why? because their defense has been a especially well because it lot better. ensures retention in treatment everyone's gotten involved. programs. when teams are balanced and we know that's the best predictor of outcome. offensively and cal is that, you well, that said, dc had a drug have multiple guys that can make threes, guys that can score court. inside with boykin. and -- but the clinic which i you have gutierrez who is that went to work in in '95 was glue guy. he can make a shot for you. it makes you awfully difficult inhabited by counselors who did to guard. endorse this multicultural as good as washington state played in the first half, this approach, and that's how i first is when cal's at their best. became aware of it. we know they're stilled and can and so we had our patients, score but when they're guarding almost exclusively black men in people, they're awfully their 20s and 30s. the majority of them were functionally illiterate. difficult. few of them had high school >> barry: the bears show full diplomas, let alone geds. court pressure as well. they drop out of it almost they didn't have much experience immediately. time is of the essence for the in the legitimate work force. cougars. moore leads it for koprivica. and we could have done so much for them. as i said, we -- they were our now back to moore. captives. we have them five hours a day for a minimum of nine months. moore, 2 of 3. we could have set them up with wouldn't go. didn't have a very good look. apprenticeships and -- and ged casto tries to save and can't. courses. it will be california ball. but instead, they spent hours in groups being -- counselor-led >> don: washington state going to get up and try and create groups in which they were turnovers. ten-point game, 1:23. inculcated in their victimhood.

they -- they were -- we -- they cal has to be strong with it. were talking about racism and >> barry: they foul boykin, almost immediately. for the bears, coming up, they how you're oppressed black men. one day, i -- i came in and they were doing art therapy, coloring in stencils of the african will go up and play the oregon continent in the spirit of schools next thursday and saturday at oregon state on ethnic self-pride. thursday, oregon on saturday. then they have the arizona and the patients themselves -- if this isn't the tragedy -- the schools here. patients themselves thought this was a terrible waste of and right now, they're in a their time. battle with those two. >> don: with this win, i think c-span: who's teaching them cal has put themselves in the best position out of anybody to that, white or blacks? >> guest: both. win the conference. c-span: and the psychiatrists doesn't mean they're going to there are -- are... but they're in the best >> guest: no psychiatrists. c-span: no psychiatrists. >> guest: my goodness, this position. oregon and oregon state at the hasn't seeped too far into bottom of the conference. psychiatry. they have them on the road. psychiatrists and psychologists are still among the most and the remaining schedule for sophisticated mental health the other team, they still have professionals. you know, if you imagine sort of to go to more difficult places. a pyramid like this in terms of i think right now as it sits, number and -- and training, california in the best position psychiatrists at the very top. on paper of any team in the conference. psychologists close up there. >> barry: they control their own then the socialworkers, another destiny. band, and then at the bottom, boykin makes them both. cal 11 for its last 12 free counselors who -- some of them are excellent. throws, on an 11-0 run to take a i w -- i've worked with some of the most wonderful counselors. a lot of them have had the

12-point lead. advantage, of course, of being casto comes underneath. addicts themselves. thames comes up short. so they have enormous experience it's picked clean by randle. in having had -- had that -- you know, lived through it and randle going to take it all the recovered, and they've way. also got some -- some technical training. i think he got away with a and they -- some of them have been the most wonderful, but others -- and those were the ones i worked with in '95 -- i pushoff, too. >> don: kind of how the second half went, stop, missed shot for -- i can't say that -- that they were the most wonderful. washington start. cal the other way. and you learn this in schools of counseling. moore with the standing three. if you look on the... c-span: where? it won't go. give us an example where you gutierrez with the rebound. would learn this. it's knocked down. >> guest: oh, you can learn it at the university of connecticut at bridgeport. you can learn it at the it's getting awful physical down university of oregon. there. >> don: i don't think down 14 there's any reason for washington state to continue fouling. >> barry: they have not scored any s -- any school that has a for the last 3:30. it must have been a tough, tough -- a department in counseling, road trip. that gives graduate degrees in had a lead in this counseling, has either a -- game. 18-point lead at stanford. offers either courses or a concentration in multicultural they have ucla and usc at home. therapy. and then they finish at the c-span: well, how did you come about -- i mean, seeing all this oregons. up close. they also have to play i mean, you're -- were you the washington but they do get them only psychiatrist at the superior court? >> guest: i was. i was.

