but scapegoating has never created a great nation or strong economy and there are nations by the way that try to protect themselves and cheat and there's no question if they were somehow magically to keep other people's goods in but allow hours to go out everybody before that but some nations try to pull that off when they do try to pull the what we have to make sure they don't get away with it. one thing is for sure, people watch america to closely to think we can keep foreign goods out and at the same time selling our goods to the world. host could you think it's fair when you hear from the tea party movement that the president, president obama is a socialist, do you think that is a fair description? >> guest: idle choose at this point to use that term to apply to the president or people i disagree with. it's obviously an incendiary terms in a lot of respects. i do think there are those in his party and i can't speak for the president himself, who would like to see a health care system

like the socialist model systems that would be a very detrimental way for the health care system to move. i'm not going to step away from the fact i think there's a great effort to socialize the medical system in this country, and i think with a very serious implications for our economic future and for our well-being from the health standpoint. >> host: at the end of the bookie wrap up talking about a new commitment to citizenship among americans and you suggest that we find common cause and do less of the special-interest politics. you talk about optimism you believe is part of the american character, hard work, deep religious faith and the like. but you must be aware when people are asked by political posters do you think the countries on the right track for the wrong track? it's up 60, 70, 80% of americans who say we are headed in the wrong direction.

>> guest: i think they are absolutely right. we ought to get it to 100% of the people. that's what the book is saying guess what, washington politicians have put us on a road to decline. they are taking america in the wrong direction. this massive growth of a government, this inability to deal with energy, the failure of our schools, failure of our immigration system to welcome the best and brightest of innovators to the country and instead to open borders to those who are helping america's strength. all of these elements together are imperiling our future. ..

american political scene right now. that is a good thing. whether i am part of the seed or not taebo nidal but we have some great leaders and the republican party who i think will be able to capture the imagination of the majority of american people and of course, of us it is dramatically changed in the next few years if the scores will be ended short with only one term and we will be elected president that will bring us back to a center-right coalition that

are willing to take the action necessary to preserve america's greatness. >> mitt romney the second book called no apologies the thank u for joining us onss after word. >> good to be with you >> it is my pleasure today to introduce shane harris and his book is the publication day appropriate

enough for the international spy a museum just a comment or two shane harris has written a very powerful book. i think we have all read privacy vs. civil rights that has been with us particularly since 9/11 with the whole issue of surveillance of folks abroad and our concern about enemies within. even today with this latest hacking scandal would have the same capability as states we're dealing with extraordinary threats. but one thing that struck me that shade particularly focuses on five people that were part of creating what is referred to as the

surveillance state. it is called "the watchers" and i realize i am i watcher having spent 35 years in the cia, i was more of the watcher than what she but having been at a watcher i have come to understand his purpose in writing this to know that people with the noblest of the motives have created a state which people i don't think are fully aware of. it is there. it is hard to see, touch, it is growing we have a generation and much more use to social media and sharing but for my generation but to

observe the totality at what shane is driving at did this book. talking about an intelligence community that members 200,000 people and a budget of some $80 billion with a formidable group of people contributing to the supper. shane has been writing for "the national journal" and often counter-terrorism. he has a wide spectrum of issues he has written about through the years, political issues, international affairs, diplomacy, was one of the finalists of the prestigious and livingston award for the best journalists in america under the age of 35. only so long you can qualify for that but it is wonderful to be a finalist. [laughter] he has written and asked for comments on by the

atlantic.com slate "washington post" and many other outlets and media that we are familiar with. before he was with a journal he was with executive executives particularly with the senior executive service the intelligence side is the senior intelligence service. he has also written fiction it was entered into the sun dance and have them very wide range i am glad you turn to your hand to security affairs the is my pleasure to welcome you here today and introduce you. [applause] >> thank you for that terrific introduction. it is a thrill to be here

this is the publication date and the launch after the two-year process and it is fitting it is in a place devoted to the lore and a life of people we have been hanging out with to come up with the stories that are in this book. spies are interesting people one thing i have learned of people in the intelligence community do not like the terms buy they like intelligence professional which is the euphemism way of talking about what they do but i am a media professional. but on the director of national intelligence 2007 through 2010 and was achieved intelligence professional when somebody said what it does a spy do or how do you define a spy?

a diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to go and make you look forward to the trip. a spy is someone who will tell you to go to hell and has the means to deliver you there. [laughter] i suppose i should not cast stones. and said i am a journalist but please don't tell my mother she thinks i play piano and a brothel. [laughter] so the last couple years i have been shaping the narrative of the "the watchers" people ask me what is the book about? first and foremost, this book is a story mrs. five men who spent much of their career in the intelligence agencies and / a common idea. with the right access to the right to information, we can

divide the science of future crises are terrorist attacks before they happen. "the watchers" spent 25 years building technological systems to adjust the huge amounts of system looking for the signals and the warning signs of disaster. their guardians and spies and technicians and officials and watch us at the same time of the people responsible for building or running or even tearing down a formidable system of global surveillance capability too effectively monitor whoever wants were ever wants people say it sounds interesting and one out of three would say there is a fiction and i would say no i don't know what gives you that impression brokerages nonfiction, a journalism. you change the names of the people involved? and no. the people you see in the

book are real people and they are alive today. what made people react that this was fans will? one is perhaps the sketch i have given you is so fantastic that it sounds like it must be an episode of 24 or a jury brought climber mugabe of that is case i should skip the book and just go to hollywood or maybe it is just that i have sketched out this idea of a system so sophisticated and coordinated that no reasonable person could possibly believe the united states government was responsible. maybe a little help the skepticism but but what this reminded me is that people often have a great deal of skepticism and as a journalist a historian

writing it is one of the toughest targets there is. people are actively trying to keep information from you. it is built on a craft of keeping secrets and deceiving people. you're looking for truth and facts it can be challenging. imagine you are a theater critic. and you are to cover the opening of a new play and you take your sepracor lights go down and the play begins but the curtain never goes up. you hear footsteps, people moving you hear somebody bumping into a sets and lights moving and occasionally somebody bumps the curtain and you get a peek sometimes somebody comes out and leans over on that apron and whispers says i am not supposed to tell you what is going on but

listen purpose of a comes out and says i know somebody said they thought they know as coming on but that is not going on at all. we will not talk about behind the curtain. this is the world we live in as reporters constantly grabbing parts of the story then go back and taking the step back and trying to fashion it into a narrative. with 2005 and 2006 i was doing a lot of reporting on the national security agency program before it was the surveillance of the program and i will talk about bad as well. i am getting information with the telecom industry and out of government to our hearing things and people with the agency highlight to some sources on the intelligence committee asking for comments and i lay out the story and say

what is your reaction? one of the staffers said you should stop asking me questions right now because clearly you know, more about this story than we do which says something about the intelligence oversight process that is not too encouraging. but this happens as it is frequently the chroniclers of journalism or historians the pick up the pieces. we often see the totality of the narrative even the people in the play don't always see. that is one way of doing this. the second way to build up the narrative is 24 relate -- relationships the public means person relationships with the source although i think the watchers is the laughter or the personal relationships or the heart and soul because it is a story about people who built the systems

and why they did there or what they hope to achieve and what that means for all of us. the relationships began with one individual in particular. in november 2002 i was working for executive magazine which is sort of a premier publication covering the senior executive service. because writing about technology one year after 9/11 there was a day tango everybody was covering of connecting the dots. the government had failed to connect the dots about al qaeda and the events proceeding. the fbi had a permission the cia, and as a but nobody had used the different brought together to have a cohesive

picture and at that point* technology was an answer. or a remedy to go into the database and collect all of the dots and actually making cents her cup even after year after 9/11 -- 9/11 a government agency or a would-be entrepreneur some had a grand idea how they would fix the problem. we built the computer system it took on a grueling aspect with big publicity campaigns. which i can stop and explain and a lot of companies are looking to come to washington. and sell in the middle of the szeged day call from the public affairs officer which

is the of pentagon futuristic brain trust that is where academic scientist and belt things like -- and then things like stealth technology where computer engineers connected their machines to a primitive network that they call the arpanet which we now call the internet. they would solve big card technological problems in november 2002 what was the big problem? >> talking about the animation awareness office with total information awareness had been terms of the cattiness factor with total information and awareness. to solve the problem. and you have that nervous aspect as well.

