how many calories his kids are getting. you're probably more interested in what he thinks, how he sees himself, what he's teaching his kids and this is why i find it so baffling that in the united states, although we fought one war with the north koreans losing 54,000 people in the loss and although we fought another war and although we've been locked in this increasingly dangerous nuclear standoff with the north koreans we still are not interested in what ideology they have and why they're doing all this. and in the meantime, we're sort of compulsively accumulating hard facts. ...

east the german border which i remember very well i was a student in west germany and i would go to berlin on the train and we would have to go through this border and on the right you have the north korean border and you can see they are different, this is the border to china and not the dmz to south korea but

still it's a very easy border to cross, and a very interesting statistic is that 50% of those who do across this border into china bribed their way back into the country. nobody tried to bribe their way back into the soviet union or east germany. so i would warn you against taking the hyperbole of these north korean ngos seriously. they like to talk about the underground railroad helping north korea migrants to safety. i don't know if any slaves bribing their way back on to the plantation so we need to realize this is a country that survives of by repressive to someone but it's able to inspire its people still. so that's what i want to talk about how does it inspire its people. i want to stay in the here and now plan to give in to history a little bit and talk about duces because it is not the main

ideology in korea. it was a reaction to this man, the chinese personality cult which began exploding in the 1960's the north koreans felt the need to match the quote claim for claim some he claimed he was a poet and enjoyed quite a good deal of international renown for his poetry so the north korean personality suddenly remembered please which kim il-sung had written in his youth which joe manchin had been made until then. he had the long march for which she was very famous, which he had led his troops and the north koreans who starred remembered the arduous march at kim il-sung hill had taken his troops on. mao had a famous audiology and disclaim of course forced the north koreans to come up with something that they called juche fault. this doesn't lend itself to talk like this but i want to give you an example of what this sham doctrine looks like because it is a sham doctrine.

it exists to be praised and not to be read. it exists to enable the claim that kim il-sung is agreed of ideologues. this is just an excerpt from it, representative excerpt i might add. now i recognize this prose style because this is how i used to write a college when i had a term paper due the next day and i have to fill ten pages and the same time make sure the professor didn't actually read them. [laughter] so i would just repeat things over and over again and make it as dull as possible and that's what you see in this so-called juche fought. now the regime when it actually has a message that it wants to cut across it can do this very well. these are the best propagandists in the world. the most ingenious propaganda in the world, and it knows that when it wants to get a message across that is not the way to do it. this is the pros to use to fill the book spines so that people can look of the book spines and say our kim il-sung is just as great an ideologue has mao

zedong. in north korea ideology is not so much learned from the leaders has learned about the leaders in other words, what people are taught in so-called political study sessions for the fantasy biographies of the two camps. it's not so much what they did as they said in other words. one more interest in fact a north korean encyclopedia entry on the juche tower is twice as long as the juche fought and that tells you what you need to know about juche thought which i don't want to talk about more today. okay. now to go back a little bit into history. do we have any koreans today? yeah, you guys koreans? if you live in cory as i do then you may be a fan of these historical korean tv dramas and if you watch them you will have people may be a thousand years ago talking about the caribbean nation or the race and actually the word didn't appear in the

korean language until the japanese brought it to the korean people and as professor carter of the university has said there was no strong sense of belonging to a korean nation until late in the 19th century. in other words the koreans were not nationalists, they were xenophobic but there's a difference between xenophobia and nationalism. as you can see from this that this is a korean mad from four t-note two. the korean at that point believed their country to be on the outskirts of this great chinese cultural realm. they saw themselves in a sort of permanent student opposition to the great chinese teacher. so, in 1910 of course korean was an next and here you see the korean soldiers and for the first few years of the japanese occupation of korean, the japanese will not their subjects so heavy handedly that this nascent korean nationalism bubbled over into a big demonstration in 1919 which frightened the japanese.

and after that, the japanese relaxed some of the repressive policies that have inflamed the koreans and they decided to coopt the korean nationalism instead of trying to stamp it out and they did so in an ingenious way. they did so with a campaign called [inaudible] in japanese or in cory in which means japan and korea as one body. now you see from that math on the left japan and korea painted the same color on the school map. the message the japanese spread in the korean is that you koreans and we japanese may have drifted apart over the millennia, but we are actually one people. we go back to the same define progenitor. we'll have this uniquely to work racial balk line and this bloodline makes us uniquely pure, mixes also uniquely pure hearted and morally superior to people in other races. so this is another postcard from

the period. on the right to have japan and of the left you have korean in a three legged race around the world the legend says that's cooperate together. now is anybody here from texas? you're from texas? great. the reason i ask if i'm not losing my mind the reason i ask is i used to live in mexico and the texans would come over in the summer, and he would see the bumper stickers would have the flag of texas, the united states flag and the slogan was "proud texan proud american." and this is the kind of attitude the japanese were aiming for in korea. they wanted the koreans to be proud of their koreaness. they urged them to take pride in their history and culture and dialect, they didn't want to call the language. but at the same time, they wanted them to be proud of this creature [inaudible] and this idea actually went down much better than south koreans and

north koreans today would like to acknowledge. by the end of the 1920's, most educated koreans in big cities were voluntarily speaking japanese in their own homes. they were cheering japanese news reels, which showed the victories over the chinese and so on. of course the average -- the average korean at that time was uneducated, aliterate. he didn't have a radio so those people have to be brutally coerced into complying with japan's commands for prostitutes were soldiers or things like that, and i don't mean to downplay the brutality that the middle and upper classes which were dividing of the benefits of this new order really subscribe to it fully. so here you see those two groups. you have the average caribbean peasant on the left and on the right to have a very famous korean the answer. i don't know if anybody knows who she is? [speaking in native language] who introduced the short hair style to the korean women in the 1930's and you can see here

although she was a collaborator, although she donated the enormous sums of money to the japanese emperor, to the imperial army, i'm sorry, you can see from her child's koreans dress that she was still proud of her koreaness the same time. okay, 1945 as you know the korean peninsula was divided and there's a common misperception in the west and in south korea that while south korea was tainted by so many pro japanese former collaborators [speaking in native language] north korea started a completely fresh. north korea purged itself of these former pro japanese collaborators and made a completely new start and that is just not true. in fact, north korea was more welcoming of the former and looked all collaborators than sold. at least in seoul some of them went to prison like [speaking in native language] in north korean no former pro japanese intellectual collaborator ever went to prison, and in fact these people

