disparate district provider systems. we were on -- we had begun the process of reform, and then katrina happened. in louisiana, katrina had so many devastating effects. and highlighted among those effects was the awful treatment of our citizens and the total dismantling of the criminal justice system if new orleans. but katrina also had some positive effects. katrina also have some positive of facts and what of those had to deal with our constituents realize saying that indigent dissent was not just something that happened to the criminals in the part of town that i didn't live then, but it broke down the barriers of them vs.

us. the national spotlight, it prodded and legislators to realize that reform was something that had to be addressed and had to be addressed now. but it was much easier for legislators to make those choices because they have the constituents at home who somehow now realized that the devastating effects of floodwaters' did not just limit themselves to those that are indigent. that those waters washed away so many barriers and so many protections that the average citizen in held dear. the fundamental principles again were embraced by a broader constituency and maybe the urgency for reform -- made in

the urgency for reform really necessary, but it made -- it created new constituencies for change that had not existed prior to the storms. and it also had the effect of making all vote per of battles -- turf battle secondary. the entire criminal justice system was in disarray and so public defenders, the private bar, the judicial system, and even the district attorney's had to come together to restore the criminal justice system and so it created a cauldron of efforts and the activity toward restoring those fundamental principles of justice and fairness and everyone had to participate in rebuilding not just the public defense system, but the entire criminal justice

system. i will speak later in another panel about the particulars of the louisiana legislation and experience, but i really do want to stress that is so important to educate legislators and citizens about the primacy of the right of counsel. that has been the driving principle and forests that has burned of activity and legislative initiatives in error reform efforts. and while it indigent defense still is not politically popular, it is practical public policy and it is a necessity and people realize the economic value. just as a last inspiration and hope, when we started the effort

in 2005 and this is certainly a i think the third wave of reform efforts in louisiana, the state's contribution to indigent defense in louisiana was about $7 million. in 2010 we were investing about $28 million in indigent defense and last week in a very conservative state political environment, with an extremely ambitious governor -- pierre [laughter] and facing a billion dollar deficit, the governor has announced in his executive budget proposing and the other $7.5 million increase in indigent defense funding. the and the lesson of that i

think is broadbased practical policy, relying on the fundamental principles of fairness and justice. [applause] >> thank you, senator jackson. when our panelists back together on a phone call to prepare for today and i asked senator jackson how she was doing she replied that she was almost recovered from the battle. michigan has recently been -- michigan hasn't had legislation who introduced recently which would substantially reformed his public defense system. nancy deal has been an outspoken advocate for reform in michigan. as a prosecutor. so nancy, what's in the prosecutor's?

>> good morning. [laughter] did you do this for the prosecutor? and [laughter] now, i knew this was going to be a tough jury to redress, but this isn't really fair, is it? of kay, let's see if it will work down there. can you hear me all, right? thank you so much and i appreciate being given an opportunity to address you today as a longtime prosecutor. but maybe it has something to do with my roots. that would be perry mason. [laughter]

you see, growing up i thought defense attorneys wrote the white horses and were the white hats. you do end --. [laughter] and i thought that all the best things in the criminal justice system or because of a defense attorney and that defense attorneys could right the wrongs and make our system of justice better. so when i was in law school and after i graduated, i started out as a defense attorney. and maybe we should require that for all prosecutors. [applause] i think it makes a difference and i grew up not only with perry but believing as sir william blackstone said, it is better to set to attend a guilty man free than to convict one

innocent person. and isn't that what our system of justice is based on? presumption of innocence, burden of proof, proof beyond a reasonable doubt? and how can you have a system of justice that does not work -- let me put it this way, how are you going to pull those principles of you don't have an effective defense attorney? it's impossible. in our system of justice it will fail if we don't have a competent and by the defense attorneys and as a prosecutor -- you probably want to know how i switched sides, don't you? i skipped a the part of the horse right. [laughter] well, as a defense attorney, you know what i saw? i saw prosecutors to i didn't think believe as i did in their mission and that is prosecutors mission to see that justice is done. i didn't really see a lot of that on the other side.

i saw something else. and i also saw the defense attorney struggling day in and day out and not really able to make a difference because the system seemed so weighted on the other side. and they seem so overwhelmed so i thought i believe in that prosecutors mission to see that justice is done and i think i can do better on the other side. so i ended up in the wayne county prosecutor's office, that is in detroit. we have a little crime, we're busy. [laughter] and so it seems so clear to me that the defense attorney's role in the criminal justice system which just semper and as the prosecutor and so it's important to speak out. i didn't realize it was so unusual for prosecutors to speak out in favor of a proper compensation and effective defense representation until i became a state bar president -- some one word about what i was

going to say again? [laughter] i was told to keep it clean. of [laughter] i think how much power prosecutors have. [laughter] its just not fair. and by touching it? [laughter] [laughter] furthermore,. [laughter] can you hear me? i'm going to try to leave it there and project a little bit to, does that sound all, right? you know judges and court

reporters always ask them to speak up in a courtroom and i believe i'm the only lawyer or other people that come in and say to a judge, can you please ask her to keep it down. [laughter] i found out when i was state bar president and i rode my, -- i wrote a column about the indigent defense in michigan that people -- you want me to hold it now? [laughter] and they said to be a tough group. that i receive so many phone calls and e-mail's and notes thinking me for speaking out about it as a prosecutor and i thought why -- is an important to all of us? that we convict the guilty instead of the innocent going free? if we can return in this in

person than the guilty person is still out there, how does that help and you ask us if you don't have a competent attorney then house our system supposed to work? attorneys on either side in analyzing the evidence, investigating, scrutinizing, making for the right evidence to come in. the tiles are the best lawyers and don't you see if we get agreement here. if you have a good prosecutor to need the judge -- excuse me your honor. [laughter] then receive that the evidence is scrutinized and the right evidence comes in and probably more importantly for the trauma of their something overlooked the defense attorney can bring to the prosecutor. i can tell you how often the prosecutor as up having to find something or something looks unusual and we end up investigating. i would tell my prosecutors on a regular basis some of the best work we can do as prosecutors is to prove that we charge the wrong person and you should

never stop at any point in that system and something comes to mind that we should investigate but it's hard because we're overburdened and that's what prosecutors still speak out because every time they do we're going to lose resources and they're going to lose money and if we get one or the other side it will be less for them. the whole system needs to have more resources. but if we don't have a competent attorney on the other side than the process -- the prosecutor is overburdened and wrong people are convicted, what happens? a long appeal process, reversals always been way too much on the wrong person in prison. the real person is out and that is no closure for the victim either in those cases. it hurts all of us. to make the system work we need to work together. i believe that esmont luther king said that an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. and in concluding my comments, i hope i will give a chance to say