blinder of public affairs officer said one more thing of interest you might be aware of the official who was in charge general poindexter. i am 26 years old at the time. my familiarity with john poindexter is probably not as steep as many of my colleagues. but i have a quick have a biography of him. he graduated from the u.s. naval academy 1958 top of his glass. had done meteoric rise through the service and was tapped by bob mcnamara about the illustrious whiz kids brought into have assistance on how to weave by wars and we would rise to the service of the chief of naval operations and a career was sidetracked to become a military aid at the white house with the national security council and specifically and despite the

image of the situation room as the nerve center technology was the backwater talking a few phones or computer systems poindexter comes in and they give him the job to modernize video teleconferencing, computers, teleconferencing with this multibillion-dollar computer complex across the street from the white house. he is a genius and introduces e-mail to the white house. they never had this in 1982. one of the first people to do this. and of course, this technological rick greatness is completely derailed in 1986 with the exposure of israel and iran contra affair. poindexter authorized the intelligence committee too secretly sell arms to

elements in iran with the implicit promise they would intervene to try to get american hostages freed from lebanon and then and then would fund the rebels in nicaragua which they said this of -- specific a said don't do. the iran-contra affair threatens to derail the reagan presidency and john poindexter is at the center of it and his career is essentially over such our drought total affirmation awareness that i see poindexter is not giving the briefing but nevertheless let me lay it out for you. the idea behind total affirmation awareness is yes we did not connect the dots before 9/11 or the egg government had the permission in the database but however most of the

useful stuff the electronic britcom is left by the of bread crumbs car rental records, receipts, private transactions with stuff you don't have access to now also in fact, getting access because to get the private and permission to put it together and see if we could not define patterns of activity that bit templates that they plan to devise of the kinds of sequences and the balance the terrorist us to go through before an attack begins perk up morale will fly into new york and gore down one-way tickets and come back two weeks later and then have something suspicious. these other patterns they were talking about people

coming into this country doing things that might look suspicious. could we go back into a database and make sense of that? the second part besides arguably a somewhat scary is a technological component that i had never heard that no one had ever proposed was good reaction the bill in a system of encryption such that an analyst sitting at a total informational room is access to the universe of information could not see a single name or identifying feature underneath it? just love and scripted series of dots and patterns and never know who was underneath? only if the government could convince a judge there was probable cause to believe that the people attached to those dots were bad actors, only than with a warrant could you on lock but cryptographic show and pull the names out and see who the people were.

it's a check and balance. that is a bold and audacious plan that i said would never materialize. it was a research program built-in controversy broke poindexter was in charge and the same this was all very interesting but not much will come of this and it will stay fairly low level end two years from now nobody will know what this was and it will be put on a shelf someplace. i was wrong. about two weeks later bill safire the late great columnist from "the new york times" devote -- devoted his entire column to the informational aranesp programme and john poindexter and at zero din of the total information awareness a super snoop stream every phone call you have made or even a written or magazine subscription or

contact you have ever had will go into a grand centralized government database and who else is in charge of the upper? "the ringgit knocking master of deceit himself was back with the plan were devious than iran-contra. otia had gone from a level of technology of reporters to a national firestorm when poindexter was directly at the center. i wanted to keep writing about this. that is exactly what you do with something like this happens. of my requests for interviews were denied and i was never told why. would go through old records, interview people that used to work there, people and data mining speeches from poindexter with that aim of new-line would something like this work? were they trying to do? two separate the good from the bad? i keep hearing mention of a

network where it agencies' work connecting the system in a private internet and using these tools to try to align or telling cues from the data they are looking at. something was happening behind the curtain we could not get access but in december 2003 the political controversy engulfed poindexter congress poll finding for that tia the office was shut down and he resigned and as far as most people knew he would crawl back under whenever rocky came out of band go back to his existence as a washington pariah. six months past from syracuse university there is at a panel on home as security the 22 talk about the media's role to explain how a security topics