-- their -- you see and again. these really a egregious pro japanese propagandist's went to north korea in 1945 and were welcomed with open arms and took over leading positions in the cultural appeared is in north korea and this is significant because no sort of the modification process ever took place. they did not receive any kind of indoctrination in marxism and leninism because the workers party itself did dolph know anything about marxism and leninism until about 1948. so in the meantime comedies propagandists were expected to start a inspiring the people with a love of the regime and they did is quite naturally in the same way that they had been doing it under the japanese. so, basically the japanese ushered the koreans and this uniquely pure race and 1945 the corrine and skipped the japanese out of it.

cory in the japanese symbol. that is the historical part of the top. i want to get into the present now with the world view in a world view which the north koreans subscribed derives primarily from a race theory, [speaking in native language] as you would see in german, the notion of the race as being unique and superior to all other ones. when i say a koreanized the japanese symbols, korea had the sacred mount fuji and the koreans decided to elevate the highest peak on the korean peninsula to the secret status which it hadn't enjoyed before 1945. many south koreans today think they've always generated the mountain. the start of this quite recently. and the emperor, who started the korean ressa allegedly, thousands and thousands of years ago, he became a historical figure almost overnight. and there you see the same blood line extending back thousands and thousands of years.

the myth being despite the numerous invasions which the peninsula and word over the centuries, the corrine and race was able to preserve its pure blood line, it's unique homogeny the and you can see the homogeneity textured below. i wonder if anybody recognizes where the picture comes from? anybody reading the news recently, it is from the new north korean currency. and you can see from the face is the people look like loans and that really is kind of the message because according to the north korean regime, the unique strength and unity of north korea derives from the homogeny the of the cory in race. and these mass games and finkelstein on tv and maybe some of you have seen the documentary, "a state of mind," they are commonly misperceived in the west as the stalinist exercises and individualism. we think that the goal is to stamp out their sense of self, to make them all we haven the

same way. and that's actually not the case. these mass games are joyous celebrations of the racial homogeneity from which the strength of the race to arrives. the north korean looks at these displays and seized thousands and thousands of girls of the same height, the same bill, the same skin color, hair style and feels pride in the, jd of the race -- homogeny of the race. the logic is funny for us to think because the race is homogenous it's uniquely pure and this is kind of the logic. because koreans all alike, they are much kinder to each other than people in more heterogenous nation's. here's another interesting slogan from a north korean magazine. i always say north korean propaganda is like a fascist idea what propaganda should look like because you got the left-wing terminology be used to put across a race based message which is actually incompatible

with marxism and leninism. i can't stress that often enough. this isn't a nationalist marxism like you have in yugoslavia. this is a way of looking at the world and almost exclusively racial categories, and nothing could be further removed and marxist basic idea of workers of the world unite. now these are not nazis mind you, okay? no claim is made to physical superiority. rather, just like the japanese before them in a colonial period, the koreans claim a moral superiority. they claim they are inherently better, pure, more moral than people in other countries. the difference to the japanese nationalism is this where the japanese believed that their virtue had protected them over the centuries. as you can see here in this depiction of the divine wind which destroyed the mongolian fleet. korea of course a different history from japan. korea had been invaded very often so the koreans believed

that their virtue had made them an easy prey over the centuries. they believe that they had been invaded so often and it used so often before in power because they were just too good, too claimed to survive in such an evil geopolitical surrounding. and of course, this inclination to look at themselves as the children on the world's stage is tied together with the perceived need for a provincial leader who will protect them and indulged them and allow them to be themselves without fear of inflation. so this brings us to the leader and again, just to make clear the personality cult is not the basis of this world view. the world view comes out of the world view itself, largely, organically so to speak. now this kim cult is quite obviously derivative of the cult that was propagated in the 1920's and 1930's in korea.

i could give you lots of examples, but here's what i could show you quite easily on a slide. sure you have him picture on the white horse which was the sort of symbol of racial purity. the racial purity. and of course kim il-sung was also shown on a white horse, and even the terminology is the same. both leaders were referred to as great marshall, and in korean the word was the same as well, it is striking to me they didn't even feel the need to change the terminology. and of course, kim jong il is also shown on a white horse although as the sunglasses kind of role in the affect a little bit. [laughter] but he's often videotaped and pictured riding on white horses as well. now, stalinism as another word for marxism and leninism. what is marxism, leninism? well, marks himself said that communism was inevitable. he said that capitalism was doomed to collapse no matter

what. so, the revolution was kind to happen anyway, and lenin came along and said no, i don't think so because the masses are not particularly intelligent. they are not particularly critical thinkers. so if they are left to their own devices, these workers were pulled easily into the trap trade unions of demanding wage increases and getting a bill but for every year from the capitalists. so in order to keep the masses on the message so to speak, in order to keep the masses fighting for the revolution, they need a communist party. and this idea is at the heart of culture under stalin as well. the party's role is to make the spontaneous mass is grow up in other words, to instill revolutionary consciousness. and that is why stalin and the communist party in the soviet union were always depicted as fatherly teacher figures and as you can see from this picture what do you think is the focal point in that picture? what part of stalin's face are

