one of the walk-ons to shoot the ball. folks, before we go, we want to wish everybody and you too, a happy new year. happy new year to you, partner. >> mike g.: please be careful tonight how you address new year's eve. a safe and happy new year to you, mike, and your family. >> mike h.: we're going to have fun in basketball in 2010, no doubt about it. for mike gminski and our entire crew, i'm mike hogewood saying congratulations to nc state with their win over unc greensboro. happy

top 50 outrageous moments." "best damn" is taking you for a ride. it's the 50 most outrageous it's the 50 most outrageous moments in sports. caption funding provided by fox sports net unbelievable, these are the times that you said, holy [ bleep ]. 50 to 1, we're counting down the most outrageous moments in

sports. this is one "best damn" you would be crazy to miss. buckle up. it's "best damn's most outrageous moments." >> welcome to the top 50 most outrageous sporting events. second part of our two-part special showcasing them. are you ready for this? very good. the you didn't see the first 25 from last time, give you a quick recap of what you missed. >> he hurt himself leaping up and down. no! ♪

>> all right. sal, the first 25. are you ready to see the next 25? >> i can't wait. then i want to see the first 25 again. >> okay. to get this started, your buddy dennis rodman. >> number 25, this guy is nuts. >> just one foul so far. jordan is going in tonight. 71. oh, my goodness! rodman. the photographer is hurt. and down he goes. >> numb cher 24, parking infraction. >> and chan ho park with one on and one out. and he rocks it down again beautifully. tie him out. second time that park has moved. and now a fight breaks out. the lefty, well, you have to

believe that it didn't take long for belcher to part, to square off. >> number 23, bearing it all. >> i tell you, we've seen some great plays on the field, but i -- you're going to see something off the field that is classic here. follow the ball as it goes up the tunnel, from the right side of your screen, watch this. there he goes. off into space. he catches the ball, goes all of the way down the tunnel. and the guy's all right. he's back on his feet. broken both his ankles, there he is. >> number 22, anger management. >> and joe mikulik just ejected from the ball game and he's letting him have it. it's all over him. diving into second base.

he will show it to the field umpire. joe mikulik throws his cap and now he throws second base to the right field. he's all over him as well. shaking rosin everywhere. plate full of dirk. not bad. sealing the deal. now he's going to pour water all over home plate and make it all muddy. down home plate, he is really going after him. see if they can get him out of there now. >> number 21, run for the rosy. >> great news from the both on the marathon tonight. it was thought to be the women's winner was nothing more than a fake. rosy ruiz appeared to have won the marry than but later found out she merely stumbled in from the crowd on to the racecourse a half mile from the finish line. had the media and marathon officials fooled for a while. >> rosy ruiz?

okay. rosie ruiz, time of 2:31 and change. we don't know how many seconds that is. may be another american record. have you been doing a lot of intervals? >> someone else asked me that. i'm not sure what intervals are. what a r. they? >> track work designed to make your speed improve dramatically. is someone coaching you or advising you? >> no, i advise myself. >> rosie ruiz the mystery woman winner. she came through the finish in a fantastic 2:31. we have to confirm that time. at this point she was away head today in the boston marathon. thank you. >> thank you. >> and number 20, sacks. >> packers are out of time-outs. 30 seconds remaining. >> they're not putting it down. >> and now -- whoa, what happened here? >> the burger king guy. >> what is going on? a fan on the field.

he took the snap. this sin credential. that cost him the ball. the guy came running on to the field and when the ball was snapped. i think brett cost him the ball thinking somebody -- the whistle has sounded. >> number 19. >> iron mike. >> i'm going to rip his heart out. i'm the best ever. i'm the most brutal in michigan. no one can stop me. i'm alexander. he's no alexander. i'm the best ever. there's never been anybody like me. i'm jack tipton. i'm from their. no one that can match me. my style is i'm peck cue was. i'm ferocious. i want your heart. i want to seat your children. >> are you saying now, mike, mike -- all right, steve, you guys can decipher that and we'll

move on from here. >> number 18. >> oh, what a night. >> one, two, three! ♪ >> back in the ballpark. i hope they see what's going on he he here. they're demolishing a record. >> number 17, marshall. >> down, stops, throws. completes it up to the 30-yard-line. driving down. it's picked up by jim marshall is running the wrong way. marshall is run it is wrong way and he's running it into the end

zone p t. wrong way. he has scored a safety. his teammates were running along the far side of the field trying to tell him to go back. >> go back. >> number 16, h2o. >> this is a water cannon that went off unexpectedly. what a mishap. it obviously was triggered by the fireworks display. fans running for cover. look at the power behind this thing. this just destroyed a lot of hair. let me tell you that, folks, right now. coming up on the top 50 most outrageous moments. you saw mike tyson open his big mouth. . just see iron mike open his mouth and take an iron bite. and a whole lot more. here's one for you. if me and buster were hanging over a cliff...

and you could only save one of us... - which one would you save? - easy, you! - ooh, me or your mom? - uhh sorry mom! your miller lite? oh man... ( mumbling ) how high is the cliff? do you love the taste of your beer this much? well, you could. try the great pilsner taste of a triple hops brewed miller lite. taste greatness. if me and buster were hanging off a cliff... what is she talking about? i know.

number 15. splitting hairs. >> launch toes three. fouled. there's a fight breaking out. the fight has broken out between mourning and johnson. no one is going off the bench. jeff van gundy is on the bottom of the pile trying to drag his players away. again, the players have remained on the benches. jeff van gundy is irate. something is really set him off. >> number 14, quarter alarm. >> come on. come on. come on, man. >> number 13, crashing daytona. >> welcome back to daytona. >> it's the big one.

it's what we've all been fearing this kind of race is going to happen. a horrible crash on the back sdrath away that began when tony stewart got turned sideways against the back stretch wall of number 20. saw a puff of tire smoke. >> that's what started. somebody got in back of ward burton on turn two. >> that car has taken a whale of a ride, that 20 car has. hit on his roof. on fire. >> number 12. you ought to know. >> we've got a little thing going on here between thing. the fans are now getting involved. as o'reilly has gone into the stands. and this is going to be something. o'reilly is in the fans fighting with a major fan and all all the bruins are going over. mcnabb, they're all into the stands. mcnabb's going up to grab somebody. about seven or eight. >> you've got to worry about a

spectator. the bruins -- somebody could get seriously hurt. and number 11. oh, carl, can you sing? snt for the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming ♪ ♪ and the rockets' red glare >> uh-oh. ♪ the bombs bursting in air ♪ gave proof through the night that our flag was still there ♪ i'll make up for it now. ♪ oh say does that star spangled banner yet waive ♪

♪ or the land -- or the land of the free and the home of the brave ♪ number ten, zimmer down now. >> baseball coming down. >> you talk about look for a reason. >> absolutely. >> oh, my goodness. don zimmer and pedro martinez. that's awful. don zimmer, a 72-year-old man,

went pedro martinez's' face and don zimmer threw him down p. number nine. >> deep right center field. mccray on his horse. oh, he hit the wall! mccray, rodney mccray catching a fly ball, just ran through the wall in right center field. he will see that replay for the next 100 years. number eight, home run! >> fly ball right. back of the track. look at that. it is off his head, it looked like. a home run! it looked like conseco on the top of the head. we'll have to check the replay. >> it did. >> it went over the fence. david holt laughing out there. must have been something funny. it's a homer. look at this. number seven, yankee

chambliss. >> delivers a fly drive in right center field. it is gone! chris chambliss has won the american league finish for the new york yankees. dramatic game with overtones of that great six-game in the word series a year ago and then the seventh game, too. what a way for the american league season to end. look at chris chambliss. what a series he has had. and number six, on thin ice. ♪ oh say can you see ♪ by the dawn's early light ♪ what so proudly we -- sorry.

still to come -- >> a fan is on the field. a parachute has gone crazy. a parachute has gone crazy. and on old man hi, may i help you? yes, i hear progressive has lots of discounts on car insurance. can i get in on that? are you a safe driver? yes. discount! do you own a home? yes. discount! are you going to buy online? yes! discount! isn't getting discounts great? yes! there's no discount for agreeing with me. yeah, i got carried away. happens to me all the time.

