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orie mac amy goodman, host of pacifica radio "democracy now!" talks to raj patel, author of "the value of nothing" and namoi kelin, author of "the shock indoctrine" about their books, the economy, the earthquake in haiti and other topics. [applause] >> what a great honor it is -- can you hear now? what a great honor it is to be here with two colleagues, who are my media heroes. and to be here on this cold night that approves those meetings in copenhagen were about something very real. yes, the whole issue of sorption than global warming when we are having these kind of arctic my.

but let me introduce the two guests tonight. namoi kelin is a remarkable public intellectual scholar and activist. her work is both groundbreaking and breathtaking. when naomi was in iraq as the rest of the pundits for talking about president bush not knowing what he was doing she came out saying no, he has a very clear plan. she wrote a piece in harper's magazine called bad debt years zero building iraq and the yukon utopia. she broke through the small circle of commons that we are used to seeing on all the channels. who knows so little about so much, explaining the world to us and getting it wrong. that's right, she broke through with what very few people have on television, thoughts.

thoughts no one else seems to dig up. she elucidates what the real plans are. but namoi klein is not just a critic. she's a chronicler and leader of grass-roots movement around the world. with her husband they did the film that take about argentina and the retaking of the factories. before that, she wrote the book no logo and tonight here in new york she is celebrating the tenth anniversary of that publication, which is as relevant or perhaps more relevant today than it was ten years ago. as the rest of the media was saying what is the battle seattle, naomi already written a book about that to -- about it. but absolute friends recommends namoi klein as the top of the reading that should be done if you want to understand the post cold war corporate power.

and i think her latest book certainly proves that, "the shock indoctrine," the rise of capitalism. [applause] i'm purposefully introducing raj second because i didn't want to say we are talking of the value of nothing. [laughter] but that is the title of his new book, "the value of nothing" how to reshape market society and redefine democracy and i was excited to hear that he's just learned that it's hit "the new york times" best-seller list. [applause] there is hope and people do care. raj patel is the author of

stuffed and starved, he's an activist and academic. he's been held as a visionary for his foresight when it came to the food crisis and one of the things we are going to talk about will begin with haiti and he talks eloquently about what happened in haiti. raj has worked for the world bank and the world trade organization and protested both on four continents. [laughter] he is currently a visiting scholar at uc-berkeley center for african-american studies -- for african studies, and then on a research fellow with the school of development studies at the university of calls holum atoll. he's also a fellow at the institute for food and development policy, also known as food first. and most importantly, his wife is about to have a baby any day now. [applause] and it's nice to be able to

smile and celebrate life and a very difficult night like tonight, where who knows exactly what is in the death toll in haiti. the horror that started unfolding last night about 5:00 when we learned that there had been an earthquake. i think karfur is the epicenter and now the numbers we don't even know. it could be 100,000 one haiti official was singing. the archbishop of haiti was killed, the u.n. mission was killed. and we don't know certainly anywhere near the number of people as people are being dug out as the wheels are still being heard and that is where i think we should begin tonight because both of you have so eloquently talked about the

issue. i think it's interesting, naomi, in your book, "the shock indoctrine," though you didn't address it i was asking you about haiti and you said it was a chapter she had written and in the upright and for the nation magazine on haiti. but i think we are really talking about twin earthquakes. twin crises that have rocked haiti. one is the natural catastrophe they are dealing with today, the worst earthquake in what, two sentries. but then there is what is human need and that is the earthquake, the hurricane, the crisis of poverty and how that exacerbates the affect of this earthquake. and that's where i wanted to start with raj patel. in stuff and start to talk about haiti to read the corporate media does a good job of getting there and showing us the horror

of what is happening and you should demand of all the networks they stick with it so that we know people do care, people are hungry for information about what is happening to our fellow and sister human beings in haiti. i think it is proven over and over again. so we are seeing this natural catastrophe and fold, but put this in the context of the politics of this poorest country in the western hemisphere. >> haiti was an inspiration. it's important to remember haiti was the site of the first slave rebellion, and the gabelli in 1974 is something that we need to absolutely continue to be inspired by. but for that, it has been relentlessly punished by the year up and in the united states. it is a country that has been through a prolonged occupation by the united states. and the weapons the united

states most recently leveled against haiti have been predominantly economic. haiti at the beginning of the 1980's crew the majority of its own rise. it was able to grow and able to sustain the majority of its population domestically but because the people of haiti had made choices about a government that were left wing, what it wanted to have a left-wing government it was punished by two u.s. presidents, president reagan and clinton, and both of those presidents in post economic structural adjustment policies that meant that haiti was forced to open up suddenly its food markets to the so-called free market. of course there is no free markets for food, and the u.s. royce industry according to the cato institute in some years gets almost $1 billion a year in subsidies. so on the one hand you had

hatian rice farmers, certainly the poorest people in the western hemisphere, competing against u.s. rice farmers getting 14 million in subsidies so it is not surprising that the hatian rice farmers for the economic signals clearly and started by exploiting themselves and then responded by going to the cities and abandoning farming, the only rice forming that exists now when haiti is subsistence. it's not for the market. and so haiti was intentionally made dependent on the u.s. rice imports and of course when the price of rice went up in 2008 by 30% in a single day on the international market, there were what we called food riots or white term with some colleagues food rebellions, and those rebellions were obviously demand for rice. but they were also expressions of political change.

demand for political change, and in fact every so-called food like it always has a political component. the news media will make it into a food right after it's happened and what they will see his pictures of the tires have burning in the road and there will be some breathless commentary on the people were just here and he won't believe what they were doing and they were trying to smash their way into getting food. and of course access to food is always part of the food riot but the food protests in haiti were also publicly article that demands for the return of [inaudible] who was displaced in a series of coups. but these are to kaput process these have been systematically stamped out. and so what we have an haiti is a long history of u.s. intervention, of using markets as a means to subjugate the

population and pumice the populations for their own desire for autonomy. and yet in the reconstructed media picture haitians are portrayed as not pertinent dee dee kaput clear to collect an organized and thoughtful but merely as people running from one chaotic thing to another in search of food and that is something we need to absolutely redress and so when we see these images on to defeat could tbb to insist the medium of only portray what is happening but give context. >> before we talk about how haiti fits into your idea of the dee dee chris "the shock indoctrine," naomi, just a little black history. you talked about haiti being born out of slave uprising in 1804. the u.s. congress for decades would not recognize the republic of haiti because it was born of a slave uprising and that congress members and u.s. congress were afraid of what inspired u.s. slaves to rise up.

1915 to 34, the first u.s. occupation by the u.s. marines of haiti and then when the president was elected in 1990, almost immediately with and i hear the coup as it has been proven was also backed by the central intelligence agency are steed was forced out for three years. from 91 to 94, came back to serve his term in about a year. i directly have the experience of the second time the president was forced out of 2004 because i followed a small delegation when he was whisked onto a plan by u.s. military and security within the first lady and they were flown off to they didn't know where. it turned out to be the central african republic, the capitol where they were held basically in captivity. the small delegation led by

congressman maxine waters, we will have her on "democracy now!" tomorrow to talk about what her thinking on haiti is now. congressman maxine waters and the founder of transafrica along with the jamaican parliamentarian who is coming with an invitation for them to return to this hemisphere to come to jamaica. i followed them in a plane and all too small plane. we flew from miami across the ocean to cape verde and we ended up in the central african republic where they went to retrieve the air speeds and succeed and as we flew back through africa and across the atlantic and ultimately landed in jamaica the threats were coming in fast and furious from the bush administration from secretary of state colin pa will and others and rumsfeld singing

they were not to enter this hemisphere to which randall robinson said on the plane whose hemisphere and we are certainly not to come here haiti. whose country? the arab states return to jamaica but were not able to go back to haiti and they now live in south africa in exile. so that is the story of the attempt at democracy in haiti. how would you put that comiskey but in coming into the context of the shocker doctrine, the capitalism. to get through now from the hurricanes to this earthquake. >> thank you, amy. that history is so important you both provided in terms of understanding this particular political moment and some of the things we need to watch for as the world rightly rushes to

