>> host: john dain among your 10 books written by barry goldwater sen you compare him to harry truman. house do? >> guest: over the years his positions have been forgotten and his pacific's and has become to be viewed by partisans on both sides as somebody who was a straight shooter who told that the way it was and had the respect of the sulfide spectrum and asses history has outcast regardless if

you agreed it lowered disagreed bed to looking at the best interest of the country. and that has a certain charm and well reception to get a good reception with the efforts. there is a nice comparison. uest: i'm looking for him. i'm not sure there is. there are, there are people who speak their mind, but he was, he became a, you know, a unique figure in american politics because of his outspokenness and his -- he took a very unpopular position at the time. conservativism was very young when he started a movement and made it very sensible, it was very common sense conservativism. we don't have somebody who's starting a movement like that today, at least hasn't surfaced on my radar.

>> host: when did you first meet barry goldwater? >> guest: when i was 13 years old. his son and i were roommates in prep school. we would travel up tant, virginia, when we were in school, we would visit with him. it was very impressive. here was this have tall, handsome figure who you'd walk down the senate corer thes with him, and he'd create a wake with the various, you know, police people and other people giving him way. he'd take us around the senate. he drove a 1957, at that time, thunderbird that was geared up like it was the at that time was cleared up like it was the cockpit of an airplane. it had more gadgets and stuff, so for a teenage boy, and being a teenager, he was a man's man and a great figure and charismatic person for a young guy. one of the words that comes up .

explain. >> guest: pure goldwater to put it in context is just that. i had read the senator's autobiographical works where he had worked with co-authors and i don't think they ever found this material and years later talking to him he told me he had taken a lot of material he had composed over the years and put it in the historical foundation. i haven't seen that in his books and when we were going to do another project i realized at that time i said there is really good stuff in here and it is pure gold water because it's not by a speech writer were by a staff person, it's the senator and goes for everything from a personal diary he kept starting when his son died, excuse me, his son was born until his own in def and it's not regular, but there's enough of it that it gets a sense of the man threw a

lot of years it's very personal. he hammered it out on a little portable typewriter when he was first starting it later when electronic dictation became available he would dictated and everything would be transcribed and it boils and well filed initially, but the artists got it in order and when i looked at it i said to barry jr. this tells more about your dad i think in many ways the autobiography is that he has done and we get his sense of humor and a position on various figures in politics. the surprise to me is the depth of the material on nixon i found in the book which was surprised with. the subject his diary got the most attention for so it made an interesting work to put together given the fact it was the original. >> host: want to get to the

nixon material on a moment. to put it in context, goldwater elected in 52 color and for the presidency and so give up the senate seat in 64 and came back in '68 and was elected and served another 18 years. but he ran in 64 knowing that he was going to lose to lyndon johnson; why? >> guest: a matter of principal in many regards. he had been visiting the southcom getting a lot of speeches in the south. realized there was a whole body of a lot down there and a number of people whose views were not giving expressed through the democratic party at that time. they liked him, he liked them and he thought it was time for the republicans to make serious inroads into the south. the part of his diary that he is the weakest on is the material regarding the 64 campaign. that's the smallest bit of the material but we found some letters we decided not to use the letters because they were not call it the same as the

dalia reentries. just a few of those where he was a little better at the end. he thought the press treatment was pretty rough in 64 if you recall there was a lawsuit that he was provoked after 64 because a group of psychiatrists got together and pulled -- one person polled all psychiatrists and said he was psychologically unfit to be president. he didn't much take to that so he filed a defamation suit and i used a little bit of the deposition in that case in the book because again it was pure gold water coming out. so i think he ran in 64 to answer your question to make some points to lay a predicate for what would later become the conservative movement and would be followed up by ronald reagan and with all goldwater in '64 he wouldn't have had ronald reagan later.

>> host: you compare the style of richard nixon after he lost in 62 when he ran for the governor of california to the state of barry goldwater in '64 and in the statement he said i've never seen or heard in my life going back to the media such vitriolic on bye guest attacks on one man as has been directed to me. never in my life have i seen inflammatory language was used by some men who know better. i think these people for frankly their shoddy behavior should hang their heads in shame because i think they've made the state a sorry sadness. >> guest: i think the thing would differ from what nixon's it is you don't have very goldwater to kick around anymore. he was very upset. in fact, he famously said, you know, if i had to vote for the goldwater portrayed in the media and 64i wouldn't have voted for it. that wasn't me. i didn't recognize the character the media portrayed it as a he had a very tough time in 64 with the media and he was provoked at