in pullman. c-span: how many people were >> don: what do you do if you're there, total? >> guest: patients? a coach when your team plays two exceptional first halves but c-span: i mean, on -- on a given day, how big a facility was this? >> guest: i want to say about comes away empty? 150. i'm sure he addressed it about c-span: where was it located? >> guest: it was located on f the other night's game where street up there near the they played so well and then lost the game. judiciary square metro station. this time, they get flipped c-span: and you had come to work around and blown out. every day to do what? gutierrez, we talked about him affecting the game. what was your job? 14, 6 assists and 4 steals. >> guest: my job was to do intakes on people. basically, it's the -- the equivalent of a physical, an if you can capture the first admission physical. half for washington state and try and talk about, you ow, this would be sort of an admission mental status exam doing the same in the second and, typically, they were half, you're going to be all negative. right. in other words, we didn't have patients, by and large, who were >> barry: gutierrez actively hallucinating or incidentally, 14 points, 6 assists. suicidal. i mean, most of them were drug -- you know, drug abusers and randle will leave to a with... c-span: and -- and go back to standing "o" from the crowd here the -- what were the -- the at haas pavilion. business about filling in africa >> don: incredible career for or coloring in africa? jerome randle. what -- what -- how did that come about? and why would they do that? >> guest: that's just one of the exercises that the... if they can hang on and win this

c-span: to teach them what? conference, it will be the first >> guest: ethnic self-pride. time in 50 years. he'll be a big reason why. i mean, i -- i am as skeptical as you are, and -- and then... he'll climb up the leaders charts. he's already the career three-point leader. c-span: did it work? what a career for jerome randle. i mean, was there any... >> guest: i don't think so. no, there wasn't any -- there was -- was there any follow-up? >> don: gutierrez also leads. no, but the patients themselves were -- were really quite distraught over this. they felt that it was a complete >> barry: that puts moore at the free-throw line. waste of their time. you could almost argue it's not so much what they were doing, it's what they were not doing. doing the kinds of things that would help these people be can't get it. he'll get the rebound. employable and moderately and they will reach in and foul. educated, the -- the two -- really, the two advances that these folks could make that would inoculate them, at least somewhat, against relapse to drugs and crime. c-span: does this book come out of that experience? th -- is that the first reason you thought about writing a book like this? >> guest: that was the first reason. c-span: and when did you think >> don: incidentally, gutierrez, -- i mean, how long has this book been in the -- in the making? 15 points, a career high and his >> guest: well, probably since then. 6 assists, a career high. i started writing about this

so quite a game. multicultural therapy, then i -- for her say gutierrez. then about a year later, i became interested in a report we looked like geniuses highlighting him in the open. >> barry: didn't we? >> don: we set him up for a great game. >> barry: takes the spotlight. that got a lot of media coverage >> don: we like those guys that of the notion that bring it every practice, every game. african-americans were more >> barry: absolutely. >> don: raises the level, no likely to suffer from high blood doubt. >> barry: he lost the handle. pressure, which is true. the bears will not have to shoot they are, about twice as likely, but that the reason for this is again. -- as "discovered" by a professor at harvard you know, this is going to go down as a 16-point california school of public health and published in the american journal of public health -- was winp this they end the game on a because they suffered the stress of being discriminated against. 15-0 run. the game nowhere near what it will appear to be. >> don: you chalk that up to the c-span: is this alfred senior leadership. poussaint? i would have love to have been >> guest: no, but he is there. he's a psychiatrist... c-span: 'cause he's in the book in cal's locker room at and... >> guest: ... there. he is. c-span: yeah. halftime. i'm sure it was mike montgomery and he -- he -- does he have the and his staff, the seniors, same theory that racism causes hypertension? christopher, randle, robertson, boykin all saying, hey, guys >> guest: he might have that theory. we're not going down like this. i know that he is in favor of considering racism a mental they rose up, came back with the illness. he -- you'd -- he'd written a