you supposed to be looking at? the allies because all eyes are the symbol of his unique mastery of dialect materialism, this supposedly science which was going to transform the world. whereas in korea, north korea the belief was and is that the korean people should remain non-eve. it's all illogically if you are born pure and better than everybody else, it follows that you don't really need to be tempering your instincts with book learning that we will delete them. so it's better for the people to stay true to their instincts for which reason kim il-sung and the workers party are not fatherly teacher figures. instead, they are maternal protective figures. and as you can see here from the picture the focus is not on kim il-sung's eis which you can't make out very well in this picture. focus is on his bill some if you read the north korean poetry the police are often talking about

the desire to rest their face against this expansive chest and the enveloped in the provincial leaders and greece. here's another example. this is what stalin does that night. he gets ready to teach the people the next day and that is what kim il-sung does late at night. [laughter] i showed the slide to one of my class is in south korea and a kid in the back of the class said maybe he's taking the coat off. [laughter] but he's not. what you find a lot of north korean studies because very few people in the studies or these people at the north korea think tanks in washington, d.c. can actually read korean. i'm not saying my korean is in great shape but i find it odd you can be in a think tank colin donley sell refer expertise in florida and i want people to read the language. imagine being in italy think tank and you can read and italian. i don't think that would be

acceptable. any one of the mist translations you find so often riding on north korea is this phrase thought earlier. actually the word i would ask the words present doesn't mean father. it doesn't mean father's de it means parents day so kim il-sung isn't referred to as the father leader he is referred to as the parent leader and that's quite odd, isn't it? if you are referring to a man as a parent and not a father it is obviously were trying to play at his maternal side and that is what they did the number three. kim jong il on himself is on record saying his motherly qualities were the key to his success. so, when people tell you that north korea is a confusion patriarchy they couldn't be further from the truth. this is not a confucian society at all. kim jong il as well. even when he's depicted in military uniform, he comes across more as a sort of south asian or mean matron. he looks very feminine and and

photographs, he looks like a south korean housewife. [laughter] and here of course, you have him with his expansive breast as well that soldiers want to leave their face against. and we tend to think that this personality cult is so observed because he doesn't like our idea of a general. you see general to an american and we think macarthur and eisenhower. we think people don't tall look like this but actually, this image observes a strong psychological appeal to the people of korea. to make clear i'm not actually reading anything in to these pictures because north korean propaganda is possible to get when they want to make a point to come right out and see it so they do say literally [speaking in native language] our great mother, general kim jong il. that isn't all they call him of course. they do call him on occasion father leader as well but he's also referred to as the parent

increasingly had always his maternal qualities are at the forefront. he's always described as traveling around military bases, worrying about whether the soldiers are warm enough and eating enough and so on. he's not and educating figure. the party is also referred to quite a bitterly as the mother party. and this is the attitude that is expected of north korean citizens. i cry of forever in the voice of the child, mother i can't live without mother. one of the signs often held up during parades' is we cannot live away from his breast hamdi kim jong il so it could not be more explicit. so here is the cosmology. that ought to have the motherland, the [speaking in native language] , not the fatherland. then you've got the mother general then the other party and then you've got this child race underneath it. now if he were to show this slide to a social psychologist even to somebody who had no idea about north korea he would say i see an absence of fathers

symbols, and absence of a father principle. i see only mother authority figures. i would expect this to be a country which behaves very spontaneously and instinctively on the world's stage and it is of course what we see with north korea. we see this pattern of events from the axe murders in 1976, when the north koreans just rested axes from american soldiers and hacked them down. the random bombing in 1983 in which the north koreans alienated one of the few remaining friends on the world stage, the burmese. and then this bombing of the korean airliner was off korean airliner in the year before the olympic games. all this kind of behavior which really is nothing at all like the sort of behavior that we experience from the adversaries can only be understood in the context of this race based ideology which stresses the need to follow the instincts of the korean people. the outside world if we can talk about this for it because there's a misperception on a lot

of people that the north riggins only hate the americans come the only distrust the americans. that's not true because if you believe your race to be uniquely pure it follows from that that all other races are inferior to you and this is the message they get across. they get it across more subtle than other things if you can look at the spectrum fortunately it is in black and white but i still do to make it all pretty well. this is the depiction of the 1989 youth games in pyongyang. other words, these are friendly foreigners who have visited pyongyang and are cheering the this fantastic city that they are looking at. the first thing that strikes you is there is only one cory in in that crowd, namely the diet, so in other words the cleanest race has to kept apart from the foreigners lest they be defiled. the other thing that strikes you is the dress of the people. you have to african women, the caucasian woman in the foreground. they are dressed in ways which even today in north korea are considered very indecent.

you have these two blond women in the foreground but look normal and attractive but in north korea wearing your hair like that is considered a sign of bad morals. the other interesting thing is no matter which direction the foreigners are looking their faces are partially obscured by the menacing shadow. the only person in the crowd is evenly lit and attractive by decree in standards is the only korean person in that crowd. of course the americans are the real villains in the north korean propaganda. kim jong il has been quoted as saying "just as a jackal cannot become a lamb the yankees cannot change their savage nature." now, you couldn't get a less marxist idea than that. the soviets were always careful to draw the distinction between american capitalists and american proletarian between the white americans and black americans, between, even between men and american women and children when they were talking about military topics for example. you don't see any of this in

north korea. all americans are inherently degenerate due to their race according to the north koreans. this is one of the ways to get it across. the interesting thing about this is although they have caucasian facial features, they have black skins, and i think that this is because north korea does not want to alienate its few remaining friends in the world most of whom are in africa like zimbabwe. but at the same time, it wants to contaminate the nature of american racial stock to its people. so you see depictions like this. here's another one just to show you the demonize women and children as well. this is a depiction of a korean woman trying to confront the american missionary family which murdered her child so you see the emphasis on caucasian facial features what koreans perceive to be typically white faces. the big noses and sunken eyes. here's the poster that i start off the slide show with three of the legend rates 100,000 times revenge on them yankee vampires,