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you're watching "best damn's top 50 outrageous moments." number five, rockin' robin. >> rbi single in the first. watch out. look at this. and here we go again. obviously the exception to the pitch. went of nolan ryan. number four, bowe crazy,

folks. >> things go good for him. >> he's just hammering bowe. just hammering him. that was another low blow. >> that's it. >> disqualification. >> you have to understand that people have to keep the rules in this game. >> and in the ring, the bowe camp, somebody is going to get hurt in there. >> got knocked off. >> don't do it, son. don't do that. >> they're all over the place. this is a very desperate situation. but he's doing it. >> hey! >> what are you going to do? >> no. look. >> now the fight has spread out of the ring now. he's doing his best to stop it. two more guys join in the ring. now the riot has spread from the far side of the ring and i see some people who are jumping on top of people at ring side and beating people with chairs. impossible to imagine what's going to be done to restore

order here. and number three. >> he does. loses, the bears have to get out of bounds. roger is along the sideline. another one. deep trouble at mid field. the ball is still rolling as they get it to rogers. they get it down to the 30, down to the 20, the band is out on the field! he's in the end zone! he's gone into the end zone! the bears have won! >> i told you a year before that happened a boxer would bite someone's ear off and a man would go into the ring, would you believe me? you won't believe it. even when you see it again. even when you see it again. which will be number bun w

oh! blue! time! time out. i touched it. i touched the ball before it went out, coach. come on, alex, the ref did not call that! you gotta be kidding me, alex! it's the championship game! talk to him, coach. i touched, it's their ball. don't foul them when they inbound. team on 'three.' one, two, three. nice going, alex. sorry coach. alex! good call. you're watching "best damn's

top 50 outrageous moments." >> he hurt himself leaping up and down. >> leonlet no! ♪ >> there he goes off into space. whoa, what happened here? >> i've never seen this in a ballpark in my life. >> he's on the bottom of the pile. >> here go again. >> the band is out on the field! >> so there are the first 48. that means we have reached the top two, you guys. ready for number two? not much to say about it. he bit his ear. watch. >> number two, an earful.

>> that's the jab mike had in the first fight. >> what happened here? >> he got bit, i think. >> evander holyfield. look out! he clipped his ear! >> he got bit on the ear. >> oh, my goodness. bloody right ear. holyfield bit by mike tyson. >> for tyson, that vicious exhibition. >> he bit his ear. can you go on? >> yes. >> okay. >> do you believe this? this is getting stranger and stranger. we're getting to see strange things happen in boxing. >> major controversy here in round three. >> a very angry evander

holyfield now. >> mike was having -- >> he did it again! he did it again! >> it's over! it's over! it's over. i think they just have had enough. tyson showing desperation in fighting holyfield, biting him two times. holyfield again. it is complete -- >> i'm beginning more and more to believe that tyson is a confused individual. and number one, fan man. >> bowe taking command right w now. >> someone -- and somebody in a parachute has just landed on the edge of the ring. the fight has been brought to a halt. there's a massive midway at ring

side. a motorized parachute has landed right on top of spectators and officials at ring side. right now, police are filing by me and ring side and grabbing this gentleman who has created an interruption. his parachute has caught itself up on a row of ring lights. we're going to take a look at an earlier shot of the parachutist before he came down. there he was on the left of the ring. let's see what happened as he approached ring side. he caught himself up right on the lights as you see there. and his body landed on the ring apron, right on top of a variety of people. this guy is going to wind up in the slammer in vegas tonight. and still going. >> there you have it, fan man

number one, most outrageous. you give it that. >> i agree. >> whether whether you agree or don't agree, just tell us and write us. it's that simple. thanks very much for watching. we appreciate it. see you next time on "best see you next time on "best damn." -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

democratic nomination i concluded, i think that is where it was a statement from elizabeth edwards talking about john edwards running against hillary and obama and saying we can't make john blacken we can make him a woman and i said in

my follow-up line well, they can't make him black. and the woman was asking me if that is funny and i said to her there's a man standing next to me who over hood-- overheard that in just burst out laughing. that is how i know it is funny. >> host: the but, beneath the humor you definitely hold the deep commitment to the founding principles of this country. talk about what you think makes america such an exceptional country? guest coburn there are so many things. i mean a lot of it does come from, from a christian worldview, a christian founding. part of that is freedom of choice so of course they prosper in america but it was disproportionately christians with a christian worldview founding it in part of-- part of what is interesting about that is i mean christ was really

upsetting the customs of his day by using so many women for his parables, by administering to women so often. that was very unusual, so as i said before the first feminist was not gloria steinem. it was jesus christ, and there is that the idea of the freedom of choice, i mean literally choice not killing babies choice, and also the idea that all men are created by god and therefore no man has the right to rule over you accept by your consent, except not perfect consent but that is the idea of a federalist democracy that making this a roula for you by divine right because the king has no genetic authority over you. there is and a son of god or some genetic power to roll over their people. that is why do you have to set up a system, not where we republicans are not huge fans of direct democracy and the old

perreault, we will have a poll question for every issue and take the numbers. you do want, i mean as described in the federalist papers you wanted to be faction against the action. you want the more intelligent people to be choosing their leaders but it is in a sense, it is the rule by consent. >> host: alright, than that is exception. >> guest: and it is certainly carried america through until now and we will see what happens. >> host: this will be interesting. chapter 1, i love the title, it is her called speak loudly and carry a small victim. you talk about some incredible victim hoaxes. ilec margaret jones aka peggy seltzer, j2 wrigh and then the one about the anti-muslim flares that were distributed at george washington and a conservative group. >> guest: that is in a long string of hate crimes. i only listed a small small

for-- portion of them in my book. after 20 years they think all these hate crimes usually on college campuses have turned out to be hoaxes. the only surprise about a news showing up on a college campus these days would be a racist. it is always somebody trying to bring attention to racism and anti-semitism sexes them whenever and what is thought to be you know a burgeoning clan movement at columbia university. then the entire nation, i don't know if you remember that there was a professor at columbia i guess about two years ago who was in the middle of the plagiarism investigation. and suddenly lo and behold finds a news on her door and for weeks the entire nation was fixated on this case, and if you had been following the hate crimes for the last 20 years your suspicions within the bin raised, your antenna would have gone up.

i think they finally abandoned the investigation from the very beginning. the police were saying we did not consider her a suspect. that is funny he would say that. when somebody is mug you don't normally leap to say we don't consider this a self-inflicted wound. but, i mean even if it had been something that it hasn't been for it least 20 years may be longer an actual racist sneaking into manhattan to put a news on the professor store cover-up to have a whole nation transfixed by this is a little bit strange. you have on cnn now these claims, hysterical claims about growing hate groups in america. i mean there are ways to measure these things like on comcast in the various web sites, denominators that tell you how many does the tears are going to this that web site and the log has indicated no. hate club membership groups,

their web site, there are about ten people laday clicking on these web sites. it is gun downie yet the media lies and says it is going up. there to those members of the klan in america right now, about 10% of them fbi agents watching the klan. there are 5,000 approximately men who are aroused by watching videos of women in stiletto heels crushing frogs with the stiletto heel while speaking to the frog. so that is a bigger issue than the klan in america and yet we have to act as if we are constantly under attack by the klan and as i described in the book, why is that? blacks were the original victim group and they were authentic victim's unlike all these johnny-come-latelies victim groups. at the time during slavery and during the jim crow laws the democrats were on the wrong side, so the democrats want a duelfer now when there is no one

in america defending racism. that is precisely what democratic czar-- when nobody is standing up for racism. was good then you wrote about the real victims and how they are treated. >> guest: like the duke lacrosse players. that is fairly well-known now for what, about a year-and-a-half these duke lacrosse players being falsely accused of gang raping a black stripper. the professors at duke signed a letter and completely accusatory whether. the administration did not stand by them at all, hung them not to dry. the "new york times" ran article after article and i mean that really was disappointing. which may sound funny coming from me but i and the "new york times" most loyal reader. i have boys wanted to post an ad for them saying it is america's greatest newspaper as long as you don't read anything on the op-ed page. even with the internet summersmith newspapers ought to

last. that is usually what you think count on for good coverage. for example they had just this week a fantastic article on people who have champs as pets. that is the sort of in depth coverage cheverly enjoy from the times but race was involved, sex wasn't all so they lose their minds and they lie about the case and even toward the end, when the black stripper who turned out to be lying, making up the story, and the evidence was preposterous, the prosecutor pushing this case and of course went to prison so justice was done in the end but all this time you had, i forget it was time or "news week" nb initial defendants mugshots on their cover. it was on and on. liberals reveled in racism in america because they were on the wrong side when the matter. >> host: these college boys lives were-- >> guest: and the and justice was done, and everyone just

moves on and pretend like it never happened. what if their parents had not been-- and it was always, you can always tell what a victim as if they start talking about them being frat boys, the son of a frat boy if they talk about the guy's daddy. you know this is some goldstein. and the parents were not that wealthy. they were middle class. what if they could have? >> host: the wedded bin doomed. another thing you wrote about that a lot of people commented on was that sean kennedy rush limbaugh and george bush are a great risk of assassination than barack obama. how so? >> guest: that is a fun little part of the book. in the last chapter i point out and i would not have mentioned it if they hadn't brought it up so much but throughout the campaign you keep hearing about this unique risk obama is that for being fascinated because he is a black and this is unlike

any other president or any other presidential candidate and they called then for special secret service protection. there was article after article about i am so worried for you. there were some liberal and britain saying it he is elected he will be assassinated. lycos that would not have mentioned it if they wouldn't have been dangling the big red cape in front of me but point in fact pretty much every presidential assassination or tented assassination in the history of america was committed by a liberal, some version of anarchists, coming as palestinian extremists. there are a couple who didn't particularly have politics. some would include john wilkes-booth than that and john hinckley but in wilkes-booth casey was an actor, a. he was a big peace monger. that was his reason for shooting lincoln. he said i love peace more than life itself. who does that sound like? in the case of hinkley the jury