a few more words but this part of it, my comments were written and reagan national yesterday. i don't mean i wrote them while i was there but as i was coming out and leaving the terminal the you to sign, maybe some of you saw it, others were saying the united us than dividing us. and i believe that's true and working together in speaking out we can make a difference. thank you. [applause] >> i am thinking maybe i will stay right here. is this on? [laughter] ok. pervez or charles ogletree mentioned that the documents and information from the sessions are contained on the thumb driving him that his institute, so kind to provide. one of the documents i want to

point out is a blueprint for a safer michigan that talks about what needs to happen in the city michigan including engine defense reform side by the prosecuting attorneys association of michigan, the michigan cherub's association and the machine association of chiefs of police so they really are coming together there. last but not least, amos b. cannon, we've been talking about things that are changing and says across the country but one thing has remained constant. a very early on in its history the public defender service for the district of columbia was designated an exemplary projects by the law enforcement assistance administration and continues to be a model for the nation. how is this pds has thrived over these few years? >> pds was seventh to be a public defender office and has been in place since 1960 when it was known as the legal aid agency and became the public

defender service in 1970 when a the district of columbia reorganize its core system and. i think there are four principles or values that pds has maintained from the beginning, those are independents, training and supervision, resources, and -- parry at [laughter] sorry, caseload management. i can't believe i forgot that one. the independence is the core value i think and it's what has allowed it pds to be successful and to maintain the other three values. when the public defender service and is overseen by an 11 member board of trustees, those 11 members are chosen by five stentor early designated individuals. there's oversight were influenced by the federal system and a half by the d.c. local

system. the federal chief judge's of the federal trial court and appellate court barred two of the appointing authorities, the chief judge of the local court of appeals is another appointing authority, the chief judge of the local superior court, and the mayor of the city. and because of that local political system doesn't have direct influence over pds end of the joint influence of the federal and the d.c. government have a way of counterbalancing each other. pretty much pds has been left alone. we have been able to exercise that influence and to use the board to defend the public defender service when there has been an effort to improperly interfere with the proper functioning of the office and that has happened and in each instance the board has been able to send off threats to the office of independence. in one instance from the board

and we dealt with that as well and now the board of is definitely a tool and a sort of that helps to protect both the office and the clients there ride. our resources have been given to us over the course of those years from today resources -- the city originally been even then the independence was protected because the funds came from the city but they were paid through the federal government so the city paid out that money in two different segments over the course of a. the federal government was the paymaster for the d.c. public defender service so there was no way that the city could decide because of something that pds, they didn't like there to withhold funds because the federal government had possession of the funds. the resources since then have become -- have been coming to

the federal government because of political negotiations happened in 1997 whereby the federal government took over the funding of the d.c. justice system so the government now finds the public defender service and the d.c. courts system and the u.s. attorney's office has always been the prosecutor for adult crimes in d.c.. so we have resources coming from the federal government, congress gives us our funding and support of the the president and we then we are favorably looked upon by the funding sources and has given us the resources to be very effective and allow us to maintain the caseload and limitations for our attorneys. we are very concerned and very put a lot of priority on making sure that those cases get done and that they get down right and that the attorneys have what they need to represent effectively our clients.

my predecessor always talks about pds representation, a better representation that money can buy anything that's true. so we have resources that have maintained caseload limitation, our attorneys are supervised by senior people and those supervisors are instructed to make sure that those caseload limitations are maintained and that the quality control is maintained. all of the attorneys get training before they handle a case. our attorneys spent eight weeks in training and they go from -- including exercises, includes on retraining and all those things put together help make pds successful in helping maintain the reputation for excellence that it has had over the years. i have heard from other public defender offices and people who manage public defender offices across the country that is very much a challenge to try to

achieve what pds has because of a the different resources available that they have an end they think that it's hard to try to choose the things that we have but they do try and re think that they should still strive even though they don't necessarily have the same resources and a press back on those folks who would deny them where find it problematic to increase the funding. we have been in -- we've got a lot of support to and we've been a model, we want to be a model and i've heard other people have adopted some of our programs and some of our values. there are a lot of public defender counties that have adopted our training programs and i heard from another public defender office last night that they adopted our intern program so we encourage people to steal freely. we will never convict you inappropriately of that and we will be happy to have you steal from us.

>> [applause] >> i think we still have a little time so i like to ask you, really public defense doesn't operate in a backgammon. it is linked with all the other person other criminal justice system. how has the criminal-justice landscape changed in the last 10 years and that has had an impact on the public defender's role or conversely in, how has the public defense role changed? >> there are two main changes that pds has seen over the course of its existence. one is the increased use of technology. there is not more use by prosecutors -- a lot more used by tens of technology and science to prove their cases, there is a desperate co-chair -- there is a different culture that has developed in jurors who have expectations with what they see on tv, what can be proved in

science or through science. we have the mda's report which is going to be discussed in the plenary session tomorrow that has vastly influenced the public defender's approach to litigation. our office has -- we still a concept from the chicago public defender and we now have a forensic science program and we have developed expertise in the different sciences that prosecutors used. we use them -- they use offensively but we also use them defensively and offensively so we've developed some expertise in that litigation, dog bites, but fragments. two have forensic science conference that focuses on some of these issues and the next will deal with mental health issues. obviously dna evidence and we have been of very, very aggressive in and try to provide

resources through the nlada web site to the larger community so we really focused on enhancing our practice in that area and becoming a resources and being a model for public defenders there. the other area is holistic defense. there's been a big movement toward free define the scope of public defender work and what it means to be a public defender that our clients' needs are not only in the courtroom facing a criminal charge but that there are collateral consequences whether immigration or child-support that flow from their involvement in the criminal-justice system. we have put a lot of emphasis on developing reentry program to try to address the needs of people returning to their communities from serving sentences, there are challenges related to housing and employment that people have to overcome. drug abuse, every day that make it difficult to transition and to avoid committing crimes

again. so we have a reentry science, another idea that we stole from someone else but by the attack from all over the years. we've had an annual conference, the last in june and had about a thousand and one of the focus is to advise people on their options on record expunged man, the district of columbia passed expanding of the options available for expunging their records. vastly expanded the options. but still very few people actually qualify to have that done. but we bring social service providers and trainers and employers together and it's a one-stop shopping conference for people to come and get it for advice. is very popular so there's lots of different things available and that we have a special education advocacy and delinquency system and all these things are an integral part of our public defense worked. >> thank you.