intensity in the second half and got a big win to keep them in book about that recently and he first place in the pac-10 had an op-ed, i remember, in the new york times right after conference. >> barry: that's a gutsy win for buford furrow, that white -- i believe he might have had white the bears. supremacist ties, in la a few they were down as much as 14, summers ago, shot some -- in a outplayed in the first half. s -- in synagogue and then killed an -- an asian man, i believe. the cougars played that well. they didn't play that badly. and that prompted him to write the op-ed in the times that -- california, they can be the that racism should be considered masters of their own fate, nine a mental illness. and in fact, that was brought up and four down. before the american psychiatric 17-8 overall. association once, i believe, in the two arizona schools playing the '70s, and -- and he -- i believe he was part of a -- the effort to later on tonight. join us tomorrow, pac-10's women's hoops at 5:00 eastern, cal will meet washington, then have the apa designated as such at 10:00 eastern, pac-10 men's and put it in the dsm -- at that time maybe dsm-i, the diagnostic and statistical manual, you action. ucla will battle usc. know, the handbook of diagnoses. they rejected that. that's tomorrow on most of these c-span: i -- is there any proof that you know of that -- that -- stations. big day for klay thompson but it on this question about racism that causes physical reaction on was not going to be enough on this gay. the part of anybody that's not that's a wrap for us. of the white race? >> guest: sure. well, i have -- there's no question in my mind that any -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com kind of stressful situation can cause a physiological response. i mean, we've known that for -- for ages.

i mean, stress causes changes in the immune s -- can cause actually changes in the immune system, usually prolonged stress. but certainly can lead to blood pressure elevation, hormonal changes. that -- that's -- that's -- there's nothing new about that. but when one looked at her data... c-span: whose? >> guest: ... which -- the data of the professor at harvard who was -- concluded that the d -- the dis ur life. -- the stress of discrimination was responsible for this then one night, hit by a car at an accident scene, disparity and high blood it was his turn to ride in the ambulance. pressure. when you look at the data, they after years of rehab, chris has learned to take care of himself. didn't hold up ver -- in a -- in a nutshell, she sought to but money is so tight, he has trouble staying warm. he just can't afford heating oil. measure discrimination, which is nice to meet you, chris. hard to do admittedly. i mean,that's a very hard thing nice to meet you, and thanks for the oil. to do. you look like you're a fighter, chris. her scale was zero. well, i guess i have to be. in other words,they asked about chris is among the millions of americans four th -- they had a good sample size, about 4,000 patients and asked them -- and who risk their lives each and every day these were patients -- fairly to keep us safe -- our firefighters, young patients who were going to ouce os,r em a kaiser clinic, i think, in

california somewhere -- asked and first responders -- men and women them 'have you ever been who sacrifice for others discriminated against in and sometimes need our help. your life?' chris: thanks, joe, and thanks so zero was one designation; one cit an or two times and three or more. , i'kenn itizergy those were the three categories. let's just stipulate that the responses were meaningful. but what she -- what they found, she and her colleague, were that you didn't see it -- the kind of direct relationship, the kind of positive relationship you would expect, which is to say that the -- the level of -- of blood pressure would -- would track with the report of -- reports of discrimination so that those who said they were not discriminated against would have the least blood pressure, the lower blood pressure readings and so on. you didn't find that at all. i think in black men you found a negative correlation. in other words, those reporting no discrimination had the highest readings. am -- among women, i -- there was some -- something called a u-shaped curve where those who

said they had no discrimination had the highest blood pressure. those who said they had three or more had the highest, but those with two -- one or two had an intermediate. anyway, it was all over the map. and what most researchers would conclude from that kind of distribution of data was ha -- in fact, there is no correlation. but instead, what these researchers invoked was something called internalized oppression, the idea being that -- that the folks who claimed to have no experiences of discrimination really did, but that either they didn't register it consciously as discrimination because they had so -- they had such a low self-regard that -- that i'm so far different from a they felt this was just guy did why? >> because i'm 33. acceptable behavior. >> you look at allen, you say, this is the way we should be hey, there's a free spirit guy. treated in society, hence internalized oppression. >> iverson. you know, w -- it didn't even >> iverson. register a -- as an aberrant >> iverson. event. >> allen's life is a dream come true. >> where i go, you know, i hear or perhaps, they found it too painful to report. about it the next day like the -- these were the explanations. but that's not a falsifiable explanation.

