from now, do we want to be known as the best broadcast television country or the best mobile broadband country? now, i think as a practical matter i think we can do both, but here is what is almost certainly true. if we don't get more spectrum into the system, we will not be the best mobile broadband country and that's really important for this country to aspire to. >> you seem to be focusing a lot of your time on the commercial spectrum. if you're talking about an efficient use of spectrum and people will say government is not necessarily using their spectrum efficiently. there is plenty of federal agencies sitting on chunks of airwaves and not doing much with t why are you focusing so much on commercial when you have the government sitting right there? >> again, i just have to disagree with the premise. it's absolutely true that the press, in covering us, has focused a lot of time because

the conflict with the broadcasters is fun to write about. we have spent a lot of time working with other government agencies in a much quieter way, trying to figure out again what are market-based incentives that can help drive government officials to a more accurate assessment of spectrum? that is to say, you know, if they're not really using it, then we need to put that into some kind of commercial play as well. it's just that those discussions tend to be quiet, whereas the discussions of the broadcasters tend to be more public. >> so -- but we're spending a lot of money. >> let's say you get the airwaves and use them for broadband. arguably you will auction them off. >> well, i think there is a rule with the licensing and you can't make a decision between how much

you get and who you auction them off to. >> let's go with this premise so if you do auction them off, how do you auction them off in a way thaw just don't allow at&t, verizon to get even more dominant in the u.s. wireless market than they already are? if you look at their spectrums they are so ahead of t-mobile. >> it's a great question. the problem somebody until you know how much you're getting back, it's an irrelevant question. the broadband plan has plenty of questions we need to address. we're dealing with a lot of questions. the questions of the specifics of how the f.c.c. should address spectrum allocation, and again, this is not a problem that is right in front of our face.

this is a problem that we're talking about for 2014, 2015, which means you have to start the process now, but those questions should be addressed when you know what the market conditions are, and how you know how much spectrum you are getting back. >> will we see a plan for public safety issues in spectrum? >> yes. >> last question. >> when might we get more he details about this plan? >> the public safety plan? ought plan in general. >> look, we have been, even our critics have admitted, this is the most open and transparent process of the f.c.c. has ever done. you have never had a process where pretty much every month we have given benchmarks and told people where we are. what the public already knows is that you have essentially a first draft of kind of stating the man, stating where we are, are ways offing thinking about the problem. i suspect that over the course of the month of january, people will hear a more granular

version of ways of thinking about solving the problem, so i think that's where we have to kind of leave it for now. i suspect in january there will be a lot of discussion and february we'll release it. >> february 17 is still a firm date? >> that's the date that congress set and that's the date we man on meeting. >> blair levin, executive director for the f.c.c. f.c.c. and we hope you will come back after february 17 and give us a live update. thank you both. >> thank you. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2009] >> coming up here on c-span, a senate judiciary committee hearing on the backlog of d.n.a. evidence collected for unsolved rape cases. then at 12:20 p.m. eastern, a

former c.i.a. tell intelligence officer on policy in afghanistan and later scholars and former presidential advisors discuss u.s. foreign policy. in the mid '90's, newsweek named

omar wasow as the one to watch for cyberspace. he has explained new technologies on oprah. sunday night he talks about his current studies at harvard and what's ahead on c-span's "q&a". tomorrow on "news makers" national institutes of health director dr. francis collins on the latest developments in stem cell research, the future of genome technology and how nih may be affected by the healthcare bill making its way through congress. dr. collins interviewed by reporters from usa today and cq weekly.com. it airs at 6:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m. eastern on c-span.

>> good morning, everyone. today the judiciary committee is holding a second hearing on real authorize ition on the groundbreaking justice for all act, and the justice for all act includes the debbie smith rape kit reduction act, authorizing significant funding to reduce the backlog of untested rape kits so victims do not have to live in fear and we have seen this happening around the country. now we're going to examine some disturbing reports that despite the important progress we've made tone sure justice for rape

victims, in too many jurisdictions, large numbers of kits continue to sit untested. when d.n.a. evidence taken from rape victims can be iewbsed to find and convict criminals and instead it sits on a shelf and rape victims are victimized once again and our communities become more dangerous rather than safer. that's unacceptable and we have to fix that problem. since we passed this law in 2004, it has resulted in hundreds of millions of dollars to states to reduce quack logs and i have worked with senators on both parties to ensure that full funding for the debbie smith act each year and i compliment those senators in both parties who joined with me to get that funding. of course, i welcome debbie smith and her husband to the committee once again.

she lived in fear for years after being attacked before her kit was tested and her perpetrator was caught. debbie and her husband rob worked tirelessly to ensure that others need not experience her ordeal. on a personal basis, we just mentioned, debbie, you and rob, and i have talked so many times and i will say it again, thank you for being here. rob, thank you for being here. the two of you are, in my orbit of friends, i put you right there right at the very first line and two people i admire greatly. the remuch of these untested rape kits is something i have heard again which is a great comfort to all of us here.

the debbie smith program is working its way to tremendous gains across the country. i have heard from the justice department, the states, the law enforcement and victims advocates that debbie smith brands have led to significant meaningful backlog reductions across the country. eric buhl, the director of the vermont forensic laboratory described to me how federal funding for the case management physicians has resulted in the elimination of all backlogs in vermont to check d.n.a. evidence to solve cases. i hope the state of vermont will be an example for other jurisdictions. i will also note that eric was y clear in saying that vermont's success would not be possible without the federal funding through the debbie smith program. having said all that, it's clear we would not be here today, though it is still not a problem. despite the good strides made,

and the significant federal funding for backlog reduction we have seen alarmingly reports. a study last year found 12,500 untested rape kits in the los angeles area alone. while los angeles has since made progress in addressing the problem, other cities are reporting backlogs almost as severe. the justice department released a report last month finding that 18% of open unsolved rape cases evidence had not even been submitted to a crime lab. the justice department goes to one key component of this problem. no matter how much money we send to crime labs for testing, samples can help solve cases sit on the shelf in police evidence rooms and never make it to the lab and & it does no good. police officers have to understand the importance of testing this vital evidence. they must learn when testing is appropriate and necessary.