[applause] >> but by and told that we have -- there are microphones and may have a few minutes before we end this session for questions of their are any. if you have a question that to redress to any of the panelists please come up to one of the microphones. there are three on the floor here. while we are waiting to see if anyone comes up i think justice jerry wanted to make a remark of. >> since i am one of the senior people on this -- senior citizens on this panel, i started practicing in 1970, it used to be a prosecutor talked about perry mason, that's how i became an attorney because i wanted him to be my secretary. [laughter] also i wanted to win every case like perry did but when a first daughter pricing as a public defender we have to worry about the perry mason syndrome with jurors to say that we don't expect anybody to stand up in the audience and confess to the

crime that my clients. now things have changed because i was a child justice for eight years things to law-and-order and csi, the jurors on more and more, they want dna fingerprints. so that has changed drastically and also with a specialty court system with a drug court, mental health corporation, boy that changed and i wish i had that was a public defender in the early '70s for you to divert people after the system. of course, what we deal with and which i dealt with with the returning of veterans the great people who served in vietnam when i came who had to go through with them and i have a feeling you folks will go through again partially when they come back from iraq and afghanistan and have to come up with systems to work on a posttraumatic stress syndrome and everything else that goes along with our veterans coming home. so i think there'll be a lot of changes but it's changed of 40 years i've seen the system no doubt. >> seeing no questions i'm going to take the liberty of the

moderators privilege and ask one last question of the panel. it's 30 seconds down the line. it attorney-general talked about the public and system and the justice system that we want to have that we wanted to be. what's it going to take? 30 statins starting with justice and jerry. >> as a member of the judiciary the judiciary has to take a positive outlook in notches worry about covering convictions and making sure that's strictly with be construed and everybody's entitled two maybe not a perfect trial but entitled to fair trial so i think that's an important thing that the judiciary realizes even though you're elected in a lot of the states like have elected and there's nothing wrong with once saw reversing convictions. >> professor. >> when you look at states that have achieved some measure of reform, oftentimes is because the systems of our truly very

inadequate and the worst -- the system is more likelihood there is of reform. that is in part i think the story of louisiana and i think it's been true of some other states as well. it obviously takes a collaborative effort to in the various states. it doesn't have a -- half and obviously with of just one constituency pushing for reform and it takes some leadership in the legislature and the kind that senator jackson furnished and louisiana and where it was furnished by a well-known rep., senator allyson, in texas. [applause] i don't know this in the office but obviously some of you -- maybe that is some clapping. [laughter] but i suspect somebody else in texas --. it also takes into look for

example as some jurisdictions that have had reform it takes million -- media focus. georgia legislation in 2003 which i declared a failure in my remarks earlier we would not have come about at all i suspect if it hadn't been for the atlanta journal constitution and the focus that was brought to bear or what happened with the las vegas sun journal i think it is in their expos say about the situation in nevada. and it's almost happenstance as to whether or not the media does take an active role. the press in michigan has been terrific in exposing the deficiencies in michigan. "the new york times" has been foremost in exposing and difficulties in new york. litigation is under way in those jurisdictions, but the climate is so terrible. financially in state government these days, notwithstanding all

the problems in new york and michigan which i think are too terrible examples of the north and certainly can be matched in jurisdictions in the south. uphill battle to get legislation through. but finally, i would simply say, since you gave me the micropho microphone, -- >> i'm a quick learner though. [laughter] >> i will just have to make one final statement, or too. [laughter] >> and that is, to the effect that i fear, having looked at public defense in the united states throughout my professional career, and i was involved at the groundbreaking of pbs and help to right the first action of the service back in the late 1960s and early

'70s what i have seen over and what i've seen thinking back on the 1999 and the 2000 conference negative year tenure as from now a similar audience might be convened in washington, d.c. and we will see all of the problems then that we see now unless there is some forward movement by the federal government. and with all that, i simply don't think -- [applause] -- i simply don't think this enormously unfunded mandate in post by supreme court decisions is going to be effectively implemented by the 50 states in this country to the satisfaction of those of us gathered in this room today. >> thank you. please thank a portales. [applause] i know the rest of them will be speaking at the other sessions. i'm sorry i am being given the time. can we go? we can go.

okay. okay. fine. good, great. the real 30 seconds. social us how to do it. >> i didn't know we only have 30 seconds. [laughter] i guess i'm down to 15. [laughter] >> in holly and recognize a flawed public defender system is a flawed criminal-justice system and you can't have a functioning criminal justice system if you don't have a good public defender. don't accept higher caseloads and aim high. >> a transcending policy value that makes it creates a safe place for bipartisan cooperation and cultivates the climate for legislators can hopefully enact practical public policy. >> more leadership from prosecutors and prosecutors would speak about the importance to the general public. i think it would make a difference. more leadership from the federal government, which i heard this morning, and i should say keep it up and it was wonderful to

hear. and resources, lots of resources. did i say resources? resources. thank you triet [applause] >> thank our panelists. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> we are adjourned until the 10:45 workshops. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] and now more from the justice department conference held yesterday with a discussion on ways to improve and change the juvenile defense system. we will hear remarks from the chief justice of the alabama supreme court and public defenders from philadelphia and miami. this is one number and 15 minutes. >> the next plenary session we will serve you desert. how about that? right? it will be nice and quite wonderful. i want to and thank all the folks. it's been a rich day with amazing involvement from a lot folks. i want to repeat again and i will repeat again tomorrow all of you should have received this thumbdrive donated, and all but

he will have the attorney general speeches and many of the presentations from today. but we also have one computer and marlene made it possible to have more if we need them. if something from your office on agency, something britain you think everyone should read or have access to, not only to collect things that leave things as well. so this is a rare occasion that you will leave a conference with, you know, 100 documents that may be relevant to some aspect of what you do at some played in your lives. so take the thumbdrive and see what's on it, but also go to the computers, and if you add things will get them done and i've drafted -- is k. clark here? i'm going to introduce her. she is also someone that is way to make sure this happens with the doj -- joanne wallace as

well. i'm going to draft a lot of people. but try to use these to get the information available for your organization for community forums and other things that might be helpful. the moderator of this panel on innovation -- innovation in juvenile defense reform and its kristin henning who is a professor at georgetown law and the co-director -- sorry. i thought you were cutting me off. you didn't lose that job, did you? okay. [laughter] that was yesterday. [laughter] i were to get a part of justice now. i just took a job from tom prez have an hour ago. co-director of the juvenile justice clinic at georgetown, and was a lead attorney and has been and acted with the juvenile unit of the service. she was there for a number of years. she is on the board of directors on the center for children's law and policy, and has really looked into the treatment of

children in a variety of circumstances including eight states across the country, a graduate of yale law school and also at the georgetown law center. she will be moderating this remarkable panel of people, who have a lot to say about the juvenile justice. please, welcome professor henning. [applause] >> thank you, professor ogletree. when we talk about the need for indigent defense reform, the conversation and strategic planning is often focused on adult criminal justice systems. so i'm a very happy today to be a part of a symposium that recognizes that there are a series of unique and nuanced challenges that juvenile defenders face and that the youth who are in need of assistance of counsel to face that are different than those in the adult criminal justice

system. i am even more pleased that attorney general holder has recognized juvenile indigent defense reform as its own independent priority. as we talk and meet over the next two days, i imagine that many of you will feel like i have felt, which is that large scale systemic reform is often seems to be intractable. it seems to be overwhelming. but what i hope we can do with this panel is talk about and showcase some innovations and reforms that have happened. i hope that we can convince you all that reform can happen with a little bit of creativity, a little bit of courage, a little bit of commitment and a change in attitude about the way we think about the right to counsel for juvenile. now, with this esteemed panel, we are going to have a conversation in which we highlight innovations that have