haiti's aid because eight -- we are in this context of centuries of trying to bend to haiti to our western will to discipline this fiercely independent country using all means available, and debt has always been the primary tool of disciplining haiti from the period of independence. it to the extent we have these debates in this country about reparations for slavery and the right of african-americans to be paid in some form for the theft of their ancestors and broken promise of 40 acres and a mule. what we often don't hear is that liberated slaves in many cases had to pay reparations to their former owners for their freedom and the greatest example of that

is haiti. when haiti was forced to pay reparations to france said it began in this debt. it was never actually free and this has been an ongoing battle and in fact this was one of the furious about why france was so determined to get rid of him was, and the u.s. was there was a lawsuit that the president was in the process of selling the french government for the original debt in post on haiti. it became more sophisticated over the years and as spoke about the structural adjustment policies become the tool for discipline in haiti but as i read about in the shock doctrine, the crises are often used now as the pretext for pushing through policies cannot push through under times of stability. countries and period of extreme crisis are desperate for any kind of money and are not in the

position to negotiate fairly the terms of the exchange and i just want to pause for a second and read you something which is pretty extraordinary. i just put this up on my website. the headline is haiti: stop them before the shock again. this went up a few hours ago, three hours ago i believe on the heritage foundation web site. i missed the suffering, crisis in haiti offers opportunities to the u.s.. in addition to providing immediate humanitarian assistance, the u.s. response to the tragic earthquake in haiti offers opportunities to reshape haiti's long dysfunctional better met and economy as well as improve the image of the united states in the region. and then goes on. now i don't know whether things are improving or not because it

took the heritage foundation 13 days before they issued 32 free-market solutions for hurricane katrina. we put the document on our web site as well. it was closed down, the housing projects turn the gulf coast and treen free zone. get rid of the laws that force contractors to pay living wage. so it took them 13 days before they did that in the case of katrina. in the case of haiti they didn't even wait 24 hours. i don't know whether it is improving or not if that two hours ago they took this down. [laughter] so somebody told them it wasn't to it and they put something more delicate. the investigative reporter's "democracy now!" managed to find a year earlier document in the

google cache. what you find now is things to remember while helping haiti. [laughter] buried under it says long-term reform for the haitian government are badly overdue. but the point is we need to make sure the aid that goes to haiti is number one, grants not loans. this is absolutely crucial. this is a already in heavily indebted country. a disaster that as amy said on the one hand is nature, an earthquake. on the other hand it's the creation, it is worsened by the poverty our governments have been so complicity and deepening. natural disasters are so much worse in countries like haiti because the poverty means people are building very precarious ways so the houses fly down because they are built in places they shouldn't be built. all of this is interconnected

but we have to be absolutely clear that this tragedy bush's part natural, part a natural must under no circumstances be used to number one, further in debt haiti, and number two, to push through unpopular corporatist policies in the interest of the corporation. and this is not a conspiracy theory. they have done it again and again. [applause] so, you know this is when you need to be vigilant and frankly this is why i wrote the book because the point is in the moments of crisis everybody just wants to help. we want is a send money and of course send money but we also need to send these political messages at the same time. do not use aid as a tool to control. >> go further and especially because we also have a c-span audience and thank c-span for covering this. in talking about the thesis of

"the shock indoctrine," especially the disaster capitalism not something most people prima the world by come and que truly shattered a paradigm when you came out of this. >> of the thesis of the book is these policies of the deregulating labor market privatizing basic services like health and education committees or on a popular policies, and during times of a long crisis it is hard for politicians to get the policies through. certainly not all at once and so there is a body of literature particularly among chicago school economists about the interrelationship between what they call crisis and reform and about how economists me to be aware in moments of crisis one is able to use the emergency atmosphere to push through

unpopular reforms that wants and this is what the world bank and international monetary fund has been doing for 30 years. why does the country come to the imf and the first place? they are having an economic crisis and the idea of structural adjustment is based on the premise country comes to the imf on its knees and says we need help and the imf has all the power and they say fine we will give you a loan but in exchange for that you need to privatize the electricity company and telephone company and open up to competition which means foreign multinationals and you need to liberalize your labor market and liberalize your banking sector and all these things. what i write about in the shock doctrine as the crises being exploited to push through these policies are getting bigger. it is it only an economic crisis, it is natural disasters and i write about how a really important precedent for this was also in the hemisphere which is

hurricane mitch that damaged america and tied the aid to countries hit by hurricane mitch, the two demands that this is honduras, guatemala, privatized electricity, privatized water, phones, and introduce controversial land reform policies. nothing to do with responding to the crisis. it's just buy and you have money people need you have power. this is something the u.s. treasury doesn't seem to understand because on the other hand the trillions of dollars to the banks and they didn't think it was a good idea to put conditions on it but they actually could have. [applause] >> as we talk about the bank's, raj, leal pure visas in the value of nothing. >> it is becoming abundantly clear the free markets or

free-market capitalism has led us down. it was shocking to me to see alan greenspan in october, 2008, had met that there was a flaw in the ideology that he thought had been working well for 40 years. >> you can go to "democracy now!" bald cord when we had a raj on the other day, just put speed line or raj and alan greenspan together. >> please don't do that. [laughter] and we play an excerpt of henry waxman questioning alan greenspan as he talks about the flaw in this thinking. >> we are confronted with this and the way the mainstream media dealt with it is alan greenspan got it wrong, the movie at 11. [laughter] and there wasn't a deeper engagement with actually this is one of the songs of the free market policy having to take it

back and now of course the way the chicago school after a period of reflection and panic has responded to say of course we got it wrong because markets were not free enough and that is their official response but just for a moment alan greenspan kind of offer a break and i don't think we are equipped to know how to deal with that. as i say in the book we wake up being told that actually this philosophy of free market ideology has a flaw and it's like in kafta and the metamorphosis where after a night of bad dreams she wakes up to find himself in the body of a cockroach. in that story was simpson to? peterson ponder hauer in the hell did he get in the body of a cockroach or wonder what am i going to wake up tomorrow? what he worries about is his

job. and that is entirely reasonable. the economy is falling apart around us and we are told that the system doesn't work and of course we worry about our jobs but it's also a chance to think about how markets went wrong and what we might replace them with and so in the book i sort of spend some time talking about where the flaw in the free-market fundamentalism come from, i the ideology became triumphant and the second half of the book will get different ways in which we can tell you things without sticking price labels on them. the impulse is we can only tell you things if the market has passed judgment on how much it is worth and describes the dollar value but there are other forms of valuing the do not involve prices. the latest nobel prize in economics was won by eleanor for her work on the comments. i talk in the book about how the

commons becomes a way we can value things together but we have resources and rules for getting the resources but i also talk about hot chili the comments were forged in struggles around have listened and continue to be forged in struggles with capitalism. she didn't with of price for capitalism, she won for describing the process of commons but in the book i talk a lot about some of the other movements around the world and offer a great deal of inspiration in terms of figuring out other ways we might all the things in there by offering a way of getting to the heart that defines the book, the people today know the price of everything and value of nothing and that of course is an oscar wilde quote and people should know he was a socialist. [laughter] it's important to say the board without the vegetables being thrown, socialism, ladies and gentlemen. [applause]

>> the purpose of the book is it's okay to say it. in many ways the alternatives have been suppressed. did you know for example the dalai lama said ali and the marxist monk? it doesn't get reported with his arms around richard gere or richard gere's arms around him. [laughter] this isn't something featured and of course it's important the dalai lama say i'm a marxist monk because he's someone confronted with the awful power of a so-called communist state against the chinese government. and you would expect someone who'd been up against the chinese to be hateful of marxism but actually there's more about social justice and fairness and equality than there is in the riding of milton friedman and you would expect there for -- [applause] -- more input. some of those ideas are in the book and i try to pull them together.