in too many jurisdictions, rape victims go through a further hardship to take these samples. did will help law enforcement get criminals on the street and they just sit on these untested and it is unacceptable in any jurisdiction. the backlog problems in some jurisdictions show that we're the victims of our own success. the effectiveness of d.n.a. testing and more and more samples and more and more cases are vent to forensic labs. law enforcement also faces difficult questions of priorities when there are limited resources. so we're beginning to learn of possible solutions to these different dynamics. there must be national standard and protocols and best practices given clear guidance to police officers about when kits and other relevant d.n.a. should go to labs. every jurisdiction must have real incentives to provide come

pe competence in training and put it in place for the officers who handle d.n.a. evidence. we have to ensure good communication, compatible technology among labs and prosecutors in law enforcement. we also should reexamine regulations requiring samples sent out to good private laboratories to be reeb tested and government laboratories and they cost time and money as well as our ability to reduce backlog. i thank our fellow senator for putting this hearing together and her leadership on this issue while many committee members on both sides of the aisle are committed to fixing this, and senator kyl, from arizona, working closely with me to get the debbie smith act passed. now let's get to the bottom of the problem, and we can solve that, there is no question in my mind we can solve it. there is no question in my mind we will solve it.

we will. senator sessions. >> thank you, chairman leahy. i have firmly of the view that we are not, as a nation, investing enough money into the kind of forensic evidence gathering capabilities that can help us reach the best way to fight crime, particularly crime like rape which tends to be reeb pet tiff. people tend to be repeat offenders and i really believe we should do a lot more about that. i am not happy frankly with the state and local governments. it has always been frustrating to me that we have increases in law enforcement, but not enough for forensics, and just not just d.n. a. i mean, there is fingerprints. there is forensics for the guns

and firearms cases an all kinds of other scientific evidence and all this backlog leaving cases unsolved and not going forward, even simple drug analysis cases that often delay prosecutions for months, many months, simply waiting on a chemist's report to determine the substance the individual had was illegal, so i guess, mr. chairman, i really think that we are on to something that is important. i also believe the department of justice should be taking the lead in staying and studying d.n.a. and how it could be better applied, what kind of protocol and best practices should be out there, what kind of new techniques are developing now in d.n.a. that can make or help local officials identify

repeat criminals earlier in their processes and stop victimization and actually reduce crime, so i think there are a lot of things we need to do. i don't think that this federal government should be bearing the responsibility of paying for every rape kit in america, and it just doesn't strike me as a smart thing, so we need to be figuring a way to get our local law enforcement up to where they need to be, and if we can help create the data base, the infrastructure, the protocols an research, that would be our first choice, and i have supported and will continue to support additional federal resources to accelerate and improve our state and local forensics capability. i think that's an important matter. i look forward to this excellent panel. thank you. >> thank you very much. we begin with debbie smith, who is the leading national advocate

for the elimination of rape kit testing backlogs since she was raped and kidnapped near her home in 1989. more than six years later, her assailant was finally caught and linked to the crime through the use of d.n.a. evidence. she has worked tirelessly along with her husband rob to raise awareness of the importance of d.n.a. evidence containing the rape kits. she worked closely with me and other members of the congress to address the rape kit testing backlogs. she has lent her name to the debbie smith rape kit reduction act which passed as part of the justice for all act of 2004. i remember that phone call i made to her that day. i think i caught you at an airport or somewhere to tell you the good news, and as i recall, both of us were pretty emotional. it has been reauthorized in 2008, and so, please go ahead.

>> let me say how honored i am to have been included in this panel before you today. as a surviving victim of sexual assault i understand the great importance of the work to be done. i don't bring any kind of professional perspective to this table seated with some of the top professionals in their field but what i can offer you is firsthand knowledge of the importance of timely testing of d.n.a. evidence and the elimination of the current backlog of both suspect and offender -- suspect and victim kits. for the next few minutes, i would like to ask each of you to remove your political hats, and i would like to ask you to take your place as a husband, father or brother, or as a mother, sister or friend. you have just received the news that your loved one was abducted from her home, taken to the woods where she was robbed and raped. he entered her home in the middle of the afternoon through a door that was left unlocked for a matter of moments. this

masked man repeatedly said he would return and kill her if she told anyone. she believed him. she cried hysterically pleading with you not to call the police, but in your heart, you know that it's the right thing to do. you call the police and your loved one sits in shock as she's asked countless questions. your heart is breaking as you watch her trying to hold on to her sanity. watching her trying to struggle and make sense out of what has just changed her life so completely hurts beyond measure. you feel helpless, wanting to take away the pain that has just so very evident in her eyes. within your heart and mind, a search begins because surely there has to be something that you can do to make it better or somehow easier but you find that that search is in vain. you convince her now that she needs to go to the hospital to have the only physical evidence taken. this person that you love is begging you not to make her go, but you know that you have to deny these pleas just as you

denied her cries not to call the police. your prayer is that you're helping her to do the things that she would do, make the right decisions, ones that she would make herself if only she could. it's what you have been taught is the right thing to do. the next step. as the two of you walk into the hospital, you try to make her understand that this really is necessary. it is the only way that we can catch this man and provent him from hurting anyone else. she walks like a frightened child, terrified and confused. she hears you tell the receptionist that she was raped. now her mind begins to reel, no, because it can't be true. rape just doesn't happen to people like me. the nurse then leaves the two of you to a room where the questions begin all over again, questions, questions and still more questions. you begin to wonder if you really have helped her to do the right thing after all. the look in her eyes conveys that the sheer desperation she is feeling, needing to know that someone is on her side, that

someone truly believes her, but her nightmare continues as she is asked to lie down on the table to put her feet in the stirrups an spread her legs, a male doctor then appears and begins this invasive procedure by probing, plucking, scraping and swabbing her just hours after having been attacked by mother man. her face feels -- her face reveals her humiliation. she is crushed and feeling even more vulnerable, what was left of her self-esteem has now completely vanished from her limp body. simply put, she has been violated all over again. you only hope that one day this very procedure will bring justice. as you leave the hospital, you trust things are going to be better now but it doesn't take long before the vacant stares give away that she has been robbed of any joy in life. her fear is very apparent as you watch her struggle to leave her house, or to even allow the children out of her sight as her rapist threats will not leave her mind.