been initiated by juvenile defender offices across the country. we will discuss ways in which the judiciary and other speakers can support and lead reform in the juvenile indigent defense. and we will also explore ways the federal and state legislators can advance and support the kinds of reforms that we hope to talk about. now, because the structure and the challenges of each office, each defender location is slightly different, we recognize that there's no one-size-fits-all. but what we hope is that by recognizing that the challenges the juvenile defenders face across the country is largely the same, that we collectively can begin to brainstorm about innovations, that we can learn from one another and that we can build upon one another's successes. so to begin this conversation, we have invited a group of folks

who have really been thinking about and engaged in a juvenile indigent defense. so i am not, for the sake of time, going to run through their biographies. you have them in your materials and i hope he will go for them. but i do want to make the introductions. we have congressman bobby scott introduced across the way, and as many of you know, congressman scott, who among his many accomplishments and contributions, has been leading the charge for a comprehensive legislation of the juvenile justice and crime prevention with the youth promise act and we hope to hear about that today. we have next the honorable carlos martinez, the elected public defender from miami-dade county, and i have to stop and say i love that, the public defender, it is the honorable in miami-dade. so that's great. [laughter] and then we have the honorable

sue bell cobb, the chief justice of the alabama supreme court. and we have robert listenbee, who is the chief of the juvenile unit of the defender association of philadelphia. so in the very limited time that we have, we really hope to have a targeted discussion about a few key areas that are particularly important to juvenile justice and two juvenile indigent defense. we hope that we can talk about basic questions of access to counsel, including the question of weaver and the presumption of indigent. we hope to talk about the ethical role of counsel for juveniles and the confusion that surrounds that role. we hope to talk about the juvenile defense as a specialty. also to talk at least introduce you to this notion of juvenile defender resource centers, and to talk about federal and legislative initiatives that might support these reforms and then move us into the post disposition and a public

advocacy. now, let me be very transparent with the audience. i recognize that's a lot. that's a lot to cover in a very short period of time. but what we hope this panel will be is just a preview or a trailer if you will for the workshops that are going to take place after this. so we have all agreed as panelists that we are going to really just introduce you, provide you with a teaser. so, joanne wallace gave her palace earlier ten minutes to respond to questions. i'm giving my panelists to minutes to respond to questions. we are actually going to have an interactive conversation instead is individual presentations. so, we hope that you'll enjoy this conversation and learn a great deal from it. so i want to start the conversation by talking about one of the front and issues, one of the most important issues we face in july of indigent defense and that is the issue of waiver. and attorney general holder

introduced that. when i talk about this issue across the country to audiences who are smart and intelligent but who haven't thought about indigent defense and juvenile indigent defense in particular they are always shocked when we indicate that notwithstanding in ray galt in 1967 there are many youths who appear across the country without a trace. there's been a series of state assessments on access to counsel and the quality of calls all across the country, and the investigators and those assessments have reported that in pockets across the country there are up to 90% of kids appearing without counsel. in other states there are more than 50% of young people appearing without counsel. and it appears that youth are being encouraged both civilly and explicitly to waive the council in order to save time, to save resources for the court, to expedite proceedings among others. children are often being told

about the short-term benefits of waiting council but not told about the long-term consequences of waiting council. and so what we are left with is children who are appearing in the complicated legal proceedings without any legal representation at all. and even where lawyers are appointed for the dewey are finding across the country that the lawyers are being that wanted to leave in the process and the appointments are being terminated too early. so that means the u.s. are to appear in tv to appearing in the probation avocations and the like without any lawyers. so what we want to do is talk for a minute amongst this group about how what is being done to address that issue of waiver and so i want to start with mr. martinez and talk a little bit about what is happening, what kind of innovations have been implemented to address this question of waiting and juvenile

courts? >> good afternoon. florida actually we do have one success. if you have heard me at any of the other sessions you for the gloom and doom about florida but this is one of the bright shining lights in florida. several years ago, eight years ago the florida bar created the commission called the children commission, and at that time franklin been from miami-dade county where there was and is no weaver of counsel in the juvenile court i had no idea about the problem until was brought up at the commission. it was the number one issue that the commission addressed. it was the only one where the commission actually came out with a recommendation to have a couple of practice in florida where if a child was going to waive counsel that child should have an opportunity and meaningful opportunity to confer with counsel about waiting

because the 20 council. i'm happy to see the florida supreme court -- we have to fight in the florida bar in the dewolf rules committee three years in a row. it kept getting voted down and voted down and we finally got it past 25-5, which was a miracle if we had lost so many years. but in the florida supreme court took up the rule and they ended up accepting get about a year and a half ago and that we had some more issues come up and they went ahead and tweaked it some more so now it is a requirement for the to have a meaningful opportunity to confer with counsel before waiving council. >> said that is an excellent first step is getting recognition from the courts. now what is being done and has been done to actually implement a with a practical level on the ground? >> on the ground, thanks to the work of the juvenile justice center, barry university and in part by the funding from japan

to become the macarthur foundation they've been able to try to implement it and they've created with a southern poverty law center deborah shore the parents received it children receive when they show up in court that tells them the benefit of having counsel. it's a very good brochure. so underground that is being done and part of the study that is happening in florida, the work that is happening in florida is they are quick to be studying a couple of sites, jurisdictions and try to see how to make sure they get it implemented. >> i also want to turn to alabama -- of the three legs of the school are not working that the judges should take more than

their share of the blame because they are the leaders in the corker and they must insist that the best practice be used. in alabama we recognized to concepts. one is the juvenile court system is the feeder system for the adult system and number two, juvenile delinquents are not born juvenile delinquents are made and they are either made by parents who were unable to meet their needs or also by the system who is unable to meet their needs. and we certainly have been guilty of that in alabama. as the chief justice i made it a number one legislative priority to pass the juvenile justice reform act of 2008. we were fortunate to get it passed and a lot of the good things for kids flowed as a result of that. >> both to achieve justice and mr. martinez, do both talk about the notion of addressing the way for being the number one issue. how did it become the number-one issue both in your mind and how were you able to build a

consensus within the community that it was important? >> and alabama recently realized we were walking up low risk kids with medium and high risk kids and that should never have happened. we were actually contributing to than getting into additional trouble. and why were they doing that? obviously we were not having a significant role played by the bar, as as a result of the juvenile justice act passed in 2008, we now have probably 90% of kids and alabama -- they have counsel with them. and the reason is that our law now mandates if a child is in danger of out of home placement, not that they can or they may, but they shall have a lawyer present with them in court to eight >> mr. martinez, how do you -- it sounds like an alabama the process was tough, the court down and your jurisdiction, was this a top-down or how was the consensus built? >> well, it took three years to get it passed through one committee of the bar so that gives you an idea.