did find him guilty by reason of insanity so i think we could ease that one into the liberal category. and in the open crazy left-wingers. >> host: that is the point i haven't heard anybody else make. >> guest: oswald tried to emigrate to the soviet union. he had taken a shot at a united states general. he was trying to emigrate to cuba. a lot of these, one of them was that of, i forget which one, was set off after reading a socialist pamphlet by emma goldman. just one after another, so with anybody takes a shot at obama it is going to be his-- >> host: one of the things we are doing at claire boothe luce institute at the staff and with archaean, when the leaders were reading hayek's the road to serfdom and in that book he said the socialist needs a scapegoat to rally a majority for common

cause. the question is as the american businessman become the liberal scapegoat to rally the nation for this new socialist welfare state, with welfare and socialize health care and forced unionization? >> guest: yes although i might say i don't have-- there's not a love lost between me and wall street. where the party of the small businessman. they are the party of the financial manipulators like the daddy warbucks of the democratic party, and george soros also writes about this book. it is curious that the three an official spokesman of the democratic party, george soros, a ariana huffington and marcus of the daily kos all speak in the accents of their native, their upbringings in foreign lands. >> host: what does that mean? >> guest: it means could wait a few generations and let your grandchildren to the america bashing? what did they get off in ellis island? can you let your grandchildren

do it? at least ssa sean hannity rush limbaugh, speak decipherable english. come to think of it i don't know if there yen and sorrells and daily kos are saying. they could be talking about quilting or nda scirrhus are something but i think they are america bashing. >> host: you also write in the book about david gergen quote. it was during a cnn debate about the 2008 election campaign and he was discussing a presidential debate and he said quote, mitt romney tried to argue last night about some liberal establishment which doesn't exist anymore. there has been a liberal establishment it shrunk a lot and it is not in washington. that is the 70's, said. how can a christian who has been around for so long it's such a remarkable assertion? >> guest: the quaid is part about the quote, i was talking to alex castellanos, you know

that alex. whenever they give you do you know that all sensible people agree you know liberals are lying and this is that is what we used to get all the time from the left before there was any alternative at all. was just to act like people were crazy for talking about the fact that the information industries were slightly to the left of lyndon, and you know suddenly fox news came along and liberals discovered it was possible to present the news in an agenda pushing way. i am not saying fox news does that the boy they sure got accused of it and for 34 years we heard, we are just reporting the news. news does not have a political content. suddenly they discovered it could have a political content and then the answer was you have fox news and shut up about it. look at haddow fox news is treated in addition to the orwellian named fairness doctrine trying to shut down talk-radio but not any of the

other news outlets because they are sofaer. and the clinton trying to-- how about looking at how fox news is treated. people are so used to getting liberal propaganda. i think most people were even alarmed, shocked, disturbed by the fact that all of the candidates for president on the democratic side refused to participate on the debate on fox news. they would take questions from a talking snowman that it was beneath them to go on fox news which has higher ratings than cnn and msnbc combined in iowa work for fox news. i never have. i like going there because i like their hair and makeup and you are allowed to finish your point, as long as allen isn't there. just kidding, i love you ellen. hosts goody msm? >> guest: i miss him so much. both hillary clinton and ed

rendell said the fairest election coverage came out of fox news. and yet the democrats want to treat it like the klan. what is unique about fox news is it is in the conservative station. it is not the conservative the equivalent of msnbc. what is the equivalent on msnbc to the liberal fox news, hiraldo provera, chris mall sir. helistat on msnbc? what is unique about fox news and in general makes for more interesting kealy is that it is a debate station. you have a liberal and conservative not just a bunch of liberals arguing with one another or eight liberals and one conservative. >> host: which is what people want which is why it is rated number one. >> guest: that is the easiest way to get the truth, the battle of the two sides because you hear things on the other stations and you wonder, wait a second what would republicans say to that?

you get the full story from both the left in the right on fox news and i feel like i'm doing a commercial for fox news. i have no vested interest except that i like their hair and makeup. >> host: recently i was in greece and the only news we had with cnn international. there was no fox, there's no talk radio. my husband and i decided if auletta of debt were cnn i would hate america too, because almost every piece about america is negative and critical. >> guest: cnn international is something to behold. it makes cnn looked like pat robertson's station, christian broadcasting network. that is something to behold. >> host: you write a fair amount about sarah palin in here too i am a great fan of. you write about the way the media covered her, making up things like people were saying at her rally, akhil obama, the way they covered the firing of

fur public safety commissioner, because she let him go again, remove this trooper-- >> guest: that is a good one. no one has asked me about that and what i love about that is, this was sarah palin's sister's act husband who head tasered palin's nephew, 10-year-old nephew, made death threats against sarah palin and her sister's father and then in addition to infractions on the job-- drinking on the job and so forth. normally what with the liberal perspective be on this? normally that would be a lifetime tv for women, made-for-tv movie. you have the access into tasered this on making death threats against the father. i think normally liberals would take the woman's side on that but here suddenly for the first time ever the left's position was always trust the cop. always believe the cop. they never believed cops but in this case the guy who tasered,

not undisputed that the tasered the 10-year-old son and by the way liberals will say i will pick my on left, right, the 10-year-old asked to be saved-- taser. what if the 10-year-old said, i would like to know what it's like to be shot in the leg. >> host: in the death threat to the father. this manned should be-- >> guest: no but it is the hypocrisy of the left that is so stunning in that case. >> host: and the coverage was just amazing to me. >> guest: my position is sometimes cops are telling the truth and sometimes they are not but i need to know the facts. with liberals the cop is always wrong unless the cop is going after an attractive conservative for vice president. >> host: you also wrote in here when sarah palin's daughter came under attack right after she was chosen by mccain fur vice president, the candid obama seems so magnanimous and he says

people's families are off limits especially the children. his surjit continued to this full force attack. >> guest: this is what democrats always do. a liberal democrat can sit back and be magnanimous. i will raise this issue but they won't have to. the media does that for the man particularly in the case of obama. it is amazing this didn't come out during the campaign. how was he in a position to run as president in the first place? the media knocked out both of his opponents both of which probably would it be in him, first blair hull a very wealthy investment banker. he was way way ahead in the polls and then a couple of months before the primary election the media unsealed, sealed divorce records, which speaking as a lawyer i am wondering what is the point of sealing something if the media can show up and say this would be interesting mr. judge, can you please unsealed this but it happens routinely in the case of

an opponent to a liberal democrat so blair whole's divorce records run sealed and of course divorce records as i say in the book something said by an angry spells ayn divorce filing. they are not known as truth or angry partisan folk. you never know what the truth is. that is not what the purpose of divorce court is. people know that there are routinely laws in divorce cases but first to get the blair hold the force. obama winds the primary, then album is facing an incredibly tragic republican candidates, jack ryan stunningly good looking went through dartmouth, harvard business school worked for goldman sachs made hundreds of millions of dollars and left it all to teach and in inner cities call on chicago. rock-solid catholic, fantastic and even though this is illinois he was running to place a seat being vacated by peter

fitzgerald republican, so ryan probably would have beaten obama but once again luckily for obama his opponent was divorced from a hollywood actress and she claimed, so they fly out to california the media, it was the custody records because their son together is autistic and that is why jack ryan one of the records sealed to protect his son. no, we will unsealed these. and in all of the filings jack ryan accused his wife of having an affair. her response was i was driven into the arms of another man because you took me to sex clubs in new york and paris and proposition me. and this became big news, the big news big news and republicans being as pathetic as they usually are turned on jack ryan and four days after the records were unsealed he pulled out. so who does obama and up running

against? god bless them, alan keyes that senate he is a brilliant brilliant man but, he lost. >> host: jack ryan's family was not off limits? >> guest: no, the medias that senton does the dirty work for democrats which makes you want to wring their necks in this magnanimous way. >> host: let's just take a break and we will be right back. >> the most symbolically meaningful moment for me during my public investiture, and it was sitting in justice marshall's chair and taking the oath with my hand on justice harlan's bible. it was like history coursing

through me. >> heritage abuse was supreme court justices conclude friday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span with the soucy justice onya sotomayor and retired justice sandra day o'connor and get your own copy of our original documentary on the supreme court on the edu. is part of c-span's american icon collection a three disc set including programs on the white house and the capital one that many items available at c-span.org/store. >> host: hello it is michelis and with the claire boothe luce policy institute talking with coulter about your book "guilty" liberal "victims" and their assault on america. you know one of the chapters you write about during the primary season the media attack machine turned on their beloved bill clinton and said journalist at visit quintin head change rather they were telling the truth about it. what happened? >> guest: right, that is the chapter on the nonexistent