that election conference to lead off for what it was. >> host: he left his typewriter, didn't he? >> guest: it was actually a portable typewriter. he would take it out on his camping trips with him. he typed pretty well but we have found a few errors we have to correct but they got much fuller when he was able to dictate. >> host: two entries i want to ask you to elaborate on. one is in january 27, 1991 and he's writing about richard nixon. this is in his diary, not a letter to the then president. looking back of surpassed months i amazed the ineptitude president nixon has shown in the operation of government. this amazes me because if there is a politically astute and all in american politics, it is nixon, said barry goldwater. i believe the trouble to be in he has allowed himself to be surrounded by people who really aren't too smart in the field of

politics so he does not know what is going on. >> guest: he shared with his diary his house lots many of which he shared with the president and some of their conversations. he stayed with nixon as we all know right up until the end and then some after nixon went to st. clair mehdi and he would go out and visit to see how the temperature was and it's very late in the game that barry goldwater finally breaks with richard nixon because nixon is trying to cause a hard time for jerry ford when ford was going to run for president and goldwater got disgusted and said this man has been lying to me for a long time and i've had it. and they just broke and after that there was never any relationship further. >> host: in a letter that he wrote to richard nixon, june 20,

1963, still very much supportive of the president he began by singing a dear mr. president frankly i think i should start over by saying deer dick because i'm writing to myself as i should quickly detect. it's a letter he pinned on the typewriter talking about the people surrounding him in the white house and also said you need to come to congress. people in congress need to know their president is listening to them. he also mentions watergate in this letter. can you elaborate? >> guest: there was a private letter he typed out literally at his apartment and he got it to the president. he did not get a response to it so it was not a successful effort to get that point, nixon had withdrawn deeply to himself and i sure someone like al hagan looked at this letter and it's right up to the president worse. we shouldn't get that in. >> host: it is a long letter. >> guest: it is a long letter and lays out a lot of faults. goldwater at that point is trying to give the president his

seasoned advice of how to proceed. but those of us on the other side who know that part of the story realize that mix -- nixon knew there was little he could do to salvage the situation. >> host: in the book the rehnquist choice you note that any president since fdr, richard nixon molded the core to the political liking to beat halted the rehnquist decision today to that? >> guest: of course the rehnquist book i have and reread it. i had decided having done a book for brian whammo on this show, the harding book, and he called me in fact i couldn't remember. i had to be read my books before a visit with you. i really enjoy the rehnquist book because it is a book that disappeared. it came out the week before 9/11 to read and as a result of not

having osama in the title disappear. maybe it is a book that most historians write me about because it is based literally on the tapes that occurred in the oval office between nixon and people talking about the staff. i'm not in there. they were able to put together a remarkable story that is timely now because they are about to -- the potential is real. we are going to put another justice or to on the court in the fall of 71. two seats and the story i tell and i call it the rehnquist choice a little bit for a literary device because rehnquist doesn't come up until the very end of the book. he is selected in the last 24 hours of the process much to rehnquist's supplies who was doing it somewhat as i was doing at the white house he was developing candidates doing preliminary vetting. the white house was getting upset with the fact of

candidates like hands worth and carswell who were rejected by the senate were not well fitted candidates, so the white house ehrlichman, my predecessor as white house counsel had gotten into it. the president had gotten into it. but was still pretty much mitchell and nixon. and barry goldwater for example called in at one point he can't remember rehnquist's name but he said there is this guy that you thought working for you mr. president who is the president's lawyer you should think about. nixon understands who he's talking about so she's dropped in but it is ignored. rehnquist is selected because i happen to have worked at the department of justice, too. nixon was desperate to find a true conservative to put on the court. and they were scrambling. it shows as refined as you might think that process is it is a lot of catch as catch can. it's a lot of who can we get

available to confirm that a given time. so this book sort of walks a reader through how that process unfolded with a record of the likes of which he will never have because no president is ever going to tape again. but in a way, rehnquist was my candidate because of a new bill and i knew he was conservatives conservative and why he believed the way he did. i was frankly leader shocked to the degree to his conservatism and i thought he would actually be a little bit more moderate on the court and he turned up to be. but that's another story. but there was a right time and i suggested to my staff and happened to mention another guy who happened to walk in to mix in's office, and he has selected -- he has got in his mind howard baker and lewis powell. lewis powell would of course be nominated but howard baker is dithering. he can't decide whether he wants