remember, i know where you live and i will come back to kill you if you tell anyone. because you know her so very well, you fear that one day you will find that she has taken her own life. all she wants is her freedom, peace of mind. she wants to feel safe. she wants justice. but she waits. my husband and i lived this nightmare. when a rape victim submits to this intrusive four-hour evidence collection process, she at least knows that she has done her part, done everything that has been asked of her to keep this man from hurting anyone else. unfortunately, there is a very good chance that this vital evidence will sit on a shelf with thousands of other kits, each box holds within it vital evidence that is crucial to the safety of women everywhere. statistics prove that the average rapist will rape 8-12 times before he is caught. how many of these rapes could be prevented? i merely existed for six and a half years, waiting for my

rapist to be identified, trying my best to deafen the sound of his voice in my ears but the fear -- but for fear for myself and my family held my heart and soul within its grip. i became suicidal, seeking peace and rest from the pictures that played in my mind constantly, but finally d.n.a. revealed the identity of my rapist, giving me the sweet breath of validation and promised justice. i want every victim of sexual assault to experience this gift of renewed life and i am here today on behalf of those thousands of victims whose cases continue to sit on the shelves. i am here for the future victims and for those who sit in a prisonell who have been wrongly accusesed. i speak for amy, who was attacked in 1996. she had no hope that her rapist would be ieb dent fied because the rape kit collected yielded very little d.n.a. evidence.

amy tried to find piece but her memory but her memory through therapy, antidepressants and alcohol. by 2004, d.n.a. technology had changed. her evidence was retested and revealed the d.n.a. profile of her attacker and has linked him to at least two other cases. amy says in her own words "today i have hope. hestill haunts me. i still have fear, fear but i also have hope and a new purpose. i am also here for those who can no longer speak for themselves. a lab scientist in florida related the story of a rape victim who waited until she could no longer wait anymore. this was evidently a case that had been worked -- they had worked on for some time for the day that a d.n.a. match was made, the scientist went to deliver the news in person to the detective working the case. the detective looked at her with a solemn face but said that's great news but the victim committed suicide last night."

unfortunately, this is not an isolated case. it's now time that i would ask you to put your political hats back on, because by doing this it empowers you with the ability to make a real difference. it is within your capacity as legislator to make sure that these kits are taken off the shelf and reviewed to ascertain if there is any viable forensic evidence within. can you imagine going through this horrible exam examination only to have the results sit behind locked doors? when someone is robbed, everything possible is done to find this person that has taken what doesn't belong to them. prosecution is pursued and the guilty is made to return what was stolen to its right rightful owner but you are powerless today to return to a rape victim what was taken from her because you can't restore her dignity, her innocence or her peace of mind. you can can't remove those pictures from her mind without that appear without warning. you just can't, but you can give her justice by making her apist

pay for his crimes. lady liberty stands proudly in the new york harbor offering freedom for all within our borders. equal justice under law is etched in stone. across our supreme court building and our flags are raised high. symbolic of our pledge of liberty and justice for all. sexual assault victims across our country wait for that pledged freedom from the fears -- from the chain of fear and guilt. her attacker would have constrained her. she anticipates the promise promised justice for the crime committed against her. i ask that you use your power to award her what is promised to all americans, liberty and justice for all. thank you. >> >> because i know you and rob so

well, i think listening to your testimony, many people can understand why when i called you a few minutes after we passed the bill why that was such an emotional phone call for both of us. i thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> and rob, i thank you, too. >> senator, the next witness is from someone you know well so i will ask you to please introduce him. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you, mrs. smith, for that moving story and your courage, not only for telling your own story but also for being the voice for so many victims out there, and on behalf of senator frank and myself, we welcome steve reading, our next witness and a minnesotan. when i became the county attorney, over a million people in minneapolis, 45 suburbs, i came in from the outside without

a lot of criminal experience and i wanted to put someone in charge of the violent crimes division that had the trust of the people in the office and that was steve reading. he served well in that role but most importantly for our hearing today, he is one of the national experts on dna and that means not only being a tough smart trial lawyer and being able to convince a jury hike so many good prosecutors but it also means having the willingness and determination and intellect to learn the science of d.n.a. which is not that easy for so many lawyers to dig in and read all the scientific articles, because we have to be as sophisticated as a science and the people on the other side. his wife suzanne is here as well, who believes, mr. chairman, that you can use this newfound science, not only to convict the guilty, but also to protect the innocent. steve redding. >> my name is steve r exdding, and i am senior assistant county

hearing and our office serves approximately 1.1 million people. i want to thank the members of the judiciary committee for inviting me here. i especially want to thank senator clobatur who was county attorney eight years. from the moment she was elected county attorney, she fully understood the dna testing importance in carrying out our duty to convict the guilty and protect the innocent. i also want to thank mike freeman, my present boss for his unwavering support in d.n.a. issues both now and for the eight years that he was county attorney. d.n.a. has solved many cold cases in the united states. hi the good fortune to prosecute the first two cold cases in the united states in 1992 and '93.

one of the rape homicides of a recent college graduate and the second was the assault of a milwaukee young woman by a serial rapist. none of those young men will be released from prison. .

there was not sufficient amount of biological material to test. 13 of those cases produced john doe profiles. 13 of those cases produced a hit to a convicted offender. ten of those hits were to convicted fauvenders with previous sex list riss. three were without a history. of those 13 three have been convicted, five have been charged. in two cases we are still looking for the victim. one is still under investigation and two turned out the d.n.a. was from a consense sexual partner. these demonstrate how fruitful it can be to test this group of cases and this type of case. additional grant funding similar to the project that i

am working on now can yield similar results. one year ago it became mandatory to test all cases where the victim said her perpetrator was a stranger. we need more funding. years ago we provided training to inexperienced prosecutors. that training was crucial. however, in mothse cases it is no longer available. in sexual sault cases evidence is more often performed these days by a specially trained nurse. perpetrators know about d.n.a. and are taking steps to avoid leaving d.n.a. one perpetrator car jacked and assaulted the victim and ejack lated in her pants.

he took the pants. he thought he took the only evidence that could tie him to the assault. however, the nurse who was taking the evidence from her in a careful interview revealed that he had talked on her cell phone. she obtained her cell phone, she swabbed the sever of the cell phone. that d.n.a. profile was entered into the convicted offender data base and it hit to this man. her training and innovation made that arrest possible. he is charged and he is waiting trial. for similar reasons police and prosecutor training would enhance investigations. there needs to be more cooperation between police and prosecutors. if there's anything i've learned as a prosecutor, it is that when police and prosecutors work together we improve outcomes significantly. teamwork on cold cases is especially crucial. in many places, a road bloc exists to this cooperation and

i have detailed what that is in my smigses and suggested solutions to overcome it. the crime solving ability of our national data bases is amazing. in september of 1989 a young woman was stabbed to death. as part of a cold case homicide project, minneapolis police sergeant found evidence and that evidence was submitted for d.n.a. testing. that evidence hit to a man whose only felony conviction was for drunk driving. senator cobetur was largely responsible which for the law which made repeat drunk driving a felony. the crime never would have been solved but for the fact that he was placed into the convicted offender data base. this is a magnificent example where the law of unintended consequences led to a terrific outcome. i am fortunate have to have