anywhere. >> i think a big part of in other words, it could be -- it could be invoked to explain allen's appeal is he doesn't anything. try to be appealing to anybody. so it's not really scientifically rigorous. he's going through his life doing what he does. c-span: define some of the terms >> i've heard about the will he you write about. jenld jend. what's an indoctrinologist? >> one of the best that plays >> guest: well, that is a term the game of basketball. that -- that i made up. actually, a patient of mine made >> what's up? i'm allen iversonment we're in it up. here talking about practice. he said he was going to the endocrinologist, but he garbled it in such a way it was a great this is "my life 365". neologism and i thought, 'this when you talk about allen really fits these folks,' so -- iverson, it's better to talk so it's a word that i coined to about something negative. -- to describe public health professors and other health it sells more. professionals who feel that our >> giving it back to the fans. health is so completely at the mercy of social forces that >> i'll throw it back in so i there really il -- there really is little people can do to can catch him again. safeguard their health and -- >> "my life 365" is presented and accordingly, that the effort of -- of -- of health by mcdonald's, i'm loving it. people don't understand professionals really should be that i guess they probably to encompass social justice and understand it, but they try not it -- in fact, the former dean of the harvard school of public to understand it because, you health -- and schools of public know, when you talk about allen health in general really are iverson, it's better to talk ground zero of this movement -- about something negative.

it sells more. is quoted as saying, "a school of public health is like a big headlines in bold print, school of -- of justice. the american public health oifers oifers -- allen iverson association is quite politicized. is having a dispute with a they have lots of policy coach. statements, some of them make that's the line perfect sense. they talk about lead exposure unde and good policies for -- for i i preventing that. if a hascept but they also have policy at'sat ying t be holng isot statements on campaign finance ng tconso reform and on the war in nicaragua and earned income tax 'm on, that i credits. care and i care about if people and this certainly is moving think i'm a good guy. i'd belying if i said i want away from the fundamental everybody to think i'm the mission of public health which devil. is developing the scientific and i don't want -- i don't go out of my way to prove that i am a practical basis of disease and injury prevention. c-span: what's a consumer survivor? good person. >> being a role model is not >> guest: consumer is the politically correct word for something that you can choose. psychiatric patient. c-span: consumer? >> guest: yes. in fact, you'll... you're chosen to be that. c-span: well, who -- politically what i hear you saying is that correct among what group? >> guest: among my -- some of my colleagues, certainly among the as you've grown, you've kind of realize that had a little bit. folks who run the center for >> i'm 33. i've been doing the same things i did when i was 23. mental health services, which is a part of hhs that gives out the >> right. you'd be a fool if you did.

>> stone cold fool. block grant for ment -- state i don't do those things no mental health funding, certainly more. i still make mistakes. among advocates for the mentally ill. i'm still human. i still look back on things the word consumer is basically that i wish i didn't do it that an effort to negate the way. i wish i would have done it another way. >> as it stands, allen iverson hierarchy, really, between the is a convicted man required by doctor and the patient that, law to be in jail. unfortunately, this is -- has >> that time was very come to be seen as -- by some of them a kind of malignant interesting. i mean, you're talking about a relationship with the -- the time where it was a situation powerful clinician who is somehow oppressing the helpless happen in a bowling alley. patient. you nolan with his friends and it's a -- it's a very distressing world view. all that. that's what i know that. that's consumer. that bowling alley situation, but consumer survivor is a special species of consumer. he had one of probably one and the survivor is not one who biggest problems you could have. he had a problem where a situation was it was a fight. has survived schizophrenia as in not only was it a fight. a breast cancer survivor, but it was a racial fight. >> i've seen young people here one who has survived mental health services. icted for crimes that c-span: who -- how many of them... >> guest: how many of them are they've not committed over and there? c-span: how m -- yeah. over again. >> guest: yeah, that's a very good question. >> people don't understand, i've tried very hard to get a count.

allen, they charged allen with i'm going to say a few hundred -- that was a count that and you might think,'so why are they important if there are just a few hundred of them?' happened 60 years ago. but they're fairly >> maiming by mob. well-organized. >> what it used to be back in these are former mental the day they had lynchings so patients,actually, and you have to wonder how sick they really prosecutors went back and they are if they could organize so well. looked at this maiming by mob. >> what was the climate like in they frequently work with the hampton from when allen gets sentenced to when now he has to do jailtime? what was the climate like in hampton at that time period? civil liberties lawyers and they are -- the most radical of them >> tense. are virulently anti-psychiatry. i don't know who else to say tense. they feel that the -- the system you take this young, black male with a future and a system and has actually made them sick, they incarcerate this young, that it's been wholly irrespons black male. >> what was it like for you -- irresponsive to them and their goal, in fact -- there are that day when you saw him after two -- two goals that they share. the sentencing walki one is to either obliterate the system all together, depending on who you talk to, but the other is to infiltrate the system and essentially have the consumer survivors be treating their fellow consumer survivors. now where they are palpably destructive is that they lobby