but -- as tempting as it was, i knew that i would not say no when i look down the list of other attendees who i saw would be speaking later and none other than john poindexter. it looked like a small crowd, no other press so of course, i went per or was on the plane as soon as i could get there. i did not know what he looked like i had never seen a picture of the man taken after 1986 procopius like the j.d. salinger of the of spiraled. [laughter] as far as i know he does not know what i look like. i am in of room this size. the other attendees are coming in and i hear a voice behind me say, shane harris. i turnaround and icy of voice -- i hear a voice and icf face and i jumper code john poindexter nice to me you. i am face to face i expect a

the monaco and the bald head. [laughter] and i am immediately taken aback because standing before me is this placid very kindly old man who opens up a conversation by apologizing to me and says our want to apologize and i was not able to take your interview request several months ago. donald rumsfeld up the pentagon had forbidden me to talk to the press after the controversy and everything that happened. iran contra is the iran-contra business never the of bear or scandal. i think immediately and i figured he would tell me all of the things i was right about him.

which is ridiculous. i don't mean you. i don't include you. i read everything you roche. i don't agree with all of it but i felt you were trying to give us a fair shake and interested in what you were trying -- what we were trying to do. i cannot take issue with the facts. >> now they are not being gagged by donald rumsfeld would you be interested in sitting down with me for some time may be to build a profile in the magazine? he said i will seriously consider that. one week goes by and he calls me and he says i have thought about your offer. i will talk to you on one condition. you have to agree to come to my house, do multiple interviews of two hours each and we have to take everything. it has been said one of the problems he said in the form of iran-contra he really did not understand the media and

how journalist think. i knew this was true because anybody understands what it is like to be a reporter and what we the four understand it is not an onerous request 11 of a great political figures of the past 20th century and a student of scandal says please come to my house probably around and ask me whatever questions you want and we have to record it all. these things just don't happen very often. i say i will come out. you wind. we will do it. [laughter] some of this begins a years long series of regular meetings that i equate in my hands. and in the early '70s at that time a completely different generation i hardly knew his past but it deeply interested in his future but we would meet for two hours and have coffee

and every subject was on the table and ask whatever wanted bright ast of the information i could ask about total affirmation awareness. he never revealed classification. i asked about iran-contra the big burning question was did president reagan authorized you to divert the funds from the arms sales to the contract? did you know, about it? of course, poindexter said he did not know that how preposterous could a president not know? he would say no. i would ask him again i thought the third time he picked up his pipe his trademark pipe and he lifted and said you keep asking me that question like some time you will get a different answer. and that was it. we never talked about it again. everything was on the table. it was amazing iran a

profile in executive magazine that portrayed him as a human lightning rod trying to change the world but cannot escape his past. i let him know i was interested in writing a book or was not interested day's show was not sure of the shape of he was interested. i was on his sale date -- sailboat on the chesapeake and he invited over for lunch that consisted of spam and beer. dylex p.m.? i said i think it is great. [laughter] he is cutting up with crackers i will never forget this he just stops and turns to me and says i read the article your roach. good. you know, how to put into words what i have in my head but i can to make myself say because i don't know how. and he was truly this very

human this is what happens when you go very deep with the source that to you build an understanding of trusts. someone lets you into their life not that they like what you wrote you accurately capture them on the page that is what i meant we had a back -- break through so there was no question to sit in a lengthy and numerous interviews to do a book like this. i came to see that poindexter really was a character following barry hy-vee in the book and he was the starting point* of a much longer narrative that bore eerie parallels to 9/11. in 1983 poindexter was a national security adviser to reagan and was on call the morning at a suicide bomber drove a truck into the marine barracks in lebanon