republican attack machine the imaginary phenomenon that scares liberals more than anything other than global warming, and that is, i didn't intend for this book to be as much about the media and politics as it was. i wanted it to be more on the victim culture and help victims are attacking and oppressing but as i was writing the book during the 30 year primary every time i walked for a room with the tv and i would hear some democrats fretting. and the republican attack machine gets ahold of this, and you just sit there like a dog listening to a high-pitched noise. i wish we had an attack machine. and i looked up on nexus how waffen republican attack machine had been he mentioned in a one year period. it was about 800 times. i have that in the book and both democratic attack machines was mentioned a handful of times by

conservative columnist saying what you know there's a democratic tett machine too but as i point out that is absurd. the republican national committee and the democratic national committee are like mosquitoes around the king kong of the media, trampling on cars and fighting japanese dextrose, and it is the media that gives the marching orders to the democratic party, not the of the way around that many people think it is the other way around and i have one example the obama campaign talking points basically verbatim after one of the debates which we know obama and mccain and listing it just as an objective news article for "the new york times" as sometimes they get the talking points from the campaigns but usually it is the media that is calling the shots in the democratic party and one example of that, you mentioned earlier and we didn't really talk about it and that was the story about

sarah palin rally is which by the way were much bigger than the obama rallies. they would be a week apart in sarah palin would get twice as many people. that in the great orator, and the story went around and there were angry denunciations' in these crazy right-wingers that whenever she would mention obama's someone in the crowd would yell out, kill him. just a little note to liberals, if you are going to make up a hoax you probably shouldn't do one that is going to set up the secret service. they take that kind of thing very seriously so needless to say the secret service officers spread throughout the speech. there lots of people with tape recordings part of the secret service spends at least two weeks investigating this claim that someone in the crowd was yelling out kill him and decided it was a hoax. to make up the story? did the democrats? no, it was the media. who came up with the story of

george bush shirking his national guard duty based on doctrine documents and a crazy man who literally foamed at the mouth when he was being interviewed by the press. then was dan rather, mary mapes and cbs news and mary mapes on the fake national guard story, called joan lockhart on john kerry's campaign to alert him that was their source on that story. so, it is the media that is spreading these stories and even the democrats are virtually blameless compared to the only attack machine that matters, the media attack machine. >> host: you wrote about how joe the plumber podlike became a halpenny ask a simple question about barack obama's economic policy. >> guest: right and i think that is relevant now as the democrats are telling us how fabulous it is going to be when the government has computerized records of all of our medical

forms. and they will be confidential, will they? i think joe the plumber's records were supposed to be confidential too vignette those came out and linda trip's confidential records came out in what was it 800 republican files were supposed to be confidential, the raw fbi data. remember there was a cry when someone at the state department looked at the visa records of obama and the story faded when it turned out they access the records of mccain and it was just some nosy person at the state department, so don't tell me our medical records are going to be safe and secure after what was done with surprising frequency to republicans or conservatives that are dangerous to the laughs. the only good news about getting all of our computer records on file in washington is the beaconed finally find out whether bill clinton had syphilis because he would never release his medical records you might recall. cavett allah on file there.

>> host: now, another thing you wrote about wonderfully was when sarah palin was at the convention in she said what is the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom and she pointed to relapse, lipstick and a few days after that obama's said you can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a. they said this is just an expression we have an illinois. this had nothing to do with sarah palin and the media seem to buy that. >> guest: we lost that argument. it was hashed out in my editor at one point wanted me to cut that because this has been hashed out. i said yeah but we lost and i saw alleged conservative saying i am sure he didn't mean that. a you know that is what the audience thought. you can see them in the background talking and whispering and laughing. i just think it's preposterous to say that that is and what he meant. i give various examples, one

unrelated to politics from dr. strangelove. that movie was being made but they came out after a kennedy bush shot in dallas. well, they had a very funny line but slim pickens. they are going through their emergency supplies and it is a candy bar, bubble gum, whatever it all is anslem says a fellow could have a pretty good time in dallas. they changed it to dais. his lips if you look closely you can say he was saying dallas but because of an antecede in event. what if right after dick cheney shot his friend in the face, somebody says that dog don't hunt or after we find out about that john edwards suspected love child, telling about edwards in st. don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. to save this is an expression. we know it is an expression. the point is that was said after probably the most famous

political speech, the most watched political speech i would say in elise 20 years and that was the most famous line from the most famous political speech in 20 years. sarah palin pointing to her lips and also iran to various headlines and there were a lot of jokes about sarah palin's lipstick and what is the difference between sarah palin and i think it was a muslim extremist, lipstick so all of these headline after headline, dozens and dozens of headlines in the two days between her speech and obama saying about how you can put lipstick on a pig. >> host: andy wrote about kathleen parker in "guilty" and some of these conservatives that turn so viciously on sarah palin. >> guest: suddenly conservatives we had never heard of-- that is right all the tv shows that won't have me on. i can't be a conservative

spokesman but you attack right-wingers and your phyllis schlafly or ronald reagan reincarnate. i kept checking with lots of conservative i know. have you ever heard of this kathleen parker? nobody had heard of her before. >> host: she certainly became a media favorite though, didn't she? we know how that works. you turn on your own and suddenly-- >> guest: or be a complete embarrassment. another example is i brought up the context of the total media blackout on the john edwards having an affair on his cancer stricken wife. for months there had to get my news for many of national enquirer. >>host:at the same time the "new york times" was running a front-page story about the supposed affair of mccain that apparently was totally bogus. >> guest: which they finally apologize for. i get my news from the inquirer so i and the real victim here

and find it comes out it is true but all of this time i have a memo from one of the editors at the "l.a. times" instructing his bloggers, the blogger should not mention the john edwards story. and "the washington post," the editor there said well he dropped at a mother to earlier, while he is not running for public office so i don't think you'll see wall-to-wall coverage. is that the standard now because i don't think rush limbaugh was running for anything when the drug story broke in most posthumously and an elevation of somebody, rush said least is the most important conservative in america. okay but how about ted angered and evangelical minister i have never heard of who suddenly becomes the pope of the protestants and by the way we don't have a pope. when in fact we don't even need a minister but we do go to them because it is fun. i know a lot of ministers and america.

i give speeches at megachurches all the time. i have never heard of this guy. i'm sure he is big in his little area. that is another one that cnn is doing a big profile on. he was not running for office and was not even a prominent conservative. here you have john edwards who was the last candidate for vice president a very likely possibility for you know the attorney general, some cabinet position total media blackout. the only way you knew he was caught in a totally embarrassing sex scandal was suddenly he was whitewash that of the news. if somebody brought him up the cut to a commercial break. >> host: it is unbelievable. you are a lawyer by training and i am wondering what you think of barack obama's impact on the supreme court? >> guest: judging by the rest of his domestic policy, probably will try to pack the court. i think it will be a disaster. we don't have any indication yet. we don't have any resignations

yet, but i mean he has tried to continue the policy, which i so love, of george bush in the war on terror. >> host: keeping defense secretary gates was very interesting. >> guest: we are not shutting down guantanamo, we are not pulling out of iraq. he is doing stupid things based on political correctness like moving the focus of the war in iraq where we were winning to afghanistan where we will probably lose. that is the stupidest thing imaginable and idid that purely out of political incorrect reasons because the base demanded that the democrats say we will pull lot of iraq but we do need to engage them some place as george bush and many people kept saying rather than on the streets of new york. we want the terrorist flypaper someplace over there and by moving it from barack-- iraq to afghanistan, he should be-- by peter the great had trouble in

afghanistan. the russians lost in afghanistan and that is not a good front fronts. we should have left in iraq. why did we do that? because we had to please the democratic crazies. >> host: i sort of wondered if the first couple of mornings of the breathing just scared the jesus thought of him. because we don't know how bad it probably is, but those are the real figures of the truth about it was where and what they are doing. >> guest: that is what cheney said and i don't know if it was, because they do have some democrat friends. and tyrannic campaign you know i kept going to them and saying are you crazy? you are going to vote for this guy? is going to pull troops out of iraq and shutdown guantanamo. the eltis hme, he is not going to do that so normal serious democrats just assume he is doing that for crazy basin by the way i can think of no circumstance in which a republican president would say something simply to please the

base that he didn't really mean. there may be something see double crossed the sun and then he will lose like george bush raising taxes or reagan didn't get around to abolishing the departments of education and given a choice between the department of education in the soviet union, i will admit it is close. >> host: but he did the right thing. you started your career is a lawyer and graduated from the university law school when did the law review there. you work for senate judiciary committee. you litigated for individual rights and i heard you when you go before smart young people. usaid don't go to law school. why not and what should smart young people be doing? >> guest: there are too many lawyers. i mean as a practical matter, it is not a particularly good way to make a living. it is based on billable hours. unless you are going to be a bag

trial lawyer and make america and much worse place and take a one-third recovery from these lazy personal injury lawsuits-- channeling babies before the jury, unless you are going to do something like that or "corporate counsel, there are too many lawyers and it is a very hard way to make a living. you were working weekends so one thing i do say to them that you really think you want to do tedious work in make xeroxes 20 hours a day, this is your life ambition and you love the footnotes. actually i kind of like the footnotes. >> host: you have got a lot of them in here. >> guest: glasco was fun, working for a judge is fun, but being many forms of government lawyer, senate judiciary, prosecutor, a lot of this can be fun. they don't pay well but if you really want to practice law, okay fine go to law school but what i find with a lot of

students is-- nobody wants to-- knows what it wants to do when he is graduating from college and i asked all of my successful friends in their 30's a few years ago did you know this is what you were going to be doing when you graduated from college? they said i had no idea this existed. a lot of college kids don't know what they want to do. once you are on that treadmill he will get sucked in and notice that the practicing lawyers whenever they get a chance to leap off the treadmill they take it. >> host: it is true but what you tell smart young people especially young conservative women? where do we need them most? >> guest: with their conservative side tell them to go into the media to become teachers are college professors, to go to hollywood. at their liberals i tell them to go to law school. >> host: now, you to a number of college lectures around the country. you do it for claire boothe luce and young america's foundation. you do it wonderful job.