in a fairly effective way against involuntary commitment four laws for the most severely mentally ill. and certainly, as a psychiatrist we're not -- i mean, noone wants to lock up a patient against his or her will. but there are some individuals who are just so dangerous to themselves or others this has to be done. and in particular, we'd like to be able to require that some patients take their medication. it's well-known that t say o w nooulde ack to this schizophrenic patients who are -- from this. >> what was going on in your not medicated are more dangerous mind when you were in there? and are more prone to commit violent crime. >> scary. that's what comes to my mind this is a not -- not a off top when i think of that politically correct thing to acknowledge, but there is ample data to support that, that unmedicated they are more dangerous than the average population. situation. scary. not dead of another in-- scared however, we're not saying of another inmate. certainly that bring back the -- not scared of another man. the asylums at the same scale scared of not having another they were in the '50s, you know, certainly not. we'd like a lot of these folks to be living independently and many of them can if they take

their medication. opportunity to accomplish my goal being a professional the problem is that maybe half -- up to half of all people with athlete. i thought that it was taken all schizophrenia don't even know away from me and it was -- it that they're sick so they don't even know they have to take it. and this would be a legal mechanism for enforcing them was tough. just hoping for opportunity. taking this medication so they i was in there for almost four can live independently and safely. c-span: wh -- what's the politics of publishing this months. for the first month, mawye book? it's put out by perseus group, had thii wasgt the -- basic books. me hery le ay for a moke tw. are they known to publish a certain kind of book? ink ll by yo did you have any trouble getting coome. it out, imean... en, ay b >> guest: no. then c-span: ...' cause it's coming from the point of view it is? >> guest: no, in fact, the editor i had, j -- joanne miller had been after me since, gee, '93 to write a book. >> got me. i used to have a column in a [ laughter ] monthly newspaper for >> he got me out of jail. psychiatrists called the psychiatric times and i would always write about these stated clemency to me. sorts of phenomena. without that he would still so she knew where i was -- my have that on his record. >> i think he looked at the orientation. c-span: what are your -- what -- case, saw all the what number of things are you

involved in that we haven't talked about? inconsistenties, the unfair for instance, you're -- how much of your time is spent with the methadone clinic now? treatment and he made a >> guest: ver -- it's very part time. i'm there about three half days decision based on what he thought was right. a week. >> did he make you promise him anything when you got out? c-span: what else are you doing? >> guest: oh, i'm also a resident -- i'm a fellow, excuse >> no. me, at the american enterprise you know what? id letmeo institute. c-span: and what do they want yonow, i hat fel you to do? what's that job like? >> guest: well, that's th -- probably the greatest job you could have. at leme ld i'm on a two-year fellowship. it's not over yet. e estmy and basically, th -- th -- the charge has been to pursue whatever seems interesting to me. i mean, i'm cer -- i'm -- i'm in that i had a chance to do their category of social welfare. something positive with my god i mean, they do divide up, given ability. obviously, the scholars into -- to areas, so i'm in social >> coming up on "my life 365". welfare. and i believe within that there >> this is an educational is individual and social responsibility. institution. so i'm in that. it's a religious institution so it's... c-span: how do you get that? how did you get that position? freligion and education can't >> guest: well, actually, the give somebody another life, president of aei, chris demuth, what can? i'd -- i'd known him for a few

years, just through mutual friends and the -- just a lot of friends that i had happened to be scholars there so i got to meet him and i'd written a monograph for him in '97 on drug treatment. so he got to know my work and then he gave me a small grant to help support this and so just through years of knowing him and him getting to know my work. c-span: now when you walk in a meeting -- these meetings of all these groups that you talk about in here, what are their reaction to you when they see you? i mean, do you -- are -- are you among friends or do people say, 'uh-oh, here she comes. she's out to get us'? >> guest: actually, the reaction has been among a lot of my colleagues, very positive. as you can imagine, most people are people of common sense and -- but a lot of folks feel inhibited about expressing my reservations, as i do in one of my chapters, for example, about