to go on the court or not. howard baker for the listeners who might have forgotten was the minority leader of the senator, a fairly young minority leader at that. and somebody who nixon thought would make a good justice and probably would have. but we later learned that baker had kids he had to put through college. he was worried about the finances of the job like that which still doesn't pay well. it's a real sacrifice for a lot of men to go on the high court. so, i had suggested rehnquist to dick moore who happens to get into a conversation with nixon, who at this point is holding it very close to the chest. and so rehnquist -- the naim gets thrown in. and while he's been thinking about it is not until richard moore mentioned, i mentioned something to rehnquist that he had clerked for a law clerk for

robert jackson. robert jackson is a great justice by any partisan definition whether republican or democrat. nixon recognized that. that seemed to close the deal through suddenly now he's not very interested in the eckert. then when he learns that rehnquist they thought was number two and moore had that wrong. he was number one in his class and nixon had been beat up for some of the people he suggested along the way. so, that's -- the was a fascinating story to together how rehnquist did get the nomination. the problem with the book and the end of the book is rehnquist was never visited for the job and that created its own set of problems. >> host: and get in one of reference you or somebody else describes rehnquist as a clown based on his -- >> guest: that's mixing. that is a much earlier situation. after the pentagon papers were released that brought to mix in's mind again that there is so

much over classification of documents and government he wanted to create a pretty high level group that would address and tackle the problem declassifying papers. so what he did is selected a small panel, put bill rehnquist in charge. he had never met bill rehnquist and we are having a conference in the outer office of his executive office building in the conference room. he comes in because he wants to charge the group and tell what he's got in mind and why he wants the peepers declassified, and rehnquist does a little talk and so on and so forth and on the way out the president signals for me to follow him and he says to me john, who is the clown leading the meeting and i said i don't know what you mean. he said well he knows i am a little baffled. well he's got these long -- at that point he had long sideburns and he was wearing hush puppies.

we haven't seen a lot of hush puppies in the quarters of the white house. and so bill for some of the worst neckties' i'd ever seen. it helped him wearing robes a lot when he was a judge because they just seemed to be clashing the choices and so nixon reacted to that and he also said is he jewish and i said no, mr. president. i think that he scandinavian. he shook his head and walked off the office. and he couldn't remember his name after that he comes up later and calls him renchquist or something like that and ehrlichman at one of the times corrected him. so he didn't know well the man he appointed and i think that when he left the presidency he felt that might have been one of the greatest decisions. >> host: in the book conservatives with of conscience is conservatism a movement or is it an ideology?

>> guest: it's both. it is at least an ideology. one of the things i try to do in that book is get a good definition, a good working definition of conservatism. and i talked to i can't tell how many conservatives. i look at the work of conservative intellectuals and if there is anything they seem to agree upon particularly the more intellectuals is that you can't define adequately conservatism and so they don't try to do so. bill buckley is thrown out some rather obtuse definitions. other scholars have raised the problem of the difficulty of defining it. barry goldwater actually is somebody that cranked out three columns a week for four years for the la times and came up with a good -- certainly for a politician working definition that he thought was there is stalling on the value of the past the best of them in that ye to the present.

but he never really did come up with a totally satisfactory definition. but it became a movement. there was no question those were not incompatible but you don't have a definition but to develop a movement because i think it is as much as anything in attitude. in the book for example i try to give a broad spread for people particularly those who don't know anything about conservatism and most conservatives i talked to agree with the difficulty of defining its. but i think it's more of an attitude in many regards and approach than an ideology so i don't think it has the typical traits of an ideology but the movement obviously is something that is since the 50's and is still as we see in the iteration and the tea party movement. >> host: our conversation, three hours on "in depth,"

seized in booktv. john dean serve with nixon. he's written ten books and will be with us to take your phone calls. 202-737-0002 for the eastern and central and for those of you in the mountain and pacific, 202-737-0002. our e-mail address is booktv@si stambaugh cord and you can join online at twitter.com. let's talk about watergate. actually let's go back to the moment you were asked to serve as counsel. what does it -- was a job that you want it? >> guest: i was totally surprised. bud growth asked me to come to the white house and we walked by that the lips and he said ehrlichman has moved out of the council chair and there's a big discussion internally in the white house about who's going to become the council and i've been asked to ask if you're interested in the job. i said it is a great job but