been a part of this. i have made suggestions to this committee. i believe the use of d.n.a. typing to identified rapists can be furthered enhanced and additional rapist ks be brought to justice. i outlined in my submissions a number of areas that can help us. i want to thank you for inviting me to testify before you today and i look forward to continuing my work on maximizing the use of d.n.a. technology in this area. >> thank you very much. our next witness has been the director of victims of crime. she joined the organization in 1991. she has written and spoken extensively on policy issues affecting victims of crime. recently served on the national

advisory committee on violence against women. i have a note that she received her law degree from georgetown university law center, and some of us on this committee of course find that -- never mind. we actually have two of us on this committee. one other besides myself who graduated from georgetown. please go ahead. >> thank you, chairman lay hi. good morning, chairman, ranking member sessions and other members of the committee. again, i'm public policy director of the national center for victims of crime which is a national nonprofit resource and advocacy organization that will soon celebrate our 25th year of champning if rights and interest of crime. our members include providers and professionals at the state, federal, and local levels. we have a long history of advocating for sexual assault vict nls and working to promote

the use of d.n.a. evidence and i appreciate the opportunity to appear this morning. sexual assault victims call our help line every day. when they can't find the help or information they need at the local level. they remind us as debby smith did this morning that undergoing a rape exam can be intrusive, violating, exhausting, and confusing, especially when it's not conducted by a specially trained sexual assault nurse examiner. once the exam is complete, victims often have no idea what happens to the rape kit. many mistakenly assume that every kit is sent to the lab immediately, so they're very confused as to why they can't get information about their case. if they later learn that the kit was never sent to the lab and no one tells them why, they become very upset and discouraged. victims whose kits are lost or destroyed before processing are especially angry. one recent caller spoke at

length about her frustration that after she had done all she could to promote the investigation, no one else seemed to care about bringing the offender to justice. another recent caller was outraged that rape kits from her offender's previous victims had languished for years without being tested. she is ready to sue state and local officials because she is convinced that if those kits had been processed, her rapist would have been caught and she would never have become a victim. our members confirm what we hear from victims. that many jurisdictions are not processing all appropriate rape kits and that there are substantial delays in many jurisdictions around the country. now, moving forward, we would like to appear today to offer a clear policy solution to the rape kit backlog but before we can do that we need more information. we need to know more about whether the problem is a lack of understanding about the invest gative power of d.n.a. evidence or a lack of funding

to process evidence, or a lack of will to investigate and prosecute more sexual sault cases. each of those barriers would call for a different policy solution. we also need to know if there is any benefit from testing every rape kit even if the identity of the defendant is not at issue. some jurisdictions have cleared or are in the process of clearing their rape kit backlogs by doing just that, testing every kit. their experience could give us the information to know whether that's our path forward. but at this point, we are reluctant to recommend that every kit be tested. if a defendant admits to the sexual conduct but claims consent, there may be no evidentry value in processing the kit. after all, if he is later convict d, his d.n.a. will be captured and submitted into the data base. because our capacity to process d.n.a. and other forensic evidence is limited to require

testing of every sexual assault kit even those unlikely to result in probetive evidence will inevitably reduce or delay testing in other types of cases. many victims of other crimes also have a compelling interest in the prompt testing of forensic evidence. forensic d.n.a. testing could help close many open homicide cases. burglary victims can bn fit from the use of forensic evidence. families with missing persons could benefit if more unidentified remains were processed. until our capacity for d.n.a. testing grows, any prioritization of a class of cases should be crafted carefully. in the meantime, there is much congress can do to improve the treatment of rape victims as forensic evidence is gathered and processed. first, congress could provide additional support for sexual assault nurse examiners to ensure compassionate treatment and preservation of evidence.

we also recommend a creation of a sexual assault victims d.n.a. bill of rights such as california has which gives rape victims the right to know whether their rape kit has been processed and whether an assailant has been identified. we also urge you to support increased public awareness that sexual assault victims have the right to a free forensic exam even if they have not yet made the decision to report the crime. victims typically learn about the forensic exam from the police or the rape crisis center but only a fraction of victims will report to the police and many victims delay calling the rape crisis center until it's too late to capture that forensic evidence. we applaud this committee for its repeated efts to bring justice to sexual assault victims and other victims of crime and to senator franken for bringing attention to this important issue. the national center for victims of crime looks forward to working with you in crafting

legislation to use d.n.a. evidence, bring a just response to victims of crime. thank you. >> very thank you very much. the chairman stepped out briefly so i have the honor to introduce the next witness. stephanie is the commander of the miami dade police crime laboratory bureau. as head of the lab she oversees forensic labs that test control substances, trace evidence, biological evidence, firearms, and tool marks. she is a nationally recognized leader in forensic science and has lectured before the american prosecutors research institutes, the national institute of justice, and the international association chiefs of police. she has also taught as an adjunct professor at the international research institute at florida international university and is a current board member of the american society of crime laboratory directors. she received her bachelors of science from florida university and her master's from florida

international university. >> good morning, members of the committee. as stated, my name is stephanie, i am the crime laboratory director at miami dade police department and i am responsible for the managing operation of a full service laboratory. in addition to my duties as crime laboratory director i also sit on the board of the american society of crime laboratory directors which represents the interests of over 500 crime laboratory directors throughout the united states and overseas and plays an active role in overseeing the credibility and activity of labts. i am honored to be asked to speak to you about ensuring the effective use of d.n.a. evidence to solve rape cases nationwide. the role of crime laboratories is twofold. to provide investigative leads to remove dangerous offenders, or exonerate innocent suspects

and to provide the results and interpretations resulting from these investigations in a court of law. at the end of the day, there are more cases that could be worked. cases must be prioritized. generally speaking, when faced with a decision on how to prioritize these cases the highest priority is given to the cases in which the subject is the greatest threat to society. crime laboratories are faced with insufficient person until, funding to meet the expectations of investigators courts and sipts sense. forensic science is becoming an increasingly important component. crime laboratories also provide scientific analysis in controlled substances, firearms, late nt prints. nond.n.a. comprize almost 90%, a significant backlog exists in all area of forensic science not just dna and the timely

digs disposition is impacted by a lack of funding to support the needs of forensic laboratories nationwide. as a result of the glamourization of forensic science, d.n.a. requests are made of the crime laboratory because the jury expects the evidence to be tested. there are many, many requests that are made of the lab to perform testing when the identity is not in question. if identity is not in question, why drain precious laboratory resources. prosecutors need to explain that television drama is just that, a dramtization of fictitious events. in a perfect world with unlimited resources, every lab could analyze every sample from every case. however, the reality is quite different. there are resources used nationwide that preclude the analysis of every item and case. each case is evaluated separately and each case is different. for example, if a consense wull case is submitted with an underage female and her adult boyfriend should this receive