and i put the year in which this poster appeared next to it because that was the year in which north korea was america's main aid recipient in asia. they were receiving enormous sums of money from the united states at that time, and ironically enough that is when they wrapped up their anti-american propaganda. i think the implications of that are pretty clear that they need this enemy figure in order to rally the people around the regime. and they take this stuff seriously. i went to the resettlement facility for north korean refugees which is in the province and seoul. i was looking, why wait -- wholley and was like high school again because the girls were recoiling in horror and i said to the guide what is going on here? [laughter] and he said they've been indoctrinated with anti-americanism and i managed to talk to one of the young girls after i had done for rounds and she said negative you did a lot of bad things on the

peninsula and i expected her to say the carpet bombing of north korea which was lacking unconscionable and which really did constitute a war crime conducted with so much indifference to the civilian life and this is something that as americans we need to come to terms with regardless how we think about calling about the north koreans don't talk about that very much because of conflicts with the personality cult. kim's son ill couldn't have been protective mother the leader if he allowed the country to be flattened on his watch so instead of that kind of thing, the focus on the completely fictional of rage like this alleged murder of victorian child by american missionaries. and this girl that i talked to said in response to my question yes, you americans did a lot of bad things once a career in title stockley peach for an american missionaries orchard and she was murdered. now these seem like very trivial stories to us that this is the kind of thing be used to whip up anti-americanism and north korea. and far from showing any signs

of fear of the united states and their propaganda, the actual show these kind of wishful filling posters of the american capital being destroyed. so, america is ridiculed as a kind of paper tiger whose day will come. just to talk of the military offers policy which is the policy that the north korean regime is now propagating. here is a picture of north korea right after kim il-sung died in july 1994. you see the weeping north koreans looking to kim jong il for salvation so to speak. now get this guy, you have gray skies which resembles the changing times on the world stage in other words kim jong il inherited a situation that was much more difficult than his father had. this was the message the propaganda put across because the new with fannin coming they could see this famine on the horizon. they knew they could not present

kim jong il as an all around figure just as good at economic matters as military matters. they all knew they had to disassociate him from a whole economic problems as quickly as possible and they did this through the military first policy. the message of which was basically kim jong il seeking to his people you know, i would like to keep feeding you but the threat from the united states has never been greater than it is now so i am going to be traveling around the country visiting military bases 24/7 and in the meantime you got to feed yourself. this is interesting because this was not proclaimed after george bush's axis of evil speech as many people think through this was proclaimed in january, 1995 which was after the agreed framework signed between the clinton administration and kim jong il. weeks after bill clinton sent a kind of crawling wetter to kim jong il promising full compliance with this treaty and weeks after american aid had

become to the country, so afterwards this military first policy was not a response to a perceived increase in the threat from the united states. it was a response to economic crisis, the only way of getting out of this economic crisis and it worked for them. it got them through it even today many north koreans refugees believe the famine was america's fault. the problem was where kim il-sung's legitimacy as a leader had rested on two pillars namely economic success and military strength, kim jong il's legitimacy as a leader rests exclusively on military strength on the one pillar, and this is the problem really of the heart of this nuclear standoff that we are in right now. we are basically trying to persuade kim jong il to climb down from this alert without offering any other place to go. i will get back to that a lot of it later. now this is how the north korean propaganda tries to present south korea to the north korean people. the north koreans now know south

koreans are richer because the information corps that once isolated north korea from the rest of the world is in ruins. so many north koreans now have access to south korean dvds and some of them are even watching south korean tv if they live in the self what correa. some of them are watching chinese tv so the government cannot persist in this ludicrous like all of them are starving to death. so, the north korean regime says yes, they are better off than we are, and here you can see them with their cameras and motorcycles and so on and they're nice cars but for all of the material wealth the south korean people are still deeply ashamed of living under the yankee yoke and the longer to rest their faces in kim jong il's those amounts well so you see them, south koreans, cheering him on the screen and this is the message the north to riggins for putting across throughout the sunshine policy which was a kind of accommodationist policy during which the south koreans were trying to bribe the north

koreans and to be a thing better -- the hitting better. the switch for a while when you had the left-wing government in power in south korea which were giving their best to help the north korean government keep face. there were doing their best to avoid provoking a free. they didn't criticize too strongly. the problem really began in 2007 with the election e. dak because he was the antipyongyang candidate and he won pretty easily. so, obviously that reality of his election was in direct conflict with the image of south korea which the north korean regime had been trying to present to its people. and the propaganda was so stunned by this election they didn't know what to say about it for the first few months. they just didn't mention it, and then in 2008, you had mass south korean protests against the

import of american beef and south koreans from all walks of life took to the streets with signs denouncing myung-bak as a traitor and americans for trying to poison south korean children with a big diseased beef and these protests couldn't have come at a better time for north korea because they played in two the new propaganda line which was that myung-bak kept his intentions secret but of course those beef protests fizzled out. and that is one of caribbean resort to the string of military provocations that we saw in the first half of last year. because this country has nothing else to inspire its people with pride then shows military nuclear strength. i just want to say something about the succession. we all know pretty well with the next leader is going to be. it's going to be one of kim jong il's son unfortunately we don't

know much about him except he was allegedly educated in switzerland but it's not really important who the guy is. the important thing is what kind of leader he has already been celebrated as. my hope was that this new leader was to be presented as a kind of new leader in the, the first kind of leader and that isn't happening. he's being presented as a yondah general and added to that north korea has enshrined the much refers principal in the constitution and its depleted the word communism from the constitution as well so this regime is looking at a military first paradigm for the long haul in other words so return to the graph it's not really important whether the next leaders kim jong il or whether it is his brother-in-law because whoever takes over is going to be faced with the same quandary which is how do we go from being a military first country to an