unavailable friends including you with the white house and you guys work around the clock can't see very little satisfaction. i'm over it justice. i enjoy my job and had been to know at that point about where i stood in the department of justice. they have something called -- we saw it on the 9/11 actually been there is a threat to the detriment there is emergency given the procedures, and you can all get whisked off integrate caves at the department justice. and i looked at the memo describing where i was in the ranking. i realized if 12 persons in the office didn't make it i would become attorney general. so i was ranked number 13 at a fairly young age. and john mitchell told me you're going to get -- there will be higher options for you at the

justice department. when i mentioned to both mitchell and client they discouraged me from going to the white house for that very reason. they said we would like to keep you hear the department. we like your work and think he will have a -- find yourself going up the ladder. >> host: what was the relationship like between john mitchell and nixon over the years? >> guest: at that point it was very close. mitchell had been mixing's law partner in new york. there had been to firms that emerged. they met. nixon liked mitchell. that's why he become the campaign manager and a 68 race. he found that mitchell new politicians, state, local, politicians as a result of doing wall street bonds for state and municipal governments. he was a wonderful contact for that reason. he wasn't a particular political animal in that sense like for a

presidential race. but nixon always virtually ran his own campaigns so when he became attorney general excuse me when we became president nixon had to convince mitchell to become a turney general. it was in the job he sought. he wanted to stay on wall street. he was making a very handsome living. i don't think john was sure how martha might adjust -- his wife -- will fare in washington. she became a great personality and she loved it but it also would destroy their marriage. so it was a close relationship. i remember i worked in the deputy attorney's office i was the associate general and he said you know, there's nobody to will have more influence with this president it than john mitchell, and that was true. he was on a lot of the committees at the white house. he was somebody who would go over and try to give the

president street advice. the closest i ever brought to a hearing how they interacted was when i listened to the tapes on the selection of the two empty chairs on the supreme court. and by that time, mitchell's relationship with nixon has become strained. one of the ways -- and i do this particularly when i do the new edition to blind ambition. my first book i added an addendum -- i added a section because you can't understand watergate without understanding the personality. anybody that thinks personalities don't get in the way and they're became a conflict between john mitchell and john ehrlichman. ehrlichman, another lawyer who was trying to set domestic advice, the only department he had no influence over was justice because of michel's in pact with the president. and this bothered ehrlichman. it didn't bother mitchell

because he had control over it, but with time, and after mistakes were made, let's take again hands worse, they were disastrous nominees for the court. i mean he should have made it. carswell would have never been a very good justice in the best day. and said been more bad recommendations came. this gave ehrlichman tremendous leverage as we will get into in watergate there were even more serious problems where the sort of hard feelings between the two that i gather and i wasn't in the campaign in 68, went back that far where they were at odds on a number of issues came to play and influenced the president and i think hurt the presidency for the full worst. >> host: we are talking with john been, his latest book blind ambition with the rest of the

story that can but in 2009. jay is joining from fort lauderdale florida. welcome to the program. >> guest: thank you. mr. dean, i saw you a couple of years ago when you were doing your last book signing and i wonder if you were coming back again. but by primary question was incidentally of the understand he went to military academy with you. you are aware of the watergate break before it happened. did you for war and the president that it would come to nobody's interest and it can't possibly the democrats' party? >> guest: let me tell you about that. what happened is i was asked because the head of the reelection committee was not terribly familiar with mitchell and cost me to come over and your record in leedy's plans for political intelligence might be.

two of the most amazing meetings i had ever attended in government, liddy was there to make a pitch and set up in the attorney general's office and mitchell planned to come over to run the campaign. and i've listened to the pitch for example he set it all in code names and mr. president, i have plans for example to deal with the antiwar demonstrators which was one of the problems he had been told for example my office called antiwar demonstration because it was government and classified information. we couldn't give it to the campaigns of ahead of their own was curious to what liddy set up and i listened to liddy and he said well general michel, what we can do is we will kidnap the antiwar demonstrators and drug them and takes them below the mexican border. years later i was talking to one of the lawyers who represented

the antiwar leaders and he said what liddy didn't realize is a lot of these guys would have liked to be drugged and taken below the mexican border. but he had other plans for example he was going to hire a chase plane to intercept ground communications between the opponent's campaign plane. i sort of interjected myself as we told in july also have a plan how to get intelligence from the democrats in the miami convention. we are going to do is we have leased a house boat that has a two-way mirror and we will make a film of what is happening inside and we are going to do to get people inside as we have hired some prostitutes and we are going to get them to do what and infiltrates the spots of the miami convention and 72 and gloor them into the