the same level of attention as a stranger rape? crime laboratories do not treat these the same way. we understand the value of analyzing sexual assault evidence. this does not mean that a consense wull case would never be analyzed but it does mean that it's different. if crime laboratories were to examine every case, then er case would go unexamined. the primary challenge that faces crime laboratories, backlogs exist. there is no single explanation that defines what makes up a backlog. is it cases in-house that have not been opened? cases in progress but not yet complete? cases never submitted to the laboratory? scrime laboratories can only manage the cases that they know about. in our experience, the written policy allows the miami dade police department to manage the backlog. this translates to a continual juggling of priorities to meet the needs of the judicial system. this juggling is not performed in an arbitrary manner. there are defined priorities

for all cases that enter a crime laboratory. in coming priorities are the violent crimes. however, the cases that go to trial fasters are the property crimes. the question is then posed as to why valuable resources are then spent on property crimes. d.n.a. revealed that 52% of violent offenders had a burglary in their past. the idea here then is prevention. the earlier these offenders are removed from society, the less opportunity they have to progress to violent crimes. cold case crimes are also important. and congress has authorized funded to reexamine cold cases. the miami dade police department has pursued funding and has successfully obtained over $1.1 million to reexamine cold case filing crimes. of the first 100 cold sexual crimes cases, 68 d.n.a. profiles were uploaded into

coduss. 32 hits were made. training is an essential component from the collection and submission of evidence to the analysis reporting and testimony. the miami dade police department crime laboratory bureau provides training to investigators, attorneys, and judges. and what every law enforcement officers should no about d.n.a., explains the importance of d.n.a. evidence. this information should be common knowledge among law enforcement and criminal justice person until. training crick lal should include as a matter of routine procedures for the proper collection. the management of case work submitted to a crime laboratory is not only a law enforcement problem. it is an issue that must be addressed within the entire judicial system. submission of every case to the crime laboratory with the expectation that every case can be worked is unrealistic. every case needs to be evaluated separately and not every case needs to be analyzed.

in addition, labts do not have the resources to evaluate every case or every sample from every case. the answer does not lie in the hands of the criminalists across the country who analyze these on the daily basis. the responsibility lies in the hands of the entire judicial system. if cases are not going to be prosecuted, why expend it had resources? the efforts welcome back a crime laboratory should focus on how to produce results in a timely manner where forensic science can provide critical information. there is no one size fits all approach. this must be fluid to meet the demands of the judicial system. i appreciate the opportunity to appear before this committee today. thank you. >> thank you very much. and our last witness is jan sepech. a an advavo cat of d.n.a. test

forg all. she led the effort that eventually resulted in the adoption of kay's law in new mexico. along with her family she founded d.n.a. saves. a nonprofit organization devoted to the passage of arrestee testing laws across the country. her work has been featured in america's most wanted. she has been honored by governor bill richardson as outstanding new mexico woman of 2007, inducted into the new mexico women's hall of fame. not withstanding all the honors you've received, i'm sure you wish the reason was not there. thank you for what you have done and thank you for your testimony. >> chairman lay hi and members of the committee, my name is

jan, and i so greatly appreciate the opportunity to speak to you today about the very important issue of d.n.a., forensic d.n.a. testing and the related backlogs. i'm here as the mother of a murdered daughter and i'm also here representing the surviving parents coalition. the surviving parents coalition are parents of children who have been murdered or abducted and sexually assaulted. and as a group, we fight for laws that will help protect our children and young people. forensic d.n.a. is vite toll solving crimes against children, particularly as children are often not able to put into words those crimes that were committed against them. so as such, supportive d.n.a. is a legislative priority for the coalition. in august of 2003, my beloved daughter katie was a vyvashese, joyful, loving graduate student at new mexico university. she was attacked just outside of her home in a supposedly

very safe neighborhood she was brutely raped, sodomized, strangled, set on fire, and her body left in an abandoned dump site. i have no doubt it is never easy for any parent to bury their child. but the horror and the pain of losing katies in this violent manner is beyond description. there was no strong suspects in katie's murder, but katie fought so hard for her life that she had the skin and blood-ore attacker underneath her finger nails which contained his d.n.a. i know now how lucky we were that katie's murder was such a high profile case because the district attorney didn't want to send that d.n.a. sample to our crime lab because our backlog there was about a year. so she used her own precious budget to outsource it to a private d.n.a. lab.

that profile was sent to codus and i cannot describe for you what broad hope this brought to our family because we knew who killed our daughter. all we had to find was a match on the offender data base. there are so many families across this country that also have this bright hope but there are so many more who are waiting. waiting. and it pains me to think of those thousands of rape kits that are sitting on shelves around this country. because when i think of those rape kits, i don't think of evidence. i see faces. i see faces like that of my daughter katie and i feel the pain of the mothers who have buried their daughters and are waiting for justice. and they deserve justice. they deserve to have evidence

in their cases tested, analyzed, and uploaded. because without testing there may be no hope for justice. and without justice, these monsters remain free on our streets to vibtmies again and again, to rape again, to murder again, to cause this pain again. this is unconscionable. when i learned of the d.n.a. evidence in katie's case, i said this man was such a monster that surely he will commit another crime, he will be arrested for something else. they will take his d.n.a. we will know who he is. we will stop him from killing again. and that's when i learned that while every state takes finger prints from individuals arrested for crimes, most states did not allow for d.n.a. to be taken upon felony arrests. i was stunned. we do not allow our law enforcement to check the d.n.a. data base for a possible match before allowing people accused of the most hainnuss crimes in

our society, murder and rape, to be released on bail. we don't even bother to check the data baste. we just release them. that's when i began to research and study the issue of taking d.n.a. upon arrest. based on my research, i became a national advocate for taking d.n.a. upon felony arrest and my husband and i founded d.n.a. saves which is a nonprofit association which advocates for d.n.a. laws nationwide. we know we can't bring katie back but we can work to change laws so that we may be able to prevent this horrible pain from being visited upon other parents. in 2006, we fought for katie's law in the state of new mexico. it's a law that requires that d.n.a. be taken upon felony arrested. it went into effect january 1 at mid night, 2007. since that date, new mexico's program has registered 104

matches of unsolved crimes to 86 individual arrestee d.n.a. profiles. that's in less than three years in a state with a total population of right at 2 million people. one hour and 14 minutes after this law went into effect in new mexico, the first arrestee was swabbed in the detention center. it matched a double homicide. that man, james misako has since been convicted. just three months after katie was murdered, a man named gaberill was arrested for breaking into the home of two young women. we didn't have katie's law in new mexico at that time so his d.n.a. was not taken. it was over three years later that he was finally convicted of burglary, incarcerated and his d.n.a. was taken. and that d.n.a. matched the d.n.a. that katie fought so hard to provide.