affirmative action in medical school, although a lot of people are very concerned about it. and they -- they -- their reaction is thank goodness somebody said this. and in fact, that was really one of my major goals in writing, in addition to -- to s -- describing these trends, i really wanted to embolden my colleagues and it turns out that -- i hadn't realized this ahead of time -- but, probably the -- the single constituency, natural constituency of this book is public health professionals and -- so i've spoken to a number of deans at schools of public health and others who are extremely iverson just makes a steal there. >> iverson, reverse lay-up. supportive and rather relieved it's good. >> iverson with the step on the that this is now being talked baseline. >> iverson the steal. about. i've, of course, gotten the requisite, you know, hate mail >> whoa! as well and been called >> describe your college coach by -- i think i was called the most dangerous psychiatrist in america, john thompson. although i think hannibal lecter >> someone that actually saved is more. c-span: you do get -- you do get my life. we wouldn't be in here doing in a lot of discussion about affirmative action in -- in thint view t weren'-- colleges today. what's the law?

>> guest: you mean medical tervif it ren'fo tho schools? c-span: i mean medical schools, yeah. >> guest: yeah. 't bll-smes. well, the law -- the -- the bakke case, i believe that was uldnno ms of 1978, just ruled that race could llar woule nonals. rst all nba scoring not be a sole criteria for admission. titles. first pick. wouldn't have been none of it's certainly part of the -- the criteria used. that. you know -- >> explain how he saved your you would have -- have thought life. >> because he gave me an that when prop. 209 passed in opportunity when everybody turned their back on me. >> how did allen get to california, it would have had a -- a big effect on racial georgetown? was it a recruiting process? >> what happened is that a preferences. committee of people from tidewater area contacted me through boe williams and -- it had an effect on the a -- on the number of applicants -- boowilliams and said they minority applicants that applied wanted to talk to me about to medical schools. it did have that effect. allen iverson. but it didn't have much of an >> i talked personally with effect at all. some colleges at that time and in fact, i think it's fair to say it had no effect on the big-name coaches said i cannot double standard that was used in -- in admissions. and that double standard has take him because my president been going on ever since bakke would not let him in. and is going strong today and is >> i was recruited by -- is endorsed, i -- i think, very forthrightly by many of the organizations within medicine, everybodyin the country in both sports, every single schools in especially the association

of american medical colleges. the country, football and basketball. c-span: but if -- if you're iatio white, black, asian, whatever your -- your background is and hiool,it as o you want to go to med school, do noels they -- do they differentiate be eversi -- i mean, if you're a minority, do you come in at a lower grade now? >> guest: yeah. c-span: can you? is that legal? >> guest: you know, i would th -- i'm involved actually in a reverse discrimination case right now as an expert witness. a student at the -- who's ht the media challenging the university of because first person that will maryland for exactly those come after you was the media. practices. >> they were worried about his i -- i don't see how it can be well being and they were legal, but it's -- it's -- it's ongoing and there's ample data, worried about really his safety because when they came up to much of it from the aamc... c-span: what's that mean, aamc? visit me there was an interesting thing that >> guest: oh, association of happened. i was not showing as much american medical colleges -- who interest obviously as she would supp -- which support racial have liked me, mrs. iverson preferences, but ample data from would have liked me to have them. shown. she asked the other people to get out of the room. they've been collecting it -- meticulous data sets for years she asked them would they leave. showing, in fact, that there is she said i'd like to talk with

woven. when -- talk with coach. a -- quite a discrepancy between when they left, she said that they're going to hurt my kid. the scores -- the mcat scores, medical college admission test i don't think she meant in the literal sense that somebody was scores, and grade point going to shoot him or attack him in that manner, but i think averages of minorities who apply she meant it was her -- a life vs. white and asian students who apply. saving thing she was trying to c-span: what happens when, you pursue for her son. know, someone gets into medical she was really in tears. >> my mom came up here to dc, school and they have a less -- a lesser score? now what happens to their -- do met with him and -- you know, they get out of medical school on the same percentage that the others do? >> guest: yeah. that's a good -- well, good question, of course. they probably don't. there's a fair amount of data after that i had another opportunity in life. showing that the failure rates on the boards -- one takes two i think god put him into my -- you take two series of boards. life. medical school is four years >> people deserve chance as long as they take advantage of long. it. there's a board after the first that's one of the things i said two years and then after the second two years. the failure rates are multiple to allen. i'm willing to go along with this, but you've got to times higher for the minority respond. i'm not going to compromise the school. i'm not going to compromise myself if you don't do the things you're supposed to do. students who were admitted with the poorer grades. >> mike, how much of a risk was now it's very important to distinguish between, of course, minorities admitted with good grades.