>> talk more about these movements, but start by talking about the value of a hamburger. [laughter] one of the way is to start thinking about how markets this price the way we live is to look at food, and i spend a lot of time thinking about it and a hamburger when it becomes rounded in the stores is what, $4 if you buy it at the local burger joint. but researchers a little while ago did work on how much would cost if you fully incorporated the environmental cost and they looked at if this burger was once grown -- grown on pasture and the pastor once upon a time is to be a rainforest then it's possible to impute a dollar value to the stuff you lose by the deforesting and you would lose by diversity and the car been sequestered in the forest, the oxygen, really the range of

the ecosystem and services and if he were to impute the dollar value to that that value would be $200 that is just -- $200 per hamburger just for the environmental costs but there are other things not included in prices. for example if the hamburger is consumed in the united states, then the chances are that tomatoes in the hamburger are grown in southern florida and many of you may know about the collision of the workers in southern florida to pick tomatoes and conditions of modern-day slavery. i don't use the term whitely. over 1,000 people have been freed under the statutes that constituted abolition in the united states. on thousand people freed from conditions where they are chained in the back of trailers where they are forced to pay for showers, $5 to have a shower and

they are picking pesticide tomatoes all day and some people find it cheaper to wash their hands in bleached and paid the $5 for a shower to read these artemus conditions, and forced the labor is -- the cost of labor rarely features in the price of a hamburger. then of course there's a range of costs that follow after the hamburger, the costs for example that are involved in the way that we eat today. one in five health care dollars in the united states is treated diabetes, $180 billion in year. that is to no small part to the costs associated with the week and again we don't pay that when we pay for all were hamburger's the market's systematically hide the real cost of things and there are movements they are fighting to get the costs and for the collision of the workers capitalism flexible systematically excludes the cost of women's labor.

capitalism takes an ongoing subsidy from reproductive sleeper that usually women perform in terms of raising children, maintaining community. but if you add that up as the u.s. researchers did in 95, you get a very big bill. $17 trillion, half the total world all put is premised on unpaid women's labor. one of the most inspiring movements to me is the present way as the coalition of 150 million farmers, farm workers and peasants around the world and they have a mission of economic justice, leveling the inequalities and power called food sovereignty. if you want to know more about it, wikipedia has a good definition of food sovereignty. but i think everything -- the power of this kind of counter

movement can be found in the slogan. food sovereignty is about an end to all forms of violencewomen. food sovereignty is about the end to all forms of violence against women. that is a radical revision. it starts with the idea of food production about people being able to control the food system but it takes the idea of the inequality from the household to the imf and world trade organization and talks about the violence against, structural violence against women and the violence that prevents women from selling their product in the market, being able to solve their girls to school, being able to actually have a so-called level playing field. and for me this idea of food sovereignty is where there is a great deal of hope and a great deal of promise in terms of training in the markets.

>> what is antoine's blindness? >> so there is a neurological disease that you get when you have a stroke or have a traumatic brain injury. if you have this blindness you are brought blind, that signals don't go to the back of your head but with people with antoine's blindness, you can tell people have an 25-point is because although they are blind they insist they can see. if you have antoine's blight miss you insist you have a vision. and again i use this as a metaphor for talking about how we move in our economy because again, we've been told markets are not working for us, but we make excuses for the markets and we confabulate and that you can diagnose antoine's blindness because when someone suspects someone has antoine's blindness -- you can imagine people with aristides tend to bump into

things. [laughter] they are blind but they will stumble into something and make up a story about why this thing here -- i was just being careless. who moved that their? and these confabulations become a way of diagnosing the disease. actually that is a metaphor for the way we've moved in now or economy. we are making excuses for the failure of market capitalism. we say we should have had more regulation. who allowed bernie madoff to run off with our money? we make these little stories around the edge but we miss the fundamental problem that actually we believe we can see through the markets but we see very little and need to develop other ways of sensing and valuing the this faulty faculty of the market fundamentalism. [applause] just a few of the reasons after we have the discussion you should get a copy of "the value

of nothing." by the way everyone will be signing books afterwards, and we encourage you to ask questions on those index cards i think they were passed out or they will be if he would like to ask a question. very good. and we will come to them soon. but naomi, we were just together at the end of december at this remarkable world gathering in copenhagen for two weeks, what some called the most important diplomatic summits in history over an issue that in this country doesn't get very much attention but in the rest of the world is of grave concern and a central point for organizing. it was hard to go to any event at the -- this global climate change summit without seeing namoi klein on the stage everywhere from the beller

center to the people's summit outside whether she was moderating and even or giving a speech you were really central to this whole event, naomi. talk about the significance of it. >> well, copenhagen i'm really glad i went well. i spoke at the opening about mike climate to guilt, having flown there, and the argument that i made was the fact many of us, a lot of people came around solar powered buses and things like that but certainly those from north america didn't swim. and really have the onus was on noss because of that just to work like crazy to make this summit meaningful, to challenge

the corporate takeover of the environmental movement which was really not just so stark inside the official form, to challenge the false solutions to climate change that are upstaging the real solutions, the only solutions to climate change which really do involve changing some of the things we do. we can't -- we can't just read our way out of this as so many politicians would have us believe so the argument i made that first night was if we really did our work, if we've really made our voice is heard this would be the mother of all the carvin offsets -- carbon all set to read it was an extraordinary two weeks. i have to say i think "democracy now!" did absolutely unbelievable work three [applause] and really, you know, to me it has never been how crucial

"democracy now!" ase during those two weeks. nobody willson the best media certainly not the broadcast media was making the commitment to this issue. and it's funny when you are in one of these gatherings to do this is the only story in the world because it feels like everybody must be talking about it but then you hear from your friends back home actually it is kind of barely making the front page and it's barely making the news and that is what was wonderful about what "democracy now!" did is decided this was the most important story, and we are going to go to copenhagen and bring the whole staff and the whole broadcast and broadcast live from the summit. it would have been nice if some of the major networks did that. they didn't. and so, you know, i all this talk of the most important diplomatic event of the year in the world and history, a lot of that was coming from the human and coming from the politicians

i guess six months ahead when they thought that they were going to get a decent deal. and by the time the summit rolled around everyone was lowering expectations. there will be more summits, don't worry, it's no big deal to the head been sinking one last chance to save the world and todd storrar nicoe tannin rolling stone said he compared the u.s. -- said we need to summon the super hero spirit and it's like the media is hurtling towards earth and by the time copenhagen rolled around he was also lowering -- sorry, chief u.s. negotiator for the obama administration. but what was exciting about copenhagen was the force of the civil society. but also, to me climate change really changed decisively in the

discourse, certainly the discourse, official discourse on climate change from being i don't know, i think people tend to think of environmental issues as a luxury issue and something people who have time on their hands can worry about. what happened in copenhagen is the global south roared and said this is about justice, this is about debt and put this issue of climate debt on the global agenda and the climate for those of you that don't know is the argument, the basic argument that is the facts are not controversial, the facts are these. between 17 and 20% of the world's population living in developed countries, living in countries like the u.s. and canada and australia are responsible for between 75 to

80% of the emissions that created the climate crisis because they were not just greeted this year they were created over a period with 200 years, so 20% brigades 80% of the emissions. according to the leading world bank economist, on this issue the effects of climate change are being felt overwhelmingly in the developing world. what he says is 75% of the effective climate change are being felt in the poor parts of the world so you have a direct inverse relationship between cause and effect to read between who is creating this crisis and raise living the affect. so here in this country we are feeling pretty relaxed about climate change, having lots of debate about whether it is real or not, meanwhile temperatures are rising dramatically in africa. the droughts are already here. we are not talking about a grand

children. we are talking about now. i think bill mckibben said one thing i want of there's a message to to come from copenhagen it's not about your grandkids, it's about now. it is about islands facing extinction within 50 years and about the fact that manila was under water just a couple of months ago in an extraordinary flood that is directly connected to climate change but india was battered this year by these bizarre cyclones going between the drought and flooding, drought and flooding happening around the world so when i say that the south roared in copenhagen, what happened in copenhagen and we've heard this from the g77, the company blog, was the people who created this crisis have to bear the burden of solving the crisis and also pay for what it's going to take to solve this crisis which means adapting to climate change

