences between the police departments in what they choose to send to the laboratory and police departments and the people who collect the evidence what they actually collect. and we've done some work to try to bring those standards together so that we have an even policy across our law enforcement agents, agencies in hennepin county. but, yes, i do think that type of training would be helping. i get calls all the time from police officers who simply are not aware of all of the capabilities of dna typing. dna typing has changed drastically in the 20 years that i've been working on it, and so law enforcement needs to

understand that whereas 20 years ago we needed a significantly large sample to get dna from, peanutly, for example -- recently, for example, we obtained dna from a murder victim by simply swapping the area that we believed the perpetrator had grabbed this victim, and the lab was able to swab that area where he had put his hands on her and come up with a dna profile that confirmed who we thought that was. >> my time is up, i want to yield to senator sessions, and then i'm going to turn the gavel over to senator klobuchar. as you may have gathered from some of the press, there are, unfortunately, several things going on here right at the moment. and in case i do not get back, i wanted to thank every one of you for your testimony, how helpful it is even as difficult,

especially for two of you, how difficult it must be to give it. senator sessions. >> thank you. thank all of you for your testimony, and ms. smith and ms. sepich, especially because of the the real-life situations you've given that are so painful. let me ask with regard to ms. smith the seven years you waited there before there was a hit, it strikes me that you have to have a database to check the person against. was that a factor in the delay in getting the identification of the person who assaulted you? >> yes, it was. because with my case all of this was just beginning. so it was kind of playing catch up. so trying to get the database set up and all of that, and so that was -- there was really nobody at fault at the time that my case sat.