as she was being murdered. he subsequently confessed, pled guilty, and will spend the rest of his life in prison. if new mexico has required a d.n.a. sample for all felony arrested in november 2003, katie's murder would have been solved three years sooner. three years that her family prayed for justice, and waited to know that this killer was off the streets. and i have to tell you that during that time i've been told by the district attorney that over $200,000 was spent investigating her murder, $200,000 that would have been saved. but, more importantly, this man would have been in custody three years sooner, unable to victimize other young women. but we cannot consider one side of the data base because the data base has two sides. the offender d.n.a. data base and also the evidence in the

data base. without a strong d.n.a. data base of offenders and arrestees, we will necessarily limit the possibility of match that is can be made. and conversely, without testing of the evidence, without uploading the evidence in a timely manner, we limit the match that is can be made. in the past six years, i have come to meet so many families who have lost their daughters as i have, so many families who have had their children abducted and sexually assaulted, and a great number of rape victims. we owe it to these people to have their evidence tested in a timely manner. but, more importantly, we owe it to our country, to our citizens, to stop these monsters in their tracks before they rape and murder again and again. we have been given a wonderful scientific tool in d.n.a. that is ultimately the truth.

and this truth can not only solve crimes, it can prevent crimes. and in doing so, it can save precious lives and exonerate the innocent. we must do everything we can to make full use of this invaluable scientific tool. to do otherwise is criminal. thank you. >> thank you very much. let me -- and thank you for your courage in coming here to speak. you and ms. smith put -- it takes us far from these statistics and brings it to reality. those of us who had the privilege to serve as prosecutors before we were here in the senate know what the a lot of these cases are like. we see the personal side of it. they're not just statistics. they're human faces on crimes,

the victims, what it does to families and communities, and what you do, both of you in speaking out, tell all of us what that is. so thank you. i want to ask a question of commander solof and mr. redding. in a recent national institute of justice report found that one reduction simply getting that evidence from the police department to the lab, the study recommended additional training of law enforcement personal in the creation of uniformed procedures for submitting evidence as well as improved training for police officers on the benefits and use of forensic analysis. i'll start with you, commander. in your experience, what role has training played in educating law enforcement person nel about the importance

of d.n.a. testing and how do you, and how about prioritizing those cases where d.n.a. analysis is most useful? >> let me address the second part of your question first, in prioritization. i think the prioritization is something that has to occur in order to, as i said in my statement, in order to remove the offenders that are the greatest threat to society. so if you have a homicide and sexual assault that come in with a stranger offender versus a burglary of somebody's car, most citizens are understand the burglaries because that's what is common to society. however, the greatest threat would be the rapist or the murderer. so the prioritization is pretty clear. in laboratories nationwide. >> should there be a uniformed

standard nationwide on that? >> as far as -- well, i think there should be a uniformed standard as far as all of the offenders that are threatening, yes. for the violent offenders, absolutely. i think all crime laboratory directors believe that, in my experience, and anybody i've ever spoken to, understand that those are the highest priority. i don't think there's any laboratory that prioritizes as a case is submitted. >> what about a national training program? would that be helpful? as you go from somewhere as large as dade county or hampton county down to very small jurisdictions, which are actually the majority of jurisdictions. >> i'm sorry, sir? your question is? >> well, would a national training program on rape kits and d.n.a. evidence, would that help? >> i think the national

training program would certainly help from the perspective of law enforcement and that you have a lot of law enforcement, especially as you're saying in small agencies, that aren't aware necessarily of what d.n.a. can do. so i think that the education and training is on the side of what can we, to know what to collect torks know what to submit, one thing that is very important is that you have one chance at the crime scene to collect everything. i9 doesn't mean that everything is submit d to the laboratory or analyzed right away but it does mean it's preserved in the event it needs to be analyzed at a later date. so i do think there should be some kind of training across the nationwide as far as what the capabilities are. i do think there is a lack of understanding whether you have -- i forget the expression, but the old-school police that believe that the investigation should solve every crime and the realization that what physical evidence can do to

solve the case is one side of it. and then the new recruits, it should be mandated that they go through some sort of training. >> before my time runs out, you see it after it gets into place. you see it from the prosecutor's point of view. what do you think about having uniformed standards for when the d.n.a. gets turned over to labs? national training? i mean, are these things helpful? can you fall into a one size fits all? >> i don't think you can fall into a one size fits all, but i do think that some type of national standard or some type of best practices would be something that would be very valuable to law enforcement. even within our county, i've noticed and seen significant differences between the police departments in what they choose to send to the laboratory and the police departmentst in what the people who collect the evidence actually collect. and we've done some work to try

to bring those standards together so that we have an even policy across our law enforcement agencies in hennepin county. but i do think that kind of training would be helpful. i get calls all the time from police officers who are not aware of the capabilities of d.n.a. typing. it has changed drassically in the 20 years that i've been working on it. so law enforcement needs to understand that where as 20 years ago we needed a significantly large sample to get d.n.a. from, recently we for example obtained d.n.a. from a murder victim by simply swabbing the area that we believed that the perpetrator had grabbed this victim and we were able to, the lab was able to swab that area where he had put his hands on her and come up with a d.n.a. profile to confirm who we thought that was. >> my time is up. i want to yield to senator sessions and then turn the

gavel over to senator clobetur. and she may have gathered from some of the press there are infortunately several things going on at the senate right at the moment. and in case i do not get back, i want to thank every one of you for your testimony. even as difficult, especially for two of you, how difficult it must be to give it. >> thank you. thank all of you for your testimony. and ms. smith and sms sepich particularly because of the description that you've given 06 real life situations that are so painful. let me ask with regard to ms. smith, the seven years you waited there before there was a hit, it strikes me that you have to have a data base to check the person against.