making countries more resilient to the extreme weather and here if we look at haiti and what's happening even though it is not linked to climate change you can see what that would mean. why is he the and so much trouble right now? a big part is they don't have the first responders, they don't have infrastructure to respond to the crisis so we need to have you help pay for that because that is part of responding to climate change and scores we also need to be helping countries leapfrog over fossil fuels to the green technology, grain sources of energy which have heavy up-front costs and a lot of that is technologies you can't talk about responding to climate change without talking about loosening the intellectual property laws entrenched and organizations like the world trade organization. >> can you explain when you say the countries like ireland's face extinction with rising temperatures, explain why. >> because we are talking about

the low-lying islands because as glaciers melt the waters rise and if they are low-lying islands, it's already happening. they are losing land mass very, very quickly. bangladesh, this is also similar to what's going on in haiti in terms of seeing the connection between bad agricultural processes, that export driven policies and vulnerability to climate change. in the context of pt uzi it with soil erosion and what that means a hurricane hits or earthquake hits and how people's homes are destroyed so much more quickly than they would otherwise be. bangladesh the world bank has been pushing shrimp farming very hard, export driven shrimp farming so they perform unnatural barrier when the storms come. they have been wiped out in huge parts of the country in order for bangladesh to pay the world

bank debt. raj knows more about this and can correct me if i am getting this wrong. so you have these layers of debt building up in the countries where you have the kind of ecological debt from the world bank policies, the bad environmental policies, destroyed the natural barriers, the mangroves and then when the climate change hits and storms start coming fast and furious the natural barrier isn't there some bangladesh starts losing land mass and that is what is happening there. so, the -- was extraordinary about copenhagen is that the developing country blocked the g-7 the seven made this demand repayment of claim that a key demand and there's people here tonight from the bolivian delegation. bolivia was extraordinary in copenhagen. a small country that doesn't usually sort of make news in

these international summits came to copenhagen with a really radical and transformed it set of demands and bolivia has been leading the charge on this idea that climate that can be an alternative to the way we deal with the climate crisis because it isn't just about seeing you are bad, you did bad things, this is the way the western press has been reporting on it. one of the things clear coming from the climate justice in copenhagen was the message that actually you can't put a dollar amount on the loss of land mass in bangladesh on the loss of glaciers and bolivia and the fact that the capitol city of bolivia is quite possibly going to be facing a severe water crisis, shortage of drinking water within the next 30 years or less.

and this is because climate change. it is water comes from the glacier, the glaciers melt and loses its drinking water. how do you put a price on that? you can't and you shouldn't but we can talk about justice, and the climate negotiator for bolivia and the lead up to these negotiations was talking about the marshall plan for planet earth and this is an exciting idea because it isn't just the punitive idea, it is that by acknowledging that we owe these debts and by the way this is not a this are far out idea, this is nothing in the polluter pays idea enshrined in the u.s. law and has been used under mechanism like the super fund that the polluters should pay for the effect of the practices in this case we are the polluter and this doesn't mean the taxpayers have to be the burden.

it can be levied from corporations which it should be levied. it shouldn't be regular people playing the climate that the debt is real. [applause] and with those resources we could be solving the two most pressing crises at once which is massive inequality between north and south and also the climate crisis by putting real resources behind the transformation from fossil fuels to the clean energies and i think it's a really inspiring idea. i don't think it is a punitive idea and that to me it was worth the trip to witness that and to be part of that spectacular moment. that was ignored in the u.s. press. >> the solution in the united states people talk about is carbon trading although that is being debated now. you have this big carvin trading summit taking place these last few days here in new york and

interestingly james hansen, the nassau climatologist, one of the leading climatologists in the world held a news conference. he is very much against climate trading and doesn't see that as an answer. he wrote an op-ed piece in "the new york times" and then paul krugman wrote an op-ed piece basically saying jim, go back to your science, you are a great climatologist but don't know what you're talking about when it comes to carvin trading. that is the answer. raj patel i want to ask about the value of carbon and explain what carbon trading is. >> essentially the idea of the carbon trading is premised on this idea that the -- we are living in a tragedy of the commons. the tragedy of the comments of people don't know was an article written in 1968 by a scientist

named garate which publishes as a thought experiment and the thought experiment is imagine that we are all lit are now a forest and we all enjoy trees and using a tree is so because we are all selfish individuals and no one owns the forest we are going to go in and chop the trees down and take them back and carve them and burn them and do whatever it is we want to do with those and keep going back to the forest but the tragedy is a selfish desire overrun any possibility of us standing in the managing the forest and because no one owns the forest and can tell us to bug off we will continue to use that force and destroyed and the tragedy is with eyes wide open we will destroy the resource on which we depend we will solve the branch of that we are sitting on. that is the tragedy of the commons. and as i talk about in the book that is nothing like the way the comments used to be in fact we

are not just selfish individuals. we are adapted to be much more than that. we are sociable, generous, cooperative, we can be altruistic. but the idea that if you own a something you will take care of it and if it is on known than it is unmanageable is the driving idea behind this idea of carbon trading. when you privatize the right to pollute and give industry the right to pollute in the atmosphere and gently ratchet that down the market resources allocated the capacity to pollute, the atmosphere is priced correctly. it's like the woody allen headline on an act to with nature. he has this idea he cannot be at one with nature. when he says ibm at two with nature, the idea behind the

carbon trading is prospectus in ireland but then go and destroy it and there are sites that parity this like cheat neutral. the website where people are having difficulty maintaining fidelity and their relationships can by offsets for cheating from people who are good at being monotonous. [laughter] but the trouble is in theory it could work. in theory if there were markets, if there were ways of transferring things, if the infrastructure were in place, if we lived in some sort of perfect textbook world perhaps carbon trading could work. in the real world that never can and in fact if you look the examples of the carbon trading that have already been established in europe they've been pretty bad. in the book i draw on the work

of larry lomond, a tremendous climate change activist and managed to quote someone from citigroup, one of the analyst said citigroup who had been analyzing the european scheme and his summary why this looking at the winners and losers from carbon treating the winners were polluting industries particularly coal and nuclear dig out of carbon trading for the emissions permits. the biggest winners of course for banks to the banks that have been making a great deal of money shifting things around like a goldman sachs is very excited about what could be a multi trillion dollar market in the carbon emissions and of course this -- the emissions trading shares the same dna with the derivatives trading that got us in trouble early on a couple of years ago. we shouldn't be suspicious of it

now but empirically again what we've seen is banks making a lot of money, polluters' making money coming emissions are up and it's worse off than in europe. >> people who really don't get carbon trading in a knott shell? >> there are permits to pollute and the government will discard the permit to emit a certain amount of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and if you are in publishing industry will do you're depressed to get as many permits for free but there's a finite number of those permits and so if you are not reducing your carbon emissions below the permitted level you can buy permits from someone actually doing a good job of reducing the amount of carbon they produce. so the permits that float around the market so if you are doing badly you will buy a permit to pollute from somebody doing a good job of not using their allocations. and again, in theory it sounds terrific of course it doesn't

have the net result is encouraging pollution. this isn't a polluter pays principle, it is the polluter earns principle and that is one of the reasons why it has been so deeply flawed in europe. >> and it's easy to cheat. it's ridiculously easy to cheat because how do you establish that you are doing a good job? you proved you are emitting less than before or planning to, so you might close a factory and that factor might become a contract factory and china. this is a big part of the reason europe's emissions have gone down. went to the decimation of the manufacturing sector is the goods are not being produced anywhere, no, they just move the site of production so companies can claim we've cleaned up our act when all that means is they have of shored their manufacturing. or they can say we were planning to expand but we cut back and

it's kind of an honor system. how do we know they were planning that. it's something pretty easy to dr. maximum is a moment to be -- it is fair to be suspicious when we look at who the people would be regulating the thing and the people who would be benefitting. you know, okay said we want to leave it to tim geithner and goldman sachs and i'm sorry if that sounds like guilt by association that if they cannot regulate the financial sector white we think it could regulate something as ephemeral as the carbon sector. [applause] but that is -- the bigger issue is raj's the other point which is we are just wasting time. there is no urgency to the solution, and that is the biggest problem with it. it does not flag of the urgency that the science tells us we should be feeling. that we need to be on a different course by 2012. that's why the meeting should have been so much important than it actually was. any measure that allows us to

continue house if nothing has changed, to continue practice is because we were able to buy a few pollution credits from somebody else, that is wasting valuable, valuable time and i think that is the most important issue we need to focus on. i think certainly the young people in the environmental movement know that and one of the things that was really striking to me in copenhagen was people in their early 20s who work there but off to get obama elected and really believed -- and for them climate is the issue. it's the issue of their generation, the issue of their lives, and they really believe that because obama recognizes that climate change is real unlike bush of course he would act with urgency. ..