[laughter] -- of the challenges we face. but a lot of it had to do it public education, individual one-on-one education we had. defenders and key judges are not the state who recognize the problem. i think one of the key things that's very important and i hope it is in the thumbdrive it's the consequences. we wrote in the public defender's office in miami a list, double sided list of the consequences to a child who gets convicted, and i can tell you the arguments i used to have with the judges about waiting counsel started getting a lot shorter and i started having fewer arguments with judges once they saw the consequences, the real consequences to children. the same issue happened. there were some parents i've encountered in the community when i ran for office people would tell me why should like to have an attorney? wants to explain to the parents with the consequences are of the

punishment that it's way beyond what they want, most parents, not all that most parents will be reasonable and say you know what at least i going to give them an opportunity to have an attorney to represent them. >> i can imagine maybe not in this audience that maybe on the c-span audience beyond the four corners of the vroom folks are wondering what is and juvenile court different, as a child need a lawyer in every case? are there circumstances in which we want to get the child treatment and get the child treatment fast? why is the question of we verso important? and i would like to ask bob listenbee to talk about that a little bit. >> the issue of waiver is critical because even with a misdemeanor offense or even in some cases the summary offense ticked up in the juvenile court a child can end up in place and in the juvenile court placement is indefinite so you can go to the placement on a minor offense

and stay in placement for an extended period of time. there are caps of the limit to stay in place and if it is a misdemeanor for a sibling or not supposed to be able to stay in place and fourth in five years but you can go back and have that raised in court and that's why i told you we'd lawyers at every stage of the proceedings. >> it's true the stakes are getting higher and higher in the juvenile court. sex offender registration, we could go on and on. >> sex offender registration as a particularly unique issue especially with the act looming across the states now. children who are 14-years-old or older at the time of an offense who are at adjudicated delinquent can be required to register as sex offenders for 25 years to life. if you are required to register as a sex offender what will happen is that your photograph will be placed on the internet and your address and the school you attend and children will be ridiculed in schools and some cases run out of their communities. there are communities that have

restrictions that see the kids can live within a distance of schools of you are a registered sex offender your parents might have to move so there are serious consequences. if you fail to register that is a new offense and you can be in prison for that as an adult so these are serious consequences for sex offenders but the consequences for the juvenile offenders serious we are working on the collateral consequences checklist up to 11 pages now. it circulated last week. so, 11 pages of consequences for juvenile at adjudications of delinquency is quite significant and every time you come back to court there's a possibility you might end up in placement to read about one-third of children who are in place actually going to place that after coming back from a violation of probation. so it's very critical that you have counsel at every stage, and particularly for violations of probation because so many kids in the complacent. >> and what i think i particularly like going back to mr. martinez initiative for the innovations in florida, the idea

that you have to have a meaningful opportunity to confer with a lawyer because i know in pennsylvania i understand that a lot of the wafers were being initiated were prompted by conversations with a probation officer with the child; is that correct? >> as many of you heard in pennsylvania there was a travesty of justice to read we had about 6,000 children, a little over 6,000 children whose cases have been vacated and the chief justice of the supreme court ordered that they be expunged. of the 6,000, 54% or over 3,000 ways the right to counsel, and a very large percentage of those children into that in placement many cases for minor offenses. we are fortunate to have had the juvenile law senter about to the to litigate the initial cases that raise that travesty to the public attention and we are fortunate that we have had the supreme court act swiftly based upon recommendations by the judge who is a true man of the

commission and ottilie order that those cases be vacated index plunged. this is a massive use of judicial power i don't know of any other instance in the united states where any type of travesty like this has occurred in so many cases ordered to be expunged. we are trying to prevent that kind of thing from occurring in pennsylvania. at this stage we still have the opportunity for children to waive the right to counsel. there was an assessment of into doesn't rebut the national center. at that time 11% of the children come 11% of the 44,000 kids were waiting for it to counsel about 4,500 their doubts. the present time the numbers down between 13 cone 3% so we still have between, almost 500 to 1,000 kids waiting the right to counsel and that is the initial stage. we don't know how many are waiting the right to counsel the post this position stage and i feel that mur may be larger and we are going to need a rule that says you cannot leave the right to counsel or if you can there must be standby counsel and i think that is the direction states will go. we are waiting for the commission to speak on that

issue. >> have to then turn to congressman bobby scott and talk about how defenders can collaborate with legislators around this question of weaver. what information do you need from the defense, what do you need -- what studies, but materials to you need as a legislator to move forward and begin to talk about an act on this issue? >> thank you very much, kristen. i want to thank everyone for coming because i've heard of the new interest in digit defense and quite frankly, they're hadn't been very much at all. i mean, we've been dealing with the crime policy for a long time and we have a choice and the crime policy and that is whether we are calling to try to reduce crime or play politics and we spent so much time codifying simple-minded slogans and so on that we now locked up more than anybody proportionally on earth by far and in the minority community is literally off the

chart. ten states lock up african-americans at the rate of 4,000 per 100,000 to read your research forums as anything over 500,000 is counterproductive. most countries look up 50 to 200, up to 4,000 in ten states. so most of it has been essentially codify and slogans and sound bites. so to get a group like this interested in the indigent defense is certainly a step in the right direction. and you've got quite a group here. steve bright looking at me right here, and i thought that i saw barry scheck but you've got a lot of people working on this criminal defense in the wilderness for a long time. and one of the things that i think is important in terms of what we need is people are really focusing on the criminal-justice policy because if we wait until young people drop out of school, joined a gang, maseth and then the entire focus is on a bidding war back, it's not how much time they are going to serve in prison running

at the incarceration rate. we are missing an opportunity to invest early to get them on the right track and keep them on the right track. the situation is with the childrens' defense fund's calls the cradle to prison pipeline. if we were to invest in the interior lee we could create a cradle to college, cradle to the work force pipeline so we wouldn't be talking about indigent defense. we would talking about college scholarships. so that's one of the things that we need to be focusing on. the trend is more toward the slogan and sound bite so slogan and sound bite so hopefully we slogan and sound bite so hopefully we we americans are always at our best when we hear and heed the cries of others. when confronted with massive human suffering, americans have always stepped up and answered the call to help. but there's never been anything on the scale of human tragedy in our own hemisphere like what we're now witnessing in haiti. y president clinton and i are joining together to appeal to you with real urgency. give now, and lives will be saved.

thank you. thank you. 6' 8, 8 1/2, can do it all. i mean when i say do it all and do it gracefully. i mean with the greatest of ease. >> benji will, so his game and personality were -- wilson, his game and personality were electric, a future star in the nba until one morning when everything changed. get an inside glimpse at the man the nfl mayors have chosen to lead them in -- players have chosen to lead them in the fighnewtive rgaient. 'll uce emar ith. >> t our stin >> and a truy th abou inws tvie'

hello and welcome to this edition of net impact. we've seen nfl commissioner roger goodell and nfl players association executive director demaris smith exchanging pleasantries through the media and have even been in front of congress as the two sides attempt a collective bargaining agreement and as they do so the atmosphere will get more tense. we know goodell he's within on the job three years now but who is this man that the players have chosen to be their voice in this turbulent time? here's comcast sportsnet's mid- atlantic's jill sorenson. >> for our last practice we could play head coach.