killing the marines as a suicide attack and they were there with the peacekeeping and attempt. most men died in their sleep the last time day loss that many there were stranded the chevy would you might it introduced the concept of fanatical religious terrorism. poindexter got the call that morning and he started to put together the pieces to make a response. he found there were dogs that existed that nobody fuse to gather that somebody warned might be happening march 93 through october 93 the intelligence agencies fielded more than 100 individual warnings of car bomb attacks. nobody made much sense of them but there were a lot of bombings going on at that time. in the u.s. embassy was attacked by a car bomber more than 60 people were

killed at the cia station. the fbi investigate of the bomb it was sophisticated of explosives and commercial materials that magnified the intensity of the blast and the conclusion is sophisticated organization was operating in beirut targeting american but that was never shared with military commanders so they could shore up the troops and finally the national security agency, the chief eavesdropping agency but then with terrorist forces and has a lot in lebanon to make a spectacular attack against the marines in beirut. there's only one place. the airport perk you have these dots and pieces of the puzzle that nobody put together and poindexter realized in this incorrectly said we cannot keep doing this. we have to do better. this can be so he was a number of other officials launched an effort to latch

the different agencies the state department to know what it they had to do and much of the effort much of the ever was blown apart in the wake of the iran-contra scandal and never really recovered especially after poindexter left program is one of the curiosities that ultimately is sometimes really innovative programs are dependent on the people that the them and when that person leaves the energy dissipates. so that begins a long narrative of connecting the dots but soon it was a story that was much bigger than i thought that i never anticipated. in december 2005 i was

having an interesting conversation with the telecom companies and remember my early experiences as a tech beat reporter i have a lot of contacts with people who sell technology and the federal government in the case of most companies is the single largest customer they have all divisions devoted and within that subdivision now talking with my sources december '05 the of the story that just appeared earlier in "the new york times" that october 2001, president bush secretly authorized national security agency to monitor and intercept the fall calls, emails and other telecommunications of americans believe to be connected to terrorist groups without a warrant. this was groundbreaking pro ordinarily the intelligence community if they will do it

in this country you have to have a warrant they have to determine the primary purpose of interception is to gather information was of importance on the hill did not know what was going on it was a wide scale surveillance program entirely by the executive branch in secrecy. they were saying in the intelligence community yes but there is something else they don't know about. what is this? in the weeks or months after that 11 we started to get visits and calls from people who wanted access to the cdr. that is a call detail record an industry term but what you and i know it s that turns up as a phone bill it is a record on a network of

who calls whom, when, how long the call lasted it is a schematic blueprint of the wave patterns of communications move over networks. and what my subsequence reporting showed nsc was taking the information referred to as but netted data but the records, the transit of the information and mining that four suspicious patterns so we have the government agency collecting huge amounts of the information held mostly in private hands i keep waiting for poindexter to pop out it is totally unfamiliar it is informational room is this is exactly what he was talking about but it was real purpose and other research project. but ebitda at poindexter and

tia fit in but i can see circles of activity coming together in my mind. have this point* back in 2003 / 2004 after tia was shut down it was not ended. something big happened to it or kept alive some out. i have pitchers it was kept alive then they laboratory and i viewed the defense authorization bill there is a variation that said congress that pulled funding noted as total affirmation awareness with the exception of the funds is still about for a series of technology and counter-terrorism programs classified next to the budget. that is the block budget where the intelligence programs are funded where we

have to have a security clearance. is essentially this looks like a trap door that allowed tia to escape out of the public funding stream into the black budget. a few months went by and what was one of the most the deep throat like moments in my journalistic career the unmarked envelope showed up at my office in the mail. with my name and address canceled stamp no return address. open the envelope and it was full of documents about totaled informational room is and of the nsa. none of it classified some internal communications that nobody thought would end up in the hands of a journalist but this source and i will emphasize it is not joined poindexter what i confirmed in subsequent communications and reporting that tia had a live. total informational in this

it was half a dozen components and those pieces were picked up by a research organization operated up good direction of the national security agency by an office located the the headquarters. tia had gone away in name only poll of imaginary proposition of can we mine patterns and data if we went to the agency secretly doing it so the world's have collided identity brand was thinking that nsa was a part of the information awareness experiment from the beginning. they knew each other and had meetings at least one meeting where they talked about how they could help each other. there is a rivalry there there is some friendly rivalry and never a feeling