was that a factor in the delay in getting the identification of the person who assaulted you? >> yes, it was. because with my case, all of this was just beginning, so it was kind of playing catch-up. so trying to get the data base set up and all of that. and so that was, there was really nobody at fault at the time that my case sat. there's nobody at fault now other than the fact that we have a tremendous amount of kits that we just need to figure out the best way to get it done. because i think that everybody is on the same page in wanting to get it done. it's just that we've got to figure out a way to get it done. >> i think that's good advice to us. we need to figure out how to do this correctly. you described that you led an effort, i believe, to pass a law for new mexico. and that law turned out to be

the reason, it seems to me, from your testimony, that you identified the person who had killed your daughter. in other words, they did the test on this person's, when he was arrested three years later for a burglary, that got the hit. is that correct? >> senator sessions, actually, they could have had the hit three months after she was murdered. that's when he was arrested for burglary pfplt but we didn't have the law at that time. it was three and a half years after she was murdered that he was ultimately convicted and incarcerate. the law didn't go into effect until after about a month after the hit was made. but we've had tremendous effect since we've had the law go into effect in new mexico. >> but the point, one of the points we should all remember is that this individual was not

arrested for another rape. he was arrested for burglary. >> that's correct. >> and that is what told the tale. and, mr. redding, you solved a case in which when you got a hit on a person who was arrested for d.w.i. which is unrelated. based on your experience, and you've been at this for a number of years, do you think that the 20 states who now currently, i understand, test on arrest, that that is good public policy? >> i do think that's good public policy. i think that the larger you can get the convicted offender data base as well as the larger that you can get the data base which contains evidence from crimes, the more hits you're going to get. so i think that's good public policy. i see no constitutional barrier to that being enacted into law in other states. and i know that the trend is in

that direction. again, that will cause significant uptick in the number of samples which are submitted to go into the data base, but i think that that can be handled and i think that it should be handled. >> with regard to assault victims, you made reference to, several of you did, rape victims. even if they know the person who attacked them, it seems to me that either upon that person's arrest or from the d.n.a. itself, a test should be run because maybe the victims may not know that this person has a tendency. you know, is likely to assault someone else. how would you discuss the value of even testing and entering this information based on a

days where you know the victim? >> when the offender is known to the victim, we know that so many sex offenders are repeat offenders, and your ability to upload that person's sample will depend on there being convicted or in many states arrested. at this point, if you were to run a rape kit on a known defendant, that information would not be uploaded into codus because you have a known defendant. it would only then be a -- >> that would be a policy error. would it not? >> when we're talking about greatly expanding our demand on codas, i think we do have to be careful going forward. if he is arrested, in about half of the states, would go into codas and if he is later

convicted we would get that in. and there you're right we could start to see patterns. >> i see. one quick question. if a rape victim is examined properly, do you have to do multiple d.n.a. checks to make sure that you are getting a good information? in other words, how many actual readings and how much d.n.a. do you have to gather per victim? >> when the victim responds to the rape center there's a standard protocol that's followed for collection. there's a standard number of swabs and slides, et cetera, that are taken at the time. when we analyze the evidence in house, we analyze it once. unless it's required to be retested for court purposes, either the original analysis is not there or for whatever

reason, the analysis is done once. >> it could be multiple swabs. >> correct. >> and you analyze each swab? >> we would analyze each swab. correct. >> if you knew, if the person was arrested and you did it, you would only have to have one swab or specimen of that person's d.n.a. to put it into the data base. is that right? >> well, i think, if i'm understanding you correctly, the information if it's obtained, like if we were to obtain a male profile from one of the e items, we wouldn't need to test multiple items to put that in. however, when we do test the rape kit, we do test multiple items but the profile is only entered once. does that satisfy your question? >> i think so. i just think, if you identify the victim -- the perpetrator, you know the perpetrator, i

think it could be put in and might not cost quite as much as if you were having to obtain the sample from the rape victim. >> well, we need the sample from the victim to compare against, in the interpretation, to know what information is there. sometimes every case is different. sometimes in the details of the case necessitate comparison to the victim. so we always take the victim standard as part of the rape treatment kit. hour, i can tell you in our experience, we work every case even if the subject is known we still work it. obviously for prosecution reasons. but in florida, we put the standard in. so i would take the subject's standard and that would go into the data base. and we don't know when he is arrested. in the laboratory setting we don't have any knowledge of the disposition unless we happen to testify. >> thank you very much.

>> thank you very much, senator sessions. again, thank you for your moving testimony. and thank you for coming forward. ms. smith, you mentiond in your testimony, i think your written testimony, about -- and your story about the need for well trained nurses and how critical that is for collecting the evidence and making sure that victims don't feel revictimized when the received collected. do you have any thoughts about what we could do to better train these nurses in this area as well as get more medical students, nursing students to go into this area and be trained? >> yes. there is a wonderful program, sexual assault nurse examiners, that are trained specifically to take this exam. in my case, my doctor was actually reading the instructions as we went along. that's not real reassuring when you're going through an exam like this. but the sexual assault nurse examiners are not only trained

how to deal, how to get information that the average doctor may not even think about, but she is also trained to know how to do those first a emotional needs of her patient. she, a very good program, you will have rooms that are set aside so that the victim can go into a room, these sexual assault nurse examiners, that is all they're there for. there's not -- it's a one on one examination. it's not with me i had three different nurses asking me questions and then a separate doctor. and that -- >> so it builds troust just have one. >> exactly. plus you have all the confusion that just -- and she knows how. she is trained or he is trained to know exactly what questions to ask, how to ask them. and i can't tell you the

difference that that can make. >> thank you. speaking of that kind of coordination and efficiency, mr. redding, you talked about how there needs to be better cooperation and coordination with prosecutors and law enforcement with these labs, that the labs don't just serve the police, they also serve prosecutors. do you want to talk about why that's important an if you think there's something that we can do to enhance that cooperation. >> that is very important, as i've indicated, not just in cold d.n.a. cases but any time a prosecutor and the police cooperate during the investigation and the pre-charging aspect of a case, uniformly, that case turns out to be better and we have better results from that case. one of the things that happens and that i've -- i realize needed to be corrected was that the only person who was being advised of a hit was the police officers, and i received a call some years ago from our lab

saying what happened to these 25 cases of homicides and rapes? and i didn't know anything about most of them. so i contacted the police. we began together to investigate those crimes, and we were able to charge and convict a number of those people. so i have now set up in our jurisdiction contestimony prains notice from the laboratory to me as well as the police department. and that enables me to get involved immediately if that case, if it's important. and it's important because prosecutors can teach and are teaching across the country interrogation techniques for police officers which are different in cold cases than they are in the regular investigation, and if they're investigated differently and if the interrogation gezz differently, we have a much greater chance of success. >> and again, along these lines of efficiency, we all want to get these rape kits tested.