when hillary clinton was running for senate in she would go around into college appearances she would have a restricted audience and often the left with control the questions. do colleges deborah let you restrict the audience and have restricted questions? >> guest: no, and that is really crazy. the reason that is craziness is, i believe that some point george bush had, they did have to have some restrictions. why is that? it is because liberals show up and starts screaming their heads off. that is what the problem is, crazy liberals disrupting you. you did not have college republicans disrupting speeches by michael moore i promise you and by the way i write about this my last book in the first chapter i described the college lecture circuit and one interesting is that harvard at the schools, it basically any ivy league school or the

equivalent they are not standing up and screaming and not throwing food. they are smart enough. .. and so if anything, a conservative speaker on a college campus would have a reason for restricting the audience. we don't, but i read the know why a liberal would need to restrict the audience.

well, in hillary's case she probably needed to restart a possible assassination threats. they come from the left. and hillary was getting crazy protests. >> host: now you're a graduate of cornell, university of michigan law. i can imagine they have any alumni who have seven "new york times" bestsellers. now the administrators at university of michigan bring you in to speak and mentor students who might aspire to careers like you? >> guest: zero yes. one figure i'd say. no, i think they're going over the curriculum. and what my course curricula was to make sure this doesn't happen again. how did she get out like that? cornell passing out to university of michigan law. you can take care of her, we didn't cause this problem. >> host: now the left on campus think they're so brilliant.

they claim victimhood. therefore tolerance. yet they notice when he spoke at the university of st. thomas in st. paul, minnesota, the college president condemned your speech even though she had been there, and the students were a mixed view audience gave you a standing ovation. and at the university of arizona a few years ago some of those three piatt u. >> guest: and missed. they throw like girls. >> host: they throw like girls. why don't these tolerance and anti-hate campaigns sweep these liberals who are obviously so intolerant of you. >> guest: that's right. and an idea of a college campus, what they are always bragging about well explained by bill may need to work two hours a week is that it would be, you know, freedom to investigate different areas and they don't want their freedom of speech and the freedom to engage in research and it would be wide open, free,

challenging debate. so the fact that college tuition is way outpaced inflation and they are paid more and more and more to teach two hours a week and then get every other year off entirely would be a little bit more justifiable if college campuses weren't exactly the reverse of that. they are the most intolerant, there's the least freedom to research. they are closed minded. they are angry at any dissent from the prevailing. i mean, you have more open debate on a subway platform than on a college campus. >> host: and the liberals have a stereotype if you where they try to convince people not to even listen even though you've written seven "new york times" bestsellers. there's other intriguing parts of your life that i suspect some of our audience doesn't know about. like that you are one of john kennedy's associates at the magazine, i think that may surprise some of our listeners. i wanted to ask you what are the

different kind of people like that have you worked with through the years? >> guest: while i do want to ruin her reputation, but i do think that's a tribute to john kennedy junior. i really do think george magazine was a terrific magazine and the west because he did have lots of different views. and he was interested in sponsoring debates and i mean he was just a magnificent man. and not a doctrine liberal at all. it paid off, jackie o keeping her kids away from the rest of the kennedys. >> host: it seems that way. >> guest: it was a really great loss. that would've been one of the most nonpolitical magazines out there but it couldn't survive his loss. he was george magazine. >> host: earlier in your career, and, you came to washington and you apply to be an intern at the national journalism center. and i have a little inside information actually because i have some relations who are involved there. >> guest: can we get back to

the book? i don't know what you're going to say but i get very uncomfortable when the subject is a sub one ideas. >> host: a year ago -- >> guest: it was not tongue-in-cheek. >> host: what do you think of her secretary? >> guest: no, i'll say one thing that sort of surprised me since the election that john mccain oddly enough seems to have actually been won over taxcutting because he voted against both of bush's tax-cut. he was a big opponent of amnesty. he wanted to shut down gitmo. a forgetting of the democratic party had rather have them get the blame rather than us. and it's just something about republicans. they go for the next guy in line. it's been a disaster. they will not learn. i think michael steele needs to punish the early primary states. that allows them to vote in the

primaries. if john mccain is a nominee and this was before he chose their appeal in who was the one i ended up voting for. you know, as between hillary clinton and john mccain i'll take hillary. they be about the same and we wouldn't get blamed for it. and also republicans would show a lot of us got blamed with amnesty. you want to support your president, your party is in the white house. and a lot of the spending went up, a lot of the things that hurt republicans and i think george bush was a magnificent president in many ways, particularly on foreign-policy and protecting this this country from terror. but he was a liberal in some ways and i mean other than the fact that the countries going to be a third world country on the basis of this stimulus bill, other than that little detail i am enjoying being in the insurgency, the angry insurgents instead of having to be the governing majority.

>> host: and almost makes you numb amah doesn't it? >> guest: gap. >> host: i think people are starting to wake up to it. let me ask you this. keeping your heart, is there a book i may be an esoteric topic that you'd kind of like to do even knowing it might not be a bestseller, maybe even a bio on clare boothe luce. >> guest: no, nothing on the nonfiction realm. the only unusual thing i'd like to write someday is a novel. but generally, your agent wins when you say that because everybody wants to write a novel. >> host: you could do something you like after seven months. i've done some interviews by liberals who are overtly hostile from katie couric that joy behar

the other day. >> guest: i liked that one. >> host: >> guest: i like that about her. >> host: is there any question from all these liberals that you wished they had asked you quiet >> guest: there are a few that i've been surprised they haven't asked me. one person asked in adobe does a liberal, maybe it was on a radio station. but it seems like such an obvious question on chapter two that got the most attention on single mothers. it seems like such an obvious question you think i would get it every place. what barack obama? and the answer is he was basically the equivalent of b. and i think everyone knows what they're not chapter. but quickly it is that single motherhood or single mothers are held up as the personification of selfless virtue. and how will this policy in that policy when they are the biggest

victimizers of their own children and then their children victimized their society when they become criminals in going well for her. but i've talked a lot about that and one of the interesting things i've found in research and not chapter is that adopted children turn out better than nonadopted children. so an unwed mother has two choices for her child. the best possible light for the worst possible life chances anyway obviously some overcome it weird that you're buying your child the worst lottery by not having a father. barack obama was raised by his grandparents and that does turn out fine. and he does seem to be the most well-adjustedcongolese victimized your curiously although, yet the most victims streak red of the presidential candidates. he is probably the least of victimized of them. hillary victimized by her own husband. mccain of course was a pow. iraq is out of charmed life. he has the victims street tread. >> host: what is your next

project? >> guest: top secret. i opie a while because more than half of what i earn will be going to pay for people who don't work for a living. i think i'm going to stop writing for a while. >> host: what a pleasure it's been to talk with you about your new book "guilty: liberal victims and their assault on america." thank you so much, and. >> guest: thank you.

university of colorado graduate and award-winning journalist dave: prevents a account at columbine. this program taped at "the los angeles times" festival of books is 45 minutes. >> who are eric and dylan? >> eric and dylan were the two killers at columbine. >> and eric was a psychopath and dylan was not. they were completely different people. and i spent ten years on this book and if question i get asked most often is why did they do it. and it took me about a year to

figure out that that's really the wrong question and we does in the wrong direction because there's eric and why he did it and they're still in and they are completely different people. >> thirty-one to talk about each of them? >> eric was a psychopath. and he was the mastermind of the plot. and he spent a couple years trying to figure out how he could destroy the entire world. that was his real fantasy as a 16-year-old roy. wipe out humanity always delete read or four or five people because those. a god can give life as well as take it away. and the illusion where there think they are god but there is unimportant as god and virtue -ism of the conflict. the key thing with the psychopath is no compassion, no empathy, no regard for the welfare of others or anything.