be absorbed almost completely into the democratic machine. we saw the kerry campaign peers only democracy now. just a digression that the boston democratic convention. everybody was fawning over kerry. democracy now's lined westar kerry delivers a major pro-address. [laughter]

but it didn't matter. he saw the antiwar movement working their off for kerry even though he was running on a pro-war -- spivak the headline we have for president obama's nobel except in speech. [laughter] >> know, what was that? >> but we changed the name. [applause] >> with both of this again and again that we need to rediscover that spirit, that famous, you know, maybe a comparable quote about fdr, that he would say to a social movement leaders when they would present a good idea to him about reforming legislation, to be better for workers. he would say it's a pretty good idea. now get out there and make me do it. i mean, does the dialect to. he was a very stern dialect that between social movements,

independent trade union and the administration. it was congregational. and you know if there's any hope of not sort of wallowing in cynicism in this political nomad in the one-year anniversary of obama's inauguration, we need to rebuild our independent social movement. [applause] and what i pharmacokinetic and -- i'm a young environmentalist, they know their science inside out, understand carbon trading and why won't work or intimated by this issue.electing obama would do it. we need an independent movement that's going to push them. and we'll need to realize that. so i think that is one message we got from copenhagen it was worth it. i'm not unturned unturned.mack >> it's ironic that we have the president elected on the mandates of change.

administers the election was over we were encouraged to sort of perceived him as the pizza delivery guy a chance couple were refit in front of our televisions and he would ring half fresh steaming change. [laughter] and of course we were encouraged to be pastors. and it was interesting -- spivak inpatient. >> that's a great deal over virtue. >> what was the metaphor in your life >> i mean, the idea -- it's very interesting actually pitch election because i do think the food movement in the united states -- i think the food movement to the united states is one thing particularly underbrush where was possible for politics to make a real transformative change. and in fact, it was interesting in the beginning or the end of

the 1990's people used to sort of mock the united states for its absence of thinking about food and people in europe thought that the food movement to the united states looked a lot like that scene in the triplets of belleville. there's a sort of slightly ponderous americans, eating all the time and a sort of waddling through street. and yet, in europe now people look to the united states for leadership particularly around the food movement. and that i think ruinously exciting and the fire of the politicalization that the food has gone through the united states. in the example of the kind of grassroots democracy are happening. i know that there are members of the brooklyn food collected here tonight. [applause] where are y'all? to getting involved in activism around the reauthorization act. and i think the kinds and there's a petition petition to be signed that will be available somewhere. so please decide not.

but i mean, i think the movement is dead interesting way in which these movements are happening right here in an excited by the ways in which things like food policy council offer ways of becoming democratic. i mean, i figure i soliloquized that a lot of what we are induced to be where democratic is to get involved in elections. but of course we don't live in a democracy. as i say sometimes, we live in a complaint obduracy where we elect our leaders and after two years if they disappoint us we elect more doubletime disappoint us. but what we don't have is genuine democracy. an athenian democracy because i don't want to live in athens for slavery and with this profound ideas. i think athenian democracy had interesting thing about it, which is they have no election.

in athenian democracy at the beginning every year, 6000 people would be picked at random to run the city. [laughter] and then they would run the city for a year in groups of 500 in at the end of the year they would be to stand in another 6000 would be assigned at random. >> it's funny you say that because john and hari who is one of my favorite journalist who works at the independent. he was covering the copenhagen summit at one point he said to me that he really believed that if the country delegations hadn't been select a bike jury duty, just random citizens, they absolutely could have, a really good deal. [laughter] >> know, but that's it. it was interesting to see in copenhagen but it was believed. i was curious about your son for the difference between, you know, those elite contending against one another with seattle because i know you are both protest and had a chance to

see -- to see things really from all angles there. >> it's actually funny. one of my dirty secret is that i was not actually at seattle because my editor wouldn't send me. he didn't think it was going to be important. so -- i was stranded. and i wrote about it but it wasn't there, sadly. you know, i think there -- i think the dynamics are really different. and not with seattle and many of the other sort of make a protest outside the g-8 or the imf world bank, the people in the streets were just flat-out opposed to what these institutions stood for in their goals. whereas, in copenhagen the people in the streets believed in the goals far more than the

people inside. so what was -- it wasn't like seattle in that way. i think what was interesting -- where there was an interesting parallel was in seattle you had it inside outside sort of big sur where they were the people of the street to where shut down the city, but then you also have the developing country governments who were in many ways emboldened by the protest to stand up to the incredible bullying from the u.s. and the european union to say no to a bad deal. so the reason why this seattle world trade organization was not because there is protest, it was because the developing countries broke the deal. refused the deal. and that dynamic was certainly a play. but i think there was much more interplay. i mean, to talk about bolivia again. but not just olivia. i think with some of the developing countries that were

pushing some of -- some of the more progressive policies, it was much more dialogue, much more fluid like for instance as i said at pelicans in our row, one of bolivia's leading negotiators came and speak at klima form and there was quite a lot of that and so did even morale if andy also spoke at klima form. so it was kind of like taking sides i suppose. >> i wanted to ask you, naomi, about your assessment of president obama beyond the issue of climate, but on the issue of war and also health care is a canadian. but first, raj, that introduction of you that she worked with the world trade organization, that you work for the world ankeny protested them on four continents. just give us a little more, fill that out real quick.

>> i mean, i was -- [inaudible] >> we met when you're in london for the first time around. i mean, i was curious about the world trade organization and the world bank. the world trade organization i entered as an intern, just to see what it was like and then i reported that to the people's global action. i was having an anti-bpo campaign there in brazil representing geneva. it was interesting. i worked very hard as an intern i was assigned a project to figure out whether trade increases blue showing. last night and the answer is, yes. [laughter] and this apparently was the wrong answer. for the world trade -- so i wrote this by tim stack report and they cost about and they came up with some actually now discredited economics about how

their something called a curve about how actually as countries get richer, they produce less pollution. that sort of a curve of war pollution and unrest louche in. >> and then they yell at china for breaking it. >> this was a story of the world trade organization. the world bank was actually much more insidious. as a graduate student at cornell one of the professors there was working on the world development report 2000. and i was one of his students. he's like about this project for you. you need to look at the world bank classified documents and you get to see how they treat poverty and you get to write about it critically. unlike all do that. i'm there. and so we got these encoded them other than it turned out that were encouraged to do was not to

write an honest assessment about what the world bank was doing, but to write a puff piece. and it was published under the title, voices of the poor, can anyone hear us? [laughter] just to give you a sense of how awful this document was. the final paragraph -- is a narrative from a consultant classified report. therefore goes like this, and so was the sunset on the african plains, we arrived in the village and the women spontaneously got up and thing as a song and the song was, it here are the world bank, they are here to develop us. we hope they will forget us, and quote. in the final line was, will we? [laughter] so anyway, i resigned. but that was published.

so that's what i learned -- basically what i learned at the world bank is that it's not filled with sort of bloke they'll be in billions, people sitting in swivel chairs cats. it's people who believe they're doing the right thing. who are convinced of the mission. and that's actually what makes it much more insidious, is this is the road being to hell being paved. >> they also believe they're doing god's work. >> if someone would bring forward the index cards, will draw a few of those questions. but naomi, as they do, in the introduction, your 10th anniversary edition of no logo, taking aim at brand bullies which was important in

documenting the grassroots that came together ten years ago. you take on president obama today. and if you could extend it to war, health care, your your assessment. >> the reason why i read about obama and the updated version of the book is that no logo is a book about the resistance to corporate culture, but it is also a book about the rise of branding and how that took over the corporate world and the idea that the central mission of corporations was not to produce products and sell them, but to produce ideas and market them. and it didn't matter who produced their products anymore. they could outsource them. so what are you in the book is that there's a direct relationship between the fact that we are experiencing increasingly voracious aggressive marketing culture and the fact that we are being offered ever more casual jobs.