economy first country without losing reason to exist in a separate state clacks this is why it is so unrealistic for us to expect them to treat military strength for a deal. but say the increase the standard of living by 20% the next five years which would be an awful lot. that wouldn't help kim jong il politically because north korea would still be hopeless the behind south korea and economic aspects therefore number three would have no reason to exist as a separate caribbean state all but it has now come its only source of legitimacy is the claim that it alone is standing up to the yankee enemy come de ressa enemy. so to people more optimistic about the six per talks in the bilateral talks which of talks are supposed to take place i ask where does or three ago if it disarms. what does it do with himself? how does it justify its existence, and none of the optimists i talked to have been able to give me an answer, and

they may not consider this a big problem but we can be sure that kim jong il just realizes how big a problem it is and this is why i am so pessimistic about the process for the arms talks because you can talk a regime into giving a lot of things but one thing you can't make it do is commit political suicide and this is where the left wing and right wing and center in america are wrong about north korea. the left wing is wrong because you cannot bribe or sweet talking country into committing political suicide. the right wing is wrong because you cannot believe into doing that either. the center is on for thinking that you can get the chinese to persuade them to do it. [laughter] so what is the way out? i'm not really sure myself. i think if i were to propose a new way out it would be to shift our diplomatic energy and resources from this free fruitless negotiation process which buys time for kim jong il's nuclear program to the

chinese not in order to persuade the chinese to work on the north koreans but in order to persuade the chinese to allow north korea to collapse. now that wouldn't be an easy job i think it would be a hard sell because the chinese don't one american troops standing on the river and be they don't want to lose all of those really favorable economic deals they've concluded within north area whereby the extract north korea minerals had very good prices. but the example of german unification gives us some ideas. one of the things we said to gorbachev to get him to sign off on the german unification as promised not to station american troops north, perhaps the promise not to station them would be something with the chinese. i don't know what the chinese are a rational people and as difficult as that might be to talk about north korea at least there is a prospect of success which is more than can be said for what we are doing right now which as i said is trying to get north korea to commit political

suicide. well, that is it for me. sorry it took awhile. thank you. [applause] with >> thank you, very much. that was enlightening and entertaining if that's the right word. i mean, to see the pictures to the talk i found that very interesting. i have several questions from the audience, and i will invite your questions to come up as we are starting a dialogue here. we have a few minutes left and we will go a little bit longer if you will indulge us. one question that occurred to me and also occurred to one of our members of the audience is when you are describing the this historical line from the japanese colonial period and correa you talk about the curry

in command that would be north and south koreans and then you're describing the culture and thought that inspires the north korean culture. how do you distinguish north korea from south koreans? >> in terms of nationalism there is a good deal of agreement. i think if you talk to the south koreans today will find a general consensus that because the korean people are not as coming lord rapacious as of the nation's they suffered through history and there is still in south korea a lot of people to not among the young people so much but the generations a certain pride in the homogeny the of the cree and the race and women who choose to marry outside of the race will meet stiff opposition but things are changing in south korea for one thing, and this mess of a pure nation isn't believed quite as literally or as fervently as it

is a north korea so things are changing whereas north korea is an ossified race-based nationalism. >> how does a south korean look at his or her north korean counterpart? >> south koreans don't want reunification basically. they are not interested in that and yet at the same time they feel quite guilty about it and one of the ways which they assuage their own guilt about this is to believe that north korea is simply on an earlier stage of development than south korea so many south koreans when you go on a tour bus as i did two years ago they will look around tall of this misery and tried to shrug off by saying it's like south korea was. this is how south korea was in the 70's. there isn't a very high awareness of north korea among south koreans, there isn't much interest in north korea. when i get class is on the north korean matters at my university most of the students tend to be foreigners.

>> it's interesting. >> one question from the audience, if somebody has left the north korean regime and decides he or she wants to go back for whatever reason, or their barriers to entry? are there punishments that person expects? >> there are barriers with wouldn't have to bribe their way back in the on the other hand i cannot believe that they are voluntary, so many are voluntarily returning to the country if they know that they're going to be punished so the question in my mind is either the regime knows that they were gone for two years and it doesn't care or they don't know they were gone for a few years. either way is this a totalitarian state i don't believe it is? we have no experience historic plea of people wanting to return to totalitarian states to the same degree they are in north korea. and, do know, if you look at things like the ratio of policemen to average citizens slower than the ratio that he would find in chicago, so i don't believe that this is a

country as i said that rules by repression alone. >> do north koreans in your experience to north koreans believe this propaganda? >> i think they do. again, the evidence is in the kind of people who were leaving the country i would guess from my own experience and from what i've read about 90% of the north koreans to trustees get that country or from the least propagandize, least educated sector of society the people who are more highly propagandize, the middle class, educated class is, they are not leaving. we are not seeing intellectual dissidents. we are not seeing a real intellectual immigrants from north korea and that points to me to a proof that this regime is being quite successful and inspiring its people. what we've learned from social psychology is that we all need to attribute some kind of significance to our lives and the north korean regime does this whether you are a bus driver, whether you are working

in the mines or a soldier the regime gives everybody a part to play in this racial mission to kick the yankees out of the peninsula to unite the nation and this seems to me to be quite successful. it looks much more successful than the rifle ideology in south korea which is an orthodox consumerism where you're supposed to earn as much money you can and by brand name products as you can. that's not work against dockery or you wouldn't have such high rates of suicide and depression among the people and if you want to understand why the north koreans are not rushing out and trying to get too softly negative to need to understand that. >> going back to north korea for a moment, this belief in the ideology, isn't it covered by the fact that at least what we read here in the west there is such widespread starvation and there is political repression and difficulties quite insurmountable would be from