typically their nonviolence because it's just about their own needs so you see them as white-collar criminals, ponzi schemes, conmen, politicians. it might be able to think of a few recent ones that come to mind. but the classic psychopath. someone who would destroy other peoples lives,, destroy states are a country for the most turbulent gain on their own part. so that's a psychopath, typically nonviolence but when the person has a sadistic streak, too, then you typically get a ted bundy, jeffrey dahmer, or an eric karros. so that's the moldy comes from. >> band you want to talk about dylan? >> dylan is completely different. dylan klebold. dylan went along with the plan, but he was not driving it. when you look at their journals, eric's journal is filled with hate, hate, hate all the way through. i'll clean up one word but the

opening line is i hate the f. eworld annotates on every page. he started out wanting to kill and he ended up killing. but with dylan, it's completely different. he spent two years, dylan spent two years writing his journal and the most common word in his journal is loved. it's completely unexpected. to me, dylan was the revelation in this place. he was a loving sensitive boy with a whole lot of anger, but his anger was mostly directed inward. he was all angry at himself for being such a loser, such an outcast. he wasn't. it was objectively untrue but that's how he thought. dillon tried so hard loving the world and thought the world wasn't loving him back. and gradually he takes a really slow evolution. he is easily diagnosed as an adolescent diagnosis but that doesn't really tally when asked.

the interesting as watching for two years out of kitty looks like he would never kill under the influence of eric harris gradually turn that anger out to the rest of the world. and instead of blaming me, it's blaming all the rest of the people who did this to me and i'm going to take a lot of you with me and show on the way out. and so that they committed suicide in to get a lot of people with impaired >> in your book, columbine, he was deconstructing. he was 15, had tagged a lot on the missions. he was eric's number one go two guy and none of that mattered. what were the missions? >> well, the missions were really early symptom of something going awry. their sophomore year, eric and dylan did these missions. eric was grandiose about everything. he saw them as this big thing

where they're showing people how great they were. there were shooting off firecrackers, shooting out windows, aching houses. then they started superglue the mailboxes schatz. and what's interesting to me about the missions is that you see a progression with eric owing from petty vandal to petty thief to felony theft to murder. you didn't just start out a mass murderer. yet his own gradual criminal progression where if he hadn't done something like columbine it's pretty clear he would've become a career criminal of some sort. but he had a sadistic streak so he wanted to kill people for very simple reason. for his own aggrandizement and because he enjoyed it. he wanted to have fun and he wanted to show us. you know, i would say it's understanding a psychopath doesn't take a whole lot to understand what one is.

it's a very simple complex. it's hard to believe that it's true, that somebody will kill someone. he wanted to kill hundreds of people but would do that for the most petty gain to himself. that was enough. >> april 20, 1999, was the date of columbine massacre at the high school there. but eric started planning this in 1997. >> yes, yes. >> how did you discover that? >> well, they kept lots of records. eventually after a seven-year legal battle, jeffersontown he or jeffcoat released nearly a thousand pages of writings of the killers. they each left a journal. i left school assignments, also eric wrote on his website about all he wanted to do. and then they need videotapes explaining themselves in the last month they decided that wasn't enough. so the fbi agent of the case was a major character in the book, sort of the unwinding of the detective story. he said that -- the >> what was his name?

>> supervisory agent duane. a very famous psychologist. an odd coincidence happened to take over the case. but he said in his entire fbi career he never saw a killer who died with this much material explaining themselves. so we have an extraordinary amount of information together. i spent the last several years digging through all this information and talking with various psychiatrists and psychologists that the fbi brought on the case to understand them. it's very clear-cut once you've gotten through the information. it's hard to make up their handwriting. it took quite a while to be about to decipher what they're doing. but once you understood their psychological condition it's a lot easier to understand them, too. you have to understand what a psychopath is and how they take to really understand how to interpret eric, so it doesn't sound like the ravens.

he follows a very classic pattern. >> did wayne and kathy harris recognize that eric was in trouble? >> that he was troubled. and that he got in trouble. they had no idea the extent of trouble and almost nobody recognizes a psychopath. if you think about, like hannibal lecter u.s. to really throw up a hollywood version of a psychopath is never going to tell you that they're going to eat your liver. ill be the last person to know they are psychopath. the first classic book on that topic the by herbert cozzi titled the book the mask of the unity. because there are two clusters of characteristics of a psychopath. one is their total lack of empathy, their lack of compassion for everybody, for anyone. but the more important characteristic was the ability to disguise that lack of empathy as if wearing a mask. psychopaths are nearly always charming.

they're the people we turn to to trust. afterward, they are the person you turn to for help. that is most likely the psychopath. that's how good they are. so parents never recognize they have a psychopath in the house. and the harris appearance do that eric was acting out in a gotten in trouble sometimes. they were having and see a psychiatrist who put them on the left. that wasn't strong enough. they disciplined him strongly. they knew they had a kid acting out that they had no idea why. and i want to drop one other idea. for people to consider. eric was gobbling up shakespeare, writing papers on king lear and macbeth, tested urbandale, or of goodies. and he would write the most amazing apologies. so you have a kid who act up and gets in trouble and then when he explains himself he shows deep other remorse. because shakespeare and, you

know, when he is talking to you and how an king larry regular and a similar thing there. you don't give a kid like that a lot of latitude. you have a brilliant kid who is doing really well, sometimes we get in trouble and accept. they knew they had a problem child, but what kind of parent thinks i wonder if he's considering mass murder? >> did issue and tom recognize anything in the dylan? >> they recognize depression. they knew he was depressed. they had no idea how extreme it was. they did know he was suicidal. he talked for two years in his journal about suicide. they also knew that he had a really shy kid and that he had been shy since he was a little kid, painfully shy. and when he went to high school you felt like a fish out of water. he had been in a gifted program in grade school, really enjoyed it there, spent years in a small cluster of kids were was cool to be a brain. eddie went to high school and he

felt awkward there. he didn't talk to people right away until he got to know them. they knew he was struggling, but they had no idea it was that bad. he's like a lot of teenage kids. i think the pen of the scary thing about columbine is that dylan klebold was a typical high school kid. a kid like that to get involved with an eric harris could happen anywhere in america. >> you write in your book that eric harris was typical. he had a lot of girlfriends, was smart, not friends. >> you let a typical life. but psychopaths really lead a double life. what's going on on the inside, whether they're planning, whether they're ripping you off or planning to kill you, they live a life as their cover. it's what they need to do. think of a ted bundy. he was working on the crisis hotline helping suicide people. it's all this cover.

he wasn't interested in helping other people, but that's what they do. so eric was faking a life while other things are going on inside. >> who was cassie bernall? >> she was a christian martyr who believed in god. it became one of the biggest stories from columbine and one of the biggest redemption stories. there are a lot of great redemption stories in columbine and i go through a lot of them in the book. the particular one didn't have been and it was a misunderstanding. the story went that cassie was hiding underneath the table and a killer came up and asked her she believed in god at gunpoint. she said yes and then was killed. and she became this huge christian martyr worldwide. it was sort of a following of her. turned out there were two girls in the labor involved. and what happened with cassie is she was hiding underneath the

table, praying for her life. eric walked up to the table, slapped it with his hand, said picabo, put the nose of a shotgun under the lip of the table and shot her in the head. she died instantly, never had a chance to say anything, terribly tragically. meanwhile, another part of the library is a second part of the library. she was hit with a lot of the blast. she had pellets up and down her body. she was bleeding, crawling away, dylan came across her and started taunting her. after she believed in god. she said yes. they had an exchange about it. he asked her why, departs back and forth, then he got distracted by something eric was doing. he didn't care who lived and died. just let her go. so she lived to tell. which is also an uplifting story actually. aggregate data she believes in god or fesses her faith and then led. but there was another boy under

one of the tables who overheard this, didn't know either of them and somehow mistakenly thought that it was cassie who it said it. he started telling people completely honest mistake. the story spread, the word went and we reporters really never did our job of checking in and asking grieving the dems, how do you know it was cassie? how well did you know where? did you recognize her voice? those kind of tough questions. we ran with the story and allow that to become one of the biggest myths of columbine. the mac speaking of myths, there was a headline that today's after columbine that this is the actual denver post from that day. healing begins april 22, 1999. why is this a miss in your view? >> well, i think that was an unfortunate thing that they regretted and everyone involved with columbine regrets because -- and if i could give one piece of advice to

communities who go through these tragedies is don't rush to healing. and when you talk to any mental-health workers or any pastors who have done funerals it takes months and years for people to deal with their grief. and we sort of tried to rush them into it. it's been a day and a half, he'll now. you have a couple weeks and then back on this. many of the people really didn't start understanding their own grief until later or more out. the crisis group that was brought into the high school to deal with students with poster manic stress disorder and so forth didn't start to reach their peak as they should and then stated that peak level for a juror and a half. so trying to take a grieving person a day and a half after and say start getting better, they're not ready to get better yet. and you really need to back off and give them space. because they felt terribly, terribly rushed into it. and they felt bitter and resentful for years after that.