because of a company decides that it is in the idea business and in the business of creating images and ideas are not producing products, then it will have these effects. they will pour their resources into marketing and design and they will extract resources from manufacturing and try to have a much more casual relationship with their employees. and i believe that obama is a super brand and that the obama phenomenon is primarily a branding phenomenon. and i want to take this outside of the question of whether or not we prefer him to mccain. okay, you know, that debate is over. personally, yes, i prefer him to john mccain. and that said, something really powerful happened during that campaign, where hopes and dreams were project did i do this blank canvas that was obama that we can't just blame on obama. it's about us. and i think in order to

understand it, we do need to understand how we do this with her indian, how did we do this with marketing because i think the obama machine studied no way in which brands like nike and starbucks and apple have managed to become icons for young people, how they absorbed the iconography of transformative movements unlike the civil rights movement. when i saw that video, or will i am a video for obama, i mean, i just laughed. i thought finally a politician and make ads as good as nike. he can as it had a nike it, of that invitation to imagine transcendence and you think, hey he agrees with me but did he really say anything. and so that's why were in this -- that's a good marketing. invokes the emotion that doesn't make a commitment because he don't want to be held to anything. and that's what i think we are

in an awkward situation with obama, where we can't really say all he betrayed us and promised these things. because if you look at what he actually said during the election campaign he didn't promise in her payer care. he didn't promise to end the war in iraq. he promised to downsize and ask them in afghanistan and that's what he's doing. we need to understand that a lot of us were complicit in this exercise of mass projection and rational exuberance. i mean, he is acting like the brand ideas. and it is pretty precarious because branding, the success in the world is one of the things like looking at no logo ten years later and updating it. it was just like wow, no one talks about tommy hilfiger anymore. a lot of these brands that were sort of on top of the world ten years ago, you know, felt pretty quickly. i think of the same way obama is kind of like a market bubble. i mean, he inflated really,

really quickly and he's prone to deflation really quickly as well, for that reason. i don't want to -- as i said earlier, i don't think we should just give in to the cynicism. i said this before and i'll say it again. the thing i don't like about obama is the same thing in like about him. i think he's open to pressure. at the moment he's been pressured by the wrong people. i don't think it's a hopeless case. i think it's a better situation to have an obama in office who is open to pressure than it is to have a bush and cheney, who is the famous cheney moment that summed it up for me when he was asked to thirds of the american public are opposed to the war in iraq on the what's your response? and he said it sold. obama doesn't respond to questions like that with so. if anything used to prone to changing his position because of whatever they're saying on fox news at the moment. but i think that there's a real -- this is a moment when

progressives really, really need to step back. and i don't think we have any reason to believe that he wouldn't respond to pressure. you know, obviously i think one of the things we need to be pressuring for his radical campaign-finance reform. [applause] because i think that is the most pressing issue in this country. it is the most pressing issue in this country. and i think it's so urgent because the alternative is just cynicism. you know, obama won this election when he started talking about the economic crisis in the gap between main street and wall street. he was losing the election. people forget this but when therapy would enter the scene, they pulled ahead in the polls. in those first two scary weeks in september. it looks like we were going to have a mccain said to take it that was going to win and then

lehman collapsed on september 14 and obama started connecting with the voters he hadn't been able to collect twice previously. he said the system was broken and that the system of deregulation giving more and more to the people at the top and waiting for trickle-down wasn't working. of course he didn't promise much. he just said it so we thought will definitely do something about that, right? and here we are a dear and a half into the economic crisis and nothing has been solved. nothing has been solved. the too big to fail banks are even bigger. the banks are still leveraged to the teeth. they are still reaping enormous profits from these high risk that mechanisms and of course in the bailout itself which was delivered without any strings attached. that moment of leverage was lost. so why is that? there's a fundamental feedback mechanism by this broke in and what is breaking it is corporate money because wall street knows

how to hedge its risks. that's one thing they know how to do really, really well. the way they hedge their risks coming up a little risks is to campaign contributions. they make relatively small for them contributions to political parties to ensure against the risk of political change. and it's paying off for them. and that is what we need to unblock if there's going to be real change whether it's health care or frankly foreign policy as well. i think money is driving foreign policy in a major way. >> well, clearly you have inspired both of you, many people to ask questions. and we would be here for a very long time if we went to the mall. but this is going to be rapid fire. we have 15 minutes to go and then you can come up and talk to our guests. you can get books or not but it's a great way to spend more time if you get books you have

more time with the people couldn't they find them. so i'm just going to throw these out and answer them if you can in a mandatory minutes and a half. and we'll see if we can get through a lot of them. i'm going to start with ties to his eight years old. who is making all the pollution? when will he know how much damage has been done? >> very quickly, we are. the way we consume is unsustainable. of course, the cooperation by the ones who are trying to profit from that. but if you add up the way that we've been consuming and the damage that is caused in developing countries over the past 40 years, for example, and you make some very conservative estimate, we go developing countries $5 trillion. now of course the way we do the math is to developing countries owe us. aos the debts of $1.8 trillion. but actually, the richest countries have been consuming

over the past 200 years and unfortunately we need to consume our fair share. we're consuming way more than our fair share. >> our interview involved in organizing students in u.s. colleges campuses to protest against the price of college tuition? [applause] >> i'm not involved in organizing them. >> were you involved when you gave an address at university of california university of california? >> yes, for those of you who don't know, mario savio was one of the leaders of this free speech movement at berkeley in the 60's, an incredible speaker who, when did he die? not too long ago. and they have established this memorial lecture. and it was great timing because they always bring an activist speakers. but i happen to be giving just by my lack this speech at a time

when berkeley was in revolt. and i think raj who lives in berkeley can speak to this market and organizing students but i try to excite them as much as i could. they were already pretty excited. throughout the use of the system they are facing a 32% tuition increase. in their libraries are being closed on weekends. they're just been a successful occupation of one of the libraries on the berkeley campus when i was there because the university had closed the libraries on saturdays. can you imagine telling students they couldn't study on saturdays? said a group of and professors had refused to leave the library on friday night and just stayed there all night. and they won that. that was good. [applause] but yeah, i think is amazing, amazing stuff going on in california and california is the canary in the coal mine for the process which is not over.

the crisis is not being solved. it's been moved. this is a private-sector debt crisis that was moved from wall street to washington. we will take your debts. they're fine, the recession is over for wall street. they're reaping record producers, but who is paying the price? the states are paying the price because their tax bases are collapsing. why? because we build a wall street incident main street. obama promised that it wouldn't be a top-down bailout. that's exactly what it does. the choices need to build wall street instead of workers, instead of bailing out homeowners. so what is adamant? its mid-people are losing their homes and new numbers. and that means they're not paying taxes. so right now, the states across the board, california is facing a $25 billion budget shortfall, but across the board the states are facing an almost $200 billion shortfall. this is when they're getting stimulus money. so with a seamless money runs out there will be even more shortfall. so how are they dealing with it?

are dealing with it by massively increasing tuition, closing women's shelters. that was one of schwarzenegger's good ideas at a time when there's more and more violence against women because there's more and more economic stress. so that to spain for these wall street bonuses. that is the moral depravity of this political money. [applause] >> schwarzenegger in his state of the state address to announce that there would be a constitutional minimum amount to spend on education and a constitutional maximum amount to spend on prisons. and i mean, what is often said that actually was the protest that drove that because again, you know, the protesters were saying that when the state is ready to spend 40 something thousand dollars a year on the housing prisoners but a fraction

of that on students there something wrong with priorities. so protest works. [applause] >> and i should say that women thought back over the women's shelters and also one not. some people fight back, they can win. the issue is that it's easier to fight against schwarzenegger, you know, who is still a book he meant that it is to fight against obama. people don't know how to deal with obama. >> this is a follow-up on the keyword is the angry populist movement. the white supremacy or joining the tea baggers on the right and cooperate. are we ready to follow an uprising from the right? the democracy now should be democracy way back when. [applause] but that issue of organizing and it's taken up from questioner after questioner. and the antidote ideas? how can people organize their following a similar theme?