of trust battle is the awareness of each other and with the network but those connecting to this secret internet and sharing with each other and using the tia programs. what i found two years later they actually in 2006 nsa was the only still on that network but had more terminals connected than any other agency in the intelligence committee was the biggest usurper are also found in 2003 when the program was still alive and as they had taken these experimental data mining tools pulled off the network and use them on the phone call and e-mail did it was intercepting without warrants. all without poindexter ever knowing that happened. it suddenly became clear john poindexter the person and the ideas that he expressed were not just a starting point* of the story but the center of the story the animating idea of the

narrative. what did tia have? as poindexter post building a system of analysis matching up from events in the world from information with a fine granular type of way and their privacy protection debris in crypt the data. but two things were found that the privacy research was abandoned. all the other analysis and information collection ideas and the stuff that terrified people frankly kept going with that and officials determine the privacy protection was too costly, too cumbersome and too controversial. that some day would find out you're interested in searching high interest then why would you need to do that in the first place?

so people would try to abandon it. as far as the sophisticated analysis the cutting edge connecting the dots they did not seem so interested. that analysis or sophistication was trumped by an almost insatiable need to collect information on as many people as they could. and as they got to the point* they were collecting so much in permission with fed telecom networks that i write about in the book, they could not look at it in realtime but had to stick at it in a database and look at it later because it was coming in too fast for the systems to manage realtime. so with the emphasis of collecting information and not making sense and collecting for a couple reasons, one. the nsa could do that they have the technological means, access through the

telecommunications companies which is no small feat and a presidential authorization. and this morale the commander in chief executive powers are largely on questioned if you have those three things, you are pretty much good to go. second, this is a peculiarity of life and washington is information is power. more information the agency has a more clout that you have the more leverage and control that you have but from that and as a prospective collection was the source of authority of their power and they pursue it vigorously. the surveillance program over time was known by various names, stellar wind comment terrorists surveillance program the president's surveillance program but inside the administration and was regarded as the crown jewel of the war on terror. this is where the officials at an assay said i think the white house was convinced the united states would

catch terrorists and keep up with them with their global information grid and this is the way we will do hot pursuit of the next attack to swallow the information out there and workday and collected and cover the bases. nsa had a program they had connections to connect the millions of dots on a regular basis to display connections as a series of lines. there is a picture and the book of one of them, the i unclassified version they with literally take up an entire wall and the mass of mines and connections but to the naked eye you cannot make any sense of it this skeptics had a name for this they called it the bag.

nsa solution was the guy to get data three in the bag. you can see the your universe and everybody looked at this and said it is a mess. analyst have another nickname they called them hairballs. i talked to one person at the cia who was responsible for the drug program and needed nsa so they could go find them he shows the cia the hair ball laying out the whole social never again this cia official says i don't need this. what i need you to do is tell me who's asked to put a hellfire missile on. this is really the two different worlds they do see here colliding of people who

need hard information and connected the permission of people who are obsessed with collecting as much as they can and they think will derive some power from that. this is what it has come to for the billions of dollars the we have spent with the faith the government she has lost she created eight regime and it was doing a terrible job of connecting them. what is the consequences? one. looking at an is that people that may be obvious but to connect the deprivation it has real risks of course, that the intelligence agencies would once again missed the warning signals of a catastrophe. and that is precisely what has happened. last christmas as you know,

a gun nigerian man boarded a northwest airlines flight bound for michigan and then tried to set off of a device in his pants thurgood did not go off and was tackled by his fellow passengers and is now in custody. what did this vast operation know before he was on the plane? one. and november 2009 his father to join their ranks of radicals and the nsa intercepted the phone calls in yet been mentioned and a nigerian apply for a new plot. three. after the embassy his name was entered into a massive database by the national counter-terrorism center where it sat waiting for analysts to look at it if he should be on the no-fly list. is also a fact he was