>> dave cullen, how do you approach the writing of this book? >> writing? well, it took me several tries. i first take a stab at a book a year after columbine and i was going to be a small e-book. and i posted that way. at that time just based on the killers and also unraveling the mess. they were so many minutes. most of what we think we know about columbine is wrong. the basic things about them targeting jocks, even at being a school shooting. so i was trying to unravel those myths and i wrote it the first time with myself as a protagonist trying to unravel this and a detective story about what really happened in columbine. meanwhile, i was trying to understand the killers better and really understanding what toppings them took me a couple years and the story just wasn't ready. so it was really the five-year point where i published a piece called the depressive and the psychopath where we had the fbi

team for the first time diagnose the killers. and i started over at that point and realized i wanted to stories, the before story in the after story. the before story of the killers, how they evolved into killers can do with such a gradual process and it is so interesting to see other developed. and then i wanted to do the after story, the victims and survivors, what these killers did to them. and so i intercut chapters so you had both of the story simultaneously, but i wrote them separately. i wrote all of the eric story at one point over five months. then, all the dylan story after nearly five months. and when i was working on eric, all he did every day was reduced or no, listen to the music you listen to, watch the film feel like, just amberson felt in his world, reduced a timer, then write about him, talk to the psychiatrist about him. try to work a puzzle they didn't understand about him, just complete eric immersion and then

the same thing with dylan. i actually got depressed unexpectedly writing the dylan story. i ended up having to channel into his personality. i wasn't able to convey dillons depression and his loneliness until i got that way myself. and when i tried to do was not fit fit here if i were describing to you not figure in figure in a chair, wearing a light blue shirt. what i try to do is turn the camera around and be inside you and project what the world looked like to you, what you were seen, what you were thinking of which were feeling. and present each of the killers and cared or is in this book from the inside. and that's what he intended to do. >> when you say you got depressed while writing dylan, how serious? >> well, not serious. that wasn't actually the worst. the more serious was writing about the big m., actually.

i have a secondary post-traumatic stress like medical workers and cops get dealing with tragedy. i had that in the first year and i thought it was fine with it. i got a relapse seven and a half years then when i wrote two of the most difficult chapters. i wrote the chapter about the coach sanders' death. he was the wrote teacher who died saving children. and then bled to death tragically. he is one of the main characters in the book. there's a lot of uplifting stuff about him in the book, but that was the hardest to write. and then unexpectedly, the chapter about dylan's funeral and his parents in their grief hit me. and shortly after that there was a wave of copycat shootings. there were four in ten days. there was the amish shooting in

pennsylvania and there was one very close to columbine taught climate canyon in columbine. after that i couldn't work and was in pretty bad shape. but it helps to have studies post-traumatic stress for the book and understand it. i was still naïvely slow to understand my own situation and that i needed to get help. that after he i realize i'm suffering from what i've been writing about. do the same thing as the people and get help. and it helps that i had spent time with some of the world foremost authorities. one who was on the authorities.

i called him and he talked to me for about an hour on the phone. i'd been going to a psychologist myself, but frank really helped me. he understood and was also an expert on columbine and had been through it. so we understood me and backup maker. there were a couple dark days, but that also loved writing the book. i love writing so i don't want to complain about my job. but there are some tough days doing this book. >> well, talk to us about some of the survivors and the m.'s families okay, the survivors and victims. there are all across the map. and one of them was this idea of universal but them or the universal response. and one of the things that bothers me with all due respect to victims. whenever i see when there is a plane crash or other tragedies they get a lot of news coverage.

when they're interviewing victims or person on the plane, very for gimli they will slip into the second person and will start saying, well when you first hear the thud, you panic and you start doing this and i think a lot of us internalize this idea that theirs is universal response. and now that i've been through this i wouldn't say this to the person, but i start thinking i bet they're somebody behind you didn't panic at all, just as thinking logically. i bet there's someone on the plane who thought this is kind of exciting. everybody does things completely differently. and with a tragedy like this, columbine, responses were all over the map. so i chose ten major characters to follow through this. and i try, you know, to get a boy and a girl, an adult, people who were injured, people who died, people with different kinds of responses. there was linda sanders am of the widow of dave sanders, who really fell apart.

dave sanders was her rock. and she was put in a horrible situation and then was the person who supported her. kathy bernall and her family. a family who thought their daughter was a murder and wrote a book about and then having a pulled out from under them. and then i talk about patrick, the boy in the window who win out the window on live tv, millions of people thought him. he tumbled out a second story window and the s.w.a.t team caught him just in time. most people didn't know he had a buckshot pellets in his brain that travel 6 inches into his brain. he was half paralyzed, dragged himself to that window over a three three hour. at one side of his body was never expected to walk or talk again. he had an amazing recovery and forgive the killers in the first week or two. extraordinary. so these people are all over the

map and how they dealt with their grief, how painful it was, also the principal, sort of really let the kids out of this. frank deangelis, they're all very different. so i'm to show you this person deals like this, this person is like the him and give you many different facets of this. and each one of these people had a really interesting personality and had a fascinating story. so i also want to make it interesting for the reader. i didn't want this to be about the ui to read about columbine to learn something, like eating your vegetables. i wanted it to be an engrossing tale. and luckily for me, as a journalist and a writer, thousands of people were involved in the story. there were 2000 kids in that school and many thousands of people were involved in different ways. so i snatched up ten of the most interesting people who i'd fascinating experiences and i were very different from one another to try to as well as possible sort of the whole story

of columbine in one place. >> did the big dump in the survivors and the victims families in the survivors willingly talk with you while you were writing? >> most of them did talk to me. and again i selected out a handful. i had met nearly all of them at different points along the way for different reasons. some early on were resistant to talk into the press and some were more open about talking to the press, but over time, nearly all of them needed to talk to the press for their own reasons. for example, there is a huge controversy with the library where most of the killing took ways. and the families of the 13 dead wanted that library tour announcer noted ever step foot in it again. so they did a series of press conferences and meetings with the press where we got to meet them. a lot of them wanted to tell their stories i got to meet them through various means along the

way. and then once i selected the different people i was going to focus on, all of them except for the bernall family, kathy's parents agreed to participate. and i had otherwise her mom had written a memoir so there was a great deal of information there. one journalist who was very close to them gave me her fieldnotes, which really helped. she has been a lot of intimate hours with the bernall family. the few characters who weren't willing to participate there was a great deal of to draw from. >> are most of the families in the littleton, colorado area? >> i'm not actually sure if they ball state in the same homes. i kept closer with the families i talk to. i know that the bernall family left and i really wanted to come back to the area. a couple different families, i

shouldn't use the names, a couple left early on because they need to get out of the pressure cooker and then some of them came back because they felt their friends as a support base was also there. that was their home and that's what it's all comparable. for some of them ended up coming back. a lot of kids went to college, too. >> what about the hare says and the clean bowled? >> bickley bold are still in the same house they lived in. the harrises stayed in the house and then sold it. and truthfully i'm not sure where they are. they kept an extremely low profile. they've never spoken spoken to a journalist. i heard they were in the area, but i'm not sure about it. by all accounts, those families have a difficult time. i have frankly spoken to many people who are much closer -- >> but you did not speak to them? >> they've only spoken to david

brooks one time and then never again to any other journalist. but i talk to people who work close to the klebolds. they lost a son, too. and they also had a mass murderer in the house. and of course that's terrible for them and they were taken by surprise. so they were sort of reading two different ways. their pastor referred to them early on as the two lonely people in the world. because unless you think of the parents of charles manson or jeffrey dahmer or someone like that, they don't have anyone who understands what they're going through. they are in uncharted territory. they had a lot of friends. their pastor who's also in the book is a wonderful man. the everyone in the area look up to him. he lost his job essentially because he supported the klebolds and did dylan leiby

funeral. >> tell us about dylan's funeral. >> first of all, it was very private. it was less than a week after columbine and the family was afraid to have a funeral. or who might go. they did it in secrecy. they had not been going to a church regularly. but they had attended saint philips lutheran church at one time. and a friend got word to the pastor don marks house then. they didn't have a pastor and they needed someone to bury their son. so he agreed to do it. and there were only a few of them, a dozen people there. he prepared something, but when he got there he realized they needed to just throw that out and just talk. and so he had everybody in the group, just close friends of the family, dylan's parents and his brother talk about dylan.