>> i mean, it's all very well to read books about white important to organize it. but actually the things that are working well, again, i always come back to food, but the fact particular when they're 49 million americans going hungry you know there's a need. when the right is happy to actually. the refrain that obama said that the system is broken and all of a sudden various kinds of racist affairs are stirred up. there's something that the tea baggers have those worth taking seriously. it is not fox news or their oxygen. it is a general anger about their situation now and it's important to see how the writers capitalize on. ..

agree americans. it's not just around food. to see this movement is happening around housing occupations and see them in education. as witnessed by the success what's been going on to some extent in california. i think the answer is there are

loads of examples of successful organizing and its practical success that helps recruit to a more progressive positive than good slogans which we have. >> this brings up your concerns on the number of a food co-op about being a more responsible consumer food supporter, organic and responsible for may and promote farming system ability. apart from cooperatives what practical things can urban dwellers entrenched in corporate industrial retail food system do to help change this unsustainable and destructive food system? [applause] >> where do we start? certainly not being corporate industrial food is a good way. and this is not just about food. we've been hearing a lot about moveyourmoney.info coming at you can move your banks to become money and that is important to

do. [applause] but if all we do is consumed smarter, than we do buy into this american message that we can to get their save the world by shopping. [laughter] we need to recognize we are fighting the industrial food system that need to take political action because otherwise corporations will bend to adapting to new consumer environments. we need to change the actual political environment and that means getting involved in the brooklyn food coalition to getting involved in organizing around the next farm bill for example which is already starting now and if you look like to know more about that, foodfirst.org has some stuff. that is one of the big things coming up this year and again, we don't want to take too much time, collector and learn more from the food coalition.

>> with a high level of apathy the world, the entrenched power of corporations what do we really have to save ourselves? [laughter] >> you know, i think hope is a choice that we make because the alternative is unacceptable. so i don't think we are -- it's not a mathematical equation here and i'm not surprised to your questions like that at the events like this because my bother coming to in the event like this? i think coming to an event like this is an act of hope. you can read both of our books. you don't have to come to a roomful of people to talk. it's because we want to connect with each other. we have to rebuild our social networks and this is the truth that we are living in the wreckage of a failed economic

model that hasn't just taken away jobs and security. it has decimated so many infrastructures that used to bring us together. that's why space is like the society for ethical culture and i've had many wonderful evenings in this space. we don't have a lot of spaces like this that are devoted to public discourse for ethical culture. think about the name. even on university campuses i hear more from students that on their own campuses they are being charged for space for extracurricular activities which is something totally unheard of. so i think it is easy to feel helpless particularly when you are at home watching television but i think things can change very quickly when we changed the power dynamics. they are few and we are many and that is why social movements are such a perennial threat and why this consumer model, whether it

is the consumer model of politics on voting and waiting for shopping your way out of everything they are all attacks on the idea of social organizations whether treating or neighborhood associations. raj and i both looked at models of organizing in the developing world and particular where the liberalism, this economic model which is called the liberalism outside of this country has already done so much damage that the organizing models and response are in many ways more developed, and we made this film and argentina few years ago about occupied factories as a way that that country which had previously been held up as this model of economic development to the rest of latin america. the model student from the monetary fund, the bottom of field out and people responded in a range of inspiring ways

including turning the work places into cooperatives rather than letting them close and letting the factories, the machines be auctioned off, people occupied the factories that the losses might not want them but we think we can run them. we don't need huge profits, we just need jobs and be able to feed our families. so, and the other thing is people learned neighborhood based organizing. there was a slogan in argentina which really stuck with me. it came from the industrial belts in the areas where they're used be a lot of manufacturing and manufacturing closed so they said the new factory is the neighborhood and that's the way they treated the neighborhood, as if they were workplaces and did that kind of door to door organizing that is required and built movements of unemployed people and that's happened around the world and it's happening in this country but on a much smaller scale.

[applause] >> on that note and again going back to the beginning of this evening in fees' dire times as we look what is happening in haiti i think we have to ask ourselves can we really afford not to do anything? if not for yourselves, for people who need your help here and in other places to insure people have the ability to organize on their own and it really does begin right here in this room and other gathering places where we talk, we organize and commit ourselves to making the world a better place, and i can't think of a more wonderful religious experience in these words, the place where people need to seek the highest is holy ground. we have a lot of work to do.

there's a lot of suffering in the world, a lot of suffering even in this room made only to get their if we organize can we ensure that maybe there will be a little less of that suffering and also support dependent media because it is the place where we gather and now lie in the stand why people say i listened to "democracy now!" religiously. the place people seek the highest ground. laughter to do something about haitanapprov your own community and he will be doing something in the eckert to make a difference. [applause] >> amy goodman isakson get producer and host of pacifica radio's "democracy now!." she's also a columnist for truth dig. for more information, visit

truthdig.com. truthdig.com is a fellow at the development food first and has written for the guardian and the "los angeles times." he's currently a visiting scholar at the uc-berkeley center for african studies. for more information, visit rajpatel.org. while researching his book, the prohibition hangover, alcohol in america from demon rum to cabernet, garrett peck began getting temperance tours of historic sites in washington, d.c.. booktv joined mr. peck to learn how the movement led to prohibition in 1920 and why prohibition was repealed in 1933. >> what this provision and how did we get it? >> it will start to worry 16th, 1920, once the 18th amendment was ratified but it was actually part of a century long movement to ban all cahal in the country. the movement was called the temperance movement. the idea behind their initially

temperance meant to moderate ones drinking but by the 18 twenties the movement decided people had to have steam completely from alcohol and this was led by the evangelical protestant churches starting in the 18 teams and they believed alcohol was sinful and wrong and they called it demon rum. the associated what the devil. this last the center long. the idea was to clean up in a sober up american society and eventually end up with a decent middle class white bass protestant american society and ultimately they got their way in a provision which was the constitutional amendment, 18th amendment to ban alcohol in america and that went into effect 1920. prohibition last only less than 14 years because of extreme civil disobedience to fill all of the land and a lot of violence from organized crime

and i think extreme indifference from the american public. they realize what they had gotten into by sending a provision. they thought it was just something useful to have and realized quickly we are in fact the country has always been a drinking nation. a lot of ways the temperance movement was 90 to be the people what obey the law and not drink. >> and what you seem to indicate world war i had something to do with it? >> did. a fascinating part how the 18th amendment got through congress and the league only existed for 40 years, 1893 to 1933. they used the occasion of world war i when the united states occurred war in germany, 1917. largest group in the country at that time were germans and guess who also were the brewers, the germans. so you had a whole ethnic group who was basically pushed aside.

suddenly there was a huge antigerman hysteria and drinking beer which is what most americans drink at the plant certainly didn't go suddenly looked on patriotic said they opposed the 18th amendment and it sailed through congress. this was a wartime measure. people felt we needed this for the war and went to the states without people even thinking about it or not. congress voted on it quickly and went to the states and all of the states but to ratified the 18th amendment. those were rhode island and connecticut, both had heavy catholic populations who therefore realized prohibition was targeted at them because the temperance move would have a strong nativist protestant sentiment behind it. >> the next stop here is this striking brick church, the calvary baptist church. >> it was designed who build a lot of the hubbub pub dee dee public buildings of the start of the period of the civil war in the 1880s. he was a german immigrant known as the bread architect. he was both for the red

polytrauma you see in the church how bright red it is and all of the buildings were that bright red including the eastern was his best known building in d.c.. the other reason he was known as the red architect as he was good friends with karl marx, the guy that with the communist manifesto. he was hired in 1866 to build this church. there was a church built four years before during the civil war and it burned down and the church hired him to build this new church and this was the edge of town of the time and now it is almost right downtown washington, d.c.. this is chinatown. >> we are the calvary baptist church because an important event that happened in the temperance movement and it happened in 1895 and the was the first convention here in this building. it was only formed two years earlier by a congregational minister known as hoard russell out of ohio and he recruited a