>> yea! >> we do head coach. >> reporter: this is fun for demaris smith the executive director of the nfl players association by day and a coach for his 10-year-old son allen and his baseball team in silver vince, maryland, by night. >> tag -- in silver springs, maryland, by night. >> tag him! >> reporter: the intensity and passion you see here is smith's day job as union smith named the successor to the late and edge legendary gene upshaw in march, the man everyone calls dean has not slowed down. >> i've been on the job six months. i've probably been on the road three and a half, four months solid. >> reporter: he was seen as an outsider to get the job with former players as the front runners. his background as a trial lawyer was far from the experience of an nfl player. >> i definitely think that's a positive that he was an outsider, you know, guy coming in, he doesn't have all the connections or, you know, any

preconceived notions of what was happening before and, you know, can he come in and kind of look at things clearly. >> i'm very confident. i'm confident, that you know, he can get things done, whatever that may be. he's presented himself in such a way and i think he's broken it down to the players in such a way that we can understand it. >> reporter: as much as he's an outsider d. is a d.c. insider having grown up a stone's throw from fedex field. >> you come out of the room in d.c. and get smacked and then you're injected with burgundy and gold. >> reporter: on his resume counsel to then deputy attorney general eric holder and he also served on president obama's transition team. >> business worldwide in some way, shape or form always touches washington. it's one heck of a sports town. so yeah, those are things that are inextricably tied to who i am. does it affect what i do? probably. but hopefully affects it for the better. >> reporter: with the possible lockout on the horizon demorris

smith has made it a priority to visit each team to help them understand the process. >> this was in one of the file drawers in our office and it slowly but surely i'm going through every drawer, every cabinet. >> reporter: why? >> a great deal of our history on what we have done internally to be a stronger union is there. the one thing i'm blessed about is gene was an incredible note taker. here on the back he'd clearly written out in longhand a speech that i don't know whether he gave or was going to give, but the most interesting part at the bottom is you see it in quotes, the nfl has always been willing to take a short loss for a long term gain. >> reporter: in the midst of negotiations or perhaps because of them d. and the union have made national headlines on a regular basis. >> as executive director, my no. 1 priority is to protect those who play and have played this game. to me it is probably a little

bit of a combination of half negotiation, half trial lawyer. i mean both of those things are things that are in my dna for some way, shape or form. i think about my grandfather in the pulpit. there's probably a little bit of that, too. as a result, i'm really not afraid of my question. i want guys to be actively involved. truth be told, i probably lean on them in a very hard way, but this is their union. it's not my union. it's their union. >> reporter: always in the line of fire demorris smith is used to the heat. >> i thought that was a -- 17-year-old ben benji wilson was a rising star, a young basketball phenom with a definite nba future. in fact, in 1984 wilson was the no. 1 ranked high school basketball player in the nation. he'd been described as a magic johnson with a jump shot and kevin garnett with a better

handle of the ball and a better perimeter game. luke stuckmeyer of comcast sportsnet chicago shows us wilson's wizardry on the court. >> reporter: chicago may be a football town and baseball crazy in summertime, but at its core in the city basketball is a way of life. we're not just talking about the m.j. glory days. we're talking about the kids who built their games here like isiah thomas on the west side and more recently dwayne wade and derrick rose on the south side, but 25 years ago somebody else owned these courts in chicago, a skinny silky kid with a smile named benji. >> and center for the wolverines a junior, 6' 7, no. 25 ben wilson. >> if you haven't seen him, you're in for a treat, 20 a game. >> i would go and i want to be successful and i do what it takes to be successful and that

is when i go home i study and do my work and go to class. >> kind of corny stuff. >> well, it works. >> reporter: everything seemed to work for benjamin wilson, but especially basketball. >> wilson two. >> reporter: born and raised on the city's south side, he was the middle of five brothers and it wasn't long before that orange rock was the fiber of his life. >> looked like bruce lee with two basketballs. he approached the basketball hoops. just unbelievable what he could do with that ball three fingers pawning the ball like this. >> reporter: and with ben and his ball around the wilson's neighbors were always up early. >> the neighbors used to be furious about being woke up in the morning because he was always dribbling the basketball and one of the next-door neighbors mr. robertson said benji was the alarm clock to

get him up and go to work in the morning. >> reporter: by 16 wilson could still play like a point guard but now he soared like an eagle with his new 7' 3 wingspan. >> bankston drops it down to wilson for a turnaround. >> we used to imitate ben when he shoots his jump shot. it was like he'll shoot it and then put his wrist back like this and run down the court but everybody used to emulate him in high school. that's how big he was in high school. >> reporter: and everybody wanted to be around him. benji's game and personality drew in friends and admirers from all over including the nba. >> ben wilson steps in, scores. >> 6' 8, 8 1/2, can do it all. i mean when i say do it all and do it gracefully. i mean with the greatest of ease. i mean and it looks so pretty

when he was doing it. i mean it was smooth. it was silky. it was just you had to -- he had that camera that captured that moment. i mean he was that type of player. >> wilson slide down the lane. >> reporter: as a junior he was a starter on a lineup full of seniors. benji was third team all state and the wolverines went 30-1 for the 2a state title. that put simeon on the map. >> i think he helped push simeon into a more global nationwide type school, basketball power. i remember our senior year, you know, we thought we were world beaters, we could go anywhere and play anybody any time. >> reporter: after winning the state championship in the spring of 1984 ben kept improving stunning scouts at

the nike all american camp. he left as the first kid from illinois to ever be ranked as a no. 1 player in the entire country. >> he was clearly, clearly benjamin wilson was the no. 1 player in the country. no one came close. >> reporter: ahead how benji wilson's life changed in less than a second. >> ben's thumb was rising and then at midday. >> reporter: a horrific crime on these streets in chicago is on these streets in chicago is remembered 25 years later. on these streets in chicago is remembered 25 years later. we americans are always at our best when we hear and heed the cries of others. when confronted with massive human suffering, americans have always stepped up and answered the call to help. but there's never been anything on the scale of human tragedy in our own hemisphere like what we're now witnessing in haiti. y president clinton and i are joining together to appeal to you with real urgency.