competitively, they do fine, it for georgetown given just perfectly fine. but those who are underprepared everything that allen had been at admission have much higher failure rates on these through for georgetown in coach tests. thompson to take al? they take longer to graduate. >> i remember thinking that at there is a higher dropout rate that time that it is a risk, and they're more likely to have problems as residents if they go yet, yet, i know from talking on to the next phase. to coach that it wasn't as much c-span: there's a footnote i -- of a risk as it would have been i -- and i'm -- i've underlined it so i -- you -- we may be missing some important points for some places t wasn't as big here. you'll remember it. a rick for a state school n private school, he had support 'the percentage of black and hispanic students getting systems in place and he knew bachelor of science degrees has that. remained constant, as have those he had support, people in the top of the administration. racist percentages of college >> once your dad made a judgment that this was a yuck graduates. young man we were willing to ella cleveland, personal really give an opportunity to communication with the author, and to have a say in his january 6th: no one really understands why medical school is relatively unpopular among development. these students. >> we were preem prepared to perhaps some are discouraged by take on that challenge. the high educational debt that >> to see him sign at will -- they will assume by the loss of -- of -- or by the loss georgetown and go play of position autonomy in the basketball for coach thompson world of managed care.' was one of the most happiest days of my life because i knew do they really think about those kind of things, you think? >> guest: i think some people do. then that he would be ok. i don't know if that -- they got >> what adjustments did you that information from the aamc have to make from a coaching and i don't know if they derived

that through any kind of formal standpoint coaching someone like an allen iverson? survey or they're just >> i had to consider his well inferring. being as a person, how he but managed care certainly has had an influence on the played as a basketball player attitudes of certainly practicing physicians who say they wouldn't do it again. c-span: well, what -- what did you find about all of us -- about going to people that look because allen is a guy who is so talented that you've got to like us as doctors? give him the opportunity to express his ability. i mean, do blacks want to go to >> he put me in position to be blacks... on a basketball court before >> guest: yeah. c-span: ... and asians to asians and whites to whites? everybody talkbout >> guest: good question. orgeing ig m well, that is, in fact, the rationale for racial preferences schond auarn't in medical school, which is to ve pg thstem say it's a little different than -- from affirmative action -- was sucl in that racial pre -- i mean, as racial preferences, not affirmative system. obviously, he knew what he was action. affirmative action i'm all in favor of, which is outreach. but as far as -- that is the justification for racial doing. >> whoa! >> iverson reverse lay-up. preferences in medical school, that the only way we will close the so-called hea -- health gap, y -- the fact, for example, that we have higher >> iverson has it and he's -- >> you'rr n oby yo stih infant mortality rate in african-americans babies and higher death rates from higher incidence of diabetes and -- and

heart disease and -- and -- and so on, is if we have more african-american doctors, which is different from the rationales for racial preferences other places. there it's more principled. you know, but what even though i personally don't agree with those principles, that they're the principles of compensating for a past injustice or for diversity for people that see him rom, diversity's sake. seeom achi ballbig jog de. yelnd thitnd but in medical schools, it's -- it's practical and one would think it could be empirically thibuust hims tested. but i tried to look at proxies for an empirical approach. can tic,t b in other words, what patients say. way it is. >> sometimes what you say doesn't sound right. sometimes what you say doesn't do patients really want to see? do minority patients really care fit into today's society that much? the best survey i could find -- there have -- there were because everybody in today's several. society are not going to be the the best one i found was from first pick in the draft. the commonwealth fund and it l -- it was done a few years ago, they're in the going to be a interviewed 4,000 patients from millionaire. so, i couldn't afford to let every ethnic group imaginable him think that if he slacked and asked them a series of very back some that i was going to understand that.