already issued a visa to gain free entry into the united states. the doctor never collected but never connected why? because the place this is supposed to happen it is drowning in data on a daily basis. that means every day between 4,000 and 8,000 new names of suspected terrorists means on its face is absurd. they're not that many viable 8,000 names every day they are expected to follow up. the master dave -- database that alone has happen million names in it right now many of which are in the is is. on top of that analysts have half a dozen computer terminals just to connect to the more than two dozen different information networks and within that 80 streams of brought intelligence. they are not connected there is no system that allows you

to search all of them or there is no google for this information. it is over collect -- over collected and they don't have the tools for what they have. this is why we are witnessing the rise of the american and surveillance state. were culture and policy are colliding but to collect as much information as we can and the afterthought. i propose here and the buck we change our function radically but accept the idea and the 21st century information is free and available and someone will get it and we should change our laws away from regulating how the government collects this making sure the privacy is protected at the same time and neither is happening so then we should ask what is going on behind the curtain?

i don't know if poindexter have the right solution and in trying to convince and he was right and should be doing the and i parkways on a lot of proposals and i talk about that as well. i would give him credit he courted the debate and challenge people to ask these of the questions now while we still have the time to do it. now in the relative calm before another attack is the time to ask these are questions. we put this off at our peril. one point* everybody agrees no matter is logical persuasion, political stripe come on one point* they all agree, if there is another attack on the scale of 9/11 this question of a balance between security and delivered a will be a purely academic matter the government will decisively come down on the side of security. you will see there be driven

by a sense of urgency and fear and you will see infringements on the brigade to this point* we have only imagined might happen. simply put if we don't ask hard questions now the government will collect first and ask questions later and we should not be surprised. that is what the government does best. thank you very much. [applause] >> on that happy know i would be happy to take your questions if you have some. >> that was a great presentation that you gave. what about americans who are engaged in non-violent

political action that the government doesn't like? ps group's have traditionally been in the press, even the president meeting the dali lama today, most these groups did not get such a welcome reception from the government. >> that is a huge concern. with the government surveillance or unjustified of americans yes the peace groups and the 50 or '60s or '70s have been director is. of this is an intelligence community and the man who ran it talks about this as well that wires tapped martin luther king, a two supreme court justices, monitored for protesters, black

panthers, and social activist, and in the '70s when this was exposed and to committees on congress held by the commissions that were very famous, it is a searing experience in the intelligence committee with a whole generation of officials brought up with the mantra we do not spy on americans. that is why after 9/11 when the nsa was shown to be spying on american summit people in the intelligence community pushed back against that characterization and said it was not spying on americans. if you say that today the connotation is spying on them for political purposes to oppress the first amendment rights. the prohibition on that has been pretty well but today we spy on tariffs. if you are in communication

but my fear and i don't believe people in the intelligence committee that and the wake of another attack peaceable assembly or free-speech become luxuries that perhaps the intelligence committee fears that it cannot afford. that would turn back to the battle days of the '50s or '60s and would be a terrible thing. any more questions? i just impressed everybody that much? [laughter] please. >> what is the root cause of terrorism? >> unfortunately you ask made the question of which i am totally incapable of answering. people have written books

about this subject that are far more expert than i on the very subject. but it seems to me that terrorism against the united states is not motivated by terrorists dislike of us or hate freedom but motivated by our policy actions. i am not justified by any means with the use of violence in this appalling and unjustified but looking at the root causes of terrorism, probably we need to start looking at their own policies and realize a lot of the reaction we have been getting for the past 25 years of the form of violence are for a reason not because people woke up one morning and decided they hated america but we have policies they disagree. i will not attempt to give you a discourse of those policies because i am not expert. but it seems we should look to our own actions and

question whether or not we are inviting these responses and not doing enough to repel them. >> it seems a lot of the problems is to have information and you cannot communicate with each other and would it be a solution to have a strong unification like other countries like canada or germany? >> one thing that strikes me is you would not have to go that far why not put spies on the david dae it? that add of these 17 agencies with two different streams of information to say find the 10 most valuable sources and whoever the players are rich ever agency