many of us but doesn't that color of their view? >> it's ironic that we think like marxist more vanocur riggins to because it is the economy stupid. we look tall politics and political differences in economic terms. we even get the rise of islam in economic terms and think it comes from economic deprivation despite the enormous wealth of the people who big croll islamic terrorism. another important thing to keep in mind is that nationalism is as well-suited to bad economic times as good times when things go wrong you can say it's because of the race, its strengths and when things go badly you can blame them on people outside of the country. so, if this had been a marxist regime it would never have survived the famine because marxism and leninism reason for being was the promise to improve the material life of its citizens. but nationalism isn't about that, it's about making people feel proud for other reasons and

we know from nazi germany were from imperial japan to nations going gangbusters to the end that people can put deprivation if they feel it's for the well-being of the race. >> the media could play a role. what about the media and north korea? one question here, how pervasive is the internet if at all? >> the internet is not pervasive at all. they do allegedly have internet cafe of course closely monitored people can get into. there's a kind of intranet apparently in north korea to which university students can communicate with each other under a supervision. otherwise the internet isn't much of a force. but as i said the information has collapsed and an awful lot of these cds and videos and things like that are coming into the country but i don't think we should attribute too much importance to them. i talked to one woman about

having excited to see a mickey mouse backpack in pyongyang and i said to her the pilots in the second world war flew into battle with mickey mouse painted on the fuselages. my point is because this isn't a marxist-leninist regime but a nationalist when it is more impervious to petro box cultural the influences like that. i know from my own use in south africa that my most racist classmates, the ones who wanted to put a fence around the blacks and let them starve to death performance of reggae music and bob marley and then of course you can be a racist and refer your nfl team which is 95% black and not see any contradiction in that so i don't think people should expect the dvd some of the smuggled products to bring about an enormous change in the way that people look at the rest of the world. the second most nationalist country a little in my view is south korea which is completely open and wired and still dominate by a paranoid where all the picowave looking at the outside world.

spect you have a few of the north korean economy? >> for the north korean economy i am not so sure. the recent currency reform i'm not sure what it was all about. i tend to think that reports of the opposition to that currency exchange which took place last year have been exaggerated a little bit because the average north korean didn't have $3,000 under his pillow he wanted to change any way and he was even happy to see these black market traders taken down a peg or two. my impression is kim jong il probably did not impoverishes own power base. i don't think any leader in his right mind would be crazy enough to do that so i have to assume the people in the so-called core class, the favored political class that they knew this was coming and they were prepared and it was merely an effort to impoverished people who had acquired wealth in on sanctioned ways. >> it's often referred to as the hermit kingdom.

do you look at the economy that may and what i mean by that question is are they so cut off from any kind of interchange and commerce that it's almost a hermit economy or are the chinese there and south corrine genser? >> the chinese are there and they are investing and extracting number three's national wealth from the country. is i believe a hermit economy. >> i should turn off my computer. it's starting to make noise. it is a hermit economy but what i born against is the tendency to think this is a country obsessed with self-reliance and it's not. north relied on outside aid ever since day one. i say that it's more like a [speaking in native language] to read these are japanese youth that you read about in the newspaper who do not want to leave their rooms so their mother basically is to come and leave the food in front of the door for them. why? because they feel that they can maintain their independence

better by relying on their parents than by working together with people than by actually going out into the marketplace and north korea is a kind of state that believes it can maintain its independence better by relying on the outside world for aid the and by working together with the outside world which would mean trade and businessmen coming back-and-forth and these other horrifying things. so it is a hermit economy but kim jong il knows he has to make concessions so what he does is try to open the special zones, trying to sort of seal off these areas to make sure they don't see it into the country at large and he realizes sporadically that isn't working out very well so you have a kind of flip-flop. >> it was once said that the relationship between kim jong il on the and the chinese was the closest lips to teeth. >> that isn't true. >> what about today, the chinese relationship?

>> it was never true. it's interesting to read the archives from the caribbean war and see what a bad relationship there was between the chinese and the austrians. they were furious of the north koreans because they kept shooting american prisoners. they had to raise their guns of the north koreans to get them to back off. the north koreans did not even want to give the chinese control over the real world which the chinese needed in order to transfer their troops effectively so my point is if they couldn't work together well during the korean war mike when north korea was relying on china for its very survival how much less likely or the north koreans to listen to the chinese now when the north koreans have nuclear weapons? what i hear from sources in china is they are pretty much exasperated with north koreans. they are tired of continuing to finance them that they don't see much of an alternative because they don't want the regime to simply collapse. >> that might be a good segue into the discussion about maybe the six-party talks that outlook and u.s. foreign policy.

sheila smith, who is a council of foreign relations a senior fellow and has written extensively about the issues on the peninsula has called this america's intractable problem, the north koreans. so are we looking to the chinese to be the balance, balance i guess is the effort at negotiations which is totally broken down, is that a misplaced ambition on the part of the u.s.? >> it is. i've talked to people who are actually involved in the whole negotiation process and they said basically the chinese of the six-party talks offer the milk and cookies and don't do anything to push north korea to negotiate in earnest and i understand that because as i said before the chinese can have no more success in that endeavor than we can. the north koreans aren't stupid. they know how disastrous it would be for them to disarm. let's not forget how much we are asking anyway. i mean, canada isn't a war