there's no doubt about that. from the previous hearings we've had on this issue. and we also want to get you more funding to do that. at the same time, i know as a local prosecutor there's nothing worse than a mabbed date without the funding. leave the money behind. right? so what i would like to know and hear from i gezz you, mr. redding, and ms. stoilof is how we can best use these resources. are there certain kits that you would argue shouldn't be tested or should they all be tested? what are the criteria you think that we should look at as we go forward? >> well, in sexual assault cases i agree that there is some value to testing acquaitance rape kits. obviously, laboratories have to prioritize and they must prioritize and almost all laboratories do. our's certainly do. >> it's not just d.n.a. there's even other kinds of evidence. there's more than d.n.a. >> yes. there are many types of other evidence. and the laboratories and

prosecutors have to deal with statute of limbations questions and those kinds of thing that is arise. but i do think that as we move forward, we're going to discover and we're going to be able to askern what the value is of whether or not we should test every sexual assault kit. in the grant that i'm working on now, we're evolving that opinion as we go along. our grant expires in june. we are looking now to see with whether or not in acquaitance rape cases that man who is identified by the victim is in fact in the offender data base. if he is in the data base, then there is not the significant reason to test that case nor that kit because if he's in the data base his profile would have already hit to an unsolved case. so we don't need to do that. that eliminates a significant number of the acquaitance rape

cases that we would think that need or there's value in testing. >> do you want to add to that? >> i would say i agree with what steve said. the prioritization certainly needs to be anything, any stranger rape case. and as i said earlier, when uffer a written prioritization policy that's clear what's going to happen when a case comes into the laboratory. the issue becomes if a stranger rape comes in and it's not addressed, that's what should be handled by each laboratory correctly. and the point that steve made about getting the profile and data baste. even in our experience, if the case is negative meaning there's no profile obtained, we will still work the standard that's submitted of the subject and put that into a data base. so we will do everything we can to put the profile in there. and sometimes it means thrt no evidence to test but we'll submit the standard and put that in as well.

>> so you want the test. you want the kit done. but once we get there and you want them preserved and there to use. but there may be an argument for prioritizing them, and clearly in all the stranger rape cases. >> that's correct. >> thank you very much. senator grassley. >> thank you, madam chairman. and thanks to all of you for your testimony. i'm just going to ask a few questions of ms. hawley. i've had the opportunity to work with her before on the restitution of victims of crime. so i was glad to have senator franken ask me, if i would join him as the lead co-sponsor of this justice for survivors of sexual assault act because i think that this would cut down on backlog of untested rape cases. now, you seem to raise the question as you discussed in

your testimony the need to know more about the backlog of untested kits before you would have a concrete recommendation to address the problem. i understand your concerns that we test d.n.a. samples effectively and efficiently. so a few questions along that line. do you believe a requirement that state and local governments provide statistics to federal government on untested rape kits? on the backlog thereof, would be useful? >> i think having that information would definitely be useful. my concern is i'm not sure how difficult it is to require states to provide that. nij and others have been trying to quantify prsicely the existing d.n.a. data base for many years. and so i would just want to be sure that we understand what the barriers have been to getting precise figures before

we demand that of states. i certainly agree that we need that information, and we need to figure out how we can best get it. i think part of the problem has been, as i believe ms. stoilof said earlier, sometimes you have kits that are in the local law enforcement office and you have other kits that are in a lab. it might be a local lab, a private lab, a state lab. i believe one of the problems has been identifying all those locations, maybe some are still kept at the hospital and haven't been forwarded. so identifying what exactly do we want to count as part of the backlog and where exactly can we get those numbers. we've had problems before where i know many of lawmakers have tried to get precise figures from their state. they might be told by the state lab we have no backlog. they may be true at the lab level but if you were to go

around to all of the local law enforcement, you might find there are quite a few samples that haven't been forwarded. so that's my concern. not that we definitely -- we definitely need the information but we should figure out how realistic can we be that we will have a precise number. >> ok. well, will the annual reporting requirements assist in reducing and eliminating the backlog by you think essentially shaming jurisdictions into testing more rape kits? >> i think that any time that we can use real numbers to draw attention to a problem and then have real numbers to measure the effectiveness of agencies in addressing that back log, that's clearly an important step. >> what do you recommend for the sort of information required of the states or from the states? >> i'm sorry? can you restate? >> what sort of information should be required from the states that we're trying to get the statistics on?

>> i think states should be given clear guidance as to what should be considered part of the d.n.a. backlog and then urged to measure that backlog. so states should be given guidance that we want not only the backlog that exists at your state level labs and your local labs but your private labs. we want not only the number of samples that are in your major cities but also your smaller jurisdiction law enforcement offices. >> i'm going to move on to another question. in some states, rape victims are required to pay for their own rape kits and seek reimbursement after the kit has been processed. my judgment is rape victims should never have to pay for the cost of the kit. evidence collection is

obviously an integral part of law enforcement. this survivors of sexual assault act includes a provision that requires states to be responsible for full up-front costs of the kit and examination. do you think that the current law allowing for reimbursement of rape kit costs by states as opposed to full payment up front has caused any rape victims to avoid having rape kit collected? >> well, i am not aware of any cases where that has happened that would likely be a result. most states do not require victims to pay for the rape kit and then seek reimbursement. most states pay for it up front and off through their crime victim compensation program. under the compensation program the very fact of requesting a forensic exam counts as reporting for purposes of having the costs of that exam

reimbursed. in most states, the victim will never see a bill for the forensic exam, the hospital will send it directly to the compensation program or the other government payment source. >> i thought, maybe i've got it wrong, but i thought that there was more requirement to pay and it was holding people back. so if it's not a problem, i think we have a problem in getting word out that that's not the case. >> we definitely do have a problem getting word out. and part of this is because this system has been evolving in many years. so it could be that previous victims or previous advocates have not, are not aware of the change in procedures. states have made a real effort, especially through mandates under the violence against women act, to change the way that they are reimbursing or that, to change the way that they are paying for forensic exams. but a lot of that change is recent. >> thank you. thank you, madam chairman.

>> thank you very much, senator grassley. senator franken. >> thank you, madam chair, and i want to thank you and chairman lay hi in your leadership on this issue. i want to thank each of our witnesses, ms. smith, ms. seipech, for your courage and strength, and mr. redding and ms. stol of for your expertise and professionalism and ms. haulie for your advocacy. last month i introduced a bill joined by my colleague senator grassly and senator hatch and senator feinstein that would create financial incentives for jurisdictions to process the rape kit backlogs and remain prompt. the truth is i think this is one of those i