give now, and lives will be saved. thank you. thank you. benji wilson's future seemed secure. just a few years in college before fame and wealth would schuler follow in the nba -- would surely follow in the nba, but it wasn't meant to be. instead there was a tragic turn of events and now 25 years

later benji wilson has never been forgotten. let's get back to his story. >> reporter: ben wilson had it all, sizzling basketball skills and an electric personality, but on november 20th, 1984, it was a gray cold fall day a on the like this one and on vinsenz avenue right in front of simeon high school the day was about to get even darker. >> the old guys, they've served their times and lived their lives, when the sun is eclipsed or the sun is rising it's so different. ben's sun was rising moving towards midday and then it became midnight at midday. >> reporter: at 12:37 on november 20th ben wilson was walking with his girl friend and mother of his 10-week-old son brandon. they were a block from the

school. he liked to gather at a small store around lunchtime but benji bumped into two freshmen from calumet high school on the sidewalk. they pulled out a .22 caliber handgun and shot him twice, one bullet piercing his aorta and the other tearing a hole in his liver. >> to this day i still don't know the story. i've never tried to seek out the story because the only person that could tell is and while the chaos continued at simeon benji's brothers were miles away with a sibling connection that still haunts them. >> i was in library class and i heard somebody say i got shot.

i got shot. i was in library class and i was like i'm going crazy, but then i thought about cain and abel when cain slew his brother and the most high said where's your brother? i heard his blood cry from the earth. right there something let me know that he got shot. >> and as a matter of fact, i had a dream two nights in a row before he died, somebody or something tried to tell me, had a dream that night benji was dead. next day i had a dream benji was dead. at that moment i heard my brother's voice say i got shoot just like i said to you there, came to me like. so this was something there and i was like what the hell's going on here? my mama always say you want the most high to talk to you, you got to be in a quiet place and

i was in the library class at the time my brother was shot and i heard him. when i found out, i went be serk. >> for ery as a

we seen ben on the floor by himself. that's what brothers do. >> they weren't supposed to. i don't like to talk about that but they had to see him. >> they was telling us that he's in stable condition and kenny allen pulled the sheet back and we saw him. we had to see him and we knew he was gone. >> reporter: early the next morning the day his senior season was supposed to start ben wilson was pronounced dead at the age of just 17. even president ronald reagan called the family to offer h

is dead. >> involved in extraordinary young man. >> he was gunned down. >> it's not how long you live. but how well you live. >> then i seen my brother in that casket. oh, tried to wake him up like man, you ain't dead. get up, man. get up. get up. you ain't dead. get up. then seeing those two guys who did it. >> did you know ben wilson? did you know him? >> reporter: after the shooting cousins billy moore and omar dixon were taken into custody charged with murder and attempted robbery. moore was later sentenced to 40

years for pulling the trigger and dixon 30 years as his accomplice. on the day that benji died his simeon teammates decided to play their first game of the season without no. 25. earlier in the day students sobbed at simeon simply overwhelmed with grief, but benji's mother stood tall in the gymnasium. >> so today i speak in love of all of you who keep benji's memory and dignity and be strength v and strength and love alive -- strength and love alive. >> reporter: the wake was held on the gymnasium floor and 8,000 people came to see benji lying in his no. 25 jersey.

the line stretched blocks outside of the school, mourners waited seven hours. >> i still have dreams about him like, you know, he came back and he was able to play again, but just dreams. >> sometimes i sit down and, you know, when i'm going through things, you know, i speak, you know, just like i would to my grandparents, you know. hey, benji, how you doing, that type of thing. i just can't forget about him.

this is very emotional. >> reporter: still an emotional story 25 years later. there are some updates to this story. at the time of his murder benji wilson left behind a 10-week- old son named brandon. well, brandon would go on to become a talented high school prep basketball player himself. even played some college basketball at the university of maryland eastern shore but he would leave after his sophomore season according to a school official and as for the two young men convicted of this horrific crime, william moore is still in federal prison for wilson's murder and omar dixon would tack on additional charms when he was arrested for aggravate -- charges when he was arrested for aggravated unlawful use of a weapon in a separate attempted murder case. let's move on. next summer south africa will play host to the 2010fifa world cup but it was back in 1995

when they hosted another world cup that changed the country, a game of rugby that united 42 million south africans. now clint eastwood's new movie in vic us brings this amazing true -- invictus brings this amazing true story to life and sat down with matt damon is yuntr >>rep on ma ond sporth r tochan wor >> l s ouiny. rep onat inciple that the movie invictus was born. obviously you're a big sports fan yourself. what did sports do you think has the ability to unite people like the way we saw in this movie? >> weah, spare iqued ted o

ite and ela was actually quoted as saying that. i guess there's something about getting, you know, 60,000 people in a space together g fotly sa thou kople ss tcoun caion peooss the . s cawas thiste >> b me paect faces the daunting task of a vide h afogetin the wake of apartheid. what struck you about this story that made you so interested in wanting to do it? >> that it was true. i couldn't believe it when i read it and i called clint and i said i can't believe this stor

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sou i am i am gs d, spiroem. epor lm'stitle us rto aem t mandela used as a sou inspn anngthg near i because the country didn't fall into civil waby l e tionhould have and it's a decision that every single person in that country made. still to come he's a big and bad offensive lineman in the nfl but what are his keys to success off the field?

take a look at san francisco 49er eric heitmann and you'd never know that off the field he's a pianoman. here's comcast sportsnet's bay area's brody brazil to show us. >> reporter: this is the side of eric heitmann people know, an offensive lineman for the 49ers since 2002. and this is the side most would never expect, at 6' 3 315 pounds he's got the frame of a football behemoth with the hands of a beethoven. >> my mom made me take lessons about 10, 11 years growing up as a kid. right around when i started playing football, football

became more of a focus for me and piano you put on the back burner a little bit. it was always secondary for me, always a hobby but something that i always kept up. >> reporter: inside his home today heitmann employs both a piano and keyboard setup inner it connected with the apple program garage band. it is here where the stanford graduate composes his best work in the form of cinematic sound scapes. >> my style is more of a movie classical theme sounding stuff i guess i would characterize it. >> so dramatic it plays well essentially. it's dynamic. >> yeah. i'd like to think that. you guys can be the judge. >> reporter: while football is the profession and composition is the passion, it's the music that gives eric an escape from life when he needs it. >> i'll be home sunday night or after a big game and maybe there's something you need to crank out on the piano to kind of relieve some emotions or something. i use it as an escape. it's a good way to kind of

release frustration or whatever emotions you're feeling at the time. it's something i've done for so long, you know, i've played for so long i don't ever really want to let it go at this point. i enjoy playing and i'm going to keep doing it as long as i can. >> reporter: it's only natural to expect eric's musical endeavors will outlast his football career, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's planning for a future behind the keyboard. >> you never know. we'll see at some point maybe if there's something you can put out there. i'd love to get in a recording studio at some point, maybe not for profit, just something i could show my kids at some point. i'll continue to do this for as long as i can. >> reporter: brody brazil, comcast sportsnet. >> he's pretty good. his team's not doing bad either. that's going to do it for this edition of net impact. i'm your host and for all of us thanks for watching, see you again next month.