[rollcall] like country but if we look to say to the canadiens if you cut your military and half we will raise your standard of living by 10% over the next ten years. we can imagine what they would say to us and how much less likely is it the north koreans are going to get rid of their last reason for remaining. so the six-party talks i fink just founded on the completely wrong premise and i don't believe the north koreans can be negotiated in good faith. one way we could find out what be to say to them okay let's not worry about fancy timetables or anything. what we want to see from you is a show of good faith in your own propaganda. it's not going to cost you anything to tone down the anti-american propaganda from a couple weeks if you think we are not pulling our side of the bargain you can go back to doing it but let's just see if you are in good faith because if you do want to disarm why are you telling your people there can never be peace for the united states? why are you telling people that regime will be brought on the

united states? ... you change those messages as a show of good faith and that is something we should be doing. we need to go to the heart of the north korean regime problem which is a pedestal that it can't climb down from. >> and that being the the military pedestal. >> before they can disarm the need to be a dividing their political legitimacy from something else. and we need to be able to see if they are doing that or not. >> in your knowledge about the north koreans what could that something else be. >> i really don't know because i really don't see where they can go without devolving into a third or fourth grade south korea and this is the problem many people in the united states tend to look at north korea as if it were libya. libya as you know got rid of its nuclear aspirations and decided to play nice with the united states but there was no south libya vying for legitimacy. cut off the remains the sole defender of what it means to be

plebeian, said he had more leeway. north korea, what can they do? this is one of the two korea trying to show that has the exclusive right to rule the entire peninsula and they can't admit to having made an enormous mistake. they can't agree to be in an economy that is where the south korean economy was in 1975. cynics of the box gets smaller and smaller. >> it's painted itself ideologically into the corner. >> the u.s. has a few troops in south korea, and someone, a member of the audience asks should we withdraw the troops from south korea in your opinion? >> if you talk to any expert on military strategy they will say that it makes sense to withdraw american troops from the peninsula because he would be better able to respond to a north korean provocation. the situation right now is we are kind hostage because anything we would do against north korea could incite the north koreans to attack and they

don't need nuclear weapons, they could do that with conventional weapons. so, you know, i think we to withdraw the troops it would only make us able to respond militarily but it will also with the kim jong il regime under enormous pressure to do all those things so far he's accused the americans of preventing namely unified and the peninsula, and printing the standard of living among his people and of course he can't do that and were we to pull american troops out the north koreans will quickly realize that it wasn't the yankees preventing the reunification it was the south korean people who didn't want it. and that truth i think is going to go to the heart of the personality cult so this would be a harry time because it would be a time which would expect the north koreans to lash out and try to free unified the country by military means but i don't think it is anything that they can't handle on their own. >> what do koreans, north and south or north or south, whatever point, think of the japanese?

>> and south korea interestingly enough, and this goes to the other point i made about the cultural imports since the ban on japanese culture was lifted in south korea anti-japanese sentiment is actually increased in south korea. i remember being in softer yen in the mid-1980s and there was a wrestling match on tv between a japanese man and i think it was an american athlete and the people were rooting for the japanese athlete and i asked my wife why and she said it is basically the same agents, reaching for the asians overview white people and that would be unthinkable now and that is how the times have changed even though the corrine instance for example are listening to japanese music and watching japanese dramas so this dislike of japan is actually increased and number three of course they have always been sort of the race enemy number two. to the united states.

>> there is a question about robert parkin, the christian activist who was released recently by the north koreans. what are your thoughts on his comments and that episode? >> the poor guy. i read about him crossing the border saying i am an american and the last thing you want to do as an ethnic caribbean and north korea is a i am an american. that come to them, is just baffling and the reports i heard as he had been severely beaten while in north korean custody. i don't think that these kinds of things are particularly helpful myself. i don't really understand what he's about to game. i assure his heart was in the right place. but what you're doing there is putting the u.s. state department under pressure to try to get you out which they have to do by making certain concessions to the north koreans. so if you're doing that to bring the regime down, i think you're having the opposite affect your

guesstimate but do you think it was a bit of an olive branch on the north? >> to let him go? no, i just don't think they wanted to keep him there. >> more trouble? >> yeah, more trouble and that is why they didn't want to but the two journalists in jail. the last thing they want is a foreigner or an outsider getting a look at how they treat their prisoners, so they were probably perfectly happy to let him go and response for something. >> well we are coming very close to winding up, and a question here asks about the name tim jeal jongh -- >> kim jong ill. i'm sorry. i get turned around. can you give us an explanation of the name -- >> kim il-sung can be translated as becoming the sun and ken eljahmi can be translated as the true son perhaps. these names are not particularly symbolic for the north korean people because they stopped using chinese characters in

their riding so i wouldn't read too much into the names. it's a bit like etymology in english you can look at the etymology of certain words that we are not really conscious of them in the daily life. the interesting thing is that in the corrine families often the names of the suns will be quite similar. so the first chinese character of the children's first names will be the same one. and this is why the specters i should do of the three sons are similar names. >> what about the daughter's? >> their names are different. of course -- >> do they get the mother's name? >> they can take any name. it's not set or anything. we don't know anything about these kids, and i just don't really understand this western obsession with which one of those kids it is going to be. we knew that kim jong il was going to take over about 15 years and we were still taking completely by surprise by him. if you remember back in the mid 1990's, we all thought he was some sort of semi retarded playboy who wasn't going to be -- i mean, they talked about him

as if he were retarded. they raised that possibility. and nobody expected fourth korea to keep going. that is why we signed a framework. we didn't expect the country to survive long enough for the framework to be a problem. we were still not prepared. so my point is that instead of focusing on what is going to be and speculating on that, we should focus instead on the ideology which of those kids probably have in common. ..