college senior named wayne wheeler who became asl general counsel and i like him to be called karl rolvaag tuesday. he invented pressure politics cause of how the asl was going to squeeze these politicians to force them to vote as opposed to voting white. they met in this building in 1895 and they began to craft a national strategy how the asl was quick to turn the country dry. one of the things they decided they were going to do was go after the state's first. and by the states they got the states to allow local option laws and once local option law was in place the asl evangelical protestants could use their political influence and force the counties to go dry. and you see that especially across the deep south to this day and parts of the midwest you see a lot of dry counties and that's because of the strong emphasis, the strong influence i

should say of the southern baptist convention. once enough states had voted to put some kind of dry law in place that would then force the congressman from the state to vote draw even if they were wed in their personal lives the senators and congressmen have to vote try so by 1915 a majority of states had some kind of provision already on the books. right here in washington, d.c. we have a prohibition in 1917. so before we even got in world war i the city was already dry. legally it was dry. so the idea of we change the constitution of buying alcohol that didn't seem so far-fetched. the states were try horse had some kind of dry law in the book and so it seems to be the will of the country that we should try of the country entirely. again the asl used the occasion of the world war one once the germans had the biggest ethnic minority in the country and also

the brewers were pushed aside that lighted the asl to oppose the 18th amendment. some of the interesting things about the temperance movement itself, it was an evangelical white protestant movement. this was a faith based initiative to get the country to try and this is a time of american history especially the 1890's to about 1920 known as the progressive era, this idea society can be reformed. and a lot of good stuff can out of this. we men got to vote. we got our food laws and income tax. whether that is a good thing or not we have to decide on our own but we also got a provision in the that actually backfired horrendously against the temperance movement itself but this was a three decade long period where we found we could have a socially pure society and this is for the benefit of all americans to clean things up. at the same time of course because it was so protestant i,

it violated a lot of the rights of ethnic minorities. and remember starting with the irish in the 1840's there was a great wave of catholics that came into the country and german-speaking to the country were catholic and then the italians coming in a wave of jews from eastern europe and these people acted differently. they brought their drinking habits with them and a lot of cases that violated with the temperance movement fought what it meant to be a good american. in this country here we don't drink. we are a middle class property said people and catholics need to be a so a lot of cases here intemperance the movement was targeted at the catholics to reform their ways. prohibition went into effect a year after the amendment was passed so it went into effect january 16th, 1920. so 19 years ago. on the eve of the prohibition all of the drives of the country, you had one last chance to buy alcohol unless you lived in a dry state and the majority

of state for try at that point. in norfolk virginia there was a mock funeral led by a man named billy sunday, an evangelist and former baseball star and at the mock funeral he preached the eulogy. and in this eulogy he said goodbye, john, your god's worst enemy and devils' best friend. farewell. i hate you with a perfect feed and by the grace of god i love to hate you. >> [inaudible] and of course provision went into effect the next morning and things turn out different than the temperance movement expected. >> john barleycorn. smick that was an old nickname for alcohol, also known as demon

rum. >> when you're doing your tour, when you are done with the calvary baptist church what is next? >> we jump on the subway and go to see the woodrow wilson house and he was the president when provision went into effect in 1920. >> this was a portion of the book tv program. you can view the entire program and many other booktv programs online. go to booktv.org, type the name of the author or the book in the upper left-hand corner of the page. select the watch link. now you can view the entire program. you might also explore the recently on book tv box were the featured video box to find recent and featured programs.

we are at west virginia university in morgantown west virginia with john temple, author of "the last full year the fight to save death row inmates be quote mr. temple by don't you start by telling about the main characters, ken rowes and boe jones? >> they are to and about the same age, they live in north

carolina boe jones was from the plan county north carolina convicted of murder in 1993 for a murder that occurred in 1987 and he was sentenced to death and spent i believe 13 years on death row. ken rowes is the lawyer who in 1997 took on his case shortly before boe was scheduled to be executed, and he has represented boe ever since. and i spent four and half years following that case. >> what got you interested in this particular case? have you always been interested in the law? >> my wife is a lawyer but it is not a field i have studied. i was drawn to the idea of writing about lawyers who explosively represent death row inmates because i felt i just wanted to know why someone would

do that. it's not a field that has a lot of rewards financially or in the community really were in the legal profession. so i wanted to know -- it's really hard work. your clients are often they died when you do it a long period of time so it can be really, really difficult work to do. so that is the story that i was drawn to that i felt like no one had written about. there's been a lot written about the death penalty over the years and some cases we followed in the books but no one to my knowledge has written about the lawyers from a sort of a journalistic point of view. >> how closely were you able to work with these characters to get the story? >> very closely with tennis. with boe it's a little harder. he's a stubborn character and he

didn't want to speak to me for a long time. in fact he wouldn't work with his own lawyers for a long time. he had problems with the way they were handling this case and he said he can be a difficult person and that was something that was really interesting to me. to see the lawyers working on behalf of someone who wasn't even cooperating with them on top of everything else that is difficult about the field, even their own client wasn't working very well with them. >> uzi it took a few years to put together the book. how much time was research versus writing? to do have to travel lot? >> i did travel a lot. i considered a work of journalism which is difficult to pull off when he lived in west virginia and the case you are writing about is north carolina so i had to go down there a lot. i think i took something like 17

trips down there over that for and have your period including the one i just moved my whole family down and lived there for a month. >> who do you want to read this book and what you want them to take from it? >> i think it is a book that could appeal to a variety of people because it's written in accessible style. it's not written primarily for lawyers. it's not really a book about death penalty -- isn't a book that is aimed toward an audience that already knows a lot about the death penalty. it is a book that is a courtroom drama is the way i think about it and try to go about it. so, i think a wide variety but i think certainly anyone who's interested in the law as well or particularly in civil rights and the death penalty would be interested. >> what are ken rowes and boe jones doing today? do they still have a

relationship? >> a2. it's not particularly close. can kenneth continues to work for other inmates on death row and he is a very important figure in that arena. he's probably one of the most -- is hard to gauge exactly but he is doing death row work since 1981 since he got a lot of college pretty much or law school. so that makes him by default one of the most experienced people in that field if not a huge field. so, since he's been very important and well respected in that area and he's argued a lot of very important cases. >> where do you stand on the death penalty and did your views changed at all after doing the research and writing of this book?

>> well, i didn't go into it for ideological reasons. i didn't go into it to write a book about why we shouldn't have the death penalty, however, it's certainly a book that concentrates more on one side of the argument than the other. i chose to concentrate on the death penalty lawyers -- i mean the lawyers who represent the death row inmates. i don't know that my views changed a whole lot. i felt like going in that from the research i had done and from what i have read and people i talked to that there was a system that doesn't work particularly well and i think that that view has only been reinforced by what i have seen. >> would you teach it the university? >> journalism school and the associate dean as well. >> great. we've been speaking with john

temple, author of the last lawyer the fight to save death row inmates at west virginia university. thank you. >> thank you. >> in the book shaping foreign policy in times of crisis, professors michael sharf and paul williams talk of the impact of the law on the decision making process of the state department. joseph beth booksellers in lyndhurst ohio posts this hourlong discussion. >> good evening ladies and gentlemen. welcome to joseph beth booksellers, a bookstore and beach would ohio, legacy village for those of you in the television audience joining tonight. it is wonderful to see so many people who have come out on a cold cleveland winter night to hear about paul williams and my new book shaping foreign policy in times of conflict. this book is literally so hot off the press it is still warm.

they were delivered to the bookstore yesterday and we are excited to launch a national book tour with the event this evening. i will start by introducing myself, paul, a co-author, will introduce him. we will tell a little bit about the book, why we wrote this, how we put it together, what the uniques findings were and then we will spend most of the hour answering your questions because we think that is going to be the most exciting and interesting exchange we can possibly have. to begin with, i am michael scharf professor of international law and director of the international center at case western reserve university school of law and i am glad to see that several of my students have come this evening along with so many friends and people better interested in the subject i formerly worked at the u.s. department of state to win the first bush administration and clinton administration along with paul williams