>> ? two weeks the acc championship starts. wanting to get off the bubble and get downing. boston college with the size. nc state. acc college hoops. "this broadcast realtime captioned by becky lyon"." >> reynolds coliseum in raleigh. here they come. both these teams. nc state and boston college looking for a win.

looking for an added bonus on their resume as they look towards march. >> rich wall, along with robin muller. rich walsh. tournament projection. coaches and players say we don't pay any attention. i think both teams know exactly where they sit right now. >> with four games left they have worked out every scenario in how they fit into the standings. boston college potentially with some help they win here, georgia tech loss, they have catapulted into fourth place or at least a tie. great position to be in. nc state with a win for them. they are right in the thick of things. middle of the pack and certainly would help their standings as well. >> right now there are ten teams in the acc that have a legitimate shot and boston college has a great shot because of one kaare lin swords. >> force to be reckoned with.

other side is stefanie murphy on that and that's what i think makes carolyn swords so good. together they are very difficult to stop. >> this was supposed to be a rebuilding here in raleigh. nc state is in a spot with a couple of wins. they might be tournament worthy. one reason why a fabulous freshman. >> she is a very impressive player. she has emerged as a leader of this club. last three games leading the team in scoring with 16 points a game. game winner in that upset over miami earlier in the week. >> north carolina state. boston college. both teams looking for. the ♪ [ ma lf torie f all hamm ] gonnt liutte f and like.

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[ wohalfalor the welome, >> rich: or starting lineups brought to you by food lion. eagles. 14-11. we told you about swords and murphy over on the right. we will tell you about jasmine

hill bringing energy and defense. nc state at 14-11. their lineup looks this way. amber white a real key. wild card in this one. point guard. holston. ellison. sylvia crawley won a national championship down the road in north carolina kelly harper, then kelly jolly won at tennessee. both coaches know what it is like to get there and win it. what type of pace will we see in this one? boston college wants to keep it in the half court. >> rich: we are going to see them push out transition on the rebound. >> rich: first

>> robin: first shot of the night. >> rich: coming off an emotional win at home over miami and boston college a letdown at their home. four-point loss to a wake forest team. buries one. >> robin: holston got stuck on the inside. defending well on the interior. but great kick out. starting things off fantastically. >> rich: one of the top freshmen for the acc. doesn't take long. rebound. handling the basketball is not something they do well. amber white with it right now.

things could really change in the backcourt. >> rich: and against the two/three zone i expect less turnovers. nc state very confident in their shooting right now. >> rich: hammered. no whistle. good steal. >> robin: winding up for that shot. it was stefanie murphy coming out contesting. got a piece of it. officials are going to let them play. >> rich: boston college and nc state met earlier this year. january 10th.

blowout win for nc. >> rich: holston. going to do it on the boards. have to do it with effort. >> rich: absolutely. that first take away by ellison was very good. aggressive defense on her part. >> rich: it is boston college not taking care of the basketball. >> rich: this is the inside. defense closing it down. a great look to the outside. rotating to where she can receive the pass. on the reversal gets the two/three zone. >> rich: wolfpack with their rpi right around 43. some have boston college. 41 in the rpi. scare along the bubble.

sonic. that is two. >> rich: nc state has a real bounce in their step. >> rich: scramble awards going to nc state. that was one of the factors in their loss against wake forest. wake forest is diving head first to the ball and we were diving deeper. >> rich: north carolina state. first six points in the game. that's where boston college makes its living. >> robin: that time isolating court down low. on the reverse pass. ellison up high. not able to get down quickly enough. good hands. tight finish. >> rich: thoman.

little over 4 minutes has escaped from this one. nc state and boston college. kelly harper in her first year. three-time national champ at tennessee. she had a really nice run at western carolina. in five years she went to two ncaa tournaments and two nits. boston college. in her second season. you are looking at a tournament resume which would be boston colleges. >> rich: looking to make a case for themselves. rpi 2. top 50 rpis. >> rich: what you didn't see on that was the fact they played their first three games of the year without thoman

their point guard. she was suspended for those first three games and they went 0-3. she joined the ball club and they got it together and they have had a very solid acc playing. you thzon k. ye f u kn ou ht, u'd he ns fast net. youable do sonter... wnloeos ... ancan nd s web sam... f [ ring f [ ga yoot ae ma r soup. malencern yo oe, t no ison at&t. rien buy any smartphone after mail-in rebate get ssagone aftl-ine.

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>> rich: raleigh, the legacy of kay living on. go back to sunday and the hoops for hope, all the alumni came backful it was an emotional day. banner raised. and of course it doesn't hurt to beat miami by two points. >> robin: they played aspired basketball. nothing more aspiring. marissa kastanek. weak side rebound. the relief in the wind. >> rich: she talked about the emotion of that weekend. you talk about emotion. last year the first game after kay passed, north carolina

state was here at home heavy hearts, emotional game and it was boston college that came in here as the opponent. that was one of the toughest games that she had ever been a part of and boston college is very proud for coming in here and winning that ballgame. >> robin: that win. sylvia crawley played against north carolina state. >> rich: boston college can maybe get something going offensively. down 14-5. there is murphy coming off a

rebound game against wake. >> rich: good job of identifying the shooter. runs down the rebound. nc state has missed these last 12 shots. but kelly harper's team still leads by 9. >> robin: when shooting well from behind the arc you can have some wiggle room with your mistakes. it is the defense playing so aggressive right now. doing a great job on the boards. >> rich: white. it is a block. if amber white can get it going

in this game and in the last week and a half of the season it would be a good shot in the arm for nc state. >> robin: absolutely. kelly harper talking about amber white as kind of the x factor. when she is on they are very good. she has struggled some with turnovers this year and one of the reasons they have moved marissa kastanek to a point guard position is to take some of the pressure off amber white. she will handle the ball and will run the point. she tends to play a little more relaxed. primary ball handler all the time. >> rich: nc state stretching their lead to 11. it has not been the start for nc state, it has been the finish. swords. carolyn swords gets a bucket. >> robin: going over top of

the defense. boston college is successful in that possession. they were able to get to the interior of the defense that rotates people. using that as an advantage. >> rich: good move. lucy ellison creative underneath. had to get it around swords. that is boston college's play. 21-point game not an 11-point game. now shut down to 9 with a nice runner by johnson. >> robin: that was a case when nc state aware not recognizing that some defense needed to come over. everybody focused. brittanny johnson taking it on her own. >> rich: marissa kastanek. shot clock running down.

ellison. >> rich: had the rebound. >> robin: boston college defense a little more aggressive in this man-to-man. >> rich: there is the x factor. amber white. >> robin: amber white read that pass all the way. was able to tap it out from the backside and finish all alone and that allows nc state to extend their defense. you may not see a lot of this but every once in a while you can throw boston college off balance. >> rich: boston college has been off balance since the national anthem. >> robin: they really have. they have been out of sync. credit the defensive pressure on the wolf pack. >> rich: that is just a bad pass. >> robin: that's a freshman mistake. >> rich: that's a dozen