>> stimac >> we're here at this year's conservative political action conference talking to michael patrick leahy about his new book, rules for conservative radicals. so what are those rules? >> thanks very much a night to everyone on the c-span audience. inositol linsky wrote about our rules for radicals in 1972, which is really very good but in terms of tactics. yet their contact exam 11 ethical rules. reused on this type hickson reject in their entirety the ethical rules. basically has ethical rules for the end justify the means.

we think is conservative radicals we have to follow the example of martin luther king and use those ethical principles. i've updated a lot of these rules are what we used in starting the tea party movement back and figure choice of seven, 2009. the very first rule is it's better to be 85% right and quick than 85% slow. we used nine of morency's rules. the general idea is it's rules for a collaborative consensus development of action projects in self organizing groups. so that's what we're trying to do. >> so you are marking figure 27 is the first day of the tea party and that is because? >> well, on february 27, 2009, our groups on third and organized 51 t. parties across the country. and so that was really quite -- with 30,000 people there and we did it within a day and a week

of bricks and kelly's famous rant on february 19, 2009. in the day after that, eric odom put together the attack date tea party website and we kept doing what we've been doing come using conference calls and twitter and facebook and so the rules for conservative radicals use outline for the tea party movement. >> are these supposed to be used when elections? >> well, sure. ultimately it's about electoral success. and it's about organizing projects. it's really the concept that we used its project server leadership. it's basically where everybody is a free agent and we give everyone the respect, but we ask everybody to kind of take the load and start working. >> what's the next step in the movement? >> boy, that's a great question. i think it's the primaries. i think the idea is to follow the core values with tea party movement. imitate government is authorized

by the constitution and fiscal responsibility and support candidates in primaries who are going to support those values, both of the republican primaries in the democratic primaries. there are a fair number of democrats and independents in the tea party movement, especially up in connecticut and virginia beach, virginia. >> was there anything else that she consulted in writing this book other than the lewinsky's rules? >> boy, that is a great question. i think democracy in america was one of the great books of all-time and i think some of the core principles of what democracy is about is reflected in this movement. and so i think that was probably the other book that was most influential. >> thank you very much for your time. >> short. public service is one of the great innovations in american and political broadcasting history. thanks, sonia. >> were going to talk now with jonathan crowe and if jonathan

is all right with that. hi, can you tell us how it's going with the new book. ellis with the new book is about. >> the new book is about modern conservativism in modern america. >> and what does i mean to you? >> well, in the book i really discussed how there are so many divergent views of neoconservatism, punitive conservatism, fiscal conservatism, all different groups, but there's four things i think that unite them all. the constitution, respect for constitution and fiscal responsibility. >> how old are you, jonathan? >> i'm 14. >> can you tell us say that started in writing and your ideology at the same age? >> i got involved in politics at the age of nine years old and i really wanted to know what was going on, who were all these people in the world is that if you about and what do these things mean? i wanted to forming an opinion for my parents are productive or conservative, liberal, whatever your, just no in what you

believe and understand it. and so that's what i try to do. i began to learn more about different issues and i began to form my own opinions and my values are more in line with conservatives on their liberalism. >> we see gumballs and politics at nine years old, what kind of involvement are you talking about? >> i mean, was listening to the radio, listening to my mentor and wrote the forward to my new book. and beginning to understand what i believe and why i believe it. >> last question. are you involved in any actual campaigns right now? >> no, no, absolutely not. except they do have my campaign button, franklin roosevelt for next ex-president. >> thank you come up for your time. >> mr. speaker, the house of representatives opened this

proceeding to televised coverage. >> thirty-one years ago, america's cable companies created the span as a public service. today, we've expanded your access to politics and public affairs, nonfiction books and american history through multiple platforms, television, radio and online. and cable television's latest gift, inexpensive free video archive. defense video library. >> were at the annual feedback conference in washington d.c. were talking to christian kathy of isi books. christian, and you tell us what were your biggest sellers in 2009? >> we had the bug you, classify that dmitri at. that's going very well for us. we also have a rendezvous with testimony which is the history of the 1980 ronald reagan campaigned for president. we also had filled the streets by matt belding, about restoring the principles of the

constitution. >> and what do you have coming up in 2010? >> we have a biography of william f. buckley called the founder of a movement by lee edwards from the heritage foundation. we also have a book called whittaker chambers, is part of our modern figures by richard wright and we have a book called seize freedom by representatives macarthur, thaddeus the cotter. it is restoring principles of conservativism in the upcoming years. and finally we have a book called the closing of the mind from other rightly, which is about the intellectual differences between muslims and western christians and how that needs to be resolved before we go further. >> to have any authors who are signing books here today? >> we do. matthew spalding will be signing books and also craig shirley

prorogue rendezvous with destiny. >> any telephoto that's about isi books in general? how long has the company been around bikes are they a part of another publisher? >> isi books have been around since 1993. were a part of the inner studies institute, which does work with college students, college professors, student newspapers and isi to an extent facilitates that, writing books with intellectual, cultural with the aim to have resources to the culture we've lost in the past 50 or so years. before that, isi also published books not under our own publishing to just go outside. since 1993 with an independent within the institute itself. >> and is the ideological -- is there an ideological concentration?

>> yes. more bringing back the intellectual and cultural underpinnings of conservativism. not so much this is what we need to do now or taking action, but trying to bring back the thought and culture into the movement and just get people to think about it and the topics were seen being played out on the cultural level. >> thanks for your time, christian.

>> good evening ended like to thank you man bookstores for having me here. what i'd like to do this evening is briefly discussed the legal strategy that helped bring about the end to segregation and the strategy put in place by designed by charles houston and put in place by charles henman to stan and his protége and later his coworker thurgood marshall. it will be late televised theologians and cosmetic sallet on the tammy faye bakker, remarked after her husband's fall from grace. she says, we are who we are because of who we were. and your words betrayed not only immature compassion, but also speak to a recognition that the past is always with us. and indeed, as william falconer

tells us in his 1950 nobel address, the path is not even past. and in this way, we as a nation are who we are because of who we were. ours is not a nation that hides from its history or hides its history from its history books. and indeed, one reason why we can be so proud of who we are is in part because of who we once were, a nation that divided its own citizens by race. "root and branch," charles hamilton houston, thurgood marshall, in the struggle to end segregation tells a story of how two men, two lawyers helped take this country from where we were to where they nail we one day could be. it explores how the moment, the brown versus board of education moment came about. brown is not a judicial miracle. it's not the