>> he would talk to me. detailed nested questions -- wh you're up here eating three -- why do you choose your doctor, this sort of thing -- and they were -- they -- in one times a day and you're sleeping question they gave patients 13 in your warm room and you've possible reasons they could use to choose a doctor, ranging from got light, warm water. >> your mom is down there in convenience of office location tidewater. she's wondering where the next meal is coming from. to 'he was my race.' she's wondering where the heat and -- and in almost every -- bill is going to come from. well, in african-americans and >> they might not even eat today. they don't have no light. hispanics, a little less so in they don't have warm water. asians, that was -- that ranked >> this lady who loves you last whether or not it was the same race. dearly is down there suffering and they asked patients -- they a hell of a lot of hardships asked a subset of people, for example, who changed doctors 'why did you change?' than you are, so don't bring and only 2 percent of them that [beep] in here to me. said, 'so i could get a doctorof >> you want to ruin your my same race.' the highest -- the highest opportunity? you know, and right there i was percentage i found was in a -- was in a -- wa -- smaller -- i would start balling because it was reality, like, if you mess this situation up with whooping studies, i thought not quite as well-done, but where up to 25 ter me up ha percent of african-americans, for example, said they preferred dn'tup hou a black doctor. interestingly, in that study, 12 't beis sin. ou'rg toess percent of african-americans opity be ablo explicitly said they did not want a black doctor. care u but nevertheless, maybe one in four. hereg itnd n so there may be some preferences. at u'reposed and i'm also for people, of

course, exerting their preferences. lik i uld get c-span: how much federal money myself right back on that is involved in this whole issue we're talking about? straight line. coming up on "my life 365" -- eye work real hard to get how much can be influenced from here -- >> i work real hard to get this government and this town? here. >> guest: well, in terms of the i contribute coach thompson, my consumer survivors we talked about, a lot, because they -- and that's why i wrote about family and friends, without them. them i wouldn't even be here. otherwise,who would care, except that they leverage their influence with federal dollars. . nd "e," ow?i jui neough they are largely supported through hhs and that could stop overnight depending on who takes over the lead agency there, which is called samhsa, substance abuse and mental health services administration. for example... c-span: how k -- what kind of money do they get? >> guest: probably -- adding up, i'm even guessing here, i pro -- i don't think it's even more than $15 million or $10 million.

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but... c-span: did -- did -- did you work -- you -- at some point, you worked in -- in dc here in -- what? -- a clinic? >> guest: yes. i worked -- since '95, i've been working in clinics. i work now in a methadone clinic. c-span: where? >> guest: in dc. it's a -- northeast. it's about two miles on the other side of the capitol, down on maryland avenue. c-span: and what do you find when you go there? what kind of folks are in the methadone clinic? >> guest: well, our clinic is mainly for working poor. we do have maybe a 25-percent medicaid population. but mainly, it's people who pay for their methadone and who hold down jobs. c-span: what's the racial mix? >> guest: i -- i want to say about 50-50. c-span: ok. >> guest: the staff is almost all african-american, but the -- and the doctor who owns it is african-american. c-span: because you write a lot about race in your book and -- and what's going on in "pc, m.d. medicine and all this, do

you see much racismin your clinic? >> guest: no. i see -- no, i don't see much racism. c-span: do you si -- see much racial politics in your clinic? >> guest: not as it -- not as far as the relationship between the -- the counselors and -- and me and the patients go. c-span: do you see a lot of what you're talking about in your book in the clinic? >> guest: actually, what i see -- yes. what i talk about in my book is really an effort to -- well, the book is -- is really an expose of -- of what i call political correctness in medicine, the -- the idea that disease and even behavioral dysfunction are primarily caused by social injustice and that doctors and especially public health professionals should take on social justice as a mission. i -- i reject that, but that's -- that's this trend i call political correctness. and i -- and i see it in many venues.

i don't see it in my clinic. in fact, i described to some of the counselors there that -- the -- the multicultural therapy that i saw going on at another dc clinic that i did work in, and they thought it was bizarre and... c-span: where is that? >> guest: oh, that was with the dc superior court. it's since been re -- re -- it's since been shut down and started up again, in, i -- in, i think, a more healthy and -- and clinically productive way. c-span: what was going on there and what did you do there that's different than where you are with this methadone clinic? >> guest: yeah. at this clinic i worked in, it -- as i said, it was part of the dc superior court so our patients were -- were court-ordered. in fact, the context was something called a -- a drug court. i'll just explain that to you very briefly. drug court -- they're now very popular. there are about 500 of them across the country. they started in 1989. and the idea is to divert non-violent addict offenders into treatment, to try to distinguish between the criminal addict and the addicted criminal and take the person who, but for

a habit, wouldn't have committed a minor crime and not incarcerate them, but send them to treatment. and i'm all in favor of that. in fact, i -- i know from my own experience and from alot of research i've done that that kind of coerced treatment works