and the brother particularly wise, he was just a straw. he didn't know what to make of it and what to do about it. so then, pastor don quoted and selected a passage from scripture, which was just perfect. and forgive me, i should know how to pronounce the name. but absalom from the old testament, king david's son who one point had overthrow king david as the king of israel or judeo. i don't know my old testament as well as they should. but he led a revolt to overthrow david. and david had to put it down. but you give us explicit instructions to save his son, not allow his son to be killed. edward came back to him that they had won the battle, save

the kingdom, but a solemn hyde died. so david melt down and cried out. i can't remember the exact quote. it was something like a lord, why haven't you taken a solemn my son. don realized that in the entire bible that was the passage that most, that tom and sue could most empathize with and could understand of something to have them taken away. and they knew their son had done a horrible thing but it was also still their son and they wish they could have their son back. and that's what kind of a guidon is, too, to understand people and how that compassion. and to hand dylan with a mass murderer who i done a horrible thing. he wasn't the pastor of dylan anymore he was the pastor of his parents and i was the best way

he could help them. and you know, it didn't matter. they were still two human beings and they needed help. >> dave cullen, have the big m.'s families and the survivors moved on or are they still holding onto this? >> air all over the map. i think most of them have moved on. i just went to the ten year commemoration on the 10th anniversary. and it was actually really surprising to me. it was a little different than the other events. there have been so many different gatherings over time. a lot of them based on crises, different things that had come up and evidence released. and then some just audubon anniversaries, one, two, and five. when the groundbreaking were bill clinton came and spoke eloquently. and when the memorial was opened. and overall these different events where everyone came back

together, early on we never knew how many more of these would be because they're often crises related and there could be five more of these, ten more, nobody knew. but by the time we got to the opening of the memorial, which i believe was eight years out, everybody knew we were just about done and all the crazies had passed. and that one was different. and everyone had this feeling that we're almost done here as a group memorializing us and the speeches were really interesting that day because they had a service where they prepared speakers. and so many of them spoke about closure and sort of angry at the concept of closure. and frustrated with people trying to impose because they hear closer as, are you still complaining about that? move on with your lies. that's the pressure they're feeling and there was this pushback of quit telling us to quit grieving, essentially, that

was really the main theme that day. and everybody sort of new is the second to last one. there was one more and we wouldn't be seeing each other anymore. and interestingly enough, i think they got sort of over the hump at that one, most of them because the one this month were the ten year anniversary with much more tranquil. it was much more placid. there was no talk about closure. but they didn't feel like they needed to push back on anything. most people were moving on. the girl who really did say she believed in god spoke on behalf of the big them. she quoted robert frost. hopefully i can get this right because i haven't written this down. she quoted him saying that all i need to know about the rest of my life can be summarized in three words. it goes on.

and that's how she feels. she also told me on facebook actually that i bear no ill will towards eric and dylan anymore. she had to move on with her life. you know, carrying that anger and pain and grief ron was holding her down and she's happier without it. and not everybody is out that place and they don't need to be but a lot of them are. and this month it was really different. it was more tranquil. i think most of the people are at a pretty good place right now. >> while mr. deangelis is still the principal at columbine here in 2009. has the school changed? other new procedures? >> there are new procedures. basically it's not much different. the library did get torn down. a library set right about the cafeteria where the killers plan to destroy the whole thing. that feeling/floor was taken

also the library is a wide-open to floor atrium. it's beautiful. you can see the rocky mountains from there. they built an addition for the library. the parents raise more than $3 million to do that. the place where danny and rachel were killed outside has been reconfigured a little bit that the hillside and the external stairs. they did cosmetic changes, but mostly they left at the same because it was very important for the survivors to feel they have lost their school. there's a really important psychological concept that kids can't feel this is taken away from them. they don't want to feel that the killers one. so they had to make several changes so it wouldn't feel, and sound different. so the clock of shoes sounds a little different. so subconsciously kids know something is different but can't put their finger on it. new paint and not sort of thing. so they changed that the mostly it's the same and kids now act as if nothing ever happened.

>> dave cullen, there had to be lawsuits and money exchanged it for paid, who got sued, what's the standing? >> are a tremendous number of lawsuits. everyone you can imagine.stewed. starting with the killer's parents. but then the school district, mr. dean himself, all the sheriff's department, the maker of the drug eric harris was on, anyone involved in the gun transactions. a huge list of people. most of those were eventually thrown out. the lawsuits than were so settled out of court. the families agreed to settlements. most of the money idly enough was paid by the killers. homeowners policy. >> not the school district? >> the school district in sheriff's department made minor

payouts, but the bulk of the money came from the killer's parents from their insurance policies. and apparently if your son killed someone, that's part of your home insurance. that was stunning to me. so there was a fair amount of money distributed to them. there were five holdout families, six initially, but then five to true to their word had said all along that the lawsuits were not about money. they wanted information. and when they offered the money came, they said we're not taking it. we want information. and finally, a deal was brokered where those five families and their lawyers sat down in a courtroom with the four parents of the killers. and they were allowed to ask any questions they wanted, got complete answers. that was the agreement that the parents were to answer every single question. it went on for about a week of depositions. the deal was that those five families could get all the answers they wanted, but the

rest of the world could not. an appearance would be free to talk as freely as they wanted and in the records of those depositions would be destroyed. and after this happened, then the transcript were set by a magistrate to be destroyed as per the agreement. and an outcry arose over that. a federal judge got involved than in deciding whether they should be made public even though there was an agreement they had not. and after several more years and just two years ago, just a few days before virginia tech, he made the decision that those records would be reached in 20 more years. so in 2027, we will find out what the parents had to say about their kids. right now i believe there in the national eye cards. in 18 years we'll find out what the parents had to say. hopefully the parents will speak sometime before that. i think they can shed some light on this. that's the one remaining element

is what the parents can tell us. and hopefully they will. >> are you done with columbine? >> am i done with columbine? i laugh because i think so, but i've said that before. yeah, after maybe a year or less after columbine and "the new york times" asked me to do or reported piece on the national barbary convention in denver and i spent four days doing not and i was so thrilled to do something so light hearted, so just nothing violent here, just fun interesting people having fun. and i decided at that time and never do another story on murder as long as i live. it was a huge emotional relief to do something else. but then i kept coming back. so i think i'm almost done with columbine. my editor has also talked to me about perhaps the paperback addiction i might have a brief afterword or something. and i'm still talking to you.

i've got the rest of this tour. i'm doing a uk to her in a week. but i think i'm just about done. i'd like to be done. i felt a huge relief after he turned in the final page as that i didn't even notice right away, but in the next month friends started asking me, you know, you're -- you seem happier. are you dating someone? really, is something going on? no, i guess they turned up again. because it was finally off my chest. it was for better or worse. i was marking those pages that. i got in trouble for doing too much. once i set those things off, for better or worse it was out there and i couldn't change it. so i felt done and somewhere in here i knew in a different way that i was done and i'm much

happier person. >> dave cullen.com in case you would like to see some of this. this is the book, columbine, published by 12. here are some of the journals of dylan klebold, the copies obviously. of dylan and eric karros is the journals. and here is the denver post from two days later. dave cullen, thank you. >> thank you very much, peter. i really enjoyed it.

>> booktv at candidate but ready for newspaper editor and publisher harold evans for the publication of his autobiography, "my paper chase: true stories of vanished times." the party was held at the british ambassador's residence in washington d.c. "the new york times," the economist, financial times, and the new yorkers that the dead "my paper chase: true stories of vanished times" as one other notable nonfiction books of 2009. some mac.

>> thank you. >> the book was written and then the paperback was done and then contemporary systems got a grant to turn it into a teaching college. and it has taken us two years to get it ready, but we have been teaching right now for the academic year of 2010. and the website is interactive, television voices, books, references. and i didn't create it. somebody else created it but i do all the speaking for it. he is a remarkable man. i was so pleased about being involved with him. he is certainly told the story. and he told me that he didn't read the book when it came out. but somebody arty bought it and stuck it on himself and then

just saw this book and said what the hell is that copper thing? so i picked it up and dipped into enough of it. >> it's a pleasure. >> how are you enjoying both jobs? >> very much. and i learned when we were reading your book that we grew up very close to each other. >> hi, welcome. arguer reporter? >> i am not. >> what are you? >> i'm a writer. >> you do fiction? >> no, i do magazine. i mean i'm not reporting here. i didn't mean not. >> but yes, i write for the daily beast. >> i love writing for it.

i like following the comments. there was a piece this morning on sarah palin. anyway, here's to you. i've got to say hello to some people. hi, welcome. >> i'm kyl gibson significant other. it's nice to see you. it's a lot of car crashes. you know, a few white knuckle moments, but it's always fun. but you know a bit about that, don't you? >> i do what i'm told. kyl is so imaginative. when we've done a few things together. she's amazing. >> she's very special. she's been with the flu this

past week. well, use my dock are, too. but anyways, congratulations on your book. can't wait to read it. i'm sure it's going to be fascinating. >> it's bad enough writing it without promoting it. >> but isn't that part of the program? if you can just turn it in and be done with it. >> i'm always apprehensive. i was a publisher and so i know what a foot right or and wooden author is through. i would say what the hell is he doing next? >> was so interesting one of these days when i do heavy for myself for a while i would love to ditch her views on how this whole business has changed so much in the past five or ten

years. it's just unbelievable. >> it has changed. and the good is -- and tina is starting a digital book company. it's bad in a sense just like with newspapers so much doesn't get done. so we could talk about that. >> well we shall sometime. congratulations. cheers. >> thank you, thank you. >> tell kyl to get well soon. [inaudible conversations] >> as you were. i'm keeping going. >> hi, can i welcome